Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:23 <drac_boy> small boiler = low pressure + large pipes/pistons = too much work for little train 00:00:51 <Asteconn> I'll take your word for it 00:00:54 <Asteconn> lol 00:01:05 <Asteconn> Steam traction doesn't hold any particular fascination with me 00:01:06 <drac_boy> mind you Erie had the most worst example afaik ... a triplex locomotive (third set of drivers was under the tender btw) ... boiler of the day was like 160-210psi .. and not that big ... so yeah .. the engine was only good for 10mph pusher service for its short life 00:01:22 <drac_boy> and 'Erie' as in the name of an old railroad 00:01:44 <drac_boy> 10mph is really slow..that told you how little steam it could make for the big six pistons :-| 00:02:09 <drac_boy> if it had a much bigger boiler it could had done ok 00:02:11 <Asteconn> :P 00:03:08 <drac_boy> for comparsion sake .. N&W Y6B was a huge compounding mallet .. could haul a lot of coal up the mountain route at 25mph one day then wheel fast freight elsewhere at 50mph 00:03:15 <drac_boy> was a good design and it showed ;) 00:03:45 <drac_boy> and for the record... when the fireman sticks his head out of the cab its barely as big as one of the sand dome on top of boiler ... it was one huge locomotive ;) 00:04:08 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-105-133.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 00:04:10 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 00:04:10 <drac_boy> http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imagebase/norfolksouthern/full/ns1001.jpeg here if you want know Asteconn 00:04:11 <Pinkbeast> Grate size could also be very wrong relative to boiler size. 00:04:20 *** APTX_ [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has joined #openttd 00:04:24 <Kylie> (not asking a question) it's interesting how many trucks you'd actually need to transport coal and how the operating expenses would dwarf that 00:04:27 <Asteconn> I think the coolest looking north american steam locomotive was the 2-6-6-6s 00:04:39 <Asteconn> heh xD 00:04:40 <drac_boy> the extra pipes over the drive axles are for the complicated piston diverting valves... 00:04:46 <Asteconn> Which GRF are you using Kylie ? 00:05:10 <drac_boy> so it could start with the boiler feeding all four pistons for a short time .. then as train moved it could shut off the front and assume normal boiler>low>high compounding to keep moving 00:05:16 <drac_boy> if that made sense to you I hope 00:05:25 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:01 <Kylie> Asteconn: light rail/tramtracks, us town names, two from the cc seet, base costs, town replacement, etc 00:06:07 <Pinkbeast> Some of Webb's compound 2-2-2-2s had the... useful characteristic that the reverser on the lp cylinders only kicked in when in motion, so they would sometimes sit spinning their wheels in opposite directions. 00:06:16 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast yeah as I recall some usa steam locomotive designs started off with the boiler pipe lengths somewhat a little bit mismashed but when a second class (or complete rebuild either way) was done they corrected the ratio to get a better locomotive without doing much else 00:07:16 <Asteconn> Ah righto 00:07:35 <Pinkbeast> Well, the right ratio of grate / boiler / heating surface / superheater / piston size did take a while to get right. :-) 00:07:57 <Asteconn> Kylie: Not too familar with those, but I do know that coal is always a good money maker 00:08:04 <Asteconn> Do you 'full load any cargo' your orders? 00:08:19 <Kylie> Asteconn: I wasn't aasking a question just now 00:08:27 <Kylie> at all 00:08:42 <Asteconn> ? 00:08:58 <drac_boy> eg locomotive first came with 4ft2inch boiler pipes but when rebuilt it became 3ft5inch instead with extra superheating lengths added ... was still the same chassis and boiler but had better performance 00:09:05 <drac_boy> you know what I mean Pinkbeast? ^ 00:09:10 <Kylie> (not asking a question) it's interesting how many trucks you'd actually need to transport coal and how the operating expenses would dwarf that <<<< I wwas just saying that, not actually asking anything Asteconn 00:09:21 <Asteconn> Fair enough ^^ 00:09:24 * Pinkbeast knows very little about US types. 00:09:26 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-55-38.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:09:49 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast as for the webb compound .. is that the one where it should had been a freewheel 2-4-2 but was a 2-2-2-2 instead and only a few engineers really knew how to use it? 00:10:01 <drac_boy> I think I had seen a photo of it but let me check online to be sure 00:10:20 <Pinkbeast> Webb built a lot of 2-2-2-2s with various compounding arrangements, all rebuilt as 2-4-2s. 00:10:49 <Kylie> so uh Asteconn where do i adjust base costs 00:11:42 <Pinkbeast> Some were better than others. (Particularly, the ones without bogus cutoff / reversing arrangements for the lp cylinder(s)) 00:12:17 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast hmm the photo I recall of was the kind that had a narrow boiler with the drive wheels being big that they were almost on the side rather than underneath the boiler 00:12:28 <drac_boy> but yeah I do see some photos of other newer Webb locomotives 00:13:00 <drac_boy> always wondered what they were thinking making 2-2-2-2's instead of 2-4-2's but who would really know? :) 00:13:52 <Asteconn> Kylie: You do so in the GRF parameters 00:14:07 <Pinkbeast> In the early days there were significant efficiency penalties for connecting rods. 00:14:11 <Asteconn> It has a list of [blank to start] types and their cost modifiers 00:14:14 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast did uk ever have them or was it only france that had these strange locomotives that were LP on one side and HP on other side for a single set of drivers? 00:14:32 <Pinkbeast> It's why the 2-2-2 / 4-2-2s made a comeback with the invention of the steam sander. 00:14:37 <drac_boy> I know france had quite a number of them .. called Corss-something .. I forgot the actual spelling 00:14:48 <Pinkbeast> I am aware of no UK locomotive in that arrangement, no. How weird. 00:14:58 <Kylie> There 00:15:05 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast yeah apparently they were looking to improve single locomotives without the use of mallet constructions 00:15:07 <Kylie> I fiinished 1st coal :D 00:15:08 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:15:17 <drac_boy> not sure how well they ran .. I never found much to read about them in english :-s 00:15:25 <Pinkbeast> Yeah, but why make them lopsided? 00:15:35 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast you tell me I have no clue :P 00:17:05 <Pinkbeast> The balancing problems must have been hideous. 00:17:24 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast not so much .... some of them ran express trains so :-s 00:17:44 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast btw how common was 3-cylinder powers anyway? 00:18:00 <Pinkbeast> Very uncommon, here, aside from Gresley's locomotives. 00:18:58 <drac_boy> usa only had a few examples from Alco alone .. a few in west coast (UP) and northeast coast (New Haven, etc) ... some people had thought they were more difficult to work on but couldn't complain about them being much stronger runner than a conventional 2-cylinder otherwise.... 00:19:03 <Pinkbeast> And after Webb compounds were almost unheard of apart from articulated locos. 00:19:18 <Pinkbeast> 4 cylinder was a much more common arrangement (still not compound). 00:19:27 <drac_boy> and close to & during dieselization it turned out that 3 cylinders were better at low speed for humping works, figures 00:20:01 <Pinkbeast> Gresley's No. 10000 "Hush-hush" is about the only late compound I can think of. 00:20:06 <drac_boy> made sense when you think about it tho... with 2-cylinder you had one at 0 degree and other at 180 degree ... not very flexible torque chart there... 00:20:20 <drac_boy> but with 3 cylinders .. you had less 'dead torque' tho 00:20:22 <Pinkbeast> Errrr I think you'll find you have one at 0 and one at 90. 00:20:38 <Pinkbeast> Otherwise it is very hard to move away if you stop at dead-centre. 00:20:45 <drac_boy> heh sorry .. wrong number . still I mean the 3 cylinder had much closer strokes than 2 00:21:23 <drac_boy> interestingly enough even the BR.05 was a 3-cylinder as well....but for express 00:22:12 <Pinkbeast> Well, most of Gresley's 3-cylinders were built for express use, and Thompson mostly did't rebuild those. 00:22:45 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast btw I can't recall where I had heard of this but someone had a very weird idea once... design a locomotive that had two small outside and one large inside piston ... apparently they were thinking 2LP>1HP compounding setup .. don't know how well that fared at all tbh 00:23:07 <drac_boy> can imagine the valves must had been complicated 00:23:21 <drac_boy> I think 3-cylinder is and always should be simple 00:23:25 <Pinkbeast> I'll bet Gresley's valve gear can drive that with the right length levers. 00:23:49 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:03 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 00:24:18 <Pinkbeast> But after you realise you don't actually want to let people control the LP cutoff separately, it's easier. 00:24:36 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast mm 00:24:49 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast either way here's something a bit unusual but not too unique for you to think about... 00:25:39 <drac_boy> http://dummidumbwit.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/sp-cab-forward-web-500.jpg I know you had some cabforwards over there but this SP one was only done to solve one simple problem: put smoke behind the cab instead for the long tunnels 00:26:02 <drac_boy> they were all oil fired so it was easy enough said done :-> 00:26:50 <Pinkbeast> Looks familiar. We had very few (I've never understood why) apart from tender locomotives being cab-forward half the time. 00:27:18 <Pinkbeast> Er. 00:27:22 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast mm I don't either but for SP it makes perfect sense....smoke ahead of cab + long tunnel = choking problem 00:27:32 <drac_boy> so..flip the locomotive itself around :) 00:27:33 <Pinkbeast> Excuse me, I mean, tank locomotives. And after about 2 seconds I do. 00:27:55 <Pinkbeast> If it's a coal-fired tender locomotive, where's the coal? :-) 00:28:11 <Pinkbeast> Stupid of me. 00:28:47 <drac_boy> could be a bit weird in certain photos...you would be thinking its one single locomotive till you look closely and notice theres only one single set of pipes between the cab and tender ... duh .. you're actually looking at two cabforwards :P 00:29:04 <drac_boy> (aka the lack of water and oil pipes gives it away) 00:29:05 <Pinkbeast> Gresley (for it is he) designed a very early electric for the long-tunnel problem which is in the NRM. 00:30:23 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast mainline electrification pretty much started with B&O in usa as far as I even know... it was one tunnel underneath the city ... so they had 3rd rail locomotives that hauled trains through the tunnel ...replaced by newer steeplecabs .. before being succed by the diesels 00:31:05 <drac_boy> but for heavy electrifications you have to give that to both PRR and New Haven .. they pretty much covered almost all of northeast usa with 11000VAC :) 00:31:10 <Pinkbeast> The Tube here, obviously. 00:31:12 <drac_boy> PRR = the GG1 00:31:36 <drac_boy> and just so you know.. the GG1 was more or less designed after the chassis of a NH electric 00:32:15 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast say .. what do you think of the few electric-diesel locomotives you had in uk so far? 00:32:33 <Pinkbeast> As in, to run on electrified and non-electrified lines? 00:33:04 <Pinkbeast> No thanks. We should just electrify everywhere like any sane country. 00:33:16 <drac_boy> usa only had one single well known example .. EMD FL9 .. basically take your F7 .. give it a bit newer diesel engine .. install third rail pickup shoes and the electronics needed for that .. and of course it had a B-1A1 arrangement instead due to the extra weight of the rear steam boiler heating 00:33:29 <Pinkbeast> There's one in UKRS somewhere. 00:33:38 <drac_boy> a few still ran under amtrak for a while before finally being retired 00:34:15 <drac_boy> the FL9 lasted more than 30 years due to being an unique specific-needs design ... when any other carbody diesels had long been scrapped 00:34:15 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: keoz] 00:34:18 <drac_boy> go figure with it 00:34:57 <Pinkbeast> Reminds me, Steam on the Metropolitan next year. And we might see Sarah Siddons, to boot. 00:35:08 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast well electric-diesel does make sense if its only a small fleet for routes that would have problem with one or other straight power 00:35:24 <Pinkbeast> Not if you electrify all your routes like any sensible etc etc 00:35:38 <Pinkbeast> And rescue locomotives can be straight diesel. 00:35:53 <drac_boy> eg electrics not having enough money-worthy route to build onto .. and diesel being banned due to emission problem .... combine both and that solves your problem 00:36:56 <drac_boy> the FL9 actually had some sections on its original route where it had to actually shut down the diesel engine cold due to tunnel issues 00:38:21 <Pinkbeast> I think electrification would always pay off in the long run, so I don't really believe in money-worthy. 00:38:29 <drac_boy> and don't know if this surprises you but when amtrak took over the PRR and NH electrics .. it had two large sections that had no electrifications which explained their ongoing use of the FL9 aside to at-station locomotive swaps till they finally could get the fund to patch that 00:38:46 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast why would ypu put in a lot of money for basically what is just a few trains a week? 00:39:09 <Pinkbeast> I'd rather (on the routes we have a problem here) swap locomotives, although the rise of the MU has made that harder. 00:39:18 <Pinkbeast> It's still capital vs. marginal costs. 00:39:34 <drac_boy> well Pinkbeast if the electrification is only short distance .. just use low-voltage DC 00:40:17 <drac_boy> there were actually some dmus that had "straight" third-rail shoes ... apparently the traction voltage was the same as the 3rd rail voltage .. so they didn't even need much of any transformer at all ... there would had been no space for one under the chassis with the diesel engine + tank taking up the space 00:40:31 <drac_boy> I can't remember where I had seen that but they existed 00:41:05 <Pinkbeast> That is quite clever. 00:41:37 <drac_boy> although its moot now because if I recall Today's Railway Europe issues right .. Alstorm already is selling a MU train that has diesel+ac1+ac2 or diesel+ac1+dc 00:41:59 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-16-203.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 00:41:59 <drac_boy> did not have enough space to fit a 3-way transformer with the diesel engine tho .. still .. goes to show you 00:42:31 <drac_boy> they did sell a non-diesel version for tri-voltage anyway 00:42:55 <Pinkbeast> The good thing about standards is there are so many to choose from. :-) 00:43:02 <drac_boy> heh 00:43:09 <Pinkbeast> At least we solved the gauge question here early. Wrongly, but we solved it. 00:43:17 <drac_boy> well to be honest I don't understand the different voltages everyone use but oh well 00:43:25 <drac_boy> gauge? 00:43:33 <Pinkbeast> Track gauge. 00:43:48 <drac_boy> you mean as in it being smaller loading gauge than everyone else? :P 00:44:13 <drac_boy> heh actually sometimes I never could understand uk ... certain locomotives being banned only because they had an extra inch of overhang on curves etc 00:44:19 <drac_boy> oh well :-> 00:45:04 <drac_boy> at least HS1 pretty much could handle anything .. i still think about that test run where a TGV actually showed up in uk :) 00:45:08 *** thomas001 [~chatzilla@ip-195-098-026-217.static.nextra.sk] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:45:40 <drac_boy> about DB's wish to run ICE4M or something (don't recall exact details) into uk ... I'm still waiting for any more news on that 00:45:44 <Pinkbeast> No, track gauge. The distance between the wheels. 00:46:04 <Pinkbeast> As I understood it we expect DB to turn up in London in a year or two (thankfully). 00:46:29 <drac_boy> I never really understood the eurostar trains ... at least thankfully some of the chunnel regulations were or are going to be relaxed 00:46:35 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-34-157.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:46:46 <drac_boy> some people have wisely suggested that these "jumbo" trains are just too big for certain markets 00:47:14 <Pinkbeast> Brunel was right about the broad gauge, but sadly his locomotive policy was otherwise mad. 00:48:42 <drac_boy> btw that reminds me...its been quite a while since I saw the news on this but apparently JNR was working on shinkasen "covered rail carrier" wagons (for lack of words to explain it now) that would allow the usual NG consists to travel over the bullet lines if distance or so were enough to warrent the delay at both ends 00:49:04 <drac_boy> I think it probably had to do with them wanting to enlarge one of that northern tunnel for bullet service 00:49:26 <Pinkbeast> Freight can't stay at 90mph forever. :-) 00:49:36 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast actually its not really that... 00:50:09 <drac_boy> you can't mix 80km/h and 200km/h trains on a single dual-gauge track through a long tunnel .. it would cause too much scheduling problem with so few trains per hour 00:50:21 <Pinkbeast> I think you misunderstand me. 00:50:35 <drac_boy> so...I don't know exactly what they're doing yet but apparently one plan could be to put the NG trains aboard the bullets :-> 00:50:37 <drac_boy> oh heh ok 00:50:49 <Pinkbeast> I don't mean "freight cannot sustain such speeds". I mean "freight, I expect, will get faster in the future from the 90mph or so it is now (here)" 00:51:13 <drac_boy> if thats what you think ... I'm the opposite tho ... so might be better to not talk about it :P 00:51:36 <Pinkbeast> I'm interested to know why you think that? 00:54:53 <drac_boy> light inexpensive trains whether its actually metre gauge or not. there isn't really much need for more in an economy sense 00:55:08 <drac_boy> it might be too long story and you wouldn't like it anyway from what you've mentioned so...don't ask? :P 00:56:18 <Pinkbeast> I don't know what I wouldn't like, beyond that I don't like road haulage and would like rid of it; but pathing gets easier if everything's the same speed, and pax is way over 90mph even here. :-) 00:57:47 <drac_boy> well I would rather let freight take their spider-like network all over the place ... and put passengers on their own limited hubs-biased high grade high speed line 00:57:59 <drac_boy> I guess I sound too much like japan did in the 1960s I know :- 00:58:14 <drac_boy> :-|* 00:58:47 <Pinkbeast> But what about medium-speed pax to get them everywhere else? 00:59:32 <drac_boy> and as for road haulages .. I'll copy the switzerland and usa concepts with some tweaks ... seperateable trailer loads that can interchange between rail for fixed point-to-point and road day tractors for directly-to-door delivery 00:59:58 <drac_boy> only a few trucks a day in the town and almost nothing on highway at all 00:59:59 <Pinkbeast> Certainly in Switzerland we still saw random mixed goods going by in the evenings - much more going by rail there. 01:00:57 <drac_boy> and as for medium-speed ... well if you're talking about a 90kmh distance ... that might still be covered by existing feeder tram unless you're out in the country 01:01:08 <Pinkbeast> And in big towns, cargo trams, please. Minimise road haulage to the absolute maximum degree. 01:01:09 <drac_boy> just saying 01:01:19 <drac_boy> and I don't really like city cargo trams tbh 01:01:25 <drac_boy> too much tracks for too few customers 01:01:34 <drac_boy> plus you run into the problem of not being able to use docks 01:01:44 <Pinkbeast> Er... I can think of another thing we could do with the tracks - pax trams! 01:02:09 <drac_boy> cargo trams only really work for industrial parks or out in the open country anyway 01:02:25 <Pinkbeast> Only because we allow lorry haulage to externalise costs. 01:02:33 <drac_boy> not really 01:02:39 <Kylie> uh 01:02:42 <Kylie> question 01:02:50 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 01:02:52 <Pinkbeast> If lorries paid the real cost of the pollution, road damage, and death they cause, cargo trams would be more attractive. 01:03:16 <Kylie> where is the setting to change whether trains reverse at the end of the line or at a station 01:03:16 <Kylie> ? 01:03:28 <drac_boy> try find a single tram design that can serve ramps .. and be able to eg remove a load from dock A then put a different load at dock B .. that means you need at least 3 or 4 tracks .. instead of only just a few feet of road surface and one single tractor 01:03:35 <Pinkbeast> Difficulty, I think, in the pre-game settings. But don't have it open. 01:04:14 <Kylie> Pinkbeast: that was it, thx 01:04:16 <Pinkbeast> drac: but no-one is suggesting, say, cargo movements internal to a factory would be done by tram. 01:05:07 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast you mean like eg from building 9 to building 17 on the same large property? 01:05:53 <Pinkbeast> I'm not totally convinced the cost of tram tracks around those buildings is so much compared to the cost of the buildings. 01:06:26 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast well it is tbh 01:07:06 <Pinkbeast> Not convinced. Leipzig's full of reversing loops kept around just in case, for example. They're not eating money. 01:08:00 <drac_boy> even some of these rails-designed industrial parks in usa before ... many closed because of all the extra cost in maintenaning rails when almost everything was already paved for the forklifts and shunter tractors to run with less scheduling+labour restrictions anyway 01:08:08 <Pinkbeast> And until road haulage pays for the costs it externalises, I don't see how we can work out what's cheaper. 01:09:00 <drac_boy> especially when an aged emission-smelly 900hp alco locomotive was sitting next to a much smaller modern cheap 200hp tractor -_- 01:09:36 <drac_boy> I only know of one single industrial railroad that wanted to buy into the new Green Goat locomotives so far yet 01:09:45 <Pinkbeast> But that ain't comparing like with like (in particular, a rail vehicle obviously doesn't need 4.5x the power to do the same job; it needs less). 01:09:56 <drac_boy> was done with some federal fund grant ... that suggests they costed a lot 01:10:11 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast actually .. 200hp is very little 01:10:24 <drac_boy> went to show why when the pavement already existed anyway many rails were pulled up 01:10:37 <Pinkbeast> OK... so what? If a 200hp tractor can do a job a <200hp rail vehicle can do the same job. 01:10:48 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast problem is no 200hp rail even exists at all 01:11:14 <drac_boy> even if you wanted to design a new one almost noone would even buy because of all the extra costs compared to the non-rail that already existed 01:11:29 <Pinkbeast> Stick the same engine on a chassis with railway wheels, job's done. Except really it would be electric. 01:11:30 <drac_boy> thats why the Yard Goat is so far only going to larger railroads for urban yards 01:11:34 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast: 01:11:38 <drac_boy> it doesn't work that way 01:12:03 <drac_boy> 200hp minus the emission regulations minus diesel-electric loss ... minus belt takeoff .. etc .. it comes to being rather crappy 01:12:36 <drac_boy> its not a surprise that the few rail/road hybrid tractors have a large engine but very low top speed compared to a normal road-only tractor 01:12:52 <Pinkbeast> No, look, rail is more efficient than road. That is the entire reason rail exists. It's a very fundamental fact that we've known since wagonways. 01:13:29 <Pinkbeast> If you deny that you have to explain why railways ever happened. 01:14:21 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast if that was the case then why is noone buying the rated-in-400hp-blocks modern diesel shunters for other tasks than yard and harbour works? 01:14:39 <drac_boy> clearly says something about the lack of road-shared industrial markets 01:15:01 <Pinkbeast> Uh, uh, one thing at a time. First you have to explain why railways were ever invented if they are not more power-efficient ways of moving cargo. 01:15:23 <Pinkbeast> Because apparently all the owners of the horse-drawn railways never noticed they were actually using more horses after laying all the rails? 01:17:41 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:51 <Pinkbeast> (Obviously you don't suppose that, but let's try and get down to why you suppose 200hp on rail can't move the same load as 200hp on road, one step at a time). 01:18:23 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 01:26:21 <drac_boy> 200hp minus small belt&clutch loss ... simple chassis (only a little more complicated if public roads gets involved).. small monthly insurance rate .. can hire almost any drivers for it. and now for rails .. 400hp minus 30+hp loss max .. hopefully FRA doesn't get too involved with its design (mainly adding more weight) .. having to retain engineers with the 8hr + min sleep laws .. and don't ask what rail insurance is 01:27:25 <drac_boy> is it no wonder almost noone can design a modern dmu for usa partially thanks to FRA (look at how much heavier the electrics got even although they technically did not even share track with freights) 01:27:49 <Pinkbeast> But once again you are not comparing like with like. 01:27:53 <drac_boy> a hat off to these rebuilt budd rdc's still running around (guess fra had their limit) 01:28:10 <Pinkbeast> In particular, you are proposing a situation where the more dangerous vehicles have a laxer regulatory regime,. 01:28:16 <drac_boy> its not laxer 01:28:24 <Pinkbeast> No wonder rail looks bad under those circumstances. 01:28:41 <drac_boy> one of the few things roads have to deal with is the thing called a logbook 01:28:46 <Pinkbeast> "can hire almost any drivers" vs. "having to retain engineers" certainly sounds laxer to me. 01:29:20 <Pinkbeast> And the idea that one has to have double the power on rail is still absurd. 01:29:24 <drac_boy> well if you took one city .. you'll find several thousand truck drivers .. but excluding working yards theres sometimes not much engineers 01:29:31 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast blame fra for some of that then 01:29:35 <Pinkbeast> The engine turns an axle. That's the same problem either way. 01:29:56 <Pinkbeast> And one needs less power on rail to move the same cargo. That's still a basic fact you're completely ignoring. 01:30:11 <drac_boy> then again .. a ge 44-tonner was always much heavier than a heavy haul road tractor ... even although its still a small loco 01:30:22 <Pinkbeast> Those whatever-they-are come in 400hp increments because rail can move much larger loads with one driver. 01:30:41 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast that doesn't help when you only have one or two container-sized loads to move at a time 01:31:11 <Pinkbeast> No, but it doesn't establish 400hp as some sort of magical minimum size for an engine that moves a rail vehicle. 01:31:37 <drac_boy> that was the main reason for the selling of gensets to yards ... so they could deal with different cuts 01:32:14 <drac_boy> its not magical btw 01:32:23 <Pinkbeast> And it's not real either. 01:32:27 <drac_boy> subtract the drive loss .. and add the much heavier chassis 01:32:35 <drac_boy> and there you go..thats why its hard to get smaller 01:32:46 <Pinkbeast> What drive losses? If it can turn an axle on road it can turn one on rails. 01:33:02 <Pinkbeast> Incidentally Leipzig's older pax trams are 230hp. Hard to go lower than 400? 01:33:35 <drac_boy> thats only because trams at least (to fra) don't even connect with standard trains so they can get away with the much more fragile chassis 01:33:59 <Pinkbeast> So once again you're proposing a laxer regulatory regime for more dangerous vehicles. 01:34:11 <Pinkbeast> That has little to do with what is fundamentally more efficient. 01:36:04 <Pinkbeast> Obviously if you have absurdly different construction requirements for rail, it looks worse. This is not news. But we started discussing how things would work in an ideal world; and in an ideal world, vehicles that can only strike another head-on when they derail, not whenever the driver dozes off, would be less crash-resistant. 01:37:33 <Pinkbeast> And furthermore a vehicle that doesn't have to carry its own power source will come out lighter. Why else trolley-busses? 01:38:34 <drac_boy> the funny thing is there was an article in this month's train magazine about japan rail operations and why we would never ever see it in usa. one of the few things they mentioned was the stricter labours including that point-and-call aspect 01:39:00 <drac_boy> I guess their strict timetabling is also a bit foreign to north america too 01:39:30 <drac_boy> although IC did have something partially similar for a while where trains were timetabled between initial and final yards 01:39:52 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-4-31.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:36 <drac_boy> btw Pinkbeast I'm not going to argue with you, trolleybuses are rather good idea that its kinda sad that many were killed off by this GE-funded 'corruption' in usa :/ at least several major cities still have them tho 01:40:58 *** pjpe [ae5f4731@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 01:41:09 *** pjpe [ae5f4731@ircip3.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 01:41:20 <Pinkbeast> Well, you _are_ arguing with me; particularly there's a fundamental point that if x HP can move load y tons on road, it can move >y tons on rail. This is why rail works at all. 01:41:35 <drac_boy> sometimes it was just for environment reason other times it had to do with the lack of diesel performance at the times (I recall at least one example where one city was all diesel except for one single college serving route which was right on a big hill...apparently diesels had problem there) 01:42:10 <drac_boy> I'm not too sold on the weird underground "tuberoad" system tho. forgot what its named now 02:48:14 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1242499104.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:17:32 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 03:27:07 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:e5af:7b37:f32d:41a0] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:49:29 *** pjpe [ae5f4731@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 03:50:21 *** pjpe [ae5f4731@ircip2.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 03:53:29 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:38:49 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-120-175.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 04:51:32 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6B4D7.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 04:58:29 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6BB64.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:30:27 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD448C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:30:42 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD46BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:33:23 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:41:42 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 05:49:11 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:51:35 *** Kylie [kvirc@CPE18593346e177-CM18593346e174.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 05:54:37 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 05:56:15 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@94.13.8.182] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:16:29 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 06:20:58 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 06:21:43 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-120-175.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:26:48 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-120-175.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 06:40:37 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 06:47:01 *** thomas001 [~chatzilla@ip-195-098-026-217.static.nextra.sk] has joined #openttd 06:51:15 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 06:56:30 *** thomas001 [~chatzilla@ip-195-098-026-217.static.nextra.sk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:02 <Supercheese> So, say I make a Newgrf using some sprites from the video game Caesar 3. Is there any license/any way I can share the grf, or is it stuck just for personal use? 06:57:35 *** mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:57:45 *** Goulp [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has quit [Quit: PACKET_CLIENT_QUIT] 06:57:51 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 07:01:23 <planetmaker> you'll have to ask the copyright holder of caesar 3. If you don't get their permission (or find a license in that game which allows usage of the graphics under *whatever* conditions): then it's personal use only 07:01:36 <Supercheese> hmm 07:01:44 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.75.97] has joined #openttd 07:01:56 <Supercheese> the company is since defunct 07:02:26 <Supercheese> copyright passed to lord knows who 07:02:57 <Supercheese> probably Activision, they're the mega-company 07:03:11 <planetmaker> ask them :-) 07:03:19 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-89-176-31-82.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 07:03:54 <planetmaker> some once tried with the ttd graphics... 07:04:41 <Elukka> they would never reply because in all likelihood they couldn't care less 07:06:02 <Elukka> it's not totally unheard of for game companies to let people use their assets but they probably barely even remember that casear 3 exists :P 07:06:52 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.74.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:07:42 <planetmaker> Elukka: those people *did* get a reply 07:08:29 <Elukka> well, i was talking about activision and caesar... 07:08:30 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.74.16] has joined #openttd 07:08:45 <Supercheese> Out of curiosity, if I hadn't asked and just made the grf, would anyone have noticed? :P 07:10:07 <planetmaker> Supercheese: likely yes. E.g. people also noticed that the luukland guys ripped of Heroes of Might and Magic and used their graphics in one or more newgrfs 07:10:17 <Supercheese> Yeah, I did notice that 07:10:31 <planetmaker> whether people care enough to make an issue of it... not sure :P 07:11:16 <Supercheese> Ugh, Activision has a flash-based website 07:11:20 <Supercheese> I hate flash pages 07:11:48 <planetmaker> flash... ancient technology :D 07:12:14 <Supercheese> Whoever thought that making the whole website a giant .swf should be exiled to Siberia or something 07:12:19 <Elukka> yes 07:12:24 <Supercheese> thought was a good thing* 07:12:30 <Supercheese> clause missing there 07:13:18 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.75.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:13:56 <Supercheese> Advertising? On Google default page?! 07:14:20 <planetmaker> yes 07:14:23 <Elukka> there is? 07:14:29 <planetmaker> yes 07:14:30 <Supercheese> First time I've seen it 07:14:33 <Supercheese> just now 07:14:46 <planetmaker> "don't be evil" was yesterday ;-) 07:15:17 <Elukka> i don't see any 07:15:19 <Elukka> with adblock or not 07:15:37 <Elukka> ads aren't evil, being a massive information spider that wants to know everything about you and where you move and what you do is... 07:15:46 <Supercheese> I have a very strict Adblock policy, yet the ads are there anyhow 07:16:14 <Elukka> weird 07:16:15 <Elukka> must be regional 07:16:16 <Supercheese> probably due to some wizardry with referrers, IP locations, user agents, OS, font families, etc 07:16:27 <Elukka> google test ads or actual banners? 07:16:29 <Supercheese> so damn many ways to identify ya on the inerweb 07:16:30 <Elukka> *text ads 07:17:48 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:31 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 07:18:39 <Supercheese> Looks like this: http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8471/72669674.png 07:18:52 <Supercheese> (hope that link works, dunno which quick imageuploader is best) 07:19:17 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-104-37.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 07:20:25 <Elukka> i see 07:22:21 <Supercheese> Oh wow, there's actually copyright information available from a public web catalog 07:22:26 <Supercheese> http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=6&ti=1,6&Search_Arg=Caesar%20III&Search_Code=TALL&CNT=25&PID=-0_k2FFkmd2K7Obm2jt4-0gaOppYe&SEQ=20120829024712&SID=3 07:22:44 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:24:33 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.74.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:28:01 <Supercheese> Is claiming fair use any good, or just throws more mud in the water? 07:28:04 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.64.195] has joined #openttd 07:31:37 *** mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 07:33:24 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-104-37.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:44:01 *** telanus [~telanus@196-210-244-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 07:45:39 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 07:56:20 <planetmaker> well, you then know whom to ask :-) 07:56:55 <Supercheese> Ohp, link timed out; kinda a moot point though because as I said the company is now defunct 07:57:20 <Supercheese> Anyway, fair use? Yes/no/we don't know but we'd rather you not? 07:59:45 <planetmaker> http://imagebin.org/226283 <-- that's really making *good* use of screen real estate. I wonder which web designers come up with this kind of crap 08:00:03 <Supercheese> Heh, I'm on that page too 08:00:40 <Supercheese> I'm considering grabbing a wikipedia request for permission boilerplate form and sending it off 08:00:52 <Supercheese> couldn't hurt 08:02:30 <Supercheese> the person who reads it will probably have never heard of Caesar 3, though :P 08:10:55 <planetmaker> but he might know whom to ask. that's the important thing 08:10:59 <Supercheese> aye 08:16:42 <NGC3982> Morning. 08:18:29 <Terkhen> good morning 08:18:37 <Supercheese> Salve 08:25:46 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:28:39 <Supercheese> Wait what 08:28:40 <Supercheese> http://sourceforge.net/projects/opencaesar3/ 08:28:46 <Supercheese> Open...Caesar3 08:29:35 <Supercheese> Just started earlier this year, too 08:30:09 <Elukka> oh no! looks like they're using graphics without permission! 08:30:16 <Elukka> :P 08:30:47 <Supercheese> I thought it was like OTTD, it requires you to have the original C3 data files 08:30:53 <Supercheese> and it doesn't provide those 08:31:02 <Supercheese> but I don't know for sure 08:31:04 <Elukka> ah 08:31:15 <Elukka> might be 08:31:18 <dihedral> hello 08:31:53 *** mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:06 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat-ulcn.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #openttd 08:33:49 <Supercheese> "The install procedure generates the pics*.zip archives and other resources from the original caesar3 CD." 08:33:54 <Supercheese> Yeah you need the game data 08:36:35 *** mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 08:40:13 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:41:58 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:42:35 <SpComb> LLVM-compiled OpenTTD C++ in Javascript actually runs? Oo 08:47:23 *** Netsplit oxygen.oftc.net <-> resistance.oftc.net quits: Sacro, NataS, telanus, luckz, TWerkhoven, @DorpsGek, guru3, Rubidium, CornishPasty, lugo, (+82 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 08:54:06 *** Netsplit over, joins: tparker, Pulec, SpComb^, Phazorx, snorre, Mazur, __ln__, gynter, Noldo, guru3 (+12 more) 08:54:06 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-158-32.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 08:54:06 *** Netsplit over, joins: Devroush, telanus, LordPixaII, Zeknurn, sla_ro|master, Elukka, namad7, HerzogDeXtEr, tycoondemon, APTX_ (+14 more) 08:54:06 *** ServerMode/#openttd [+vo tokai|noir peter1138] by synthon.oftc.net 08:54:12 *** Netsplit over, joins: @orudge, @planetmaker, tneo, @Terkhen, XeryusTC, masch, V453000, dihedral, TrueBrain, Fremen (+35 more) 08:54:59 *** Netsplit over, joins: confound 08:58:05 *** Netsplit oxygen.oftc.net <-> resistance.oftc.net quits: Sacro, NataS, telanus, @DorpsGek, TWerkhoven, luckz, szaman, guru3, Vadtec, Rubidium, (+83 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 09:04:09 *** Netsplit over, joins: @orudge, lobster, V453000, XeryusTC, GoneWacko, SpComb, George, KenjiE20, jonty-comp, Sacro (+82 more) 09:04:09 *** chester_ [~chester@95-27-103-36.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 09:04:09 *** ServerMode/#openttd [+ov peter1138 tokai|noir] by resistance.oftc.net 09:04:11 *** Netsplit over, joins: confound 09:04:53 <SpComb> oh... it's that old? :P 09:05:47 <SpComb> irclogs.qmsk.net tells me that 2012-07-03 09:08:33 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:08:47 <planetmaker> jo 09:09:37 <planetmaker> hm, what's this increased netsplit frequency as of recently? 09:12:40 *** Netsplit oxygen.oftc.net <-> resistance.oftc.net quits: Sacro, NataS, telanus, @DorpsGek, luckz, TWerkhoven, guru3, Vadtec, CornishPasty, szaman, (+83 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 09:13:53 *** Netsplit over, joins: @orudge, lobster, V453000, XeryusTC, GoneWacko, SpComb, George, KenjiE20, jonty-comp, Sacro (+83 more) 09:15:06 <Terkhen> evil hackers 09:17:46 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:27 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 09:19:34 *** Netsplit over, joins: @orudge, Zeknurn, confound, chester_, tparker, Pulec, SpComb^, Phazorx, snorre, Mazur (+83 more) 09:35:04 *** confound_ [~hdp@glaive.weftsoar.net] has joined #openttd 09:36:40 *** confound [~hdp@glaive.weftsoar.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:40:39 *** George|2 [~George@83.136.241.246] has joined #openttd 09:40:39 *** George is now known as Guest4860 09:40:39 *** George|2 is now known as George 09:45:59 *** Guest4860 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:55:20 *** confound [~hdp@glaive.weftsoar.net] has joined #openttd 09:56:45 *** confound_ [~hdp@glaive.weftsoar.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:58:05 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-40-46.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 10:07:57 *** confound [~hdp@glaive.weftsoar.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:13:54 *** confound [~hdp@glaive.weftsoar.net] has joined #openttd 10:20:30 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d820842.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:37:38 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 10:49:53 *** mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:08 *** drush [~drush@93-94-245-76.dynamic.swissvpn.net] has joined #openttd 11:11:02 *** bolli [~Sam@222.160.17.46.bridgep.com] has joined #openttd 11:13:04 *** bolli [~Sam@222.160.17.46.bridgep.com] has quit [] 11:15:01 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:41:10 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:42:15 *** bolli [~Sam@222.160.17.46.bridgep.com] has joined #openttd 11:45:30 *** George is now known as Guest4869 11:45:34 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 11:48:05 *** mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 11:52:17 *** Guest4869 [~George@83.136.241.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:53:53 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:55:10 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 11:56:19 *** George is now known as Guest4872 11:56:23 *** George [~George@83.136.241.246] has joined #openttd 12:00:43 *** Guest4872 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:10:34 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:30:40 *** telanus [~telanus@196-210-244-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:35:46 *** KritiK [~Maxim@37-144-43-207.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:35:57 *** Elu [Elukka@78-27-120-175.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:36:59 *** bob [56aff37f@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 12:37:09 <bob> hi 12:37:19 <NGC3982> Terrorism. 12:37:40 *** bob [56aff37f@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [] 12:37:42 <NGC3982> Or a possible glitch in the Matrix. 12:42:43 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-120-175.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:42:55 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 12:44:47 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:57:46 *** KritiK [~Maxim@37-144-43-207.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:03:45 <Fremen> trams are fun 13:03:59 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 13:04:32 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:10:22 *** KritiK [~Maxim@37-144-43-207.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 13:13:16 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 13:16:38 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:29:16 *** Elu is now known as Elukka 13:33:35 <Asteconn> Trams are fun 13:33:49 <Asteconn> With the addedbonus of not needing signals 13:34:27 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-99-79.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 13:34:54 <Fremen> and you can make them to turnarounds with 1 extra square unlike busses 13:35:10 <Fremen> who need a trip around the block sometimes :) 13:35:59 <Fremen> which* 13:38:50 <Fremen> I'm just looking for better tram rails graphics 13:39:03 <Fremen> it's ugly, too many poles 13:39:23 <Fremen> or too big 13:39:37 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-16-203.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:47:08 <Elukka> i haven't yet found a a tram set that'd fit well with Long Vehicles... and i haven't found any road vehicle set i'd like better than it 13:47:38 <Elukka> fit as in both visually and balance-wise 13:54:38 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:32:27 <Belugas> hello 13:41:33 <Terkhen> hi Belugas 13:43:19 <Belugas> sir Terkhen :) 13:49:16 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-40-46.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:51:48 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 14:14:24 *** KritiK [~Maxim@37-144-43-207.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:15:17 *** KritiK [~Maxim@37-144-43-207.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 14:20:16 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat-ulcn.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:26:49 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:26:55 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 14:33:16 *** Fawksie [~Fawksie@hertz.fewlishfox.co.uk] has quit [Server closed connection] 14:33:33 *** Fawksie [~Fawksie@hertz.fewlishfox.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:34:00 *** Fawksie is now known as Guest4888 15:01:17 *** Warod [warod@lakka.kapsi.fi] has quit [Server closed connection] 15:01:18 *** Warod [warod@lakka.kapsi.fi] has joined #openttd 15:05:17 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 15:05:28 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 15:30:31 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@94.13.8.182] has joined #openttd 15:32:54 *** SpBot [spbot@skrblz.fixme.fi] has joined #openttd 15:34:39 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd 15:34:43 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 15:35:16 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has quit [Server closed connection] 15:35:18 <Alberth> hi hi 15:35:32 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has joined #openttd 15:35:35 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 15:36:14 <Alberth> wb sir B 15:41:45 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.10.233] has joined #openttd 15:44:24 <Terkhen> hi Alberth 15:44:33 <Alberth> hi Terkhen 15:45:06 <planetmaker> hi Alberth 15:45:20 <Alberth> hi too :) 15:52:00 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d00850b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:52:41 <planetmaker> quak 15:53:39 <Alberth> quek 15:53:44 <frosch123> moin :) 15:53:57 <frosch123> i don't highlight on quek 15:54:04 <frosch123> is that dutch? 15:54:19 <Alberth> no, it's just different from quak 15:54:25 <NGC3982> quark. 15:55:44 *** Zuu [~chatzilla@109.58.147.85.bredband.tre.se] has joined #openttd 15:55:55 <Alberth> hi Zuu 15:56:00 <Zuu> Hello Alberth 15:56:06 <Zuu> and all :-) 15:56:21 <NGC3982> Greetings. 15:56:46 <planetmaker> hi Zuu 16:02:16 *** Rawh_ [rawh@lennardk2.student.utwente.nl] has quit [Server closed connection] 16:02:18 *** Rawh [rawh@lennardk2.student.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 16:08:55 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-008-149.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 16:21:55 <Zuu> Lovely, there is not a single open feature request for NoGo/GS on FlySpray. 16:22:11 <planetmaker> you want some? :D 16:22:30 *** Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@yoda.zernebok.com] has quit [Server closed connection] 16:22:33 *** Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@yoda.zernebok.com] has joined #openttd 16:23:31 <Zuu> planetmaker: Actually yes. It would be nice to know what potential GS writers think is missing. 16:24:00 <Rubidium> obviously city builder implementations to rip off 16:25:00 <Zuu> Given that I've written 5 out of 7 GS on FS, the interest to write GS (apart from me) doesn't seem so high? 16:25:31 <planetmaker> Zuu: I simply think - as with the admin port - even people who write GS are not necessarily willing to share their results 16:25:58 <planetmaker> Both, admin port and GS are server-side "features" and can be used to make the own server moar awesoooohm 16:25:59 <Zuu> I never played the city builder so I don't know what it includes that cannot be implemented with current GS. 16:26:35 <planetmaker> I don't know either what "they" did 16:27:38 <planetmaker> Zuu: what I'd consider nice - but would require both, admin and GS, is indeed something like an exemplary citybuilder with a step-wise appraoch on the GS side: 16:29:03 <planetmaker> primary goal: grow city to > 50k with the limitations like "no growth beyond 1k, if no coal; no growth beyond 2.5k if no food; no growth beyond 8k if no sawmill; no growth beyond 12k, if no refinery, no growth beyond 15k, if not 5k goods 16:29:05 <planetmaker> or similar 16:29:26 <planetmaker> and the results being stored in a server-side DB, so that highscores can be gathered 16:29:40 <planetmaker> btw, I'm missing a NoCarGoal repo :D 16:30:01 <Zuu> The GS part does look like it can be implemented with the 1.3 API 16:30:22 <Zuu> Yes, NoCarGoal repo needs to be created. :-) 16:33:13 <Terkhen> I agree with planetmaker; we have heard of people who are keeping their work to themselves so I can only assume that many more are keeping it and not coming to the chat to talk about it 16:33:21 <Terkhen> the result is; no feedback and no visible results for these features 16:33:25 <Terkhen> which is kind of dissapointing 16:33:34 <planetmaker> ^^ 16:33:45 <Zuu> Although you can only get the GUI "for free" if your growth cargos are specified as cargo classes rather than specific cargos. 16:34:10 <planetmaker> can't I specify specific cargos? 16:34:14 <planetmaker> by cargo label? 16:34:36 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 16:34:36 <Zuu> You can monitor specific cargos and use the raw town growth API. 16:34:37 <planetmaker> or what you mean by "for free" 16:36:48 <Zuu> But if you use a cargo with a town effect you can use GSTown::SetCargoGoal. Then OpenTTD will include information about the goal in the town window without any additional work for the GS author. 16:37:42 <Zuu> SetCargoGoal: http://nogo.openttd.org/api/trunk/classGSTown.html#9c1bb45326c08171fe1fd7c8e2f70ec0 16:38:42 <Zuu> Neighbours are important use the SetCargoGoal approach. 16:39:09 <planetmaker> Can a GS check for the presence of a specific label? 16:39:55 <Zuu> As in if there is a cargo with "OIL_" label? 16:40:50 <Zuu> You could loop through GSCargoList and call GSCargo::GetCargoLabel() for each cargo and compare against the value you want to check for. 16:42:50 <planetmaker> yes, like that 16:42:57 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:39 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 16:44:52 *** Arendtsen [arendtsen@tux.nerdheaven.dk] has quit [Server closed connection] 16:44:54 *** Arendtsen [arendtsen@tux.nerdheaven.dk] has joined #openttd 16:45:20 <Zuu> planetmaker: Oh I see you have now commented the CB thread and asked for clarification on what parts they miss in GS. 16:46:21 <planetmaker> yes... I was evil 16:46:45 *** bolli [~Sam@222.160.17.46.bridgep.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:31 <Terkhen> as usual lately :P 16:49:04 <planetmaker> maybe I just shouldn't post. As suggested by those whiners ;-) 16:49:38 <Zuu> I don't think that post about CB is that evil. 16:50:03 <Terkhen> it isn't, I was trolling :P 16:50:12 <planetmaker> it's not friendly either ;-) 16:50:16 <Terkhen> I have seen other posts by Honza saying the same thing 16:50:24 <planetmaker> yeah ^^ that's why 16:50:50 <Terkhen> and IIRC the same question was asked 16:50:55 <Terkhen> I don't know if it was answered, though 16:51:25 <planetmaker> I don't either really. Didn't search 16:51:29 <Zuu> At least the answer was not added to FS in the script category. 16:51:59 <planetmaker> nope 16:52:58 <Terkhen> let's hope for a constructive debate, I could use one after that change newgrfs thread :) 16:53:43 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-89-176-31-82.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:54:19 <Zuu> Yeah, lets hope :-) 17:07:18 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:4881:6e86:44e8:9595] has joined #openttd 17:07:21 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:08:07 *** dotwaffle [~dotwaffle@on6.co.uk] has quit [Server closed connection] 17:08:16 *** Runner11 [~KByte@c-24-20-56-126.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 17:08:42 *** dotwaffle [~dotwaffle@on6.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:20:52 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Server closed connection] 17:21:04 *** SmatZ [~smatz@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 17:23:16 *** NGC3982 [appe@noskapin.krot.se] has quit [Server closed connection] 17:23:17 *** NGC3982 [appe@noskapin.krot.se] has joined #openttd 17:24:37 <Zuu> If GS get to control the company performance, it may be an idea that it can register sub performance items that show up in the details window. 17:25:22 <Zuu> Maybe even it should be made so that OpenTTD compute the total based on the sub items rather than exposing the control over the total to GS. 17:26:49 <Yexo> so GS would provide a list of items where you can score points (incl. max number of points) and the number of points for each company, openttd computes total and makes a nice display? 17:27:09 <Zuu> Yes that is my idea 17:27:49 <Zuu> If a GS provide a such list, that would replace the default performance table and the GS would take over control over the company league table. 17:28:55 <Yexo> sounds like a good alternative to the current goal list 17:29:07 <Zuu> My guess is that the items need to be saved into the save game format. 17:29:52 <NGC3982> Did something happend to my client? 17:30:40 <Zuu> Although the current goal list doesn't provide a way to show the status of other companies in a MP game or hooking into the performance graph. 17:32:10 <Zuu> I don't really think the goal list and the league table exactly duplicate each other, but they will tangent each other if GS get to control the league table. 17:32:40 <Zuu> The legue table is not really good for displaying lengthy goal texts. 17:33:15 <Zuu> s/legue table/detailed performance rating/ 17:33:53 <Alberth> allow for scores in the goal window? 17:34:26 <Alberth> ie currently it is 'not reached', allow an percentage instead 17:35:24 <Alberth> perhaps replacing the detailed performance rating window??? 17:35:52 *** blathijs [matthijs@drsnuggles.stderr.nl] has quit [Server closed connection] 17:35:55 *** blathijs [matthijs@drsnuggles.stderr.nl] has joined #openttd 17:36:30 <Zuu> An alternative approach is of course to try to extend the goal window and leave the performance windows as is. 17:37:05 <Alberth> I like the idea of treating the current contents as a sort of default goal 17:37:06 <Zuu> A nice thing with the performance window is that it got a clear button in the main toolbar while goals are well hidden. 17:37:50 <Alberth> (current contents of the performance window) 17:40:40 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Server closed connection] 17:41:04 *** avdg [~avdg@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 17:43:06 <Zuu> Taking NoCarGoal as an example, I think I would set the detail performance items there to cargo delivery of the three cargos. 17:43:18 <Zuu> Eg 300 for each cargo and 100 for having a HQ or something else silly :-) 17:45:21 <Zuu> Then the goal window would be the point where each player find information about the global goals and company specific goals. The (detailed) performance window would be the place to check out the progress for all companies. 17:45:57 <Zuu> Instead of needing to make the GS spam progress news. 17:46:51 *** Guest4888 is now known as Fawksie 17:46:55 <Zuu> Not sure if GSs should be allowed to configure different progress items for different companies. 17:47:38 <Zuu> Maybe it is not really correct to use the detailed performance window for this. Maybe it is better to extend the goal window instead to provide this information. 17:54:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:00:30 <Yexo> maybe the goal window should get buttons to select all companies so you can view other companies' goals 18:01:21 <Alberth> hidden goals can be fun ;) 18:03:23 <Zuu> I'm thinking that we maybe should add so that when a goal is completed you can mark it completed rather than erasing it. 18:04:03 <Zuu> Then we can register a goal_id as a requirement for a town to grow (at all or past XYZ inhabitants) 18:04:33 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 18:05:11 <Alberth> sort of with the active subsidies. Makes sense 18:05:26 <Zuu> The Town GUI can then display blocking goals and town growth can be held back without requiring the GS to make raw changes of town growth which is only half-way supported. 18:06:30 <andythenorth> I didn't play much with it, but town growth hasn't really convinced me for GS :) 18:06:36 * Zuu thinks about creating a wiki article to add ideas too. 18:06:50 <andythenorth> Zuu: pub / sub (event subscriber) system? 18:06:55 <andythenorth> GS publishes goal status :P 18:07:09 <andythenorth> GS can register subscribers on towns 18:07:12 <andythenorth> maybe industries :P 18:07:26 <andythenorth> probably overkill 18:07:34 * andythenorth suggests pub-sub for everything recently 18:07:52 * Zuu is lost with the pub-sub idea 18:08:05 <andythenorth> probably stupid 18:08:09 <andythenorth> ignore it 18:08:33 * Alberth subs to andy 18:10:38 <Alberth> Zuu: pub-sub means that events are sent to subcribed parties only. If you want to know about something, you have to subscribe 18:12:15 * andythenorth has some random thoughts again, I'll dump here, you can ignore :P 18:12:31 <andythenorth> - we know GS is good for goal-driven stuff like cargo goal 18:12:41 <andythenorth> - we know GS is bad for detailed control of town / newgrf etc 18:13:05 <andythenorth> we've tested the first now, and the second is true by design (currently anyway, and nobody dares change it) 18:13:13 * Alberth nods 18:13:13 <andythenorth> I think some middle layer is missing - economy 18:13:30 <andythenorth> town control, industry control, cargo availability, cargo payment rates, and possibly base costs 18:13:40 <andythenorth> no idea how to do it 18:13:55 <Alberth> I'd count it in with GS 18:14:05 <andythenorth> but there's probably no way around getting GS authors and newgrf authors to agree on common interface 18:14:14 <andythenorth> we had to do it with cargos, and it has actually worked 18:14:25 <andythenorth> despite pain, cargo classes and labels work brilliantly 18:14:46 <andythenorth> it's a bit like IEEE standards or W3C, it's incredibly painful, but ultimately the standards are agreed and work 18:14:55 <Alberth> I am not sure whether GS and newgrf should interface directly 18:15:29 <Alberth> although it may be simpler when they do 18:15:31 <andythenorth> either they do it by values in registers 18:15:34 <andythenorth> or by cbs via openttd which GS can call and newgrf can handle 18:15:52 <andythenorth> or by some published list of GS goal classes, current status etc 18:16:46 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host228-221-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:16:53 <Alberth> hi Wolf01 18:16:56 <Wolf01> hi 18:17:04 <andythenorth> I don't have an answer, obviously :P 18:17:49 <Alberth> I sort of see GS as a layer above openttd 18:18:03 <Alberth> newgrf has knobs controlled by openttd 18:18:12 <Alberth> openttd has knobs controlled by GS 18:18:41 <Alberth> except the number of openttd knobs is about 0 :) 18:18:47 <Alberth> currently 18:19:04 <andythenorth> +1 18:19:07 <andythenorth> stack diagram :P 18:19:22 <Alberth> that way, GS can continue to think at high level, and let openttd do the work 18:21:22 <Alberth> for industry I can imagine a GS saying 'more production of X' or 'less industries' 18:21:38 <Alberth> although it may collide with the newgrf ideas :( 18:22:47 <Alberth> but eg for default industries it would work, I think 18:23:26 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3204/GS-OpenTTD-NewGRF.png 18:24:39 <andythenorth> cb29 / 35 should be able to either hint to newgrf (meh), or just be over-ridden by GS 18:24:49 <andythenorth> (production change) 18:25:04 <andythenorth> newgrfs should be able to provide ideas for industries GS doesn't care about 18:25:15 <andythenorth> but GS should be able to over-ride where necessary 18:25:16 <andythenorth> maybe 18:25:29 <Zuu> I've created https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/GS_Ideas 18:25:31 * andythenorth considers FIRS 2 :P 18:26:00 * andythenorth tries to figure wtf industries would need for a common interface 18:26:37 <andythenorth> industry open / close is a NoConomy thing and should be fixed even without GS 18:26:38 <Zuu> andythenorth: Agreed regarding production change. 18:26:41 <andythenorth> then expose it to GS for control 18:27:01 <andythenorth> default game should be better than current for industries 18:27:07 <andythenorth> without any need to load a GS 18:27:15 <andythenorth> GS will be better if simple like NoCarGoal 18:27:24 <andythenorth> big complicated things are a headache 18:27:53 <andythenorth> I can forsee an interface designed for someone to code a GS featuring 'entire history of world for train fans' 18:28:01 <andythenorth> which will just be a source of breakage and whining for years 18:28:12 <andythenorth> just say no to that :P 18:29:02 <andythenorth> semantics, but are they Game Scripts or Goal Scripts? 18:30:17 <Alberth> 'game' 18:30:41 <Zuu> A GS can do other things than providing just goals. 18:30:52 <andythenorth> do we care? is it interesting? 18:31:05 <andythenorth> e.g. is the GS for the tutorial just a nice hack? 18:31:09 <Zuu> For example implementing the beginner tutorial 18:31:10 <andythenorth> or is that what GS is intended for? 18:31:17 <Alberth> but western people desperately need goals to achieve ;) 18:31:21 <Zuu> I think TB had it in mind. 18:31:35 <andythenorth> I am very goal driven 18:31:38 <andythenorth> I tried not being :P 18:31:39 <andythenorth> boring 18:32:16 <andythenorth> they're actually objectives, but nvm http://www.diffen.com/difference/Goal_vs_Objective 18:32:33 <Rubidium> but isn't the goal to make objectives? 18:32:37 <andythenorth> ha 18:32:52 *** Markk [mark@metamfetam.in] has quit [Server closed connection] 18:32:56 *** Markk [mark@metamfetam.in] has joined #openttd 18:32:58 <Rubidium> and working on that goal should be fun, and what's more fun than a game? 18:33:05 <andythenorth> making a game :) 18:33:27 <andythenorth> ok so semantics are boring as usual :P 18:35:09 * andythenorth looks for a thread to troll instead 18:35:27 <Rubidium> maybe you can troll the sysadmin at work 18:35:32 <Rubidium> or maybe I should tomorrow 18:36:18 <andythenorth> don't poke the bofh 18:36:19 <Rubidium> ... by making a ticket that Outlook's agenda doesn't work 18:36:28 <andythenorth> wtf is this pipes thread? 18:36:57 <Rubidium> andythenorth: at the moment I can be a real bastard from hell for the sysadmin 18:37:13 <andythenorth> he 18:37:23 <andythenorth> what if he makes you do the sysadmin instead? :P 18:37:25 <andythenorth> then you lose 18:38:17 <Rubidium> I'd reckon I'm way too expensive for that position 18:39:04 <SpComb> tsk 18:39:34 <andythenorth> ooops 18:39:38 <andythenorth> went in the suggestions forum 18:39:38 <SpComb> sysadmins are highly trained professionals that have many years of experience! 18:39:59 <Rubidium> ... in avoiding contact with anyone via any means 18:40:47 <Rubidium> which includes the sales rep of vmware for buying the ESXI license, or the sales rep of whatever stuff you need to make backups 18:41:28 <andythenorth> sysadmins buy stuff? :o 18:41:41 <Rubidium> apparantly not 18:41:50 <SpComb> sysadmins do a lot of integration and maintenance work on complex systems which require a wide area of understanding and lots of forethought! 18:42:20 <SpComb> developers just play in their own sandbox and don't have to care about anything outside of their own project :< 18:42:36 <Rubidium> ... so they leave it to the programmer to choose the hardware and software for the database server 18:43:34 <andythenorth> https://twitter.com/DEVOPS_BORAT/status/235161966480588800 18:44:08 <SpComb> yes, listen to that devops guy 18:44:49 * andythenorth refuses to hire a sysadmin mostly 18:45:31 <andythenorth> can't find anything to validly troll 18:45:38 <Rubidium> SpComb: anyway, by what you have said I must classify the person the is supposed to be the sysadmin at my work to be not a sysadmin 18:45:47 <andythenorth> lots of stupidity, but nothing more stupid than me on an average day :( 18:46:30 <andythenorth> one day it would be fun to list all the made up reasons towns grow 18:46:31 <Rubidium> as integration and maintenance are not in his vocabulary 18:49:52 <Rubidium> on the other hand, he must be doing lots of forethought. Like a week ago he asked me whether I had time for some meeting with him (we're moving building and he doesn't know anything about basically anything concerning databases), and he wanted it that week. So I said, send me a meeting request for a moment you have time. I'm still waiting for that 18:50:03 <Rubidium> so he is still pondering it 18:50:36 <Rubidium> he is probably also pondering for two months whether something is finished or not (two months ago it was almost finished), and it's merely an installation of Windows 18:53:44 <Alberth> busy all day with emergencies? 18:55:29 <Rubidium> I doubt it 18:55:44 *** Progman [~progman@87.161.142.229] has joined #openttd 18:57:08 <andythenorth> ^ this 18:57:14 <andythenorth> is why I can't work for other people 18:57:18 <andythenorth> and had to become the man 18:57:27 <andythenorth> and have people working for the man 18:57:36 * andythenorth is a capitalist exploiter 18:57:40 <NGC3982> .. 18:58:04 *** bb10X [~bb10@bb10x.org] has quit [Server closed connection] 18:58:06 *** bb10 [~bb10@bb10x.org] has joined #openttd 18:58:23 *** Zuu [~chatzilla@109.58.147.85.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:58:55 <Rubidium> Alberth: or his concept of emergency is skewed 19:00:22 <Rubidium> but I reckon a disk screaming through it's SMART that it is broken (with random database corruptions) is something that has quite some urgency 19:00:30 <Rubidium> s/'// 19:02:02 <Rubidium> similarly I'd reckon fixing/making a regular backup of the database server that contains a significant amount of the core business data is somewhat urgent as well 19:02:54 <NGC3982> Ah. 19:02:59 <Rubidium> but then I might be a really bad sysadmin 19:03:05 <NGC3982> Yes, the bewildered nature of hard drive ambient noise. 19:03:06 <Rubidium> if I were to be one 19:03:26 <andythenorth> I would be very bored if I was a sysadmin 19:03:30 <andythenorth> I hate computers :) 19:03:36 <NGC3982> I noticed an old server SCSI-drive at work made an almost perfect A-tone while browsing in thumbnails. 19:03:48 <andythenorth> bah 19:03:56 <andythenorth> I've got a zombie varnish instance running 19:04:01 <andythenorth> how do I ps to find the fucker? 19:04:37 <Rubidium> ps|grep varnish? 19:04:38 <NGC3982> T'was like bosoms covered in roses and chocolate. 19:05:36 <andythenorth> apparently no varnish process 19:05:41 <andythenorth> yet it's serving me errors quite happil 19:05:56 <Rubidium> netstat -lpn|grep <port> 19:06:34 *** Runner11 [~KByte@c-24-20-56-126.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:07:27 <andythenorth> no netstat :( 19:07:34 * andythenorth googles 19:07:59 <Rubidium> what? 19:08:06 <Rubidium> no netstat? What kind OS is that? 19:08:41 <Rubidium> or maybe they removed it from Mac OS X because it has no fancy user interface 19:08:49 <andythenorth> not in macports either :( 19:09:09 <andythenorth> found it with ps ax | grep varnish 19:09:27 <SpComb> ps auxf 19:09:38 <Rubidium> under Network Utility there's a Netstat tab (or so wikipedia says) 19:09:50 <SpComb> every sysadmin has their own ps-incantation that they use 19:09:55 <SpComb> for me, it's `ps aux` 19:09:59 <andythenorth> oh yeah there's a GUI netstat 19:10:03 * andythenorth tries to avoid the GUI 19:10:14 <andythenorth> the gui is for Twitter and email 19:10:21 <Alberth> at a mac? good luck :) 19:10:21 <SpComb> cat /proc/net/tcp 19:10:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: most stuff is in terminal as god intended 19:10:57 <andythenorth> except drawing and crap like that 19:11:23 <andythenorth> it has a crappy port manager too 19:11:28 <andythenorth> but I didn't pay for that I guess :P 19:18:27 <frosch123> night 19:18:29 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d00850b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:14 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-120-175.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 19:22:18 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd [] 19:26:41 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d820842.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 19:32:50 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d820842.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 19:35:26 <Belugas> i am sooooo bored.... log analysis and update deployment... I should not get near forums! 19:36:01 <Asteconn> :P 19:37:39 *** drush [~drush@93-94-245-76.dynamic.swissvpn.net] has quit [Quit: Wychodzi] 19:39:42 <andythenorth> Belugas: nothing there anyway 19:39:51 * andythenorth has broken CK Editor 19:39:53 <andythenorth> which is bad 19:39:57 <andythenorth> time for pub 19:41:21 <Belugas> pub? or tub? 19:41:42 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Server closed connection] 19:41:47 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:42:17 <andythenorth> pub 19:46:07 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 19:46:14 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Server closed connection] 19:46:25 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 19:46:58 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:49:06 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 19:49:47 *** murr4y [murray@kvikshaug.no] has quit [Server closed connection] 19:50:22 *** murr4y [murray@kvikshaug.no] has joined #openttd 19:51:05 <Asteconn> Is ther eany quick wa 19:51:09 <Asteconn> dern it 19:51:32 <Asteconn> Is there any quick way to change all of my vehicles service intervals from 150% to 15% at once? 19:54:36 <NGC3982> I would like to know that too. 20:06:40 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-99-79.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:07:24 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.78.58] has joined #openttd 20:07:47 *** szaman [szaman@merkury.cenzor.pl] has quit [Server closed connection] 20:07:50 *** szaman [szaman@merkury.cenzor.pl] has joined #openttd 20:08:35 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has quit [Server closed connection] 20:08:39 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 20:11:33 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.64.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:23:30 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-008-149.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 20:28:59 *** KingJ [~KingJ-OFT@95.154.197.17] has quit [Server closed connection] 20:30:22 *** KingJ [~KingJ-OFT@95.154.197.17] has joined #openttd 20:40:19 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus] 20:50:09 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:53:40 <Asteconn> God damn this is taking forever ;____; 21:07:20 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: keoz] 21:11:13 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 21:13:30 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:16:59 *** GoneWacko [~gonewacko@524A7DE2.cm-4-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Server closed connection] 21:17:10 *** GoneWacko [~gonewacko@524A7DE2.cm-4-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 21:22:59 *** Osai [~Osai@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Server closed connection] 21:23:23 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Server closed connection] 21:23:41 *** Osai [~Osai@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 21:23:41 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 21:23:44 *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ 21:23:47 *** tneo [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Server closed connection] 21:24:11 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Server closed connection] 21:24:11 *** tneo [~tneo@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 21:24:35 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Server closed connection] 21:24:41 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 21:24:44 *** mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ 21:25:11 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 21:28:58 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:29:47 *** masch [~quassel@big.masch.it] has quit [Server closed connection] 21:29:47 *** Progman [~progman@87.161.142.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:48 *** masch [~quassel@big.masch.it] has joined #openttd 21:33:20 <Terkhen> good night 21:37:31 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: keoz] 21:38:13 <Asteconn> Finally done 21:38:17 <Asteconn> 265 trains D: 21:40:43 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 21:48:52 <Wolf01> 'night 21:48:56 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host228-221-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:55:01 <NGC3982> What was the name of that truck GRF with lots of big trucks and heavy stuff? 21:55:56 <NGC3982> Ah, HEQS 22:07:35 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6B4D7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:38 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6B4D7.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 22:11:28 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.80.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:25:12 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.10.233] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 22:29:58 *** chester_ [~chester@95-27-103-36.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:35 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Server closed connection] 23:09:16 *** V453000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 23:09:53 *** keoz [~keikoz@142.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: keoz] 23:18:15 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:26:11 *** DASPRiD [~dasprid@HSI-KBW-085-216-120-003.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #openttd 23:30:12 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-95-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 23:35:51 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-105-133.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:36:14 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:27 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-213-34-239-49.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 23:40:51 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:55:24 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit []