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00:03:43 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D679.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:44 <blanham> is there any documentation for openttd's save game format? google is failing me 00:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> apart from the canonical documentation, the basic file format is RIFF, and the structure of the map is in docs/landscape.html 00:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the structure of each chunk is best determined from the saveload handlers 00:14:46 <Eddi|zuHause> in src/saveload/* 00:20:31 <blanham> thanks 00:23:23 <blanham> i have a crazy idea that i am weighing the feasibility of 00:23:54 <blanham> namely, using the openttd renderer as the base of a rollercoaster tycoon clone 00:29:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say you're crazy, but that never stopped anybody :p 00:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what that has to do with the savegame format, though 00:31:12 <blanham> to see if i could take the terrain data from rct and use it in openttd 00:31:25 <blanham> as far as the height map and such 00:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with that idea is that openttd has no "cliffs" 00:32:10 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and no ability to rotate the map 00:32:48 <blanham> oof, that is certainly a problem 00:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the latterr is probably easy to implement, but there are no graphics for that 00:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the former is probably also not too dificult to implement, but it's kinda bad when you have no way of seeing behind such a cliff 00:34:10 <blanham> yeah, but my rendering skills are probably not up to snuff 00:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> main problem with rotating is buildings, expecially ones which span multiple tiles (industries, hotels, airports) 00:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you might not immediately need to care about that, if you're trying to be independent from the TTD-graphics 00:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> most other graphics come in all necessary rotations 00:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm saying it's not impossible to do these things 00:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and in fact they are even fairly commonly requested 00:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause> no real technical limitations prevent them, mostly missing (original) graphics 00:42:14 <blanham> makes sense 00:46:38 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.167.141] has quit [Quit: .] 01:01:35 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC2CB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 01:36:43 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:59 *** a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 01:41:07 *** blanham [blanham@99-133-145-177.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:50:23 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:10:51 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 02:20:35 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:8175:49b5:a32d:afc0] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:22:23 *** rhaeder 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[~proffrink@5e090e25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:29:56 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd 06:48:18 <planetmaker> moin 07:11:42 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Juo] 07:12:42 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 07:17:30 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has left #openttd [] 07:21:46 <V453000> hello :p 07:35:59 *** Matte [Beengalas@nl118-174-224.student.uu.se] has joined #openttd 07:39:37 <dihedral> good morning 07:40:06 <peter1138> not really 07:45:24 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D911.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:49:57 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-021-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:51:10 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:51:13 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:59:23 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:01:11 *** SpComb^ [terom@zerg.fixme.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16:18 <dihedral> peter1138, it is here :-P 08:29:23 <peter1138> not enough sleep :S 08:35:30 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC360E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:43:53 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 08:44:14 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 08:48:22 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D911.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36:38 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:36:50 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has joined #openttd 09:39:36 *** Noldo_ [vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has joined #openttd 09:41:30 *** Noldo [vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:59:59 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd 10:41:48 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-148-187-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 10:54:58 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d0860b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:05:53 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:06:40 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 11:18:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.191.123] has joined #openttd 11:20:47 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-148-187-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:23:55 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.172.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:36:28 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-148-187-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:48:38 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-148-187-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:17:42 *** ar3k [~ident@ebz169.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 12:22:17 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:23:07 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:24:27 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:25:07 *** Osai [~Osai@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:25:12 *** ar3kaw [~ident@ecq82.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:25:27 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:25:27 *** DJNekkid [~djnekkid@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:25:47 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:25:56 *** andythenorth [~Andy@46.208.232.218] has joined #openttd 12:26:02 *** Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:26:02 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:26:02 <andythenorth> openttd is fascist 12:26:05 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:26:07 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:26:07 *** tneo [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:26:07 <andythenorth> and I want my money back 12:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> here you are. 12:26:42 <andythenorth> am I? I was wondering where I was 12:27:01 <andythenorth> now I know I'm here 12:27:03 <andythenorth> thanks 12:28:42 <andythenorth> openttd really does remind me of microsoft you know 12:28:48 <andythenorth> and Rubidium is Bill Gates 12:29:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean "guy that doesn't program that much himself, but cashes in on all the money"? 12:29:46 <andythenorth> yeah 12:30:07 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.167.141] has joined #openttd 12:30:11 <andythenorth> jake has drawn some nice boats 12:30:14 <andythenorth> long may that continue 12:30:21 <andythenorth> then I may stop sulking and start coding 12:33:26 *** fjb is now known as Guest3027 12:33:26 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFE273.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:39:34 *** tneo [~tneo@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 12:39:58 *** andythenorth [~Andy@46.208.232.218] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 12:40:02 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:40:15 *** Guest3027 [~frank@p5DDFEFAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:40:34 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:41:02 *** Osai [~Osai@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:41:02 *** Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:41:11 *** ^Spike^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:41:34 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:41:37 *** mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ 12:42:00 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:42:04 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:42:40 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:43:04 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:43:04 *** DJNekkid [~djnekkid@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:44:04 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:44:08 *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ 12:46:14 <Belugas> hi hi 12:51:04 <Alberth> hi sir Belugas 12:53:41 <Belugas> good day dear sir Alberth :) 12:54:23 <V453000> hello mr. co-realism-hater 12:54:24 <V453000> :P 12:54:53 <Belugas> :D 12:59:13 * TWerkhoven likes reality 12:59:17 <TWerkhoven> reality has food 13:00:48 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:02:47 <V453000> reality is fine, unless some braindead people start up the word "realism" and connect the good reality with a game 13:04:17 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 13:04:39 <planetmaker> reality is fine. fiction is fine - and is meant to be fun. Thus realism in fiction is always second to any 'fun' argument 13:05:39 <planetmaker> hm... if we ever get OSX binaries again, I guess I'll advocate to drop all ppc support ;-) 13:07:41 <Terkhen> hello 13:08:27 <V453000> :p 13:08:31 <V453000> hi Terkhen 13:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so what about a repo for all CETS-related openttd patches? 13:14:35 <Noldo_> CETS? 13:15:08 <TWerkhoven> central european train set 13:15:28 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@bas8-london14-1279293012.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd 13:15:56 <peter1138> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14227779 hurr 13:17:46 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, question is: mercurial queues or a patched trunk? 13:18:25 <planetmaker> you sound like preferring a mq - type project, right? 13:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure, they seem like fairly small and isolated patches 13:19:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still not very familiar with mq 13:19:41 <planetmaker> not difficult :-) 13:19:48 <planetmaker> hg qinit 13:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there was something with versioned queues and unversioned queues 13:20:09 <planetmaker> hg qnew -m "Commit message" filename_first_patch 13:20:57 <planetmaker> well... you can create a hg repo inside the mq patches dir. That then can be used to gain a versioned mq 13:21:23 <planetmaker> the patches of a mq are stored in .hg/patches 13:21:40 <planetmaker> that's the dir you can then call hg init in to version it 13:22:12 <V453000> patches for a train set? :o 13:22:20 <planetmaker> yup, we need it :-P 13:22:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "hg qinit [...] This command is deprecated. [...] use "hg init --mq" instead. 13:22:28 <planetmaker> :-) 13:22:42 <planetmaker> I didn't need to inialize a queue in a new repo for long 13:22:55 <planetmaker> I mostly just use the same, but constantly changing queue in my trunk repo 13:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "will create a separate nested repository for patches" 13:23:15 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: just start using the queue (hg qnew first.patch) 13:23:24 <planetmaker> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/MqExtension 13:23:46 <planetmaker> and yes... qinit is deprecated in 1.5 it seems 13:24:42 <planetmaker> I'll need to check back with Ammler how exactly we solved the mq repos on the DevZone so that the openttd CF could pull from it 13:25:12 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I never have VCS control for the patches in the queue, I found it too confusing 13:25:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the CF should always pull tip, or not? 13:25:17 <Ammler> the devzone is able to prepare a hg repo from mq for the CF 13:25:28 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes... but it needs a full repo, not the patches :-) 13:25:50 <Alberth> planetmaker: in 'default' ? 13:25:58 <planetmaker> Alberth, yes, IIRC 13:26:18 <planetmaker> i.e. the CF needs simply a patched trunk repo 13:26:35 <Ammler> e.q. it creates https://hg.openttdcoop.org/32bpp-ez-patches.mq" target="_blank">https://hg.openttdcoop.org/32bpp-ez-patches.mq from https://hg.openttdcoop.org/32bpp-ez-patches 13:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so steps: 1) create repo on devzone, 2) fill it with trunk, 3) clone repo to local, 4) add patches, 5) push patches? 13:27:42 <planetmaker> that'd not store the patches, but the modified trunk... ^ Ammler ? 13:28:04 <planetmaker> iirc there was *some* way such that you only need to push patches 13:28:05 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: clone https://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd and then hg init --mq 13:28:25 <Ammler> then push the mq to your devzone project 13:28:51 <Ammler> well, or use hg.openttd.org... 13:28:59 <Ammler> those just don't have tags and such 13:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that leaves two questions: a) where do i get a devzone project from (and how to name it), and b) how do i push the queue repo? 13:31:00 <Belugas> Realism is fine for a game initially designed as such, lime flight simulator, racing cars and so on. Pushing a feature request, or begging for a feature to be corrected simply beuase it's not realistic sucks when the main subject of the game is not about realism, but about fictionnal fun 13:31:02 <Belugas> tadam! 13:31:11 <Belugas> sorry, out of contect, lagging... 13:31:13 <Belugas> context 13:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: b) "hg push --mq"? 13:33:35 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, from .hg/patches: just hg push 13:33:46 <planetmaker> maybe you way works also :-) 13:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so. what about a)? 13:36:24 <planetmaker> Yexo, me or Ammler :-) 13:36:48 <planetmaker> hm... well, you're already a project manager. You can also create it yourself 13:37:06 <planetmaker> existing project managers can create new projects 13:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm useless with such bureaucracy 13:37:52 <planetmaker> ? Just create it 13:38:19 <planetmaker> well, what should be its name? 13:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that was part of the question ;) 13:39:20 <planetmaker> then it's openttd-trainvars? 13:39:37 <planetmaker> not to mix up with openttd-train wars :-P 13:39:49 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds alright 13:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> vehvars? 13:40:14 <Eddi|zuHause> because it's also for roadveh 13:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> at least it should work 13:40:59 <planetmaker> ok 13:41:06 *** xabann [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 13:41:07 <planetmaker> wewa :-P 13:41:26 <planetmaker> close to wau wau close to miau ;-) 13:41:26 <xabann> Hi, do I need Transport Tycoon Deluxe to make use of OpenTTD? 13:41:35 <planetmaker> xabann, no, you don't 13:41:43 <planetmaker> on windows: just use the installer and follow defaults 13:41:55 <planetmaker> on linux: use your packet manager 13:42:05 <xabann> Hmm 13:42:22 <xabann> In the past I always installed first TTD before installing OpenTTD 13:42:31 <planetmaker> Unless, of course, you insist to install an OpenTTD aged 3 years or older 13:43:33 <Eddi|zuHause> xabann: you still can use the trg*.grf and sample.cat files from TTD 13:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> xabann: but you don't have to 13:44:04 <xabann> Well, I don't own the CD anymore :) 13:44:15 <planetmaker> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/openttd-vehiclevars <-- Eddi|zuHause 13:45:08 <planetmaker> project repo will be the usual path (analoguous to CETS). Just push your patches, nothing more 13:45:49 <planetmaker> repo might need a few minutes before it is created server-side. 13:47:34 <Ammler> echo "openttd" > .devzone/mq/mainrepo 13:47:44 <Ammler> so the devzone can create the repo for CF 13:47:59 <xabann> hmm, the grafix are a bit different 13:48:26 <planetmaker> of course 13:49:11 <planetmaker> xabann, sure enough we may not just steal the original graphics; as such everything was drawn from scratch 13:49:45 <xabann> oh 13:49:53 <xabann> I have to find my CD then :)) 13:51:15 <planetmaker> 'fine', eh? :-P 13:51:19 <planetmaker> *find 13:52:35 <Ammler> [15:46] <Eddi|zuHause> [15:31:28] Ammler: b) "hg push --mq"? [15:46] <planetmaker> [15:33:35] Eddi|zuHause, from .hg/patches: just hg push <-- that's the same 13:53:08 <planetmaker> :-) thanks 13:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i got the theory now. 13:53:11 <Ammler> planetmaker: you seem to use quite depreciated mq workflow :-) 13:53:39 <planetmaker> Ammler, yes... I hardly need anything else than hg qnew / qpush / qpop / qfinish 13:53:52 <planetmaker> and qdiff 13:54:04 <planetmaker> and qrefresh :-P 13:54:15 <Ammler> qimport 13:54:22 <planetmaker> seldom :-) 13:54:40 <Ammler> best way to apply a git patch 13:54:41 <planetmaker> I write the patches myself usually - or I don't need to qimport them 13:55:13 <Ammler> or is patch able to apply binaries? 13:55:24 <planetmaker> no, it isn't 13:55:37 <planetmaker> but I can hg import it ;-) 13:56:10 <Ammler> hmm, well 13:57:24 <planetmaker> I hardly keep external patch queues for longer... thus I just apply the patches without mq support 13:59:41 *** Matte [Beengalas@nl118-174-224.student.uu.se] has quit [] 14:10:33 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: btw. you once asked about saving password, there is extension keyring (http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/KeyringExtension) 14:11:47 *** xabann [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:15:07 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-124-226.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 14:15:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:15:37 <Ammler> please tell me if it is useable, then we could add it to our little guide 14:21:25 <DanMacK> Hey Andy 14:21:32 <andythenorth> hola DanMacK 14:22:22 <planetmaker> holladrioh DanMacK and andythenorth 14:35:00 *** DanMacK [~DanMacK@bas8-london14-1279293012.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 14:46:43 <V453000> weird ... question: What colour does a duck have? Brown-ish looks odd, yellow is not obvious that it is a ducky an white is like goose but with short neck ... 14:48:00 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-075-244-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:49:52 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:58 <V453000> hm lets say brown is the one 14:52:02 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 14:52:31 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has left #openttd [] 14:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> male ducks have a green head, female ducks are brownish-grey 14:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.fotogalerie.f-knieper.de/tiere/ente-duck-6188.jpg 14:56:06 <Belugas> daffy duck is black, with a white colar 14:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.ariva.de/divi-di-ente_a209450 14:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never ever seen a "real" duck that was yellow... 14:59:56 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2cv_007.jpg ? 15:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i've not really seen one of those either :) 15:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.polizeioldtimer.de/images/ente.jpg <-- and this one's way cooler ;) 15:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a "pol-ente" ;) 15:09:20 <Alberth> :) 15:09:26 <Alberth> but it is not yellow ;) 15:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but green ;) 15:21:49 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:26:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i can't edit the description of a ticket, only comments? 15:28:27 <__ln__> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14201796 15:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2884 <-- thoughts? 15:37:21 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 15:37:44 <alluke> whats invalid chunk size 15:38:01 <alluke> i get that when i try to load old cargodist game with new one 15:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: it means the patch does not provide any savegame compatibility 15:39:11 <alluke> fuu 15:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: either stay with the old version, or start a new game 15:39:31 <alluke> and there arent any savegame converters available? 15:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> very unlikely 15:40:00 <alluke> damn it 15:40:01 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 15:43:48 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D911.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, i found where i can edit the description... it's very... hidden... 15:51:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22677 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Doc: A few doxygen sprinkles in toolbar_gui.cpp 15:58:01 *** Lakie` [~Lakie@82.153.194.125] has joined #openttd 15:58:27 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.167.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:00:49 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.255.237] has joined #openttd 16:06:57 *** Lakie` [~Lakie@82.153.194.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:08:36 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009c50.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:13:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22678 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: More doxygen sprinkles in MacOSX code and cocoa video driver 16:27:15 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 16:34:30 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 16:36:38 <__ln__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPS_9566 16:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so many standards. we should have one unified standard! 16:44:26 <__ln__> yes, as long as the unified one has the logo of the worker's party in it 16:48:17 <Alberth> obviously north korea will not accept a non-northern korean standard, so it would be KPS_9566 16:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there was no east-german code page... 16:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (that i know of) 16:51:08 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:56:59 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 16:58:55 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop_] 16:59:45 <fjb> Written east-german was not that different from german. 17:00:48 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 17:17:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22679 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Change [FS#4692] (r22655): [NewGRF] Use a value of 0 to indicate the invalid waterclass in the nearby land info (0x60 ind. tiles, 0x62 houses, objects,...) 17:22:37 <frosch123> the keyboard is older than east germany 17:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: maybe not the letters, but definitely the words :p 17:24:09 <Eddi|zuHause> there might have been things like an upper case Ã, if things went slightly differently ;) 17:25:35 <frosch123> the german code page did not have an à either, it only had a β 17:26:15 <frosch123> (wrt. the dos codepage) 17:33:11 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 17:39:20 <Eddi|zuHause> at the screen resolutions in use back then, there was not too much difference between both ;) 17:44:14 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 17:45:07 <Rubidium> oh shoot... 17:45:18 <Rubidium> just wanted to ask andy whether we should be more like apple 17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22680 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt dutch.txt finnish.txt greek.txt serbian.txt): 17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne 17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell 17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_ 17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 66 changes by kyrm 17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: serbian - 1 changes by etran 17:51:01 *** andythenorth [~Andy@46.208.232.218] has joined #openttd 17:51:26 <__ln__> Rubidium: can you resist buying an apple now that they have announced the new Full-screen apps feature in Lion? 17:51:29 <Rubidium> andythenorth: we should be more like Apple? 17:51:37 <andythenorth> not really 17:51:42 <andythenorth> be more like microsoft 17:51:59 <Lakie> Only just annonced such a feature, __ln__? 17:52:02 <andythenorth> anyway openttd is clearly fascist 17:52:08 * Alberth will recommend re-install for every problem 17:52:23 <andythenorth> umm 17:52:33 <andythenorth> wrt the circular discussion from yesterday 17:52:34 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: what was wrong with the old feature? 17:52:38 <__ln__> Lakie: oh yes, http://www.apple.com/macosx/whats-new/full-screen.html 17:52:38 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but we're like microsoft in many sense, e.g. obnoxious efforts to keep old stuff working 17:52:42 <andythenorth> oh god yes 17:52:43 <Alberth> andythenorth: re-install will help 17:53:10 <andythenorth> anyway, grfs disabling themselves is - to borrow a quote - a misfeature 17:53:20 <andythenorth> why not just refuse to start the game if a grf disables 17:53:34 <andythenorth> there is no plausible reason why you'd want to start the game with a disabled grf 17:53:41 <andythenorth> it leaves n other problems, but solves some 17:53:42 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it's like applications not starting because the version of Windows is not right, instead of subtly not working right 17:53:43 <Alberth> because eg firs disables itself if i witch to toyland? 17:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that doesn't fully work out either. remember the two people that vehemently demanded that we re-introduce the old behaviour of turning around vehicles? :p 17:54:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'm not accepting that kind of argument 17:54:30 <Alberth> ie there are legitimate cases 17:54:30 <planetmaker> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html 17:54:33 <andythenorth> it's an unrelated edge case 17:54:43 <Alberth> and I don't know how to distinguish between them 17:54:58 <andythenorth> name any benefit of starting a new game (not a save game) with grfs disabled 17:55:15 <Lakie> I suppose you should spewcify the reasons for why it disabled, andythenorth. 17:55:16 <Alberth> no need to disable newgrfs 17:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: reuse the same preset for different climates 17:55:19 <Lakie> Laziness 17:55:29 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no ;) 17:55:31 <Lakie> People not bothered to change their newgrf settings 17:55:49 <andythenorth> Lakie: we can't specify the reasons - we have to assume that any reason the newgrf author chooses is valid :| 17:56:10 <frosch123> we should add support for downloading newgrf presets from banans 17:56:21 <Lakie> Well, cimate is pretty valid reasoning, similarly does not work with grf foo is valid? 17:56:29 <frosch123> and then in the next step disallow players to pick their own grf configuration 17:57:03 <Lakie> I can't imagine that going down well, with the community opr newgrf authors 17:57:10 <andythenorth> none of these are benefits to starting a new game with disabled grfs :P 17:57:33 <Lakie> As I said, laziness of not removing grfs which don't work in other climates 17:58:21 <andythenorth> ok 17:58:30 * andythenorth remains baffled 17:58:33 *** andythenorth [~Andy@46.208.232.218] has left #openttd [] 17:59:25 <Lakie> Ideally shouldn't OpenTTD not necessarily store the grfs which are disabled (when starting a new game) when saving? 18:00:15 <Rubidium> ghehe... 18:00:31 <frosch123> action7 makes a difference of grfs being present or being disabled 18:00:53 <Rubidium> heh, just wanted to ask whether I remembered something like that correctly. Guess I did ;) 18:01:07 <frosch123> http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NewGRF_Configuration_in_Utopia <- wrt. "ideally" :p 18:01:15 <Lakie> So why is a game with disbaled grfs a problem? 18:01:39 <Rubidium> it's an andy problem 18:02:44 <frosch123> i think he considers disabled grfs too complex for the average user 18:02:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andy wants a system where people can add and remove grfs, with detecting the dangerous side effects 18:03:26 <Lakie> Thats quite tricky, due to having to workout what'd change in the game.. 18:03:39 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: more like s/with detecting the dangerous/without/ 18:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, if dangerous side effects get detected, the change is refused 18:04:27 <Lakie> I doubt you could ever get an automated syste which would always get that right though 18:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and andy thinks with reducing the things grfs are allowed to do, this check gets easier 18:05:27 <Lakie> Bit of an odd argument 18:05:40 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly :p 18:06:26 <Lakie> Well, it might make it easier, but doesn't it render them far less useful 18:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the smaller problem 18:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the bigger problem is that all existing grfs get invalid 18:07:40 <Lakie> Thats true, which would be pretty cataclisic in hate mail... 18:08:38 <planetmaker> They need not get invalid. 18:09:33 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: are you aware of the build logs on devzone? ([19:19] <Brot6> cets: update from r64 to r67 done (375 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/r67) 18:09:48 <planetmaker> But the enhanced 'allow to modify grfconfig' would then only be allowed when only newgrfs with 'limits' 18:10:37 <planetmaker> are active / about to become active 18:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes, the warnings are harmless 18:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> or rather: due to the fact the set is heavily unfinished :p 18:13:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@46.208.232.218] has joined #openttd 18:14:41 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D911.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you are free to go to https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=de#gid=0 and fill out the missing values ;) 18:19:43 <Ammler> because of nml, i had to change errors to warnings ;-) 18:20:44 <Alberth> huh? 18:20:59 <Alberth> do you have an 'intelligent' build system or so? 18:21:51 <planetmaker> Alberth: if a 'this is deprecated' message terminates the build, it's not what is desired ;-) 18:22:51 <Alberth> yeah, a 'smart' system, that thinks it understands what it is doing.... NOT 18:23:41 <Ammler> planetmaker: it's not that message 18:23:45 <andythenorth> the "I changed climates and I'm too lazy to change newgrfs" case doesn't hold up as a benefit 18:23:51 <andythenorth> it's actually another problem 18:24:12 <andythenorth> grf x might be fine with grf y in tropic, but disable it in climate 18:24:15 <andythenorth> result: broken game 18:25:34 <Alberth> what are you trying to achieve with non-disabling of newgrfs? 18:25:55 <andythenorth> reduce the number reasons why players might want to change newgrfs in game 18:26:08 <andythenorth> changing newgrfs is stupid 18:26:13 <andythenorth> for obvious reasons 18:26:18 <Alberth> disabling is just another form of 'changing' 18:26:30 <andythenorth> expand? 18:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: all that needs is popping up the newgrf config on game start, if there were errors 18:27:34 <andythenorth> that's better than my suggestion of not allowing start 18:27:46 <Alberth> you may be able to take away one reason, but there are many many cases 18:28:05 <andythenorth> no silver bullet 18:28:07 <andythenorth> and other cliches 18:28:15 <Alberth> and many of them are user-related, so no hope of solving 18:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> bonus points for actually selecting the erroneous grf 18:28:24 <andythenorth> is 'not being able to solve it all' a reason to not solve what can be solved? 18:29:50 <Alberth> first question to answer is do you actually want to rescue the current system? 18:30:01 <andythenorth> rescue it from what? 18:30:02 <Alberth> I can only see a very long and painful road 18:30:30 <andythenorth> all of these discussions seem to end in 'we need to ditch newgrf' which I find odd 18:30:33 <Alberth> rescue from kill -9 18:31:03 <Alberth> that may be the case, yes 18:31:07 <andythenorth> this is why I'm baffled 18:31:22 <andythenorth> we can't change anything apparently because we have to maintain legacy support - even for stuff that's just wrong 18:31:36 <andythenorth> yet the proposed solution is often 'throw away all of newgrf' 18:32:00 <Alberth> different devs, different opinions :) 18:32:17 <andythenorth> well yes 18:32:49 <andythenorth> I don't really care that much 18:32:58 <andythenorth> I play with newgrf developer tool on and change whatever I want 18:33:00 <Rubidium> so, what concrete changes to the handling of NewGRFs do you propose? 18:33:02 <Alberth> I'd be in favor of cutting of broken stuff of the newgrf spec, but can you identify that, or is it just as hopeless as trying to remove an advanced setting? 18:33:13 <Alberth> *off 18:33:20 <andythenorth> 1. forbid grf disabling other grfs 18:33:35 <andythenorth> 2. don't start game with disabled newgrfs - show newgrf window 18:33:46 <andythenorth> 3. post information in useful places that DOS palette is best 18:33:57 <andythenorth> 4. strongly encourage action 14 18:33:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's moderately simple: 18:34:18 <planetmaker> a) add a property which states that a newgrf cannot access other newgrfs at all 18:34:26 <planetmaker> b) enforce that property, if set by the newgrf 18:34:40 <planetmaker> c) if all active newgrfs have that property, set, allow also changes 18:34:52 <planetmaker> fallback to current behaviour if there's one which does not follow that 18:35:11 <planetmaker> of the active ones / to be active ones; not the complete lest 18:35:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you propose *allowing* to change newgrf in game? 18:35:24 <planetmaker> well. simple is the theory 18:35:24 <Rubidium> doesn't that get us back to the: why doesn't changing NewGRFs work for 99% of the cases for years because old NewGRFs stay around like cancers 18:35:36 <andythenorth> changing newgrf in game should be a done argument 18:35:40 <andythenorth> it shouldn't be allowed 18:35:53 <andythenorth> there's too much that can go wrong 18:35:53 <planetmaker> whatever. adding newgrfs then maybe 18:36:04 <Rubidium> andythenorth: you can do 3 and 4 yourself easily 18:36:05 <planetmaker> like adding vehicle sets to a map 18:36:19 <andythenorth> Rubidium: I like those 3 and 4 for that reason :P 18:36:29 <planetmaker> if all newgrfs cannot talk to eachother, adding new vehicles is safe 18:36:38 <andythenorth> that was the point of pools? 18:36:46 <andythenorth> maybe not 18:36:49 <Alberth> planetmaker: and ECS + FIRS together? 18:36:56 <andythenorth> boom 18:37:00 <andythenorth> cargo cluster fuck 18:37:13 <Alberth> it breaks 'do not talk' principle 18:37:28 <andythenorth> so continue to disallow adding 18:37:29 <Rubidium> I don't see what option 1 would achieve; okay, not disabling another... but you can still disable yourself based on another NewGRF 18:37:42 <andythenorth> that's fine 18:37:53 <andythenorth> disabling other grfs is just plain rude 18:38:00 <planetmaker> Alberth: they're not vehicles ;-) 18:38:32 <Alberth> planetmaker: so 'vehicle sets do not talk' :) 18:38:36 <planetmaker> industry newgrfs probably need to stay an exception 18:38:41 <planetmaker> possibly, yes 18:38:52 <planetmaker> but you can only allow that, if neither can listen 18:39:04 <planetmaker> or the industry newgrf could disable XY when it finds vehicle AB 18:39:05 * Rubidium ponders whether it's feasible to make a NewGRF that disables one part of competing sets of NewGRFs 18:39:19 <planetmaker> Rubidium: sure 18:39:24 *** jrabbit [~jackirssi@74-222-207-54.dyn.everestkc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:39:38 <planetmaker> like one ECS vector is easily done 18:39:47 <planetmaker> or one of opengfx+ newgrfs or whatever 18:40:42 <Rubidium> about option #2; the game is technically already started if you want to be able to show that window. Next question is, when is it disabled? It could pretty well throw a warning and skip all sprites, and still be effectively disabled without knowing that 18:41:31 <planetmaker> Rubidium: that's why my a) was 'forbid all newgrfs to see and listen to eachother' 18:41:48 <andythenorth> true 18:41:50 <planetmaker> only if that is obeyed completely we can allow adding vehicle newgrfs 18:42:19 <andythenorth> there's nothing can be done about the 'skip all sprites' case 18:42:32 <andythenorth> except berate any newgrf author who does such a thing 18:42:38 <Rubidium> planetmaker: that'd mean that there's no way to detect e.g. swedish rails, so it might get pretty messy w.r.t. introduction of track types. Or am I overlooking something? 18:42:40 <andythenorth> there's not enough berating of newgrf authors :P 18:42:56 <Rubidium> although... they should all just be using a single specification of rail types 18:43:02 <Rubidium> but they don't 18:43:11 <Rubidium> maybe that ought to be fixed as well 18:43:13 <planetmaker> Rubidium: that's true. But there's the anonymous check for railtypes. So that'll work 18:43:32 <planetmaker> one can check for labels being available 18:43:41 <andythenorth> nobody dares touch cargo classes because MB will be after them 18:43:48 <andythenorth> all it takes is one person... 18:44:02 * Rubidium sacrifices andythenorth for that job ;) 18:44:07 <andythenorth> no no 18:44:23 <andythenorth> if it wasn't for MB I would already have done my own alternative classes 18:44:32 <andythenorth> which would have beeen a Bad Idea 18:44:58 <andythenorth> someone being pernickety about spec is good 18:47:34 * andythenorth remembers HEQS used to disable all vehicles in toyland 18:47:39 <andythenorth> nothing ottd can do about that 18:47:57 <andythenorth> users asked me to change it. 18:47:59 <andythenorth> I changed it 18:48:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth: default vehicles is something else 18:48:29 <andythenorth> what - whether a set disables them? 18:49:10 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 18:50:21 <andythenorth> for reference - HEQS only used to disable it's own vehicles in toyland iirc 18:50:50 <andythenorth> although maybe it also disabled the default vehicles 18:50:52 <andythenorth> I forget 18:51:05 <andythenorth> anyway, I fixed whatever it was that was requested 18:53:22 *** aditsu [~aditsu@119247098106.ctinets.com] has joined #openttd 18:54:51 <planetmaker> the most problematic wrt newgrf configs really is only the cross-talk 18:55:29 <planetmaker> that makes adding additional vehicles (or say other landscape or tree or newobjects newgrfs) so dangerous. 18:56:40 <planetmaker> if you always do the same, independent of other newgrfs... that's unproblematic 18:57:40 <Terkhen> the system is too complicated? :P 18:59:30 *** Pixa [~Pixa@79-68-108-240.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 18:59:59 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that's another % fix 19:00:13 <andythenorth> there are probably enough % fixes to make most of the issue go away 19:00:21 <andythenorth> without navel gazing whether newgrf is all wrong 19:00:39 <andythenorth> but still....adding some types and not others is complex 19:00:50 <andythenorth> and you have to be sure there's no action 0 for a cargo or such in a vehicle grf 19:01:33 <planetmaker> that can in principle be checked 19:03:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, it's a %fix, as you call it. But makeing all newgrfs incompatible with OpenTTD is not a good solution, I think 19:03:19 <andythenorth> it's probably quite a horrible graph of what can and can't be cross-talked though? 19:03:37 <andythenorth> it's valid for FIRS to disable in presence of station names grf for example 19:03:46 <andythenorth> yet station names would seem safe 19:03:46 <planetmaker> the other way is via the scenario path - just regenerate industries, houses and alike and re-initialize everything from point 0 19:03:52 <planetmaker> with a certain discrepancy 19:04:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the station name newgrf defines industries. So in principle it's easy to know that 19:04:54 <andythenorth> does it? :o 19:04:55 <planetmaker> it "just" needs the players to recognize / know that 19:05:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes. That's why it's incompatible 19:05:16 <planetmaker> you define in FIRS also station names. Via industry property you-know-what 19:05:29 <andythenorth> oh yes, that's an industry prop not a station prop 19:05:32 <andythenorth> I recall 19:06:15 <andythenorth> seems to be a lot of work 19:06:23 * andythenorth wonders about a social factor 19:12:30 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 19:16:48 <andythenorth> how about this? 19:16:49 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/no_action_14_1.png 19:16:58 <andythenorth> or maybe this: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/no_action_14_2.png 19:16:59 <aditsu> hi, what are the major changes from 1.0.5 to 1.1.1? I found some changelogs in the wiki but they are really long; so far I mainly noticed depot naming, and the train length was divided by 2 19:16:59 <andythenorth> :P 19:17:41 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-45-146.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:17:49 <Ammler> well, openttd could just assume windows palette for nonaction14 grfs 19:18:11 <andythenorth> not using action 14 is lame for n reasons 19:18:39 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:18:52 <andythenorth> solving the palette issue is a % problem 19:18:55 <andythenorth> hmm 19:19:11 <Ammler> which other? 19:19:22 <andythenorth> savegame compatibility 19:19:31 <andythenorth> remember all those boring chats we used to have about grfid 19:19:33 <Ammler> md5sum 19:19:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the palette issue is a real non-issue 19:20:02 <andythenorth> I think it's an issue 19:20:10 <andythenorth> using the windows palette is a worse choice 19:20:14 <andythenorth> I should have made one that said "This NewGRF is lame: it uses the Windows palette" 19:20:46 <Ammler> the only issue with palette is that we use bad names for it :-) 19:20:50 <planetmaker> aditsu: the changlogs are there for a reason... and the list of lines starting with 'feature' is not dozens of pages 19:21:04 <planetmaker> you have a changlog enclosed with your binary 19:21:29 <andythenorth> Ammler: I assumed that windows palette was best, due to windows being newer than DOS :) 19:21:35 <andythenorth> bad assumption 19:21:53 <Ammler> yes, it should be called reduced and full 19:22:11 <andythenorth> he 19:22:20 <planetmaker> well, it is like it is 19:22:27 <andythenorth> indeed 19:22:46 <Ammler> planetmaker: we were able to get ride of "patches" in settings :-P 19:22:49 <planetmaker> grfcodec and nml could warn about the use of the windows palette 19:22:52 <planetmaker> problem solved 19:23:02 <andythenorth> yup 19:23:37 <Terkhen> aditsu: there is a changelog included with openttd, you can also check it here: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/tags/1.1.1/changelog.txt 19:23:41 <planetmaker> what one could do for added fun add a 3rd improved really 256 colour palette ;-) 19:23:43 <Terkhen> it includes also all "minor" changes though 19:23:46 <planetmaker> 60 colours more than now ;-) 19:23:55 <Ammler> or use 32bpp only 19:24:00 <planetmaker> slower 19:24:04 <Ammler> hmm 19:24:51 <planetmaker> well, let's assume we want to keep 8bpp and 32bpp 19:25:12 <planetmaker> and a 3rd palette ... bad choice to mention it here ;-) 19:25:15 <Ammler> performance is a valid reason 19:27:32 <aditsu> planetmaker: 109 lines 19:27:59 <planetmaker> features? I'm surprised 19:28:09 <planetmaker> have fun :-P 19:28:18 <planetmaker> my memory is too bad 19:28:22 <aditsu> plus 39 "Change"s 19:28:39 <Ammler> aditsu: maybe the news article tells the main changes 19:29:39 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 19:30:45 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host152-94-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:30:59 <Wolf01> hello 19:31:19 <planetmaker> hi Wolf01 19:32:58 * planetmaker remembers sloped stations ;-) 19:33:15 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 19:35:59 <aditsu> I'm playing a new multiplayer game now, and it's running much slower than I'm used to 19:36:17 <aditsu> could that be a server setting? 19:36:49 <Rubidium> sounds like you're normally playing fast forward 19:37:01 <Rubidium> or the server is too slow to actually handle the game at the right speed 19:37:08 <planetmaker> or the server is running a heavily overloaded map 19:37:16 <aditsu> no, I'm talking about multiplayer games, at normal speed 19:37:37 <aditsu> the map is big but not huge 19:37:47 <planetmaker> and the vehicle count is 5000? 19:37:48 <Rubidium> multiplayer goes as fast as single player 19:38:01 <aditsu> there are quote a lot of trains though, let me see.. 19:38:41 <aditsu> I estimate there are about 600 vehicles 19:38:46 <Rubidium> or actually, multiplayer goes as fast as the server could run it in single player excluding things like pausing 19:39:17 <aditsu> yes, but one big difference with multiplayer is that I can't fast forward 19:39:31 <planetmaker> of course you can't 19:39:48 <planetmaker> I'd not say thank you if you fast-forwarded the game I was playing, too ;-) 19:39:56 <planetmaker> thus it's simply not possible 19:40:12 <planetmaker> (mostly for technical reasons, though) 19:40:15 <Wolf01> planetmaker: I would like to continue it, but I have no time at the moment, and if I do, I don't have enough willpower :P 19:40:24 <aditsu> sure, I was just explaining that it's not about normal speed vs fast forward 19:40:33 * planetmaker hugs Wolf01 :-) 19:41:58 * Rubidium wonders whether he has to repeat that the speed of multiplayer is that same as non-fast forwarded play of the exact same game in single player on the server 19:43:05 <Rubidium> unless the server is at its max capacity. Then running it as (dedicated) server is faster than running it as GUI single player, though there'd be no measurable difference between GUI multiplayer server and GUI single player or GUI multiplayer client 19:48:12 * aditsu wonders why everybody seems to think that I got something wrong and they need to explain it 19:49:01 <Rubidium> you were asking whether multiplayer is slower for some reason 19:49:34 <aditsu> I was asking why this particular game could be slower than other ones 19:49:54 <aditsu> actually, let me time it.. 19:51:04 <planetmaker> aditsu: and you got exactly the possible answers to your question. Why do you complain now? 19:51:20 <aditsu> 10 days in about 38 sec 19:51:53 <planetmaker> @calc 38/10/74 19:51:53 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0.0513513513514 19:52:28 <aditsu> planetmaker: well, I got the answer about 3 lines after the question, I'm just saying that the next 20 or so lines were unnecessary 19:52:30 <planetmaker> maybe it's an under-powered server. But we told you that already 19:53:01 <planetmaker> ... ok. as you wish 19:55:21 <aditsu> huh, actually, it's running quite a lot faster now, maybe the server was busy with something else 20:04:49 *** robotx [~robotx@pat-36.wireless.bristol.edu] has joined #openttd 20:08:48 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop_] 20:10:18 *** aditsu [~aditsu@119247098106.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [SeaMonkey 2.0.14/20110420230004]] 20:10:39 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 20:11:46 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:04 *** robotx [~robotx@pat-36.wireless.bristol.edu] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:35:49 <__ln__> is 'h' pronounced in latin? 20:37:10 <planetmaker> that depends on whom you ask, I guess. But usually yes 20:38:12 <planetmaker> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILS6OANQnIc ;-) 20:39:55 <__ln__> umm, teaching pronunciation without sound. 20:41:06 <Terkhen> good night 20:41:28 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen 20:42:19 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:43 <planetmaker> comments say it's not the classical pronounciation shown there 20:43:23 <__ln__> i would only trust a youtube video by a native latin speaker 20:45:36 <planetmaker> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-cjEAHXnZ8&feature=related <-- a version with voice :-) 20:45:50 <planetmaker> native? :-) 20:46:04 <__ln__> yes :) 20:46:05 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:46:52 <planetmaker> so you need some bishop who grew up in vatican ;-) 20:50:12 <Rubidium> rather someone who grew up in ancient Rome 20:50:51 <Rubidium> as pronounciation changes quite a lot in a few thousand years 20:51:46 <planetmaker> he didn't say 'classical latin' ;-) 20:52:12 <Rubidium> well, then any pronounciation is right ;) 20:52:27 <Rubidium> as I don't quite trust the pronounciation from the Vatican 20:52:45 <__ln__> so in classical latin 'h' is pronounced, but not in spanish, italian nor cockney. 20:52:52 <Rubidium> the mess they made of thanking the Dutch for the flowers is quite big 20:54:13 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-092-075-244-040.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:54:37 <planetmaker> __ln__: yes, that's what I seem to recall, too 20:56:11 <__ln__> what went wrong and when? :) 20:57:44 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-154-80-230.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:58:24 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-154-80-230.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 20:58:43 <planetmaker> languages change indeed... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahI5DYakC0I <-- quite hard for me to accept as German ;-) 20:59:05 *** andythenorth [~Andy@46.208.232.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:59:20 <planetmaker> in other parts of the carmina burana they might sing one or another latin dialect - whoever performs it 21:00:28 <Wolf01> 'night all 21:00:32 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host152-94-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:01:43 * __ln__ is reading grammar of italian atm 21:04:32 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:5cc:af03:f3ce:a198] has joined #openttd 21:04:36 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 21:12:14 <frosch123> night 21:12:18 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009c50.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:37 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:13:48 <__ln__> congratulations greece for your new 1.09*10^11 ⬠loan 21:16:44 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e090e25.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 21:17:48 <planetmaker> http://www.ai.uga.edu/mc/latinpro.pdf <<-- __ln__ 21:18:31 <planetmaker> http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/latinlanguage/qt/latinpronounce.htm 21:18:45 <__ln__> thanks 21:19:15 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 21:24:40 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 21:26:40 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:27:33 <__ln__> Berolinum, Monacum, Brunsvicum, ... 21:27:54 <planetmaker> Nunc est dormendum. Bona nox 21:28:25 *** Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.255.237] has quit [Quit: .] 21:28:34 <__ln__> nunca está dormiendo. buena noche? 21:29:06 <planetmaker> indeed. *dormiendum 21:33:37 *** SpComb^ [terom@zerg.fixme.fi] has joined #openttd 21:34:25 <__ln__> pity i've never studied latin. would be useful on #openttd and in vatican. 21:34:57 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:06 *** SpComb^_ [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 21:35:09 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:43 * Prof_Frink did GCSE latin 21:38:11 <__ln__> the finnish broadcasting company transmits news in latin once a week on radio. 21:38:40 <Prof_Frink> And was somewhat surprised when the characters from my Latin course turned up in Doctor Who. 21:53:06 *** SpComb^_ is now known as SpComb 22:01:48 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:23 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 22:07:08 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:24 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 22:11:48 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-021-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 22:15:28 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D911.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:15:57 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 22:18:50 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d0860b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:23:16 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-168-201-36.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 22:30:25 *** Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38:17 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-45-146.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:14 *** Juo [~Juo@cpc11-acto2-2-0-cust244.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:41:06 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 22:43:14 <ccfreak2k> What do you call people that speak Latin? 22:43:17 <ccfreak2k> Dead. 22:45:39 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 22:52:58 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D911.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:32 <lugo-> <frosch123> we should add support for downloading newgrf presets from banans << i think this would very much destroy most arguments for a voting/rating system for newgrfs 22:55:24 <lugo-> how is that not done yet ;) 23:02:46 <Ammler> the download counter should also go as it seems not working anyway 23:03:12 <Ammler> it looks like an "age counter" 23:04:00 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@124-168-201-36.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:12:29 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 23:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler/planetmaker: i now pushed the mq repository with the 3 patches 23:19:22 *** Pixa [~Pixa@79-68-108-240.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:21:00 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and of course i forgot setting the username :p 23:22:12 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 23:23:43 <Ammler> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/openttd-vehiclevars/repository/committers <-- you can map here 23:25:02 <Ammler> you need now to tag with svnrev you want the CF to build against 23:25:14 <Ammler> then enable release building 23:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i do that? 23:25:32 <Ammler> and enable testing so it does alert you if patch does not apply or build anymore 23:25:43 <Ammler> hg tag r<svnrev> 23:26:12 <Ammler> well, first the build settings 23:26:42 <Ammler> mkdir -p .devzone/mq && echo "openttd" > .devzone/mq/mainrepo 23:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> what where how? 23:27:34 <Ammler> shall I do for you? 23:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> svn rev is r22680 23:28:02 <Ammler> or let me show in a clone 23:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, please show me 23:37:46 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 23:47:52 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: https://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars-demo and .mq 23:48:14 <Ammler> and you can now clone it with "hg qclone https://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars-demo.mq" 23:48:37 <Ammler> the openttd CF needs to use the .mq repo 23:49:54 <Ammler> oh, btw. not sure if the findversion.sh bug is fixed in the meantime 23:50:15 <Ammler> does findversion still report the patch as version? 23:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea 23:51:55 <Ammler> well, it should work anyway... 23:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the version string is totally weird 23:52:34 <Eddi|zuHause> says something like "OpenTTD qtip tip patch_nameM" 23:53:05 *** opa [p0Kkn56n@rikki.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:16 <Ammler> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4588 23:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so... do i understand that right testing/enable and and releases/enable are empty files, and mq/mainrepo contains "openttd"? 23:55:36 <Ammler> yep 23:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> "md -p .hg/patches/.devzone/mq"? 23:56:47 <Ammler> yes 23:57:04 <Ammler> or just pull from my repo :-) 23:57:21 <Eddi|zuHause> better if i do that right once ;) 23:58:13 <Ammler> GT from 32bpp patch is a bit absent and I had some changes, need to check, if testing will still work, but the repo creating works 23:58:43 <Ammler> testing runs around the same time when nightly are created 23:58:51 *** opa [mznDjZdH@rikki.fi] has joined #openttd 23:58:52 <Ammler> openttd nightlies 23:59:28 <Ammler> testing simply applies the patches to default and tries to build openttd 23:59:41 <Ammler> if that fails, it triggers a ticket