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Log for #openttd on 17th March 2011:
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00:22:20  <Eddi|zuHause> small random idea: is there a GRF that has a "shunting yard" railtype? i.e. one that has a concrete track base blending in with ISR stations, for junctions etc.?
00:24:08  <Yexo> doesn't ISR have that kind of tiles?
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00:24:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: it has fake switches and stuff. but i meant non-station rail. real switches, signals...
00:26:00  <Eddi|zuHause> something that blends in with the station, but isn't a station
00:32:10  <confound> Eddi|zuHause: so it's possible to accidentally have a station that can deliver but not pick up cargo?
00:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> confound: yes.
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00:38:53  <supermop> i could try to make such a thing
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00:42:59  <Wolf01> 'night
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01:38:50  <Katje> 99
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01:57:47  <Eddi|zuHause> 213
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06:59:36  <planetmaker> moin
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07:43:16  <avdg> moin
07:45:36  <dihedral> good morning
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08:44:03  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:54:12  <pikka> herp
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09:35:57  <Wolf01> good morning
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10:20:56  <pikka> good morning wolf
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11:38:06  <Eddi|zuHause> good noon. :p
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12:10:58  <pikka> good evening eddi
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12:11:16  <pikka> how's tricks?
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12:13:31  * andythenorth seeks a new FIRS cargo not available until maybe 1990s
12:14:01  <V453000> space beer
12:14:04  <confound> haha
12:14:08  <andythenorth> I shall consider it
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12:15:32  <andythenorth> the only thing I've thought of so far is windfarm components
12:15:33  <pikka> tamagotchi
12:15:52  <andythenorth> I ruled out asylum seekers as being a bit in bad taste
12:16:02  <andythenorth> iphones
12:16:05  <andythenorth> :P
12:16:17  <pikka> and not exactly new in the 90s
12:16:27  <andythenorth> indeed
12:16:37  <andythenorth> 'slaves' seems to be missing from my early games :P
12:16:41  <pikka> iphones in the 90s?
12:16:44  <andythenorth> or 'convicts'
12:17:01  <andythenorth> pikka: could be 2000s
12:17:11  <andythenorth> I just want something new to do at that point
12:18:01  <V453000> electronics?
12:18:05  <V453000> well that is goods
12:18:18  <andythenorth> yeah
12:18:30  <V453000> idk, uranium?
12:18:36  <andythenorth> biofuels are just petrol
12:18:44  <andythenorth> uranium is possible
12:18:52  <andythenorth> but the quantities are tiny
12:18:58  <V453000> ?
12:19:09  <V453000> you mean it is only primary -> power plant
12:19:21  <andythenorth> and in small amounts yes
12:19:31  <pikka> and the whole waste chain
12:19:49  <pikka> hmm
12:20:05  <V453000> why not in large amounts? do not tell me "realism" please :D
12:20:07  <pikka> drunk foreign girls asking when I get off work
12:20:16  <confound> there are enough of those to fill a train?
12:20:21  <confound> sounds terrifying
12:20:23  <andythenorth> pikka: is that a cargo in large or small quantities?
12:20:55  <confound> pikka: I have what might be a stupid question about ukrs2.
12:21:16  <andythenorth> I could add 'recyclables'
12:21:24  <andythenorth> which come from town to a processing plant
12:21:32  <V453000> andythenorth: cant you make any cargo a large quantity cargo just by prospecting a ton of mines?
12:21:38  <andythenorth> V453000: yes
12:21:48  <V453000> recyclables are interesting :)
12:21:59  <confound> pikka: it seems like once the 1960s hit, there's no reason not to use the AL1 and then AL6 for pretty much everything, even big coal/iron trains, because they're cheap and have huge HP. am I doing it wrong?
12:22:00  <andythenorth> it's a bit like reintroducing waste?
12:22:17  <V453000> idk, will houses produce recycling or some waste yards?
12:22:25  <andythenorth> waste yard I think
12:22:39  <andythenorth> that's what happened previously with waste chain
12:22:44  <andythenorth> it was mucho boring though
12:22:51  <V453000> well, not really
12:23:10  <V453000> although I would make such yards directly inside cities just like the pumps/shops
12:23:22  <andythenorth> previously there was a 'waste collection point' in towns
12:23:28  <andythenorth> with quite low production
12:23:31  <andythenorth> and quite a lot of them
12:23:32  <V453000> and as banks, 1 yard per ... 1000 population?
12:23:54  <andythenorth> it could be that stores / petrol stations produce recyclables after a certain date
12:23:57  <andythenorth> also junk yards
12:24:03  <V453000> hmm
12:24:39  <V453000> I think we could "say" that stores/petrol stations throw it to the dustbins and from there it is taken to junk yards "itself" :)
12:24:56  <andythenorth> could be
12:25:05  <V453000> store sells, does not really produce anythinng actually
12:25:10  <andythenorth> currently the recycling plant exists, but is not in 0.6.x
12:25:15  <V453000> :)
12:25:23  <andythenorth> it is just a primary producing scrap metal / manufacturing supplies
12:25:31  <andythenorth> but maybe it should accept recyclables
12:25:41  <V453000> yes, that would fit nicely :)
12:25:50  <V453000> although there would be one bad thing
12:25:52  <andythenorth> would junk yard produce recyclables?
12:26:03  <V453000> you would get manufacturing supplies from goods/food basically
12:26:22  <V453000> but well, that is far better than if you got them from anything else
12:26:40  <andythenorth> the store could produce independent of what's delivered
12:26:43  <V453000> yes, junk yard (recyclables) -> recycling plant
12:27:16  <Chris_Booth> junk would be nice
12:27:29  <Chris_Booth> and waste would be nice from industries
12:27:35  <V453000> nah, stores should just accept imo... I think making a new industry - junk yard - dependant on city population instead of any relation to the goods/food drop
12:28:19  <Chris_Booth> you could make to store dependent on city size
12:28:22  <Chris_Booth> like banks
12:28:31  <Chris_Booth> 1000 pop = 1 store
12:28:37  <Chris_Booth> 10000 = large store
12:28:42  <Chris_Booth> ect
12:29:12  <V453000> store? you mean junk yard? :)
12:29:20  <Chris_Booth> and things like power plant and steel mills could create junk aswell
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12:29:35  <V453000> that would be kind of over-combinating imo
12:29:46  <andythenorth> been there, done that :P
12:30:14  <Chris_Booth> junk yard should replace scrap metal place
12:30:17  <andythenorth> something else that was suggested - make current junk yard production depend on town population, not supplies
12:30:24  <andythenorth> there are problems with that though
12:30:45  <Chris_Booth> and be in towns
12:31:03  <V453000> just make a junk yard per 1000 pop
12:31:45  <Chris_Booth> thats agreed then
12:32:01  <Chris_Booth> a day for the history books
12:32:07  <Chris_Booth> the day me and V453000 agree
12:32:40  <Chris_Booth> another thing is the products junk yards would make
12:32:58  <Chris_Booth> like scrap metal and broken glass and used plastics
12:33:02  <Chris_Booth> or just one
12:33:25  <andythenorth> I think:
12:33:36  <andythenorth> current junk yard - unchanged -> scrap metal
12:34:03  <andythenorth> new industry: recycling point -> recyclables -> recycling plant -> manufacturing supplies
12:34:19  <andythenorth> and maybe scrap metal
12:34:45  <andythenorth> hmm
12:34:50  <andythenorth> how about a different cargo
12:34:55  <andythenorth> 'internet shopping' :P
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12:35:41  <Chris_Booth> andythenorth you need to change the glass chain, to include recycled glass
12:35:50  <Chris_Booth> the is just imo
12:36:16  <Chris_Booth> but what am I saying I love FIRS as it is
12:36:48  <andythenorth> I am only looking for small changes at this stage
12:37:01  <andythenorth> I need something new from around 1990s...
12:37:11  <Chris_Booth> Fish farms need to be fixed IMO
12:37:18  <andythenorth> in what respects?
12:37:20  <Chris_Booth> since they just die out
12:37:25  <V453000> hm, 3 new cargoes? :D paper/glass/plastics for recycling ... hmm :)
12:37:27  <Chris_Booth> they don't need supplies
12:37:43  <Chris_Booth> but they just die
12:37:47  <V453000> they work
12:37:51  <V453000> just service them
12:38:03  <V453000> they will not grow over 45t/month though
12:38:04  <andythenorth> Chris_Booth: does that sound like this bug? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2355
12:38:09  <Chris_Booth> you serviced them last game V453000, and they died
12:38:18  <V453000> did they? :| hmm
12:38:25  <andythenorth> there may well be a bug with them
12:38:33  <andythenorth> you two might be further confirming it ;)
12:38:49  <Chris_Booth> yes
12:38:52  <V453000> then that probably is the case
12:39:17  <Chris_Booth> I tryed them in an SP game and they died
12:39:36  <andythenorth> bug
12:39:47  <Chris_Booth> not sure if they need passenger to survive but if they need passengers the window should say
12:39:56  <Chris_Booth> or they should take farm supplies
12:40:17  <andythenorth> they shouldn't need anything to survive
12:40:21  <V453000> fishing grounds? you do not feed the fish :p
12:40:26  <andythenorth> it's just missing code :P
12:41:06  <Chris_Booth> I don't care about max production, but they should behave like the scrap metal shain
12:42:06  <Chris_Booth> isn't it also nice that finally we have an industry set the is playable
12:42:13  <Chris_Booth> apart from standard set
12:42:50  * confound agrees
12:44:21  <V453000> we still miss the supplying mechanism, andythenorth :P
12:44:45  <andythenorth> I have two preferred routes at the moment
12:44:50  <andythenorth> (1) no change - easiest
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12:45:03  <andythenorth> (2) higher production levels => more supplies needed for further boost
12:45:23  <V453000> I kind of agree with 2 :p
12:45:26  <andythenorth> my only objection to (2) is that it makes the readme / industry window strings very complicated
12:45:28  <Chris_Booth> yes, that could be good
12:45:54  <V453000> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2296 this is what I am talking about
12:46:00  <Chris_Booth> 1 and 2 would be good if parameters where used to swap between them
12:46:17  <andythenorth> Chris_Booth: there are already too many parameters affecting the supply code
12:46:20  <andythenorth> it's hard to debug
12:46:28  <andythenorth> and may indeed already have bugs in 0.6.2
12:46:36  <Chris_Booth> but just have supply 1 supply per month
12:46:47  <Chris_Booth> shouldn't allow max production
12:46:53  <Chris_Booth> which it does at the moment
12:47:16  <V453000> Chris_Booth: see the issue I linked to :P I think that would cover it pretty well
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12:51:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i think some kind of high-tech chain (sand->wafers->chips->goods)?
12:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause> what do you think, andythenorth?
12:54:51  <confound> that's an interesting idea. I was stuck on thinking of "electronics" separating from "goods" or something
12:55:49  <V453000> I think that it just adds a cargo like "one of many" but the recyclables add a differently working one, which is far more interesting
12:59:49  <planetmaker> hm, sounds like an interesting industry chain for late 20th, early 21st century indeed :-)
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13:37:09  <Pikka_> how rare
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13:55:21  <Belugas> hello
14:04:37  <Pikka> hello Belugas
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14:17:53  <Belugas> Mister Pikka :)
14:17:58  <Belugas> hello there
14:18:02  <Belugas> been a while!
14:18:12  <Belugas> sorry for the lag, i
14:18:14  <Belugas> m
14:18:18  <Belugas> a bit busy :S
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14:27:06  <Pikka> that's fine
14:27:12  <Pikka> I've been busy myself
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15:03:52  <supermop> good morning
15:13:57  <planetmaker> g'day
15:14:38  <V453000> hi :p
15:14:41  <supermop> how are you planetmaker?
15:14:50  <supermop> made any new planets lately?
15:15:03  <V453000> hm, why do I get the feeling like at least 10% of the chat here are greetings? :D
15:16:43  <confound> hi V453000
15:17:12  <V453000> hy
15:18:49  <planetmaker> I'm trying hard, supermop ;-)
15:19:13  <Ammler> Hello V453000 :-)
15:19:30  <Ammler> and hello poor rest
15:19:34  <V453000> hello, Apfelsaft Drinker :P
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15:27:41  <SmatZ> hello V453000
15:27:51  <SmatZ> afternoon Ammler
15:27:55  <V453000> hi ProperBeverage Drinker :P
15:28:04  <SmatZ> :-)
15:28:05  <planetmaker> heya the whole crowd, I'd say :-)
15:28:10  <SmatZ> hello planetmaker :)
15:28:20  <V453000> planermaker: we are no crowd! :P
15:28:28  <supermop> I feel like i haven't done anything on my grf in a long time
15:30:18  <Ammler> bad boy
15:32:02  <planetmaker> very very bad. ALL other people have written 5 newgrfs within that time :-P
15:32:13  <supermop> yep
15:32:24  <SmatZ> indeed
15:32:27  <andythenorth> at least 99 grfs
15:32:27  <planetmaker> I want my money back. Oh well...
15:32:31  <SmatZ> :)
15:32:49  <supermop> i did play a bit of a patchpack game on the airplane monday and yesterday though
15:35:15  <supermop> so i will count that as 'playtesting' my grfs
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15:46:30  <planetmaker> there are people who play the game?
15:48:51  <V453000> hm :)
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15:54:54  <Terkhen> :D
15:55:23  <Terkhen> hmmm... lately I have spent more time playing than coding
15:55:45  <planetmaker> good :-)
15:55:50  <andythenorth> me too
15:55:54  <andythenorth> bizarre
15:55:58  <Terkhen> ^
15:56:33  <planetmaker> maybe "it's done" ;-)
15:59:09  <andythenorth> is it bollocks :P
15:59:28  <andythenorth> I could find at least 99 things to do :)
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16:00:38  <andythenorth> wrt gameplay, the biggest thing I miss is more interesting town growth
16:00:43  <Terkhen> I have a few projects to finish too, but I'm stuck in the "ugly" parts :P
16:01:20  <andythenorth> I am stuck in bug-fix-no-motivation land with FIRS
16:01:31  <andythenorth> and my attempt at roadtypes is thoroughly stuck
16:02:51  <Terkhen> I should finish my scenario queue, but I have the feeling that I'm missing the big picture with my current implementation
16:03:23  <andythenorth> what is a scenario queue?
16:03:58  <Terkhen> I meant a patch queue, the plan is to strip a scenario of everything NewGRF related and allow to restart it with a different choice of NewGRFs
16:05:42  <Terkhen> I still think that it should allow to save the stripped scenario somehow, so it can be distributed without all users needing to strip it first
16:06:51  <supermop> thats a good idea
16:07:17  <supermop> what's got you stuck with roadtypes, andy?
16:27:51  <andythenorth> simply that I'm way out of my depth
16:28:15  <andythenorth> I understand neither the game architecture, nor the programming language
16:28:50  <andythenorth> either of those on its own would be less troubling
16:32:51  <peter1138> Did I ever publish my old code?
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16:35:47  <Terkhen> I don't remember seeing any roadtypes code besides the old repo at hg.openttd.org
16:36:14  <andythenorth> peter1138: I don't remember seeing it
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16:37:52  <planetmaker> http://hg.openttd.org/developers/peter1138/roadtypes.hg/
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16:38:39  <peter1138> Nope
16:38:53  <planetmaker> hm, not?
16:39:09  <Terkhen> that repo seems to be dead anyways
16:39:24  <planetmaker> quite :-(
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19:05:57  <flitz> hi, just out of curiosity, in the source code there are many calls to Window::CreateNestedTree(int) but there is only a definition of Window::CreateNestedTree(int, bool), is there something I don't know about ?
19:06:55  <frosch123> the bool as a default argument
19:06:58  <frosch123> +h
19:07:44  <SmatZ> 	void CreateNestedTree(const WindowDesc *desc, bool fill_nested = true);
19:08:04  <SmatZ> also, that's the reason why I don't like default arguments, or overloading
19:08:16  <SmatZ> searching for the definition is complicated
19:08:18  <flitz> hm, I was thinking of that but when making a small test example of that case it gave me a compiler error
19:08:37  <flitz> I just looked through the files with cat and grep and found the window.cpp for the definition
19:08:53  <frosch123> important is the .h :)
19:09:48  <frosch123> SmatZ: what are you doing instead? one-line wrapper functions with slightly different names?
19:09:49  <flitz> there is no window.h ;)
19:09:59  <SmatZ> frosch123: yup :
19:10:00  <SmatZ> )
19:10:05  <frosch123> that would make it imo a lot more harder to find usages of a function
19:10:20  <SmatZ> well
19:10:22  <flitz> SmatZ: worked with g++, for some reason I was using gcc before and that gave me the error, thanks
19:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> flitz: it doesn't matter what it's called
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19:10:51  <frosch123> flitz: window_gui.h
19:11:06  <SmatZ> if the name of original function is "function()", and name of derivates is "function_Tile()", "function_Bool()", it's enough to grep for "function"
19:11:19  <SmatZ> but yes, your argument is valid
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19:11:33  <alluke> andy
19:11:35  <SmatZ> FauxFaux:
19:11:37  <SmatZ> oops
19:11:54  <SmatZ> flitz: gcc should determine the type by file extension
19:12:00  <alluke> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=53362
19:12:41  <frosch123> alluke: unless andy is back in europe, he is probably quite asleep
19:12:43  <SmatZ> flitz: and you should use some commonly used file extension for C++ files
19:13:41  <flitz> .h and .cpp
19:13:58  <SmatZ> flitz: for C++, it's .cc, .cp, .cxx, .cpp, .CPP, .c++, .C
19:14:16  <SmatZ> flitz: don't run "gcc file.h", unless you want to create PCH
19:14:27  <SmatZ> just compile the .C file
19:14:32  <flitz> I never ran gcc on the header file
19:14:43  <SmatZ> ok, then I don't know why it failed for you :)
19:14:52  <alluke> uk ≠ europe
19:15:20  <SmatZ> uk ⊂ europe
19:15:32  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on who you ask.
19:15:41  <flitz> what failed was just an arbitrary example :)
19:15:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but india probably is not part of europe :p
19:15:59  <flitz> I was just unclear about the definition being used for CreateNestedTree because I didn't see the default value
19:16:24  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: anyway, what do you actually want to tell us?
19:18:26  <alluke> nothing
19:18:33  <alluke> jsut wanted to show andy the link
19:18:38  <Alberth> SmatZ: searching for the definition is complicated  <-- doxygen docs fixes that problem :)
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19:20:30  <SmatZ> Alberth: ok :) well, it's most likely my fault, I should learn new things :)
19:20:46  <SmatZ> I am not far that old not to :P
19:22:13  <SmatZ> or use some IDE / better editor :)
19:23:30  <DJNekkid> action7/9, contitiontype 0D/0E (availability of railtype)... Is that a pos. in the RTT or the 'real' thing? (i.e. "xxxx" or "00")
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19:24:26  <frosch123> DJNekkid: a label
19:24:45  <DJNekkid> oki :)
19:25:07  <DJNekkid> thanx mate :D
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19:57:50  <supermop> hello
19:58:58  <Alberth> hello
19:59:38  <__ln__> hello
20:00:30  <Chrill> bai
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20:00:42  <supermop> how is everyone?
20:01:03  <Wolf01> different
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20:03:07  <Terkhen> the same
20:04:15  <__ln__> as anyone
20:04:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "you are unique, just like everyone else"
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20:30:21  <krinn> hi all
20:30:49  <krinn> no questions today :)
20:31:35  <MapperOG> alright!
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20:47:59  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22256 /trunk/os/rpm/ (openttd-rpmlintrc openttd.changes openttd.spec): -Update [FS#3375]: RPM spec file (Ammler)
20:48:49  <Ammler> danke schön :-)
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20:49:28  <Rubidium> what? Throwing shoes to me?
20:50:11  <Rubidium> hmm, or am I a shoe?
20:50:29  <Ammler> oh, still "English only"
20:50:31  <SmatZ> :P
20:50:35  <Ammler> stupid channel
20:50:47  <SmatZ> Ammler: #openttdcoop has English only too
20:50:53  <Ammler> shht
20:50:58  <SmatZ> :)
20:51:14  <Rubidium> Ammler: ö -> oe for those that fail to find the umlaut
20:51:20  <Rubidium> right?
20:51:34  <Ammler> Rubidium: indeed :-D
20:51:35  <Rubidium> makes it "schoen", which is "shoe" in Dutch
20:51:46  <SmatZ> oh
20:51:54  <Rubidium> in any case... had to shoehorn the patch in :(
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21:15:42  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22257 /branches/1.1/ (54 files in 4 dirs): [1.1] -Backport from trunk: language updates
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21:17:52  <DanMacK> Hey all
21:19:08  <supermop> hi dan
21:26:29  <supermop> is andy around?
21:26:37  <supermop> had an idea for heqs trams
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21:29:31  <planetmaker> supermop: create a ticket at the bug tracker :-)
21:29:45  <supermop> tiny mail refits
21:29:58  <supermop> like the chicago tunnel company railroad
21:32:36  <supermop> or basically the ability to refit the trams to very short trains, for almost any cargo
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21:39:34  <supermop> also one of these would be fun:
21:39:35  <supermop> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrjorgen/2373845/
21:39:51  <supermop> not reall 'heavy' in any sense of the word
21:39:54  <supermop> really
21:40:11  <DanMacK> That'd be for the LEQS :P
21:40:23  <DanMacK> Capacity - 1 crate of goods
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21:51:29  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: so you can transport exactly 1 supply per month? :p
21:52:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i have an idea: why not apply the same loading time calculation to road vehicles like for trains, when the station is not long enough?
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22:29:08  <supermop> i think that needs a lot more station work
22:29:19  <supermop> like new ports
22:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> how is that related?
22:31:47  <supermop> i was under the impression that it will allow ports, airports and road stations to be more flexible
22:32:06  <supermop> so you could essentially have a platform length for road stops
22:32:24  <Eddi|zuHause> that may be, but you can still find out the length of the platform by counting the adjacent road stops in the current system.
22:32:47  <supermop> hmm
22:33:24  <supermop> also i am not sure if RVs count as actually being long for things other than blocking the next RV behind them
22:34:36  <Eddi|zuHause> they have a length for moving etc. it's the same as an articulated rail vehicle. i don't see a problem there
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22:36:09  <supermop> if a long rv stops at the first stop, blocking 3 other stops behind it, is it aware that it is also occupying those stops?
22:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure it does
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22:37:53  <supermop> so is some extra thing in the newgrf spec all that is needed?
22:38:23  <Eddi|zuHause> no. has nothing to do with the newgrf spec
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22:40:02  <Yexo> <supermop> if a long rv stops at the first stop, blocking 3 other stops behind it, is it aware that it is also occupying those stops? <- not sure about that, but that's irrelevant
22:41:16  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: although the idea is not original, I like it
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23:05:43  <supermop> brb
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23:13:01  <Terkhen> good night
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23:52:36  <krinn> good night
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