Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:19:34 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:28 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:23:13 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 00:32:27 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:33:29 *** kaparen [~aabbcc@c-b063e455.94-17-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:44:48 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 00:48:32 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:59 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:22 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz] 01:00:56 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-094-216-032-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:12:00 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D42C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:53 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-016-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 01:56:17 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-107-162.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:00:59 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 02:11:02 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:53:51 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db192fd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:45:44 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 03:51:56 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-195-125.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:40:16 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9970:a62c:7355:30f2] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:55:28 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73D6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:05 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B751AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:47:58 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 07:16:12 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:49:48 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:55:08 <andythenorth> morfing 07:55:50 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:01:05 * andythenorth ponders 08:01:20 <Rubidium> ... breakfast? 08:01:31 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #openttd 08:02:43 <andythenorth> good idea 08:03:58 <andythenorth> also - how to allow changing newgrf parameters without inserting a small bomb into various bits of openttd 08:05:19 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:09:09 <andythenorth> enable / disable vehicles in buy menu for one example 08:09:14 <andythenorth> change running costs for another 08:09:31 <andythenorth> specific hooks for this in openttd seems wrong 08:09:58 <andythenorth> but verifying generic code to show it doesn't cause kaboom seems impossible 08:10:31 <andythenorth> and changing a parameter in one grf might be safe.... 08:10:52 <andythenorth> ...but another grf might decide to disable, then...kaboom! 08:11:39 <Terkhen> good morning 08:12:21 <andythenorth> hola 08:13:02 <andythenorth> what possible good case is there for a grf to disable itself based on *parameters* of another grf? 08:13:09 <peter1138> andythenorth, one way to do it is to store the complete state of everything before and after the change 08:13:24 <peter1138> of course, it'll be different, otherwise there wouldn't be a parameter 08:13:28 <peter1138> so it's unsafe :P 08:13:36 <andythenorth> he 08:14:03 <andythenorth> I suppose I could code a vehicle that depended on a vehicle in another set for some complex reason 08:14:14 <andythenorth> and then I might want to disable my grf if the vehicle is not available 08:14:28 <andythenorth> but there's maybe a better way to do that 08:14:56 <andythenorth> or I might insist that you can't play my grf unless you also have FISH present, with running costs set to High... 08:15:04 <andythenorth> ...because you must only play the game the way I choose 08:16:12 <andythenorth> so basically we have tens of newgrf authors writing explodey code against other people's code, which could be changed at any time. 08:16:19 <Terkhen> yes :D 08:16:25 <andythenorth> how many grfs are known to disable based on other grfs parameters? 08:16:57 <peter1138> it's not just other grfs 08:17:27 <peter1138> say, a parameter that causes vehicles in the set to be different 08:17:53 <peter1138> heh, dbsetxl does that without a parameter anyway :p 08:18:00 <peter1138> (wagon speed limits) 08:18:00 <andythenorth> different how? 08:18:15 <andythenorth> (different in ways that lead to 'kaboom')? 08:18:48 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D022.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:19:01 <peter1138> why do you want parameter changing so bad? 08:19:26 <andythenorth> I like it :) 08:19:30 <andythenorth> why do I want anything so bad :P 08:19:54 <peter1138> you like changing parameters mid-game? 08:20:00 <andythenorth> I do it quite often 08:20:11 <peter1138> how weird 08:20:13 <andythenorth> mostly I like the idea that players can turn off my stupid HEQS vehicles 08:20:43 <peter1138> that is going to break 08:20:53 <andythenorth> nah 08:20:56 <andythenorth> it's fine 08:21:05 <andythenorth> just change the climate byte 08:21:07 <andythenorth> proven tactic 08:21:21 <Terkhen> they can also turn them off by not playing with the NewGRF 08:21:43 <peter1138> or they can just not use them 08:21:51 <andythenorth> true indeed 08:21:57 <andythenorth> the other one is running costs 08:22:01 <Terkhen> I don't know much about the differences between different GRF versions, but would making all dates extended be possible and/or desirable? 08:22:13 <andythenorth> 'running costs' and 'buy costs' parameters are springing up like daisies 08:22:25 <andythenorth> but they make setting up a game an exercise in accounting 08:22:38 <andythenorth> start game, write down costs for all the grfs you want to use, test a bit 08:22:53 <andythenorth> end game, setup new game with new combination of parameters 08:22:56 <andythenorth> test again 08:22:58 <peter1138> well tell the set authors not to do silly things 08:23:17 <andythenorth> like run cost parameters? 08:23:37 <Terkhen> why are those silly? 08:23:42 <andythenorth> well they are 08:23:54 <andythenorth> they're silly because they're not actually useful 08:24:03 <andythenorth> unless you have newgrf developer tools on 08:24:19 <andythenorth> they're kind of pointless to most players imho 08:24:35 <andythenorth> bleargh 08:24:43 <Terkhen> you can always set them up correctly before starting the game 08:24:56 <andythenorth> what's "correct" though? Without testing? 08:25:11 <Terkhen> you need to test, of course 08:25:15 * andythenorth invents a 'transformation layer' which sits between grf and game, and allows player to change things which are safely mutable 08:25:42 <andythenorth> e.g. openttd provides a 'tweak costs' gui for each and every grf that defines things base costs 08:25:53 <andythenorth> :o 08:26:07 <peter1138> personally i prefer to play the game 08:26:45 * andythenorth prefers to poke at newgrf code :P 08:30:02 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:42:00 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-020-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:45:43 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:52:44 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 09:04:38 *** TWerkhoven2 [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:09:39 <andythenorth> hmm 09:09:47 <andythenorth> changing cargo classes in a FIRS nightly... 09:10:04 <andythenorth> is that savegame-breaking enough to require a version bump? 09:11:29 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:18:07 <andythenorth> ach 09:18:09 <andythenorth> it's a nightly 09:21:12 <Terkhen> what cargo classes are you changin? 09:21:16 <Terkhen> changing* 09:21:35 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has joined #openttd 09:25:29 <andythenorth> scrap 09:25:37 <andythenorth> plant fibres 09:25:41 <andythenorth> maybe lumber (not sure) 09:25:41 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 09:25:43 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:25:46 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 09:26:22 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:27:19 <Terkhen> IMO the cargos that are shared with other sets should also share cargo classes, otherwise you will break many sets supporting FIRS 09:27:42 <Terkhen> unless they are not sharing cargo classes already :P 09:28:27 <andythenorth> I am going to unshare one or more classes 09:28:36 <andythenorth> classes / labels /s 09:28:48 <andythenorth> trying to reuse labels was not entirely wise 09:28:58 <Elukka> why not keep compatibility? i mean, i don't get the fundamental importance of whether scrap is piece goods or bulk or whatever 09:29:31 <andythenorth> Terkhen: we tried to reuse some labels for some cargos, but the cargos are not the same, which leads to lots of head-scratching about whether classes are broken :P 09:29:40 <andythenorth> (if that makes sense) 09:29:47 <andythenorth> the problem is mostly that FIRS has been doing it wrong 09:30:17 <andythenorth> the class system, and all the current definitions are exactly right 09:30:49 <Terkhen> I see, then you should not change cargo classes, you should add new cargo labels 09:30:54 <Terkhen> but that will be confusing too :) 09:31:10 <Terkhen> I tend to agree with Elukka 09:31:41 <Elukka> unless there's something that really doesn't make sense, i guess 09:32:18 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:32:32 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I'm going to add new labels where they are needed, and change classes where that's not going to break anything 09:34:14 <Terkhen> why are those changes needed? 09:35:34 <andythenorth> because they have the wrong classes ;) 09:36:38 <Terkhen> and? it works 09:36:39 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 09:37:05 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23123 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4790] (r22792): variable was initialised at the wrong moment making things with the cursor go wrong 09:37:31 <andythenorth> not really 09:37:48 <andythenorth> it requires vehicle set authors to add FIRS specific support, which is bad behaviour by FIRS 09:38:13 <Terkhen> in which cases is that happening? 09:39:12 <andythenorth> scrap, plant fibres 09:39:24 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:39:26 <andythenorth> lumber is a different weird case that is probably not going to change 09:39:30 <andythenorth> also wood 09:40:29 <andythenorth> and sugar cane 09:40:42 <Terkhen> wood is different from vanilla wood? 09:40:42 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:40:49 <peter1138> reusing labels? hmm 09:41:02 <Terkhen> also, plant fibres is shared, in which way is it different? 09:41:17 <andythenorth> plant fibres is bulk in ECS 09:41:20 <andythenorth> but not bulk in FIRS 09:41:34 <Yexo> that is really bad 09:41:39 <Terkhen> yup 09:42:18 <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you plan to change cargos, take your time and choose a definitive scheme 09:42:24 <andythenorth> I did 09:42:33 <andythenorth> you missed yesterday ;) 09:42:57 <Terkhen> I have to say that it wasn't very difficult for me to add FIRS support to ogfx-rv 09:43:04 <Terkhen> so I don't see many reasons for change 09:43:12 <andythenorth> this won't break vehicle set support, it's class based 09:43:13 <Terkhen> if it has to be changed... keep it simple :P 09:43:32 <andythenorth> if "classes may never be changed" then classes are broken 09:44:16 <Yexo> why would classes ever change? 09:44:24 <Yexo> and yes, in principle classes should never change 09:44:41 <Terkhen> the point is to give vehicle set authors a fixed frame for implementing cargo support :P 09:44:53 <Yexo> a vehicle includes and excludes some classes, than adds specific support for cargos not in those classes 09:45:15 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-121-58.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 09:45:17 <Yexo> if one of those cargo's was sudenly in an included class the special case would suddenly disable instead the cargo (it's a xor-mask) 09:45:45 <Yexo> so basically whenever the cargo classes of a cargo change you tisk breaking vehicle set support 09:46:59 <andythenorth> in that case I'm still confused :( 09:47:02 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:48:13 <andythenorth> what is the point of classes at all? 09:48:15 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-121-58.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 09:48:21 <andythenorth> do they do anything useful? 09:48:24 <Yexo> to provide some future compatibility 09:48:34 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-121-58.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 09:48:44 <Yexo> if sets use cargo classes correctly vehicle sets can support cargos that don't exist at the time they were made 09:48:53 <andythenorth> it just seems very broken to me :( 09:48:56 <andythenorth> it makes no sense 09:49:01 <Yexo> not with special graphics, but by having at least one wagon that can transport them 09:49:53 <andythenorth> somewhere there is something very wrong about this system 09:50:25 <andythenorth> it's basically unusable :( 09:51:51 * andythenorth is depressed by it 09:52:17 <Terkhen> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-rv/repository/entry/src/cargo_definitions.pnml <--- with cargo classes I can define some "generic" containers; if a new cargo that fits any of them is created later, I don't need to implement support for it in my vehicle set 09:52:50 <Terkhen> this assumes that cargo classes for existing cargos are fixed, and that new cargos specified correctly will appear later 09:53:05 <Terkhen> if old cargos change their cargo classes, my set might lose support for them 09:53:23 <andythenorth> ^ that means classes are broken fundamentally 09:53:29 <Terkhen> broken how? 09:53:38 * andythenorth tries to explain 09:53:45 <andythenorth> hmm 09:53:48 <andythenorth> it's really clear in my head 09:53:53 <Yexo> why are they broken? If cargoclasses had been used correctly from the beginning there would never be a need to change them for existing cargos 09:53:54 <andythenorth> ok 09:53:57 <andythenorth> so 09:54:15 <andythenorth> the point of classes is to provide abstraction between vehicle sets and cargos? 09:54:43 <Yexo> partly, and partly to provide future compatibility with new cargos 09:54:57 <andythenorth> so when creating a vehicle newgrf, an author has two sets of cargo to consider: 'known' and 'unknown' 09:55:10 <andythenorth> the set of 'known' cargos are in the wiki, and have labels 09:55:19 <andythenorth> we use classes to provide support for 'unknown' cargos 09:55:39 <andythenorth> at this point if we have cargo A in the known set, and I code my vehicle grf all is good 09:55:50 <andythenorth> later cargo B appears, and is in the unknown set 09:55:52 <Terkhen> ideally, most if not all of the known cargos should also be supported via cargo classes 09:55:58 <andythenorth> I've set classes that can support cargo B 09:56:03 <Terkhen> yes 09:56:10 <andythenorth> now cargo A is changed, moving it into the 'unknown' set 09:56:17 <andythenorth> and suddenly everything goes 'boom' ? 09:56:24 <Yexo> andythenorth: since the refit properties are limited to the first 32 cargos from the cargo translation table, quite a lot of known cargos are also supported via classes 09:56:46 <Yexo> <andythenorth> now cargo A is changed, moving it into the 'unknown' set <- it only goes in the "unknown" set if it gets a new label 09:57:06 <Yexo> if you just change the classes the vehicle set still has it in the "known" set but makes wrong assumptions about it 09:57:09 <andythenorth> so to preserve the abstraction, the label must change? sounds reasonable 09:57:23 <Yexo> if you chagne the label you effectively create a new cargo 09:57:34 <andythenorth> in which case that sounds like a very valid solution 09:57:48 <Yexo> that means you have to specific cmopatibility in existing sets, so no special graphics etc. 09:58:01 <Yexo> but if the vehicle sets are than updated they can easily support both the old and the new label 09:58:42 <andythenorth> ok 09:58:47 <andythenorth> so none of us are smoking crack it seems 09:59:36 <andythenorth> this means I need to figure out a migration path for each of the cargos that will change 09:59:49 <andythenorth> which is fine 09:59:50 <andythenorth> thanks 10:01:12 <andythenorth> versioned cargo labels anyone? :P 10:01:18 * andythenorth will bbl 10:01:27 <andythenorth> thanks for the help 10:01:28 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 10:07:07 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:08:35 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20111008085652]] 10:10:29 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 10:13:59 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:14:12 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:16:52 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-055-168.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 10:18:00 *** Spl1nt [dcec82df@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:19:14 <Spl1nt> www.clamtxt.com/?r=37882 ...best site ever lol guys lets u send 10 free texts a day anywhere in the world free and anonymous .. if u sign up u get 50 ... i just sent 50 txts to a m8 lol he shit brix 10:19:14 *** Spl1nt [dcec82df@ircip2.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 10:25:52 <TrueBrain> LOL! 10:26:07 <TrueBrain> who in this world is still interesting in that? YOU ARE OLD Spl1nt! :P 10:26:20 * Alberth cannot even read it 10:37:48 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 10:38:02 <Wolf01> hello 10:38:10 <Wolf01> lol, it's peter's hour here 10:41:54 <TrueBrain> it is? 10:42:17 <Elukka> huh. never ran into irc spambots before 10:42:32 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:44:38 <Wolf01> TrueBrain, sure: -> [11:38:44] <Wolf01> lol, it's peter's hour here 10:48:03 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49:29 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:49:37 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:53:20 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-76-159.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 10:56:33 <Wolf01> it would be possible to get the railtype with the query tool? with 8 railtypes I can't remember which one I used 6 months ago to build the line and they look enough similar to me 10:57:44 <Wolf01> ok, maybe if I enable the visualisation of catenary I only have to choose between 4 types 10:57:47 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe358.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:11:29 <Qantourisc> Wolf01: wait 8 types ? 11:11:41 <Wolf01> nu-tracks 11:14:27 <Qantourisc> i don't understand nutracks :/ 11:15:12 <Qantourisc> Wolf01: a workaround is trying to replace ... but that sounds bad 11:16:50 <Wolf01> np, I found it by trying to build a diagonal piece aside of an existing diagonal piece (a crossing would have worked too) 11:19:58 <Alberth> Wolf01: sounds like a useful thing to have 11:22:58 <Qantourisc> http://imagebin.org/182749 11:23:16 <Qantourisc> Why is the train waiting ? 11:23:22 <Qantourisc> isn't the other path "good enough" ? 11:23:41 <Qantourisc> or is it because the other paths are "more costly" ? 11:24:17 <Wolf01> did you built the station with running trains? 11:24:29 <Qantourisc> "with running trains" ? 11:24:44 <Qantourisc> Hmmm i added road to increase the cost... and it took the other entrence now ... 11:25:02 <Wolf01> connected/removed a piece while a track was reserved 11:25:06 <Qantourisc> no 11:25:16 <Qantourisc> I added some road 11:25:21 <Qantourisc> and now he picks the other one 11:25:28 <Qantourisc> he must always pick the cheapest path then ? 11:25:31 <Qantourisc> (when trying to pass) 11:26:11 <Qantourisc> One for FAQ i quess ... 11:26:12 <Wolf01> the pathfinder always looks for the cheapest path 11:26:15 <Qantourisc> Can i upload that picture ? 11:26:26 <Qantourisc> or is it too ugly ? :) 11:27:13 <Yexo> Qantourisc: have you tried also placing path signals directly after the platform? 11:27:48 <Qantourisc> wouldn't that make the central stations even MORE cheap ? 11:28:05 <Qantourisc> Bad design i know though :) 11:28:13 <Yexo> it'd make the central platform free when there is a train waiting after the station, like in your image 11:28:16 <Alberth> what problem are you solving? 11:28:32 <Qantourisc> The train not taking the green path 11:28:38 <Yexo> as long as there is a train that platform the cost is very high because all tiles are occupied 11:28:53 <Alberth> why not? 11:28:55 <Yexo> I'm not sure if the pathfinding stops at the end of the station or if it continues to the next signal 11:29:05 <Yexo> if the latter, placing signals at the end of the platforms would help 11:29:10 <Qantourisc> Yexo: aa like that ... that might actually work :) 11:30:00 <Alberth> Yexo, Qantourisc: path signal blocks stop at the next signal 11:30:08 <Qantourisc> a ok good 11:30:10 <Qantourisc> fixed :) 11:30:16 <Yexo> Alberth: yes, but that's not the problem 11:30:27 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-37-188.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 11:30:29 <Yexo> the question is where the pathfinder stops adding costs to the route 11:30:41 <Yexo> at the end of the platform or at the first signal after the platform 11:31:34 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:31:40 <Qantourisc> presignal doesn't seemt to be affected by this though 11:31:52 <Qantourisc> Yexo: when you place them close it works. 11:32:08 <Yexo> if you use presignals you force a train to take any exit signal that is green, regardless whether it leads to it's destination or not 11:32:23 <Alberth> the former sounds illogical to me tbh, but I am not even sure what problem is being solved :) 11:33:07 <Yexo> I agree it sounds somewhat illogical, but if placing signals close the station works that might be it 11:35:29 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-121-58.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:35:36 * Alberth does not see what conclusion is being drawn, but that's ok :) 11:37:44 *** KouDy2 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:38:09 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:39:35 *** KouDy2 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:39:39 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:41:00 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:51:12 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:53:13 *** KouDy2 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:56:23 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:59:08 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:59:14 *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:02:55 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-99-216.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:04:36 * andythenorth wonders what label to set for 'new' scrap metal 12:04:53 <andythenorth> SCPM perhaps? 12:08:46 <frosch123> packaged scrap metal? :p 12:09:29 <Alberth> SCRAP :) 12:09:40 <Alberth> hmm, too long :( 12:10:28 <Alberth> what's wrong with 'metal' ? 12:11:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: could use metal 12:11:57 <andythenorth> be a bit of an odd chain...deliver metal to the steel works to get metal... 12:11:59 <andythenorth> hmm 12:12:10 <andythenorth> one solution would be to delete the scrap metal cargo 12:12:21 <andythenorth> this would free a cargo slot and solve the class problem 12:12:23 <Alberth> yeah, you want to distinguish between shiny new metal and rusty old ones 12:12:25 <andythenorth> and I could remove an industry 12:12:36 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-99-216.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:14:32 <Alberth> it'd be easy money, deliver produced metal back to the same industry :) 12:14:49 <andythenorth> you'd only get 4t out for your 8t in :P 12:15:14 <Alberth> or find 2, and transport back and forth, just like passengers :) 12:15:27 <andythenorth> another solution would be to swap the unit to 'crates' instead of 't' 12:15:33 <andythenorth> and leave it as piece goods 12:15:44 <andythenorth> hmm 12:16:01 <andythenorth> enforcing 'piece goods = crates', 'bulk = t' might have been a fun idea 12:16:15 <Alberth> do you have a paper chain, that has the same problem 12:16:18 <andythenorth> clearly 'liquid = l' already 12:16:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: no paper chain :D 12:16:41 *** blotek [~blotek@aeoe106.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 12:17:33 * Alberth proposes SCMT for scrap metal 12:17:37 <andythenorth> ok 12:17:56 <andythenorth> I'll add it to the wiki, and deprecate SCRP 12:18:41 <Alberth> but it does not really matter, does it? almost any 4 letters will do 12:18:57 <andythenorth> pretty much 12:19:14 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-99-216.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:21:05 <andythenorth> this will be interesting 12:21:30 <andythenorth> I'll need to update HEQS to the new cargo. Which means it will lose support for the old scrap metal cargo 12:21:39 <andythenorth> I don't have enough CTT slots spare for backward compatibility 12:22:33 <andythenorth> it also means we now have two cargos called "Scrap Metal" listed in the wiki 12:23:42 * andythenorth shrug 12:26:04 <Yexo> if the cargo classes are now correct, you wouldn't need to have the new (or old) scrap metal in the first 32 entries of your CTT 12:26:30 <andythenorth> I have some vehicles which explicitly support scrap metal (and not much else) 12:26:40 <andythenorth> so they need scrap in the refit mask 12:27:48 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:37:50 <andythenorth> hmm 12:37:54 <andythenorth> I've broken FIRS 12:38:05 <Terkhen> bbl 12:38:11 <andythenorth> changing the cargo label from SCRP to SCMT breaks the build 12:38:50 <andythenorth> nmlc: "sprites/nml/industries/recycling_plant.pnml", line 128: Unrecognized identifier 'SCRP' encountered 12:39:19 <Yexo> if you change the label in your CTT you also have to change all places where you use it 12:39:30 * andythenorth ...grep 12:39:33 <Yexo> and don't forget to change the cargo property that sets the label 12:40:02 <andythenorth> I think I did that :) 12:40:09 <andythenorth> that's probably *all* I did so far :P 12:40:28 <andythenorth> thanks 12:40:29 <Yexo> nah, you changed at least the cargo translation table too, or you wouldn't get that error 12:41:34 <andythenorth> find + replace in just one file = fail :) 12:42:19 <andythenorth> now I need to figure out how to add new classes 12:42:47 <andythenorth> Yexo: are cargo classes defined in FIRS code, or are they an nml macro? 12:43:10 <Yexo> the cargo property "cargo_classes" (it's in cargo_props.pnml) 12:43:26 <yorick> r23115 forgot to remove a comment 12:43:27 <Yexo> cargo_classes: bitmask(CC_PIECE_GOODS); <- only piece goods 12:43:39 <Yexo> cargo_classes: bitmask(CC_PIECE_GOODS, CC_BULK); <- both piece goods and bulk 12:44:04 <andythenorth> so if I need to define CC_NEO_BULK...? 12:44:07 <Yexo> list of constants: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Cargos#Cargo_classes 12:44:16 <andythenorth> ok 12:44:24 <yorick> network_admin.cpp#234 should've been removed I think 12:44:34 <Yexo> you'd need to either define that via cpp "#define CC_NEO_BULK 13" (to use bit 13) or change the nml code 12:45:00 <andythenorth> I should probably just do it in FIRS for now 12:45:12 <andythenorth> want to test it to see what might go wrong 12:45:53 * andythenorth needs to learn to differentiate constant and macro in nml 12:46:04 <andythenorth> are macros always callable - ie. FOO() 12:46:29 <Yexo> a constant is simply a number in nml 12:46:39 <Yexo> macros are supported by gpp, not by nml 12:46:55 <andythenorth> so when I'm reading code - how do I distinguish one from the other? 12:47:10 <andythenorth> otherwise I ask the wrong question 12:47:20 <Yexo> 3 <- that's a constant 12:48:06 <andythenorth> and #define FOO = 3 is a define which will be replaced by the constant 12:48:33 <Yexo> ABC <- that can either be a define that gpp handles, or it's an identifier. An identifier is handled by nml and can actually be a lot of things. There are a lot of known identifiers that nml maps to a constant 12:48:41 <Yexo> like CC_PASSENGERS is mapped by nml to 0 12:48:48 <andythenorth> ok, I think that's why I find FIRS code so hard to understand 12:49:05 <andythenorth> all my previous code only used defines and includes, not anything else 12:49:23 <Yexo> think of the named nml constants as "#defines" 12:49:33 <Yexo> nml has a lot of buildins, like "#define CC_PASSENGERS 0" 12:50:05 <Yexo> gpp also supports parameters for defines, and in that case you can "call" them 12:50:12 <andythenorth> ok so that's all fine, I just need to remember to say 'constant' instead of 'define' 12:50:23 <Yexo> like: "#define ABC(a) (a + a) 12:50:37 <Yexo> if you than write "ABC(5)" later it's replaced by "(5 + 5)" 12:50:53 <Yexo> that's all done by the preprocessor, nml than later simplifies that 5+5 to 10 12:50:55 <andythenorth> so that's fairly dumb string replacement? 12:51:01 <Yexo> yes 12:51:10 <andythenorth> nothing is calculated? 12:51:20 <Yexo> not by the preprocessor 12:51:23 <andythenorth> ok 12:51:39 <Yexo> nml does calculate whatever it can at compile-time, so there is no problem with that 12:51:50 <Alberth> yorick: it is an extra explanation what is happening there 12:51:55 <Alberth> we have more such comments 12:52:00 <Yexo> it doesn't matter if you write "1+1+1+1" or "4", it'll result in exactly the same nfo/grf 12:52:07 <yorick> Alberth: except r23115 made it not happen anymore 12:52:34 <Alberth> oh 12:52:44 <yorick> or am I mistaken? 12:52:49 <andythenorth> hmm compile time compilation calculation is a brave new world 12:52:56 <andythenorth> :) 12:56:14 <Alberth> yorick: if (ci == NULL) return NETWORK_RECV_STATUS_OKAY; is still there, and the cs->GetInfo() seems to have moved up to the caller context 12:57:01 <Alberth> I'd say the comment is about that 'if', not about the info getting 12:58:58 <yorick> this->SendClientInfo(NULL, NetworkClientInfo::GetByClientID(CLIENT_ID_SERVER)); <-- it uses the info of the server 12:59:29 <andythenorth> he 12:59:35 * andythenorth puzzles over refit masks :0 12:59:39 <andythenorth> 1D 10 00 // Refittable cargo classes 12:59:39 <andythenorth> 1E EF 0B // Non-refittable cargo classes 12:59:49 <andythenorth> I've set a class to use bit 11 13:00:01 <Alberth> yorick what else can you do with cs == NULL ? 13:00:07 <andythenorth> so the mask above should give me bulk, excluding nearly everything else? 13:00:13 <Alberth> previously that would have crashed 13:00:45 <yorick> Alberth: it isn't called with ci == NULL anywhere 13:01:13 <yorick> I think the if should be changed to an assert 13:01:45 <yorick> (or can their be NULL cis in FOR_ALL_CLIENT_SOCKETS?) 13:02:21 <__ln__> yorick: are you still porting OpenTTD to C#? 13:02:22 <andythenorth> Yexo: #define CC_NEO_BULK 11 would give me a class on bit 11? I don't need to escape it? Or set 800 or anything? 13:02:23 <Yexo> andythenorth: that gives you all cargos that are bulk but not in any other class 13:02:31 <yorick> __ln__: I wasn't 13:02:34 <Yexo> andythenorth: no, that's enough 13:02:37 <andythenorth> hmm 13:02:41 <Yexo> bitmask(a) does that for you 13:02:44 <andythenorth> failing for me right now 13:02:52 <yorick> __ln__: I dislike C# 13:03:01 <Yexo> bitmask(4) == 0x10, bitmask(5) == 0x20, bitmask(4, 5) == 0x30 etc. 13:03:44 * andythenorth tests 13:03:49 <Yexo> cargo_classes: bitmask(CC_NEO_BULK); <- that should work after your define 13:05:16 <andythenorth> and if there are two classes, they're comma separated for that prop? 13:05:22 <andythenorth> cargo_classes: bitmask(CC_BULK, CC_NEO_BULK); 13:05:30 <Yexo> yes 13:05:40 <andythenorth> FIRS appears to be setting them 13:05:49 <andythenorth> HEQS appears not to be paying attention to bit 11 13:06:15 <andythenorth> if I set 1E to FFFFh, it still doesn't exclude SCMT 13:06:40 <Yexo> if you set 1E to FFFFh it shouldn't be able to carry anything 13:06:49 <Yexo> except for those cargos you specially allow 13:07:01 <Alberth> yorick: it may depend on whether you consider the admin part 'someone trying to query the server'. (which it is not, I think) 13:07:18 * andythenorth tests a bit more 13:07:27 <Alberth> is it 1 ? 13:07:36 <yorick> the comment is confusing :-) 13:07:36 <andythenorth> let's try setting prop 16 to \wx00 13:08:26 <Alberth> yorick: it is english text, which is ambiguous by definition :) 13:08:38 <andythenorth> hmm 13:08:44 <andythenorth> my vehicle disappeared from the buy menu 13:08:55 <yorick> SendClientInfo shouldn't be called with ci == NULL, but it surely shouldn't fail silently if it is 13:09:06 <andythenorth> I guess 00000000h for prop 16 causes it to be hidden 13:09:06 <Yexo> if it can't carry anything (which you just accompliished) it's indeed removed from the buy menu 13:09:21 <andythenorth> so I have to have at least one type refittable? 13:09:27 <andythenorth> I can't just rely on classes 13:09:27 <Yexo> it's 0 for prop 16 in combination with FFFh for prop 1E 13:09:32 <andythenorth> ok 13:09:35 <Yexo> you can rely on classes 13:09:43 <Yexo> but you disabled every class, and than didn't enable any cargos 13:09:45 <andythenorth> yup 13:09:47 <Yexo> that means no cargos at all 13:09:49 <andythenorth> this makes sense 13:10:01 <andythenorth> this is fun :) 13:10:11 <andythenorth> ok 13:10:29 <andythenorth> ok so if I set 1D to 1000h and 1E to EFFFh I get... 13:10:38 <andythenorth> all the bulk cargos 13:10:51 <andythenorth> including SCMT, which also has bit 11 set for neo-bulk 13:10:59 <andythenorth> so the excluding isn't working :P 13:11:08 <andythenorth> or I'm not setting neo-bulk correctly :) 13:11:12 <Yexo> that's actually get you all covered cargo 13:11:32 <Yexo> hmm, wait 13:11:47 <Yexo> 1D to 1000h enables all neo-bulk 13:11:57 <andythenorth> really? 13:12:13 <andythenorth> it's possible that all my words have the wrong endian order 13:12:18 <Yexo> most likely 13:12:19 <andythenorth> and I might have just been lucky so far 13:12:23 <Yexo> how you write it in your nfo? 13:12:28 <Yexo> 1000h = 00 10 in nfo 13:12:34 <andythenorth> 1D 10 00 // Refittable cargo classes 13:12:34 <Yexo> or \wx1000 13:12:34 <andythenorth> 1E EF FF // Non-refittable cargo classes 13:12:43 <andythenorth> it's been like this for about 2 years :P 13:12:47 <Yexo> 10 00 in fno is usually written as 0010h 13:12:53 <andythenorth> oops 13:13:00 <Yexo> but that indeed enables all bulk 13:13:08 <andythenorth> interestink 13:13:21 <Yexo> and 1E EF FF disables everythingcept bulk 13:13:32 <Yexo> so you should only get cargoes that have bulk and no other classes set 13:13:36 <andythenorth> so plausibly, bit 11 is not being set by the cargo? 13:13:47 * andythenorth thinks how to check 13:14:15 <Yexo> could you send me your patch for firs? 13:14:43 <andythenorth> yup 13:16:16 <andythenorth> Yexo: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2082/add_neo_bulk_class.diff 13:16:31 * andythenorth will be embarrassed if it's a typo :o 13:17:22 <Yexo> the patch looks fine 13:17:36 <andythenorth> have you got HEQS checked out? 13:18:16 <Yexo> not yet, but can easily do taht 13:18:26 <andythenorth> try editing any of the mining truck refits 13:18:40 <andythenorth> hopefully obvious where / how :) 13:19:10 <Yexo> ok, will try 13:27:18 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1882a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:28:59 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 13:34:19 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 13:35:03 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 13:37:18 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 13:42:38 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:53:52 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:02 <Yexo> andythenorth: "1D 10 00" "1E EF FF" works fine for me 14:00:12 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-195-125.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #openttd 14:00:18 <andythenorth> ok 14:00:23 <andythenorth> I must be doing something wrong :) 14:00:23 <Yexo> not refitable to scrap metal, but is refittable to bauxite, clay, coal, grain, iron ore, sand, stone and sugar beet 14:00:27 <andythenorth> perfect 14:00:53 <Yexo> "16 00 00 00 00" <- I set prop 16 to zero for this test 14:00:58 <Yexo> that can cdhange all those cargos of course 14:02:14 <andythenorth> hmm 14:02:22 * andythenorth might need a facepalm emoticon 14:02:46 <andythenorth> perhaps /me should try a vehicle that *isn't* articulated :P 14:03:43 <andythenorth> sorry :o 14:03:47 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 14:04:42 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:b91c:6cfd:c68b:ee15] has joined #openttd 14:04:45 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 14:15:15 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-178-007-113-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:19:22 * andythenorth wonders if a set of refitting conventions should be written and stuck in the wiki 14:20:42 <supermop_> sounds like a plan 14:22:04 <Terkhen> as soon as you get an agreement on said conventions :P 14:22:20 <andythenorth> :P 14:22:39 <andythenorth> if they could be baked in, then there's less headache 14:23:02 <andythenorth> maybe nml could encapsulate them, with some constant where you specify vehicle type 14:23:12 <andythenorth> and that's then expanded at compile time 14:23:39 <andythenorth> and if you want more detail, learn about the magic of the three different props that control refit :) 14:24:17 <andythenorth> there's only so many common types of road/rail vehicle 14:25:46 <andythenorth> flat bed, stake truck / bulkhead flat, open truck, box van with doors, hopper / dump truck, tanker, covered hopper / silo 14:26:05 <andythenorth> covered flat wagon (full width doors or curtain sides) 14:26:07 <andythenorth> reefer 14:26:25 <andythenorth> what did I miss? 14:27:26 * andythenorth updated the wiki with new classes 14:27:27 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Cargos#CargoClasses_.2816.29 14:28:21 <Elukka> http://media.riemurasia.net/albumit/mmedia/8n/77/azvb/63603/867861422.jpg 14:33:23 * andythenorth ponders rearranging HEQS cargo translation table 14:34:07 <andythenorth> I don't refit anything to 'armoured', so I have slots wasted with VALU, GOLD, etc 14:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS has two parts for the translation tables, first the cargos that are used in refit lists, and second part the cargos that are needed for special graphics 14:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> although the whole scheme may need some retouching after an actual test game 14:38:03 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-055-168.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:39:00 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-053-063.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 14:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like this: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/cargo_definitions.pnml 14:43:43 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-178-007-113-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:44:42 <Eddi|zuHause> a closed wagon then has a refit mask of: piece,expr,-pass,-overs,-liqu,BEER,MILK,-LVST 14:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what "expr" is actually used for, might want to leave that out 14:51:10 *** Sigvatr [sig@114.73.81.139] has joined #openttd 14:51:13 <Sigvatr> hi 14:51:21 <Sigvatr> is the nearest town to a station the local authority? 14:51:33 <Sigvatr> i tried doing lots of advertising in the nearest town but my rating won't go up 14:51:34 <Sigvatr> its like 30% now 14:53:09 <TWerkhoven2> use the query tool on nearby land 14:53:22 <TWerkhoven2> in some odd cases, it might not be the town it seems 14:53:41 <Sigvatr> arghhh 14:53:45 <Sigvatr> fuck that game 14:53:56 <Sigvatr> maybe i should try and keep the stations closer to town centers 14:54:17 <Sigvatr> how do you improve a station rating if it isn't near a town? 14:54:17 * Alberth gives Sigvatr the 'erase from HD' tool. 14:54:26 <Sigvatr> haha no not the whole game 14:54:27 <Alberth> provide good service 14:54:32 <Sigvatr> just that one i was playing 14:54:50 <Alberth> always have a train collecting cargo, do fast delivery of the cargo 14:54:57 <Zuu> Also mind that the station location is where the sign is. 15:01:44 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-178-007-113-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 15:12:40 *** KOPOBA [~xren@PPPoE-78-29-115-55.san.ru] has joined #openttd 15:12:53 <KOPOBA> hello what font and size of font you use for ottd? cant choose =( 15:13:13 <Zuu> You can in your openttd.cfg 15:13:29 <KOPOBA> yes i can 15:13:36 <KOPOBA> but cant choose 15:14:32 <yorick> KOPOBA: helvetica? droid sans may be ideal for the size too 15:14:48 <Zuu> I'm on Windows and us e"Tahoma" as small font. For the others, I use the default font. 15:15:09 <KOPOBA> yep helvetica is ok i think 15:17:00 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-178-007-113-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:02 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-178-007-113-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 15:17:11 <KOPOBA> and what numbers you advice for 1024x768 ? 15:17:54 * Alberth uses standard openttd font at 1280x1024 15:18:27 <Zuu> KOPOBA: What is your screen size? 15:18:38 <Zuu> 17 or 19" ? 15:18:59 <KOPOBA> 17 15:19:59 <Zuu> Unless you have problem with your eye sight, the medium and large font is probably okay to use the built in font. 15:20:06 <Zuu> For small, a good size is 10. 15:20:48 <Zuu> If you need the custom font for russian characters, then try with the default sizes and see if they are good. If not change and try again. 15:21:22 <KOPOBA> what deffault size ottd use? 15:21:46 <Zuu> For small I think it is 8 15:21:57 <Zuu> medium := 10, large := 16 IIRC 15:22:43 <KOPOBA> ok rhanks 15:22:46 <KOPOBA> *thanks 15:24:24 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-195-125.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:29:56 <Sigvatr> i verified that a farm was under a local authority of the nearby town 15:30:03 <Sigvatr> i bought advertising again and nothing happened 15:30:06 <Sigvatr> what the fuck is wrong with this game 15:31:09 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-37-188.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 15:31:24 <Sigvatr> it worked in the past 15:31:34 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-37-188.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 15:31:35 <Yexo> your station is probably not close enough to the town center 15:31:59 <Yexo> the only thing advertizing does it giving a temporary boost in station ratings for station close the to town 15:32:06 <frosch123> advertising only works for stations close to the center 15:32:28 <frosch123> so most stations near industries are not affected by any advertising 15:32:51 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23124 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Change: [NewGRF] Interpret the result of the refit cost callback as a signed value. 15:33:38 <frosch123> the advertising is restricted to stations with a manhattan distance <= 10 from the town center 15:33:56 <frosch123> (distance between town and station sign) 15:34:06 <Yexo> doesn't that depend on advertizing size? 15:34:27 <frosch123> oh, indeed 15:34:32 <frosch123> 10 for small, 15 for med, 20 for large 15:35:17 <frosch123> i thought it only had an effect on the amount 15:35:18 <andythenorth> so is it acceptable to extend classes on a default cargo, e.g. adding 'clean' to grain etc? 15:35:30 <andythenorth> and if yes, should that be done in ottd, or just industry sets 15:35:33 <andythenorth> ? 15:35:45 <Yexo> both 15:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the ingame description should probably be more verbose 15:37:12 <Sigvatr> and how does a farm produce 90 cows a month 15:37:19 <Sigvatr> they grow on cow trees 15:37:29 <andythenorth> 'clean' is on bit 12, unless anyone knows a reason it shouldn't b 15:37:30 <andythenorth> be 15:38:08 <Eddi|zuHause> not 90 cows. 90 tons of cow 15:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> when a cow weighs several tons, you get fewer cows 15:38:47 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, 90 items of livestock 15:38:58 <frosch123> it's a piece cargo, not builk 15:39:04 <andythenorth> it should be neo-bulk :P 15:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, ok 15:40:02 <andythenorth> actually livestock are a good indicator 15:40:11 <andythenorth> you can move cows in open wagons, or cattle trucks 15:40:15 <andythenorth> but you don't move them in box vans 15:40:22 <frosch123> @calc 3/16 15:40:23 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 0.1875 15:40:29 <andythenorth> although in Smokey and the Bandit 2, they moved an elephant in a box trailer 15:40:31 <frosch123> one cow actually only weights 187 kg 15:42:29 * andythenorth does an experiment 15:42:40 <andythenorth> wondering what happens if you set a class no vehicle sets know about 15:42:47 <andythenorth> but you have vehicles that refit anything 15:43:04 <andythenorth> hmm 15:43:07 <andythenorth> the answer is not good :P 15:43:18 *** dihedral [~dih@znc.noaddedsugar.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:43:47 *** dihedral [~dih@znc.noaddedsugar.net] has joined #openttd 15:44:41 <frosch123> if the set authors were clever enough, they would have set the classes to 0x7FFF 15:44:56 <frosch123> if they want to transport all 15:45:06 <andythenorth> they haven't I bet :) 15:45:15 <andythenorth> I certainly didn't, although I am not clever 15:45:17 <andythenorth> just noisy 15:45:32 <frosch123> i think av8 actually does that 15:46:10 <andythenorth> hmm 15:46:10 <andythenorth> no 15:46:20 <andythenorth> you won't be transporting sugarcane by airplane :P 15:46:32 <andythenorth> I guess the safe thing is I set piece goods and neo-bulk 15:47:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: why not? just because it is expensive? 15:47:18 <Alberth> but those people in the west need sugar desperately! 15:47:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: because if I set just neo-bulk, you won't get any refittable planes :) 15:48:01 <andythenorth> it's a shame that we can't invent a way for grfs to subscribe to definitions of vehicle types, which are provided by ottd 15:48:16 <andythenorth> then we abstract away from old / unmaintained / slow releasing grfs 15:48:19 <frosch123> so, wagons which transport neo-bulk but exclude piece cargo won't be able transport it? 15:48:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: this is the downside of adding to a well-established class scheme :P 15:49:10 <andythenorth> a vehicle which transports neo-bulk, but excludes piece cargo is frankly made by someone who has been smoking crack 15:49:22 <andythenorth> transporting piece, but excluding neo-bulk is sane 15:50:02 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 15:50:29 <andythenorth> or I can ship a version of FIRS with no vehicle support for some cargos ;) 15:50:57 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:54:21 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23125 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: Replace some 8s with TILE_SIZE / 2. (adf88) 15:54:41 *** KOPOBA [~xren@PPPoE-78-29-115-55.san.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:43 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-178-007-113-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:13:25 <z-MaTRiX> hii 16:17:00 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:21:38 <supermop_> would it not have been easier to instead class cargoes by their means of unloading? 16:23:12 *** Celestar [~dax@mnch-5d869ae8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:24:15 <Sigvatr> how many wagons will fit in a 7 length station 16:27:20 <frosch123> depends on the length of the wagons 16:28:08 <frosch123> unless you use an outdated version of openttd, the depot gui will tell you the length of the train in number of tiles 16:33:08 <andythenorth> supermop_: wrt cargo classes - probably not 16:34:50 <andythenorth> classes are good, but they are part of a system that is both complex and complicated 16:35:06 *** Celestar [~dax@mnch-5d869ae8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:08 *** Celestar [~dax@mnch-5d869ae8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:52:04 <Sigvatr> the train breaking down sound is so great, everytime i hear it i just think lol 16:52:11 <Sigvatr> especially when it happens to someone else's train 16:52:31 <Alberth> :) 16:56:59 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 16:57:03 *** APTX| [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you should watch out when it happens to horses :p 17:01:03 <Sigvatr> something is wrong, i'm picking up goods from a factory with a full load, but once they arrive at a town, they don't get sold 17:01:10 <Sigvatr> i don't hear a kaching noise or any money go up 17:01:17 <Sigvatr> but the goods are offloaded anyway 17:01:21 <Sigvatr> is someone robbing my train 17:01:55 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> do they stockpile at the station? 17:03:09 <Eddi|zuHause> when you click on the station, does it say "200 crates of goods (from A-Town factory)"? 17:03:25 <Sigvatr> no 17:03:29 <andythenorth> ho ho 17:03:38 <andythenorth> no it's not christmas 17:03:47 <Sigvatr> can i click on a train to see what it is carrying 17:03:48 <Sigvatr> so i can be sure 17:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 17:04:01 * andythenorth has just finished fixing the lighting on HEQS trams, and they suck less 17:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> click on the train, and in the train window, click on the details button 17:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> (small sheet of paper on the right) 17:04:42 <Sigvatr> oh god i found out what is happening 17:04:44 <Sigvatr> they get to the station 17:04:47 <Sigvatr> and unload all the goods 17:04:50 <Sigvatr> then they put them on the train again 17:04:52 <Sigvatr> lol 17:05:05 <Sigvatr> why aren't they being sold 17:05:21 <Eddi|zuHause> probably your station does not cover enough office buildings 17:05:27 <Eddi|zuHause> only those accept goods 17:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you typically need 3 of them 17:06:34 <Sigvatr> ok, i'll take them to a bigger town then 17:06:38 <Sigvatr> but still 17:06:39 <Sigvatr> lol 17:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: if you use "unload all" orders, you should combine this with "no loading" 17:09:27 <Sigvatr> well basically my idea was that the trains would carry livestock and grain to the factory, then the factory would make shit and they would load the goods in while still at the factory, then deliver it to the town where the farm is 17:10:09 <Sigvatr> is it against the rules to build bridges over other people's railways 17:10:13 <Sigvatr> because i just got kicked and banned i think 17:10:20 <Sigvatr> i can't authorize to the server 17:11:04 <Sigvatr> never mind, connection problems 17:13:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that is certainly not against any rules... 17:13:44 *** Celestar [~dax@mnch-5d869ae8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:14:28 <Yexo> Sigvatr: there are no universal rulse 17:14:43 <Yexo> the owner of every server decides what the rules on his/her server are 17:16:13 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: if you want peaple on your server :) 17:19:35 <michi_cc> Ladies and Gentleman, please have a game: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/infra_maint_v2.patch :) 17:19:40 <michi_cc> Now with non-linear costs, signal costs and a severe penalty for those pesky all-way rail tiles. Enable it in Advaned Settings | Economy, play a game and watch detailed costs in the company window. 17:19:54 <michi_cc> Tinkering with the base costs in table/pricebase.h welcome, I can't test-play every kind of game style myself. 17:20:40 <andythenorth> michi_cc has been busy again :D 17:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't keep up with this... 17:21:58 <andythenorth> me neither :P 17:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i am seriously considering postponing any openttd-related stuff until christmas-ish 17:24:05 <andythenorth> I can't upgrade grfs fast enough to keep up with features :P 17:24:14 <Sigvatr> so to sell goods to a town, they need 3 commercial buildings? 17:24:19 <Sigvatr> how can i make them have more buildings 17:24:51 <andythenorth> michi_cc: is there any summary for that patch, or would it be obvious if I compiled it? 17:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, if i don't update CETS now, i a) forget everything, and b) i don't hit the next blocking limitation before the next feature freeze 17:31:44 <z-MaTRiX> hi 17:31:45 <z-MaTRiX> :) 17:32:02 <z-MaTRiX> ahaha the mactiny http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17DPJHNVx2Q&feature=related 17:33:23 * Eddi|zuHause is seriously considering the special friend list 17:36:57 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< what do you mean by that? 17:37:12 *** blotek_ [~blotek@aeoe106.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 17:38:46 <andythenorth> maybe I should stop fixing newgrf lighting and write nfo 17:39:03 <Eddi|zuHause> learn nml ;) 17:39:43 <andythenorth> that will just slow things down even further :) 17:41:20 <Sigvatr> is it a good idea to have a train which carries nothing, but arrives and leaves a station frequently just to keep rating up? 17:41:44 <andythenorth> Sigvatr: http://home.c2i.net/cecilieTT/misctric.htm#pyglet 17:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Sigvatr: a vehicle only affects rating when it actually carries that cargo type 17:43:14 <Sigvatr> oh 17:44:20 *** blotek [~blotek@aeoe106.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:45:38 <frosch123> but it is a common cheat to have a small truck constantly loading and unloading again at the same station 17:46:37 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Very short summary: Regular maintenance costs for company owned tracks, roads and canals. 17:48:15 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 17:49:00 <Sigvatr> why does all midi music ever written have to be jazz or salsa music 17:50:26 <frosch123> maybe other types of musics care about what instruments they are played with 17:54:24 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-195-125.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #openttd 17:57:45 <appe> midi music might be the most horrible thing ever to haunt planet tellus. 17:57:58 <appe> it's like justin bieber times a googolplex 17:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i have seen people do crazy stuff with midi. like a "street organ orchestra". multiple organs that are synched by a midi device 18:00:24 <andythenorth> michi_cc: is there a rebalancing aim, or is it just for fun? :) 18:00:32 *** Celestar [~dax@mnch-5d869ae8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:00:41 <appe> using a midi clock != midi music 18:00:47 <appe> midi music is that horrible windows music thingy 18:00:56 <appe> midi hardware is something fantastic 18:01:17 <michi_cc> andythenorth: It's for those that think making money is too easy. 18:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's something that was requested by MB :p 18:05:50 <andythenorth> how interesting 18:05:53 * andythenorth bbl 18:05:54 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:11:40 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 18:15:05 <planetmaker> evening 18:17:07 <Terkhen> hi planetmaker 18:23:54 <z-MaTRiX> how would you rasterize a circle with x=212.111,y=333.5454,radius=333.222,linewidth=0.111 ? :) 18:24:46 <Alberth> take an infinitely small raster, and draw a circle 18:25:35 <z-MaTRiX> i'm currently writing the transfer function , and willing to render that 18:25:36 <Alberth> depending on your coordinate system, you may end up with a small dot :) 18:25:56 <z-MaTRiX> was thinking about anti-aliasing/subpixel-rendering 18:25:59 <frosch123> â² sounds like a useable raster for that 18:26:57 <michi_cc> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=57293 18:27:12 <michi_cc> YAIM - (Yet Another) Infrastructure Maintenance Patch 18:27:13 <Alberth> z-MaTRiX: define it in svg, and let the backend handle it? 18:27:25 <z-MaTRiX> that's too easy :( 18:27:53 <z-MaTRiX> though i'm the backend 18:28:08 <z-MaTRiX> using SDL only with a framebuffer 18:30:19 <frosch123> michi_cc: the catenary is stolen quite often, isn't it? :p 18:30:51 <frosch123> oh, i misread the statistics 18:31:30 <frosch123> what's "Tramawy"? :p 18:31:37 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:31:49 <z-MaTRiX> Tramway ? 18:32:35 <z-MaTRiX> (used Artificial Interpolation) 18:40:12 *** Celestar [~dax@mnch-5d869ae8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:45:03 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23126 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed) 18:45:03 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:03 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belarusian - 17 changes by Wowanxm 18:45:03 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 24 changes by eloekset 18:45:03 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: polish - 17 changes by nouwak 18:45:04 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: spanish - 17 changes by Terkhen 18:45:04 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 17 changes by nglekhoi 18:47:19 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:47:33 <z-MaTRiX> hi girl whatsup ? 18:48:24 <michi_cc> frosch123: A typo I guess :) 18:48:54 <Rubidium> michi_cc: you should iterate road types the same way as rail types in YAIM ;) 18:50:03 <Rubidium> s/rail/road/ (case insensitive but keeping the case) should do the trick 18:54:47 <michi_cc> frosch123: I don't see no typo anymore ;) 18:57:09 <frosch123> ⥠double negations 19:10:59 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: regarding those speed units: I wouldn't change them to something based on km/h as that will mean OpenTTD needs to internally go to km/h which means reintroducing that "bug" about vehicles not going the right speed 19:12:06 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-195-125.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 19:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i guess the main point is a) all vehicles should use the same speed units, from nfo/nml perspective (to decouple from internal handling), and b) it should allow fractional values for less rounding errors. 19:16:24 <Rubidium> those fractional values don't play nice with the internal speed code 19:16:44 <Rubidium> (at least for trains and RVs) 19:17:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a secondary issue 19:17:15 <Rubidium> now they "encode" how far the vehicle can go in sub-unit units 19:17:40 <Rubidium> which means you need a fractional subspeed (which already is a fraction of sorts) 19:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the actually usable values might have lower resolution than the values provided by the grf. but the decoupling means the OpenTTD implementation may be switched later without influencing the grf specs 19:19:18 <Rubidium> true 19:19:59 <Rubidium> the question is whether less than ~0.5 km/h is really useful 19:20:08 <Rubidium> (in granularity) 19:21:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it is, when you want to model mph without rounding oddities 19:22:58 <Eddi|zuHause> with 1 mph ~ 1.6km/h 19:23:38 <Rubidium> I don't see why. With ~1 km/h I can imagine, well... prove, that one in N km/h can't be modelled with km-ish/h. But with 0.5 km-ish/h you can prove you can model each km/h and each mph 19:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought with one nibble as fixed point allows for better coding in hex values 19:26:12 <Rubidium> the main problem NML has is that OpenTTD's internal algorithm does some round at some points in the algorithm which means you'll get a slightly different result than when you perform all mathematical operations and then round 19:27:07 <Rubidium> but yes, a nibble might be usefull when working with hex 19:27:36 <Rubidium> on the other hand, a single bit might work better for decimal (just multiply by 2) 19:28:10 <Alberth> (x >> 3) * 2 ? 19:28:58 <Rubidium> no, if you want 74 km-ish/h, then write \w148 19:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: how is *2 easier than *16 in decimal? :) 19:29:34 <Alberth> @calc 74*16 19:29:35 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 1184 19:29:42 <Rubidium> but... with a factor 16 it'd be \w1184 which is a multiplication I can't do as easily in my head 19:29:51 <Rubidium> as I multiply or divide by 2 19:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i seriously want to get rid of km/h-ish at least for all user interfaces. 19:30:51 <Rubidium> okay... 19:30:58 <Rubidium> what about hm/h-ish? ;) 19:31:07 <Rubidium> or... 0.0625 mph 19:31:18 <Alberth> Rubidium: 1 bit may not be enough, the code may just start flipping the last bit, which you can still see 19:32:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: if you se it that way, the current granularity is 0.625 mph 19:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause> (for trains) 19:32:36 <Rubidium> yes 19:33:06 <Rubidium> but what's the difference between 0.0625 mph or 0.0625 km/h user interface wise? 19:33:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: which is neither useful to model exact km/h values, nor exact mph values 19:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, i'd be fine with my proposal of XXXY format with mph instead of km/h 19:34:50 <Rubidium> although you'd be adding (unused) granularity 19:35:03 <planetmaker> not exactly 19:35:19 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-145-15.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 19:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but that granularity may still be used at a later date 19:35:25 <planetmaker> it'd be feasible to add some velocity values which then could be used later 19:35:27 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it'll definitely be unused until the whole speed code is revised 19:36:03 <planetmaker> yes... but future-proof the speed properties. It's somewhat a point 19:36:10 <planetmaker> and would make revision possibly easier 19:36:17 <planetmaker> when done in two years or so 19:36:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you can easily halve the granularity by calling TrainController only once per internal speed unit 19:37:22 <Rubidium> yup 19:39:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but really, the point is to allow this kind of refactoring later, without worrying about the grf specs 19:39:48 <Rubidium> but the specs aren't the biggest problem 19:40:29 <Rubidium> see the aircraft accel and speed 19:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> no. but one less problem is one less problem :) 19:40:54 <Rubidium> internally that's in km-ish/h, but in the spec it's in 8mph 19:41:27 <Rubidium> *and* we still need to do it for pre-grfv8 NewGRFs 19:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that kind of rounding will be in the newgrf abstraction layer then 19:41:49 <Rubidium> so you'd be adding two bits of spec handling that needs to be handled 19:42:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, one conversion for grf<8 and one for grf>=8 19:43:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't see a better opportunity coming up 19:43:43 <Rubidium> that's true 19:45:28 <planetmaker> "it's a good opportunity now" is somewhat convincing... hm 19:50:20 <Rubidium> ah, so you're volunteering? ;) 19:52:25 <z-MaTRiX> multiple suns are shining at mutexland, where deadlocks are your friend :) 19:53:35 <Rubidium> 7 properties, 4 variables, and one headache: subspeed 19:55:06 <Rubidium> (which is the exposing an implementation detail of the speed calculations) 19:55:27 <Rubidium> +of 19:55:44 <planetmaker> why would it be exposed? 19:56:31 <Rubidium> if you want to make use of the higher granularity in the speed, then subspeed needs to become bigger as well 19:57:37 <Rubidium> although, there is an caveat with mph/16 as number: you need to divide by 10 when passing it into the "distance moved" calculation 19:59:18 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:00:12 <Rubidium> which, ofcourse, isn't a nice factor for computers to divide by 20:01:28 <planetmaker> yes... 20:01:46 <planetmaker> though currently the factors are not really nicer either. Just a factor of 10 higher 20:02:10 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 20:03:46 <Rubidium> planetmaker: they are very nice; just add "speed" to subspeed. Divide by 256. The quotient is the number of units to move, the remainder is the new subspeed 20:05:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: there is no reason why the factor of 10 needs to be used in the internal speed units 20:06:52 <andythenorth> where's the fun in not multiplying speeds by 3.2 or 0.8 or whichever it is of those props that actually gets used 20:07:00 <Rubidium> so the proposal is: use 1/16 mph in the specs and immediately trash it to 10/16 mph for trains and 5/16 mph for RVs? 20:07:27 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-37-188.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:14 <andythenorth> does grf v8 deprecate useless props and refuse to compile if they're used? 20:08:40 <Rubidium> it doesn't 20:08:55 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> we could deprecate the short dates 20:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> or stuff like the split properties 20:10:28 <frosch123> short dates are already deprecated 20:10:49 <frosch123> you may set them for old versions, but you do not have to 20:10:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was weight which was split between low and high byte 20:11:49 <frosch123> i see no point in changing that 20:11:53 <frosch123> it only adds to the mess 20:12:00 <frosch123> and you do not see it when using nml 20:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> different thing: what about all the "must be zero for articulated parts" properties? there's hardly ever a reason to forbid this 20:12:34 <frosch123> [21:12] <frosch123> it only adds to the mess <- esp wrt. other tools 20:13:07 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: "must be zero" is only to ensure that they can get a meaning later 20:13:13 <frosch123> which is independent of grfv8 20:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. there's no reason why articulated parts shouldn't have weight 20:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> or price 20:13:42 <Rubidium> they're just ignored ;) 20:13:46 <frosch123> exactly. that's why it is "must be zero" for now. so if they get weight, grfs stay the same 20:14:33 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the specs generally do not state stuff like "unused" or "ignored" 20:14:44 <frosch123> as then the grfs do just write random junk in it 20:15:01 <andythenorth> mine do :P 20:15:10 <andythenorth> I missed that bit of the spec for HEQS 20:15:19 <andythenorth> I wrote a ticket to myself about it 20:15:49 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-37-188.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 20:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so... conclusion: it's not depending on grfv8, it just needs someone to actually implement it 20:15:57 <andythenorth> any chance of extending refit mask to > 32 cargos? 20:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: unlikely... 20:16:45 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: mind that it makes no sense to implement it, as long as trains sum te and power for the whole train before doing the minimum 20:16:57 <frosch123> and that is an optimisation 20:17:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: shall i link you to the callback again? 20:17:24 <andythenorth> :) 20:17:27 <frosch123> i only linked it 3 times this week :p 20:17:32 <andythenorth> sorry :| 20:17:43 <andythenorth> so many new things I need to code / test 20:17:53 <andythenorth> still busy *fixing the fricking lighting* 20:18:53 <andythenorth> still have to implement decay rate 20:19:00 <andythenorth> still have to do canal speed fraction 20:19:08 <andythenorth> still have to do the auto-refit support 20:19:11 <andythenorth> :o 20:19:27 <frosch123> your clones need to grow faster 20:19:55 <frosch123> does any un convention forbid child-labour on newgrfs? 20:20:06 <andythenorth> probably not explicitly 20:20:16 <andythenorth> I doubt there's a clause about pixel art or nfo 20:20:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: where's the callback? 20:20:38 <Alberth> not even on nfo?!? 20:23:30 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Do I need to be worried as each item on your list was me? :p 20:23:49 <andythenorth> I just like having a to-do list :) 20:24:06 <andythenorth> it's much easier to write nfo than ask people to patch the game 20:24:20 <andythenorth> continuously asking for patches is hard work :P 20:24:40 <planetmaker> you just should kick your ass a bit and have a go at NML ;-) 20:25:01 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I am reading the infrastructure patch - but can't see if it enables railtypes to specify a maintenance cost multiplier... 20:25:16 <andythenorth> give me an excuse to start a railtypes set.... 20:25:47 <planetmaker> and you should revert the sugar cane cargo classes... they're definitely not piece goods... 20:26:20 <andythenorth> they're definitely not bulk either 20:26:23 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Citing from my forum post "NewGRF support for rail type specific cost factors." Would be prop 1B. 20:26:41 <andythenorth> planetmaker: a bundle of sugar cane *is* piece goods according to the intention of that class 20:26:48 <andythenorth> whereas sugar cane is *never* bulk 20:26:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth: look at the issue I created. 20:26:57 <planetmaker> It clearly is transported as bulk... 20:27:15 <planetmaker> neither over-sized nor bundled 20:27:27 <andythenorth> nah 20:27:31 <andythenorth> bulk is things that flow 20:27:37 <andythenorth> that's the mistake we keep making 20:27:41 <andythenorth> bulk != bulky 20:27:42 <planetmaker> yup. Sugar cane sticks of 30cm do flow 20:27:50 <planetmaker> and definitely is not "piece goods" 20:28:00 <planetmaker> Thus you break all vehicle sets without good reason 20:28:05 <Alberth> planetmaker: what do you think of these tracks? http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/snow_problems.png 20:28:13 <andythenorth> planetmaker: break how? 20:28:22 <andythenorth> are classes classes, or are they labels? 20:28:29 <planetmaker> which is not a "break savegames" but a "break newgrfs" issue. Much worse. 20:28:29 <andythenorth> I wish we could decide, it's getting tiresome 20:28:37 <Alberth> the long piece seems to have some weird pixels 20:29:02 <andythenorth> either classes are abstractions, or they are precise cargos, in which case they are redundant because we have labels already 20:29:16 <planetmaker> I don't talk about classes. I talk about one cargo 20:29:18 <Alberth> and the top-left two pieces are very unclear to me what tracks they have 20:29:26 <planetmaker> Which you changed the properties of to the total opposite 20:29:32 <planetmaker> Which is - sorry - bullshit 20:29:58 <andythenorth> please explain why 20:30:09 <planetmaker> this "today this, today that" is totally not funny in this respect :-( 20:30:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth: see the issue I opened. Sugar cane *is not* piece goods. 20:30:33 <andythenorth> yes it is 20:30:35 <planetmaker> See the linsk 20:30:39 <planetmaker> look at the images 20:30:41 <planetmaker> It is not 20:30:50 <andythenorth> you misunderstand the intention of the current cargo classes 20:31:00 <planetmaker> of course 20:31:11 * Alberth tiptoes out of here 20:31:19 <planetmaker> so do I 20:32:18 <andythenorth> sugar cane was added as an explicit label to handle this issue, differentiating it from sugar beet, which is bulk 20:33:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth: *did* you look at the links I provided? 20:33:37 <andythenorth> yes 20:33:43 <planetmaker> Did you see that? Or do you argue out of thin air? 20:33:54 <andythenorth> hmm 20:33:55 <planetmaker> Is that piece goods as in "boxed sugar cane pieces or bundles? 20:34:04 <planetmaker> Or does it look like a pile of small sticks? 20:34:05 <andythenorth> 1 mins 20:35:15 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you think it *should* be bulk, *shouldn't* be piece goods, or both? 20:35:30 <andythenorth> I have no strong feelings about piece goods aspect 20:35:37 <planetmaker> ... 20:35:55 <planetmaker> it should just remain bulk as it was. Simple revert 20:36:08 <planetmaker> If you want, you can add the oversized 20:36:17 <planetmaker> But piece... doesn't seem right at all 20:36:22 <andythenorth> ok 20:36:29 <planetmaker> though I personally don't see the oversized by what I saw 20:36:41 <andythenorth> I added piece because the class I think it should have is neo-bulk, which has zero cargo set support (so far) 20:36:43 <andythenorth> http://www.art.co.uk/products/p955883855-sa-i4067229/posters.htm 20:36:45 <planetmaker> And... why don't you change the cargo label there, too? 20:36:52 <planetmaker> Or why did you change it for scrap metal? 20:36:53 <andythenorth> the cargo label is new 20:36:57 <planetmaker> That's totally inconsequent 20:37:08 <planetmaker> The diff doesn't list a new cargo label 20:37:10 <andythenorth> the cargo label can be changed 20:37:17 *** Ola [~Ola@178235241182.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has joined #openttd 20:37:34 <planetmaker> I'm not in favour of adding yet another new and soon-to-be-deprecated label, though 20:37:42 <planetmaker> We did that to way too many cargo labels already 20:38:13 <andythenorth> do you want to add a new label for sugar cane? 20:38:33 <andythenorth> we can use SRCN 20:38:37 <planetmaker> mostly I'm mad about what seems a quick-shot change for existing cargos which has not properly been thought-through 20:38:44 <andythenorth> why? 20:38:48 <andythenorth> these are not new tickets 20:38:52 <andythenorth> these are long standing issues 20:39:02 <planetmaker> as cargo changes mean to change all existing newgrfs 20:39:06 <andythenorth> sugar cane was split from sugar beet for this precise reason 20:39:19 <planetmaker> and adding new labels means that specific support has to be added (again) for the new ones 20:39:25 <planetmaker> both is at least tedious 20:40:29 <b_jonas> uh, can't a cargo have multiple labels? 20:41:07 <andythenorth> planetmaker: some of the definitions are wrong. They impose extra work on set authors, that's wrong, and it needs to be fixed. 20:41:28 <michi_cc> It seems to me the current way of cargo support using labels and classes doesn't really work if it means once a cargo is introduced you can never ever change anything at all. 20:41:41 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@a79-169-1-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #openttd 20:41:43 <andythenorth> basically between those of us who've set the cargo labels (mostly me), there have been misunderstandings 20:41:52 <andythenorth> primarily because in english 'bulk' and 'bulky' sound similar 20:42:05 <andythenorth> and also because I set some labels to suit me in HEQS, instead of doing proper cargo support 20:42:09 <andythenorth> both are wrong 20:42:44 <andythenorth> FIRS is not yet even 1.0, and has always carried a warning about changes 20:43:43 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1882a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 20:43:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: if that's the case, then you must not publish the used cargo specs. 20:44:04 <planetmaker> As they're added to the wiki, they're official 20:44:14 <andythenorth> ok 20:44:18 <andythenorth> that is a good point 20:45:19 <andythenorth> michi_cc: the current cargo support is pretty good, but it seems to be surrounded by problems 20:45:41 <andythenorth> conceptually it's really sound, but it's very easy to make mistakes that have a high penalty 20:45:43 <planetmaker> michi_cc: if you change the specs, you simply have to name it differently 20:45:58 <andythenorth> I only today understood what MB intended by 'bulk' 20:46:15 <planetmaker> you don't really want to tell me you mixed up bulk and bulky, do you? 20:46:22 <andythenorth> yes, for a long time 20:46:30 <planetmaker> o_O 20:46:36 <andythenorth> I raised this issue in forums some time ago 20:47:01 <andythenorth> about 6 months ago or such 20:47:15 <andythenorth> :) 20:47:34 <andythenorth> first post in this thread :) http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53654 20:47:52 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-195-125.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #openttd 20:48:27 <planetmaker> I guess no-one understood that you didn't understand English... 20:48:44 <planetmaker> (I didn't at least) 20:49:14 <andythenorth> stupid language anyway 20:49:18 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-87-172.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 20:49:22 <andythenorth> one 'y' totally changes the meaning :P 20:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause> <michi_cc> It seems to me the current way of cargo support using labels and classes doesn't really work if it means once a cargo is introduced you can never ever change anything at all. <-- i think the only problem with that is the "XOR" with the explicit cargo mask. if that was split into an "OR" and an "AND NOT" mask, most of the problems with switching cargo classes would disappear 20:51:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's not like I didn't discuss this about 10 million times here :P 20:51:34 <andythenorth> no-one pointed out the mistake, we just got stuck on it every time 20:52:18 <planetmaker> It might explain why these discussions were so unproductive and annoying... 20:52:28 <andythenorth> yup 20:53:29 <planetmaker> Pointing out that you don't mean 'bulk' when you say 'bulk' is a bit difficult, don't you think? 20:53:37 <andythenorth> so I tried to figure out what MB *intended* by the classes (assuming it was MB), which led me to Wikipedia...which led me to the shipping industry has had exact same problem: cargos that overlap both bulk and piece goods 20:53:43 <andythenorth> hence neo-bulk 20:53:53 <planetmaker> except telling you that your argument is about... nonsense. Which was refuted 20:55:02 <andythenorth> he 20:55:10 <andythenorth> in the uk you can make a bulk order of logs 20:55:25 <andythenorth> and a bulk delivery of cars 20:55:37 <andythenorth> but you wouldn't use a bulk carrier for either 20:55:37 <planetmaker> which refers not to the cargo property at all 20:55:53 <planetmaker> thus has no place in cargo classes 20:55:58 <andythenorth> I'm not arguing - the mistake was mine entirely :P 20:56:10 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-37-188.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:57:53 <planetmaker> @logs 20:57:53 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd 20:59:14 <andythenorth> so one thing we should do is to not publish cargo labels? 20:59:35 <andythenorth> at least until FIRS 1.0 20:59:41 <andythenorth> should we remove them from the wiki? 20:59:46 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i really wonder how you reach any of your conclusions... 21:00:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I mostly think we should not now change the cargo classes of the existing cargos. But wait. Gather the ideas. Weigh the ideas 21:00:57 <planetmaker> Not quick-"fix" like now. And change it again. But do that all from 0.9 to 1.0 21:00:57 <andythenorth> because the cost of changing is too high? 21:00:58 <planetmaker> or so 21:01:03 <planetmaker> yes. Much so 21:01:09 <andythenorth> hmm 21:01:30 <andythenorth> I was trying to get all this done with only one major savegame break since 0.6 release 21:01:30 <planetmaker> and thinking a bit more about it than 24h on one way to change it, is too little imho 21:01:43 <planetmaker> lol. It was broken between each version 21:01:56 <andythenorth> ? 21:02:05 <andythenorth> how? 21:02:06 <planetmaker> And there'll be reasons to break it also between each future version. I'm sure 21:02:22 <planetmaker> firs 0.3 != 0.4 != 0.5 != 0.6 != 0.7 21:02:31 <planetmaker> version = major version 21:02:34 <andythenorth> ok 21:03:07 <andythenorth> unlikely we'll do a 0.7 final release though 21:03:11 <andythenorth> that's nitpicking 21:03:11 *** Sigvatr [sig@114.73.81.139] has quit [] 21:03:20 <planetmaker> ? 21:03:28 <andythenorth> we only released the beta to the forums 21:03:34 <planetmaker> so? 21:03:42 <andythenorth> next release will be 0.8 I think 21:03:58 <andythenorth> probably when stable ottd has caught up 21:03:59 <planetmaker> err, why that? 21:04:19 <planetmaker> why skip a 0.7? 21:04:38 <andythenorth> why release 0.7? Unless we backport a lot, which we could 21:05:18 <planetmaker> we just don't backport, but tag trunk as 0.7 21:05:38 <planetmaker> or tag a 0.7 in the branch and publish that with the betas 21:05:45 <planetmaker> backporting is not fun really 21:06:31 <Wolf01> nighty night 21:06:33 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:07:09 <andythenorth> well we could release 0.7 21:08:06 <andythenorth> we had a reason for possibly skipping it, but I don't remember 21:08:10 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 21:08:27 <planetmaker> putting up 0.7 on bananas makes FIRS unavailable for stable OpenTTD 21:08:35 <planetmaker> via bananas 21:09:00 <andythenorth> we did have a plan 21:09:03 <planetmaker> it's nor FIRS' fault, but that's how it (still) is 21:09:19 <planetmaker> yes, other grfID for trunk FIRS. But meh 21:09:21 <andythenorth> there were plausible reasons to *never* release 0.7 on bananas, but go straight to 0.8 21:09:32 <planetmaker> dunno 21:09:44 <andythenorth> maybe we just got to the 0.7 beta and stopped there 21:10:08 <andythenorth> perhaps we were waiting for translations against 0.7.x, but now they're mostly coming against tip afaik 21:13:19 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 21:15:42 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-87-172.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:17:05 <Zuu> Or just release it and encourange more people to use the OpenTTD nightlies? 21:18:04 <Alberth> translations are mostly ad-hoc imho, perhaps you should post and explicitly ask for updates 21:19:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: I guess I should have put bold text in here :D http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=967432#p967432 21:20:48 <supermop_> this bottle of ginger beer has a nasdaq trading symbol on the label 21:20:50 <Alberth> I missed that entirely :p 21:20:54 <Zuu> hmm, wxWidgets is sloooow. I need to throttle my commands to it or it consume 50% of a CPU core when it get constantly updated :-( - my SDL GUI barely touches the CPU usage. (or go back to SDL :-) ) 21:21:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: it wasn't bold enough ;) 21:21:18 <Alberth> I mean the entire post :) 21:21:38 <supermop_> i guess they are hoping that halfway through I'll decide that it's so great that I'll run to a computer and buy a bunch of their stock... 21:22:02 <__ln__> Zuu: what are you doing with wx exactly? 21:22:58 <Zuu> I'm trying to port Junctioneer to it, but I start to question what I really gain by doing it. 21:23:36 <Zuu> Though, I beleive part of my questions is because I don't know it good enough yet. 21:25:05 <andythenorth> frosch123: did this get any better yet :D http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=44248&hilit=refit+callback 21:25:18 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like you'd benefit from gathering multiple updates before you actually update everything 21:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe you should release 0.7-RC1 with a notice to update translations within the next 2-4 weeks? 21:26:56 <andythenorth> perhaps 21:27:03 <andythenorth> but tip is way ahead of the 0.7 branch I think 21:27:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: i started the topic instead of starting an edit-war on the wiki 21:27:13 <andythenorth> which means translators might be translating against dead code 21:27:33 <frosch123> mb was adding non-sense back then :p 21:27:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: alternatively just release tip as 0.7-beta2 21:27:42 * andythenorth never wanted to add the FIRS labels to the wiki :( 21:28:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that could be a good idea 21:28:23 <andythenorth> maybe not while this cargo shenanigan is happening though :) 21:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> agreed :) 21:29:36 <andythenorth> all I feel like I've done for the last 2 days is piss everyone off, and that's even before MB eventually deigns to respond in the forums to my proposals 21:29:43 <andythenorth> yet all I'm trying to do is correct mistakes 21:30:03 <andythenorth> cargos are very expensive in heartache :P 21:30:06 <frosch123> how about adding "hazardous" to "bubbles"-cargo? 21:30:25 <frosch123> they are explosive after all 21:31:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: I think I like the cb route :P 21:32:03 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:32:05 <andythenorth> although it does nothing to help the 'cargos cannot be changed, but new cargos shouldn't be added' problem 21:32:09 <Terkhen> good night 21:32:12 <frosch123> i think i add the cb after the grfv8 queue 21:32:34 <andythenorth> I think I update HEQS to use it 21:33:00 <andythenorth> it might avoid a savegame break or some *really* tedious work 21:33:09 <frosch123> i thought earlier this day, that the alternative "cargo shall define which vehicles can carry them" is nonsense, since the vehicles define the graphics to use 21:33:14 <frosch123> and should know better what to carry 21:33:35 <frosch123> andythenorth: note that the cb number will change :p 21:33:48 <andythenorth> "cargo shall define which vehicles carry them" is going down the route of 'there are fixed types of vehicles' 21:34:01 <andythenorth> which isn't how It has been done, and is not compatible with current approach 21:34:49 <andythenorth> *all* of my cargo gripes are solved by (a) fixing my own stupid mistakes (b) introducing neo-bulk class 21:35:56 <andythenorth> frosch123: how about a cb to change cargo classes during game :D 21:36:03 <andythenorth> on the cargo 21:36:33 <andythenorth> water is liquid in summer, but piece goods + oversized in winter 21:36:51 <michi_cc> Zuu: Obviously I don't know where you CPU time goes, but if you update several controls at once, using Freeze() + Thaw() might help a lot. 21:38:20 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 21:38:58 <Zuu> michi_cc: Thanks, I indeed update several controls. It's the node junction window which lists all incomming and outgoing connections. They are ordered by the angle of the inputs/outputs. So when you move the node, the GUI is updated. Since the GUI was repainted almost for free before, I think it updated the GUI every time the node was moved without checking if it is needed or not. 21:39:53 <michi_cc> http://docs.wxwidgets.org/stable/wx_wxwindow.html#wxwindowfreeze 21:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: any possiblity the refitability-callback can do something like predetermine the allowed cargos for autorefit? e.g. if i have a tanker wagon, i could have two separate sets: "autorefit (food, milk, alcohol)" and "autorefit (oil, fuel, chemicals)", which would be available in the order list? 21:40:38 <michi_cc> Freeze applies to all Controls and not only Windows here of course. 21:40:58 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:41:06 <Zuu> Inded as in wx a control is a window :-) 21:41:51 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: sounds very difficult 21:42:04 <frosch123> and makes only sense to known cargos 21:42:18 <frosch123> i.e. not cargoclass based 21:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, it could make sense e.g. with the proposed "clean" cargo class. 21:44:13 <andythenorth> should I revert my wiki update to classes btw? 21:44:31 * andythenorth is always a bit worried about editing wiki 21:44:53 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Cargos#CargoClasses_.2816.29 21:44:57 * planetmaker is more worried about changing specs too quickly w/o time to consider stuff 21:45:27 <planetmaker> changing as in breaking existing definitions 21:45:55 <frosch123> i just wanted to start a topic to discuss whether default cargos shall gain any of the new classes 21:47:14 <andythenorth> I tried to clarify the definitions of the other classes as well 21:47:43 <planetmaker> that might be a good idea, frosch123 21:51:52 <andythenorth> planetmaker: bulk, piece goods, AND neo-bulk for sugar cane? :o Perhaps not ;) 21:52:10 <frosch123> omg, classifying toyland cargos... 21:52:26 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-99-216.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:52:38 <andythenorth> I suspect there are UIC codes somewhere for toyland :P 21:52:38 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:52:53 <andythenorth> frosch123: it's easy: most are 'hazardous' 21:52:59 <andythenorth> batteries: hazardous 21:53:19 <andythenorth> to classify toys accurately, you need my proposed 'class changing' cb 21:53:25 <andythenorth> and you have to check age of player 21:53:34 <andythenorth> hazardouse for < 3 years 21:53:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: perhaps yes 21:54:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker: some chance we'll end up with no vehicle support if we put all three on :) 21:54:17 <andythenorth> due to exclusions 21:54:29 <planetmaker> true 21:54:43 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-053-063.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 21:54:46 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 21:54:47 <andythenorth> this is why the cb route might be better... 21:54:58 <andythenorth> although same could apply 21:55:55 <andythenorth> although any truck or train set should include open wagons 21:56:16 <andythenorth> and any vehicle author who doesn't allow piece goods and/or bulk into open wagons is doing something wrong 21:56:34 <andythenorth> and excluding neo-bulk from open wagons would be stupid too 21:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> someone could do "bulk, but not piece goods" for the open wagons, and "piece goods, but not bulk" for the closed wagon 21:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> then your proposed cargo couldn't go in either of them 21:57:04 <planetmaker> yes 21:57:08 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 21:57:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: then they should add neo-bulk :) 21:59:05 <andythenorth> why does the first cargo information table in the wiki include FIRS and ECS type B IDs? 21:59:19 <andythenorth> that encourages use of hard-coded IDs, not labels 21:59:34 <andythenorth> the ID chosen for each cargo in FIRS should be private information to FIRS 21:59:46 <andythenorth> are there features that need it? 22:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i once needed such information for the dbxl-cargo-addon, because the CTT of the addon-set was not respected back then 22:00:48 <frosch123> yes, dbset 0.8 extension sets 22:01:16 <andythenorth> but the wiki is not canonical for FIRS 22:01:24 <andythenorth> only the repo is canonical 22:01:39 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@a79-169-1-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Goodbye, world...] 22:01:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it should be canonical 22:02:16 <planetmaker> thus it should only include those info which can be guaranteed to remain fairly constant 22:02:58 <andythenorth> it's not currently accurate :P 22:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> changing cargo-slots is something not-savegame-safe-y 22:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but at the latest when "economies" are introduced, the information is probably useless 22:03:54 <andythenorth> contains ~3 errors at the moment 22:08:32 <Qantourisc> Dam .... i wanted to upgrade to monorail ... 22:08:55 <Qantourisc> but by the time all the trains have checked in ... i can upgrade to maglev :p 22:10:59 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:21 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23127 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4819] (r23086): Don't crash when refitting default vehicles. 22:16:46 <frosch123> https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Frosch/Default_cargos <- are the bigger flaws in there? 22:17:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: I would like the intention of oversized/overweight clarified by whoever created it 22:17:50 <andythenorth> it could be useful, but only if we know what it's meant to be 22:17:56 <frosch123> isn't that best done by giving examples? 22:18:06 <andythenorth> oversized / overweight are two different dimensions 22:18:14 <andythenorth> and 'requires specialist vehicles' is of no help 22:18:31 <andythenorth> my vehicle is a specialist car for carrying hot molten metal 22:18:36 <andythenorth> can it carry sheets of glass? 22:18:37 <frosch123> "specialist vehicles" are those which have no cargo classes, but only specific cargos :p 22:18:43 <andythenorth> ha 22:18:46 <andythenorth> nice definition 22:19:50 <andythenorth> fwiw, the cargo industry now treats livestock as neo-bulk 22:19:52 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:20:29 <andythenorth> gold should be express :P 22:20:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: in the forum post i might suggest the defintion. "oversized/overweight" = "requires wagons which can be loaded with a crane, i.e. open or open-able roof 22:21:09 <andythenorth> :) 22:21:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: the problem with livestock is that there are very different types of livestock 22:22:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/04/26/article-1173680-04AD2D68000005DC-3_634x478_popup.jpg 22:22:38 <andythenorth> coconuts :P 22:22:45 <andythenorth> that is the same three wheeled truck I have 22:24:10 <frosch123> "passengers" are not "clean" btw. :p 22:24:25 <andythenorth> nor are trains, so that's ok 22:24:29 <andythenorth> especially not buses 22:24:40 <andythenorth> mail might be? 22:25:03 <andythenorth> but in game, mail is kind of covered anyway 22:25:30 <planetmaker> I'd be surprised if covered wasn't used... 22:25:35 <andythenorth> oops 22:25:40 <andythenorth> word collision :) 22:25:47 <andythenorth> in game, mail has few problems 22:25:51 <andythenorth> I should have said 22:26:21 * andythenorth tries to figure out a case for oversized / overweight 22:26:43 <andythenorth> so the heavy item flat car in US set might refit to that class 22:26:46 <planetmaker> wind turbine parts :-) 22:27:22 <andythenorth> I worry what happens if it's excluded 22:27:23 <frosch123> let's check some pikka set 22:27:37 <andythenorth> box cars should exclude oversized / overweight 22:27:41 <andythenorth> for example 22:28:03 <andythenorth> the exclude thing is basically a small bomb waiting to go off sometimes 22:28:09 <andythenorth> setting fewer classes == better 22:29:39 <andythenorth> hmm 22:31:50 <frosch123> planetmaker: nars2 does not use them for a start :) 22:32:39 <planetmaker> hm, interesting 22:33:08 <andythenorth> frosch123: I would avoid setting the oversized class 22:33:15 <planetmaker> why? 22:33:50 <andythenorth> because the majority of vehicle types should exclude it 22:34:09 <planetmaker> flatbed typcially wouldn't. Would they? 22:34:25 <andythenorth> depends on what it means 22:34:34 <frosch123> egrvts seems to be too old, it uses only up to "hazardous" 22:34:41 <andythenorth> let me recycle my previous comment :P 22:34:54 <frosch123> (for exclusion mainly) 22:34:57 <andythenorth> depending on how some authors choose to interpret it, lots of vehicles *might* exclude it 22:35:09 <andythenorth> (oversized) 22:35:21 <frosch123> oh, though egrvts has a bug, it uses "clean" :p 22:35:25 <andythenorth> heh 22:35:32 <planetmaker> as what exactly? 22:36:12 <planetmaker> there's a posting which states that silently ECS uses bit10 already. "great" 22:36:33 <frosch123> the armoured carriage can transport "clean" 22:36:33 <planetmaker> as definition of powder 22:36:38 <planetmaker> oh he 22:36:45 <planetmaker> that's different then :-) 22:36:50 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6BDB7.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 22:37:05 <andythenorth> is it possible that oversized will end up merging with neo-bulk? 22:37:06 <frosch123> i guess it shall have been "hazardious" 22:37:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: yes :p 22:37:47 <andythenorth> do we know who added 'oversized' ? 22:37:52 <frosch123> mb 22:37:56 <planetmaker> take a guess 22:38:03 <andythenorth> I think I can think like MB 22:38:22 <frosch123> covered and oversized are by mb 22:38:23 <andythenorth> I think he means specifically what US ralroads call 'high and wide' 22:38:35 <frosch123> hazardous must be from some forum troll years ago 22:38:39 <andythenorth> or 'dimensional loads' 22:38:57 <andythenorth> basically things that might go out of the loading gauge, or over the route weight limit 22:39:07 <andythenorth> notably it will be train specific :P 22:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> if i say "i have previously staded my thoughts on oversized on the forum", do i "think like MB"? :p 22:39:26 <andythenorth> maybe you are MB 22:40:19 <andythenorth> specifically, putting overweight cargo into *normal* wagons would create an axle loading that was too high, and advanced players should know this and choose the appropriate wagon type 22:40:32 <andythenorth> I can't really mimic him, I am a poor mimic 22:40:43 <andythenorth> o/c 22:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, if "oversized" means "wind turbine parts, transformers, or CASTOR containers", then the class is useless, as no newgrf ever defines such things 22:40:55 <andythenorth> yes 22:40:57 <andythenorth> yet 22:41:10 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that's how I understood that class, though 22:41:17 <andythenorth> moi aussi 22:41:34 <andythenorth> I considered setting it for ENSP, but couldn't quite see the benefit 22:41:46 <andythenorth> it's too likely to lead to unhelpful exclusions 22:41:53 *** HerzogDeXtEr2 [~Flex@i59F6D59C.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 22:42:04 <andythenorth> it's highly specific 22:42:15 <planetmaker> and pointless class-cruft ;-) 22:42:29 <andythenorth> adding such a specific cargo is unlikely to help gameplay 22:42:38 <andythenorth> and if it was added, it would have poor vehicle support 22:42:46 <andythenorth> double bad 22:43:07 <frosch123> planetmaker: do you know some other modern vehicle set which might use those cargo classes? 22:43:23 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 22:43:27 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6C3B7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:43:32 <frosch123> (newer than egrvts) 22:43:46 <andythenorth> do they do any harm? 22:43:56 <planetmaker> I don't really know. You're still talking of covered, do you? 22:44:02 <frosch123> yes 22:44:12 <planetmaker> does ecs use it? 22:44:20 <andythenorth> I believe covered is set in FIRS 22:44:26 <andythenorth> by request of MB somewhere 22:44:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: does heqs or fish use "covered/sheltered" or "oversized"? 22:44:27 <planetmaker> (yes, it's no vehicle set) 22:44:33 <andythenorth> let me check 22:44:35 <frosch123> planetmaker: industry sets do not matter 22:44:37 <frosch123> only vehicle sets 22:44:56 *** TWerkhoven2 [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:45:07 <andythenorth> heqs does not use either. I was going to add it for some heavy transport trucks in HEQS, but there are no useful cargos for them 22:45:21 <andythenorth> I might as well just hard code ENSP 22:45:32 <andythenorth> (oversized) 22:45:43 <planetmaker> frosch123: I use them in ogfx+ 22:46:01 <planetmaker> hm... no, not sheltered 22:46:11 *** KouDy2 [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:46:13 <planetmaker> but oversized and hazardous. As 'not applicable' :-P 22:46:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: I think HEQS excludes covered, hazardous and oversized on most vehicles - by accident 22:46:43 <frosch123> fish uses them 22:46:46 <andythenorth> I'd have to double check the mask 22:47:04 <andythenorth> fish includes or excludes? 22:47:37 <frosch123> fish and heqs use 0x03FF to include all cargos 22:48:04 <frosch123> some heqs vehicles exclude 0x03EF 22:48:07 <andythenorth> yes 22:48:09 <planetmaker> 2ccTS exludes wxFFFB by default 22:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS uses sheltered 22:48:13 <frosch123> (everything but bulk) 22:48:28 <andythenorth> frosch123: it's accident not design that FISH / HEQS include oversized etc 22:48:37 <andythenorth> arguably they also support clean and neo-bulk already :P 22:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure whether that's in the right way, though 22:49:19 <planetmaker> well. CETS can still change, I think 22:49:21 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6BDB7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:49:25 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: where do you use it? 22:50:27 <andythenorth> much as I am convinced by classes in general, the exclusions are a headache 22:50:33 <andythenorth> if we set covered on grain... 22:50:40 <andythenorth> none of these 22:50:40 <andythenorth> http://www.victorianrailways.net/freight/freight%20pages/gy/gy.html 22:50:47 <andythenorth> can be used for grain 22:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the open wagon says "include bulk, but exclude sheltered" and then there's a special covered wagon for "sheltered" 22:50:53 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-76-159.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:51:51 <andythenorth> there are differences between 'cargo needs' and 'cargo can' and 'wagon provides' and 'wagon can't' 22:51:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the covered wagon is mostly for sensitive cargos like some (powderized) chemicals 22:52:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it's thus called "Kaliwagen" 22:52:19 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-195-125.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 22:52:36 <planetmaker> K&S ;-) 22:52:46 *** pjpe [ae5b514a@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 22:54:52 <andythenorth> he 22:55:04 <andythenorth> tarpaulins are covers 22:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.hs-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/fg/e2f_g127.gif 22:55:34 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: and the first google hit on "Kaliwagon" is... http://www.modeltrein-paradise.be/piko/goederenwagens/kalk--en-silowagens/54632---db-ag--kaliwagon--tanoos-nacco-sca--tp.php 22:55:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and in 1830 with UKRS 2? 22:56:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this is a wagon ca. 1909 22:56:22 <andythenorth> I know :) 22:56:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: opposed to the open wagon: http://www.hs-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/fg/e2f_g106.gif 22:56:45 <andythenorth> but if pikka does the correct thing and excludes covered from open wagons, then there is zero cargo support for grain 22:56:53 <andythenorth> in 1830 22:57:05 <andythenorth> it can't go in vans because they exclude bulk 22:57:16 <andythenorth> so we create a system where it's impossible to do the right thing 22:57:19 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D022.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:54 * planetmaker needs sleep now, though. Good night 22:57:57 <andythenorth> unless you tell me I'm wrong about what the correct thing to do is 22:58:32 <andythenorth> if an author doesn't provide alternatives, then they probably shouldn't exclude covered from open wagons 22:59:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could exclude it only from the later open wagons, not from the first versions 22:59:23 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-145-15.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:59:23 <andythenorth> yes 22:59:36 <andythenorth> or we could argue to make the covered / sheltered meaning more precise 22:59:42 <andythenorth> currently I read it as 'must have a roof' 22:59:48 <andythenorth> which is probably untrue 23:00:33 <michi_cc> Grain, maize and similar are of the type 'a roof would be nice', but unlike some chemicals they won't dissolve if they get so it's not a 'must absolutely have a roof' cargo. 23:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> do we need a specialized wagon for "Elefanten, Kamele und Giraffen"? 23:00:46 <michi_cc> s/get/get wet/ 23:00:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: absolutely 23:01:03 <andythenorth> there are B&B circus train sprites in US Set apparently as an easter egg 23:01:09 <andythenorth> they require a very specific refit :P 23:01:38 <andythenorth> there's no AND combination for classes? 23:01:45 <andythenorth> we have to rely on exclusions? 23:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> no, there's only "OR" and "AND NOT" 23:02:15 <andythenorth> the kaliwagen should be for cargos that are bulk AND covered 23:02:25 <andythenorth> the exclusion is unhelpful 23:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 23:02:31 <andythenorth> a cb could handle that better 23:02:36 <andythenorth> much better 23:02:47 <Eddi|zuHause> now where is that CB when you need it? :p 23:03:10 <andythenorth> also - the open wagon 'covered' problem is a straw man, just fit a tarpaulin 23:03:31 <andythenorth> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Cio14_gzyw8/SoXxXeFsO7I/AAAAAAAAAZM/g9GcmZuuJgY/s400/clay+wagons.jpg 23:03:55 <andythenorth> (without the tarpaulin, your straw man gets wet) :P 23:05:11 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:19 <andythenorth> I had to make WOOL covered/sheltered - due to this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1882 23:05:26 *** Ola [~Ola@178235241182.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:05:27 <andythenorth> not sure why it's helpful though 23:06:40 <frosch123> George: in case you didn't notice, there are at least 3 newer topics in the technical newgrf forum, which might interest you 23:08:14 <andythenorth> oh 23:08:25 <andythenorth> MB replied in the classes thread 23:08:32 <andythenorth> and I need to sleep, not argue with him :( 23:08:41 * andythenorth has a modest proposal 23:08:50 <andythenorth> as MB has a perfect system, he has to code all of our sets 23:10:17 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-020-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 23:11:46 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-24-148.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 23:18:47 * andythenorth -> bed 23:20:56 <Zuu> In a sleeper rail car? :-) 23:22:09 <andythenorth> what class is that? 23:22:23 * andythenorth leaves you with this: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper 23:22:25 <andythenorth> good night 23:22:27 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 23:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: is that a railcar for sleepers? 23:24:01 <Zuu> a rail car with beds for sleeping people. 23:24:18 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 23:24:40 *** Pixelator [~Pixelator@66-87-75-42.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #openttd 23:27:12 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 23:31:46 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:33:23 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:33:52 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:40:11 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe358.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:52 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 23:52:20 <Pixelator> !help 23:52:21 *** Pixelator was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]