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00:01:00 <DanMacK> ahh yeah 00:01:08 <DanMacK> it is kinda creepy isn't it 00:07:59 *** perk111 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd 00:08:12 *** perk11 [~perk11@sR-UN-2.izmaylovo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:09:31 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:15:39 *** welshdragon [~dragon@anubis.millsie.net] has left #openttd [Leaving] 00:21:31 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:21:54 *** welshdragon [~dragon@anubis.millsie.net] has joined #openttd 00:24:19 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:40:07 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.18.113.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:20 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.18.113.46] has joined #openttd 00:47:26 *** murr4y [~murray@168.84-48-69.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:47:26 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.18.113.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48:42 *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:51:26 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.18.113.46] has joined #openttd 00:58:43 *** murr4y [~murray@168.84-48-69.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 00:58:43 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.18.113.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:25 <confound> with nars and any other set that has multiple models of a given engine, am I stuck manually upgrading them? 01:01:31 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:54 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.18.113.46] has joined #openttd 01:07:38 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.12.7.215] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 01:13:15 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.18.113.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. because they are doing it wrong. 01:15:35 *** Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.18.113.46] has joined #openttd 01:15:40 <confound> blah. thanks 01:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the common workaround is to replace everything to another (similar) engine and then back again in the next wave 01:17:51 <confound> that's what I was planning on doing 01:17:56 <confound> though it's kind of terrible. 01:23:59 *** perk111 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 01:29:01 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:31:04 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has joined #openttd 01:41:34 <Wolf01> 'night 01:41:37 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host193-160-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 02:02:32 <Eddi|zuHause> man this OzTrans guy is a worse control freak than MB... 02:03:06 <supermop> yeah 02:03:29 <supermop> most of the can set thread is like that 02:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i just skimmed parts of it... and ran across a line like "you can't use these bridges outside of this pack" 02:10:26 <supermop> there seems to be a lot of resistance to pretty basic ottd features 02:10:38 * DanMacK doesn't agree with that, but is kind of going with the flow right now 02:11:06 <DanMacK> I've tried talking to him and he just gets pissy 02:11:19 <supermop> don't agree with ottd features, or don't think that there is resistance/backlash 02:12:21 <DanMacK> ahh well... I just draw now 02:12:30 <DanMacK> Night all 02:12:33 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@bas8-london14-1279480034.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 02:13:11 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> man this OzTrans guy is a worse control freak than MB... <-- that's not new 02:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i know. i just wanted to say it outloud 02:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm also pretty sure it's not the first time i said that :p 02:16:24 <supermop> I wonder if I should draw, or work more on my timetable game 02:17:07 <supermop> or code, i am way behind on that 02:33:37 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:41:31 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:42:52 *** Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 02:48:34 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-26-84.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:53:06 *** JOHNSHEPARD 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*** George is now known as Guest50 07:08:29 *** George|2 is now known as George 07:09:46 *** andythenorth [~andy@80.229.121.87] has joined #openttd 07:11:15 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe35dc00-187.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 07:12:09 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:13:48 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:19:35 *** andythenorth [~andy@80.229.121.87] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 07:24:54 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:27:41 *** Wolfsherz [~Wolfsherz@p57A6F6BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:28:01 *** Wolfsherz [~Wolfsherz@p57A6F6BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 07:29:31 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-118-121.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:52 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-118-121.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 07:31:17 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:34:45 *** andythenorth [~andy@80.229.121.87] has joined #openttd 07:36:37 *** Ruudjah [~opera@86.93.109.194] has joined #openttd 07:44:21 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 07:47:09 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:47:12 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:50:28 *** Chrill [Chrill@ip68-8-120-178.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 07:59:54 <andythenorth> mornings 08:00:15 <dihedral> good morning 08:01:04 <Alberth> good morning 08:42:24 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC24DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:45:32 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:50:13 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:55 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 08:53:20 *** ar3k [~ident@ebw245.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 08:57:07 *** ranjiid [~me@dslb-188-097-244-243.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:59:31 <ranjiid> hi, a question: lets say I have written a new member function in struct ship say x(). when I have a general 'Vehicle *v', and then do 'Ship *s = (Ship*) v;' and then try to 's->x()', I get: 08:59:58 <ranjiid> an error for invalid use of incomplete type struct Ship. How do I get around that ? 09:00:44 *** ar3kaw [~ident@eca69.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:01:46 *** MinchinWeb [~4e7e25bf@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 09:06:35 <Alberth> #include the definition of Ship 09:07:22 <ranjiid> ouch ... so obvious, thanks 09:11:22 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B5A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:13:11 <Terkhen> good morning 09:15:24 <Terkhen> SmatZ: and the match was taking place in my city, but I don't like football much 09:17:34 <dihedral> cheers Terkhen - me neither :-P 09:20:37 <dihedral> brb 09:20:41 *** dihedral [~dih@znc.noaddedsugar.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:53 *** dihedral [~dih@znc.noaddedsugar.net] has joined #openttd 09:21:05 *** ranjiid [~me@dslb-188-097-244-243.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: ranjiid] 09:21:34 * andythenorth does ponder 09:21:50 <andythenorth> should it be possible to make money by starting a game with a few trams hauling coal? 09:22:13 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host193-160-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 09:22:21 <Wolf01> 'morning 09:22:29 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 09:22:38 <dihedral> hello Wolf01 09:22:38 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I usually do that when playing with road vehicles only 09:22:58 <planetmaker> moin 09:23:02 <Terkhen> hi planetmaker 09:23:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: why not? 09:23:30 <planetmaker> would be pointless, if they made no money 09:25:34 <dihedral> hello pm 09:26:07 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:26:25 <andythenorth> that the trams make money, but not enough to cover loan interest and property maint-en 09:26:31 <andythenorth> maintenance 09:26:47 * andythenorth has interrupted ]][' 09:26:51 <andythenorth> typing due to babies 09:27:07 <andythenorth> if I make them too profitable, 09:27:16 <andythenorth> it's a problem for balance against trains 09:30:01 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:30:10 <planetmaker> Well. Trams are sort of trains, aren't they? 09:30:24 *** amkoroew1 [~Heinz@p5B1046D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:30:30 <planetmaker> what makes trains more profitable are the larger capacity and higher speed 09:30:38 <Terkhen> hmm... I remember making money with them, but maybe it was before HEQS costs were tweaked 09:30:43 <planetmaker> which is not of importance for short routes 09:36:20 *** amkoroew [~Heinz@p5B102618.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:38:15 <andythenorth> hmm 09:38:27 <andythenorth> it helps profit if I don't make stupid mistakes in my test game :P 09:39:02 <andythenorth> I need super-fast-ffwd 09:40:43 <Terkhen> get a faster pc :) 09:41:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth: resize the window, or minimize it 09:41:41 <Terkhen> disable animations 09:41:42 <planetmaker> and switch off full details and animation 09:41:59 <andythenorth> done 09:42:01 <andythenorth> thanks 09:42:26 <planetmaker> just don't forget - like myself - to enable full details and animation when testing sprites ;-) 09:42:42 <planetmaker> those are annoying mistakes which otherwise creep in ;-) 09:42:46 <andythenorth> "shame it's not multi-threaded" :P 09:43:06 <andythenorth> it's using 94% of CPU 09:43:19 <andythenorth> which is quite efficient 09:43:35 <andythenorth> I have about 22% idle though 09:43:57 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:43:59 <andythenorth> hmm 09:44:08 <andythenorth> so I have three trams, and I'm losing about £2k per year net 09:44:44 <andythenorth> I have enough loan left to buy about another 100 trams and build routes 09:44:54 <andythenorth> I reckon that would cover the interest :P 09:45:20 <andythenorth> looking at amortisation - a tram would repay it's purchase cost in ~10 years 09:56:36 *** MazurHadr is now known as Mazur 10:18:51 *** Krusen [~as.if@89.184.153.221] has joined #openttd 10:22:40 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 10:34:04 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 10:40:46 *** JOHN-SHEPARD_ [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-181-204.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 10:40:55 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-118-121.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:50:37 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 10:57:01 *** sla_ro|master is now known as sla_ro|bulletstorm 11:03:31 *** Aylomen [~chatzilla@DSL01.212.114.233.72.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openttd 11:12:20 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has joined #openttd 11:15:20 <DanMacK> Hey all 11:35:22 <andythenorth> hey DanMacK 11:38:58 *** ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd 11:40:09 <andythenorth> grr 11:40:17 <andythenorth> can't make my trams expensive enough :( 11:40:38 <andythenorth> I'd have to reset base cost across HEQS 11:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't balance trams properly as long as the refit cost for a medium tram is the same as the refit cost for a long tram 11:43:37 <andythenorth> I'll overlook that for now 11:43:43 <andythenorth> it's a change to newgrf spec 11:43:48 <andythenorth> and one I'm hoping doesn't happen 11:43:55 <andythenorth> implies a *lot* of work by newgrf authors 11:45:56 * andythenorth is not convinced by loading speed of articulated rvs 11:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> a newgrf refit cost callback, input is the current cargo type, cargo subtype, new cargo type and new cargo subtype 11:46:11 <andythenorth> bleargh 11:46:18 <andythenorth> imagine the varaction 2s for the mappings :( 11:46:19 <andythenorth> horrible 11:46:20 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.12.7.215] has joined #openttd 11:46:28 <andythenorth> @32! 11:46:32 <andythenorth> @calc 32! 11:46:32 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1) 11:46:54 <andythenorth> petrol -> milk costs £xyz 11:47:00 <andythenorth> petrol -> sheep costs £pdq 11:47:08 <andythenorth> sheep -> milk costs £abc 11:47:17 <andythenorth> bleargh 11:47:19 <andythenorth> :D 11:47:30 <andythenorth> trams unload too fast 11:47:35 <andythenorth> I could drop the loading speed I guess 11:52:04 <andythenorth> it's slightly annoying that clone respects cargo refit subtypes 11:52:07 <andythenorth> but auto-replace doesn't 11:55:16 <DanMacK> Hey Andy 11:58:38 <Yexo> <andythenorth> @calc 32! <- it wouldn't be that big, 'just' 32*32 (for 32 cargos) 11:59:44 *** st6 [~srissa@cs.joensuu.fi] has joined #openttd 11:59:59 <st6> i just downloaded openttd and the mousescroll zoom is not working 12:00:09 <st6> it worked in the 0.7 version tho =) 12:00:31 <st6> is there a setting for it somewhere? 12:02:14 <dihedral> possibly 12:02:18 *** Knall [~weechat@178-191-47-80.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 12:02:38 <dihedral> settings are found, where they usually are, in advanced settings, or in the openttd.cfg file 12:02:45 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd 12:02:46 *** Knall [~weechat@178-191-47-80.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 12:04:11 <st6> function scroll wheel: zoom map 12:04:16 <st6> yet it doesnt work 12:04:34 <st6> it worked few minutes ago with the 0.7 version 12:04:38 <andythenorth> @calc 32^2 12:04:38 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number. 12:04:43 <andythenorth> @calc 32*32 12:04:43 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1024 12:04:55 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 12:12:04 *** sla_ro|bulletstorm is now known as sla_ro|master 12:12:50 <andythenorth> planetmaker: a parameter for this is trivial? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1967 12:13:16 <andythenorth> I would just change the climate mask for each vehicle, depending on the value of PARAM_X 12:13:26 <andythenorth> but I'm not sure how to do that quite 12:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> with an action 6? 12:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also just skip the action 3 with an action 7/9 12:15:34 <andythenorth> safer to change the climate availability 12:15:44 <andythenorth> if the player changes the param during game... 12:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> possible 12:16:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, then use an action 6 to modify the mask 12:16:48 <andythenorth> one line of code 12:16:50 <andythenorth> ish 12:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, per vehicle 12:18:35 <andythenorth> action 6? 12:18:41 <andythenorth> or action 7 skipping an action 0 12:18:42 <andythenorth> ? 12:19:03 <Yexo> do all your vehicles have the same climate mask currently? 12:19:25 <andythenorth> I believe so 12:19:29 <Yexo> if so, I'd make one parameter contain either 0 or the correct climate mask depending on a user parameter and make the action6 unconditional 12:19:49 <andythenorth> ok 12:19:52 <andythenorth> lets make it so :P 12:20:09 <andythenorth> I have to split them into n groups, so there'll be n parameters 12:20:12 <andythenorth> but the pattern is the same 12:20:54 <andythenorth> the action 6 goes before or after the action 0? 12:21:19 <andythenorth> or they can all go together? 12:21:35 <andythenorth> i.e. I could put all the vehicle IDs into a single cpp template file for this? 12:27:53 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d820c51.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the action 6 must be directly before the action 0 12:33:36 * andythenorth sometimes wishes CPP had 'with [list of defines] use #include' 12:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> because action 6 modifies the next line 12:34:07 <andythenorth> ok I'll template that in 12:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean? you can put the #include in an #ifdef? 12:34:44 <andythenorth> I mean an iterator of some kind 12:34:57 <andythenorth> nvm 12:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. 12:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> right 12:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that can be done as well, but too complicated things would take more than one pass 12:35:47 <andythenorth> not needed in this case anyway 12:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and the concept you search is not "with" but "foreach" 12:36:43 <andythenorth> ok 12:38:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, it's relatively easy. But I guess you got your answer already :-) 12:39:26 <andythenorth> I have to use the offset precisely? 12:39:31 <andythenorth> not the property number? 12:39:44 <planetmaker> yes 12:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the offset. action6 doesn't know about properties 12:39:53 <andythenorth> that's understandable, but very fragile :P 12:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you should switch to nml ;) 12:40:16 <andythenorth> I could use a second action 0? 12:40:24 <andythenorth> specifically to set climate mask? 12:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 12:40:41 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have as many action 0 for the same vehicle as you like 12:43:01 * andythenorth wtfs 12:43:06 <andythenorth> I have disabled all trams somehow :D 12:44:01 <andythenorth> buy menu doesn't respect pinning :P 12:47:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: would you help me with the param elements? 12:47:50 <andythenorth> think the action 6 works 12:48:19 * andythenorth only has 0.5 typing hands free 12:48:20 <planetmaker> yes, I'll add tonight during the football match 12:49:30 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:51:11 <andythenorth> I'll template in the action 6 stuff now 13:02:33 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff133.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:10:49 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:12:55 *** whitey_ [whitey@creep.bur.st] has joined #openttd 13:13:23 *** whitey_ is now known as Lachie 13:20:28 *** sla_ro|vista [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 13:21:20 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:21:47 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker: you did not exactly read the suggested license text, did you? :p 13:22:03 <frosch123> hmm, actually pm might have 13:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> ;) 13:22:42 * andythenorth sees someone else being smacked between the eyes by vehicle prop 1D 13:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i may have been a little too subtle ;) 13:23:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but pm is right, he kinda is like a week early 13:26:01 <frosch123> should be a nice license for the next i* port :) 13:29:27 <andythenorth> action 14 is somehow cached? 13:29:42 <frosch123> you need to rescan grfs 13:29:46 <andythenorth> I have to restart to see changes 13:29:50 <andythenorth> rescan failed for some reason 13:30:40 <frosch123> hmm, if "rescan" does not work, then it might only check for new files 13:31:05 <frosch123> ("rescan"!="reload", just in case) 13:37:41 *** robotboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:38:04 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:1cee:44ed:3a23:e9ba] has joined #openttd 13:38:07 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:39:45 <andythenorth> hmm 13:39:50 <andythenorth> maybe I can do this without planetmaker 13:39:54 <andythenorth> I have action 6 13:39:58 <andythenorth> I have action 14 13:40:05 <andythenorth> now all I need is some way to tie them together 13:40:09 <andythenorth> any clues? 13:40:20 <andythenorth> specific to this: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1967 13:40:33 <andythenorth> the action 14 parameters are bools 13:41:09 <andythenorth> I need action 14 bool value 1 to give me 0F for my action 6 13:42:03 <glx> and what if it's 0 ? 13:42:15 <andythenorth> 0 13:42:19 <andythenorth> 00h 13:42:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: is there already any code? 13:42:57 <glx> you could just do bool * 0x0F 13:43:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: in the HEQS repo 13:43:13 <glx> maybe with something to ensure it's 0 or 1 13:43:23 <andythenorth> sprites/nfo/templates/group_availability/rv_availability 13:43:25 <glx> or test for != 0 13:43:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: i mean, do you already have the a14? 13:43:32 <andythenorth> yes 13:46:02 <andythenorth> if I somehow AND with 0F, does that work 13:46:09 <andythenorth> then I get 00h or 0Fh? 13:47:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: add a action 9 to skip the action 6 depending on the parameters 13:47:33 <glx> won't work with AND 13:47:53 <frosch123> then put one value in the action 0, and put the alternative value in action 6 13:47:55 <glx> 1 AND F = 1 13:47:58 <andythenorth> here's my stub code so far 13:47:58 <andythenorth> http://pastebin.com/KmYukuzq 13:48:08 <andythenorth> THIS_VEHICLE_GROUP provides the parameter number 13:48:50 <andythenorth> could just use two action 0s? skipping conditionally? 13:49:18 <frosch123> or that :) 13:49:21 <andythenorth> hmm 13:49:33 <andythenorth> that's action 7 I guess 13:49:52 <glx> or 9 (never remember which one to use) 13:49:57 <frosch123> if you use two aciton 0 then action 7, if you are going for action6 then action 9 13:50:36 <andythenorth> if players can change this in game? 13:50:38 <andythenorth> which is better? 13:50:45 <andythenorth> or is that not possible... 13:50:51 <frosch123> that makes no difference 13:51:04 <frosch123> you can only change parameters when reloading newgrfs 13:51:25 <andythenorth> so the activation / initialisation distinction doesn't matter here? 13:51:54 <frosch123> the parameters do not change between these phases 13:52:05 <frosch123> if you change the parameters, everything is loaded from scratch 13:52:07 <andythenorth> so I need an action 7 to check a parameter... 13:52:12 <andythenorth> maybe I can copy one from somewhere... 13:52:25 <frosch123> it is not that hard :p 13:52:49 <andythenorth> just need to know which var to check 13:53:07 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@206.191.69.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:54:00 <andythenorth> hmm 13:54:09 <andythenorth> can't see how to specify which param to check 13:54:36 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC24DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 13:54:49 <andythenorth> do I just use the parameter number? 13:54:58 <andythenorth> are all params < 80h ? 13:55:46 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/enabledisableparam.diff 13:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: params 00-7F can be set by user, params 80-FF are internal values 13:58:45 <andythenorth> he 13:58:46 <andythenorth> works 13:58:48 <andythenorth> thanks 13:59:11 <frosch123> cool :) 14:00:49 <frosch123> btw. make sure you set the parameters to "enabled" by default (using action D, not only 14), so you keep compatibility with old games, which most likely did not set higher parameters 14:02:46 <andythenorth> hmm 14:02:55 <andythenorth> I'd better look into that 14:03:38 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.224.180.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 14:04:07 <andythenorth> my old savegame is compatible 14:04:10 <andythenorth> don't know why... 14:04:22 <andythenorth> params are not set 14:04:34 <frosch123> you need a game from before you added the stuff to a14 14:04:36 <andythenorth> ah 14:04:41 <andythenorth> I have that 14:04:50 <andythenorth> but it explicitly checks 0 for disabling 14:04:53 <frosch123> or a game from 1.0.x whcih does not know a14 :) 14:05:05 <andythenorth> if param is not set...it's not 0 (anymore) 14:05:15 <andythenorth> that was an issue in FIRS once IIRC 14:05:27 <andythenorth> or I recall wrong perhaps 14:05:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: but you use parameters 20+ in initialization.pnfo 14:05:49 <frosch123> using higher parameters causes all parameters before to be defined 14:06:26 <andythenorth> I'll look into action D 14:07:37 <andythenorth> 6 * 9 0D GROUP_TRAMS \D- 00 FF \dx00000001 14:07:41 <andythenorth> ?? 14:08:17 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:08:55 <andythenorth> hmm 14:09:01 <andythenorth> that's set them to 0 14:09:58 <andythenorth> copy and paste is not a good way to guess :D 14:15:23 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:39 <frosch123> http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/23/article-1369307-0B4B564300000578-813_634x950.jpg <- somone knows, why the earthquake cares about the road painting and follows them? 14:18:09 * andythenorth has made a working-ish action D 14:18:12 <andythenorth> but is puzzled 14:18:26 <andythenorth> so the value must be != 0, because my vehicles show 14:18:38 <andythenorth> but the newgrf param window shows it as 0 (in ottd 0.7.4) 14:18:59 <andythenorth> and setting 0 doesn't hide the vehicles 14:19:32 <frosch123> did you set the action d flag "only apply if not defined yet"? 14:19:42 <andythenorth> nope 14:19:49 <andythenorth> that would be the issue I guess 14:19:53 <SmatZ> frosch123: because the road is made with each road line separated, so there is a crack between lanes? 14:20:05 <SmatZ> so the ground breaks easier there 14:20:08 <andythenorth> can't escape adding the 80 ? 14:20:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: no :/ 14:20:33 <frosch123> SmatZ: might be :) 14:21:08 <andythenorth> hmm 14:21:12 <andythenorth> this is somewhat fail 14:21:14 <andythenorth> :( 14:22:24 <andythenorth> the params are defaulting to 0 14:22:34 <andythenorth> they are created, but with the wrong value :( 14:22:35 <andythenorth> -1 * 5 0D GROUP_TRAMS 80 FF FF \dx00000001 14:22:39 <andythenorth> this in ottd 0.7.4 still 14:23:16 <frosch123> where did you put that line? 14:23:32 <frosch123> you need to do it before the stuff with params 20+ is done 14:23:41 <andythenorth> initialization.pnfo 14:23:51 <andythenorth> above the params 20+ stuff 14:24:19 * andythenorth will commit 14:24:26 <andythenorth> or past 14:25:15 <andythenorth> http://pastebin.com/CYgwEc84 14:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: SmatZ is right: it's the weakest point due to the construction method 14:30:04 <planetmaker> frosch123: I first answered, then read the license, then added the 1st April sentence ;-) 14:30:17 <frosch123> make: *** No rule to make target `../templates/group_availability/train_availability.tnfo', needed by `heqs.nfo'. Stop. 14:30:25 <andythenorth> bah 14:30:39 <andythenorth> I'll commit 14:30:45 <andythenorth> it's not 100% working, but not broken 14:31:21 <andythenorth> cooked chicken, 6 days out of date: eat / don't eat? 14:32:00 <frosch123> how much are 6 days compared to the total age? 14:32:10 <andythenorth> not sure 14:32:11 <andythenorth> smells ok 14:32:27 * andythenorth will eat, report back later 14:32:53 <Zuu> As far as you cooked it before the "end date" it should be fine to eat it for a few more days. 14:33:12 <Zuu> Also depends on if it was a frozen chicken or raw checken I suppose. 14:33:40 <__ln__> Food poisoning is usually not fatal. 14:34:51 <andythenorth> boring though 14:36:50 <frosch123> hmm, do strings liks "512x" really need a german translation? :p 14:36:59 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:37:25 <planetmaker> :-) No 14:37:45 <planetmaker> but without they count as untranslated 14:37:59 <frosch123> does someone check that? 14:38:17 <planetmaker> where? 14:38:29 <frosch123> heqs 14:38:30 <frosch123> a14 14:38:46 <planetmaker> there most probably at most andy or myself maybe 14:39:07 <andythenorth> not me ;) 14:39:08 <planetmaker> though... if it uses the same thing as firs. Then it gets annoying 14:39:37 <planetmaker> because then the check script will report it always as untranslated. Which is... annoying ;-) 14:39:55 <planetmaker> when checking languages 14:40:11 <frosch123> oh dear, when you start 1.0.x the newgrf window comes as a shock :s 14:41:51 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: what's the problem? the resulting nfo looks fine and it works fine for me in 1.0 14:42:14 <andythenorth> hmm 14:42:20 <andythenorth> odd results in 0.7.4 14:42:26 <andythenorth> vehicles are hidden 14:42:35 <andythenorth> i.e. params default to 0 14:43:43 <planetmaker> yes. It doesn't know a14, thus default is 0 14:44:00 <frosch123> it also works fine in 0.7 14:44:05 <andythenorth> ho 14:44:09 <andythenorth> ship it! 14:44:10 <frosch123> planetmaker: we added action d to set defaults 14:44:22 <planetmaker> frosch123: but not defaults != 0 w/o a14 and ^ 14:44:30 <planetmaker> :-) 14:45:12 <frosch123> http://pastebin.com/CYgwEc84 <- planetmaker 14:45:26 <frosch123> [15:44] <planetmaker> frosch123: but not defaults != 0 w/o a14 and ^ <- what? 14:45:54 <planetmaker> you wrote that while I typed ;-) Thus "... and what you said" 14:46:04 <frosch123> ok :) 14:47:33 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 14:48:04 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B5A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:11 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B5A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:55:12 *** Wolfsherz [~Wolfsherz@p57A6F6BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:58:52 *** Wolfsherz [~Wolfsherz@p57A6F6BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 15:03:07 <MinchinWeb> What does 'IIRC' mean? 15:04:07 <frosch123> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=iirc 15:05:39 <MinchinWeb> thanks 15:32:23 <andythenorth> does this issue really matter? 15:32:27 <andythenorth> I might bounce it...http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2322 15:33:19 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-177-118.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 15:35:14 <supermop> what issue? 15:35:47 <andythenorth> the one linked 15:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the one with "issue" in the link name ;) 15:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: cb36 sounds like the right place 15:36:31 <SmatZ> Fatal error: can't create ai/ai_scanner.o: Read-only file system 15:36:33 <SmatZ> humm 15:36:39 <frosch123> cb 36 weight is available sinc r21058 15:36:46 <andythenorth> i can do it 15:36:50 <SmatZ> # LANG=C mount -o remount,rw /home 15:36:52 <SmatZ> mount: you must specify the filesystem type 15:36:53 <andythenorth> but do I care? 15:36:57 * SmatZ backupped his files and is going to reboot 15:37:04 <SmatZ> I wonder what broke :P 15:37:19 <frosch123> remount read-only on error? 15:37:32 <SmatZ> well, it's mounted 15:37:49 <SmatZ> but now something broke and it states it's a ro fs 15:37:55 <SmatZ> and it can't remount to rw 15:38:30 <frosch123> /dev/sda1 on /usr type ext2 (rw,noatime,errors=remount-ro) <- there are mount options to remount the fs ro when there is trouble 15:39:04 <SmatZ> /dev/sdb5 on /home type reiserfs (rw,noatime) 15:39:19 <SmatZ> mount doesn't show any "errors=", but maybe that's the default 15:40:07 <SmatZ> REISERFS warning: reiserfs-5090 is_tree_node: node level 18527 does not match to the expected one 1 15:40:08 <SmatZ> REISERFS error (device sdb5): vs-5150 search_by_key: invalid format found in block 110428. Fsck? 15:40:10 <SmatZ> REISERFS (device sdb5): Remounting filesystem read-only 15:40:11 <SmatZ> right :) 15:42:08 * andythenorth rejects the tram issue 15:42:11 <SmatZ> http://pastie.org/1718321 related log 15:42:12 <andythenorth> as no-one cares :D 15:43:55 <SmatZ> nice the systems remounts to ro when there are problems on HDD, so there is a chance the damage to data is as little as possible :) 15:47:19 <glx> prevents accidental overwriting 15:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> but when the reiser tree is wrong, you are seriously fucked up 15:51:11 <SmatZ> thanks :P 15:51:17 <Eddi|zuHause> better copy everything off the drive and reformat than trying to rebuild the tree 15:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> rebuilding the reiser tree can have all sorts of side effects, like replacing perfectly good files with older versions of the same file 15:52:38 <SmatZ> interesting 15:52:38 <andythenorth> bbl 15:52:45 *** andythenorth [~andy@80.229.121.87] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 15:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> but do I care? <-- yes, i care 15:56:58 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, too little, too late. 15:57:01 <SmatZ> :) 15:57:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but some things should be done right the first time... 16:14:24 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:24:29 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:41 *** D_Cent [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-088-081.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #openttd 16:39:55 <D_Cent> hey friends 16:40:12 <D_Cent> could you pls help me with an issue? 16:40:20 *** Thorpheus [~Thorpheus@mo4-84-90-117-114.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd 16:40:34 <planetmaker> @topic get -3 16:40:34 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask 16:40:58 <D_Cent> i am playing multiplayer against someone else and want my train to stop at his station - is that possible? 16:41:10 <planetmaker> not in default openttd 16:41:24 <planetmaker> there's a terribly outdated infrastructure sharing branch floating around 16:41:48 <D_Cent> ok, thanks 16:42:00 <planetmaker> welcome 16:44:53 <planetmaker> D_Cent, the only way to exchange goods in default openttd with another company is to use the same oil rig as transfer station ;-) 16:46:37 <D_Cent> alright, thanks! 16:47:11 *** D_Cent [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-088-081.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: playing openttd] 16:50:59 *** andythenorth [~andy@80.229.121.87] has joined #openttd 16:51:00 *** staN [~Miranda@p4FD85CEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: don't give people an advice how to trigger corner case bugs! :p 17:01:13 <supermop> what is the difference between 'edge case' and 'corner case'? 17:01:28 <andythenorth> wiki 17:01:47 <andythenorth> edge case occurs when just one parameter is at max / out of condition 17:01:59 <andythenorth> corner case only occurs when two parameters are at max / out of condition 17:02:19 <andythenorth> e.g. your power plant gets hit by a tsunami && the diesel generators have a fault 17:02:22 <andythenorth> etc 17:02:50 <andythenorth> many severe failures are corner cases 17:03:05 <andythenorth> engineering is moderately good at spotting edge cases, but not so good at corner cases 17:05:14 <MinchinWeb> so you hope the 'factors of safety' are high enough! 17:06:45 <MinchinWeb> after studying engineering for many years, I remember being surprise at first at how much 'calculated hand waving' was involved 17:06:51 <MinchinWeb> :) 17:07:10 <andythenorth> 'how do you know that's the right number?' 17:07:17 <andythenorth> "that's the number where it doesn't fall down" 17:07:23 <andythenorth> "how do you know if doesn't fall down" 17:07:29 <andythenorth> "well it hasn't yet" 17:07:36 <MinchinWeb> lol...basically 17:08:14 <MinchinWeb> and when it does fall down, you go 'oops' and bump up the number on everything from there out and cross your fingers again :) 17:08:55 <supermop> so there is no differentiation between say 2 or 4 factors being out of anticipated ranges? 17:09:04 <supermop> in terms of terminology? 17:10:44 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:04 <andythenorth> BULK is such a broken cargo 17:14:08 <andythenorth> class 17:14:29 <andythenorth> it's completely stupid that pretty much every other cargo ends up as piece goods or liquids 17:14:58 <supermop> yeah 17:15:17 <supermop> cargo classes are a bit of a let down right now 17:15:43 <andythenorth> they're broken by such a small stupid amount 17:15:58 <andythenorth> and only one man in germany is allowed to decide what they are 17:16:01 <andythenorth> it's very frustrating 17:16:20 <andythenorth> (on the scale of "things that don't matter much in real life") 17:16:41 <andythenorth> how are they implemented in ottd? 17:16:50 <andythenorth> are they anything other than an agreed convention? 17:27:01 *** Thorpheus [~Thorpheus@mo4-84-90-117-114.netvisao.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 17:27:03 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-127-87.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 17:31:14 <frosch123> passenger, mail and special are important to ottd, the rest does not matter 17:33:06 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-54-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:33:18 <frosch123> anyway, there are already tons of subtile cargo classes, like covered and oversized 17:33:23 <frosch123> does it really need more? 17:35:00 *** Lars_ [~Lars@4607ds4-ynoe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 17:35:31 <Lars_> Anyone here? 17:35:45 <frosch123> around 131 17:35:54 <Lars_> But active ;) 17:37:56 <Yexo> obviously yes ;) 17:38:08 <Lars_> ;) 17:38:18 <Yexo> @topic get -3 17:38:18 <DorpsGek> Yexo: Don't ask to ask, just ask 17:38:32 <Lars_> Well, I have a question about developing :) 17:38:37 <supermop> what if the cargo classes instead described the type of container that would usually hold that substance, would that be more intuitive? 17:38:51 <supermop> like 'hopper' and 'flatbed' 17:40:51 <andythenorth> all that's missing is one that has been discussed endlessly, 'can be poured' 17:40:59 <andythenorth> BULK is supposed to cover this 17:41:01 <Lars_> Would it be possible with a realistic amount of work to code a combined tunnel/station; a tunnel which has platforms in its entire length? 17:41:43 <Yexo> possible yes, but not without making a huge hack out of it 17:42:28 <Yexo> the 'good' way to code that would be to make underground tiles flexible, but that requires (big) changes to the way the map is stored, which means a huge amount of work 17:42:39 <Lars_> I know that. 17:42:52 <Yexo> michi_cc has a branch for that, although I don't know about the current status of it 17:43:23 <andythenorth> can anyone explain what cargo class logs should be? 17:43:36 <Lars_> But thinking more on a new tunnel which is a station for its entire length, or can be placed between to platform to form a station like Berlin Hbf. 17:43:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: "Bulk freight (any non-packaged cargo suitable for pouring, e.g. coal, grain, ore, cement, ...) " <- the spec definition does not sound "bulky" t all 17:44:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: oversized maybe 17:44:17 <andythenorth> maybe :P 17:44:23 <andythenorth> if they're really big :P 17:44:25 <Yexo> Lars_: possible, sure, but even that would already be quite a bit of work 17:44:35 <Yexo> it's not something you can code in a single afternoon 17:44:42 <Lars_> I feared that. 17:45:10 <andythenorth> classes are broken for the simple case of things that do go in open wagons (gondolas) and flat beds but *not* in hoppers or vans 17:45:30 <andythenorth> it's possible to fool with 'covered' to exclude the vans, but it's brain-twisting and no-one bothers 17:45:48 <andythenorth> hence most everything defaults to piece goods, broadly negating most of the point of classes 17:46:10 <andythenorth> I am probably arguing with the wrong people though :| 17:46:32 <andythenorth> how does one person get to control a common standard, that's not even tightly coupled to code? 17:47:42 *** flitz [~me@dslb-188-097-242-246.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:48:10 <flitz> a good evening 17:48:15 <Yexo> good evening flitz 17:48:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: it is not as bad as the rail labels :p 17:48:36 <Yexo> andythenorth: it's not so much one person controlling the standard as well as compatibility with older sets making it impossible to change said standard 17:49:05 <andythenorth> a number of the key older sets don't support the standard anyway 17:49:27 <Yexo> so propose a new standard :) 17:49:28 <flitz> out of curiousity, when starting openttd, what was the rationale behind implementing an own vector class ? 17:50:07 <Yexo> not entirely sure, but I think simplicity and known memory requirements 17:50:11 <andythenorth> along with the prop 1D madness, it might be time for new cargo methods? 17:50:41 <frosch123> flitz: the requirement to not copy tons of memory on appending 17:51:09 <frosch123> smallvector returns a pointer on append which you can then use to construct the thing 17:52:34 <frosch123> for std::vector push_back always involves copying data 17:53:15 <flitz> interesting 17:54:29 <frosch123> though i do not know where ottd actually has vectors with large items, and where that starts to have an impact :) 17:55:04 * andythenorth can't think of a better standard for cargos :( 17:55:12 * andythenorth proposes working on stations instead :D 17:55:21 <flitz> at least you know that you have a realiable backend, just in case ;) 17:55:57 *** Lars_ [~Lars@4607ds4-ynoe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:58:47 <supermop> i could brainstorm cargo standards using my relative naiveté 17:59:13 <andythenorth> try 17:59:19 <andythenorth> :D 17:59:40 <frosch123> supermop: take the list of cargos from http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CargoTypes and categorise them 17:59:43 <andythenorth> it has to have an eye to actual implementation I'd guess 17:59:49 <andythenorth> it's not just an argument about labels 18:00:02 <andythenorth> frosch123: is the prop 1D situation so entrenched as to be unsolvable 18:00:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, when "bulk" is already "cargo suitible for pouring", what exactly do you think is missing? 18:00:18 <andythenorth> something to differentiate piece goods further 18:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i could imagine "large grained" (for hoppers) and "fine grained" (for silos) 18:00:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=812365#p812365 18:01:04 <supermop> se thats why i think hopper should be the class 18:01:07 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. (solid) fertilizer would go in silo wagons 18:01:10 <frosch123> still the same, there is a patch (which i do not know whether it still compiles), but noone is interested from the grf pov :) 18:01:22 <andythenorth> I suspect that if covered / sheltered was more accurately used, the problem would be reduced 18:01:23 <supermop> hopper is one class, silo another 18:01:31 <andythenorth> to me they're the same 18:01:41 <supermop> that doesnt bother me 18:01:45 *** staN [~Miranda@p4FD85CEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 18:01:50 <andythenorth> the issue is tricky cargos like scrap metal, wood, sugar cane 18:02:06 <supermop> but if people want to force wheat not being poured into a coal car, 18:02:09 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/refitmask_callback.diff 18:02:14 <andythenorth> sugar cane is impossible to support with classes 18:02:18 <frosch123> r17382 :p 18:02:33 <supermop> well 'bulk' is generic in english as well 18:02:54 <supermop> it can refer to items that are 'bulky' ( a crushed car) 18:03:17 <supermop> or items purchased in bulk (coal or grain) 18:03:49 <andythenorth> how does scrap metal travel irl? 18:04:01 <supermop> the more "bulky" an object is, the less likely you are actually buying and moving it similar to "bulk goods" 18:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: reading the definition above more something like "anything that can be dropped into a wagon by conveyor belt" 18:04:11 <andythenorth> 'flows' 18:04:16 <supermop> scrap metal is wierd, 18:04:21 <frosch123> anyway, need to watch tsl now :p 18:04:35 <supermop> here we see crushed cars on flat beds 18:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's also missing some cargo class for "lightweight" (e.g. straw) 18:05:02 <supermop> but then piles of smaller pieces of metal that are moved in dump trucks 18:05:19 <supermop> still unable to pour through a hopper though, 18:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> something that is not limiting the wagon load by its mass, but by its volume 18:05:46 <supermop> thats then another issue 18:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't put 40t of straw or cotton onto one wagon 18:06:02 <andythenorth> you will never see FIRS scrap metal moving in a dump truck 18:06:09 <supermop> 40 tons of coal and 40 tons or iron ore are very different by volume 18:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i presume sugar cane could fall into that category as well 18:06:19 <andythenorth> unless that dump truck also refits to piece goods 18:06:34 <andythenorth> you will see scrap metal moving in box trucks 18:06:52 <supermop> i think it should be flat beds, andy 18:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: scrap metal is a bad corner case. sheltered/bulk maybe 18:07:25 <andythenorth> supermop: not something I can influence much 18:07:38 <andythenorth> meanwhile cotton (plant fibres) will move by coal hopper 18:07:53 <supermop> but anyway, 40 tons of coal will not fit in a hopper meant to carry 40 tones of iron ore 18:08:03 <andythenorth> sugar beet and sugar cane will also move by coal hopper 18:08:11 <supermop> and if you fill up the 40 ton coal car with ore, it would be too heavy 18:08:26 <supermop> but that is something i can overlook 18:08:39 <andythenorth> some people address that actually 18:08:51 <andythenorth> but the spec for it is inconsistent 18:09:10 <supermop> what if capacity had two parameters? 18:09:16 <supermop> weight and volume? 18:09:18 <andythenorth> there's a cb to set it 18:09:19 <supermop> too complex? 18:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, MB started to handle both weight and volume limits for cargo wagons. but it needs knowing each cargo directly. 18:09:30 <andythenorth> cargos also have a weight / units property 18:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and it completely fails for generic cargo like supplies 18:09:39 <andythenorth> but it's broken 18:10:13 <andythenorth> crates of supplies in FIRS change either weight or size, depending on whether you load ships, RVs, trains, or planes 18:11:12 <andythenorth> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VehicleRefitting 18:11:29 <supermop> what if crate was replacedd with 'pallet' 18:11:42 <andythenorth> same issue 18:11:48 <andythenorth> frosch's diagram explains it :D 18:11:51 <supermop> container or box car holds around 20 pallets 18:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: does not make any difference, it's just a string 18:13:04 <supermop> ok 18:13:38 <supermop> but back to pouring 18:14:00 <supermop> why not just create the label 'pour' 18:15:20 <supermop> the other thing is, i can go to the post office or fedex, and mail someone a box of coal 18:15:38 <supermop> so at some level any car could carry any type of cargo 18:16:48 <Alberth> flitz: C has no vector class 18:19:53 <andythenorth> supermop: we're not allowed to create the label 'pour' 18:20:34 <andythenorth> except by extensive negotiation, and reference to issues discussed long ago in a german forum 18:20:43 <andythenorth> or possibly it's all fine and we'll be allowed 18:20:52 <andythenorth> but I won't know yet until I get a reply 18:21:07 <andythenorth> I dunno 18:21:28 <andythenorth> I like mb, but his control of a spec the rest of us depend on bothers me 18:25:53 *** keoz [~keikoz@141.2.119.208] has joined #openttd 18:27:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a matter of "i invented this whole thing to my own intentions, and suddenly a lot of other people suddenly pop up and have (slightly) different intentions that don't fit properly" 18:27:48 <supermop> why not just invent your own spec 18:28:16 <supermop> if firs, heqs, fish use it, then you will have a decent base 18:30:01 <flitz> Aberth: IIRC, I read that you are using Ansi C++ like it is used by VS, doesn't this use the C++ STL ? 18:30:01 *** JOHN-SHEPARD_ [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-181-204.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:31:58 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-38-169.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 18:33:55 *** Ruudjah [~opera@86.93.109.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:35:57 <supermop> i don't see how anything can be stuck as so hard and fast 18:36:27 <supermop> if people think a new way is better and work to implement it, what is there to stop them? 18:36:53 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 18:38:05 <glx> flitz: STL is not implemented the same by all compilers 18:38:19 <glx> we had some fun with iterators 18:38:59 <Alberth> flitz: C++ is not used so long, C was used much longer 18:39:18 *** staN [~Miranda@p4FD85CEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:39:20 <flitz> ok that is true, I wasn't thinking about openttd not on linux :) 18:40:11 <Alberth> ie somewhere half a year ago I removed struct function pointers as a C-version of methods 18:41:04 <Alberth> Window class was introduced somewhere around 2008 iirc 18:41:21 <Rubidium> WP! :) 18:41:38 <Alberth> WP? 18:41:44 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: it's not that easy. cargo classes are the defining interface between industry sets (ECS, FIRS, PBI) and the vehicle sets (dozens of them) 18:42:45 <Alberth> define a compability mapping? 18:43:22 <Rubidium> #define WP(ptr, str) (*(str*)(ptr)->custom) 18:43:34 <flitz> when first looking into it some things looked confusing at first, like how nested widgets are composed in a window e.g. 18:43:40 <supermop> i know, eddi, but if there is a compelling enough reason it might be worth a shot 18:43:45 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 18:44:34 <supermop> gah i forgot to eat lunch 18:44:58 <Alberth> Rubidium: ah, that was before my time :p 18:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that's the point, andythenorth's rants are not universally viewed as "compelling reason" :) 18:45:12 <supermop> haha 18:45:20 <Alberth> flitz: very similar to other GUI toolkits 18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22276 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt german.txt russian.txt unfinished/frisian.txt): 18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau 18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 61 changes by gjannema 18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by MG 18:45:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf 18:46:33 <supermop> but as the author of both multiple vehicle sets and an industry set, he has more power than the average user to try to act on his compulsions 18:46:56 <Rubidium> Alberth: that's a lie; you were basically the cause to get rid of them 18:47:33 <Alberth> yeah, that's why I never worked with it ;) 18:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that was the time of "turn XYZWindow into a class" commits 18:59:32 <flitz> Alberth: I was used to the Qt-like toolkits before, maybe I was just a bit spoiled by the documentation there :D 19:02:35 *** Aylomen [~chatzilla@DSL01.212.114.233.72.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:34 <Alberth> it has been a few years, but I think layout mostly behaves as with QHBoxLayout and QVBoxLayout 19:05:42 <flitz> yes, the composition hierarchy for subwidgets is very intuitiv 19:07:14 <flitz> when first starting I just took an existing gui and modified it to suit my needs and more or less learned about single components on the fly 19:11:08 <Alberth> widgets are the easy part, getting them connected to the game is pretty much completely custom for every window :) 19:11:56 *** keoz [~keikoz@141.2.119.208] has quit [Quit: keoz] 19:14:46 * andythenorth suspects if pikka was bothered about the classes issue, it would move towards a fix 19:14:58 <andythenorth> not that pikka is magic, he's just better at workable suggestions than me 19:15:03 <andythenorth> I am better at rant 19:15:20 <andythenorth> my understanding is that pikka is quite happy with classes as they stand :| 19:15:34 <Alberth> until he is making cargos he won't consider it a problem 19:15:54 <andythenorth> I like the compatibility mapping suggestion in principle 19:16:39 <andythenorth> as a set author it's not broken 19:16:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I understand your reasons and I think your point. But what about (backward) compatibility? 19:17:00 <andythenorth> 'got a problem?' just use an explicit definition for a cargo with the various props on offer 19:17:17 <andythenorth> but there are only two full industry sets that implement classes afaik 19:17:38 <andythenorth> which is probably why g*orge has had so many debates with mb 19:18:14 <andythenorth> It's easy when you're making vehicle sets, no problem to see, just move on :P 19:18:21 <flitz> Alberth: highly specialized gui-parts are ok as their uses are somewhat similiar throughout the game 19:18:32 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how about forget backward compatibility? :D 19:18:42 <flitz> just finding out how to create such a window is a bit of a pain at first 19:18:44 <andythenorth> perhaps when 1.1 is released, a more aggressive attitude to deprecation? 19:18:51 <andythenorth> python deprecates aggressively :D 19:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: bad idea 19:19:16 <andythenorth> why? 19:19:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: for the first time with py3 19:19:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not very good. OSS lives from people participating. It'd offend many 19:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the community is not big enough to handle updating 5 year old grfs with questionable licenses 19:19:57 <andythenorth> (some of) those grfs don't support classes correctly anyway 19:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's also not big enough to handle losing compatibility to these grfs 19:20:19 <andythenorth> I would argue more strongly if I could spec a better alternative 19:20:20 <andythenorth> I can't 19:20:41 <Alberth> flitz: like the old system where you had to specify the exact position of each widget yourself was much better ;) 19:21:09 <Alberth> along with a multitude of hacks to make it resize as wanted :) 19:21:14 <confound> python also has regular enough syntax to offer automated conversion tools. is that true of grfs? 19:21:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth: "bulk" is too unspecific IMHO for your argument 19:22:02 <flitz> Alberth: I bet it was ;) 19:22:25 <Alberth> confound: py3 mostly changes syntax of statements, here you'd have to modify the data itself 19:22:29 <planetmaker> it could indeed need split into two(?) classes, like "bulk small grain" and "bulk large pieces" 19:22:33 <planetmaker> but I'm not sure 19:22:44 <confound> Alberth: that was my point :) 19:22:45 <planetmaker> what would cement be? bulk, covered and small? 19:22:50 <Yexo> andythenorth: I think the main problem is that there is no clear benefit for deprecating the cargo classes 19:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> confound: grfs have hardly any syntax, the semantics is the key point 19:22:57 <Yexo> A) there is no better alternative (currently) 19:23:15 <Yexo> B) most vehicles sets work fine, they need some exceptions but that's not visible to the user 19:23:38 <Yexo> user don't get anything out of a change, openttd gains nothing of a change, vehicle set developers probably don't get much use out of a change either 19:23:43 <Yexo> that leaves industry grf developers 19:23:57 <planetmaker> :-) 19:24:07 <Alberth> users get better vehicle selection 19:24:14 <Yexo> a bit, but not much 19:24:49 <planetmaker> I wonder, with a grf version8 it could possibly be extended? 19:25:09 <planetmaker> with a similar translation table as the (new) base costs use? 19:25:19 <Yexo> it doesn't need grf version8, you could also introduce a new property with new classes 19:25:24 <Yexo> or whatever else you want to introduce 19:25:30 <planetmaker> of course 19:25:45 *** flitz [~me@dslb-188-097-242-246.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: flitz] 19:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i shall now completely screw up my possibly irreversibly damaged system by rebooting. brb (*pray*) 19:26:55 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75877.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:28 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:05 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 19:30:23 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:22 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 19:32:33 <supermop> i just think the word bulk should never be used as a class label, because it can mean two essentially opposite concepts in this context 19:35:31 <SmatZ> [20:26:08] <Eddi|zuHause> i shall now completely screw up my possibly irreversibly damaged system by rebooting. brb (*pray*) <== seems it didn't boot up :P 19:40:23 <andythenorth> supermop: too late :P 19:40:32 *** MinchinWeb [~4e7e25bf@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:40:48 * andythenorth slightly favours an ECS2 with mappings and new properties 19:40:51 <andythenorth> but only slightly 19:41:02 <andythenorth> better would be a sane conversation with mb about existing system 19:41:25 <andythenorth> and me never having to work with refittable and non-refittable classes ever again :P 19:43:22 <andythenorth> the system of classes *isn't* broken 19:43:30 <andythenorth> but the current definitions are somewhat 19:43:52 <andythenorth> there are by my count at least 4 remaining slots 19:44:02 <andythenorth> so this is fixable 19:44:09 <supermop> does the current system disallow the addition of a new label? 19:44:33 <andythenorth> no 19:44:36 <andythenorth> mb disallows it 19:45:02 <andythenorth> it's negotiable, changes have been made before 19:45:10 <andythenorth> but the default assumption is 'no' 19:45:11 <Alberth> supermop: but even if it did, there is no vehicle set that supports it, so you have non-transferable cargo 19:45:43 <andythenorth> but there are numerous vehicle sets that could be updated 19:45:44 <Alberth> s/transfer/transport/ 19:46:02 <andythenorth> I recall the inverse argument about flipping in depot 19:46:13 <andythenorth> in that case it was decided that old sets should somehow be updated 19:46:38 <andythenorth> also when acceleration values were changed, it was decided that set authors should make the updates 19:46:45 <Alberth> yeah, with these things you have to simply do the change, and wait for the other end to catch up 19:47:09 * andythenorth wonders if quite an inconsistent standard is being applied? :o 19:47:29 <Alberth> andythenorth: what if you make a more precise definition of bulk, and then conclude something is missing? 19:47:33 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75877.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:47:38 <andythenorth> it's a problem :D 19:47:51 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: welcome, you're still alive! 19:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. why would it ever work immediately. 19:48:11 <andythenorth> hmm 19:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and why would it keep the downloaded rpm even though i said it should. 19:48:20 <andythenorth> I could just define my own private ECS label 19:48:24 <andythenorth> and use it 19:48:30 <andythenorth> and see if pikka will support it 19:48:42 <andythenorth> 'defacto' support 19:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... konsole font changed... looks weird 19:49:32 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: oh, kde. I messed that up so badly, I switched to gnome instead :) 19:50:03 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: "brb" would be nice last words :) 19:52:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you have been dealing with classes for opengfx+? Or you use explicit support with labels? 19:52:48 <planetmaker> of course I use classes where possible 19:52:55 <andythenorth> (thinking of running some tests on new label(s)) 19:53:52 <andythenorth> do classes AND or OR? 19:54:03 <andythenorth> I always get someone else to work them out for me, I am baffled by them 19:54:17 <andythenorth> for prop 28 / 29 trains for example 19:54:27 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository/entry/src/cargo_definitions.pnml <-- all cargo definitions 19:55:07 <planetmaker> translation to nfo property numbers should be obvious by the names ;-) 19:55:29 <andythenorth> very tidy :D 19:56:06 <planetmaker> :-) The only way I could keep somewhat an overview 19:56:28 <andythenorth> so for, e.g. FLATBED, why don't you have to define BULK as non-refittable? 19:56:42 <Yexo> andythenorth: see second table here: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/vehicles.html#vehicles-property for how cargo classes work 19:57:46 <andythenorth> ok 19:57:47 <andythenorth> thanks 19:59:06 <planetmaker> it's a bit a matter of how I need the least amount of cargo labels in the refittable_cargo_types property 19:59:40 <planetmaker> as I can only use overall 32 cargo labels there in the set as total 19:59:59 <andythenorth> and you trust no stupid industry set author defines something BULK and PIECE GOODS that shouldn't travel by flatbed 20:00:13 <planetmaker> and of course how to provision sensible handling of yet undefined cargos 20:00:35 * andythenorth leaves some of the FIRS 'what is it anyway' cargos well out of this argument :D 20:00:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: well, it could go into containers probably ;-) 20:01:15 <andythenorth> if you had vehicles OPEN what classes would you use? 20:01:20 <planetmaker> also, andythenorth: a flatbed could carry any piece cargo. Whether it (also) is defined as bulk doesn't matter 20:02:01 <andythenorth> coal in bags... 20:02:22 <supermop> coal in suitcases 20:02:29 <andythenorth> I am trying to find a test case for my problem with BULK 20:02:37 <andythenorth> to see if it's real or just a personal obsession 20:02:37 <Terkhen> coal in tankers :) 20:02:44 <supermop> coal in passengers' trouser pockets 20:02:45 <Terkhen> hello btw :) 20:02:50 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:03:20 <andythenorth> I can't define for a cargo inverse classes? 20:03:25 <planetmaker> I'd use like pax, armoured, coarse bulk (dirty), small grain bulk (can be blown, like fertilizter, grain, cement), covered, piece goods, tanker, refrigerate 20:04:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you don't provide support for hazardous, oversized? or I missed that? 20:04:17 <planetmaker> hm... maybe additionally: flatbed, hazardous maybe 20:04:37 <planetmaker> but I don't provide explicit support for that. No need. No tests possible as non-existent 20:04:54 <planetmaker> that = oversized, hazardous 20:05:22 <andythenorth> no industry set offers them? 20:06:44 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 20:07:21 <supermop> people keep asking for nuclear 20:07:27 <supermop> which makes no sense 20:08:09 <supermop> actually 20:08:12 <Terkhen> andythenorth: not that I know 20:08:12 <andythenorth> 'would be cool' 20:09:00 <Terkhen> I have seen Uranium and Rockets cargos at the wiki, but no industry sets using them 20:09:15 <supermop> the existence of the armored class implicitly suggests that the ottd world is full of criminals or bandits who would try to steal gold from the train 20:10:18 <planetmaker> I'd not support introduction of those cargos ;-) 20:10:23 <planetmaker> We have RL for that 20:10:48 <Alberth> can you imagine the number of complaints that we'd get if we transport gold in an open wagon? :p 20:11:03 <confound> but I do that all the time irl 20:11:04 <planetmaker> hahaha :-) 20:11:08 <supermop> hopper 20:11:31 <andythenorth> believe ECS was going to add hazardous to petrol and refined products 20:11:34 <planetmaker> there you see how far "realism" arguments go 20:11:49 <supermop> full of coins 20:11:59 <andythenorth> Terkhen: rockets - I believe I know who and what that is for 20:12:20 <Terkhen> what is it for? 20:12:26 <andythenorth> WATT is my favourite class :) 20:12:32 <andythenorth> label /s 20:12:44 <supermop> but no military would have some random company move those around for them... 20:13:12 <Alberth> hmm, hazardous could influence the path finder and disallow a route through a populated area :) 20:13:17 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d820c51.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 20:14:53 <Terkhen> or cause protests (low ratings) from people living nearby :) 20:16:48 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d82162f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:16:59 * andythenorth wonders 20:17:13 <andythenorth> the problem I have with something in between bulk and piece goods... 20:17:27 <andythenorth> is largely solved if the cargo could exclude covered / sheltered 20:17:56 <andythenorth> although I'm not sure many sets implement covered / sheltered 20:18:54 * andythenorth wonders if a 'NOT xyz' class is valid 20:19:14 <andythenorth> maybe that exceptionally complicates an existing complicated situation :P 20:21:07 * andythenorth ponders 20:21:33 <andythenorth> new class 'bulk that flows' would work 20:21:49 <andythenorth> cargos such as coal could implement 'bulk that flows' and 'bulk' 20:22:06 <andythenorth> thereby preserving backwards compatibility 20:22:28 <andythenorth> authors could define 'bulk that flows' for hoppers and 'bulk' for open wagons 20:23:07 <andythenorth> nothing existing breaks, but a more fine-grained selection of cargos is possible 20:23:15 <andythenorth> so we enhance without breaking 20:23:24 <supermop> needs a more concise name 20:23:41 <supermop> 'particulate'? 20:23:47 <andythenorth> could be 20:23:50 <supermop> 'granular' 20:23:59 <andythenorth> 'pourable' was a suggestion several times previously 20:24:03 <andythenorth> 'granular' is better 20:24:03 <Alberth> small bulk 20:24:12 <andythenorth> it's similar to how 'covered / sheltered' enhances both piece goods and bulk 20:24:18 <andythenorth> without breaking them 20:24:19 <supermop> but liquids are technically pourable too 20:24:28 <andythenorth> granular is better 20:24:41 <supermop> fine bulk is better than small bulk 20:24:48 <andythenorth> granular is better than either 20:25:02 <supermop> as fine describes grain size, small could be confused with amount 20:25:04 <supermop> yes 20:25:13 <supermop> i like granular 20:25:30 <supermop> but does it need to be "GRAN" or something? 20:25:46 <andythenorth> nah 20:25:50 <andythenorth> that's labels 20:25:53 <supermop> ok 20:25:54 <andythenorth> this is just 11 20:26:01 <andythenorth> bit 11 here: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Cargos#Cargo_classes_16_ 20:26:11 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.224.180.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:26:17 <andythenorth> and persuade mb that it's ok to change the definition of bulk 20:26:32 <supermop> ok 20:26:44 <supermop> i don't think i have any chance of that 20:26:48 <andythenorth> I shall try 20:26:54 <supermop> but i lend my support to the effort 20:26:56 <andythenorth> I have had long conversations with him about classes 20:27:01 <andythenorth> and labels 20:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with "bulk" [open, hopper] if you introduce additional "granular" [open, hopper, silo]? 20:27:18 <Alberth> how does he see 'bulk'? as big bulk or granular bulk? 20:27:22 <andythenorth> interestingly, DB Set mostly uses labels, not classes 20:27:41 <andythenorth> mb can't provide cargo support to his standard with classes 20:27:50 <andythenorth> so he explicitly supports nearly all known labels 20:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: do you mean the (unmaintained) DBSet 0.82 or the (in development) 0.9? 20:28:06 <andythenorth> therefore we discussed at some length the precise meaning and classes of various labels 20:28:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no idea 20:28:13 <andythenorth> 0.9 I imagine 20:28:18 <supermop> chunky 20:28:26 <supermop> coarse bulk? 20:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> afaik 0.82 predates classes completely 20:28:41 <supermop> chunky is more descriptive but sounds bad 20:29:33 <supermop> bulky bulk 20:29:51 <Alberth> coarse sounds better imho 20:29:59 <supermop> yeah 20:30:11 <supermop> but it doesnt go far enough 20:30:11 <andythenorth> In fact, for a vehicle set with large numbers of different visible cargoes, you cannot use cargo classes for any visible cargo 20:30:26 <andythenorth> ^^ what mb said in one of our discussions 20:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: different problem. 20:30:37 <andythenorth> indeed 20:30:42 <andythenorth> we also discussed that and agreed 20:30:49 <andythenorth> this isn't an argument against classes ;P 20:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is unsolvable with cargo classes 20:30:55 <supermop> as someone might call coal coarse when compared to sand, 20:31:20 <andythenorth> bulk is bulk 20:31:21 <supermop> and sand coarse when compared to various powders 20:31:37 <andythenorth> the problem is a relative one 20:31:45 <andythenorth> sand versus coal - both travel in hoppers 20:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: cargo classes are supposed to solve the 32bit limits for refit masks. cargo graphics have no such limit, they can decide cargo label directly 20:32:08 <andythenorth> any mineral cargo versus tree trunks ... 20:32:43 * andythenorth ponders a test implementation 20:32:47 <supermop> Andy, do you want 'bulk' to mean only those objects carried on flatbeds? 20:32:51 <andythenorth> no 20:33:16 <andythenorth> I want to make it possible for vehicle authors to exclude some bulk cargos from hoppers 20:33:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you need two things now: a) a clear concept, and b) a conclusive example 20:33:29 <supermop> or are things that can be piled, but not funneled 20:33:41 <supermop> like glass bottles to be recycled 20:33:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: new class 'granular' on bit 11 20:33:54 <andythenorth> and I can test it with HEQS / FIRS 20:34:11 <andythenorth> sugar beet should travel by open wagon, but not dump truck 20:34:22 * andythenorth now expects someone to post a picture showing opposite 20:34:28 <supermop> heh 20:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i meant a clear written document detailing the meaning of each proposed change 20:34:48 <andythenorth> I'd prefer to test it and see what I break :P 20:35:00 <andythenorth> shame I don't have a train set 20:35:12 <supermop> http://emilyweaverbrownphoto.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/DSC_1874.jpg 20:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is the fundamental flaw. you want a spec change passed through a committee... 20:35:23 <supermop> that truck seems to be dumpable 20:35:41 <andythenorth> supermop: that truck has a bottom conveyor 20:35:46 <supermop> with some kind of chute on the back 20:35:47 <andythenorth> you just found an interesting case :P 20:35:56 <andythenorth> sugar is a bad example 20:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the "testing" bit is irrelevant, since the change of adding a class bit is trivial 20:36:09 <andythenorth> I've backed myself into a corner with sugar 20:36:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: think it's worth testing that it appears to solve the proble 20:36:44 <andythenorth> m 20:36:50 <andythenorth> if it doesn't, scrap it 20:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sugar/fibres a "lightweight" cargo class? 20:37:19 <andythenorth> what difference does it make to vehicle support? :o 20:37:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "lightweight" goes in some kind of caged wagons 20:38:06 <andythenorth> interestink 20:38:20 <supermop> like corn 20:38:27 <supermop> /maize 20:38:32 <andythenorth> fruit and veg 20:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: with straw and the like you want to make sure you get as much into the vehicle without it falling off 20:39:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: http://www.silverstatespecialties.com/Reference/Trucks/SugarCane/index.shtml 20:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but it isn't pourable, so it can't go into hoppers, and doesn't make sense in dump truck 20:40:03 <andythenorth> post in the thread... 20:40:19 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53654 20:40:26 <planetmaker> I seem to recall that we've been at the 'granular' point at least once before ;-) 20:40:36 <andythenorth> probably twice 20:41:05 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.56.28] has joined #openttd 20:42:21 <supermop> you can pour it, just not through the funnel of a hopper 20:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, what about scrap metal? 20:42:38 <supermop> with a big enough hopper you could pour cars 20:43:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what do you think? :P 20:45:17 <andythenorth> scrap metal should be BULK under my new scheme 20:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "coarse bulk" means cargo like coal and ore, which goes into open and hopper wagons. "granular" means grain, fertilizer and can additionally go into silo wagons 20:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> scrap metal would still not fit into a hopper 20:46:03 <andythenorth> no 20:46:07 <andythenorth> and it shouldn't 20:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> then it's not "bulk" 20:46:40 <andythenorth> the problem remains unsolved in that case 20:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe "uncountable" as opposed to "piece" 20:47:47 <andythenorth> how about 'goods'? 20:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "piece" would be anything that is countable in "crates" or similar units 20:48:12 <Rubidium> but you can count grains of sand 20:49:27 <andythenorth> coal is granular no? 20:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no 20:49:40 <supermop> it is 20:49:46 <andythenorth> coal somewhat flows 20:49:51 <supermop> mehanically 20:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> but it can't be put in a silo wagon 20:50:04 *** Aylomen [~chatzilla@DSL01.212.114.233.72.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has joined #openttd 20:50:06 <supermop> it behaves like any other granular material 20:50:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "too large grain size" 20:50:16 <supermop> just at a different size, 20:50:26 <andythenorth> which problem do silo wagons relate to? 20:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but that's precisely the difference i am trying to make 20:51:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you want to differentiate silo wagons, or it's a straw man argument against my case? 20:51:27 <andythenorth> ;) 20:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's my current imagination on how things should work 20:51:46 <supermop> andy, how do you imagine firs scrap metal? 20:51:50 <planetmaker> it's red herring you 20:51:50 <andythenorth> bulk 20:51:55 <supermop> large or small chunks? 20:52:05 <andythenorth> irrelevant 20:52:10 <andythenorth> but they shouldn't travel by hopper 20:52:17 <supermop> like a crushed car, or a pile of stuff? 20:52:23 <andythenorth> doesn't matter in this case 20:52:51 <supermop> well we seems to be categorizing by how the cargo is emptied from the vehicle 20:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4626174473_4f51325d55.jpg <-- that's a silo wagon 20:53:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in what way is that not already covered by classes? 20:53:20 <Alberth> would the kind of wagon not be easier as classification? 20:53:30 <andythenorth> Alberth: what kind of wagon is a ship :D 20:53:32 <andythenorth> or a plane 20:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you wouldn 20:53:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 't put coal in such a wagon 20:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but cement or fertilizer 20:53:59 <andythenorth> hmm 20:54:02 <andythenorth> coal slurry? 20:54:09 <supermop> coal dust 20:54:09 <andythenorth> nah 20:54:14 <supermop> about to be burned 20:54:21 <supermop> but what i was on about 20:54:33 <Alberth> rocket propulsion :p 20:54:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I can't solve that case with current classes either :( 20:54:45 <andythenorth> you are right 20:54:52 <andythenorth> I thought covered / sheltered might do it 20:54:55 <supermop> is that things that carry cargo are typified as much by how they unload as how they carry 20:55:20 *** JOHN-SHEPARD_ [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-67-84.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 20:55:36 <supermop> if the scrap metal is removed piece by piece by some workers, it is more like a boxcar 20:55:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you wouldn't be prepared to consider those fine cargos as liquids? 20:55:52 <andythenorth> they are liquified by air for unloading 20:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that would put them in tank wagons, which isn't right either 20:56:25 <andythenorth> indeed 20:56:43 <supermop> mechanically the silo wagon works differently than a tank 20:56:49 <andythenorth> I don't like granular for that case 20:57:01 <andythenorth> that seems to be powder 20:57:20 <supermop> and in NA grain goes in a wagon that works like a coal hopper, but with a cover 20:57:42 <andythenorth> supermop: granular, covered / sheltered 20:58:00 <andythenorth> I still don't understand if classes AND or OR though :P 20:58:16 <supermop> ooh: 20:58:17 <supermop> http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/62553/62553,1214422198,3/stock-photo-potatoes-exit-a-side-dump-truck-onto-conveyor-at-potato-packing-plant-14183299.jpg 20:58:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so you would have CMNT cargo as 'powder, covered / sheltered, piece goods' ? 20:58:34 <supermop> side-dumping dump truck of potatoes 20:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: potatos are "large grained" 20:58:54 <supermop> like coal 20:59:04 <andythenorth> and beet 20:59:04 <Eddi|zuHause> like coal, ore, ... 20:59:25 <supermop> i was just searching for side dumpers to see what usually went in them 20:59:31 <supermop> because i didn't know 20:59:40 <supermop> i guess its potatoes 20:59:45 *** JOHNSHEPARD [~JOHN-SHEP@ALyon-158-1-38-169.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:00:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a pota toe... 21:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a toma toe either 21:00:53 <supermop> sorry, thats just my spell check 21:01:06 <supermop> i prefer the no 'e' spelling as well 21:01:15 <supermop> but opera doesn't like it 21:01:19 <supermop> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/End_dump_2005-11-28.km.jpg/300px-End_dump_2005-11-28.km.jpg 21:01:24 <supermop> what goes in those? 21:01:52 <andythenorth> anything that will fall out when you tip it 21:02:11 <andythenorth> aggregate, demolition debris, potatoes, immigrants :P 21:02:23 <andythenorth> grain - if you cover it 21:02:38 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 21:02:50 <supermop> i mean, the dump trucks with a round bottom 21:03:24 <andythenorth> sticky stuff like clay 21:03:35 <andythenorth> my guess is it's just a good way to fabricate them 21:03:39 <supermop> http://www.tomsicsoil.com/slideshow/truck5.jpg 21:03:39 <andythenorth> ach 21:03:44 <supermop> bolders 21:04:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so the final decision is what? 'lots more classes' ? 21:04:05 <andythenorth> :o 21:05:54 <andythenorth> hmm 21:06:26 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: zodttd] 21:08:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm trying to write something conclusive 21:11:18 <andythenorth> thanks 21:11:27 <andythenorth> once again I've baffled myself 21:11:33 <andythenorth> I just looked at UKRS 2 with FIRS 21:11:41 <andythenorth> the results are puzzling 21:12:49 <supermop> yeah? 21:17:21 <andythenorth> try it 21:17:24 <andythenorth> both on bananas 21:17:31 <andythenorth> set date to about 2000 21:18:02 <andythenorth> look at the covered hoppers 21:18:07 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:18:09 <andythenorth> although pikka will likely fix those 21:18:09 <supermop> never actually played with ukrs or ukrs2 21:18:39 <andythenorth> mostly UKRS 2 is proof that classes fundamentally work 21:19:04 <andythenorth> but it should be easier than it is 21:21:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I can half see an alternative solution 21:21:30 <andythenorth> it would be based on a fundamental change :( 21:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have formulated (my view) of the problem in the thread now 21:21:59 <andythenorth> I shall look 21:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause> s/) of/ of)/ 21:22:33 <andythenorth> good reply 21:22:48 <andythenorth> ignoring what's possible... 21:22:58 <andythenorth> there appear to be three base classes for cargos 21:23:01 <andythenorth> bulk 21:23:03 <andythenorth> piece goods 21:23:09 <andythenorth> liquid 21:23:25 <andythenorth> the distinctions could be argued, but it seems about right 21:23:41 <andythenorth> then there seem to be another layer of technical provisions 21:23:53 <andythenorth> which could equally be applied to any of those base classes 21:24:06 <andythenorth> e.g. refrigerated, hazardous, covered 21:24:32 <andythenorth> and some more which would seem to be limited to bulk (but it doesn't matter) 21:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> liquid, hazardous: e.g. oil, fuel 21:24:49 <andythenorth> powdered (requires silos), granular (suitable for hoppers) 21:25:19 <andythenorth> it would seem to me that the vehicle set author should be able to do the following: 21:25:24 <andythenorth> set base class for vehicle 21:25:29 <andythenorth> define technical provisions 21:25:44 <andythenorth> then the cargo set author should do the same 21:26:01 <andythenorth> the cargo set author should be able to AND and XOR 21:26:56 <andythenorth> then depending on how crazy each of the two authors are, bad things would happen 21:27:11 <Eddi|zuHause> what should the meaning of "AND" be? when e.g. oil is "liquid AND hazardous", then all tank wagons which only define "liquid" cannot load oil? 21:27:18 <andythenorth> yes 21:27:27 <andythenorth> which would be an insane thing to define 21:27:42 <andythenorth> or would it? 21:27:50 <andythenorth> I can't discern what mb intends with hazardous 21:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause> but it could improve the refit cost thing 21:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> refit cost could be increased if the class changed 21:28:15 <andythenorth> lets test some cases 21:28:20 <andythenorth> coal 21:28:25 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. from oil to milk would be "liquid, hazardous" to "liquid" 21:28:44 <andythenorth> coal would be bulk? 21:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but from water to milk would be "liquid" to "liquid", so reduced cost 21:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> coal would be "bulk, granular" 21:29:17 <andythenorth> so the cargo set author would XOR nothing 21:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> probably "bulk OR granular" 21:29:32 <andythenorth> but the vehicle set author could XOR granular from silo wagons 21:29:41 <Eddi|zuHause> bulk -> open wagon 21:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> granular -> hopper wagon 21:29:50 <andythenorth> indeed 21:30:03 <andythenorth> so current spec is cargo set classes OR 21:30:10 <andythenorth> cargo cannot specify AND or XOR 21:30:23 <andythenorth> ? 21:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the use case for "XOR"? 21:30:56 <andythenorth> hmm 21:31:45 * andythenorth thought of one and has forgotten :| 21:31:57 <andythenorth> it was related to the silo case 21:32:24 <andythenorth> flip your case 21:32:33 <andythenorth> make the vehicle set author's life easier 21:32:41 <andythenorth> they define what the wagon *is* not what it isn't 21:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> they can currently do both 21:32:54 <andythenorth> so a silo is bulk, powder 21:33:18 <andythenorth> rely on the industry set author to XOR coal from powder 21:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> they can say "include cargo classes X, Y" and "exclude cargo class Z" 21:33:33 <andythenorth> bearing in mind that there are only two active industry set authors shipping code... 21:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you don't mean XOR, you mean NOT 21:33:59 <andythenorth> yes, you're right 21:34:02 <andythenorth> and ECS obliges the industry set authors to agree on classes somewhat 21:34:10 <andythenorth> sorry 21:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> coal: "bulk OR granular AND (NOT powder)" 21:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> coal: "(bulk OR granular) AND (NOT powder)" 21:34:45 <andythenorth> it would seem much easier to define only what a vehicle *does* support and stop dicking around with XOR masks which, I for one, can't write 21:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> coal: "(bulk AND (NOT powder)) OR granular" 21:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause> one of those 21:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it gets extremely difficult to specify properly 21:35:29 <andythenorth> not a lot more difficult than currently :D 21:35:30 <supermop> boolean cargo? 21:36:05 <andythenorth> currently, industry set authors get the player feedback and the expectation of setting classes correctly, but don't have the tools 21:36:41 <andythenorth> wood? 21:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you remove the AND/OR thing out of this proposal, then it amounts to a new property "excluded cargo classes" for cargos 21:36:50 <andythenorth> pretty much 21:37:15 <andythenorth> but only a good idea if it reduces the burden on vehicle set authors 21:37:24 <andythenorth> lets test wood 21:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not sure how that would make things easier 21:37:55 <andythenorth> it's only a half-formed idea. It may be invalid :D 21:38:45 <andythenorth> wood is bulk 21:38:45 <supermop> andy 21:38:53 <supermop> i solved scrap metal: 21:38:54 <supermop> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3242/2873475493_989f095dac.jpg 21:39:06 <andythenorth> piece goods :D 21:39:33 <andythenorth> wood would NOT granular 21:39:40 <andythenorth> but would it NOT refrigerated? :o 21:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the definition of "bulk" as "pourable" does not really fit 21:40:00 <supermop> oh man andy 21:40:01 <andythenorth> would wood NOT hazardous? :o 21:40:07 <supermop> http://www.advancetires.com/images/2100-35_3.jpg 21:40:25 <andythenorth> ^ solid tyres 21:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only if you want to exclude it from every wagon that is flagged to allow hazardous 21:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> which doesn't seem useful 21:40:45 <andythenorth> but we rely on vehicle set authors not being insane? 21:40:49 <supermop> but still, in a dump truck 21:40:55 <andythenorth> supermop: indeed 21:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that's a pickup, not a dump 21:41:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the second link ;) 21:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> sorry... distracted... 21:42:36 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC24DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:42:40 <andythenorth> hmm 21:43:26 <andythenorth> so an open wagon would set BULK (a new definition of it) and PIECE GOODS 21:43:39 <andythenorth> it wouldn't set POWDER 21:43:42 <supermop> seems reasonable 21:43:55 <andythenorth> whether it sets GRANULAR is up to the set author, but it's not a hopper so shouldn't 21:44:04 <andythenorth> setting HAZARDOUS is optional but pointless 21:44:19 <andythenorth> setting REFRIGERATED is stupid unless it's for siberia 21:44:27 <andythenorth> setting LIQUID is dumb 21:44:51 <andythenorth> nothing needs to XOR 21:44:54 <supermop> lose x% cargo each time train brakes 21:45:35 <andythenorth> COVERED / SHELTERED wouldn't be set 21:45:56 <andythenorth> cargo set author then decides if grain needs to be both BULK && COVERED / SHELTERED 21:46:11 <andythenorth> if they think that matters, their cargo doesn't travel by open wagon in that set 21:46:36 <supermop> you mean granular && covered 21:46:37 <supermop> ? 21:46:52 <andythenorth> this is why it's tricky 21:47:01 <andythenorth> as Eddi|zuHause pointed out 21:47:09 <andythenorth> then you have to figure out 21:47:17 <supermop> if its boolean, 21:47:27 <supermop> and granular is a subtype of bulk 21:47:29 <andythenorth> (GRANULAR && COVERED / SHELTERED) || (BULK && COVERED SHELTERED) 21:47:45 <andythenorth> or GRANULAR && COVERED && BULK 21:47:48 <supermop> you would never need to state granular&&bulk 21:47:49 <andythenorth> etc 21:49:50 <andythenorth> in this case, grain probably wouldn't be granular :P 21:50:41 <andythenorth> hmm 21:50:50 * andythenorth tries to find a case that breaks this idea 21:52:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: an additional technical class: 'lightweight', or 'caged / staked' 21:52:22 <andythenorth> plant fibres.... 21:52:35 <andythenorth> BULK or PIECE GOODS 21:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> bulk 21:52:56 <andythenorth> NOT POWDER, NOT GRANULAR 21:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> not piece 21:53:01 <andythenorth> baleds 21:53:04 <andythenorth> bales sorry 21:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause> technically yes, but probably rather not 21:53:43 <supermop> is bailed different than other things that stack? 21:53:47 <andythenorth> well...allow it for now to see if it makes my scheme unworkable in the implementation ;) 21:54:09 <andythenorth> so plant fibres travel by any vehicle implementing BULK or PIECE 21:54:22 <andythenorth> but NOT if it implements POWDER or GRANULAR 21:54:34 <supermop> sounds right 21:54:49 <andythenorth> but a vehicle set author may have allowed the open wagon to implement granular 21:54:52 <andythenorth> as that would make sense 21:55:06 <supermop> so it can be piled in a wagon or bailed on a flatbed 21:55:22 <andythenorth> but in this case the vehicle set author is...wrong 21:55:34 <andythenorth> because it's not a hopper 21:56:05 <andythenorth> they have conflated the fact that coal is granular with the fact that a wagon is adapted for unloading granular cargos 21:56:34 <andythenorth> the case is clear with refrigerated 21:56:58 <andythenorth> so perhaps it would just be simpler to introduce 'hopper' and 'silo' and stop confusing things 21:57:25 <andythenorth> base class 21:57:38 <andythenorth> technical adaptations of the vehicle 21:58:13 <supermop> but then you are back to the problem that a cargo is carried in different ways depending on the mode or transport? 21:58:13 <andythenorth> assume all vehicles are unrefrigerated boxes with no capacity for hazardous cargo 21:58:40 <andythenorth> does bulk versus piece goods make sense in my scheme? 21:58:48 <andythenorth> everything seems to resolve to 'solid' or liquid' 21:58:58 <andythenorth> I guess coal doesn't go by van 21:59:30 <planetmaker> pax && armored && bulk :-P 22:00:24 <supermop> what if each cargo just tagged the different ways it could be unloaded, and vehicles tag what ways they can unload 22:00:44 <planetmaker> that's what cargo classes work like in my understanding 22:01:47 <supermop> coal could be dump or scoop 22:01:59 <andythenorth> coal is just bulk 22:02:01 <andythenorth> :D 22:02:51 <andythenorth> my idea is workable as a clean concept 22:03:06 <andythenorth> and unworkable due to us being where we are with respect to code long written 22:03:10 <planetmaker> the problem are that a cargo cannot define (bulk && covered) || (piece goods) 22:03:43 <andythenorth> principally yes, the problem is that the assumption is the vehicle set author should do all the work 22:03:51 <planetmaker> so a vehicle has to guess how the cargo classes are meant 22:03:57 <planetmaker> yes 22:03:57 <andythenorth> this assumption was made by people who have not shipped large industry sets :P 22:04:27 <planetmaker> but otoh it makes sense to leave much of that decision to the vehicle set authors 22:04:42 <andythenorth> it means most cargos simply get defined as piece goods 22:05:08 <andythenorth> 'most' is a bit over-stating that case 22:07:14 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:21 <planetmaker> well. the classes which eddi suggests in your tt-forums thread make sense. As additional ones 22:07:24 <Terkhen> good night 22:07:31 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen 22:07:53 <__ln__> zomg, C++ 2011 final draft has been approved 22:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, before DNF... 22:09:43 * andythenorth wonders if there's a sane way for a cargo and a vehicle to handshake and decide what scheme to use to set their classes 22:09:55 <andythenorth> so a new matching logic could be employed, 22:09:57 <planetmaker> that's what classes are about 22:10:05 <andythenorth> without needing all of callbacks and everything else to be changed 22:11:06 <andythenorth> so action 7 and action 0 blocks 22:11:10 <andythenorth> defining the classes 22:11:25 <andythenorth> for the vehicle, depending on the industry newgrf... 22:11:55 <planetmaker> I think I define myself now as cargo of the class 'sleeping person' in my dream vehicle type 'bed' 22:11:59 <andythenorth> heh 22:12:00 <planetmaker> good night :-) 22:12:03 <andythenorth> I should do the same 22:12:38 <andythenorth> or at least do something useful 22:13:09 <supermop> heh 22:14:55 <andythenorth> it's like picking a scab 22:15:03 <andythenorth> a person should know better :P 22:22:02 <frosch123> and result of the discussion? 22:22:07 <frosch123> *any 22:25:30 *** Aylomen [~chatzilla@DSL01.212.114.233.72.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:36:47 <frosch123> night 22:37:02 *** Krusen [~as.if@89.184.153.221] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:37:08 <frosch123> i am suspicious someone is going to steal me a hour of sleep 22:37:13 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff133.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:36 *** sla_ro|vista [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: "He who controls the past commands the future, He who commands the future, conquers the past." - Kane] 22:46:03 *** andythenorth [~andy@80.229.121.87] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:53:43 *** elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:44 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B5A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:56 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 22:59:25 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n0l.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd 23:09:10 *** aber [~Adium@gb049.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined #openttd 23:14:35 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@bas8-london14-1279480034.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd 23:19:37 <DanMacK> Hey all 23:20:07 <supermop> hello 23:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the night is short, i'll try sleeping. 23:21:48 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:59 *** DDR [~DDR@d142-179-79-208.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 23:24:38 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:02 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe35dc00-187.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 23:28:36 *** nicfer [~nicfer@190.50.56.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:51 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d82162f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 23:49:40 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:52:36 *** Markavian [~Markavian@197.073.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:52:39 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:52:52 *** ar3k [~ident@ebw245.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: âI-n-v-i-s-i-o-nâ 3.2 (July '10)] 23:56:10 *** Guest50 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]