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00:15:53 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.123.42.12] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:19 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-16-222.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30:00 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AA5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:05 *** kkimlabs__ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:41:55 *** Zahl [~Zahl@i59F79798.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 00:59:35 *** Runner11 [~daniel@c-24-20-56-126.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:13:50 *** roadt [~roadt@114.96.134.150] has joined #openttd 01:25:50 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d456:9b8:ec7c:146a] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:53:57 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 01:57:00 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-042-174.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 01:59:44 *** roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.132.218] has joined #openttd 02:01:50 *** roadt [~roadt@114.96.134.150] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:02:39 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-97-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 02:05:36 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:12:18 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-109-247.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:02 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-109-247.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 02:18:28 *** Zahl_ [~Zahl@88.130.208.161] has joined #openttd 02:26:00 *** Zahl [~Zahl@i59F79798.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:26:00 *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl 02:40:29 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 03:28:15 *** roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.132.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:32:14 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91-66-115-249-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...] 03:32:39 *** Zahl [~Zahl@88.130.208.161] has quit [Quit: OS shutdown) (*schiel*] 03:46:59 *** Svenska [~yaaic@rrcs-24-43-194-20.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 03:49:24 <Svenska> hi. i just had an idea while travelling some time ago: when the train broke down, it was connected to the following train and both went together until the broken train was taken out of service some stops later 03:51:04 <Svenska> can multiheaded trains get less (or less severe) breakdowns? i think the chance of complete breakdown completely is head1*head2... and if one head breaks down, the train is slower 03:52:16 <Svenska> so in gameplay there's at least a possibility to have breakdowns not tear down your whole network in worst case 03:55:12 <Svenska> what do you think? 04:09:07 *** Svenska [~yaaic@rrcs-24-43-194-20.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:14:08 *** Svenska [~yaaic@rrcs-24-43-194-20.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 04:32:50 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 04:35:27 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 04:44:15 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD477B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:44:30 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC674D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:48:13 *** kkimlabs__ [~kkimlabs@VPNRASA-WLAN-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 04:48:16 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:25:30 *** kkimlabs__ [~kkimlabs@VPNRASA-WLAN-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:27:39 *** roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.132.218] has joined #openttd 05:31:11 <Terkhen> good morning 05:40:18 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@VPNRASA-WLAN-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 05:55:53 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:39:24 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@VPNRASA-WLAN-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:39:32 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 06:48:02 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd 06:48:05 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 06:48:05 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 06:48:25 <Alberth> hi hi 06:53:05 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 06:53:46 *** pjpe [b8af1d68@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 06:59:34 *** Svenska [~yaaic@rrcs-24-43-194-20.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org] 07:04:07 *** peter1138 [~petern@217.64.121.242] has joined #openttd 07:04:10 *** mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ 07:13:14 <dihedral> good morning 07:18:53 <planetmaker> moin 07:21:00 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has joined #openttd 07:21:07 <Wolf01> hello o/ 07:40:32 <Supercheese> Heh, I've just started using TortoiseSVN for a personal, non-OTTD project I'm working on, and importing all the files to start is going to take forever, as I have about 500MB worth 07:41:01 <Supercheese> Not sure if it's my upload speed that's limiting things, or what 07:42:05 <Supercheese> The poor upload window keeps Not Responding, even though it still keeps uploading 07:43:07 <Wolf01> versioning systems give their best for the code, not for the assets 07:44:46 <Alberth> Supercheese: it copies the entire project history 07:44:55 <Alberth> moin Wolf01 07:45:04 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 07:45:49 <Alberth> Supercheese: oh, sorry, SVN. that just copies the current working copy 07:46:06 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:28 * Alberth thinks too much Mercurial 07:46:34 <Supercheese> I've never used any version control stuff before, but it seems straightforward enough 07:46:53 <Supercheese> especially since I'm the sole developer 07:46:54 <Alberth> SVN is sort of useless unless you have commit access 07:47:21 <Supercheese> I started a project at Google code, free hosting ftw 07:47:35 <Alberth> yeah, FreeRCT is there too :) 07:48:13 <Alberth> it's probably the network that is slow 07:49:17 <Supercheese> Hmm, issue tracker doesn't seem to have a category for "Feature being worked on" 07:49:22 <Supercheese> or "Feature request" 07:49:30 <planetmaker> Supercheese: if you've never used any vcs you might be better of starting with hg or git 07:49:31 <Supercheese> guess ya gotta make those custom? 07:49:39 <Alberth> you can add new fields 07:49:57 <Alberth> planetmaker: why? 07:50:10 <Supercheese> Already chose Subversion 07:50:59 <Alberth> basically, you're missing patch queues, which are nice to order your commits 07:52:00 <planetmaker> Alberth: I think they offer more potential and easier sharing (if you - maybe later - care to) 07:52:13 <Supercheese> Well, I'm not developing a program per se, but rather a series of configuration files to be loaded by another program 07:52:23 <planetmaker> and imho also easier to locally follow through an idea and throw it away 07:52:26 <Supercheese> Also I do not expect any other folk to work on this, just me 07:52:41 <dihedral> Supercheese, hg and git allow committing and branching and tagging without a connection to the server, and you can push changes later on 07:52:47 <dihedral> which is useful if you are on the go, e.g. 07:52:52 <Alberth> planetmaker: true, hg is more flexible in that aspect 07:52:55 <planetmaker> Supercheese: dvcs already is easier if you work on different machines 07:53:22 <dihedral> planetmaker, constant tar snapshots :-D 07:53:25 <Supercheese> Yeah, it's the Baskin Robbins syndrome, too many choices 07:53:37 <planetmaker> :-) 07:53:41 <dihedral> Supercheese, learn hg - you'll enjoy it 07:53:51 <Supercheese> hg - mercurial? 07:53:51 <dihedral> rather than learning svn and then needing to switch to hg later on :-D 07:53:56 <dihedral> Supercheese, aye 07:53:56 <Supercheese> =* 07:53:59 <planetmaker> yes. hg is mercurial 07:54:06 <Supercheese> Hmm 07:54:17 <dihedral> and if you know hg you know a lot about git also 07:54:28 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:54:56 <Alberth> dihedral: except how to work with it, as they changed the meaning of all commands :) 07:55:40 <planetmaker> quite :-) 07:55:43 <Supercheese> Well, guess I should switch to mercurial while I haven't yet started 07:55:47 <Alberth> Supercheese: You can import an SVN repository into hg (or git iirc), so switching can be done later 07:55:57 <Supercheese> Ah, well I won't cancel the upload 07:55:58 <planetmaker> Supercheese: there's also a tortoiseHG 07:56:09 <Supercheese> Yes, I saw, git too IINM 07:56:18 * Alberth nods 07:56:35 * Supercheese wonders if anyone other than himself uses that acronym 07:57:00 <Alberth> Supercheese: the advantage of SVN is that it is terribly simple, at the cost of flexibility 07:57:01 * planetmaker doesn't. What does it stand for? 07:57:07 <Supercheese> If I'm Not Mistaken 07:57:29 <Supercheese> fairly equivalent to IIRC 07:57:36 <Supercheese> but that's too cliche :P 07:59:20 <Supercheese> I've been developing this project for a few months, and I've discovered why folks invented revisioning way back when 08:00:00 <Supercheese> "Crap, what did I change from this version to that?" 08:00:22 <planetmaker> haha :-) Yeah 08:00:38 <Supercheese> among other questions 08:02:15 <planetmaker> the good thing is that commits basically come for free once you get the hang of it 08:02:28 <planetmaker> and you learn to appreciate plain text files in many contexts :-) 08:02:56 <Supercheese> Presumably I just work on stuff and each time I change things and everything compiles nicely I choose commit 08:03:24 <Alberth> as well as 'revert' :) It is simple to do an experiment, and if it doesn't work, just revert to the last good state. 08:03:43 <Supercheese> Fortunately, compiling this project takes at most 20 seconds 08:03:44 <planetmaker> :-) Yeah. Or update to the last working revision or so 08:04:33 <Supercheese> Heh, "Files 1 - 100 of 7353" 08:04:45 <Supercheese> That's a lot of "Next" button clicks 08:05:28 <planetmaker> uh... sounds like sucky gui 08:05:43 <planetmaker> I guess I only use the command line interface of vcs' 08:05:46 <Supercheese> Eh, it's what Google gives ya 08:05:54 <Supercheese> I don't plan on actually using that interface 08:05:54 <dihedral> Alberth, a commit is still a commit, and a push is still a push 08:05:59 <dihedral> same with pull, clone update 08:06:12 <planetmaker> 15:55 planetmaker: as such one can work with 5 commands alone: clone, push, pull, diff and commit. And maybe log as 6th 08:06:21 <planetmaker> ^^ that's all it needs imho to get started 08:06:25 <dihedral> :-P 08:06:32 <dihedral> i agree 08:06:46 <planetmaker> the rest is extra. Though sometimes very handy extra 08:06:55 <dihedral> aye 08:06:58 <planetmaker> hm. I forgot up 08:07:05 <planetmaker> "up" 08:07:07 <dihedral> but if you need extra, you are able to find out how 'extra' works 08:07:21 <dihedral> planetmaker, up is that not an alias to update? 08:07:24 <Alberth> Supercheese: that's one way of doing commits. You'll find that sometimes you want to do a commit, but you are not exactly sure whether it is the right solution, as 3 commits further is the crucial point that may or may not go wrong. This is where patch queues come in. 08:07:26 <planetmaker> and no-one in #mercurial contradicted :-P 08:07:30 <planetmaker> dihedral: yes 08:07:44 <dihedral> ah - you did not mention it 08:07:45 <Alberth> dihedral: false "git add" != "hg add" 08:08:05 <dihedral> Alberth, oh realy? 08:08:08 <planetmaker> and... maybe add indeed :-P 08:08:25 <Alberth> dihedral: yep, this is the whole staging stuff of git 08:08:29 <planetmaker> so. 7 commands. clone, push, pull, diff, commit, add, update and maybe log and merge 08:09:04 <Alberth> git commits the file as it was on the git add, while hg commits the file as it is during commit 08:09:39 <planetmaker> uh. I was not aware of that difference 08:09:56 <Alberth> that's where the magic commit -a comes from 08:10:16 <planetmaker> in hg? 08:10:17 * Supercheese is somewhat confused 08:10:22 <Alberth> planetmaker: in git 08:10:54 <planetmaker> Supercheese: don't let yourself be confused... details :-) 08:10:55 <dihedral> Alberth, ok - but both add a file 08:10:58 <Alberth> Supercheese: no worries it's like a religion, my system is better than yours :) 08:11:02 <planetmaker> unimportant details for a starter 08:11:14 <dihedral> so the difference is important if you change a file after adding it 08:11:19 <dihedral> and before committing it 08:11:28 <Alberth> dihedral: you claimed they were equal :) 08:11:34 * planetmaker does that. Quite often actually 08:12:06 <dihedral> Alberth, the use of the commands hg and git are for a certain respect equal 08:12:20 <dihedral> the implementation of the commands are most likely not 08:12:52 <planetmaker> the only real issue is that hg add != git add and similar in other equal looking commands 08:12:53 <dihedral> hg add is still git add (even if a little but important difference in the file handling is there) 08:12:54 <Alberth> hg and git are mostly equal in functionality too 08:13:14 <dihedral> and the storage engine is different 08:13:24 <dihedral> but that does not mean that if i can use hg i could not use git 08:13:28 <Alberth> dihedral: but details is what makes the difference imho 08:13:30 <planetmaker> but the functionality of the programmes is approx. the same. They just call things differently 08:13:42 <dihedral> as the commands i need to achive the same are still the same commands 08:13:47 <planetmaker> like both German and English are a language. Some words are similar, others not 08:13:56 <Supercheese> "boot", for example 08:13:58 <planetmaker> or maybe rather German and Dutch. Fits better 08:13:59 <Supercheese> l) 08:14:02 <Supercheese> ;) * 08:14:19 <dihedral> Alberth, imo that is nitpicking 08:14:29 <dihedral> to a beginner it is a minor difference 08:14:54 <planetmaker> dihedral: and you notice that Alberth nitpicks on purpose and you fall so well for the tease ;-) 08:14:57 <dihedral> the basic meaning of the commands are the same 08:15:06 <Alberth> oh, you were talking about beginners. In that case, you are right 08:15:15 <dihedral> grrr :-P 08:15:18 * Supercheese is definitely a beginner 08:15:20 * dihedral gives Albert a hug 08:15:40 <dihedral> meany 08:16:05 <dihedral> planetmaker, i only just got up ... an hour ago 08:16:25 <Supercheese> Man, a server-side issue tracker is a thousand thousand times better than trying to remember stuff myself. "What was I planning to work on, again?" 08:17:00 <planetmaker> Supercheese: that's one of the reasons we setup the devzone ;-) 08:17:04 <planetmaker> hard to remember all the stuff 08:17:09 <Alberth> Supercheese: very true. Even better would be to have one in the repo itself, but I have not found one so far 08:17:11 <Supercheese> no kidding 08:17:20 <planetmaker> and easier to recall what people said when stored in a somewhat central place 08:17:28 <Supercheese> Well, Google has 'em side by side 08:17:37 <Supercheese> at least for my purposes anyhow 08:17:47 <planetmaker> Alberth: what do you mean with "in the repo"? Like them being commits? 08:18:02 <Alberth> a distributed tracker 08:18:03 <planetmaker> in a special "issue_tracker" branch? 08:18:33 <planetmaker> I thought that to be handy, too. As currently it's quite separate things... and tracker history is thus easier lost :-( 08:19:08 <Alberth> there are some attempts, eg bugseverywhere 08:19:27 <Alberth> but they don't seem to work for hg :p 08:20:04 <Alberth> (I tried it, it didn't work in a blatantly obvious way, reported it, and they solved it by withdrawing hg support :P ) 08:21:08 <Alberth> it also gives new problems, like having a separate program for it, that should figure out which project to use 08:21:44 <planetmaker> hm, let's ask #mercurial whether they know a solution :-) 08:27:07 <planetmaker> btw, dihedral: a short command comparison http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/GitConcepts#Command_equivalence_table 08:33:16 <Alberth> joy, pull and fetch have reversed meaning 08:33:26 <planetmaker> yeah :-) 08:33:48 <planetmaker> in order to avoid this complication I actually use hggit when I have to deal with git repos 08:34:24 <Alberth> I recently found 'eg', I have not tried it yet though 08:34:57 <planetmaker> what's that? (link) 08:36:19 <Alberth> "Git for mere mortals" http://www.gnome.org/~newren/eg/ 08:37:33 <planetmaker> ah, thanks. /me reads 08:41:48 <Wolf01> gah, I hate mixing date formats, especially php's strftime with classic date formats 08:42:02 <planetmaker> interesting read, Alberth 08:42:33 <Alberth> I installed it, but probably by the time I need to use git, I have forgotten all about it :p 08:42:48 <planetmaker> hehe. I fear that to be the case here, too 08:43:41 <Wolf01> Thu 12-08-2012 21:09 instead of Thu 12-07-2012 21:08 %M is minutes not month, and %I is 12-hour format not minutes :P 08:44:55 <Alberth> be glad it doesn't change each time you start the program :p 08:45:56 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 08:46:19 <dihedral> Wolf01, %m is month 08:46:31 <Wolf01> yes, I noticed that 08:46:33 <dihedral> :-P 08:47:30 <Wolf01> but for example, compare: http://php.net/manual/en/function.date.php with: http://php.net/manual/en/function.strftime.php 08:48:42 <Wolf01> I'm used to the date() formats, but sometimes I need strftime() formats and I make a lot of confusion 08:48:54 <Rubidium> wasn't there a massive rant about PHP somewhere? 08:49:04 <Rubidium> IMHO PHP is like a patchpack 08:49:09 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.123.42.12] has joined #openttd 08:49:31 <Rubidium> everyone can add their bit without considering things important to some (like consistency and security) 08:51:03 <Wolf01> yeah, I think that too, but since ther were talking about bug trackers, it come to my mind to change the date format of flyspray, it was something like d D M Y H:i instead of the other format (strftime) 08:51:34 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91-66-115-249-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 08:53:01 <Wolf01> and in PHP there's an error due to misuse of :: which is written in Israelian 09:00:48 <Alberth> there are far bigger things wrong in php imho 09:03:46 <Wolf01> working as a web developer I found it does have a lot^2 of inconsistencies 09:05:06 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 09:06:04 *** MINM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:06:33 <Alberth> do they have strings as native data type yet? (instead of the collection of C string functions) 09:07:37 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 09:08:33 <Wolf01> no, still strings as array of chars 09:10:10 <Alberth> joy, so useful in a language intended to manipulate and generate pieces of text :p 09:11:34 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 09:11:41 <cmircea> Wolf01, http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ 09:11:47 <cmircea> Have fun. 09:12:05 *** Progman [~progman@p57A198E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:12:18 <Wolf01> You pull out the hammer, but to your dismay, it has the claw part on both sides. hahaha 09:12:29 <Wolf01> yeah, php it's really so 09:12:31 <cmircea> Someone actually made a hammer. 09:12:36 <cmircea> Like that. 09:13:03 <cmircea> That is the best rant ever about a programming language. And it is all true. 09:14:02 <Supercheese> Well, good night all 09:14:28 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]] 09:15:33 <planetmaker> you mean... the php hammer? http://www.flickr.com/photos/raindrift/7095238893/in/set-72157629492908038/ 09:21:47 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 09:24:33 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 09:33:05 <NGC3982> he 09:33:12 <NGC3982> ..hehe. 09:40:06 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 09:42:35 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:47:23 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91-66-115-249-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: A key, command, or action that tells the system to return to a previous state or stop a process.] 10:05:55 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has joined #openttd 10:07:17 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0f0d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:08:37 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6A790.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 10:15:00 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D9BA.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:16:06 * andythenorth tries a game with new Canadian Set 10:20:26 <andythenorth> bah 10:20:29 <andythenorth> FIRS is broken 10:20:37 <andythenorth> what good is a Canadian map with just 1 forest 10:20:40 <andythenorth> stupid grf 10:21:36 <Hirundo> should FIRS increase forest probability, if it detects presence of canadian grfs? 10:21:44 <andythenorth> :D 10:21:46 <andythenorth> probably not 10:22:01 <andythenorth> I suspect the issue here is that I always forget how probability works 10:22:26 <andythenorth> if I add some new industry types to the grf, I need to go and adjust probability for *every* other type 10:22:33 <andythenorth> took me too long to work that out :P 10:22:35 <Hirundo> why? 10:22:44 <andythenorth> probabilities are relative 10:22:46 <andythenorth> brb 10:23:23 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f41b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:24:44 <andythenorth> with FIRS 0.6.4 I get more forests per new game (very unscientific test) 10:24:53 <andythenorth> compared to 0.7.5, which has more industry types 10:24:54 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:25:11 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 10:25:27 <frosch123> obviously 10:25:30 <Hirundo> of course 10:25:32 <frosch123> the number of industries is fixed 10:25:44 <frosch123> so more types result in less per type 10:25:46 <andythenorth> obvious to people who are mathematically literate :P 10:25:50 <andythenorth> I always forget 10:26:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz 10:26:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> question about dedi multiplayer 10:26:13 <frosch123> main reason why firs in unplayable for me :p 10:26:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> how do i load a savegame from the console? 10:26:17 <frosch123> i like small maps 10:26:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: ditto me 10:26:30 <andythenorth> I keep starting games and quitting because the chains are all wrong 10:26:32 <frosch123> ZxBiohazardZx: load "filename" ? 10:26:40 <frosch123> or try "help load" 10:26:43 <andythenorth> frosch123: which industry types are out of balance for you? 10:26:45 <Hirundo> we need firs economies!~ 10:26:47 <andythenorth> I'd better try and fix it 10:26:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: no idea 10:27:01 <andythenorth> oh :P 10:27:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> load crash.sav --> no such file or directory 10:27:04 <frosch123> i think i never played firs for more than 5 minutes 10:27:12 <andythenorth> me neither recently 10:27:16 <andythenorth> I kind of hate it 10:27:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> prolly diff savedir 10:27:32 <andythenorth> FIRS looks nice, but is all wrong 10:27:43 * andythenorth considers rm -r firs* 10:27:56 <frosch123> ZxBiohazardZx: there are also ls and cd commands iirc 10:28:01 * Hirundo has a backup 10:28:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz i moved the file using windows, that works :P 10:28:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> im playing an ECS game 10:28:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: just implement different economies :) 10:28:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> its a pain combined with cargodest :( 10:28:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> same goes for FIRS imo 10:28:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> its a great industryset 10:28:41 <Hirundo> andythenorth: I think there should be some parameters to remove / combine some industries ("economies", if you will) 10:28:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> but it becomes a pain when cargodest is added 10:29:05 <Hirundo> e.g. in a non-farming economy, there should be only 1 or 2 farm types, probably the mixed farm only 10:29:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> the cargobalancing act is a pain when you have 1 jam or something similar, it completely resets all the progress you made:P 10:29:35 <andythenorth> cargobalancing is a wrong thing anyway :) 10:29:51 <frosch123> Hirundo: i don't think combining industry types by removing the farm types helps 10:30:06 <frosch123> i think you rather have to cut down cargo types, and then see which industries remain 10:30:16 <andythenorth> the main blocker is implementation initially 10:30:24 <andythenorth> the game balance can be sorted out by testing 10:30:35 <andythenorth> but I have no sane way to right the code 10:30:53 <andythenorth> write /s 10:31:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: independent of how to code... is there a concept of what econcomies should be available and what industries/cargo they should supply? 10:31:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> andythenorth try cargodest with first/ecs 10:31:27 <andythenorth> several yes 10:31:37 <andythenorth> cargodest doesn't appeal at all 10:31:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> well pax/cargodest is fun imo 10:31:51 <andythenorth> I find it a very weird concept 10:31:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> its just a pain when combined with ECS/Firs 10:32:06 <andythenorth> I haven't tried it though, so I should give it a chance 10:32:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> on the "default" industries it actually adds some sort of challenge 10:32:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> and on the ECS game i run now it gives interesting results 10:33:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> and when you get the hang of it its actually a great addition 10:33:02 * andythenorth considers playing old FIRS, where the industry balance is correct 10:33:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> the balancing is a pain though :P 10:33:17 <ZxBiohazardZx> ill try out a FIRS game later i think 10:33:22 <andythenorth> FIRS is all wrong :P 10:33:25 <ZxBiohazardZx> last FIRS is a while ago 10:33:40 <FLHerne> It needs mroe industry types and cargos, that's all :P 10:33:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> hehe 10:33:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> more more more 10:33:51 <FLHerne> s/ro/or/ 10:33:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> i sometimes hate the complexity too much 10:34:01 * andythenorth hopes pikka shows up with TAI soon 10:34:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> :P 10:34:48 <Hirundo> frosch123: What's the status of http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Secondary_Related_Objects ? 10:35:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Have you considered production caps on the first-generation industries? 10:35:06 <frosch123> nothing done 10:35:19 <Hirundo> Are you planning to get it done? 10:35:27 <andythenorth> FLHerne: which / how much? 10:35:33 <FLHerne> The amount of wheat that one windmill can grind a month is silly :P 10:35:39 <andythenorth> I know 10:35:40 <frosch123> i see no reasons to not do it; but currently i am doing other things 10:35:56 <andythenorth> FLHerne: so how much wheat can one windmill grind per month? 10:36:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> actually depends on windmill size 10:36:13 <FLHerne> Unsure...perhaps I should look it up 10:36:13 <andythenorth> 1 tile 10:36:27 <andythenorth> but you also have to make it a parameter 10:36:50 <andythenorth> and you have to decide what to do with the excess cargo delivered 10:36:58 <Hirundo> I don't mean to bug you about it, just being curious 10:37:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> 1 "normal" windmill 10:38:03 <frosch123> no problem :) i just did not know how to interpret "planned" :) 10:38:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> ugh stupid new elec windmills 10:38:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> most results ofc link back to that 10:38:43 <Rubidium> actually, FIRS should become bilingual when in the presence of Canadian GRFs ;) 10:38:52 <andythenorth> good point 10:39:12 <FLHerne> About 250 coomb sacks/week, apparently 10:39:20 <FLHerne> Depending on weather :P 10:39:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> FLHerne how much is a sack in your weights? 10:39:57 <FLHerne> Haven't a clue :P 10:40:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> 500.000 to 530.000 kg a year is average for a 25 meter 2x mill in netherlands 10:41:11 <andythenorth> the actual amount is not important 10:41:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> production capacity is depending on the "gevlucht" the area, improvement on the wings and the ammount of grinders 10:41:22 <andythenorth> you'll need to somehow match it to the number of farms on the map 10:41:41 <andythenorth> so you'll need to measure grain production, then build an appropriate number of windmills 10:41:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> i can find info on how many farms supply 1 mill 10:41:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> 1 sec 10:41:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> can you link industries to "nearby" industries 10:42:07 <andythenorth> no 10:42:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz 10:42:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> k 10:42:22 <andythenorth> this needs an openttd patch to build all primary industries first 10:42:33 <andythenorth> then build secondaries to match processing capacity to output 10:42:38 <andythenorth> maybe GS can do it 10:42:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> :P 10:43:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> if you change the game-generation algorithm you could to 10:43:07 <andythenorth> and as before - it will need a parameter to enable / disable 10:43:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> oh well 10:43:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> im trying to find info on how many farms supply to 1 windmill 10:43:35 <FLHerne> 132 tons/month is what I got for a large tower mill 10:44:02 <FLHerne> [spurious precision] 10:44:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> dutch mills produce 500-530 tons a year, for a normal sized mill 10:44:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> but as andy mentioned 10:44:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> you have to compare it to farm productions 10:44:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> farms from X to Y means mills from 5Y to 10Y (or something similar) 10:44:51 <FLHerne> Anyone have info on Smithy Forges? Those have the same issue :P 10:45:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> as in steelforges or actual small blacksmiths? 10:45:09 <andythenorth> how will you implement the limit? 10:45:14 <andythenorth> acceptance? or output? 10:45:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> andy can you not give min-max params for production? 10:45:34 <FLHerne> The blacksmiths in FIRS 10:45:38 <andythenorth> ZxBiohazardZx: yes 10:45:59 <andythenorth> so what happens when you reach the production cap? 10:46:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> then you can give farms a min X and max Y and give windmills a min 0 max 5Y or so 10:46:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> after that stop accepting 10:46:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> similar to ECS 10:46:17 <andythenorth> so reject cargo? 10:46:25 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah reject untill below 10:46:39 <FLHerne> That would be annoying 10:46:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> you using stockpiles on FIRS or not? 10:46:41 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:46:45 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-97-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 10:46:49 <andythenorth> yes we're using stockpiles 10:46:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> ECS has similar approach 10:46:58 <andythenorth> stockpiles are stupid, but we have no choice 10:47:09 <FLHerne> Have production/unit delivered decrease as delivery rate rises :D 10:47:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> if supplied >>>>>> used --> stop accepting 10:47:20 <FLHerne> That would avoid vast pileups 10:47:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> imo its a valid mechanism 10:47:24 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-5d822051.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:47:45 * andythenorth considers starting a new industry set 10:47:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> and that solves your industry balancing as well 10:48:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> as then you can predetermine reasonable values per type based on suppliers 10:48:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> to use windmill example 10:48:29 <andythenorth> hmm 10:48:35 <andythenorth> count the number of suppliers within n tiles 10:48:39 <andythenorth> and limit accordingly 10:48:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> farms produce between X and Y, windmill from 0 to 3Y, stockpile to 5Y? 10:48:48 <andythenorth> 200t per farm within 16 tiles 10:49:09 <andythenorth> hmm 10:49:18 <andythenorth> would need to fix the farm production to a constant value 10:49:21 <andythenorth> but that's ok 10:49:27 <andythenorth> variable production is boring anyway 10:49:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> you can even have variable production on the farms 10:50:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> but use the 200/farm as average 10:50:19 <andythenorth> but that means you might have too much cargo going to the windmill 10:50:29 <andythenorth> hmm 10:50:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> again if you overshot it, stop accepting 10:51:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> average the farms on 200t and you should be fine 10:51:02 <andythenorth> but then how does the player transport that cargo? 10:51:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> make them 100-300 10:51:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> not :P 10:51:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> its like on ECS 10:51:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> it will auto-reaccept in time 10:51:21 <andythenorth> but then the transported rating can't be achieved 10:51:24 <andythenorth> it breaks the game 10:51:33 <ZxBiohazardZx> transfer options 10:51:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> i use them for ECS too 10:51:44 * andythenorth ponders transferring it all into a big black hole station 10:51:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> i cant get the system running without transferring 10:51:52 <andythenorth> but then vehicles would be losing money 10:51:54 <andythenorth> which breaks the game 10:52:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> nah tram it from dropoff to station 10:52:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> and you have income 10:52:11 <andythenorth> ? 10:52:18 <andythenorth> if it's not delivered, no income 10:52:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> lets say you have a dropoff station B 10:52:33 <ZxBiohazardZx> you transfer & leave empty @B so trains will continue 10:52:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> and from B you have a tram to C (the industry) 10:52:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> as soon as C accepts cargo, the tram will bring form B to C (short dist) and make the revenue 10:53:04 <andythenorth> so the issue is 10:53:06 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0f0d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:53:12 <andythenorth> 5 farms @ 300t = 1500t output per month 10:53:18 <andythenorth> but we're only accepting 1000t 10:53:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> when stockpile limit/acceptance is reached the station stops accepting and the cheap tram runs empty 10:53:24 <andythenorth> so we'll always have 500t untransported 10:53:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> if that is the case then the player should redirect that 500t to another accepting industry 10:53:57 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53:58 <andythenorth> but the other industries will be capped too 10:54:03 <andythenorth> based on their neighbouring industry 10:54:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> and that is if you keep windmill static on 200t*producers in range 10:54:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> what if i decide to not bring my goods to nearby industry 10:54:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> but to a far away one 10:54:30 <andythenorth> same issue, somewhere else 10:54:38 <andythenorth> make the cap max*producers 10:54:41 <andythenorth> solves it 10:54:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> or what if i have a windmill without nearby farms 10:54:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> :P 10:54:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i transport to it from far away:P 10:55:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> you will always keep issues like that for you cant direct link the productions 10:55:16 <andythenorth> funding a new secondary would mean recalculating all the caps 10:55:22 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What are the light-concrete tiles in CHIPS source for? They don't seem to appear in-game 10:55:29 * andythenorth looks 10:55:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka windmill = ALWAYS nearby farms*x 10:55:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> so if farm increases, so does windmill 10:55:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> or maybe allow upgrading it? 10:55:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> similar to funding/bringing a town 10:56:19 <andythenorth> FLHerne: the ones that are stone coloured? They were quarry tiles, deprecated 10:56:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> upgrade it for bigger capacity then default (incremental steps, exponentially more expensive ) 10:56:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> that possible or? 10:56:42 <andythenorth> possible with a patch 10:57:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> so not on trunk/via newgrf? 10:57:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, the ones that look like light-grey concrete, with vehicle tracks (?) on 10:58:00 <FLHerne> They don't match any of the platforms, or OGFX baseset concrete, or the ones that you claim match TTD concrete 10:58:10 <FLHerne> |They look nice though :-) 10:58:25 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 10:58:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> but an upgrade system wouldnt be too bad for the issue above 10:58:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> if your industry wont accept enough, you can increase capacity via investments :P 10:58:59 <andythenorth> FLHerne: they're an abandoned attempt to provide a concrete ground tile 10:59:07 <andythenorth> I prefer the one in the TTD base set though 10:59:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> to bad you cant get that done via newgrf only :P 10:59:22 * andythenorth thinks the game should be about building industry 10:59:26 <andythenorth> the transporting should be automatic 11:00:17 <ZxBiohazardZx> lol 11:00:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe that is one thing though 11:00:34 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why abandoned? They easily look the best with huts on them :P 11:00:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> industries should check nearby stations for waiting cargo to use? 11:00:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka if i drop it off on the station and its not accepting, it can grab from station when it is :P 11:01:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> but yeah stockpile issue 11:01:12 <andythenorth> FLHerne: feel free to use them 11:02:11 <andythenorth> Alberth: how is your RCT project going? 11:02:26 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-103-012.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 11:02:38 * andythenorth needs a new game. I'm kind of done with TTD, just can't get interested in it 11:03:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I already am :P 11:03:03 <Alberth> it needs a bit more code 11:03:18 <andythenorth> can I make people sick yet? 11:03:21 <FLHerne> andythenorth: FOSS only? 11:03:28 <andythenorth> don't care 11:03:33 <andythenorth> has to be interruptable 11:03:47 <andythenorth> can't be anything that is absorbing, or can't be put on hold 11:03:53 <andythenorth> so no RT online play 11:03:56 <andythenorth> nothing action based 11:04:09 <andythenorth> nothing which requires concentration 11:04:12 <Alberth> no, but they do have colours http://freerct.blogspot.nl/ 11:04:31 <andythenorth> :) 11:04:44 <andythenorth> can we do all the graphics by printing unicode chars to the screen? 11:05:09 <Alberth> probably 11:05:26 <Alberth> but doom-ascii already exists 11:05:57 <andythenorth> it does :o 11:06:04 * andythenorth wants to play Doom again 11:07:20 <Alberth> maybe play widelands? 11:07:57 <andythenorth> http://doom.chaosforge.org/ 11:08:00 <andythenorth> looks fun 11:19:14 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-61-85.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:23:57 <andythenorth> I could split FIRS into 1-grf-per-industry? 11:25:16 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-36-37.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:25:46 <andythenorth> that solves economies 11:26:07 <planetmaker> it doesn't quite solve it. As not every combination makes sense, does it? 11:26:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> ill have the windmill the fishingboats and a steelmill 11:26:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> go :P 11:26:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> go go pointless industries go :P 11:27:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not until they raise the limit on number of loaded NewGrfs, you can't :P 11:29:03 <Rubidium> just go with the stuff economy 11:29:28 <Rubidium> extracting/growing stuff, making stuff into other stuff, moving stuff from houses to other houses and so forth 11:29:55 <Rubidium> then you need two, maybe three industries and one cargo 11:31:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> haha 11:31:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> stupid stuff is stupid 11:31:17 <ZxBiohazardZx> might be fun for toyland 11:31:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> baseblocks 11:31:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> semi-lego-like 11:31:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> baseblocks can be pax, can be cargo can be anything 11:31:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> :P 11:32:27 <MNIM> how about an age of empires economy? 11:32:33 <MNIM> food, wood, stone and gold. 11:33:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> nah 11:33:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> go go cossacks 11:33:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> add iron and coal 11:33:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> iron coal gold wood stone 11:33:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> then again you usually go for steel as it is logical after iron+coal 11:33:56 <MNIM> farms need wood and make food, houses need food and make gold. towns need stone and wood to grow, and banks/markets need and make gold. 11:33:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> and that gives you steel -> something 11:34:04 <MNIM> that's the whole economy. 11:34:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> :P 11:37:05 <MNIM> you could call it something like 'Simple Industries Mines Peoples and Life Economy. 11:43:42 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 11:45:21 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:52:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24398 /trunk/src/lang/brazilian_portuguese.txt: -Fix: Most recent changes to Brazilian were syntactically wrong. 11:53:33 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 12:00:07 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24399 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt: -Fix: Korean. 12:05:19 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@VPNRASA-WLAN-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 12:09:55 <planetmaker> Alberth: I looked around a bit and found http://www.mrzv.org/software/artemis/ and http://www.digitalgemstones.com/projects/b/ and http://code.google.com/p/mercurial-bugtracker-extension/ 12:13:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has joined #openttd 12:16:56 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 12:20:31 <Alberth> planetmaker: none of them seems to be able to find bugs based on some text, unless you count 'grep', but then you are mssing a nice bug-list 12:20:45 <planetmaker> hm, I see 12:21:28 <planetmaker> Alberth: but you likely can use like "hg log -k 'text'" or doesn't that work? 12:22:14 <Alberth> I think you want "give me all bugs about X" 12:22:30 <planetmaker> hg log -k 'X' then? 12:22:40 <Alberth> as a list of bugs, not as a list of files or revisions, imho 12:23:10 <planetmaker> maybe, yes 12:23:43 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps hg list bugs | grep X 12:23:55 <Alberth> euhm, no 12:24:04 <Alberth> that only matches titles :) 12:24:11 <planetmaker> hg log -I path/to/bugs -k 'X' 12:24:39 <Alberth> why are you interested in revisions? 12:24:46 <planetmaker> revision? 12:25:15 <planetmaker> you mean as I use log which gives the revs? Well 12:25:19 * andythenorth finds some sprites DanMacK did for FISH 12:25:23 <planetmaker> I'm not :-) 12:25:42 <planetmaker> But it gives a list of those bug-related revisions which touch 'X' 12:25:47 <planetmaker> Might give double hits, though 12:25:55 <Alberth> and closed issues :) 12:26:25 <planetmaker> indeed. That'd be painful sometimes 12:27:16 <planetmaker> # hg ilist 12:27:16 <planetmaker> # hg ilist -a 12:27:16 <planetmaker> 907ab57e04502afd ( 3) [resolved=fixed]: New issue 12:27:47 <planetmaker> artemis seems to provide a command for that, though ^ 12:28:36 <Alberth> currently open issues work until you have 20+ or so :) 12:29:08 <Alberth> which may be sufficient for a small project though 12:30:18 <planetmaker> Most NewGRF projects I know have more ;-) 12:30:41 <planetmaker> but what makes it stop working beyond 20 open issues? 12:31:09 <andythenorth> what are you trying to do? 12:32:25 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-103-012.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 12:32:46 <Alberth> planetmaker: remembering what each issue is about gets more difficult with 20+ issues, or over longer periods of time 12:33:10 <Alberth> that's why you have a search 12:33:57 <Alberth> without it, you have to remember the details of each issue while reading the "all open issues" list 12:34:15 <Alberth> or am I missing something? 12:36:34 <andythenorth> are you reading locally, or via redmine or such? 12:36:57 * andythenorth has to read tickets every day for work and (re)prioritise them 12:37:07 <andythenorth> remembering the issue from the title is not ea 12:37:09 <andythenorth> easy 12:37:48 <Alberth> I mentioned that a distributed issue tracker would be useful this morning, and pm found a few :) 12:37:58 <andythenorth> interesting idea 12:38:06 <andythenorth> we use trac still at work 12:38:17 <andythenorth> it smells, but the opinion seems to be that they all smell, so why change :P 12:38:56 <Alberth> trac allows nice referencing to revisions, changesets and issues everywhere 12:41:35 <andythenorth> only if you've set it up correctly 12:41:44 <andythenorth> and not if you've used cluemapper 12:41:54 <andythenorth> :P 12:42:17 * andythenorth stops complaining and does some actual newgrf stuff 12:42:33 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@VPNRASA-WLAN-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:44:36 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the idea behind adding issues to repo is intriguing IMHO: currently all issues are "gone" when the DevZone is not reachable (or e.g. when you're offline). With them in the repo... they're everywhere where the repo is 12:45:17 <andythenorth> yup 12:45:42 <andythenorth> we tried designing a server / app / asset management system last year for people doing sysops 12:45:58 <andythenorth> which would tell you the log of changes made to configuration etc 12:46:08 <andythenorth> so at 2am you know what recently changed 12:46:23 <andythenorth> we ended up concluding that distributed VCS was easier than a custom app :P 12:46:45 <Alberth> I'd hope so :) 12:49:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the coop servers use hg to track changes in /etc :-) 12:50:13 <andythenorth> do they log stuff like 'supervisor restarted me 17 times in 1 minute' ? 12:50:20 <andythenorth> which is more of a logging type task 12:50:31 <andythenorth> we were trying to blend automated logging and manual engineering logs 12:50:33 <andythenorth> it failed :P 12:50:38 <planetmaker> that sounds like a thing logged in /var/log/messages 12:51:01 <planetmaker> thus it just needs proper grep-ing 12:52:06 <andythenorth> it was a bit more magical than that, but that's why it failed :) 12:52:28 <andythenorth> ho 12:52:31 <andythenorth> I should update nml 12:55:58 <andythenorth> hmm 12:56:26 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1537/ 12:56:32 * andythenorth provides nml QA again :) 12:56:55 <planetmaker> too old python version? 12:57:10 <andythenorth> maybe 12:57:15 <andythenorth> 2.6.1 12:57:19 <andythenorth> worked last week 12:57:26 <planetmaker> hm, that should not be too old 12:57:29 <andythenorth> works for FIRS 12:57:56 <planetmaker> I guess... Open an NML issue :-) 12:58:20 <andythenorth> wondering if I can patch a fix 12:59:36 <andythenorth> works if I remove one vehicle 13:01:46 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 13:03:59 <FLHerne> andythenorth: More NewObjects :-) 13:05:30 <Alberth> andythenorth: I expect a bug in NML r1913 13:05:44 <andythenorth> it's interesting that only one vehicle causes it 13:06:06 <Alberth> the code is executed when you make an error somewhere 13:06:24 <Alberth> are you running NML tip? 13:06:48 <Alberth> ie do you use r1913? 13:08:38 <andythenorth> yup 13:08:47 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:15 <Alberth> Hirundo: ^^ trouble 13:09:24 <andythenorth> 1912 works 13:09:31 <andythenorth> i.e. provides the correct error 13:09:35 <andythenorth> missing png in this case 13:10:06 <andythenorth> there you go, free testing by andythenorth :D 13:10:10 <andythenorth> I find most cases :P 13:11:07 <Alberth> including non-implemented areas :) 13:12:26 * andythenorth ships new ship 13:17:54 <FLHerne> What's the new ship you shipped? 13:22:57 <andythenorth> large coaster, 1934 13:23:08 <andythenorth> it's in the nml conversion of FISH, which is quite broken right now 13:25:42 <FLHerne> So you have things that don't start in 1870 now? 13:26:10 <andythenorth> more of those yes 13:26:17 <andythenorth> not a full set though 13:26:26 <andythenorth> ships are insanely hard to draw 13:26:36 <andythenorth> and my artist got driven away :( 13:26:45 <andythenorth> driven away / bored ;) 13:30:44 <FLHerne> Any earlier pax ships yet? 13:37:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth: still no new DanMacK interest? :-( 13:41:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> i was wondering 13:41:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> if i have an empty map (semi-heightmap, just added canals) 13:41:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> why does editting newgrfs still possibly cause issues? 13:41:54 <andythenorth> you have zero grfs currently? 13:42:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka can we not define "blocks" that are not affected by newgrf changes that can be loaded as base? 13:42:22 <andythenorth> no grfs = no issues, if that's what you mean 13:42:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> nah this game has multiple and will crash due to them being altered (most likely, its a chrill patchpack game so im not 100% sure) 13:42:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> well lets say i have an empty heightmap 13:42:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> and add canals 13:42:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> then i want to save it without grfs 13:43:07 <planetmaker> not feasible really 13:43:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> if i later on open it, add newgrfs and then start trees, towns & industries, it will still mark it as "changed" right? 13:43:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> well my point is that the newgrf-define is on a weird location 13:43:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> id put it as menu/required select on every newgame start 13:43:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> rather then a weird perma setting in the main menu 13:43:51 <andythenorth> yes, the game GUI is a mess :) 13:43:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> if you forgot something your screwed and have to redo it all 13:43:59 <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: you're asking for a new scenario format basically 13:44:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah i guess so 13:44:09 <planetmaker> or a re-definition of heightmap. or similar 13:44:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> the current one stores only terrain height 13:44:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> some maps of mine use "dried up lakes" 13:44:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> but if i convert to heightmap to change the newgrfs then i have to re-dry alot of it 13:45:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> similar goes for the towns 13:45:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> i want to define a town spawnpoint 13:45:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> and rough size 13:45:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> then on game-generation it can place whatever town @ whatever towngrf provided to generate the scenario 13:46:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> making the scenario re-usable by diff grf-sets instead of having to provide 1 gazillion permutations to every newgrfset out there 13:46:34 <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: see http://wiki.openttd.org/Terkhen/Scenario_format 13:47:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> yes! 13:47:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> something like that 13:47:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> actually exactly that 13:48:07 <planetmaker> feel free to comment there :-) 13:48:19 <Alberth> os submit a patch :D 13:48:21 <Alberth> *or 13:48:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> reading the wiki now, it looks actually damn good 13:48:29 <planetmaker> (i hope Terkhen wouldn't mind). And yes... patch :-P 13:48:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> haha me and submitting a patch, you funny guy :) 13:48:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> the best "coding" i did was some minor java for a minor and SQL for wow-emulation 13:49:02 <Alberth> I have seen people starting to program to submit patches 13:49:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> i can read the C++ and understand what it does, but editting it is 100% not what i indend doing 13:49:30 * planetmaker waves hand at Alberth 13:49:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> specially not since ottd is a bit more complex then the wowemu setup (well for me its less understandable) 13:49:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> im more of a feedback / feature requester :P 13:49:55 <Alberth> oh, another one :) /me waves back to planetmaker 13:49:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> but that idea from Terkhen is actually what i meant 13:49:57 <andythenorth> people change 13:50:18 <andythenorth> I mean, once you used to poop yourself 3 times a day 13:50:26 <andythenorth> and you had to be fed in a high chair 13:50:26 <planetmaker> :-D 13:50:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> you should be able to define basestuff and then regardless of newgrf's it should work (aka newgrf-related changes can be applied) 13:50:41 <andythenorth> if we talk ourselves out of change, then....blearch 13:50:49 <andythenorth> although andythenorth can't sing 13:50:53 <Alberth> ZxBiohazardZx: we know already 13:50:54 <andythenorth> and probably can't learn 13:51:10 <andythenorth> ZxBiohazardZx: I have patches, why can't you? 13:51:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> because you dont like my coding skillz :) 13:51:27 <andythenorth> and you like mine? 13:51:35 <planetmaker> :-) 13:51:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> and seriously i dont have the time for learning cpp and the trunk layout 13:51:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> i already do some shit for wow-emulation and im 2 years behind on my bachelor civil engineering 13:52:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> im not a programmer, but who knows, if i get bored enough i might give it a try 13:52:17 <planetmaker> "screw the style and skills. Results are what count no matter the means" ;-) 13:52:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> i think i actually updated a patch once 13:52:21 <andythenorth> civils is over-rated anyway, I quit my civils degree 13:52:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka update the linechanges to trunk 13:52:35 <andythenorth> it's just concrete for hours, and soil mechanics 13:52:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> haha 13:52:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> you got it :( 13:52:43 <planetmaker> I'm not a programmer by profession... 13:52:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> fluid mechanics are a bigger pain for me 13:52:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> as i suck in math 13:52:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> stupid ODE's 13:53:10 <andythenorth> at least fluid mechanics is all just based on constants that nobody understands 13:53:10 <planetmaker> and if you can do fluid and continuum mechanics, then you can also programme. 13:53:17 <planetmaker> You *need* actually be able to programme 13:53:25 <andythenorth> if you can do finite element analysis, you can programme 13:53:49 <andythenorth> if you can do second level differentiation you can programme 13:53:55 <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: ODE? That's boring indeed. PDE! :-P 13:53:58 <andythenorth> geez, if you can do long division you can programme 13:54:05 * andythenorth can't do long division, never figured it 13:54:22 <andythenorth> most of my flash game programming involved tan / sin / cost, and not much else :P 13:54:30 <andythenorth> cos* 13:54:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> planet yeah any DE for that matter 13:54:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> meh yeah reminds me 13:54:52 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-21-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 13:55:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> i still have to pass Computer Graphics & Computational Intelligence for my minor programming 13:55:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> i succesfully did Java & web/db design 13:55:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> db design was my best :P 13:55:29 <andythenorth> write a fuzzy-logic based newgrf graphics generator 13:55:33 <planetmaker> then write a game script or AI for OpenTTD, if you can choose the topic ;-) 13:55:34 <andythenorth> that learns based on player feedback 13:55:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> cant planet, it hardly get the stupid ideas anyway 13:56:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> swarm intelligence, backward propagation, neural networking 13:56:12 <ZxBiohazardZx> i took the minor for the subjects i passed 13:56:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> the 2 others are the crap i have to work on 13:56:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> oh well first i must resit some civil subjects that are extremely boring 13:57:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> constructional safety (materials engineering 2.0) probability & statistics (epic fail with 1 point short) and numeretical methods for DEs (blegh) 14:00:53 <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: the numerical methods actually need not be boring at all. 14:01:10 <planetmaker> I find it actually quite intriguing. And it gives you a good idea how trustworthy results can be :-) 14:05:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> well yeah i actually like the last 14:05:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> the matlab is fine 14:05:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i can code/work with it 14:05:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> i just stink in the non-pc examn 14:06:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> stupid Tayloring screws up 14:06:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka i know something is O(h^2) but i sometimes have a hard time proving it 14:06:40 <ZxBiohazardZx> same for the testequation 14:06:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> i know the results for euler foward, backward and modified eurler 14:07:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i can work the methods 14:07:25 <planetmaker> hehe 14:07:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i sometimes jsut cant get the proof done on a given initial value problem 14:07:42 * andythenorth liked the first year unit where we made bridges 14:07:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> i got an 8/10 for matlabbing it, i got a 2/10 for the examn on paper :P 14:07:56 <andythenorth> and the practical experiment making rivers in the sand tank 14:08:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> Spagetti bridges :) 14:08:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> epic yearly event :) 14:08:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> anyway its holiday so /care 14:08:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> also to get back on creating/writing a patch 14:09:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> i feel first patch should be trivial / small 14:09:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> not a huge rewrite of a base feature :P 14:09:38 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24400 /trunk/src/ (strgen/strgen.cpp table/strgen_tables.h): -Add: Plural 'names' to the output of strgen -export-plurals. 14:09:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> i actually did some CPP for the wow-emulator 14:10:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> but openttd uses more actual hexcodes from what i see 14:10:54 <planetmaker> hex codes? where? 14:16:18 <frosch123> is bibi blocksberg known in the english world? hex-hex? 14:16:47 <planetmaker> :-D 14:16:59 <frosch123> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibi_Blocksberg <- at least there is an english wiki page 14:23:25 <andythenorth> not known to me :) 14:26:22 <andythenorth> if we fixed vehicle smoke, I could try adding support for it to nml :) 14:26:27 * andythenorth just saying 14:26:49 <TrueBrain> with a big tnx to frosch123 14:26:51 <TrueBrain> WT3 has a nice update :) 14:26:58 <TrueBrain> lets hope people understand genders and plurals more now 14:28:53 <andythenorth> lo TrueBrain 14:28:54 <andythenorth> :) 14:34:50 <andythenorth> "nml is so bracing" 14:34:55 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You haven't drawn your concrete/cobbled/mud tiles for non-flat slopes at any point, have you? :P 14:35:02 <andythenorth> nope 14:35:08 <FLHerne> :-( 14:35:08 <andythenorth> use foundations 14:35:18 * FLHerne gets out an image editor 14:35:19 <andythenorth> there are a *lot* of non-flat slopers 14:35:23 <andythenorth> there's only one flat tile 14:35:28 <FLHerne> True 14:35:33 <andythenorth> you'll need about 16 non-flat slope tiles 14:35:56 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 14:36:11 <FLHerne> Hmm. Moved to 'long-term ideas' then 14:36:37 <FLHerne> No slipways in other angles, either? 14:37:05 <andythenorth> nope 14:37:13 <FLHerne> Ah well 14:46:02 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:58:38 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 14:59:44 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 15:10:59 *** Jupix2 [~jupix@dsl-lprbrasgw1-ff11c100-110.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:17:56 *** Teckers [~Adium@host81-155-252-60.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 15:26:21 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-112-89.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 15:31:05 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-127-39.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:44:37 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Vehicle_variables 15:44:45 <andythenorth> why is vehicle current_speed expressed in m/s 15:44:45 <andythenorth> ? 15:44:56 <andythenorth> I can convert to that I guess 15:45:31 * andythenorth needs an mph to m/s converter :P 15:45:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth: NML knows units 15:45:59 <planetmaker> speed: 56 mph 15:46:02 <planetmaker> and you're set 15:46:05 <andythenorth> in a switch block? 15:46:13 <planetmaker> I guess not there (yet). 15:46:20 <andythenorth> yet (tm) 15:46:22 <andythenorth> ;) 15:46:29 <planetmaker> :-P 15:47:04 <andythenorth> (speed * 1609) / 360 or something 15:49:02 <frosch123> i thought i read a commit message about units being supported in switches 15:49:08 * andythenorth will try 15:49:54 <andythenorth> nmlc: "fish.nml", line 1065: Using a unit is in switch-ranges is not (temporarily) not supported 15:50:32 <andythenorth> @calc 1609/360 15:50:32 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 4.46944444444 15:53:01 <andythenorth> ach my maths is off 15:53:58 <andythenorth> 10 mph = 16090 meters per hour 15:54:04 <andythenorth> 16090 / 60 15:54:09 <andythenorth> @calc 1609 / 60 15:54:09 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 26.8166666667 15:54:19 <andythenorth> @calc 26.82 / 60 15:54:19 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.447 15:55:03 <andythenorth> better 15:57:03 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-103-012.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 15:57:30 <andythenorth> hydrofoils work again (rise out of the water as they go faster) 15:58:00 <andythenorth> world's ugliest code: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1543/ 16:07:53 *** Progman [~progman@p57A198E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:56 <andythenorth> hmm 16:08:59 <andythenorth> making stuff is fun 16:10:17 <Alberth> code looks very scary 16:12:35 <andythenorth> it's just ugly 16:12:40 <andythenorth> mostly it's just maths 16:12:44 <andythenorth> hard to read :P 16:12:57 <andythenorth> I could abstract some of it away to the vehicle class 16:13:06 <andythenorth> but then you have to go look up abstractions to read it :P 16:13:23 <andythenorth> rock > andy < hard place 16:21:24 <Alberth> use the rock to beat the hard place to something softer ? 16:22:00 <andythenorth> good point 16:22:09 <andythenorth> or beat the rock on the hard place until it breaks :P 16:22:38 <Alberth> and if very very very lucky, you break both :D 16:23:18 <andythenorth> or me 16:27:24 <Alberth> that would be extremely unfortunate 16:30:19 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:944c:7288:17a3:abd] has joined #openttd 16:30:22 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 16:35:26 <andythenorth> another ship sorted 16:35:52 <andythenorth> wish I could diff the resulting action 0 props :P 16:36:05 <andythenorth> I have no idea if I'm introducing bugs to the basic properties 16:36:26 <andythenorth> nfo -> nml 16:42:56 <andythenorth> also, SSD increases battery life insanely 16:43:21 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What are the sprites in http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/repository/changes/sprites/graphics/generictiles.png intended for? 16:43:46 <andythenorth> they were copied from FIRS but not used 16:43:54 <andythenorth> you have storage tanks (used a lot in FIRS) 16:44:09 <andythenorth> and then staithes for sand / clay / stone 16:45:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> DWE tiles have them in use 16:45:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> or similar, they use wooden sidings 16:45:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> or ground-dikes 16:46:35 <FLHerne> Thanks :-) 16:48:25 * FLHerne adds them as objects 16:53:11 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 16:53:47 <FLHerne> Back later 16:53:57 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 16:55:43 *** Teckers [~Adium@host81-155-252-60.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:56:23 *** brambles [brambles@79.133.200.49] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:48 *** brambles [brambles@79.133.200.49] has joined #openttd 16:56:59 * andythenorth finds that a lot of spritesets have to be added when using nml 16:57:08 <andythenorth> which is a lot of identifiers to write :P 16:57:12 <andythenorth> am I doing it wrong? 16:57:28 <andythenorth> e.g. three load states means three spritesets 16:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> my spritesets are autogenerated :) 16:58:21 <andythenorth> BANDIT ones are too 16:58:24 <andythenorth> FISH not 16:58:31 <andythenorth> can't be bothered to figure out what's generic 17:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i generate a tree (or non-cyclic graph) of switches, and then name my spritesets <vehicleid>_<X>_<Y>_<Z> where X, Y and Z are the branch numbers of each switch 17:07:13 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:07:48 <andythenorth> you are smarter than me :) 17:11:36 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q)] 17:15:59 * andythenorth should probably have encouraged Zx more about his degree :P 17:16:18 <andythenorth> but all the civil engineers I met during my degree hated it :P 17:31:42 <andythenorth> what do we think about sound effects for ships? 17:31:47 <andythenorth> as I am about to code the damn things :P 17:33:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know anything about ship sounds 17:33:26 <M1zera> all you need to know is "bhooooooooooooooooo" :-) 17:33:27 <andythenorth> there are two in the base set iirc? 17:33:30 * andythenorth checks 17:33:34 <andythenorth> I did this for nfo FISH 17:33:40 <andythenorth> I just wonder if it was worth it 17:34:00 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24401 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt korean.txt lithuanian.txt): 17:34:00 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:34:00 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: czech - 8 changes by RabbRubbish 17:34:00 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 7 changes by telk5093 17:34:00 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 25 changes by Stabilitronas 17:37:02 <andythenorth> ferry horn 17:37:04 <andythenorth> ship horn 17:37:22 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:37:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the bigger the ship the louder the horn! :p 17:38:10 <andythenorth> volume cb? 17:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid you'll have to provide different samples for that :) 17:40:28 <andythenorth> hmm 17:40:37 <andythenorth> nvm :) 17:42:54 <andythenorth> there's probably a pure nml way to do this right? 17:42:55 <andythenorth> sound_effect: ${('SOUND_SHIP_HORN','SOUND_FERRY_HORN')[vehicle.default_cargo=='PASS']}; 17:43:32 <andythenorth> ternary operator? 17:44:13 <andythenorth> but I don't know how I'd get the vehicle's default cargo in an action 0 context :P 17:45:48 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: NML allows to specify a sound volume, but I'm too lazy right now if that's a default feature or emulated by NML with duplicated and modified sounds in the GRF. 17:46:19 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 17:46:38 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: doesn't sound like a decision that should be made at runtime... 17:47:10 <andythenorth> no, compile time indeed 17:47:27 <andythenorth> the python works fine, just wondered if nml had a way... 17:47:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: ternary operator is runtime 17:47:45 <andythenorth> k 17:48:18 * andythenorth moves on to automagic cost setting 18:00:43 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:07:37 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 18:16:09 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:19:12 <frosch123> @seen hyro* 18:19:12 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Hyronymus was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Hyronymus> ~0~ 18:19:50 <frosch123> planetmaker: remember what newgrf hyro wanted to upload to bananas with translated readmes and such? 18:21:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: bananas has a new feature! :o 18:25:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> Assertation failed at line 341 of ..\src\linkgraph.cpp: source_flows.empty() 18:25:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> can that be caused by newgrfs or is that actually bad code 18:25:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> chrill patchpack 18:25:56 <frosch123> looks cargodist related 18:27:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah thats my point 18:27:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> i know there are newgrf changes though 18:28:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> but this error is most frequent popper, and i think its related to the patchpack, and not to the changes 18:28:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> was emergency save so cant recall the full report, i can get original(previous similar one) if it helps 18:29:01 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 18:33:57 <frosch123> if your newgrf changes imposed changes to cargos, industries or vehicle capacities, i can very well imagine them causing trouble for cargodist 18:43:30 *** brambles [brambles@79.133.200.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:22 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:53:10 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 18:59:51 <Elukka> i haven't had any trouble using cargodist with any number of vehicle sets and FIRS, though i usually have it off for industries 19:00:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> frosch123 then i blame newgrfchanges 19:00:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> roma loaded ECS on existing scenario/heightmap i believe 19:01:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> hence i asked for the new scenario save format earlier today 19:01:10 <Elukka> oh, we're talking about changes to newgrfs as a whole aren't we 19:01:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> the wiki suggestion is honestly a good setup for scenario's / heightmap 19:11:00 <Terkhen> don't forget to comment in the forum thread if you think of any improvements or problems with the format :) 19:12:09 * Terkhen hopes to have time and the desire to code this summer 19:12:30 <Alberth> weather too good to code? :) 19:14:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> nah Terkhen 19:14:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> for towns i suggest to just give spawnpoint+size 19:14:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i think that the format has that 19:15:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> not sure about scaling though 19:15:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> but thats heightmap related 19:15:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> and we can already scale them to a certain level 19:15:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> going to much on it ruins the heightmap usually 19:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: can't imagine anything "good" about summer-weather in spain :p 19:16:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> and on cpp with extra heightlevel it always seems flat to me 19:16:32 <Terkhen> Alberth: enough free time to get bored of procrastination and games, which is what I mostly do after work nowadays 19:16:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> but Terkhen your final format can be used with any newgrfset right? 19:16:58 <Alberth> Terkhen: coding is also a game :p 19:17:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> even diff industries/townbuildings? 19:17:04 <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: the idea is that newgrfs are not contemplated at all by the format 19:17:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> good 19:17:14 <Terkhen> townbuildings are not considered at all 19:17:18 <Terkhen> and right now the industry layer is missing 19:17:27 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:17:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> i was majorly annoyed by newgrfs causing crashes in scenarios i edit 19:17:30 <Terkhen> because it would need more thinking :) 19:17:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka sometimes i make a scenario 4-5x the same just so i can replay it with diff newgrfs 19:17:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> and thats a pain 19:18:07 <Terkhen> that's exactly the reason for making a new scenario format 19:18:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> also imo the main-menu gui is wrong (newgrf selections should be obligatory part of starting a newgame) but thats a diff story 19:18:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen i agree, it looked really good 19:18:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> for objectfiles 19:19:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> if you have multiple objects they all go in 1 file 19:19:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> right? 19:19:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka all towns into 1 towns file, where creation identifier is linked to the town file? 19:19:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> [town1] town1data [town2] town2data 19:19:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> etc? 19:20:25 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC674D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:41 <Terkhen> yes 19:20:45 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC674D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:20:48 <Terkhen> each layer goes to a single file 19:21:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> k 19:21:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> what about industry then 19:21:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> i see you mentioned complicated 19:21:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> thats i recon due to newgrf's 19:21:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe you can make it switch-case depending 19:22:05 <Terkhen> how would you identify industries in a newgrf independent way? 19:22:33 <ZxBiohazardZx> by only defining WHERE it should be placed and not WHAT should be placed? 19:22:40 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka define X fee tiles for the industry 19:22:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> if you define just enough space for a coalmine 19:22:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> but not enough for something else 19:22:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> then it spawns there 19:22:58 <Terkhen> that's almost random, there is almost no difference with not having any industry data :) 19:23:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz true 19:23:12 <Alberth> "enough space" is already newgrf specific 19:23:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah your right Alberth 19:23:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> i usually have random industries anyway 19:23:42 <Alberth> place + desired input + desired output cargoes? 19:23:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> its towns/terrain that is the biggest pain to do 19:24:06 <ZxBiohazardZx> industries are less of a pain for me 19:24:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe allow 3 base-sets to be defined 19:24:25 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka change industry/cargo newgrfs into basesetlike status 19:24:30 <Terkhen> output cargoes are also newgrf dependent 19:24:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> instead of baseset add [industry] where whoever gives a newgrf has to at least provide 3-4 default types? 19:25:02 <Alberth> FIRS coal != default coal? 19:25:11 <andythenorth> dunno 19:25:23 <Terkhen> it might be in that particular case, but the specs allow different types of coal 19:25:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> but yeah industries for me are the lesser issue 19:25:30 <Terkhen> or industries producing different cargos 19:25:36 <Terkhen> or different industries producing the same cargos 19:25:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> the major ones are roads, towns, canals/rivers etc 19:25:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe tfor the industry layer add a specifier 19:26:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka must use this grf to generate the industry 19:26:15 <Alberth> Terkhen: cargo1, cargo2, etc then, where you can pick the actual cargo :) 19:26:20 <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: that defeats the point of the new format 19:26:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> true 19:26:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> well as i said, for me its important that towns/roads & canals are there 19:26:39 * Terkhen 's plan goes along industry classes and industry labels 19:26:43 <Terkhen> but I have not thought much about it 19:26:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> as most my changes are in those 19:26:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> trees as well ofc 19:26:55 <Terkhen> if I manage to implement everything else I'm happy already 19:27:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah was bout to say 19:27:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> just getting the rest would be the main objective 19:27:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> also by making roads a 9 pixel block you get a huge road-layer image when playing big maps (2kx2k+) 19:28:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> 2048x2048 px heightmap results into a 6144*6144 roadmap? 19:29:01 <Terkhen> 6144*6144*4 is still relatively small 19:29:06 <Terkhen> IIRC it had four colours 19:29:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 19:30:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> i was about to say, cant you make it 2048x2048 as well but use colors for the 9 possible road combinations on tile? 19:31:27 <Terkhen> do the math, the result in used bytes is about the same 19:31:41 <Terkhen> and we also would like to keep the image layers as human readable as possible 19:32:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> fair enough 19:32:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> 9 options, 9 pixels 19:32:33 *** cmircea_ [~cmircea@86.123.42.12] has joined #openttd 19:32:41 <Supercheese> Forwards-compatible with 45-degree roads? :P 19:32:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> or mip-map whatever 19:32:46 <Alberth> Terkhen: make the other images also 3x3 pixels per tile? 19:33:08 <Terkhen> why? 19:33:15 <Alberth> easier overlaying 19:33:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen maybe add optional railway layer? or does that break newgrf again? 19:33:43 <Alberth> ZxBiohazardZx: scenarios don't have company stuff :) 19:33:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah forgot 19:33:53 <Terkhen> fair point 19:33:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> old game had "scenario-saves" 19:33:58 <Terkhen> it would complicate things, though 19:34:02 <Terkhen> (the easier overlaying thing) 19:34:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> schotland 1945 & the desert one 19:34:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> but they were saves ofc 19:34:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> airports in case we ever get town-owned-airports of the ground? 19:34:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> (also why was that not possible again?) 19:34:44 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.123.42.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:34:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> town-owned-stations in general for that matter 19:34:50 <Alberth> probably due to blocking 19:34:57 <Alberth> just like infra sharing 19:34:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> ah nvm it requires the non-trunked IS sharing 19:35:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah 19:35:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> is-sharing is epic though 19:35:51 <Alberth> if you have co-operative players, yeah 19:36:23 <Alberth> yet you already see havoc at unsupervised MP games without IS 19:36:33 <Terkhen> I'll gladly let whoever codes IS the town stations in extended heightmap problems :) 19:36:35 <Alberth> imagine the mess if you add IS :) 19:36:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> for me is isnt that much of an issue but yeah 19:37:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> i play IS coop though :P 19:37:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen maybe change Tropical Layer to "climate layer" 19:38:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> as then you can also integrate snowline etc for artic 19:38:48 <Terkhen> snowline is part of the general data 19:38:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> treeline (no trees in colored parts?) 19:39:01 <Terkhen> but I agree, the name could be changed for "future compatibility" 19:39:03 <ZxBiohazardZx> what in tropical layer isnt 19:39:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> k 19:39:27 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-112.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 19:41:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> also for the industry thing 19:41:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe make it optional param 19:41:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> if not provided then manual place your shizzles 19:41:24 <Terkhen> for industries I want a single, universal solution 19:41:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> if provided baseset then you can use pre-placed 19:41:28 <Terkhen> universal == newgrf agnostic 19:41:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah thats gonna be an issue with newgrfs changing them up so much 19:42:28 <ZxBiohazardZx> there is no standard, if you play with only certain ECS vectors or FIRS you have completely different industries then baseset 19:42:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> so yeah, tricky indeed 19:42:42 <ZxBiohazardZx> i assume trees are part of terrain 19:42:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> as we also have tree-changing-grfs :P 19:43:11 <Terkhen> ideally, the newgrf agnostic method would give great results if you use the same industry newgrf set, and not so great results if you change it 19:43:21 <Terkhen> I don't think it's possible to do something better than that 19:43:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz fair enough 19:43:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> id put my signature up for anything that gives me the option of changing newgrfs for scenarios i play 19:43:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> usually different townsets/roadsets/bridgesets 19:44:37 <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe save industries on diff file/object that can be removed/purged if loaded with non-linked file? 19:44:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka if i create scn on ECS but dont load it, it has 0 industries and does not error about it 19:45:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i can manually place/fund/whatever industries if i truely need them? 19:45:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> new format will require the newgrf-selection to be a primairy part before playing/opening the scenario :P 19:45:52 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka the menu gui revamp someone mentioned 19:46:42 <Terkhen> since the new scenario format also lets you decide which settings and advanced settings you want to use 19:46:50 <Terkhen> you could recreate industries in any way you want 19:47:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah currently reloading newgrfs in a running game is horribad 19:47:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> so the loading/starting a scenario with newformat needs a obligatory selection ofc 19:47:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> but other then that its a great suggestion 19:47:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> cant wait to see it work :P 19:48:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> wish i could help, but i cant code for shit :) 19:50:11 <Terkhen> the patch itself is relatively simple, Alberth already coded the complicated part 19:50:25 <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen what is needed? 19:50:46 <Terkhen> what is difficult is that it is quite big, and thinking what is needed to code and how to split it in small, manageable parts will be a PITA 19:50:54 <Terkhen> so... what is needed is time :) 19:52:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> :P good old time :( 19:53:43 <Terkhen> :P 19:53:57 <NGC3982> http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/532254_10150931033196466_1560544010_n.jpg 19:54:00 <NGC3982> NGC1850 19:55:39 <Terkhen> that's your cousin? 19:55:44 <Terkhen> time for dinner, bbl 19:55:49 <NGC3982> indeed, it is. 19:55:53 <NGC3982> hey, a shot in the dark 19:55:59 <NGC3982> the word "brio" 19:56:08 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.] 19:56:20 <NGC3982> used in the older british language 19:56:37 <NGC3982> what does it mean? i fail to find references on it. 19:56:47 <NGC3982> except eddie izzard in oceans' thirteen. 19:56:47 <NGC3982> .. 19:58:11 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:07:59 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:08:51 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 20:13:44 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd [] 20:20:18 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-5d822051.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 20:22:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A198E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:23:57 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:31:49 * FLHerne gets stuck on multitile objects 20:32:21 <FLHerne> Anyone know how which bit of documentation I need to look at? 20:35:12 <Terkhen> NewGRF/NML specs? 20:36:59 <FLHerne> I sort of guessed that bit. Looked at Spriteset, Spritelayout and Item, but can't find what I'm looking for :-( 20:40:13 <frosch123> there is a property to set the size 20:40:16 <frosch123> and number of views 20:40:36 <frosch123> and there is a variable for switches to make stuff depend on the position within the object 20:41:04 <FLHerne> Ah. The third bit is what I need :-) 20:41:21 * FLHerne looks it up 20:43:57 <FLHerne> So I give relative_pos to a switch block to specify which graphics are drawn for each tile? 20:44:34 <FLHerne> Or did I completely misread that? :P 20:45:34 *** pjpe [ae5f3d1d@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:48:17 <frosch123> correct 20:49:20 <FLHerne> Thanks :-) 20:50:41 *** roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.132.218] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:57:46 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 21:03:23 *** Bolsiq [~bxts@77-253-128-102.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #openttd 21:08:06 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-112.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 21:13:04 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f41b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:27 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-244-89.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 21:15:08 <LordAro> evening 21:19:11 <Terkhen> good night 21:22:17 <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen 21:23:47 *** Progman [~progman@p57A198E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:52 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:48:07 *** pjpe [ae5f3d1d@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 22:07:28 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Hugs to all] 22:10:39 *** EyeMWing [~Wing@c-68-33-226-154.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:19:19 * FLHerne tries to decide between NML and sleep :P 22:20:20 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 22:22:15 <LordAro> sleep. everytime. 22:22:17 * planetmaker suggests sleep and NML. In that order ;-) 22:23:27 <FLHerne> Ah well, tomorrow's Sunday :P 22:23:33 * FLHerne makes some tea 22:23:39 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:25:49 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-53-3.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 22:25:52 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 22:28:58 <Wolf01> 'night 22:30:05 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:31:51 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-61-85.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:32:56 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-21-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:00 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 22:40:15 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:44 *** Wakou [~stephen@host86-129-34-31.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 23:07:15 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:07:17 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 23:24:31 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-112.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 23:34:07 *** pjpe [ae5f3d1d@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 23:34:35 * NGC3982 makes lemonade. 23:42:53 <FLHerne> Which timezone? 23:43:07 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:43:10 <FLHerne> Seems odd to make lemonade in the middle of the night :P 23:43:21 <Eddi|zuHause> how does lemonade depend on time zones? 23:44:14 <FLHerne> I just can't imagine wanting to drink lemonade while sitting at a keyboard in a pitch-dark room at 1 am :P 23:56:14 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-244-89.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:05 <Elukka> i could