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Log for #openttd on 25th July 2006:
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07:59:19  <Artanicus> A few things I find odd: 1) the maglev trains are classified as electric, and they weigh more than an asiastar.. But since the tracks do all the work, shouldnt the train be classified as maglev instead of electric, and be actually lighter than the average train instead of being extremely heavy? Or is this just a balancing issue?
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08:00:09  <Artanicus> anotyher slight problem is that the gave eventually stops to year 2090 .. The days start to advance more slowly and new companys inagurated in 2090 never become stock-mature
08:00:15  <Artanicus> *game
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08:33:47  <Prof_Frink> BADGERS.
08:34:34  <Bjarni> Prof_Frink: you got a wildlife problem in your house?
08:35:32  <peter1138> MUSHROOMS
08:35:36  <Prof_Frink> Well, an invasion of frogs
08:35:54  <Prof_Frink> The amphibian sort, not the 21-miles-thataway sort
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08:46:44  <valhallazzzw> badger badger badger badger \o/
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09:40:16  <Sacro> moooooooooom, it happened again :|
09:40:19  <Sacro> !logs
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10:02:21  <BurningFeetMan> hi2u
10:03:23  <CIA-5> miham * r5602 /trunk/lang/unfinished/simplified_chinese.txt:
10:03:23  <CIA-5> WebTranslator2 update to 2006-07-25 12:03:06
10:03:23  <CIA-5> simplified_chinese - 549 fixed by Fishingsnow (549)
10:05:25  <RichK67_wrk> woohoo... KUDr_wrk is back :)
10:07:36  <KUDr_wrk> for short time only :(
10:08:47  <KUDr_wrk> short visit before another far trip
10:09:10  <RichK67_wrk> if you get chance, check out the TGP branch... Truelight and Belugas have been improving it (tons)
10:09:56  <KUDr_wrk> ok, i will checkout it to notebook and check later
10:10:11  <RichK67_wrk> ok :)
10:11:06  <RichK67_wrk> could you take a look at what parameters are needed in your routines to make mountainous a bit more zig-zaggy... ie. high mountains, deep V valleys
10:11:41  <KUDr_wrk> like desert?
10:11:56  <KUDr_wrk> you meen transformations?
10:12:34  <RichK67_wrk> i suspect its in the initial p values; have a really high initial oscillation
10:13:05  <KUDr_wrk> roughnes table?
10:13:09  <RichK67_wrk> but if a transformation will do it, that would be great
10:13:13  <RichK67_wrk> yeah
10:13:31  <KUDr_wrk> i don't understand how it should look like
10:13:50  <KUDr_wrk> do u have some hand made example?
10:14:27  <KUDr_wrk> what i have and use (like) is transform that makes "V
10:14:43  <KUDr_wrk> "V" valeys more like "U"
10:15:08  <KUDr_wrk> so you have more flat areas and still high mountains
10:15:18  <RichK67_wrk> what we have at the mo, is a high mountain or ridge, and then a fairly flat low bit between... what i think is wanted is steep rapid switches from mountain (12+) to valley (<3) back to mountain
10:15:25  <KUDr_wrk> looks much more like real terrain
10:16:21  <KUDr_wrk> aha, so more agressive terraform with no erosive forces?
10:16:22  <RichK67_wrk> more to make W and V shapes than smoothed Us... maybe have a blend
10:16:36  <KUDr_wrk> hmm
10:16:38  <RichK67_wrk> yes, fresher younger mountains
10:16:40  <KUDr_wrk> who wants that
10:16:46  <KUDr_wrk> it is unplayable
10:17:05  <KUDr_wrk> and unrealistic to make railroad in such terrain
10:17:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> i thought that is what "roughness" is for? low roughness = U valleys, high roughness = V valleys
10:17:20  <RichK67_wrk> TL/Belugas... but almost always i have someone say mountains arent steep enough
10:17:53  <KUDr_wrk> hmm
10:18:02  <RichK67_wrk> roughness controls the noise on the basic waveform.... more noise = rougher...
10:18:04  <KUDr_wrk> yes, so another roughness
10:18:33  <KUDr_wrk> one more (or two more) lines in the table could solve it probably
10:18:40  <RichK67_wrk> perhaps have current Very Rough as Rough, and make a sharp mountain Very Rough
10:18:42  <KUDr_wrk> did you try to play with it?
10:18:53  <KUDr_wrk> maybe
10:19:10  <KUDr_wrk> but it should be easy for them to play with that table
10:19:16  <KUDr_wrk> and make it as they want
10:19:31  <KUDr_wrk> otherwise they will never be satisfied with the result
10:20:03  <KUDr_wrk> let them play with it
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10:20:22  <RichK67_wrk> as in game it... nope... i personally like the mountains as they are, but others have always said "not very mountainous"
10:20:56  <RichK67_wrk> yeah, in some ways it may be better to have a "custom" line that gets pulled from the .cfg file
10:21:03  <KUDr_wrk> yes, so give them new roughness line
10:21:12  <KUDr_wrk> and they can modify it
10:21:22  <RichK67_wrk> then they  can tweak it themselves, but still have the presets... sounds good to me
10:21:31  <KUDr_wrk> yes
10:21:54  <KUDr_wrk> one config (int array) option
10:22:35  <KUDr_wrk> if the problem is solvable by this table then it is good
10:22:49  <KUDr_wrk> otherwise they must define better what they want
10:22:54  <RichK67_wrk> it may be... im not 100% sure
10:23:57  <KUDr_wrk> they can also want to remove the sine transform
10:24:18  <KUDr_wrk> so the highest and lowest heights will be sharper
10:24:32  <KUDr_wrk> so i need example
10:24:41  <KUDr_wrk> and study it
10:25:06  <KUDr_wrk> or commented profile graph
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10:26:10  <RichK67_wrk> well, i think its fairly simple - a sawtooth look; WVWVWVWVW rather than the (prettier, smoother) look it has now.... we like it, but other miss the zigzags :(
10:26:31  <RichK67_wrk> others = important others ;)
10:29:19  <KUDr_wrk> hmm
10:29:31  <KUDr_wrk> they can use original generator
10:29:57  <KUDr_wrk> TGP was supposed to be more realistic and finer i guess
10:30:29  <RichK67_wrk> i think we can manage spiky mountains; even if its just the default "custom" setting ;)
10:30:38  <KUDr_wrk> ok, i can think about how to parametrize the sine wave transform
10:31:06  <KUDr_wrk> this is the reason why peaks are smoother
10:31:19  <KUDr_wrk> (erosive force)
10:31:21  <RichK67_wrk> ok thanks... TGP is really motoring now
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10:31:57  <KUDr_wrk> but i don't know when i will be back (like 1 to 3 weeks)
10:32:00  <RichK67_wrk> its  the distance between peaks we need to reduce though... try to get it to under 35ish
10:32:20  <KUDr_wrk> aha then it is roghness table
10:32:23  <RichK67_wrk> so it can go: 15 -> 1/2 -> 15 again
10:32:35  <RichK67_wrk> 1/2 = 1 or 2
10:32:47  <KUDr_wrk> hmm
10:33:01  <KUDr_wrk> so big amplitude
10:33:36  <RichK67_wrk> yeah, and rapid primary p, 2nd and 3rd p probably fairly low
10:33:50  <KUDr_wrk> then it is not perlin
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10:33:56  <RichK67_wrk> something like 0.99, 0.25, 0.25
10:34:32  <RichK67_wrk> not perlin? <-- sorry dont understand
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10:43:21  <Bjarni> KUDr_wrk: have you seen the post on the forum about presignals?
10:43:58  <Bjarni> I kind of like the idea to make all signals turn red by default and then actively setting them green if a train reserves a path passed it
10:45:23  <Bjarni> this would allow the trains to slow down in good time at red signals and then accelerate as soon as the path is clear, hence hopefully removing or greatly reducing the number of complete stops in junctions
10:46:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> i thought we already decided to go that way months ago? :)
10:46:46  <Bjarni> good
10:47:08  <Bjarni> it would be nice if you inform me of such issues you take decisions in while I'm not here
10:47:41  <Bjarni> because I never actually heard anybody talking about default red signals in this channel
10:48:14  <Bjarni> might make an issue with YAPF penalty for red signals though
10:49:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> it was thought that the signal stores how many trains intend to go through a signal, and use that as some kind of penalty
10:49:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> but i don't know how far that can be realized
10:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> could make for nice load balancing
10:51:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> there somewhere was a PDF of Celestar that outlined the new signal concept
10:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> but i have not seen any attempts of an implementation yet
10:55:13  <Sacro_> rawr
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10:55:41  <RichK67_wrk> i want to grep for files that contain a pattern, but do not include another pattern... any ideas how i do it?
10:55:51  <RichK67_wrk> help file isnt
10:56:25  <Sacro> Bjarni: we do inform you when your not here :) you just never seem to remember
10:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> err... regexp have some kind of [^X] for words that do not contain X
10:56:49  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: yes
10:57:25  <RichK67_wrk> so grep -E "phrase1^phrase2"??
10:57:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm not sure if that actually works for entire words, or just letters
10:58:07  <Sacro> s/[foo][^bar]// ?
10:58:10  <RichK67_wrk> that was what i thought from reading the regexp info i have
10:58:44  <RichK67_wrk> [foo] will match a single letter of f, o, or o
10:58:57  <RichK67_wrk> not foor
10:59:00  <RichK67_wrk> foo
11:00:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you have foo, and not bar, you could try (foo)([^b]|b[^a]|ba[^r])*
11:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> or something
11:00:34  <RichK67_wrk> ok... ill try
11:00:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> that would still match barfoo though
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11:00:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> so might need a little tweaking
11:00:55  <Sacro> heh
11:01:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> another ( )* around maybe
11:01:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> ( )+ better
11:03:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> or you could look if grep has an option "not matching pattern"...
11:04:05  <RichK67_wrk> duh.. i never thought of that.... of course i checked for that... first thing... granted grep --help isnt much help
11:04:27  <spiff> ^ is the negation operator
11:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> well... you never know ;)
11:04:41  <spiff> as well as the beginning-of-line operator
11:04:55  <spiff> s,operator,anchor,
11:05:03  <RichK67_wrk> spiff: yes, but how do you get it to check a phrase rather than a single character
11:05:50  * spiff checks with mastering regular expressions
11:06:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> i know i fiddled around with such things before, and the way i described above was the only solution i found
11:06:42  <RichK67_wrk> i want to find "Reponse Code", but reject all "Response Code:3030"
11:07:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, then the thing above should work
11:08:06  <spiff> RichK67_wrk: (?!text) in perl, at least. I'll check egrep.
11:08:22  <valhallazzzw> negation in regexps is bad
11:08:27  <valhallazzzw> just don't do it
11:09:55  <Sacro> RichK67_wrk: echo "foo" | grep foo | grep ^bar :)
11:14:24  <Sacro> heh, that doesnt work
11:16:14  <spiff> the ^ is anchor in that context
11:16:39  <spiff> it's only negation in brackets, iirc
11:17:09  <spiff> [^0-9] matches everything but numbers, for example
11:17:33  <RichK67_wrk> which is fine; but I only want to exclude 1 number: 3030
11:18:13  * RichK67_wrk thinks - so much for all-powerful regexp
11:18:35  <spiff> huh?
11:18:50  <spiff> can't you match around?
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11:19:48  <RichK67_wrk> ill find a way, thanks
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11:25:38  <mikk36> fun fun :)
11:33:40  <Sacro> exclude 3030?
11:33:56  <Sacro> if its just on its own... ^(^3030)$
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11:43:12  <RichK67_wrk> no ... its "Response Code:3030"
11:44:07  <RichK67_wrk> (^3030) doesnt work... it doesnt matter now; ive done a kludgey workaround
11:44:10  <RichK67_wrk> thanks
11:44:47  <SpComb> you can only use ^ to negate char sets
11:45:07  <SpComb> you have to do some negative lookahead/beind to match something that doesn't exist
11:46:52  <blathijs> RichK67_wrk: grep -v negates the entire expression?
11:47:18  <Sacro> blathijs: damn you! id just done "man grep" to look for that :)
11:47:24  <RichK67_wrk> dunno - this is GNUtools win grep
11:48:05  <blathijs> Sacro: I didn't have to do man grep for that (though I did do a man to find something to negate a subexpression)
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11:48:43  <Sacro> blathijs: ive spent ages looking at regex sheets, and i suddenly thought that maybe grep would do it
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11:50:01  <SpComb> so indeed, chain two greps
11:50:18  <SpComb> grep foo blaafile | grep -v bar
11:51:00  <blathijs> perhaps you could use (3030){0} to match '3030' exactly 0 times
11:51:05  <blathijs> not sure if that would work, though
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11:58:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> exactly 0 times... that is a very intresting thought ;)
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12:03:25  <RichK67_wrk> SpComb: that will (should) find each line, but i want to exclude any *file* that has 3030, rather than just the line... (and this is in 2500 .txt files, so you can see why i dont want to do this manually ;) )
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12:21:26  <Nickman87> hi all
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12:44:01  <Sacro> hey Nickman87
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12:46:57  <Nickman87> hi :)
12:49:51  <SpComb> blathijs: isn't that essentially a null?
12:51:02  <SpComb> RichK67_wrk: you want a list of the files that have something in them, but also don't have 3030?
12:51:21  <SpComb> perhaps some scripting and for:ing through the files
12:51:37  <blathijs> SpComb: I'm afraid so :-)
12:52:38  <blathijs> yup, it is :-)
12:54:23  <RichK67_wrk> its ok, ive sorted it... ugly solution, but i only needed a solution, not elegance :)
12:54:32  <valhallazzzw> good boy :p
12:56:08  <blathijs> RichK67_wrk: for i in *; if [ \! -z `grep 3030 $i` ]; echo $i; done;
12:56:19  <blathijs> + syntactic sugar
12:56:45  <Sacro> \! ?
12:57:07  <blathijs> Sacro: man [
12:57:12  <spiff> negation
12:57:17  <blathijs> yup
12:57:20  <spiff> blathijs: man [? seriously?
12:57:24  <blathijs> the \ is to prevent bash from doing scary shit
12:57:25  <spiff> haha
12:57:27  <blathijs> spiff: I'm afraid so
12:57:35  <Sacro> blathijs: No manual entry for [
12:57:39  <spiff> blathijs: == man test
12:57:42  <blathijs> matthijs@katherina:~$ which [
12:57:42  <blathijs> /usr/bin/[
12:57:54  <spiff> I thought [ was a shell construct
12:57:59  <Sacro> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 2006-07-09 20:13 /usr/bin/[ -> test
12:58:04  <blathijs> it is in some shells
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12:58:32  <Sacro> hmm, strange, when i type "[", i get "missing ]
12:58:40  * kjetil doesn't see the point in \!
12:58:44  <Sacro> but when i do /usr/bin/[ it says nothing
12:59:23  <blathijs> kjetil: no, I think the intended behaviour was without the !
13:01:58  <RichK67_wrk> blathijs: very nice, but not much use on windows :)
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13:02:26  <blathijs> How to solve a trivial problem:
13:02:36  <blathijs> Step 1: get a decent OS (or at least a decent shell) ;-p
13:03:16  <RichK67_wrk> lol: how to make a trivial problem non-trivial; try to persuade your boss you have the time to do step 1 ;)
13:03:58  <ln-> http://phaser.gfxile.net/best_captcha_ever.png
13:06:31  <peter1138> uh
13:07:04  <spiff> hahaha
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13:11:04  <Bjarni> ln-: it says a4o(something)9
13:11:06  <Bjarni> I think
13:11:18  <Bjarni> but I'm not sure
13:11:35  <Bjarni> luckily they added a button to get a new string :)
13:13:22  <ln-> the new strings aren't any better. :)
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13:16:42  <Belugas> hi there
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13:20:59  <RichK67_wrk> gotta go work
13:21:01  <RichK67_wrk> bye
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13:24:24  <Kaze> hi
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13:51:25  <CIA-5> truelight * r5603 /branches/TGP/tree_cmd.c:
13:51:25  <CIA-5> -Fix: tree placing was really slow because if it couldn't find a place, it kept
13:51:25  <CIA-5> on trying many times. Reduced the times for TG a bit, and even more for the old
13:51:25  <CIA-5> generator, because in most map-types it just never finds a spot. This increases
13:51:25  <CIA-5> map generation speed with a big factor.
13:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> "by" a factor
14:02:33  <CIA-5> truelight * r5604 /branches/TGP/tree_cmd.c: -Fix: redid 5603: there is absolutely no reason to scale the tries of a 16x16 swuare around a tile with the map-size.. the 16x16 block stays 16x16. Yet an other big speed-up :)
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14:22:20  <CIA-5> truelight * r5605 /branches/TGP/ (8 files):
14:22:20  <CIA-5> -Codechange: removed GenerateWorld from misc.c and gave it his own file. This in preperation of Threaded Land Generation
14:22:20  <CIA-5> -Codechange: renamed tgp_gui.c to genworld_gui.c, because it will be the GUI for all generators (not yet, but will be ;))
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16:45:25  <Wolf01> yo
16:47:31  <Nubi> hello
16:47:42  <Nubi> can i override during the game diffucity settings on dedicated server?
16:47:51  <Nubi> i mean openttd.cfg and load from saved game
16:49:54  <peter1138> no
16:53:04  <Frostregen> you could load the game into singleplayer, change the settings, then load back into server
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17:20:10  <Maedhros> has anyone got the Canadian stations set to work in openttd? it's complaining that i don't have "at least pseudo-TTDPatch version 2.5 beta 1"
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17:25:47  <peter1138> and indeed you don't
17:26:02  <peter1138> they do, mostly, work with that check updated
17:26:10  <Sacro> helloooooooo peoples
17:26:26  <peter1138> sacromental
17:26:49  <Sacro> peter...borough
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18:26:26  <Maedhros> well, the answer appears to be more-or-less, "yes", with (or despite) my editing of the grf file :)
18:28:40  <Sacro> Maedhros: you could get OpenTTD to respond Yes, to the question, Are you TTDPatch :)
18:32:37  <CIA-5> tron * r5606 /trunk/water_cmd.c: Replace some magic numbers by proper TrackBits enums and macros
18:37:09  <Tron> newgrf.c:1978ff
18:37:32  <Tron> just change the numbers there to make ottd pretend to be another version of ttdp
18:41:12  <Maedhros> that's an easier way. thanks :)
18:42:02  <Sacro> :O
18:42:19  <Sacro> its a Mr Tron
18:44:33  <Rens2Sea> is it me or are trucks incredible stupid?
18:45:58  <Wolf01> both :)
18:46:49  <Sacro> Wolf01 is stupid, or italian, or both :)
18:46:56  <Wolf01> both
18:48:36  <Rens2Sea> :o
18:48:51  <Rens2Sea> making a huge network with trucks only is kinda impossible then
18:49:41  <valhallasw> Sacro: that's an inefficient query
18:49:57  <valhallasw> (stupid or italian) or (stupid and italian) = stupid or italian
18:50:23  <Rens2Sea> oh that's just great, my oil refinery just exploded :o
18:50:24  <Sacro> valhallasw: hmmm
18:50:40  <Sacro> stupid xor italian, or both
18:50:47  <valhallasw> yes
18:50:54  <valhallasw> but that is just stupid or italian
18:51:01  <valhallasw> which means it's still inefficient
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18:53:22  <Sacro> oh well, bite me :P
18:54:17  * Belugas takes a large chunk of Sacro
18:55:30  * valhallasw takes the rest of Sacro
18:55:41  <Sacro> :(
18:55:56  <Belugas> what??? He's still alive????
19:00:01  <Sacro> just...
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19:07:04  <Belugas> tt-forums.net not found???
19:07:26  <SpComb> your dns is broken
19:08:15  <Belugas> mmm
19:08:29  <Belugas> tx for info
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19:18:34  <CIA-5> tron * r5607 /trunk/roadveh_cmd.c: -Regression: Let a road vehicle only overtake if there is no vehicle close except the two involved
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21:11:59  <Belugas_Gone> nigh all
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21:16:09  <Wolf01> 'night all
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22:15:17  <Brianetta> Rich, your big airport has half the planes landing with the wind
22:16:00  <RichK67> its a swirling vortex around the airport... cant you tell ;)
22:16:53  <RichK67> maybe i should increase the number of crash landings to account for microbursts... :)
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22:25:16  <CIA-5> glx * r5608 /branches/TGP/ (openttd.vcproj openttd_vs80.vcproj): [TGP] - Update MSVC project files
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22:48:15  <Bjarni> <RichK67>	maybe i should increase the number of crash landings to account for microbursts... :) <-- I hate when games get such features since there is really nothing you can do about it. If the airport got a dangerous wind, then the game engine do not support easy access to send all the planes to another airport
22:50:40  <RichK67> i was kidding ;)
22:51:17  <RichK67> (hence the smiley)
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23:17:24  <Brianetta> Why can't I tow an EMU with a diesel shunter?
23:21:27  <RichK67> i dont know... why cant you tow an EMU with a diesel shunter?
23:21:58  <RichK67> :)
23:22:52  <RichK67> well.. im tired... gn
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23:26:22  <BurningFeetMan> Night! Rich!
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