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00:01:06 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.164.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:02:29 *** welterde [welterde@hex.srv.welterde.de] has joined #openttd 00:07:38 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-83-100-255-64.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:09:50 *** orudge` [orudge@c-75-73-67-58.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Goodbye.] 00:42:48 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:54:15 *** NCommander [~mcasadeva@173.234.8.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:33 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:55:59 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-2-56.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:58:00 *** Underline [bb3a7a26@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 00:58:07 <Underline> Hi 00:59:03 <Underline> any Brazilian here? 01:04:22 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-114-179.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:04:34 *** Yexo_ [~Yexo@153-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 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has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:40:28 *** TomyLobo [~foo@port-212-202-171-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 05:46:09 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 05:59:58 *** Sacro [~ben@87.102.5.146] has joined #openttd 06:02:33 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe83de00-38.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 06:05:36 *** elho [elho@psycho.elho.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:05:38 *** elho [elho@psycho.elho.net] has joined #openttd 06:08:08 *** Sacro [~ben@87.102.5.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:12:03 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 06:13:13 *** dafkis [~b@p5B28B6C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:18:59 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:22:48 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e06c3db.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:22:53 <Terkhen> good morning 06:23:09 <Rubidium> mornink Terkhen 06:23:54 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 06:28:01 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:38:10 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 06:52:46 *** SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@zomg.dongues.com] has joined #openttd 07:13:05 <planetmaker> moin 07:13:17 <Rubidium> moi planetmaker 07:16:00 <heffer> moin guys. i will test the grfcodec trunk now 07:21:56 <heffer> Rubidium: the newest trunk builds without any problems again 07:22:04 <heffer> thanks for that 07:22:49 *** Sacro [~ben@87.102.5.146] has joined #openttd 07:32:16 <dihedral> hello 07:37:08 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:38:14 <planetmaker> hm... just noticed this Rubidium "dbg: [misc] Drawing string using newlines with DrawString instead of DrawStringMultiLine. Please notify the developers of this: []" when loading wally's object file 07:38:57 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1DD71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:43:14 <Rubidium> heffer: good 07:43:22 <Rubidium> planetmaker: file a bug report, otherwise it'll be forgotten 07:45:02 *** thvdburgt [~thvdburgt@z037133.its-s.tudelft.nl] has joined #openttd 07:57:32 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 08:05:53 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:07:14 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:09:23 *** Sacro [~ben@87.102.5.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:11:27 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 08:15:42 *** Sacro [~ben@87.102.5.146] has joined #openttd 08:36:48 *** Sacro [~ben@87.102.5.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:37:29 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 08:40:58 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:47:08 *** rTypo [rTypo@pc54.clicknet.iasi.rdsnet.ro] has joined #openttd 08:47:13 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47:14 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:51:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.182.48] has joined #openttd 09:03:24 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:06:01 *** JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has joined #openttd 09:18:38 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:22:07 <fjb> Moin 09:28:05 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 09:29:10 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 09:32:40 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-83-100-255-64.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 09:40:05 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 09:40:42 *** avdg [~Adium@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:46:59 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.187.230] has joined #openttd 09:52:26 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.182.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:55:41 *** avdg [~Adium@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:42 *** fjb is now known as Guest410 10:04:43 *** fjb [~frank@p5485C420.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:06:43 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 10:09:32 *** Guest410 [~frank@p5485DA34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:13:25 *** avdg [~Adium@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 10:14:10 * andythenorth ponders 10:16:07 <andythenorth> when an industry is build in town and has an entrance or gate adjacent to a road tile, it would be nice if there was a road piece connected to the entrance 10:16:25 <andythenorth> players can build one, but it would be nicer if it was automatic 10:17:41 <andythenorth> having road pieces frequently check adjacent tiles is presumably bad? 10:17:52 <Noldo> propably 10:18:13 <andythenorth> what about having industry tiles set a bit in adjacent tiles when built 10:18:18 <andythenorth> ? 10:18:44 <Noldo> you need to do it by issuing a command I think 10:19:06 <andythenorth> and a cb on the industry tile when an neighbouring tile changes? (to deal with destruction / consutruction) 10:19:29 *** LaSeandre [~sean@millsie.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:29 *** welshdragon [~dragon@millsie.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:33 <andythenorth> it would be useful for some station tiles as well 10:20:12 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you've done some work with road tiles? 10:22:02 *** LaSeandre [~sean@millsie.net] has joined #openttd 10:22:03 *** LaSeandre [~sean@millsie.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:27 <Terkhen> a little; only with the building roads code 10:25:01 <andythenorth> I should try and write a proposal, but I don't know how road tiles work at all :) 10:29:16 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:30:44 *** fjb is now known as Guest415 10:30:45 *** fjb [~frank@p5485D5E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:35:43 *** Guest415 [~frank@p5485C420.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:36:16 <Terkhen> and I don't know about industries and callbacks :) 10:38:56 <andythenorth> I kind of do. A bit :) 10:41:02 <Terkhen> :P 10:43:01 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like the wrong approach, though... 10:44:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: better route? 10:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as you can't actually drive into the industry, you might want to override the pavement graphics instead of placing a road bit 10:44:51 <andythenorth> yes, that would be interesting 10:44:55 <andythenorth> more work? 10:47:21 <fjb> I would not do anything to the road. Players interested in such details will place the road bit on their own. It is more important to align the entrance to a possible road and not to the border of a tile. 10:47:22 <planetmaker> that's IMHO the wrong approach ;-) 10:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not afraid about the amount of work, i'm more afraid about runtime complexity, and newgrf collisions (i.e. if you add a road texture to your industry grf, it might not fit the road graphics by the road grf, especially with (potentially) upcoming roadstypes 10:47:41 <planetmaker> as industry messing with the road graphics will glitch in > 50% of the cases 10:47:59 <planetmaker> what Eddi says 10:48:36 <planetmaker> the proper approach - if road awareness is desired - is to check for existing road pieces and build the entrance accordingly 10:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> might also want to check for rail pieces in that case 10:49:43 <planetmaker> :-) 10:49:45 <andythenorth> it's not just road awareness by the industry - it's also having the road tile 'connect' to the entrance 10:50:03 <andythenorth> road awareness I could do already :) 10:50:35 <planetmaker> well... don't provide your own road sprites :-) 10:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what planetmaker means is: if the player places a road towards the industry, make the industry show the entrance at that place 10:50:40 <fjb> I would let the players build the connecting road bit. 10:51:18 <planetmaker> again: what Eddi says ;-) 10:51:59 <fjb> Wich is also not the best idea. Imagine parts of the industry jumping around when new roads are build. 10:52:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if the industries/houses can actually check the roadBITS yet, or only roadTILES 10:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: some houses do that already 10:52:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had houses change directions when i placed a depot 10:54:01 <andythenorth> maybe just let the players do it 10:54:19 <andythenorth> I think it sort of sucks, but not the biggest thing in the world :P 10:54:26 <andythenorth> players do it == no new code 10:54:33 <andythenorth> :D 10:55:15 <fjb> Players who care do it any way. Others just don't care. 10:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, like i said, i'd love to see rail entrances into industries 10:56:14 <andythenorth> what actual tracks? 10:56:18 <andythenorth> in the industry tiles? 10:57:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, if a rail is placed towards the industry, add rail tracks on the industry area, possibly leading into warehouses 10:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (obviously graphical only) 10:57:48 <andythenorth> isn't that what ISR is for? :o 10:57:52 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, question is: which types of rail? 10:57:59 *** Klanticus [~quassel@200-161-120-132.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #openttd 10:58:21 <andythenorth> I've left gaps in some FIRS industries to support routes 'inside' them 10:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: generic ones. 10:58:29 <andythenorth> narrow guage? 10:58:32 <andythenorth> electrified? 10:58:35 <andythenorth> third rail? 10:58:39 <andythenorth> UKRS finescale? 10:58:41 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.10.82.121] has joined #openttd 10:58:49 <andythenorth> ISR is the solution :) 10:58:57 * andythenorth wishes we had the source to ISR available 10:59:05 <andythenorth> it's not in the zip and I just missed it? 10:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if the graphics don't match, the player can opt to not build such a connection 10:59:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you can ask for it. They MUST provide it. 10:59:32 <planetmaker> It's GPL. 10:59:40 <andythenorth> I know. I'll pm mart3p 11:00:00 <planetmaker> I fear though that the source is somewhat a de-compiled newgrf. 11:01:03 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I guess that's then a fancy for something > 1.0 11:01:52 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I hope it's more than that :P 11:01:58 <andythenorth> shame otherwise 11:29:01 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:32:38 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-31-26.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 11:36:13 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:49:25 *** GecK [Geck@pro75-3-82-229-184-63.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 11:49:28 <GecK> hello 11:50:55 *** avdg1 [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:54:01 *** avdg [~Adium@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:05:40 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:f4f7:5ca8:6636:d3a4] has joined #openttd 12:05:43 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:29:11 *** LaSeandre_ [~LaSeandre@5e0e0bec.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 12:30:08 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8f069.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:47:52 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:51:03 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 12:52:10 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 13:09:33 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has quit [Quit: more listen, more understand, more know] 13:12:28 * andythenorth ponders windmills 13:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> pre-industrial water mills might be interesting, but only in scenarios that contain rivers... 13:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> before the steam engine, water was the main source of power 13:14:33 <andythenorth> there's a windmill in FIRS 13:14:42 <andythenorth> the issue is that it needs to be consolidated with the bakery 13:14:59 <andythenorth> and the layout sizes are rather different :o 13:15:31 <andythenorth> I am defeated by patching the game to handle this with cb28 13:15:33 <Eddi|zuHause> a windmill shouldn't be significantly larger than a lighthouse 13:15:42 <andythenorth> exactly :) 13:15:45 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-234-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 13:15:51 <andythenorth> the bakery has 2x2 or large layouts 13:16:31 <andythenorth> the largest is something like 4x2 13:16:38 <Wolf01> hello 13:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm starting to think these early industries only make sense if you have production caps 13:18:56 <andythenorth> some have lower production ratios ;) 13:19:09 <andythenorth> but I'm finding them a bit irritating to produce 13:20:10 <andythenorth> they're small and it's hard to find source imagery 13:20:19 <andythenorth> :P 13:20:40 *** Phoenix_the_II [ralph@home.deboom.biz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that might be the wrong way round. industrial production tends to produce more "waste" than manual production, but the overall capacity is several magnitudes higher 13:22:22 <andythenorth> yes indeed, but can you propose a viable alternative solution in gameplay? ;) 13:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, you can limit the output. like "can only process 120 items per month" 13:23:26 <andythenorth> 'stockpiling' 13:23:35 <andythenorth> stockpiling is almost universally loathed 13:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no, stockpile limit is incoming cargo 13:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: still accept incoming cargo, but produce nothing 13:24:25 <andythenorth> I'd need alternative code for the 'turn off limits' parameter which would be demanded :o 13:24:35 <andythenorth> what would the alternative be? 13:25:09 <andythenorth> configurable limit using parameter? 13:25:17 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:25:19 <andythenorth> i.e. 0->65k ? 13:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and this would be only for the small early manufacturing chains 13:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> not for the later industrial chains 13:26:56 <andythenorth> why would the earlier ones be limited but later ones ~ infinite capacity 13:26:59 <andythenorth> ? 13:27:05 <andythenorth> I open to the idea btw 13:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there's an intrinsic game limit anyway 13:27:31 <andythenorth> planetmaker opinions ^ 13:27:33 <andythenorth> ? 13:28:23 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you want to limit the throughput? 13:28:34 <planetmaker> not a linear relation input -> output? Na... 13:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in my imagination, the gameplay incentive for early startes would then be to reroute their existing transports to the larger industries once they apppear 13:28:37 <planetmaker> contra! 13:31:50 <planetmaker> It basically would mean that you again have to constantly re-arange your network 13:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that was the main problem in pre-industrial craftsmanship. one man can only do so much. 13:32:09 <planetmaker> Realism -/-> fun 13:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but unrealism --> useless duplication 13:32:44 <planetmaker> how so? 13:32:52 <planetmaker> where do you see a duplication? 13:33:17 <planetmaker> You could "just" upgrade the graphics over time, from say a manual forge to an industry 13:33:22 <planetmaker> using animation 13:33:35 <Eddi|zuHause> now that's an extremely silly idea 13:33:58 <planetmaker> It's gameplay wise an extremely silly idea to constantly force the player to swap the industry to deliver to 13:34:13 <Eddi|zuHause> a "manual" forge is much smaller than a steel mill 13:34:25 <andythenorth> forge is a bad example :) 13:34:31 <andythenorth> there will be a separate forge and steel mill 13:34:40 <andythenorth> grain mill is a better example :) 13:34:48 <andythenorth> hmm no actually 13:35:13 <andythenorth> the issue of production for early industry is being conflated with industry layouts question :) 13:37:16 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but that is the only problem. And that is imho much less severe than swapping industries 13:37:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i just mean, a production cap would be a definite incentive to include newly created industries into the network 13:37:37 <andythenorth> so will better production ratio 13:37:40 <Belugas> hello 13:37:41 <andythenorth> I hope 13:37:46 <andythenorth> haven't tested it yet :P 13:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there is no "swapping" involved. the old industry will still function the same way 13:39:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: mind you, we are talking about a time where the majority of transport was being done by horse carts 13:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need to create a new network for the upcoming railways anyway 13:40:41 *** roboboywi [~Leo@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 13:40:50 <roboboywi> hello 13:43:07 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:44:09 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, exactly. And you basically want that the network constantly needs to look for the newest industry type where things can be dumped 13:44:15 <planetmaker> which is... boring 13:44:32 <planetmaker> it means I have to constantly revise the routes of my vehicles 13:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's not "constantly" a new industry type coming up 13:44:47 <planetmaker> still 13:44:56 <planetmaker> An industry should silently upgrade 13:45:05 <andythenorth> nah 13:45:07 <andythenorth> that won't happen 13:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's not worse than "constantly" a new engine type with a higher speed limit 13:45:22 *** rTypo [rTypo@pc54.clicknet.iasi.rdsnet.ro] has quit [] 13:45:36 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, of course. That is easily solved by autoreplace. Two clicks. Done. Network wide 13:46:02 <planetmaker> Changing all orders to a new steel production plant for the dozens of ore transports: great pain 13:46:13 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that's what will happen for steel 13:46:15 <andythenorth> for certain chains, there will arrive new, (more efficient) destinations for cargo 13:46:19 * roboboywi leaves win3.11 for windows 7 13:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if you don't want the industry chains to change, start in 1950 13:46:29 <andythenorth> the old ones will remain open 13:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> or 2050 13:46:45 <andythenorth> rerouting is up to the player, it's an option 13:47:11 <planetmaker> helau to micromanagement in a screwed up time line 13:47:16 <andythenorth> we won't close any old industries (except maybe a special case...guano mine) 13:47:37 *** bryjen [~bryjen@63.147.94.149] has joined #openttd 13:47:39 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 13:48:05 <planetmaker> whatever it is, I strongly like to discourage production caps. 13:48:09 <andythenorth> me too :) 13:48:23 <planetmaker> Efficiency is a point which might give incentive. 13:48:30 <andythenorth> cap will inevitably create a mini-deluge of requests for a parameter 13:48:35 <andythenorth> it happened once already with supplies 13:48:55 * andythenorth applies 'go see' method, rather than arguing in abstract 13:49:02 * andythenorth -> TT Foundry site 13:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there's nothing wrong with planning this parameter in advance ;) 13:49:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i just mean, production caps would be something less annoying than stockpile limits, but still effective. 13:50:13 <planetmaker> production efficiency is IMHO enough 13:50:21 <andythenorth> the only industry chain that is affected by this specific question is iron ore -> metal 13:50:37 <planetmaker> having a max. production as an option... well, if it makes people happy 13:50:45 <andythenorth> and maybe, if added, a lime works which would be early cement plant, but I can't be bothered with that :) 13:51:13 <andythenorth> I researched steel production. Finery forges were significantly less efficient than bessemer and similar later furnaces 13:51:28 <andythenorth> so lower production ratio is valid for both gameplay and reality :) 13:51:30 <andythenorth> we all win :) 13:52:16 <andythenorth> that only leaves a new question I hadn't thought of: lower production (via limit or ratio) for industries in earlier centuries 13:52:26 <andythenorth> i.e. efficiency could increase over time 13:52:42 <andythenorth> I don't think it's necessary 13:53:07 <andythenorth> in early games, production will be limited by how many horse carts or ships can deliver 13:53:33 <andythenorth> and there won't be much primary production on a typical map as ENSP / FMSP won't be widely available, or quick to transport 13:53:52 * andythenorth ponders 13:54:41 <andythenorth> so for example, paper mill could be limited / inefficient in 843AD 13:54:54 <andythenorth> and uncapped / more efficient by 1930 14:00:39 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-114-117.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:02:51 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-251-119.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 14:02:54 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 14:06:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: resp. restricting some layouts by time.... 14:07:40 <andythenorth> do you think it's acceptable for the player to be shown a 'try again' message if game picks a not-allowed layout? 14:08:04 <andythenorth> when funding an industry 14:09:06 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1b59c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 14:15:39 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-251-119.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:17:50 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-36-182.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 14:17:53 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 14:22:58 <planetmaker> hm 14:23:10 <planetmaker> Would the game do that and not automatically pick another layout? 14:23:31 <Belugas> exhausted, and the day has merely started 14:24:06 * planetmaker gives Belugas one of the "gevulde koeken" which are here on my desk 14:24:30 <Rubidium> sounds awkwardly Dutch to me 14:25:13 <Belugas> wake up pills? boost dinks? I TAKE THEM ALL!!! 14:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like cookies to me 14:25:30 <LaSeandre_> dutch cookies? 14:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> although i have only heard of "danish cookies"... 14:26:14 <Rubidium> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gevulde_koek 14:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but you do realize that prague locates in the opposite direction :p 14:27:14 <andythenorth> planetmaker: game doesn't automatically pick another layout 14:27:22 <andythenorth> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4131 14:27:34 <andythenorth> and even if trunk is updated, I guess I should consider legacy players 14:29:22 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-36-182.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:31:21 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-166-38.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 14:31:24 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 14:33:17 *** LaSeandre_ [~LaSeandre@5e0e0bec.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:33:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, that'd be somewhat annoying, yes 14:34:32 <planetmaker> well, if trunk is feature-enhanced, then it's ok for legacy players to get the message. 14:34:41 <andythenorth> that's quite a big if... 14:35:03 <andythenorth> :) 14:35:16 <andythenorth> other options would be: 14:35:38 <andythenorth> - live with redundant industries in the minimap (same cargo in / out) 14:35:43 <andythenorth> - remove some industries 14:36:54 *** LaSeandre_ [~LaSeandre@5e0e0bec.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 14:36:57 <planetmaker> Actually I'd remove industries :-) 14:37:07 <planetmaker> or... de-activate them. For now 14:37:16 <planetmaker> Depending upon the economy setting one or the other could be chosen 14:38:59 <planetmaker> Rubidium, sure the 'gevulde koeken' are from a Dutch supermarket :-) Going to one is something I usually do when time allows when I'm in NL 14:39:21 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:05 <Rubidium> you should just go to your local Lidl/Aldi and ask for it. Maybe they can get it, after all it's sold in Aldi/Lidl's over here 14:40:19 <andythenorth> I favour removing the industries too. It's trivial :) 14:41:29 <__ln__> does Lidl deliver things per order like that? 14:42:02 *** perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 14:43:25 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 14:44:39 <planetmaker> Rubidium, maybe. But then I boycott at least Lidl for their mal-treatment of their employees 14:46:12 *** ar3k [~ident@87-239-75-101.internetia.net.pl] has joined #openttd 15:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'm sure i ranted about this "greatest" guy before... 15:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling he's constantly asking about ways to "cheat without cheating" 15:00:43 <planetmaker> :-D 15:01:26 * andythenorth needs to power some LEDs 15:01:32 <andythenorth> for Lego purposes 15:01:44 <andythenorth> connecting them directly to the battery box may be a bad strategy :P 15:01:55 <planetmaker> :-) 15:01:59 <planetmaker> Depends 15:02:09 <planetmaker> But I'd add some resistors 15:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> LEDs tend to need a fixed voltage 15:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> everything else is fairly irrelevant 15:02:41 <planetmaker> not quite. LEDs are current-driven 15:02:56 <planetmaker> which is the important thing there 15:03:01 <andythenorth> and I may connect several in series 15:03:10 * andythenorth finds electronics boring :P 15:03:17 <planetmaker> http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz <-- andythenorth 15:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: hm.. that doesn't seem to match what i learned about LEDs 15:04:14 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: maybe but the important part is current not voltage :) 15:04:28 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, they're ohm elements. But the current mostly defines their brightness as their U-I curve is usually quite steep 15:05:00 <planetmaker> and over-current is what destroys them, not over-voltage ;-) 15:05:22 <planetmaker> if you ever get a current source ;-) 15:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but batteries are voltage-sources 15:07:11 <planetmaker> still, you want a current limitation for your LEDs. The voltage is not that important 15:07:38 <planetmaker> let's say: I tried ;-) 15:10:50 <planetmaker> http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/245333/LUCKY-LIGHT/GB-336EGW.html <-- e.g. see there 15:11:03 <planetmaker> The permissible voltage range is HUGE compared to the permissible current range 15:13:01 <planetmaker> thus brightness in the usual LED lamps is usually controlled by a variable resistor where the minimum resistance gives the maximum permissible current for the max. voltage 15:13:16 <andythenorth> if there are one or two motors on the same circuit, do I need to consider that? 15:13:33 <planetmaker> depends. 15:13:41 <andythenorth> oh, and the power varies, not sure if by pulse or voltage 15:13:52 <planetmaker> you won't have constant illumination then, depending upon the motors' load 15:14:00 <andythenorth> but the lego trains have a range of available speeds... 15:14:22 <andythenorth> I think one of them uses pulse power to regulate speed, the other probably uses variable voltage 15:14:42 <planetmaker> LED + pulse is fine. Voltage variation... well. you have certain requirements there 15:15:13 <andythenorth> basically if the resistors are in series with the LEDs, the LEDs should be fine. 15:15:14 <andythenorth> ? 15:15:14 <planetmaker> LED + pulse is a nice way to actually determine brightness. Using that you can easily overdrive LEDs - for microseconds 15:15:32 <andythenorth> wonder what happens when the motor stalls. That's normally a high current situation? 15:16:10 <andythenorth> '] 15:16:11 <planetmaker> depends upon your setup ;-) 15:16:45 <andythenorth> ^ the baby is hitting the keys 15:16:48 <andythenorth> :P 15:18:55 * andythenorth ponders FIRS wholesale market 15:26:43 <Belugas> :) 15:27:04 <Belugas> at home, if it's not baby, it's kitty ;) 15:27:16 <Belugas> granted, baby is not baby anymore... 15:28:39 <andythenorth> the wh 15:28:42 <andythenorth> meh 15:29:36 <andythenorth> the wholesale market exists so there's somewhere to take livestock before the Meat Packer is available 15:29:36 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=point_5_release#wholesale_market 15:30:13 *** roboboywi [~Leo@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:31:46 <andythenorth> wonder if it's needed :P 15:32:26 <planetmaker> :-D 15:32:40 <planetmaker> well, no lifestock service in early times would be sad. 15:33:07 <planetmaker> Though I found an interesting quirk: not all road vehicle sets support early lifestock transports. Which was a bit of a hassle 15:34:12 <andythenorth> I think it's needed 15:34:16 <andythenorth> I'm just not sure how to make it work 15:34:36 <andythenorth> also after a certain date, the Meat Packer should be located much closer to the livestock farming areas 15:35:23 <planetmaker> why? 15:36:08 <andythenorth> reality :P 15:36:24 <andythenorth> the days of long distance live animal transport are gone :) 15:37:02 <andythenorth> highly mechanised packing allowed abbatoirs to locate much closer to farms (also reducing transport cost and complying with animal welfare regulations) 15:37:34 <andythenorth> also, it would help reduce the regular demand to train set authors to provide high-speed cattle cars :P 15:38:16 <planetmaker> this game is about transport, though... 15:38:29 <andythenorth> trucks :) 15:38:50 <planetmaker> and then you enforce the meat packer close to a farm. And what do people do? Transport animals all across the map to the meat packer next to the other farm cluster 15:39:01 <planetmaker> Would be pointless to spend code on that ;-) 15:39:09 <andythenorth> yup 15:39:27 <andythenorth> I'm not going to do it. I 'should', but I won't :P 15:39:47 <planetmaker> that distance just uses a different scale :-P 15:44:25 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 15:48:15 <andythenorth> not sure whether to (1) keep wholesale market as separate industry, with lower efficiency than meat packer.... 15:48:15 *** dafkis [~b@p5B28B6C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:48:33 <andythenorth> or (2) make it one industry which changes graphics at certain point in time 15:48:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^ 15:48:49 <planetmaker> hm... 15:49:30 <andythenorth> I'm preferring 1 15:49:34 <planetmaker> the wholesale market was first, meat packer comes later, right? 15:49:37 <andythenorth> yup 15:49:50 <planetmaker> then do 1) :-) 15:50:00 <andythenorth> wholesale market also provides acceptance of fruit & veg 15:50:19 <planetmaker> there's nothing else before the meat packer? 15:50:29 <andythenorth> not for livestock 15:50:30 <planetmaker> why... not remove lifestock from the wholesale market 15:50:40 <andythenorth> could do tannery -> goods :0 15:50:41 <planetmaker> and have the 'meat packer' renamed to butcher. Or so 15:50:59 <andythenorth> could do 'stockyard & tannery' 15:51:43 *** dafkis is now known as davis 15:51:44 <planetmaker> would stockyard fit the thing in early times? But yes, that sounds not like a bad idea 15:52:01 <planetmaker> the wholesale market could still accept food, goods, vegies 15:52:15 <planetmaker> hm... 15:52:35 <planetmaker> it produces food. Milk 15:53:23 <planetmaker> the longer I think the more it duplicates the grocery / supermarket 15:53:36 <planetmaker> stockyard + tannery is better :-) 15:54:13 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the grocery / supermarket *accept* food :) 15:54:16 <planetmaker> the wholesale market as it's now (is it drawn?) could just be another layout for a supermarket 15:54:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes :-) 15:54:23 <andythenorth> something has to produce it :) 15:54:34 <planetmaker> the stockyard ;-) 15:54:35 <andythenorth> the wholesale market currently is a food producer 15:54:48 <andythenorth> I'll try it 15:54:59 <planetmaker> could supermarkets accept fruits directly? 15:55:02 <andythenorth> leaves a question about destination for fruit + veg 15:55:04 <andythenorth> oh 15:55:06 <andythenorth> :) 15:55:22 <planetmaker> also, of course, the distillery 15:55:42 <planetmaker> just the difference between solid and liqud :-P 15:55:47 <andythenorth> all fruit == beer? :P 15:55:53 <planetmaker> :-D 15:55:56 <planetmaker> whiskey! 15:56:09 <andythenorth> cider! 15:56:17 <planetmaker> port 15:56:23 <andythenorth> in some parts of the UK, cider was the staple food stuff for farm workers 15:56:29 <andythenorth> they didn't really eat 15:56:34 <planetmaker> :-D 15:57:13 <planetmaker> hm... and again we agreed to change industries :-P 15:58:03 <andythenorth> hmm indeed 15:58:28 <planetmaker> actually...: just rename the industry :-) 15:58:40 <planetmaker> question though is: what do they do with food? 15:58:46 <planetmaker> s/food/fruit/? 15:59:06 <andythenorth> not sure 15:59:20 <planetmaker> hm... Can you keep the layout of the industry? 15:59:34 <planetmaker> when doing wholesale market -> stockyard? 15:59:44 <andythenorth> well it's not drawn at all yet :) 16:00:12 <planetmaker> well. As long as the tile layout as it's currently coded remains valid, a change will not be fatal 16:00:26 <planetmaker> even if you change acceptance 16:00:30 <andythenorth> it's just a 2x2 square, which happens to be fine for a market 16:00:39 <andythenorth> but anyway, I think we broke 0.4 compatibility some time ago :P 16:01:14 <planetmaker> did you? hm 16:01:29 <planetmaker> 2x2 is also fine for a stockyard... 16:01:40 <planetmaker> at least as _one_ layout ;-) 16:02:05 <andythenorth> I'm not sure both Meat Packer and Stockyard are justified 16:02:17 <andythenorth> I wonder about making them one and the same 16:02:30 <andythenorth> the acceptance and production ratios would be ok 16:02:50 <andythenorth> that could leave wholesale market as some kind of food processor for fruit + veg 16:02:56 <planetmaker> could be. Call it stockyard then :-) 16:03:21 <planetmaker> I always found 'meat packer' somewhat... dunno... not a nice name 16:04:06 <planetmaker> I didn't know stockyard until today but it sounds nicer 16:04:12 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:23 <andythenorth> better than 'slaughterhouse' :P 16:04:50 <andythenorth> so only fruit & remains to deal with 16:05:54 <andythenorth> irl both fruit->shop and fruit->processor are valid 16:06:18 <Rubidium> sorry, but my processor really needs electrons 16:06:40 <andythenorth> :P 16:06:47 * andythenorth considers that cargo again 16:06:54 <andythenorth> do towns also need electrons? 16:07:02 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, the amount of electrons actually moving into the processor is minimal 16:07:08 <andythenorth> electrons don't actually move (very far), right? 16:07:13 <andythenorth> they just wobble a bit 16:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, although the movement is probably higher with DC than with AC 16:08:18 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-83-100-255-64.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:09:23 <planetmaker> IIRC the speed was of the order of mm/s 16:09:45 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packing_house 16:10:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth, IMHO there's nothing wrong with allowing fruits to be delivered both, to a shop and some processing facility (e.g. distillery) 16:10:41 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7485A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:45 <planetmaker> where the distillery then produces some liquid which again can go to a shop 16:11:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7485A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:11:05 <planetmaker> (saves me to define which liquid :-P) 16:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, the size of the processor is also in the order of mm ;) 16:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> also, processors are optimised to cause as little current as possible 16:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause> because current == heat 16:14:50 <planetmaker> yes. 16:15:02 <planetmaker> But there's two things going in: the number of electrons as well as their speed 16:15:06 * andythenorth is baffled by fruit & veg :D 16:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> current is caused by intrinsic capacities (e.g. parallel connections), and basically mean less processor speed 16:15:13 <planetmaker> speed ~ voltage. Number ~ size 16:15:16 <andythenorth> "remove it" :P 16:15:33 <planetmaker> no way, andythenorth 16:16:02 <andythenorth> violates http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1462 :P 16:16:22 <planetmaker> independent of that. It's a fun cargo 16:16:29 <andythenorth> yes 16:16:29 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:16:38 <andythenorth> lets think real life.... 16:16:39 <planetmaker> and I coded it already for OpenGFX+trains ;-) 16:16:54 <andythenorth> fruit == citrus, apples, pears etc 16:17:02 <planetmaker> grapes 16:17:04 <andythenorth> also, olives & grapes 16:17:14 <andythenorth> veg = root crops, salad etc 16:17:49 <planetmaker> I never understood why you called it Fruit + _vegetables_ 16:17:56 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd 16:18:00 <planetmaker> any place where the vegetable aspect is used? 16:18:02 <andythenorth> can't remember 16:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> at least with combinging them, you don't have problems with the classification of tomatos :p 16:18:16 <andythenorth> in railroad tycoon 3 there was an equivalent cargo "Produce" 16:18:20 <andythenorth> maybe I copied that :P 16:18:35 <andythenorth> also, why leave carrots out of the game :P 16:19:09 <andythenorth> potatoes -> distillery -> vodka 16:19:17 <Eddi|zuHause> # what do they need such good eyesight for anyway... 16:19:23 <planetmaker> well. Same could do with just fruit, andythenorth 16:21:38 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e06c3db.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:24:17 *** davis [~b@p5B28B6C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:30:48 <planetmaker> andy, is there already a sugar refinery? 16:32:43 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:33:06 <andythenorth> yes 16:33:10 <andythenorth> it's a green block :P 16:34:04 <planetmaker> I just drew the cargo chain in the agriculture / food sector 16:34:24 <planetmaker> I wonder whether the arable farm should not produce RSGR but rather fibre crops 16:34:38 <planetmaker> It'd allow for another branch in the industry sector 16:34:57 <planetmaker> fibre crops could be delivered to the ethanol plant 16:35:11 <planetmaker> and als to the textile mill 16:35:31 <planetmaker> hm... not the latter 16:36:36 <andythenorth> are fibre crops ~= cotton? 16:36:36 <planetmaker> or it could deliver them to the bio powerplant ;-) 16:36:43 <planetmaker> not quite 16:36:44 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f6324.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:36:52 <andythenorth> what are they? 16:37:05 <andythenorth> hemp? sisal? 16:37:06 <planetmaker> fibre crops is like henf 16:37:09 <planetmaker> yes 16:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hemp is also fibre, isn't it? 16:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (if that's the correct name) 16:38:01 <andythenorth> planetmaker: explain more? 16:38:55 <planetmaker> it currently looks like two nearly distinct industry sets: agriculture on the one side. Mining-related industries on the other 16:39:01 <planetmaker> Both share nearly nothing 16:39:10 <andythenorth> yup 16:40:02 <planetmaker> actually they DO share nothing. Except via some supplies. But no other cross-"contamination" 16:40:42 <planetmaker> I just wonder whether it might be interesting to have at least some other link 16:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is entirely "realistic", isn't it? 16:41:07 <Eddi|zuHause> how should you link them? throwing apples into furnaces? 16:41:08 <planetmaker> Well. Rubber. Ethanol. 16:41:31 <planetmaker> oil 16:41:42 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:41:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker: rubber remains a possibility in some economy 16:42:04 <andythenorth> ethanol will be in 0.5 :) 16:42:12 <andythenorth> I'm not sure how else to link them? 16:42:16 <planetmaker> stockyard could accept wood 16:42:27 <planetmaker> or wood products 16:42:35 <andythenorth> they are already linked via FMSP 16:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> nowadays, rubber is mostly synthetical. and even before, "rubber plantations" don't have a lot in common with other agricultural industries 16:42:39 <planetmaker> s/stockyard/tannery 16:42:48 <andythenorth> "most of our food is oil" 16:42:57 <andythenorth> petrol -> machine shop -> farms 16:43:17 <planetmaker> I meant oil from oil seeds like rhapsody(?) etc 16:43:21 <planetmaker> sun flowers 16:43:31 <planetmaker> ethanol from grain 16:43:59 *** avdg1 [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> there's probably an interesting field of research: the agriculture of Cuba after it's oil supplies from "brotherstates" ran dry in the 1990's 16:44:11 <planetmaker> Agriculture currently is nearly alway X->Y-(FOOD)->Shop 16:44:22 <andythenorth> the ethanol plant will adjust that 16:44:32 <andythenorth> I think that's kind of how rl works though also? 16:44:43 <planetmaker> and that them is exploited 7 times 16:44:48 <planetmaker> *theme 16:45:06 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what's missing with food is a minimum requirement for towns in order to sustain themselves 16:45:11 <andythenorth> yup 16:45:16 <andythenorth> TownControl :) 16:45:27 <andythenorth> planetmaker: cotton / wool -> goods 16:45:42 * andythenorth lists farm cargos 16:45:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes. the only exception 16:45:57 <planetmaker> frvg, cttn, grai, rsgr, lvst, milk, wool, fish 16:46:14 <andythenorth> livestock; fruit & veg; sugar, grain, milk -> food 16:46:20 <andythenorth> fish is from the sea ;) 16:46:25 <planetmaker> same thing ;-) 16:46:27 <andythenorth> but fish -> food 16:46:35 <andythenorth> wool / cttn -> goods 16:46:40 <andythenorth> hmm 16:46:43 <planetmaker> It applies to the theme X -> Y -> food 16:46:49 <andythenorth> xxx -> food does kind of dominate 16:47:05 <planetmaker> especially the arable farm has both chains X -> Y -> food 16:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> industries producing livestock, wool or milk might be secondary industries requiring grain and frvg as input 16:47:06 <Belugas> fish -> oil -> medecine -> goods 16:47:29 <Belugas> fish -> skin -> clothing -> goods 16:47:43 <andythenorth> is the problem that food has no purpose? 16:47:51 <andythenorth> I don't really bother transporting it 16:47:57 <andythenorth> except in tropic 16:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, imho that's the main problem 16:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause> only mail is worse than that... 16:48:32 <planetmaker> Not really. But I'd like to see the agriculture line have some impact on the other parts, too 16:49:01 <planetmaker> to not have 7x exactly the same thing just differently named 16:49:26 <planetmaker> like for example adding wood to the tannery ;-) 16:50:05 <planetmaker> or oil seeds or fibre crops to the arable farm 16:50:16 <planetmaker> it gives a more integrated economy 16:52:27 <andythenorth> but ultimately most of the alternatives will just end in 'goods' no? 16:52:28 <planetmaker> and indeed the harbour could produce both, oil and FOOD ;-) 16:52:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes 16:52:35 <andythenorth> do you bother transporting goods? 16:52:37 <andythenorth> I don't 16:52:40 <andythenorth> it's pointless :P 16:53:10 <planetmaker> I bother to transport things through the whole chain 16:53:17 <andythenorth> in fact all non-PAX town cargos are pointless 16:53:23 <planetmaker> And it's fun if the chain is not just two hops but branches 16:53:30 <andythenorth> I only transport goods if the vehicle sprites are fun :D 16:53:31 <planetmaker> That makes then other industries also interesting 16:53:56 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:54:10 <planetmaker> that argument is your usual killer. But that argument applies to any cargo 16:54:19 <andythenorth> I think (a) farm -> food cargos might be over-represented and (b) there is a fundamental problem with town cargos 16:54:20 <andythenorth> :) 16:54:33 <andythenorth> see how easy it is to start tweaking cargo chains :P 16:54:44 *** rTypo [rTypo@pc54.clicknet.iasi.rdsnet.ro] has joined #openttd 16:54:54 * fjb is transporting goods and foot but almost never mail. 16:55:19 <fjb> / food 16:55:32 <planetmaker> yep, same here 16:55:37 <andythenorth> new cargo: 'feet' 16:55:52 <planetmaker> ew 16:55:57 <fjb> Shoes. 16:56:00 *** avdg [~avdg@94-227-100-192.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:56:55 <fjb> Mail becomes a bit more interesting with cargodist. 16:57:36 <planetmaker> yes. Mail is dead boring 16:58:37 <fjb> Like passengers. 16:58:45 <Belugas> yeah... always bills.. no checks... 16:58:56 <fjb> Yes. :-( 16:59:26 <Belugas> hoo... that could be interesting... new cargo: bills/checks... 17:00:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I was thinking straw -> building materials (thatch) 17:01:07 <fjb> We would have to convince Irwe to draw a tax office. 17:01:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth, also an interesting thing. But straw is fibre crops 17:01:49 <planetmaker> :-) 17:02:08 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED67292.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:02:59 *** Geck_ [Geck@pro75-3-82-229-184-63.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd 17:03:42 <Rubidium> fjb: a tax office needs some special code so *if* you destroy one you're screwed tax-wise :) 17:04:06 <fjb> :-) 17:04:19 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:04:31 <andythenorth> planetmaker: consolidate FRVG + RSGR to 'crops' ? 17:04:40 <fjb> New cargo: tax office terrorists. 17:05:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth, no, that would just introduce a completely new cargo. 17:05:15 <planetmaker> Fruit and fibre crops or oil seeds is fine enough for everything needed IMHO 17:05:34 <planetmaker> at least by cargo label. By name you might call the fibre crops differently. Straw, if you like 17:05:37 <Rubidium> maybe just consolidate a bit more: till you end with someones and stuff 17:05:46 <planetmaker> :-D 17:05:49 <andythenorth> I'm not 100% convinced on fibre crops. 17:05:58 <andythenorth> where do they go / what do they produce? 17:05:58 <planetmaker> oil seeds? 17:06:09 <Rubidium> delivering fibre to towns should increase the waste production of the town 17:06:10 <planetmaker> they go - as you proposed - to the building yard 17:06:54 <planetmaker> what does produce manufact. supplies? that could accept it, too 17:06:57 *** trebuchet [~Trebuchet@69.51.104.87] has joined #openttd 17:07:28 <andythenorth> fibre -> plastics plant? 17:07:37 <andythenorth> significant plant component in some plastics... 17:07:53 *** GecK [Geck@pro75-3-82-229-184-63.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:09:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: do we need to reject http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1462 17:09:34 <andythenorth> ? 17:11:03 <planetmaker> hm. No, we need a bad conciousness 17:11:20 <andythenorth> I would be leaving cargo chains alone for now 17:11:29 <andythenorth> I think there are too many farm->food cargos 17:11:35 <andythenorth> but I need to play a test game or so 17:11:41 <andythenorth> I haven't played FIRS for ages 17:12:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth, it could indeed go to the plastics plant. The industry would just need a new name 17:12:38 <planetmaker> And it's not a change which breaks anything. And that's what 1462 is about 17:12:47 <planetmaker> This is changing things which are not there 17:13:00 <planetmaker> And 'just' renaming them somewhat 17:13:50 <andythenorth> what would we rename? 17:14:22 <planetmaker> plastics plant does not sound right anymore, if it accepts firbre crops 17:14:31 <planetmaker> additionally 17:15:03 <planetmaker> it's a thing which produces 'stuff' :-P 17:16:07 <andythenorth> would we add fibre crops? 17:16:07 <planetmaker> it could produce packaging. It could produce paper. It could produce plastic boxes. It could produce plastic bags, it could produce jute fabric 17:16:21 <andythenorth> or replace something with fibre crops? 17:16:25 <planetmaker> well. That'd allow for some of the cross-talk I advocate :-) 17:16:38 <planetmaker> oh. raw sugar 17:16:47 <planetmaker> rwsg -> fibre crops 17:16:59 <andythenorth> so no sugar refinery? 17:17:04 <planetmaker> yes 17:17:06 <andythenorth> no sugar cane railways :P 17:17:17 <andythenorth> I was wondering if sugar was a step too far 17:17:23 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-234-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 17:17:24 <planetmaker> you deleted the cane plantation anyway, did you? 17:17:33 <andythenorth> arable farm produces beet / cane 17:17:46 <planetmaker> yes. And it could instead much more likely produce fibre crops 17:17:51 <andythenorth> so sugar would have to be removed 17:17:55 <planetmaker> yep 17:18:03 <planetmaker> which... violates #1462 :-P 17:18:06 <planetmaker> still :-) 17:18:08 <andythenorth> no neat looking sugar refineries :P 17:18:18 <andythenorth> I like sugar :( 17:18:22 <planetmaker> Not drawn. So doesn't matter :-) 17:18:26 <andythenorth> I don't like the dominance of farm -> food 17:18:55 * fjb likes shugar refineries. 17:19:00 <andythenorth> could remove fruit + veg 17:19:01 <planetmaker> I don't mind that. But when I did farms in the last game I was missing a bit incentive to move also to the industrial sector 17:19:06 <planetmaker> this could provide this incentive 17:19:11 <planetmaker> no no. 17:19:24 <planetmaker> Distilleries have to stay 17:19:36 <andythenorth> can still accept grain 17:19:44 <andythenorth> fruit plantation would get canned though 17:19:44 <andythenorth> :P 17:19:56 <planetmaker> Yes. But just deleting that doesn't make it more interesting. The cross talk of industries is what is interesting 17:19:59 <planetmaker> at least some 17:20:08 <planetmaker> Deleting agriculture doesn't help there a single bit 17:20:22 <andythenorth> removing fruit and veg would allow mixed farm to produce fibre crops 17:20:26 <planetmaker> Then it would be dominated by furnances, aluminum plants and similar big buildings 17:20:39 <planetmaker> which are rather boring in comparison to the agriculture things 17:21:09 <andythenorth> shame farms can only produce 2 cargo types 17:21:25 <andythenorth> an arable farm might be producing 4-5 different useful types of crop 17:21:26 <planetmaker> I like fruits a lot :-) 17:21:31 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-234-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 17:22:33 <andythenorth> hmm 17:22:51 <andythenorth> cotton will be tropic only, produced by plantation 17:22:59 <andythenorth> sugar could also be produced by plantation 17:23:04 <andythenorth> arable farm could produce fibre crops 17:23:17 <andythenorth> sugar beet could be ignored in temperate etc 17:23:40 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:24:08 <planetmaker> so sugar only in tropic via a plantation? Fine with me 17:24:20 <planetmaker> would allow for the beloved sugar refinery ;-) 17:24:28 <planetmaker> sub-cargo: candies 17:24:48 <andythenorth> no beets :P 17:25:07 <planetmaker> fine with me :-) 17:26:08 <fjb> We had a lot of shugar refineries here. So not only tropic. :-) 17:26:48 <V453000> fibre crops reminds me of ECS :( 17:27:08 <planetmaker> that doesn't matter. it can be called differently 17:28:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth, is fruit plantation also in the temperate? Yes afaik 17:28:40 <andythenorth> yes 17:28:45 <planetmaker> If so... then indeed the mixed farm could produce the fibre crops instead of fruit 17:28:50 <andythenorth> only climate-specific industry is cotton plantation 17:28:50 <planetmaker> and sugre would stay where it is 17:29:08 <planetmaker> question though: cargo slot availble? 17:29:13 <andythenorth> yes / no 17:29:22 <planetmaker> hm? 17:29:25 <andythenorth> I'd consider that an awful lot of farm cargos 17:29:38 <planetmaker> then look at your mines: 17:29:41 <andythenorth> although I suppose we could argue the same about 'mine cargos' 17:29:43 <andythenorth> hmm 17:29:49 <andythenorth> you thought the same :) 17:29:52 <planetmaker> copper, coal, clay, sand, gravel, bauxite 17:30:00 <planetmaker> ironore 17:30:02 <andythenorth> guano 17:30:02 <planetmaker> same thing 17:30:06 <planetmaker> if not more 17:30:14 <planetmaker> So if at all this makes farms more interesting 17:30:14 <andythenorth> no copper :) 17:30:42 <andythenorth> it's worth kicking at sugar a bit more 17:30:51 <andythenorth> and also, I would want a better name for fibre crops 17:31:04 <planetmaker> Hemp? ;-) 17:31:08 <andythenorth> I know what they are now, but I can't really picture them as a player 17:31:11 <planetmaker> But what is wrong with fibre crops? 17:31:24 <planetmaker> That's the correct naming 17:31:38 <andythenorth> I know, but it sounds odd 17:31:43 <planetmaker> not to me :-P 17:31:48 <andythenorth> no child draws a picture of a 'fibre crop farm' 17:31:49 <andythenorth> :) 17:31:57 <planetmaker> there's also no such thing 17:32:06 <planetmaker> but it's one thing farms do produce 17:32:09 <planetmaker> at least here 17:32:24 <andythenorth> cotton is a fibre crop 17:32:25 <andythenorth> hmm 17:32:40 <planetmaker> hm, is it? Ok :-) 17:33:03 <planetmaker> So... not Cotton but fibres? 17:33:09 <planetmaker> but same cargo label? 17:33:28 <planetmaker> could work 17:34:07 <andythenorth> hmm 17:34:13 <andythenorth> I don't like the name at all ) 17:34:15 <andythenorth> :) 17:34:19 <planetmaker> :-) 17:34:32 <andythenorth> so they also go to the plastic plant? 17:34:39 <planetmaker> They could, yes 17:34:48 <planetmaker> To a renamed plastics plant ;-) 17:34:57 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7485A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:04 <planetmaker> But I know no good name :-( 17:35:15 <andythenorth> that's because irl it's just 'plastics plant' 17:35:16 <andythenorth> :) 17:35:19 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7485A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:35:29 <andythenorth> your problem with that name is the same as my problem with fibre crops 17:35:30 <planetmaker> :-) 17:35:59 <planetmaker> Not quite I think. Currently it's quite ok. But if it starts to accept fibres, then it sounds weired 17:36:10 <andythenorth> what are the most representative fibre crops? 17:36:15 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_crop 17:36:22 <planetmaker> hemp, straw, cotton, ... 17:36:43 <planetmaker> trees 17:36:50 <andythenorth> trees I think we have covered :) 17:36:56 <planetmaker> yep 17:37:49 <planetmaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jute 17:37:59 <andythenorth> "Organic fibres" ? 17:38:06 <andythenorth> Plant fibres? 17:38:07 <planetmaker> sure :-) 17:38:14 <planetmaker> organic fibres sounds good :-) 17:38:33 <andythenorth> Natural fibres? 17:38:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "Jutestiefel" - "Sie sprechen Dialekt, das heiÃt gute Stiefel" 17:38:44 <planetmaker> :-P 17:38:47 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_fibre 17:39:23 <andythenorth> Ok so cotton could be 'natural fibres' 17:39:28 <planetmaker> yep 17:39:30 <andythenorth> natural fibres -> textile mill 17:39:33 <planetmaker> cargo label stays 17:39:35 <planetmaker> CTTN 17:39:40 <andythenorth> not fibre crops? 17:39:42 <andythenorth> as per ECS? 17:39:45 <planetmaker> hm 17:39:51 <planetmaker> does it matter? 17:39:53 * andythenorth wikis 17:40:00 <planetmaker> CTTN is already there. 17:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> what about silk? :) 17:40:33 *** TheMask96 [martijn@envy.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:40:37 <andythenorth> spider farm? 17:40:38 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Jute statt Plastik. 17:40:52 <planetmaker> :-) Ha, I'd do that as add-on! :-) 17:41:04 <planetmaker> Nicely animated giant-spiders... 17:41:21 <fjb> New desaster: Spider alert! 17:41:26 <andythenorth> I think we should use the ECS label: FICR 17:41:40 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:41:46 <andythenorth> natural fibres -> textile mill -> goods 17:41:55 <andythenorth> natural fibres -> plastics plant -> goods / mnsp 17:41:58 <Alberth> hi hi andythenorth 17:42:01 <andythenorth> hi hi 17:42:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: those two chains don't really address your 'more industrial' desire 17:42:26 <fjb> Moin Alberth 17:42:26 <planetmaker> ah... CTTN is FIRS only. Yes, then FICR 17:42:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the plastics plant does 17:42:48 <Alberth> mojn moin fjb, planetmaker 17:42:52 <planetmaker> hi Alberth 17:42:55 <Alberth> s/j/i/ 17:43:02 <planetmaker> :-D Dutchie! 17:43:30 <fjb> fib? :-) 17:43:50 <planetmaker> :-P 17:44:01 <andythenorth> hmm 17:44:04 <andythenorth> ethanol plant 17:44:11 <andythenorth> grain -> ethanol plant -> petrol 17:44:13 <fjb> Called wine. 17:44:20 *** lewymati [~lewymati@static-78-8-146-157.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #openttd 17:44:22 <planetmaker> yes, for example 17:44:25 <andythenorth> natural fibres -> ethanol plant -> petrol 17:44:47 <planetmaker> hm... not fibres ;-) 17:44:54 <planetmaker> grain 17:44:57 <Alberth> fjb: only the first j was replaced, otherwise I'd had to do s/j/i/g 17:45:03 <andythenorth> cellulosic ethanol from cotton? 17:45:26 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol 17:45:47 <planetmaker> ah. thx. Ok. fibres, too ;-) 17:45:58 <andythenorth> depends on what we do with sugar 17:46:04 <planetmaker> keep 17:46:05 <andythenorth> re-arranging cargo chains is complex :) 17:46:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20836 /trunk/src/lang/ (12 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) 17:46:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:46:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by KorneySan 17:46:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 4 changes by josesun 17:46:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: chuvash - 8 changes by mefisteron 17:46:14 <andythenorth> sugar -> ethanol is more valid 17:46:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_ 17:46:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 3 changes by IPG 17:46:17 <planetmaker> I don't want to see you cry for the sugar refinery. Nor fjb ;-) 17:46:34 <planetmaker> eh? Sugar -> ethanol? Not needed 17:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should stop the rearranging at some point ;) 17:46:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I did 17:46:53 <andythenorth> planetmaker restarted it, against his own advice :P 17:46:55 <planetmaker> evil pm came? 17:47:05 <planetmaker> :-D 17:47:07 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 17:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently you did not, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion ;) 17:47:25 <andythenorth> I guess it takes two to tango :P 17:47:28 <planetmaker> I found it a bit sad to have no cross-talk ;-) 17:47:38 <planetmaker> I only want to slightly add something ;-) 17:47:42 <andythenorth> the main change is making cotton a more generic cargo 17:47:46 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1b59c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:50 <planetmaker> yep 17:47:52 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1b59c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:48:02 <planetmaker> Which doesn't really hurt 17:48:20 <andythenorth> still 3 free slots 17:48:32 <fjb> Better draw the missing sprites. Delivering to coloured blobs is not that fun. :-) 17:48:36 <andythenorth> doesn't do anything to solve the food problem :P 17:48:42 <andythenorth> fjb: I've been working on it. 17:49:07 <andythenorth> there is a builders yard. Leave 'encouraging' feedback in the dev thread if you want ;) 17:49:15 <andythenorth> also I deleted some industries 17:49:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth, so... to summarize: mixed farm produces fibres 17:49:19 * fjb has no food problem, had a great meal two hours ago. 17:49:19 <andythenorth> that eliminates a few boxes 17:49:23 <planetmaker> fibres go to plastics plant 17:49:29 <planetmaker> or to textile mill 17:49:32 <andythenorth> yup 17:49:37 <planetmaker> that's all ;-) 17:49:43 <planetmaker> remove fruit from mixed 17:50:05 <andythenorth> problems remaining: (1) straw? (2) acceptance of fruit & veg 17:50:07 *** lewymati [~lewymati@static-78-8-146-157.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [] 17:50:15 <planetmaker> eh? straw? 17:50:18 <andythenorth> straw was a major building material ) 17:50:19 <andythenorth> :) 17:50:23 <andythenorth> it's a fibre crop 17:50:24 <planetmaker> organic fibres 17:50:29 <planetmaker> same cargo 17:50:30 <andythenorth> ah, but so are reeds and other crops 17:50:40 <Eddi|zuHause> straw and lime? 17:50:45 <planetmaker> ^ 17:50:45 <andythenorth> well my problem was that straw should come from same place as grain 17:50:50 <andythenorth> but we can ignore that 17:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> in the 15th century probably. bricks were already fairly common in the beginning of the industrial era 17:51:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth, then you have to swap cargos more. 17:51:53 <planetmaker> possible 17:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> straw continued use in rural areas, especially for roofs 17:51:59 <planetmaker> but... not that good to do 17:52:12 <andythenorth> nah we'll just overlook the detail of straw 17:52:24 <planetmaker> but when you anyway broke compatibility already: then you can do that 17:52:43 <andythenorth> it's better to keep grain / sugar at the arable farm 17:52:48 <andythenorth> they are rotation crops 17:52:58 <planetmaker> :-) 17:53:10 <andythenorth> mixed farm can grow reeds :) 17:53:14 <andythenorth> or whatever 17:53:24 <andythenorth> still haven't solve acceptance of fruit & veg 17:54:11 <andythenorth> anyway, there's no valid industry to process natural fibres to building materials 17:54:28 <planetmaker> the constr. yard 17:54:40 <planetmaker> re fruits: go to distillery or shop 17:54:49 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:52 <andythenorth> the builders yard doesn't process :) 17:54:54 <andythenorth> it just accepts 17:55:01 <andythenorth> forget straw :) 17:55:31 <andythenorth> what's the incentive to deliver fruit to shop? 17:56:00 <planetmaker> why not? I want healthy inhabitants 17:56:20 <andythenorth> but if you deliver to distillery, you get more cargo... 17:56:28 <planetmaker> yes 17:56:51 <planetmaker> but that's no real argument against the shortcut route either 17:57:28 <fjb> And planetmaker wants healthy inhabitants, not drunken ones. 17:57:42 <andythenorth> and does town growth need fruit & veg? 17:57:58 <andythenorth> in what ways are fruit & veg not food? :o 17:58:04 <planetmaker> fjb, let's say: provide them with something so that they can say, "but I ate this carrot! May I now empty these bottles?" 17:58:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth, they're an intermediate thing, too. As the distillery makes it food 17:58:49 <planetmaker> you can't have a farm produce food ;-) 17:58:53 <andythenorth> hmm 17:58:58 <andythenorth> milk -> shops? 17:59:05 <planetmaker> possible 17:59:09 <andythenorth> are 'eggs' livestock? 17:59:13 <planetmaker> no 17:59:25 <andythenorth> :D 17:59:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's fun to figure this out, but meanwhile check your forum pms 18:00:12 <andythenorth> we have a new project to host on devzone :) 18:00:55 <planetmaker> nice. Yes, definitely. I'll see to it 18:01:22 <andythenorth> seems they have a build environment already 18:02:46 <planetmaker> yep 18:03:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: are there too many sources of livestock? 18:03:49 <andythenorth> i.e. dairy farm, mixed farm, sheep farm 18:04:08 <planetmaker> do you think? 18:04:14 <andythenorth> 3 sources of livestock vs. 1 source of fruit & veg....makes me rethink what gets changed at mixed farm 18:04:21 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:04:22 <andythenorth> not sure 18:04:37 <andythenorth> mixed farm is pigs + chickens :) 18:04:44 <andythenorth> a world without bacon and eggs? 18:05:08 <planetmaker> a mixed farm needs animals. Or it isn't mixed 18:05:23 <andythenorth> names can be changed :P 18:05:28 <planetmaker> :-P 18:05:42 <andythenorth> or fruit plantation could be 'market garden' and produce natural fibres also 18:05:58 <planetmaker> hm... not really IMHO 18:06:04 <andythenorth> farms offer many combination possibilities :) 18:06:20 <fjb> Random farms... 18:07:16 <andythenorth> considered it :) 18:07:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, if you think that there's too much livestock: change mixed farm livestock to milk 18:07:31 <andythenorth> considered random cargo production at many industries. always rejected though :) 18:07:46 <andythenorth> it was more that there might be too little fruit and veg? 18:08:03 <planetmaker> no. They're not that common 18:08:24 <planetmaker> Hm... 18:08:49 <planetmaker> no. Even though from a realism POV it might be nice, I think it's not a good idea 18:08:54 <andythenorth> so the only source of fruit and veg will be fruit plantation? 18:09:06 <andythenorth> is 'veg' even needed? 18:09:27 <andythenorth> how about Yet Another Farm Type :P 18:10:24 <planetmaker> skip fruit plantation and make it a farm ;-) 18:10:38 <planetmaker> fruit and vegetables farm :-P 18:11:00 <planetmaker> actually... no :-) I don't want further changes :-) 18:12:09 <andythenorth> 'natural fibres plantation'? 18:12:10 <andythenorth> :P 18:12:32 <andythenorth> shame the arable farm can't have 3 outputs 18:12:39 <andythenorth> or alternate different years :D 18:12:45 <planetmaker> :-D 18:14:16 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I think sugar has to go from temperate 18:14:27 <andythenorth> sugar beet is quite a specific cargo 18:14:38 <andythenorth> arable farm can produce natural fibers 18:15:03 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-234-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 18:15:30 <andythenorth> sugar can be tropic only 18:15:49 <andythenorth> cotton will be available in all climates as natural fibers 18:15:53 <andythenorth> it's a fair switch 18:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with sugar beet? 18:16:55 <andythenorth> nothing wrong with it, but planetmaker is arguing for natural fibers 18:16:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the main agricultural products here, next to wheat and rapeseed 18:17:07 <andythenorth> well something has to go somewhere :P 18:17:18 <andythenorth> or we recode industries to have n outputs (3 would do) 18:17:55 <andythenorth> so forest also produces natural fibres? 18:18:02 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, then you just made the case for oil seeds instead of fibre crops ;-) 18:18:15 <andythenorth> and papermill acceptance should be natural fibre instead of wood? 18:18:35 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host105-234-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:18:37 <planetmaker> not really... 18:18:40 <Eddi|zuHause> no... 18:18:46 * fjb wants ol seeds and yellow opengfx fields. :-) 18:19:02 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1DD71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:05 <planetmaker> fjb, draw them. I'll be happy about it! :-) 18:19:32 <andythenorth> can't we just have 'crops' ? 18:19:50 <andythenorth> it would be way simpler 18:19:55 <planetmaker> same as 'stuff dug out of earth'? 18:20:18 <andythenorth> farms produce: 'crops', 'livestock', 'milk', 'wool' 18:20:19 <planetmaker> one mining cargo. one farm cargo. 18:21:02 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1DD71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:21:06 * planetmaker doesn't want to overthrow everything 18:21:56 <andythenorth> I am serious about crops 18:22:10 <andythenorth> we have livestock, not sheep, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses 18:22:32 <Wolf01> lizards? 18:22:35 <fjb> We nedd horses to attract more girls to the game. 18:22:42 <andythenorth> ponies 18:23:32 <andythenorth> also 'crops' covers the issue that most farms grow several crop types in rotation to preserve fertile soil 18:24:35 <andythenorth> planetmaker: what do you think? 18:24:41 <planetmaker> hm... 18:24:49 <planetmaker> would make it quite boring :-) 18:24:53 <planetmaker> crops to the distillery 18:24:57 <planetmaker> crops to the supermarket 18:25:02 <planetmaker> crops to the textile plant 18:25:11 <andythenorth> hmm 18:25:12 <planetmaker> crops to the <whatever> 18:25:28 <andythenorth> but arguing grain / oil seeds / fibers / sugar is also a bit unsolvable 18:25:35 <andythenorth> unless we add more farm types 18:25:36 <andythenorth> :P 18:25:41 <planetmaker> it would cut 1/3 of the agriculture by what it feels like 18:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> make the output cargo random each year ;) 18:26:27 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> andythenorth, so... to summarize: mixed farm produces fibres 18:26:27 <planetmaker> * fjb has no food problem, had a great meal two hours ago. 18:26:27 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> that eliminates a few boxes 18:26:27 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> fibres go to plastics plant 18:26:27 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> or to textile mill 18:26:28 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> yup 18:26:30 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> that's all ;-) 18:26:32 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> remove fruit from mixed 18:26:38 <planetmaker> :-) 18:26:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not possible :P 18:26:51 <planetmaker> I really see no need for further changes 18:27:04 <andythenorth> output cargos can't be changed, there is no cb, action 0 prop only 18:27:56 <andythenorth> so leave sugar in temperate / arctic, no removal 18:28:02 <andythenorth> and forget oil seeds :P 18:29:09 <andythenorth> poop 18:29:18 <andythenorth> is wool a type of natural fibre? 18:29:30 <planetmaker> kinda 18:29:43 <V453000> can I have a feature request for FIRS please? 18:29:54 *** trebuchet [~Trebuchet@69.51.104.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:29:54 <andythenorth> depends 18:29:56 *** Sacro [~ben@87.102.5.146] has joined #openttd 18:29:57 <V453000> I _NEED_ my headquarters to accept beer 18:30:02 <V453000> :p 18:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> random fact: this year, during harvest season it rained a lot, so the wheat stayed on the fields way too long, so it can only be used as animal food. but due to russia (3rd biggest wheat exporter) cancelling all exports, the wheat price drastically increased, so even the "bad" wheat is worth more than the "good" wheat in usual years 18:30:56 <Alberth> unfortunately, headquarters is not an industry :p 18:31:09 <V453000> :( 18:31:29 <V453000> there could be HQ as an industry :p 18:31:41 <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: and they cancelled the exports because on the fires 18:31:44 <Noldo> *of 18:32:37 <Alberth> I would expect that HQs are already available in NewGRF, in that case you should be able to make such a HQ 18:32:53 <andythenorth> coffee in FIRS? 18:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> germany is one of the largest wheat importers 18:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> like 80% of the wheat is imported 18:33:27 <andythenorth> rice? 18:33:47 <Alberth> in the japanese economy :) 18:34:14 <Alberth> coffee was recently suggested by RB iirc 18:34:41 * Rubidium suggesting coffee? 18:34:45 <planetmaker> :-) 18:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but, what makes coffee any different from any other cargo? 18:34:51 <planetmaker> Tea! 18:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what about Tobacco then? 18:35:12 <Alberth> Rubidium: we had a discussion about the meaning of shops selling coffee 18:35:14 <planetmaker> kinda reminds me of colonization. 18:35:30 <Rubidium> coffee is, like beer, yucky 18:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you can easily fill all 32 cargo slots with agricultural goods 18:35:42 <andythenorth> maybe we should :P 18:36:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker: consolidate wool, or use the name 'vegetable fibres' ? 18:36:24 <planetmaker> plant fibres 18:36:34 <andythenorth> plant fibres is nice 18:36:38 <planetmaker> or straw is hard to justify ;-) 18:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i loved colonization, but the remake is ... boring 18:36:45 <andythenorth> forget straw :P 18:36:49 <planetmaker> reed? 18:36:52 <planetmaker> :-P 18:36:53 <V453000> cow shit could be nice too ^_^ 18:36:59 <Alberth> take plant fibres to a plant... hmm :) 18:37:20 <planetmaker> Alberth, to a plastics plant :-P 18:37:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and the modding community isn't as big as for plain civ4, so that part is not very developed either 18:37:53 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4db81285.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:38:35 <planetmaker> yes, unfortunately 18:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone tried civ5 yet? 18:42:30 <Terkhen> I'll wait until it gets cheap 18:43:17 * andythenorth only plays ottd...and dope wars 18:43:49 * V453000 plays ottd ... and ottd :p 18:43:55 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Quit: Quit] 18:44:10 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 18:44:17 * Alberth plays 'hacking in source code' mostly :) 18:44:18 * Eddi|zuHause didn't play ottd in quite a while 18:44:45 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i tried the demo for 5 minutes last night, and noticed a positive change: the game doesn't minimize itself if it loses focus, so you can use apps on the other screen while running fullscreen civ on the other. 18:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that point is irrelevant when playing in wine ;) 18:45:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but before i can even think about trying civ5, i need a new computer 18:57:15 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:05:40 <__ln__> those are sold in some places 19:06:12 *** Sacro [~ben@87.102.5.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:06:49 <Terkhen> I don't think that a game like civ should require a lot of advanced graphics... they put them in anyways, right? 19:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: civ4 is already pretty much at the limit of my computing capabilities 19:08:05 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of stuff is in python, so not exactly performance friendly 19:08:50 <Terkhen> it already has too much graphics IMO; the civ leader screen always lagged my computer a lot 19:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you can replace those by static images ;) 19:10:02 <Terkhen> that's what I did 19:10:21 <Terkhen> in fact, I dropped almost everything to minimum 19:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't have that many problems with the graphics 19:11:02 *** Wolf03 [~wolf01@host85-237-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:11:02 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest455 19:11:03 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 19:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> troubles starts with larger than "standard" maps 19:15:17 *** Guest455 [~wolf01@host105-234-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:15:29 *** Sacro [~Sacro@87.102.5.146] has joined #openttd 19:17:41 *** X-2 [~X-2@5ED67292.cm-7-7b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:52 * dihedral listens to "Friday Afternoon Buzz" :-) 19:25:33 <Eddi|zuHause> on wednesday? 19:27:01 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd 19:27:38 <fjb> Friday on my mind. 19:45:28 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B6A8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 19:47:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20837 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4132]: Set height of industry directory to 5 lines like other lists. 19:53:39 <Belugas> :D 19:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> another person craving for it to be friday :p 19:56:36 <Terkhen> :) 19:57:14 <Rubidium> what's so fun about friday? 19:57:23 <Rubidium> you still have to work on it 19:59:05 <dihedral> Belugas, recognizes the song :-) 20:00:21 *** TomyLobo [~foo@port-212-202-171-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: A key, command, or action that tells the system to return to a previous state or stop a process.] 20:01:12 <Belugas> for those who really want to know: http://devs.openttd.org/~belugas/music/FridayAfternoonBuzz.mp3 20:01:27 <dihedral> :-) 20:01:36 <planetmaker> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=904827#p904827 <-- can that really be true? 20:01:56 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4db81285.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:44 <andythenorth> plausible 20:02:47 <dihedral> wow 20:02:55 <andythenorth> he's probably what, 12? 20:03:02 <andythenorth> I would have been about the same 20:03:09 <Terkhen> :) 20:03:50 <andythenorth> version numbers, nightlies, urls you can't click....all very confusing :) 20:04:49 <frosch123> oh, planetmaker is here. so i can pad him directly with fs#4135 20:05:26 <planetmaker> that's the multiline thing? 20:08:48 <frosch123> yes 20:12:34 <planetmaker> :S 20:12:40 <planetmaker> I cannot even reproduce it myself 20:15:32 <andythenorth> which is better: Grain Mill or Flour Mill? 20:15:35 <andythenorth> grain in -> food out 20:15:58 <planetmaker> Just 'Mill'? 20:16:23 <andythenorth> Nah 20:16:27 <andythenorth> other kinds of mills 20:16:31 <andythenorth> e.g. Textile Mill 20:16:33 <planetmaker> frosch123, I guess I should request closure as either 'unreproducable' or 'invalid' 20:16:46 <planetmaker> hm... languages :-P 20:16:52 <planetmaker> Not in German ;-) 20:17:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd say "grain mill" 20:17:13 <planetmaker> if you ... ^ 20:18:08 <planetmaker> nice. The dictionary knows both, flour mill and corn mill and grain mill and... 20:18:12 <planetmaker> grist mill 20:18:32 <Eddi|zuHause> what's grist? 20:18:34 <andythenorth> "It's all grist to the mill" 20:18:51 <andythenorth> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/grist-to-the-mill.html 20:19:16 <planetmaker> right 20:19:20 <Terkhen> good night 20:19:26 <planetmaker> good night 20:19:31 <Alberth> good night 20:19:56 * planetmaker wonders whether Alberth now leaves, too ;-) 20:20:07 <Alberth> I was too :) 20:20:20 <Alberth> eventually, I will 20:20:28 <SmatZ> good night, Alberth 20:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> "The horse that is next the mill, carries all the grist." <-- does that mean anything close to "Wer zuerst kommt, mahlt zuerst"? 20:20:30 <planetmaker> :-) good night then, too. 20:20:34 <SmatZ> good night, Terkhen 20:20:37 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1b59c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: good night] 20:20:43 <andythenorth> Terkhen is not frosch speed 20:20:49 <SmatZ> nobody is :p 20:20:52 <Rubidium> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFxHPTBriyo :) 20:20:58 <planetmaker> And that sounds quite good... 20:21:06 <planetmaker> ... so ... good night :-) 20:21:13 <SmatZ> :-) 20:21:16 <Alberth> Wolf is also pretty fast usually 20:21:17 <SmatZ> good night, planetmaker 20:24:23 *** uros [~chatzilla@BSN-77-156-227.dsl.siol.net] has joined #openttd 20:25:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm still not entirely sure what it actually means... 20:25:21 *** jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-245-170.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 20:25:33 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gristmill 20:25:42 <andythenorth> me neither 20:26:23 <uros> hey .. if i have two waypoints and three stations between them .. can i set the route just prom point A to B ..or i have to set it point A - station 1 - s2 - s3 - point 2 .. is there any difference ? 20:27:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grist 20:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> uros: you don't have to set the waypoints. 20:27:37 <andythenorth> seems grist is also a unix term 20:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> uros: there are differences, but they are unimportant if your trains don't get lost or something... 20:28:29 <uros> aha ... so is the same if i set the route to the last point .. train will stop and load/unload at stations .. .i don't have to define all stations on the route 20:28:54 <SmatZ> uros: if you set your order to be "non-stop", trains won't stop in intermediate stations 20:29:12 <SmatZ> so don't set it "non-stop" 20:29:29 <uros> ok thnx 20:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> uros: with stations it's slightly different, because trains will try to go around stations they don't have as order. 20:43:05 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-166-38.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 20:43:54 *** davis [~b@p5B28B6C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:46:44 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-216-203.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 20:47:03 <frosch123> night Wolf01 20:47:08 <frosch123> night 20:47:11 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f6324.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:25 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-166-38.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 20:48:28 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 20:50:20 *** LaSeandre_ [~LaSeandre@5e0e0bec.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:51:30 <fjb> Fastest frog on earth... 20:54:19 <fjb> Humor á la DB: http://www.flickr.com/photos/57291061@N00/5015906798/ 20:55:14 <SmatZ> silly flickr stealing my rmb 20:55:42 <fjb> Yes, it is silly. 20:57:07 <SmatZ> the fun is in "KÃŒrze", right? 20:58:17 <fjb> It translates to something like: A modern information system will be coming soon. Soon is relative. 20:59:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20838 /trunk/src/core/bitmath_func.hpp: -Fix [FS#4136]: Cast '1' in bitmath functions to width of result before shifting. 20:59:56 <fjb> It would have been better to just switch the displays off as long as they don't display anything useful. 20:59:59 <SmatZ> ok, I failed :) 21:00:10 <dihedral> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=50180&p=904841 21:00:21 <dihedral> just in case someone might be interested in competition ^^ 21:00:44 <SpComb> cargodist! 21:01:10 <fjb> What does the patch do? 21:01:11 <dihedral> SpComb it's about the distribution between stations :-P 21:01:16 <Alberth> dihedral: I hope you have more luck than me and RB 21:01:23 *** LaSeandrePhone [~LaSeandre@customer10950.98.ld.cust.t-mobile.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:02:00 <dihedral> Alberth, yeah.... 21:02:08 <fjb> RB? 21:02:15 <dihedral> mr. nosy 21:02:36 <dihedral> SpComb, thanks though - i have updated the thread title :-P 21:03:45 <dihedral> anyway - time for bed now ^^ 21:03:47 <Alberth> fjb: one of the devs, also mentioned in that post 21:03:55 <dihedral> lol 21:04:08 <dihedral> Alberth, that is too hard to find for some 21:04:22 <fjb> Ah. 21:04:33 <Alberth> those somes then don't deserve to know :) 21:04:50 <dihedral> bit like an easter egg hunt then :-P 21:05:02 <dihedral> "if you cannot find 'em, you aint gettin any!" 21:05:10 <SmatZ> dihedral: like fail :p 21:05:16 <SmatZ> typo :) 21:05:26 <dihedral> :-D 21:05:32 <SmatZ> so did you ;) 21:05:35 *** Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 21:05:40 <SmatZ> I have setup a very basic server to test the patch in FS 3637 <== the link is broken 21:05:52 <SpComb> tast 21:05:57 <SpComb> don't type URLs by hand 21:06:10 <dihedral> :-D 21:06:23 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:06:41 <dihedral> when one considers using the mouse to go to another tab and highlight the url, move back and paste to bee too much work 21:07:09 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe83de00-38.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 21:07:13 <SpComb> Ctrl+tab,l,c,shift+tab,v 21:07:26 <dihedral> SpComb, if the tabs are next to eachother yes 21:07:31 <SmatZ> "beee" 21:07:37 <SpComb> Alt-n then 21:07:44 <SmatZ> ctrl+left,right 21:07:53 <dihedral> alt+27? 21:07:57 <SpComb> sure! 21:08:14 <dihedral> not for me :-P 21:08:20 <dihedral> it will jump to 2 then to 7 21:08:22 <dihedral> helpful 21:08:29 <SpComb> Ctrl-w helps with that 21:08:39 <dihedral> lol 21:08:46 <SmatZ> Alt+F4 is good too :p 21:08:49 <dihedral> actually it's somewhere between 30 and 50 :-D 21:08:57 <SpComb> SmatZ: that tends to remember the stuff 21:09:02 *** Klanticus [~quassel@200-161-120-132.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:09:02 <SmatZ> oh :( 21:09:10 <dihedral> not of the stupid download window is open 21:12:17 <dihedral> ini: invalid setting value 'yes' for 'gui.keep_all_autosave' <- grrr 21:15:16 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:15:30 <fjb> That world is big. 21:15:39 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host85-237-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:16:33 <dihedral> fjb: it needs testing! 21:16:53 *** LaSeandrePhone [~LaSeandre@customer10950.98.ld.cust.t-mobile.co.uk] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 21:16:56 <dihedral> anyways - good night 21:17:01 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-216-203.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:17:48 *** LaSeandre [~sean@millsie.net] has joined #openttd 21:20:02 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has left #openttd [] 21:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "saw 7" <-- wtf? seeing one of these was too much already... 21:24:14 <fjb> You saw one? 21:24:17 *** keoz [~keikoz@418pc.wohnheimg.uni-frankfurt.de] has joined #openttd 21:24:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i saw saw one :p 21:24:39 *** davis [~b@p5B28B6C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:25:14 <Eddi|zuHause> my friends dragged me into the cinema without really telling me what it was about... 21:26:20 * fjb sab about 2 minutes of one on tv. 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