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00:08:38 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:18:53 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19596.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:14 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 00:50:38 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:52:09 *** rails [cavejohnso@p6-5756-e20e.10m.i.exo.me.uk] has quit [Quit: ExoBNC - Free IRC Bouncers on demand - #Exonation] 01:07:19 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0/20120824154833]] 01:17:58 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 01:23:30 *** dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:24:21 *** dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has joined #openttd 01:36:37 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-40-46.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 02:02:04 *** mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:48:04 *** heihei [54302920@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 02:48:12 <heihei> hi 02:48:21 <heihei> anyone know a good city server? 02:50:58 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-40-46.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:51:21 <heihei> Luukland is no more? 02:56:48 <Supercheese> Hmm, the forums are giving me a 500 - Internal Server Error 03:00:13 <heihei> me2 03:24:09 *** heihei [54302920@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 03:38:06 *** Squire [52081a66@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 03:51:07 *** lobster [~lobster@glosoli.owenrudge.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:12:26 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:45c3:cb5:d28a:19ec] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:18:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D8F9.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 04:24:10 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6B686.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:40:55 *** lobster [~lobster@glosoli.owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5DB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:56:20 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC66D72.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:24:37 <Supercheese> Forums still down... :S 05:24:53 <Rubidium> orudge: ^ 05:28:02 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 05:32:50 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:34:29 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-158-32.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 06:02:18 *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:9c76:49bd:c9d1:9268] has joined #openttd 06:03:50 *** NataS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 06:04:00 *** FlyingFoXy [~quassel@sanktwendel.weh.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #openttd 06:05:41 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 06:06:08 *** V4530000 [~V453000@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 06:06:27 *** Netsplit reticulum.oftc.net <-> oxygen.oftc.net quits: Phazorx, tparker, V453000, FlyingFoX, Nat_aS, namad7 06:06:27 *** V4530000 is now known as V453000 06:06:42 *** Netsplit over, joins: tparker 06:06:50 *** Netsplit over, joins: Phazorx 06:08:41 *** namad7 [aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 06:20:40 <andythenorth> no forums :P 06:25:06 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-120-175.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 06:26:55 *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:9c76:49bd:c9d1:9268] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:35:00 <planetmaker> moin 06:35:22 <planetmaker> yeah... just noticed. What do I now read during breakfast :P 06:35:28 <Supercheese> I know, so strange 06:35:49 <Supercheese> Well, I'm actually playing OTTD, so it's all good 06:35:58 <planetmaker> and no new questionablecontent today either... 06:36:33 <Supercheese> Didn't think it updated on Sundays? 06:36:40 *** kamnet [4cb15be2@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 06:36:51 <planetmaker> Monday through Friday they do 06:36:58 <kamnet> Good morning! 06:37:55 <Supercheese> Oh gads, the grf specs wiki is down too 06:37:55 <planetmaker> hi 06:38:05 <planetmaker> same DB 06:38:06 <Supercheese> how will I know what properties/callbacks/whatnot I need to code? 06:38:11 <Supercheese> @_@ 06:38:32 <planetmaker> referencing other grfs :D 06:38:40 <Supercheese> Or asking 06:39:06 <planetmaker> we should trod on oruge's feet again to supply weekly or monthly dumps for offline usage :-) 06:39:26 <Supercheese> If I wanted to make an addon grf to an existing set to enable autorefit, would all I have to do be Engine_Override the ID and set the special autorefit flag? Presuming the refit cost is already 0, that is 06:39:43 <Supercheese> or do I have to get a callback returning autorefit allowed? 06:39:46 <kamnet> OK, so who let little Bobby DROP TABLES create an account? :D 06:39:52 <planetmaker> Supercheese: in principle yes 06:40:28 <planetmaker> Supercheese: but you can't set the autorefit flag separately from the other misc flags. Thus you'll have to re-create that misc_flags property completely, including the other bits set by the original Newgrf 06:40:40 <Supercheese> ah, yes, that makes sense 06:41:24 <planetmaker> that can be a practical problem, but need not be 06:41:56 <Supercheese> Autorefit is so amazing, playing with sets that lack it feels odd 06:43:52 <Supercheese> Guess I should wget the grf specs every so often 06:43:53 <planetmaker> agreed. Once you fell in love with that, and use a play style which can nicely make use of it, then you don't want to miss it again 06:43:58 <Supercheese> oh wait, I think I have to RSS cache somewhere 06:44:02 <Supercheese> the* Rss 06:44:28 <Supercheese> Not exactly comprehensive, but it tracks the recent changes 06:44:51 <Supercheese> Bleh, the cache is 100% diffs 06:44:54 <Supercheese> hard to read 06:46:01 <Supercheese> better than nothing though 06:56:57 <Terkhen> good morning 06:59:29 <kamnet> Good morning! 07:00:27 <V453000> elo 07:05:00 <kamnet> Good morning! 07:11:29 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen 07:11:35 <planetmaker> and V 07:11:54 <V453000> hi hi hi hi hi :) 07:12:29 <Supercheese> Rupta sunt fora... :( 07:14:42 <V453000> go play the game instead :p 07:14:50 <Supercheese> Oh I am 07:14:56 <Supercheese> I still lament 07:15:00 <kamnet> I should probably do that myself. 07:15:11 <V453000> :D ok multitasking 07:15:31 <Supercheese> Once you've got good freight lines in FIRS and start producing Eng/Farm supplies, your industries start overproducing like mad 07:15:36 <kamnet> or replace the power supply in my PC. It's been running fanless for about a month now 07:15:48 <Supercheese> The positive reinforcement leads to way too much cargo to handle 07:15:54 <V453000> yeah that they totally do 07:16:12 <V453000> if you manage to do that in like 1920, you will have to expand lotssss very soon in the game 07:16:20 <Supercheese> Makes for a major challenge: how the crap do I move all this X? 07:16:36 <Supercheese> The year is 1926 and my steel mill is churning out epic amounts of metal 07:16:44 <V453000> unfortunately that way you reach the max production very soon, around 1970s I think 07:17:23 <Supercheese> The metal goes to the machine shop, which produces way too many supplies... 07:17:27 <Supercheese> and so on 07:18:00 <kamnet> Production last month: 15,792 crates of farm supplies (56% transported) 07:18:04 <V453000> yes :) oil does that even more with higher starting production 07:18:31 <kamnet> I'm pretty sure I'll never need to use another machine shop in this game 07:18:37 <V453000> :D 07:18:39 <Supercheese> I should just make canal routes everywhere, ships have roughly infinite capacity 07:18:50 <V453000> lol 07:18:54 <Supercheese> just keep building more ships, they noclip through each other never crashing :D 07:19:12 <V453000> yeah there are a few reasons why I hate ships :> 07:19:19 <Supercheese> I don't believe there's a limit to number of ships (un)loading at once 07:19:30 <Supercheese> seeing as you can only have 1 dock per station 07:20:07 <planetmaker> there is... the number of ships your company can own. And then the number of ships the game supports ;-) 07:20:15 <Supercheese> XP 07:20:18 <Supercheese> Odd 07:20:19 <V453000> :D 07:20:21 <Supercheese> that's supposed to smiley 07:20:24 <Supercheese> XD 07:20:26 <Supercheese> there we go 07:20:43 <Supercheese> (although different IRC clients may do widely different things anyway) 07:20:49 <planetmaker> which by default is 100 and 64k respectively ;-) 07:24:11 *** Varazir [~mircwars@c-94-255-132-169.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Quit: I'll be back later ] 07:29:27 <planetmaker> oh no, I did it... a new version of swedishrails :-O 07:30:45 <V453000> new tunnels? :) 07:30:51 <planetmaker> with all new shiny tunnel portals. Yes 07:31:24 <planetmaker> and as added benefit also better landscape support due to the new tunnel portal technology 07:31:44 <planetmaker> but, big limitation, only for openttd 1.2.0 or later 07:32:21 <kamnet> Argle bargle! 07:32:50 <V453000> ah 07:33:01 <V453000> yeah tunnels on unchanged landscape is annoying 07:33:16 <planetmaker> well, not anymore :-) 07:34:07 <V453000> was* 07:34:11 <V453000> :) 07:34:20 <planetmaker> :-) 07:34:42 <V453000> there was also some custom tunnels newgrf lying on the forums wasnt there 07:34:57 <planetmaker> Dunno 07:34:58 <V453000> I liked the connected tunnel portal of the adjacent tunnels :) 07:35:00 <Terkhen> planetmaker: now you only need to announce it in the forums :P 07:35:20 <Supercheese> Connected tunnel portals? Psych 07:35:43 <planetmaker> hehe, Terkhen. Given that, I probably will forget, I fear 07:35:54 <planetmaker> But I should. And also ask for updated translations 07:36:18 <andythenorth> Supercheese: interesting comments on FIRS 07:36:49 <Supercheese> The natural solution is to enable production decreases, that way things don't spiral out of control quite as much 07:38:04 <Terkhen> ooh, translations, right 07:38:09 <Terkhen> let me check it, but I can't commit :P 07:38:21 <andythenorth> Supercheese: do you have supplies piling up unused at stations? 07:38:26 <planetmaker> that's something I easily can change, Terkhen :D 07:38:45 <V453000> that excuse didnt work Terkhen :P 07:38:48 <Supercheese> I do indeed at times, until I decode to run a train to dump them all at a convenient place 07:38:52 <Terkhen> I can't commit because as usual I'm lacking a NewGRF development environment :P 07:39:00 <planetmaker> :D 07:39:02 <Supercheese> Because industries only need a tiny amount, but regularly per month 07:39:07 <V453000> thats better! 07:39:15 <planetmaker> well, no rush there, just give me the file 07:39:39 <Terkhen> and I'm not going to install one given that I plan to switch to linux soon :P 07:39:51 <planetmaker> And yes, I didn't ask for translations before - translations are for 0.8.x with x>0 :-) Better give people the thing which they should translate :-) 07:40:00 <andythenorth> Terkhen: install linux in VM Ware 07:40:13 <planetmaker> vice versa, andythenorth :-) 07:40:27 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I have an image somewhere, but again, I'm not going to bother for just a text file :) 07:40:37 <Supercheese> With FIRS supplies, I try and give all requiring industries their trickles to let them increase production, and then one "lucky" industry gets a torrent of the surplus supplies 07:40:37 <planetmaker> but... I have to re-install my linux... trying to update the distro screwed it completely 07:40:48 <andythenorth> Supercheese: I'm going to solve that somewhat 07:40:55 <Terkhen> planetmaker: which distro, debian? 07:41:06 <planetmaker> yup. 07:41:20 <Terkhen> strange 07:41:25 <planetmaker> seems the default partioning wasn't good... 10G for the system. And the update filled it 100%. which made it fail 07:41:29 <Supercheese> Allow supply stockpiles, and higher production requires more supplies/month? 07:41:33 <planetmaker> and now even the rescue won't boot 07:41:35 <Terkhen> that has happened for me with ubuntu "major updates", but never with debian 07:41:35 <planetmaker> and anyway... better clean 07:41:37 <Terkhen> oh :S 07:42:09 <planetmaker> It's alright. No real data yet, it's all still testing what I want and how things work 07:42:12 <V453000> my ultimate solution to firs is to have a train of X length (say, 5 -> 8 wagons), and have 7 of them wagons for the primary cargo, and 8th is universal wagon. In the station, trains unload their raw cargo and go to depot, where they refit to engineering supplies. But of course only the universal wagon is able to refit to that, so it means these trains pick up a minimal amount; maximum of 1:8 ratio of what raw materials they brought. While this 07:42:38 <Supercheese> autorefit works better there ;) 07:42:41 <V453000> the "helper" trains are like pickup metal, go to machine shop, refit to engineering supplies, transfer supplies back at their station 07:42:51 <Supercheese> Yeah I do that too 07:43:14 <V453000> autorefit doesnt influence anything, only lets you build a normal station 07:43:25 <Supercheese> Removes the need to go to depot 07:43:37 <Supercheese> but yeah, same end result 07:43:49 <V453000> yes but that is pretty boring to me at least 07:44:23 <planetmaker> I find it boring to send a train to depot only to put fruit boxes into the container instead of milk bottles 07:45:06 <V453000> well where-ever I send it I do not really care, as long as it is a solution which is different from the normal stations, thus making the game have more variety in general 07:45:14 <V453000> removing the variety is in my eyes wrong 07:46:01 <Supercheese> Hmm, my current "subways" (really road vehicles that are just shadows, to simulate underground subways) are nearly exactly as I want them, but other surface RVs still interfere with their pathing 07:46:14 <V453000> :D 07:46:17 <Supercheese> no way to fix that short of some patch I suppose 07:46:21 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-101-84-131.customer.schedom-europe.net] has joined #openttd 07:46:22 <V453000> ghost RVs 07:46:51 <V453000> interesting idea though :D 07:47:01 <Supercheese> yeah they're pretty neat, I should post them once I get it to a polished state 07:47:19 <V453000> too bad it cant go below buildings 07:47:32 <V453000> so functionally ... still a bus 07:47:40 <Supercheese> Yeah, but there's so many roads I figure close enough 07:48:02 <V453000> usually :) 07:48:10 <Supercheese> Just... don't try to send them over bridges. Funny things happen :P 07:48:22 *** Wakou [~stephen@host86-156-51-246.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 07:48:26 <V453000> :D 07:48:48 <V453000> shadow going over bridge? 07:48:52 <V453000> or something more spectacular? 07:49:31 <Supercheese> I have the offsets tweaked to be a little lower than the bounding box, so just clipping 07:49:35 <Supercheese> same issues with tunnels 07:50:16 <V453000> :D 07:50:24 <Supercheese> then again George's Long Vehicles have the same issues 07:51:03 <V453000> I personally never used long vehicles in a real games because of all those glitches/weird look on curves 07:51:15 <V453000> they are drawn nicely 07:51:18 <V453000> but ... 07:51:32 <V453000> really cant stand a 2 tile long bus turning curve 07:52:18 <Supercheese> I run multiple RV grfs, I use the shorter long vehicles and then eGRVTS 07:52:32 <Supercheese> and others too 07:53:07 <Supercheese> well, good night 07:53:16 <Supercheese> Oh forums back? 07:53:40 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 07:53:40 <andythenorth> I think I can solve supplies in a way that needs no complex mathematical formulas, no complicated display in the industry window, no turning off acceptance 07:53:56 <andythenorth> and also prevents dumping in thousands of tons once to max production 07:54:14 <andythenorth> and will prevent unused supplies piling up 07:54:23 <andythenorth> and will be faster to react to deliveries than current system 07:54:27 <Supercheese> Sounds nearly too good to be true 07:54:28 <andythenorth> and make more sense 07:54:32 <andythenorth> no time to code it :P 07:54:41 <andythenorth> and I want to test it before proclaiming it better 07:55:45 <Supercheese> Valete omnes 07:55:50 <Terkhen> andythenorth: what solution? 07:56:07 * Terkhen is open for NoCarGoal testing games 07:56:12 <Terkhen> :P 07:57:47 <andythenorth> brb 08:06:42 <andythenorth> Terkhen: if industry window says this, would you know how supplies worked? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1683/ 08:07:06 <andythenorth> only one of each [string_option] would be shown at once 08:10:08 <Terkhen> I would 08:10:15 <Terkhen> the multipliers seem quite big :P 08:10:42 <andythenorth> yup 08:10:54 <andythenorth> that might be tweaked 08:11:05 <andythenorth> it fits neatly with how cb35 works, but that's not essential 08:11:25 <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon had 1.5x and 2x for a similar mechanic 08:12:03 <Terkhen> :) 08:12:05 <andythenorth> I started with 100% / 150% / 200% / 300% / 400% but that was too complicated :P 08:12:12 <Terkhen> 1.5x and 2.x sounds nice 08:12:28 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd 08:12:31 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:12:39 <Terkhen> also, IMO all industries producing supplies should produce less supplies 08:12:49 <andythenorth> makes it harder at the start :P 08:12:57 <Terkhen> unless you are planning to move away from the "1 unit is enough" scheme 08:13:03 <andythenorth> I am 08:13:15 <andythenorth> this idea requires 30t or 120t every 3 months 08:13:28 <andythenorth> and production will fall back to 1x if no supplies delivered 08:13:28 <Alberth> moin andythenorth, Terkhen 08:13:32 <Terkhen> hi Alberth :) 08:13:32 <andythenorth> bonjour Alberth 08:13:53 <andythenorth> currently, if you got lucky with random chances, 12t of supplies delivered might be enough to max industry production :P 08:14:19 <andythenorth> K 08:14:27 <andythenorth> need to code the new version and test it :P 08:14:30 <andythenorth> no time :P 08:14:40 <Alberth> that's a normal state :) 08:15:09 <Terkhen> I also find it better that the production can quickly revert to normal levels if you do not supply enough 08:15:32 <Alberth> I am distributing my time over too many projects currently 08:16:04 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-40-46.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 08:16:10 <planetmaker> hi Alberth 08:16:14 <Alberth> Terkhen: It makes you wonder what those mine people do with tractors you send them :) 08:16:17 <Alberth> hi planetmaker 08:16:19 <andythenorth> I'll fix it before I play NoCarGoal again :P 08:16:27 <andythenorth> if I have time for NoCarGoal, I have time to fix this :P 08:17:56 * andythenorth would like an industry type abstraction scheme 08:18:00 <andythenorth> for GS 08:18:08 <andythenorth> so we can have a set of labels 08:18:31 <planetmaker> there's the property 0x09 or so... the replacement industry 08:18:31 <andythenorth> flat is better 08:18:38 <Terkhen> such abstraction scheme is something needed for advanced versions of the scenario format too 08:18:58 * andythenorth ponders if it would be namespaced 08:18:59 <andythenorth> probably 08:19:06 <andythenorth> firs.coalmine 08:19:08 <andythenorth> or such 08:19:14 <andythenorth> then publish the namespaces 08:19:21 <andythenorth> as a schema 08:19:36 <andythenorth> then GS authors and scenarios don't need to worry about IDs in an industry set 08:19:55 <planetmaker> industry labels like cargo labels? 08:19:58 *** HexDecimal2 [~4b796c65@99.196.229.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:19:59 <andythenorth> conveying more type information ('this is a mine') makes my brain hurt 08:20:00 <Alberth> new NewGRF authors can change them to their liking :) 08:20:53 <planetmaker> GS authors and scenario authors should not need worry about IDs at all. Just about the general type of industry... which kinda the IDs of the original industries do. But they're ... unhandy hex IDs 08:20:55 <andythenorth> I don't want to try and provide too much compatibility info with this 08:21:05 *** HexDecimal [~4b796c65@99-196-229-195.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #openttd 08:21:24 <andythenorth> different industry sets behave differently, so it's not very meaningful to try and unify "coal mine" across sets 08:21:44 <andythenorth> but it is useful if a GS can get the FIRS namespace, then find FIRS coal mines without needing ID 08:22:13 <andythenorth> it's probably just an action 0 prop, mungled with GRF-ID or such 08:22:31 <Alberth> something that can be supplied by a translation table in squirrel? 08:22:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I disagree there 08:22:47 <planetmaker> a coal mine is a coal mine for GS and scenario purposes 08:23:24 <planetmaker> the more interesting thing is factory. is it then a meat packer, an aluminum plant, a ... ? 08:23:30 <andythenorth> for scenario, not for GS 08:23:48 <andythenorth> not if we want to encourage really detailed historical GS (I don't, I think it's a crappy idea) 08:24:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth: if you want a detailed GS, then you need to assume anyway a specific industry newgrf (with md5sum and version) 08:24:55 <planetmaker> but generally you want a coal mine. a steel mill or a sawmill or "other mine" around a place for scenarios 08:25:11 <planetmaker> so: detailed: you can do it, as matching might be unique. But you need an abstraction 08:25:30 <Terkhen> that's the problem with scenarios, having a label for "meat packer" serves no purpose because it is probably an industry unique to a given NewGRF 08:25:44 <Terkhen> therefore, industry labels are not enough 08:25:52 <Terkhen> it would need industry labels and industry classes 08:26:02 <planetmaker> yup 08:26:15 <Terkhen> if it cannot find the industry label, use the industry with the closest match of industry classes 08:26:24 <planetmaker> the industry class imho is served by the existing override property in newgrfs. It could be extended somewhat to some new IDs though 08:26:34 <planetmaker> but maybe something new is better 08:26:57 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that only works when converting scenarios from FIRS to default industries 08:26:57 <planetmaker> actually... class with sub classes maybe low byte and high byte 08:27:05 <Terkhen> not when converting from FIRS to ECS for example 08:27:22 <planetmaker> Terkhen: that of course assumes that they both make use of setting propper substitutes 08:27:45 <planetmaker> of course it can't work 100% correct... they are different after all and not everything has a exact substitute from firs to ecs 08:28:06 <Terkhen> it also won't work between different climates 08:28:16 <Terkhen> toyland :P 08:28:32 <Terkhen> there are good reasons why I'm completely ignoring industries for now in the scenario format 08:28:34 <Terkhen> :D 08:28:46 <Alberth> scenarios are climate specific, aren't they? 08:29:08 <Terkhen> yes, but extended heightmaps are not 08:29:23 <Terkhen> they will have a recommended climate 08:29:34 <Alberth> fancy :) 08:29:40 <Terkhen> but I would not like to force users on a given climate 08:29:58 <Terkhen> the idea is to free scenario creators from these kind of unchangeable decisions 08:30:37 <Terkhen> and from what andythenorth mentioned, I'm not sure that a solution that works for GS/NewGRF would work for the scenario format too 08:30:46 <Alberth> bummer, there goes my idea of making awesome scenarios for getting people to play toyland ;p 08:31:41 <Terkhen> if, after loading the scenario, the climate is set to toyland by default and they don't notice it, they will start a game in toyland without knowing it 08:31:54 <Terkhen> they are not forced to continue it, but people are lazy :P 08:32:49 <Alberth> depends on how much freedom you want to keep in the format, ie "I want that precise industry + layout" versus "a mining industry here please" 08:33:38 <Alberth> but as pm says, probably the factories are more complicated to do 08:34:05 <andythenorth> what's the purpose? 08:34:18 <Terkhen> andythenorth: create scenarios that are playable with any climate / setting / newgrf selection 08:34:21 <andythenorth> to preserve how history evolves? 08:34:25 <andythenorth> or to avoid breaking chains? 08:34:39 <Terkhen> with a NewGRF change, chains are going to be broken anyways 08:35:25 <Terkhen> so in those changes, generic stuff like "mining industry" "metal/machinery factory" "food factory" should be enough 08:36:02 <Terkhen> if the NewGRF does not change, it could either use "industry labels" or the generic scheme, as decided by the user 08:36:14 <Terkhen> of course, there should always be the option to ignore the scenario data for industries completely and just regenerate them 08:36:21 <andythenorth> needs a graph analysis of input / output cargos 08:36:39 <andythenorth> can't think of any other valid route 08:36:41 * Terkhen wonders if scenario creators will complain if the users can play their scenarios ignoring some parts of them 08:36:53 <Terkhen> andythenorth: IMO it should not be that complicated 08:36:59 <Alberth> you may want to do something like "mine producing cargo A" and "factory taking A producing B" in a scenario 08:37:18 <planetmaker> Terkhen: they won't... if it's always been that case (with the new format) 08:37:20 <Alberth> where A and B are filled in while instantiating the scenario 08:37:35 <andythenorth> I can't see this working tbh :) 08:37:44 <Terkhen> just create a certain industry selection that is similar to what the scenario developer created, make sure that industry restrictions such as "have at least one instance of this type in the map" are enforced and call it a day 08:38:05 <andythenorth> it's not possible to abstract generic rules; newgrfs are specific 08:38:14 * andythenorth is thinking out loud 08:38:16 <Terkhen> trying to create a map that makes all chains viable and playable from a specific set of data is not pssible 08:38:31 <Alberth> andythenorth: but the user choose those rules by picking the newgrf 08:38:46 <Terkhen> the scenario format will always fail with stuff like FIRS clustered farms anyways, no matter what we do 08:38:59 <Alberth> #a whole lot of rosie! 08:39:05 <Terkhen> unless we make it intelligent enough to group and ungroup industries :P 08:39:26 <Terkhen> therefore, a simple format that makes it possible to switch from one set to another should be enough 08:39:40 <planetmaker> Terkhen: firs only groups them, if auto-generating. not if hand-picked 08:39:51 <Terkhen> but it will always be better to play with the same NewGRF set used when creating the scenario 08:40:04 <Terkhen> planetmaker: you can generate a normal map with FIRS, create scenario, load scenario with ECS or normal industry 08:40:09 <Alberth> "recommended" :) 08:40:10 <planetmaker> thus the process in scenarios when using the option "as suggested by scenario" could us the player-placed conditions 08:40:16 <andythenorth> namespaces 08:40:17 <planetmaker> though... doesn't make sense 08:40:18 <andythenorth> seriously 08:40:28 <andythenorth> scenario should get one layer per known newgrf 08:40:33 <andythenorth> forget generic abstractions for this 08:40:39 <andythenorth> there are only 4-5 industry sets anyway 08:40:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's a PITA to create 08:40:58 <andythenorth> [shrug] :) 08:40:59 <Terkhen> so... one layer for each FIRS version? :P 08:41:08 <planetmaker> as scenario author I want to say "mines here", factory here, oil here, ... 08:41:08 <andythenorth> one layer for each namespace :P 08:41:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you can't :) 08:41:21 <andythenorth> it's not a thing :) 08:41:24 <Terkhen> IMO the most important goals of the industry layer are: 08:41:45 <andythenorth> you *could* do it with a massive translation table though :O 08:41:59 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 08:41:59 <Terkhen> 1) if you have a scenario with a recommended industry set, it should work correctly with different versions of the industry set as long as they don't change a lot of things 08:42:06 <andythenorth> 'factory' = pick one from [list of FIRS industries matching 'factory'] 08:42:11 <Terkhen> 2) you should be able to create generic scenarios, that work reasonabily good with all industry sets 08:42:17 <Terkhen> all other things are not required 08:42:30 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's what the override property is used for ;-) 08:42:43 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42:56 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so you've already accepted the massive limitations of that? 08:42:58 <planetmaker> Terkhen: indeed. firs->ecs and vice versa need not work too well 08:43:02 <Terkhen> a FIRS -> ECS conversion will not break anything ingame... but, the gameplay itself will probably be broken and we should not try to fix it at all 08:43:04 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes 08:43:07 <andythenorth> others might not understand how limited it is :P 08:43:14 <andythenorth> like, almost useless :) 08:43:24 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 08:43:27 <Terkhen> heightmaps currently give you a warning when you select sizes that will result in a broken map 08:43:43 <Terkhen> the industry layer will give you similar warnings with regard to your newgrf selection, and call it a day 08:43:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I think the override / substitute property might get a few more variables. Or maybe a new for this purpose (aka classes) but still. Would allow some basic translation cross-grf 08:44:00 <Terkhen> (as long as the scenario has a preferred industry NewGRF set) 08:44:27 <planetmaker> thus a scenario could include class-ID of industery, preferred newgrfID and industryID 08:44:38 <planetmaker> thus same newgrf would work well. 08:44:56 <planetmaker> other newgrfs might work somewhat using industry from the same classes 08:45:04 <Terkhen> for newgrf conversions, IMO the existing property "Industry production type (0B)" should be enough 08:45:18 <Terkhen> or something like that 08:45:20 <planetmaker> if the wiki only worked :D 08:45:30 <Terkhen> we don't need complicated schemes 08:45:30 <planetmaker> I think that's a bit too coarse, Terkhen 08:45:30 <Terkhen> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industries 08:45:32 <Terkhen> it works for me 08:45:33 <planetmaker> but maybe not 08:45:42 <planetmaker> oh, it's back :-) 08:45:57 <Terkhen> "place organic industry here, place organic processing industry here, place goods producing industry here" 08:45:58 <planetmaker> I meant substitute actually all the time 08:46:02 <Terkhen> and forget about it 08:46:10 <planetmaker> 0x08 08:46:13 <Terkhen> if substitute works for stuff like toyland then we could use substitute 08:46:26 <planetmaker> substitute has an ID for every ttd industry 08:46:31 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 08:46:50 <planetmaker> thus does a bad job at ecs/firs tertiary. but better than just organic / goods producing 08:46:53 <Terkhen> so if I have a toyland map and I convert it to temperate, which information can we use from the substitute? 08:47:09 <andythenorth> I would rather go a bit further to combine new scenario + NoConomy 08:47:21 <andythenorth> and let map contain seed points for industry classes (or cargos) 08:47:28 <andythenorth> gameplay is about cargo 08:47:39 <andythenorth> maybe this should be modelled as cargo providers / accepters 08:47:47 <planetmaker> Terkhen: probably none ;-) 08:47:47 <andythenorth> and nodes are otherwise black boxes to scenario 08:48:03 <planetmaker> except industry locations 08:48:25 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the scenario format only is meant to represent the ingame information in a newgrf agnostic way, what you are mentioning now should apply to normal maps first, and then we should look into a way to represent it into the new scenario format 08:48:50 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 08:49:48 <andythenorth> how would seed points get onto a normal map? :o 08:50:37 <Terkhen> through map generation :) 08:50:44 <Terkhen> they should also take into account industries appearing in the future 08:50:52 <Terkhen> and that they are going to appear at random places 08:50:55 <Terkhen> good luck :P 08:51:06 <andythenorth> indeed :P 08:51:17 <andythenorth> that's why I thought they were a scenario thing 08:51:28 <planetmaker> well. The future randomness could make use of them. It's openttd code 08:51:35 <planetmaker> not newgrf code 08:51:42 <planetmaker> which chooses / suggests places 08:51:45 <Terkhen> but they are heavily influenced by newgrf code in ways that are difficult for openttd code to take into account 08:51:58 <planetmaker> the newgrf only can say "yes" or "no" to a suggested place 08:52:12 <andythenorth> I was hoping they had nothing to do with newgrf 08:52:26 <andythenorth> it's already known that newgrf is a bad approach to this specific problem 08:53:34 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7000.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:53:45 <andythenorth> always 08:53:47 <planetmaker> I'm thinking actually that the placement rules for industries can be too extensive on the newgrf side 08:54:01 <andythenorth> I think they're hideous in newgrf :P 08:54:04 <planetmaker> like many things would get easier, if e.g. firs could not decide to place farms in clusters 08:54:24 <andythenorth> tricky 08:54:31 <planetmaker> that the only thing which would suffice to matter to firs is the landslope beneath 08:54:40 <planetmaker> but... that would make many things impossible again 08:54:40 <andythenorth> some are needed, like spacing conflicting / neigbouring types 08:54:42 <planetmaker> not nice either 08:55:00 <andythenorth> losing the clusters would also require adjustment of production amounts 08:55:15 <andythenorth> so GS / scenario would need control over newgrf production 08:55:18 <planetmaker> it's one of the things which cannot be interfaced easily. if at all in a generic way 08:55:52 <planetmaker> thus, I guess, if you want to make use of industry placement in GS, you're either bound to a very crude control or you need to bind it to a specific newgrf 08:56:00 <andythenorth> yup 08:56:11 <andythenorth> which means you need an abstraction from type = ID 08:56:18 <andythenorth> which is where I started this :) 08:56:23 <planetmaker> :-) 08:56:43 <andythenorth> I don't think an abstraction is very hard 08:56:59 <andythenorth> newgrf just needs an action 0 prop per industry (label), or a translation table 08:57:11 <andythenorth> then publish those publicly 08:57:19 <andythenorth> and namespace them :P 08:57:34 <Alberth> :) /me wonders how to publish secretly :) 08:57:35 <frosch123> lol @ fs#5286 08:58:14 <planetmaker> he 08:58:35 <andythenorth> 5280 can be fixed 08:58:38 <andythenorth> just allow it 08:58:41 <andythenorth> I like the jumping trains 09:01:00 <andythenorth> Terkhen: new scenario format uses colours in pngs to place industries? 09:01:24 <Alberth> andythenorth: there is no industry placement in the new format yet 09:01:29 <andythenorth> use pngs :P 09:01:51 <andythenorth> then we write a PIL program that translates between the industry sets 09:01:55 <andythenorth> using a lookup table 09:01:58 <andythenorth> 'community maintained' :P 09:02:35 <andythenorth> simples 09:03:17 <andythenorth> we can also rip out all map gen 09:03:29 <andythenorth> and make it use scenario format 09:03:39 <andythenorth> then ship map gen plug ins 09:03:45 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1ABBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:05:02 <andythenorth> newgrf industry placement could then largely be dropped 09:05:14 <andythenorth> in favour of shipping a map gen plugin in the .tar 09:05:31 <andythenorth> so FIRS would have a plugin to do things like clustering, place some industries near rivers etc 09:05:45 <andythenorth> and player could swap out that plugin if they want :P 09:05:54 <andythenorth> this will be awesome :) 09:05:57 <andythenorth> let's write code :) 09:06:58 <andythenorth> scenarios could do one of three things: 09:07:09 <andythenorth> - specify what should be on all layers 09:07:21 <andythenorth> - specify what should be on some layers, and delegate others to specific plugins 09:07:37 <andythenorth> - specify some layers, delegate others to plugins of players choosing 09:07:57 <andythenorth> or random :P 09:08:33 <Alberth> coming up with specs is always the easy part :) 09:08:41 <andythenorth> ach it's only png mashing :) 09:08:43 <andythenorth> can't be hard 09:08:56 <andythenorth> also forget GS trying to control map at map gen 09:09:07 <andythenorth> just give GS a way to delegate to certain plugins 09:09:11 <andythenorth> or fixed pngs 09:09:28 <andythenorth> I should draw a flow / stack for this :) 09:09:40 <andythenorth> but I have to go to a toddler birthday party 09:09:49 <Alberth> you remember what you said an hour ago? :) 09:09:58 <andythenorth> this solves nearly everything except industry opening / closing :P 09:10:08 <andythenorth> oh yes, fix FIRS first :P 09:10:31 <Alberth> and perhaps learn c++ next :D 09:10:49 <andythenorth> do any of you have the slightest clue what I mean by the above? :P 09:11:25 <andythenorth> anyway, /me -> toddlers 09:11:28 <andythenorth> bbl 09:11:33 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:13:56 <kamnet> Well, darn! Just when I had a FIRS-related question for Andy 09:14:56 <kamnet> Just noticed I got some coal mines showing only 49% of product transported, stations are rated poor, but I got a huge queue of trucks waiting to load, all the trucks are making a profit and are only 2 years old. 09:15:13 <kamnet> And they're getting 100+ boxes of supplies every month 09:16:50 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:17:23 <Alberth> perhaps the trucks take too long to deliver? 09:18:27 <Alberth> or too long to load, ie not enough visits? 09:19:04 <Alberth> as an experiment, you can try to switch off 'full load', and see what happens 09:19:28 <Alberth> although I don't know the exact mechanisms at work there 09:19:37 <kamnet> If they take too long to deliver, wouldn't they lose money instead of profit? 09:20:09 <kamnet> As for distance, they're just 20 or so tiles away from their drop-off point 09:21:58 <kamnet> Although, weird, just looked again, about 1 week has gone by in the game, and they're ow rated Very Good. Still got vehicles queued up, but coal is flowing faster. Weird. 09:22:35 <Alberth> recession? 09:23:00 <kamnet> Maybe. But jsut a one-week recession? 09:23:10 <Alberth> too short 09:23:24 <kamnet> I forgot, I also got daylength patch running here, so, who knows.. 09:24:02 <Alberth> daylength patches are very good at messing up timings in the game :) 09:24:35 <planetmaker> lol, yes 09:24:40 <planetmaker> all bets are off then 09:25:17 *** andythen_ [~andytheno@31.125.208.72] has joined #openttd 09:25:52 <kamnet> *shrugs* Not gonna worry too much about it then. 09:26:13 <andythen_> So the 'newgame' dialog would be replaced 09:26:20 <frosch123> kamnet: maybe a plane crash nearby? 09:26:28 <frosch123> they reset the rating of stations to 0 09:26:35 <kamnet> Not using any planes yet. 09:27:01 <andythen_> With a nice stack of options for terrain, towns, rivers etc 09:27:57 <kamnet> *ponders* Be kinda neat if there was a plane that came down and scooped coal out of the coal fields like fire fighting planes scoop water out of lakes. 09:28:02 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 09:28:07 <kamnet> There's an idea for NUTS :D 09:28:36 <andythen_> Each option would have these choices: provided by scenario (locked), use plugin, load png 09:28:54 <Alberth> kamnet: just throw the coal into the air at the right moment :) 09:28:59 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:29:03 <andythen_> Plugins would have parameters 09:29:38 <Alberth> andythen_: you're day-dreaming I think, please wake up 09:29:39 <andythen_> Actual map gen pipeline would use png as input 09:29:44 <kamnet> OH!! I just figured out why the stations showed poor ratings. I forgot that I have a different company servicing them now instead of "mine", so the ratings under "my" company have gone to crap. 09:30:38 <andythen_> :p 09:39:48 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:41:00 <planetmaker> wth...! OpenTTD crashed after I downloaded one NewGRF via online content 09:44:24 <frosch123> i hope you have a proper crashlog or core file :) 09:44:27 <planetmaker> hm... even reported 09:44:31 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 09:45:03 <planetmaker> normal crash... but it's not telling much. FS 5281 09:45:25 <frosch123> "any single arbitrary file"? 09:45:31 <frosch123> you mean you can reproduce the issue? 09:46:54 <andythen_> Alberth I'm 100% serious :) 09:47:02 <frosch123> otherwise i have to reject your report, you are using a modified version :p 09:47:18 <andythen_> Although i may be also smoking crack :p 09:49:04 <planetmaker> frosch123: it's only sbn's patch :-) 09:49:19 <frosch123> ok, accepted, it also crashes for me :) 09:49:31 <frosch123> let's get a proper backtrace 09:49:44 <frosch123> ah, lordaro broke it 09:49:49 <frosch123> it crashes in one of his functions :) 09:49:52 <planetmaker> :D 09:50:00 <Zuu> planetmaker: I'm not able to reproduce it with an AI. A NewGRF however did it. :-) 09:50:51 <frosch123> yeah, ContentInfo::GetTextfile looks a bit different for newgrf than for other stuff 09:51:36 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-035-169.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 09:52:06 <Terkhen> andythen_: the new scenario format is meant to be independent from openttd itself; it includes layers or object files for certain info; for stuff not included or that the user decides not to use for scenario creation, the usual generation tools from OpenTTD are meant to be used 09:52:19 <Terkhen> therefore, your "plugins" would be an independent project for OpenTTD itself 09:52:30 <Terkhen> but, since the new scenario format is meant to be independent 09:52:39 <Terkhen> you could always generate a scenario with an external tool 09:52:41 <Alberth> andythen_: most grand plans are taken very serious when they are drawn. This one looks feasible, but is at least a year away 09:52:59 <Terkhen> and sorry, I was at the phone :P 09:53:11 <Alberth> probably longer, and builds one several layers of other plans 09:54:18 <Terkhen> the scenario format plans do not include map generation of any kind, just a way to abstract decisions that were previously set in stone and, as a nice bonus, allow scenarios to be edited easily by external tools 09:54:24 <frosch123> planetmaker: Zuu: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1684/ 09:56:11 <Zuu> If the issue is that FindGRFConfig can return null, then it does seem to fix that. 09:56:38 <Zuu> But I haven't read the full scope of that code. 09:57:06 <frosch123> yeah, it happens when it updates the shading state of the view textfile buttons after download but before grf rescan 09:57:35 <frosch123> so, the content claims to be downloaded while FindGRFConfig gives NULL 09:57:55 <frosch123> so, it only happens if you download a newgrf whose item is still seleted in the gui 09:58:07 <frosch123> i.e. it does usually not happen if you download only updates :) 10:02:03 <frosch123> planetmaker: btw. for your new debian installation: you might want to put "ulimit -c unlimited" into ~/.bashrc 10:02:28 <frosch123> that enables core files, so you can easily get backtraces of every program that crashes 10:02:37 <frosch123> without attaching a debugger in advance 10:02:54 <andythen_> Terkhen so does openttd parse scenario format to create new game? 10:02:56 <frosch123> actually, that might also work for osx 10:03:21 <andythen_> Or is there another tool ? 10:03:49 <Terkhen> andythen_: openttd parses the scenario and creates a map with that info 10:04:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24508 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp_content.cpp: -Fix [FS#5281] (24488): Content GUI crashed after downloading a NewGRF while it is selected. 10:04:58 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:04:58 <andythen_> So if output of 'map gen' was scenario format...? 10:05:12 <Terkhen> openttd could load it, yes 10:05:37 <planetmaker> ah, that sounds like a good advise, frosch123. thanks 10:06:28 <frosch123> if you want to test, just kill openttd via "kill -6 `pidof openttd`" 10:06:53 <frosch123> it should write a core file, which you can evaluate via "gdb <exexcutable> <core file>" 10:09:54 <andythen_> Terkhen how will openttd handle a layer that scenario doesn't provide? 10:10:22 <frosch123> andythen_: there is a whole specs page on the wiki :) 10:10:40 <andythen_> Meh, on my phone ;) 10:10:49 <planetmaker> first I have to finish my upgrade to wheezy though :D 10:11:07 <frosch123> did you start with wheezy in the first place? 10:11:13 <planetmaker> nope 10:11:23 <Terkhen> andythen_: layers not provided are generated normally by openttd 10:11:25 <frosch123> be aware that wheezy comes with gnome 3 then :p 10:11:43 <frosch123> i was lucky that i installed wheezy only in a vm 10:11:48 <planetmaker> but I found squeeze lacking a lot of things... especially support for basically all the essential hardware. And when I backport everything anyway... 10:11:54 <frosch123> so i know what crap awates me after update 10:12:14 <planetmaker> I can always then switch the window manager :-) 10:12:26 <planetmaker> and what I see... I actually find it quite well-looking. 10:12:30 <planetmaker> Looks osx-ish :D 10:12:57 <frosch123> yeah, maybe you never learned usability :p 10:13:12 <planetmaker> :D 10:13:23 <frosch123> do you have a one-button mouse btw :p 10:13:34 <planetmaker> I was not very fond of the the default UI of debian squeeze really 10:13:58 <planetmaker> on this PC I have a "normal" mouse 10:14:35 <frosch123> it always amazed me how old macs had one button, ms had two, and independent stuff had at least 3 10:15:21 <andythen_> I have no buttons at all 10:15:40 <frosch123> your finger is a button 10:15:45 <frosch123> just watch it more closely 10:17:27 <Terkhen> andythen_: you could make an external tool that generates custom made scenarios for FIRS, if that's what you are thinking 10:19:27 <CaptObvious> ugh, more newgrf issues on a dedicated server 10:19:41 <CaptObvious> I did "content update", waited a bit, "content select all" and "content download" 10:19:48 <CaptObvious> which worked fine, it downloaded all of the content 10:20:26 <CaptObvious> now when I'm trying to activate the newgrfs by copying and pasting the [newgrf] section from my desktop's openttd.cfg the server is launching with no newgrfs active and it empties out that section of openttd.cfg 10:21:00 <Alberth> server was running while editing the openttd.cfg? don't do that 10:21:00 <frosch123> usually a / \ issue in the paths 10:21:25 <CaptObvious> openttd isn't smart enough to run a replace "\" with "/" on unix systems? 10:21:53 <Alberth> \ has a different meaning than / at unix systems 10:22:00 <CaptObvious> true 10:22:28 <frosch123> Alberth: i doubt we support that meaning :p 10:22:36 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-40-46.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:23:00 <CaptObvious> frosch123 - \ is an escape character in unix 10:23:06 <Alberth> frosch123: a filename with a \ is not allowed? 10:23:34 <CaptObvious> yep, you guys were right, it was a \ / issue 10:23:45 <CaptObvious> thanks :) 10:24:06 <frosch123> Alberth: i doubt we do any escaping there 10:24:11 <frosch123> we will just read it as "\" 10:24:21 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 10:24:28 <Alberth> frosch123: yep, and \ is a legal character in filenames :p 10:24:28 <drac_boy> hi 10:24:38 <CaptObvious> also, off the top of your heads, any idea if the day length patch is considering being included in trunk? it's being requested a lot by people on my server but I don't want to use anything that I can't get from BaNaNaS because...well...people are stupid 10:24:49 <CaptObvious> and I don't want to have to support someone manually unzipping stuff 10:24:52 <frosch123> isn't "/" legal as well, if you escape it? 10:25:06 <Alberth> frosch123: not afaik 10:25:22 <Alberth> CaptObvious: daylength patch is not working properly yet 10:25:36 <Alberth> for all patches that claim to implement it :) 10:26:09 <CaptObvious> that's one I'm really waiting for. going from fast electric->monorail->maglev is way too fast, you spend all of your time around that period buying new trains instead of expanding your network 10:26:18 <Terkhen> to my knowledge, none of the daylenght patches is finished 10:26:20 <Alberth> frosch123: % touch a\/b <-- touch: cannot touch `a/b': No such file or directory 10:26:53 <drac_boy> alberth btw were there any problems or they just for some reason didn't feel like including the variable vehicle % loading patch for quite some time? 10:26:59 <CaptObvious> but if one does get finished and works properly, would it be included in trunk or is it something the devs have said no to? 10:27:13 <drac_boy> that was kinda an interesting feature re not having to wait for full load if you didn't want to 10:27:48 <Alberth> CaptObvious: usually the disagreement is about the notion of "finished" 10:27:49 <CaptObvious> drac_boy - along a similar vein, I'd love it if I could make a train with some cargo leave a station and go to its next order if another empty train that can carry the same cargo arrives at the station 10:28:05 <CaptObvious> like "load until reinforced" 10:28:14 <drac_boy> CaptObvious sounds a bit more complicated to me tbh but meh :) 10:28:15 <Alberth> drac_boy: ? 10:28:58 <drac_boy> alberth in some of the alternative build (I forgot which one tho) you could click where the 'full load' button normally was and it would pop down a list of between 10% to 100% in steps of tens 10:29:02 <Alberth> CaptObvious: one path I can still see open is to extend eg electric by means of a newgrf 10:29:05 <Terkhen> CaptObvious: usually we say "no" to things for a reason, you know :P 10:29:13 <drac_boy> so you could make a train wait to get 'some' cargo but not have to keep sitting there for a full load 10:29:33 <Terkhen> to my knowledge there is no concept problem with the daylength patch, so probably the only issue is "finished and correct" 10:30:20 <Alberth> drac_boy: I don't remember seeing a patch for that, no idea why you ask me about it 10:30:29 <Terkhen> but since the patch has to touch almost every part of the game, it is a huge beast to tame 10:30:49 <drac_boy> heh sorry its just that when you said 'for all patches' I kinda started thinking about that for some reason :-> 10:31:33 <Alberth> drac_boy: that refered to the collection of patches that claim to implement daylength 10:32:03 <CaptObvious> is it not just extending the amount of ticks per day? 10:32:13 <CaptObvious> although I suppose you'd end up with cities covering the entire map 10:32:28 <Alberth> broken industry production, messed up newgrfs 10:32:43 <Alberth> and so the mess starts :) 10:32:44 <frosch123> Terkhen: actually, the only problem of the daylength patch is the concept problem :p 10:33:06 <frosch123> most of them have no concept at all and randomly modify some timings 10:33:12 <frosch123> which totallly break other timings 10:33:14 <drac_boy> CaptObvious what could be interesting to me tho is if they would bring programmable signals over to openttd finally so there wouldn't be a need to use waypoints grouped together 10:33:19 <Alberth> broken payments, vehilce speeds, etc etc 10:33:31 <CaptObvious> drac_boy - another thing I'd love is signals by cargo type 10:33:34 <drac_boy> waypoints are still too primative anyway 10:33:52 <drac_boy> CaptObvious thats exactly what programmable signals is btw, it can sort by either the locomotive or wagon stats whatever way you wanted to put it 10:33:53 <Alberth> drac_boy: programmable signals????? yuck 10:33:53 <CaptObvious> goods trains to these platforms, passenger trains to those platforms... 10:34:05 <Terkhen> frosch123: but are those problems solvable by design or not? 10:34:09 <drac_boy> CaptObvious I use them like *all* the times in patch games :-> 10:34:27 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus] 10:34:29 <CaptObvious> I can see them being useful in specific circumstances, but not really all the time 10:34:41 <Alberth> drac_boy: people have a lot of trouble to understand normal signals already 10:34:41 <CaptObvious> I had one station in my last game that could have done with them 10:34:41 <drac_boy> so you can watch a station that is one single name but has 3+ platforms and yet trains are always going to specific platforms thanks to the signals 10:34:41 <frosch123> Terkhen: noone ever checked properly 10:34:51 <CaptObvious> yes, but that's cosmetic 10:34:54 <CaptObvious> I mean practical reason 10:35:01 <frosch123> noone knows what stuff exactly happens in tileloops, onnewday, onnewmonth and so on 10:35:16 <frosch123> a proper daylength patch would likely move stuff between them 10:35:24 <drac_boy> Alberth then why does trunk still include other confusing things not to mention when 'transfer' actually took rather than leave cargo for a while before? :) 10:35:31 <drac_boy> but meh 10:35:38 <Alberth> drac_boy: we need a better / different mechanism than hooking it up to an complicated thing, which makes it totally incomprehensible for most users 10:36:45 <drac_boy> frosch123 if i recall right one of the manual hack at daylength before caused longer date but the money still moved at same tick so you could earn more money 10:36:58 <Alberth> ie you don't really want to program signals, but it is just the mechanism chosen currently 10:36:59 <drac_boy> that was one of the issue with it, don't know if the patches fixed that? 10:38:09 *** andythen_ [~andytheno@31.125.208.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:50 <frosch123> drac_boy: see, that is already the problem of the concept :) you just stated that daylength should not change in the amount of income during a realtime period... but wouldn't that totally break the game? you would have to wait way longer for enough money to build to your second train 10:39:15 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@31.125.208.72] has joined #openttd 10:40:12 <drac_boy> frosch123 heh well simple solution would be to chop the prices by more or less equal amount but that'll mean a new release of the grf for a specific build tho so I guess thats why it might get little uptake for now :) 10:43:59 <drac_boy> CaptObvious is there any other things beside signals and variable loading that you've wanted to see? just wondering 10:46:12 <Terkhen> frosch123: ok 10:48:56 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@31.125.208.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:45 <CaptObvious> drac_boy - day length modification 10:51:17 <drac_boy> heh 10:51:20 *** HexDecimal [~4b796c65@99-196-229-195.cust.wildblue.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 10:51:30 <CaptObvious> frosch123 - with day length increase I just want it so ingame days pass slower. I'd want income and everything else to stay the same 10:51:37 <CaptObvious> I'd just like to have a network game last a week or more 10:52:12 <frosch123> CaptObvious: well, just take a look how much stuff is attached to time 10:52:36 <frosch123> industry production, industry production changes, duration of certain town actions 10:52:46 <frosch123> town growth, income, running cost... 10:52:51 <frosch123> time tables.. 10:53:05 <frosch123> all that stuff is usually discussed when it comes to "changing speed of time" 10:53:17 <frosch123> while i think most peoply only want "different vehicle introduction dates" 10:53:29 <frosch123> and "i do not care about house graphics introduction dates" 10:53:39 <drac_boy> different introduction....? 10:54:25 <frosch123> well, i guess 90% of daylength users are happy if a newgrf modifies vehicle intro dates, so that steam is the technology until 2400 10:54:30 <frosch123> and monorail comes in year 3000 10:54:35 <drac_boy> oh heh 10:54:53 <frosch123> the whole daylength discussion is just beside the point imo :p 10:54:57 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@31.125.208.72] has joined #openttd 10:57:50 <NGC3982> Afternoon. 11:04:18 <drac_boy> frosch123 if you don't mind me asking, why is it that ottd for some reason can't build rails/roads right over tunnel portals? always wondered about that 11:04:22 <drac_boy> hi NGC3982 11:04:45 *** andythenorth_ [~andytheno@31.125.208.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:29 <frosch123> because noone coded it in a way we like 11:08:10 <frosch123> anyway, i wanted to code a gs today :) 11:08:18 <Terkhen> interesting, which one? :P 11:08:27 <frosch123> can't tell before finished 11:08:34 <frosch123> but the project name is "silicon valley" 11:10:51 <drac_boy> frosch123 does anyone ever still talk about bridges over buildings and/or other bridges or its been left in the dust pile? 11:11:17 <frosch123> we have bridges over objects 11:11:39 <frosch123> other than that i cannot remember any discussion of the past you might be referring to 11:12:00 <frosch123> hmm... if i start gs based on zuus gs 11:12:10 <Rubidium> I'd reckon nobody really cared adding stuff to the NewGRF specs to accomplish that 11:12:12 <drac_boy> mm I always found it a bit silly when you had a town in a valley starting at level 2 and you were building rails up one side of the valley at level 6 and found that you couldn't build a bridge across as it would take you right over the town 11:12:17 <frosch123> i guess i keep zuus copyright notice, right? 11:12:27 <drac_boy> or the multiplayer games where one bridge is in way of another 11:12:40 <Rubidium> even then, it'd only be for NewGRFs (for compatability reasons) 11:12:44 <drac_boy> at least its not a big nitpick yet 11:13:32 <frosch123> i change it into a "orignal copyright of Minimal GS" 11:13:51 <drac_boy> tunnels on the other hand shows exactly how it should work... you can't intersect two at same level but if north-south tunnel is at level 4 and east-west one is at level 5 they don't have any problem 11:14:15 <Zuu> frosch123: you have my permission to change the copyright notice to your own 11:14:34 <Rubidium> drac_boy: except that the tunnel graphics are not suitable for building stuff on 11:15:53 <Zuu> frosch123: you may find FS#5206 and #5283 worth to apply if you need added debugging capabilities. 11:16:10 <frosch123> i am not that far yet :p 11:21:14 <drac_boy> oh there was something I meant to ask for a bit of a while now...whats with certain banana grfs that have no apparent forum thread link or anything at all? 11:21:24 <drac_boy> in the web list that is 11:21:52 <Rubidium> the author didn't bother to enter an URL 11:22:15 <drac_boy> mm it can be a bit silly when you find out the grf needs a parameter but you don't know where to look 11:22:35 <Rubidium> in the readme? 11:22:42 <drac_boy> at least theres one grf that I don't think needed a url anyway..the reduced pax/mail payment. its too simple to need any help 11:22:42 <Terkhen> indeed :P 11:22:42 <Rubidium> but I reckon that wasn't added either 11:23:10 <Terkhen> now it is possible to add readme and a website link to NewGRFs, but I don't know if that's been adopted by most or not 11:24:00 <Rubidium> so.. should h2h + nocargoal work? 11:24:32 <Zuu> is Yexos h2h patch up to date with nogo? 11:24:59 <Rubidium> it's lagging 6 revs 11:25:16 <frosch123> Zuu: it is updated, but it did not quite work last week 11:25:33 <Zuu> ok, I didn't knew it had been updated lately. 11:26:13 <Zuu> I guess it will work with nocargoal. No cargoal just monitor all towns for cargo arrival. 11:29:18 <Alberth> the question is whether the industries know they are being used in a h2h game :p 11:30:17 <kamnet> Hm. Any chance that the petrol stations in TTRS can be coded so that they face towards a road, instead of away from it? 11:30:54 <drac_boy> kamnet problem with town buildings is they're only placed once and don't know whats in the adjacent tiles (afaik) so any sort of alignments? forget it 11:30:56 <Zuu> The Swedish House set had a such feature, so it is probably possible. 11:31:03 <Rubidium> why not? If it consistently faces away from it, it shouldn't be too hard to face the other way 11:31:11 <drac_boy> I could be wrong tho from what I've managed to read of the newgrf specs 11:31:26 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:45 <kamnet> I'm guessing is that the petrol station is only drawn in one orientation, since it is quite a bit old now. 11:31:57 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 11:32:08 <drac_boy> station tiles sometimes sorta annoys me a bit this way when you find out the one tile you wanted to use is just aligned on the wrong side of track :-s 11:35:55 <drac_boy> about sides...I still have to figure giving it a try one day but is it ever possible to have a single vehicle sprite with two smoke sources? 11:40:55 <kamnet> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1044451#p1044451 11:51:51 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-158-32.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 11:55:19 <NGC3982> You guys know of any good NewGRF that give lots of maglev/fast trains after 2000-2050? :) 11:56:09 <drac_boy> heh no idea sorry :p all only because I prefer economical trains ;) 11:56:16 <NGC3982> :) 11:57:46 <frosch123> maybe nuts, but i never played it so far 11:57:47 <drac_boy> NGC3982 how about 70km/h for a small weekly expense .. and can haul 300 passengers behind it? :P 11:57:53 <drac_boy> heh heh 11:58:03 <frosch123> iirc. ukrs also adds future train 11:58:10 <frosch123> steam powered maglev or so 12:06:33 <NGC3982> :D 12:06:44 <Zuu> Oh, the DictatorAI readme states that you need OpenTTD 1.5 to run it :-) 12:07:12 <CaptObvious> damn, and I left my time machine at work :( 12:07:17 <Terkhen> the source code of that version should come in handy 12:07:54 <CaptObvious> is there a list somewhere of what features are going to be added for the next version? 12:07:55 <drac_boy> 1.5? 0_o 12:08:03 <drac_boy> heh CaptObvious 12:08:17 <Zuu> So maybe one should check the DictatorAI source code and see if it contains hints of what will come in OpenTTD 1.5? :-p 12:08:27 <CaptObvious> NGC3982 - vaccuum tube trains 12:08:37 <NGC3982> oh, ok 12:08:55 <Terkhen> CaptObvious: nope 12:09:00 <CaptObvious> it's insanely expensive 12:09:04 <CaptObvious> like 20k+ per tile for track 12:09:17 <drac_boy> sounds good to me :) 12:09:17 <CaptObvious> but it's reallyreallyreallyreallyreally fast 12:09:20 <Terkhen> well, you can check the revision log to know which features have been added in trunk already 12:09:22 <drac_boy> considering how much you'll earn back anyway 12:09:40 <CaptObvious> plus by that point you're usually sitting on billions 12:09:46 <CaptObvious> so cost really isn't an object 12:10:10 <frosch123> ottd 1.5 fixed that 12:10:23 <NGC3982> CaptObvious: that's ok. 12:10:47 <NGC3982> I notet that when we play on my server, the gameplay usually halt around 2000-2050, since no new trains are available 12:10:59 <CaptObvious> it says on the forum post that it's a combination of maglev + a vaccuum tube to hit really high speeds 12:11:04 <CaptObvious> yet it uses the monorail track 12:11:13 <NGC3982> And yet, he have only tried grf's where we can haul pax. 12:11:14 <NGC3982> ok 12:11:16 <NGC3982> Ok* 12:11:30 <CaptObvious> I've never bothered with passengerws 12:11:33 <CaptObvious> passengers* 12:11:33 <CaptObvious> ever 12:11:51 <Zuu> Play NoCarGoal and get a passenger goal :-) 12:12:06 <CaptObvious> is it a grf or a patch? 12:12:11 <Zuu> neither 12:12:17 <Zuu> its a Game Script 12:12:26 <CaptObvious> is it on bananas? 12:12:26 <Zuu> It only works on nightly/1.3+ 12:12:30 <CaptObvious> oh 12:12:32 <Zuu> But it is on bananas. 12:12:33 <CaptObvious> nevermind then 12:12:42 <Terkhen> nightlies don't bite, you know :P 12:12:45 <NGC3982> I was on the influence that a patch was a game script. 12:12:48 <NGC3982> :) 12:12:54 <CaptObvious> it's a hassle getting my players to download nightlies 12:12:59 <CaptObvious> I just run the server on stable 12:13:05 <Terkhen> oh, for servers it is more of a PITA, yup 12:13:24 <CaptObvious> and I won't put anything on the server that isn't on bananas because that's also a hassle 12:13:26 <CaptObvious> I'm lazy you see 12:13:36 <Terkhen> practical :P 12:13:36 <Zuu> CaptObvious: In OTTDAU I can set up installations that follow any server that use nightlies/stables. 12:13:43 <planetmaker> CaptObvious: it *is* on bananas ;-) 12:13:49 <drac_boy> CaptObvious if you're too lazy to download grf then how did you even download the game in first place? :) 12:13:54 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1ABBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13:56 <CaptObvious> planetmaker - yes, but it requires a nightly 12:13:59 <planetmaker> and for a change, a nightly server might be interesting. You'd have the bleeding edge 12:14:01 <Zuu> And in this case, by 'I', I mean eany user, not just me. 12:14:10 <Zuu> any* 12:14:18 <CaptObvious> drac_boy - it's not about me downloading grfs, it's about the retarded monkies that are most of the playerbase downloading them 12:14:36 <Terkhen> drac_boy: downloading a game and running it is one thing, downloading 3 or 4 files, unpacking them and placing them in the correct folder is tiresome 12:15:01 <drac_boy> CaptObvious likely the same players that have no clue how to build anything..hence why I prefer to not have them :) 12:15:08 <drac_boy> Terkhen unpack? whats that 12:15:10 <CaptObvious> plus I'm trying to attract new players on reddit, I want to keep it as easy as possible to get on 12:15:17 <Terkhen> unzip/untar/unrar 12:15:25 <drac_boy> Terkhen no clue what that is..never had to do it :) 12:15:34 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:15:45 <Terkhen> I doubt it :P 12:16:34 <Terkhen> unless you have been using computers for just a few years and you are using some modern OS that does verything by itself 12:17:05 <drac_boy> is macos and xppro 'modern os' to you? 12:17:11 <CaptObvious> yes 12:17:26 <CaptObvious> anything that supports a mouse is a modern OS :P 12:17:34 <planetmaker> wow. amigaos 12:17:40 <planetmaker> actually... msdos 12:17:41 <drac_boy> CaptObvious then you're probably using windows 3.1? :p 12:17:48 <CaptObvious> windows 3.1 supported mice 12:17:53 <Terkhen> drac_boy: I don't know what is xppro, but the people I know that use macos have been unpacking stuff for sure :P 12:17:58 <Alberth> plain DOS already did :) 12:18:01 <CaptObvious> Terkhen - he means Windows XP Pro 12:18:16 <drac_boy> Terkhen thing to keep in mind is macos only has stuffit and maczip ... nothing in way of other compressions without bugs yet 12:18:30 <CaptObvious> frankly, if you're a serious computer user and you're still on XP, you're doing something wrong. 12:18:34 <Terkhen> and that is not unpacking how? :P 12:18:40 <CaptObvious> drac_boy - OS X supports zip files natively 12:18:43 <Alberth> drac_boy: tar and gzip ? 12:18:51 <drac_boy> CaptObvious its not osx silly 12:18:52 <planetmaker> CaptObvious: osx != macos 12:18:53 <CaptObvious> and tar/gzip files 12:19:01 <drac_boy> and btw I don't see any reason to replace xp yet 12:19:02 <NGC3982> Bah. 12:19:05 <NGC3982> Maglev is boring 12:19:06 <CaptObvious> https://encrypted.google.com/search?oq=macos&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=macos 12:19:13 <drac_boy> especially when it'll cost too much more money otherwise 12:19:14 <CaptObvious> drac_boy - 7 is so much better. 12:19:17 <Terkhen> the process of converting a tar/zip/xz/whatever file into the contents inside it is unpacking, I don't care about the program 12:19:21 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:44e3:9d87:74e:447c] has joined #openttd 12:19:24 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:19:33 <Terkhen> I wasn't talking about those old command line programs :P 12:19:43 <drac_boy> Terkhen well all I have to do is click download link .. close browser .. go to the game folder... and run game .. thats all 12:20:20 <CaptObvious> you set your browser's default download location to ~/.openttd/newgrf? 12:20:44 <Zuu> All I do is to open OTTDAU and pick "last nightly", "last stable" etc. and double click it and it will if necessary upgrade and then start OpenTTD. :-D 12:20:59 <planetmaker> drac_boy: the reason to replace XP is system security. 12:21:09 <CaptObvious> planetmaker - and speed, and stability 12:21:13 <CaptObvious> and game compatibility 12:21:17 <planetmaker> The reason to keep it is some legacy hardware and drivers for very special stuff 12:21:19 <CaptObvious> and the fact that XP is 12 years old 12:21:44 <planetmaker> CaptObvious: that's not an issue. windows 7 is neither faster nor really more stable, I guess 12:21:49 <CaptObvious> it's both. 12:21:58 <planetmaker> haha :-) prove it, please 12:21:58 <CaptObvious> on the same hardware, 7 is faster 12:22:06 <drac_boy> planetmaker not really... xp doesn't have any holes (only idiot users make them) 12:22:25 <drac_boy> CaptObvious no idea what browser's paths are tbh 12:22:41 <CaptObvious> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2355703,00.asp 12:23:23 <CaptObvious> it's at least comparable in speed 12:23:40 <CaptObvious> and it's definitely more stable. I've never had a bluescreen in windows 7 that I haven't caused myself 12:23:46 <CaptObvious> and I've never had an application hang the OS 12:24:10 <Terkhen> it's certainly way more stable, I'm not sure about the speed though 12:24:17 <Rubidium> yay... I'm doing something wrong or I'm not serious... ah well, who cares? 12:24:20 <drac_boy> heh only bsod I've ever seen was on crummy intel gmas with the irq_not_equal then again I usually like to avoid these such gma's in first place 12:24:26 <CaptObvious> I've had 30 day+ uptimes in windows 7 and it feels the same after that time as it did when I started it up 12:24:31 <CaptObvious> XP runs like a dog after a week or so 12:25:27 <CaptObvious> also, XP can't go above directx 9 or IE8 (not that anyone should really be using IE anyway) 12:25:54 <CaptObvious> it's time to let XP die guys. 12:26:00 <Zuu> anyway, you are derailing from the topic of using nightlies for servers :-) 12:26:11 <glx> it's impossible, you need to reboot at least once a month due to updates 12:26:21 <Rubidium> CaptObvious: if only all software that works on XP works on Windows 7 12:26:22 <drac_boy> CaptObvious only if ms would bother making an actual replacement for it 12:26:28 <CaptObvious> glx - updates get applied when I reboot for another reason 12:26:44 <CaptObvious> Rubidium - I've never had an issue with software not working on 7 that worked on XP 12:26:54 <CaptObvious> drac_boy - an actual replacement for what? 12:27:16 <drac_boy> 32/64bit os that doesn't cost a lot compared to even new hardwares 12:27:16 * Rubidium knows at least two suites of applications that don't work on Windows 7 that work on XP 12:27:28 <drac_boy> Rubidium hm interesting 12:27:30 <CaptObvious> drac_boy - windows 7 doesn't cost a lot 12:27:36 <glx> worms world party doesn't work on 7 12:28:02 <drac_boy> CaptObvious well it does...even the suggested street price says so otherwise 12:28:11 <glx> age of empire 2 has some colors problems too on 7 12:28:14 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/bi89I.png <3 12:28:26 <CaptObvious> glx - http://forum.team17.com/showthread.php?t=38883 12:28:45 <drac_boy> hmm glx you remind me, I wonder if 7 even still have any of that colour/screen compactibility mode options or its not there anymore 12:28:59 <Terkhen> windows 7 does not cost a lot? are you trolling or being serious? :P 12:29:00 <Rubidium> but then I may not be a serious user since I have NT4 installed 12:29:00 <CaptObvious> drac_boy - it does 12:29:11 <drac_boy> Terkhen I am serious 12:29:14 <CaptObvious> Terkhen - I'm serious. 12:29:15 <drac_boy> its why I can't bother offering it yet 12:29:42 <CaptObvious> £100 (for professional, which you probably don't need) for software you'll use for YEARS all the time your computer is running 12:29:45 <CaptObvious> that's cheap. 12:29:53 <planetmaker> hm... I'm sure that like "BUG: unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference at 0000000000000000d" is not a good thing :D 12:30:01 <CaptObvious> games cost £30-40 each for maybe 20-30 hours if you're LUCKY 12:30:07 <drac_boy> planetmaker heh sounds like not so 12:30:15 <CaptObvious> planetmaker - it sounds like you broke something 12:30:27 <Terkhen> I'm not buying the hours per € argument for operative systems :) 12:30:48 <CaptObvious> why not? 12:30:52 <drac_boy> Terkhen yeah me neither...it never makes much sense..and beside different users have their own different lengths as well 12:30:58 <Rubidium> CaptObvious: the games I play are significantly cheaper per hour 12:31:05 <CaptObvious> Rubidium - but not as cheap as your OS Is 12:31:06 <CaptObvious> is* 12:31:17 * drac_boy plays a lot of < games .. including beerwares 12:31:20 <CaptObvious> plus, the vast majority of windows 7 sales are OEM, included with new hardware 12:31:25 <Zuu> CaptObvious: Don't play that game with a Linux user :-p 12:31:28 <planetmaker> CaptObvious: you certainly err in your assumptions 12:31:30 <Rubidium> CaptObvious: actually, it's equally expensive 12:31:47 <Rubidium> but I got no clue what my boss pays for running the OS on my work PC 12:31:58 <CaptObvious> nothing, it'll have come with the hardware 12:32:06 <Terkhen> that's false 12:32:10 <planetmaker> ^^ 12:32:24 <CaptObvious> while I agree the hardware is slightly more expensive due to the software being bundled, it's still cheaper than buying the licence 12:32:28 <CaptObvious> Terkhen - why? 12:32:29 <Terkhen> microsoft has signed contracts with the manufacturers 12:32:36 <Terkhen> therefore the cost is still there 12:32:40 <CaptObvious> I know that 12:32:42 <planetmaker> and even cheaper when you don't buy a license 12:32:53 <CaptObvious> planetmaker - that's how I usually aquire my MS operating systems tbh 12:33:01 <CaptObvious> well, I did until I got a job 12:33:13 <frosch123> Zuu: do you also have a diff to make the "reload ai" button work for gs? 12:33:14 <CaptObvious> but since then I haven't needed to buy an OS 12:33:17 <Terkhen> for example, I bought my laptop from a small manufacturer that, of course, does not have any contract with microsoft WRT OEM inclusion 12:33:31 <Zuu> frosch123: No, I use the 'reset' command in the console 12:33:43 <planetmaker> so did I buy my desktop from a similar local shop 12:33:51 <planetmaker> so, no bundling 12:34:01 <Zuu> Or I do "save GSTest" followed by "load GSTest". 12:34:05 <CaptObvious> I build my PCs myself because I don't like paying more money than I should :P 12:34:10 <Terkhen> and I'm not buying the € per time argument because other operative systems are centainly cheaper 12:34:20 <CaptObvious> then use one that barely runs what you need it to run 12:34:30 <CaptObvious> and can take a few days of fighting to get working properly 12:34:40 <CaptObvious> I'm happy with my one that just works tyvm :P 12:34:53 <Terkhen> in this case, the only thing that can explain the extra money you need to pay for windows is that they count on most user thinking like that ^ 12:34:54 <Rubidium> I'm fighting more with paid software than with software that's free 12:35:11 <CaptObvious> Terkhen - I'm a gamer, linux isn't an option for me 12:35:18 <CaptObvious> for the desktop anyway 12:35:30 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host218-143-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 12:35:30 <CaptObvious> I have a linode that I use for web hosting and openttd server 12:35:30 <Terkhen> I did not mention linux :) 12:35:42 <CaptObvious> and my laptop is a mac 12:35:50 <CaptObvious> I'm very much a best tool for the job kind of person 12:35:51 <Zuu> frosch123: I don't see how we would support re-loading the GS in a game. It is probably possible technically, but at the moment its seen as part of the game and cannot be stopped/started/restarted during a running game. 12:36:06 <Terkhen> I'm just saying that if other commercial options for OSes in normal PCs existed, windows would cost a lot less 12:36:12 <CaptObvious> oh of course 12:36:18 <Terkhen> therefore, it is not "cheap" 12:36:19 <drac_boy> Terkhen and I would so love that finally ... :P 12:36:21 <CaptObvious> keep an eye on apple 12:36:30 <Wolf01> hello 12:36:31 <CaptObvious> their marketshare is growing alarmingly fast 12:36:33 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 12:36:52 <Terkhen> since I don't plan to pay double for a laptop, apple is not an option for me 12:36:56 <Rubidium> what's interesting is the amount of computers at my job I installed mingw on just so I could help people with 'problems' that are significantly faster handled by the basic unix tools 12:36:59 <CaptObvious> I love their laptops 12:37:20 <CaptObvious> I wouldn't have a mac as a desktop, but you'll have to pry my macbook pro out of my cold dead fingers 12:38:03 <CaptObvious> most of the time I run windows on it, but I love the hardware 12:38:08 * Zuu tend to help people at work too from time to time using unix tools. 12:38:41 <CaptObvious> my last job we had a few macs in the design department 12:38:48 <CaptObvious> so I enabled SSH on them 12:38:48 <Zuu> That is one of the first thing that get installed after the OS for me :-) 12:39:04 <CaptObvious> and we were doing an inventory of installed software 12:39:09 <Rubidium> the questions that someone would do in Excel or so in half a day and I with a bit of sed/grep/awk magic in half a minute, and then they use that script after that 12:39:12 <CaptObvious> so I SSHed into the macs and did an ls of /Applications 12:39:37 <CaptObvious> and my boss was like "no, I want to check what's actually on the computers, go to them and check" 12:39:39 <frosch123> Zuu: restart is fine, it just annoys me that it closes the debug gui :ÃŒp 12:39:48 <CaptObvious> and I was like "but this is..." "NO. go TO them and check" 12:39:51 * CaptObvious facepalm 12:39:55 <Terkhen> meh, now I want to install linux already 12:40:02 <Terkhen> I miss the commands :P 12:40:14 <Zuu> I have bound Global+ctrl+alt+D to the debug window in my hotkeys.cfg 12:40:27 <CaptObvious> so I had to go and interrupt the users while they were working to get the same file listing I was getting from my desk 12:40:39 <Zuu> Thanks to my last commit, it now shows the GS tab if there are no AIs, before you had to click with the mouse to show the GS tab. 12:41:06 <Zuu> I have considered to add a hotkey hook to the GS button in the AI debug window so that you could bind a global hotkey to that, but have not yet done that. 12:41:55 <CaptObvious> I'd like it in openttd if running costs were an actual thing rather than decoration 12:42:12 <CaptObvious> so you'd have to consider revenue vs cost before running a massive line halfway across the map 12:42:21 <CaptObvious> rather than just knowing the revenue from it will outweigh the costs 12:42:36 <Alberth> your maps are too big :p 12:42:40 <Terkhen> you can adjust the costs with a base costs NewGRF 12:43:00 <CaptObvious> Terkhen - yeah, but it's still not the way the game works 12:43:08 <CaptObvious> there's no dynamics to it 12:43:24 <CaptObvious> if you adjust the base cost you're just decreasing profit or making ALL runs unprofitable and breaking the game 12:43:40 <CaptObvious> I'd really like something like YACD to be included in trunk 12:43:58 <Terkhen> what's the difference between increasing the costs with a newgrf and increasing them inside the game? 12:44:10 <CaptObvious> Terkhen - because I wouldn't want it to be a flat increae 12:44:12 <CaptObvious> increase* 12:44:23 <CaptObvious> I'd want some dynamics there, some actual supply and demand 12:44:32 <CaptObvious> and production limits on industries. 12:44:39 <Alberth> ecs ? 12:44:44 <Terkhen> people would just add stations along the way to keep the running costs flat 12:44:46 <CaptObvious> it's not right that a factory can take as much as you can throw at it 12:45:07 <Alberth> false, there is a limit 12:45:08 * drac_boy points CaptObvious to use non-default industries and find out there is a limit then 12:45:14 <Alberth> and people reach it :p 12:45:19 <Zuu> With GS its possible to do a medium way. The economics is still the same, but the GS could set up goals that you must deliver to certain industries in order to reach the goal. Then you can deliver to others and earn money, but you won't win the game. 12:45:20 <drac_boy> :) 12:45:22 <planetmaker> it's not right that one person shall define what must be right for all other people 12:45:36 <CaptObvious> planetmaker - right, because option dialogs don't exist...oh wait. 12:46:04 <planetmaker> CaptObvious: nor NewGRFs do exist... oh wait 12:46:11 <Terkhen> ^ :P 12:46:22 <CaptObvious> newgrfs can't do the kind of overhaul I'm thinking 12:46:33 <Terkhen> they can't do YACD, the other parts are certainly possible 12:46:36 <drac_boy> need to go for a bit anyhow 12:46:39 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 12:46:40 <CaptObvious> yeah 12:46:41 <Terkhen> and if not, then newgrfs should be expanded 12:47:00 <CaptObvious> I'm sure the intention is to expand newgrf's capabilities over time 12:47:31 <Terkhen> but as a general rule, we do not add options for stuff that can be done for newgrfs, because options are limited to a few possibilities while newgrfs are not 12:47:36 <Zuu> A GS cannot give you money, but it can take money from you (by eg. destroying water tiles), so it could punish you if you deliver to the wrong industries. 12:47:59 <CaptObvious> the option thing was in reference to YACD 12:48:07 <Zuu> There you got a semi-YACD which is possible to implement as a game script for nightlies/1.3 :-) 12:48:09 <CaptObvious> so if YACD was included in trunk, stick it as a flag in advanced options 12:48:25 <CaptObvious> much like YAPF was originally 12:48:28 <Terkhen> WRT limited industries, that has been possible in NewGRFs for many years already, try PBI for example 12:48:29 <Alberth> YACD costs too much CPU time 12:48:40 <Terkhen> YACD already had those settings implemented, the main problem was ^ 12:48:54 <CaptObvious> Alberth - which is why it'd be optional and non-default 12:49:07 <CaptObvious> let people with the horsepower run it if they want to 12:49:22 <Terkhen> no, it would be optional because there would be people that do not want to plan with it 12:49:32 <Terkhen> to play* 12:49:40 <CaptObvious> this is where the "if they want to" comes in 12:49:51 <Terkhen> you would be surprised 12:50:48 <CaptObvious> I may be 12:50:50 <Alberth> CaptObvious: even without yacd they hit the CPU ceiling already 12:51:03 <CaptObvious> Alberth - some people do, yes 12:51:09 <CaptObvious> but others don't 12:51:12 <Terkhen> since OpenTTD is single core, most people do 12:51:17 <Terkhen> and more will in the future :P 12:51:44 <CaptObvious> openttd is running for me now on a 2048x2048 map 12:51:49 <CaptObvious> with about 6 newgrf 12:51:50 <CaptObvious> s 12:51:57 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-170-205-142.range86-170.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 12:52:06 <CaptObvious> on my machine it's 0-1% CPU 12:52:09 <CaptObvious> but it is a network game 12:52:17 <CaptObvious> on the server it's 10-12% 12:52:47 <Terkhen> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive <-- try one of the savegames of openttdcoop's public archive 12:53:12 <V453000> 219 has almost 3000 trains 12:53:18 <V453000> 201 has towns everywhere 12:53:19 <Terkhen> try that one then :P 12:53:22 <V453000> good two for testing 12:53:33 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:55:02 <CaptObvious> right, lunchtime 13:01:08 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:03:56 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:44e3:9d87:74e:447c] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:04:31 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 13:05:47 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:44e3:9d87:74e:447c] has joined #openttd 13:09:46 <CaptObvious> I return 13:09:47 <CaptObvious> with subway 13:13:49 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 13:23:50 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-120-175.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 13:27:24 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:31:46 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-120-175.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:50:11 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 13:54:54 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 13:56:54 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 14:03:40 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-40-46.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 14:06:05 *** Hyronymus1 [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 14:07:01 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:09:18 <frosch123> hmm, weren't gs able to read/change game settings? 14:10:26 <frosch123> ah, GSGameSettings 14:26:19 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-40-46.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:06:18 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 15:07:08 *** Hyronymus1 [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:10:40 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-102-123.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:15:31 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.64.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:28:03 <Sacro> Hmm http://www.novapolis.net/ 15:31:09 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-74-231-147.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:32:30 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:35:36 <frosch123> damn, the amount of syntax errors i produce in squirrel is annoying 15:36:16 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-102-123.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:39:10 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-111-116.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:40:04 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 15:42:47 *** KingPixaIII [~pixa@79-68-100-215.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:44:10 <Alberth> but the language manual is not nice enough to actually read :) 15:44:13 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-74-231-147.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:47:48 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-106-77.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:48:44 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-111-116.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:50:56 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:51:50 <frosch123> the cargo monitors were saved, right? 15:52:13 <frosch123> at least there is a cargomonitor_sl.cpp 15:52:17 <frosch123> so, i just assume so :) 15:52:21 *** KingPixaIII [~pixa@79-68-100-215.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:53:54 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-74-232-27.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 15:59:36 *** KingPixaIII [~pixa@85.210.70.11] has joined #openttd 15:59:53 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-106-77.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:04:26 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-74-232-27.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:19:41 *** alfton [~quassel@126.15.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #openttd 16:21:48 *** Elmux [~Elmux@77-23-51-199-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 16:22:47 <Elmux> Whats about articulated and /or double-decker Busses 16:23:34 <frosch123> they are nice, aren't they? 16:29:03 <V453000> interesting question 16:30:14 <TrueBrain> I like their red colour 16:30:55 <Guest5309> and their wheels 16:30:57 <Guest5309> awesome wheels 16:31:10 *** Guest5309 is now known as Xaroth 16:31:14 <frosch123> sounds as if you ate some 16:31:44 *** Xaroth is now known as Guest5432 16:31:55 <Guest5432> ffs, silly nickserv >_< 16:32:17 <TrueBrain> you my dear sir 16:32:18 <TrueBrain> are fail 16:33:47 *** Guest5432 is now known as Xaroth 16:36:11 <Xaroth> thar 16:40:45 *** mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:42:52 *** mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has quit [] 16:46:38 *** mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:47:51 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1ABBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:47:56 <Alberth> yep, cargo monitors should be saved 16:49:46 <Alberth> but how you use that from an AI, I don't know. I guess by iterating over them :) 16:56:56 <frosch123> hmm, when does squirrel do integer or real divisons? 17:00:46 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:01:34 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-101-84-131.customer.schedom-europe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:06:06 *** Biolunar__ [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:07:08 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:09:57 *** Guest5434 [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:11:43 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:13:08 *** Guest5434 [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:14:55 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:14:58 *** Biolunar__ [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:32:54 <planetmaker> frosch123, now, I'm toying around with gnome3... to me it looks much better than all people constantly say it is 17:33:37 <frosch123> well, at least half a year ago i checked last :) 17:38:00 <Terkhen> it looks nice 17:38:04 <Terkhen> the problem is usage :P 17:38:45 <frosch123> planetmaker: do you already have an environment to compile ottd 17:39:13 <planetmaker> not yet 17:39:15 <frosch123> when i checked last the default package manager was so crappy, that it searched only descriptions and not package names 17:39:36 <frosch123> i failed to find a searchname to make "gcc" show up 17:40:19 <planetmaker> but let's see... 17:40:21 <frosch123> (well, the first thing was at least my explanation for the behaviour) 17:40:43 <planetmaker> I've spend the last hours trying to get sound going... without avail. and #debian-next seems to have currently only idlers but no help 17:41:35 <frosch123> no idea, sound worked out of the box for me 17:42:14 <frosch123> only the dual screen setup with 3d acceleration was a bit tricky 17:42:40 <NGC3982> Sound should not really be an issue with normal Debian distributions. 17:42:48 <NGC3982> planetmaker: What hardware are we talking about? 17:44:05 <planetmaker> frosch123, well, the dual screen now works... dual was not an issue. But nvidia in itself 17:44:22 <frosch123> well, yeah, that's what i meant :) 17:44:31 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1689/ NGC3982 17:44:55 <planetmaker> which currently looks running like http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1690/ 17:45:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24509 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt korean.txt): 17:45:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by NG 17:45:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by telk5093 17:57:47 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but then the computer name just smells 18:00:33 <Rubidium> what happens if you trash pulse? 18:01:38 <planetmaker> thought about that... I guess doesn't hurt to try :D 18:01:39 <frosch123> hmm, do {STRING} parameters work in goal texts? 18:01:47 <planetmaker> but now openttd at least compiles :-) 18:02:17 <planetmaker> needed a mere 250MByte deps installed ... (but including boost for grfcodec) 18:03:21 <Rubidium> boost and icu are huge 18:03:26 <Rubidium> an gcc isn't tiny either 18:03:37 <planetmaker> gcc was already installed 18:05:00 <Rubidium> good ;) 18:05:43 <Rubidium> my gcc 4.8 is even 300+ MiB 18:05:56 <planetmaker> this comes with 4.7.1 18:06:45 <Rubidium> got 4.7 as well 18:07:26 <planetmaker> I'd be surprised if you hadn't :-) 18:12:11 *** namad7 [aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:13:18 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:14:15 *** Elmux [~Elmux@77-23-51-199-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:16:19 <frosch123> hmm, if i wouldn't be testing my gs, i would feel totally noobish to play a game and cheating in such a way :p 18:16:36 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:16:44 <Alberth> :) 18:16:48 <Alberth> hi andy 18:27:42 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-173-71-180-190.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 18:37:32 <andythenorth> lo 18:37:54 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:38:26 <andythenorth> what did I miss? 18:38:32 <andythenorth> there are > 500 lines of log today :P 18:39:34 <Terkhen> irc conversations, I guess 18:39:40 <Terkhen> most of them offtopic 18:41:02 *** pjpe [b8af1d68@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:41:07 *** pjpe [b8af1d68@ircip1.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 18:41:44 <andythenorth> Terkhen: so...why are industries hard for new scenario format (list?) 18:42:27 <Terkhen> because it is hard to decide on a NewGRF and climate agnostic way to define their type and positions 18:42:28 <Terkhen> bbl 18:50:12 <frosch123> hmm, i need more debug output 18:54:16 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-170-205-142.range86-170.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:03:55 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 19:07:58 *** BenTrein [~bentrein@82-171-91-179.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd 19:19:17 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 19:29:28 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.71.79] has joined #openttd 19:29:30 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0/20120824154833]] 19:29:54 *** BenTrein [~bentrein@82-171-91-179.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:30:19 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-170-205-142.range86-170.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 19:30:46 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:35:15 *** KingPixaIII [~pixa@85.210.70.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:07:31 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 20:07:37 <drac_boy> hi 20:08:51 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 20:09:27 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:51 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:30:04 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 20:30:51 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 20:31:54 <Wolf01> 'night all 20:32:00 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host218-143-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:42:51 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ffcd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 20:44:39 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd [] 20:51:09 <Terkhen> good night 20:52:09 *** kamnet [4cb15be2@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:53:42 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus] 20:56:11 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 21:11:02 <Warod> w 46 21:12:33 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7000.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:58 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:15:23 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A1BA3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:16:30 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1ABBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:16:37 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 21:20:38 <NGC3982> Err. 21:20:41 <NGC3982> What just happend 21:21:04 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/Uedav.png 21:21:06 <NGC3982> That looks broken. 21:22:09 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/HO2Wj.png 21:22:14 <NGC3982> Holy smokes. 21:24:10 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BA3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Progman] 21:24:25 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BA3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:30:52 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-158-32.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a newgrf error 21:33:50 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:33:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but since you don't use the builtin screenshot methods, you deny us the set of used newgrfs 21:44:18 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:48:18 *** welshdragon [~anonymous@cpc8-oxfd20-2-0-cust37.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:50:08 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: I was to solve it properly, until i realized that the error was only visible while looking at graphics trough a VNC server. 21:50:21 <NGC3982> Wich i for some reason forgot i used. 21:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> why would that make it less of an issue? 21:53:05 <NGC3982> The problem was non-OpenTTD related. 21:53:13 <NGC3982> And solved by simply stop using a VNC server. 21:54:03 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: a workaround isn't a solution 21:54:18 <NGC3982> Im not using the VNC server for actual gameplay 21:54:26 <Fawksie> Jesus wept 22:00:56 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that was not the point 22:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the point was that there is an error, and instead of investigating the reason you're doctoring the symptoms 22:02:13 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-170-205-142.range86-170.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:08 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-120-175.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:10:51 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:11:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 22:14:44 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:17:01 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:19:58 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.79.78] has joined #openttd 22:21:48 <andythenorth> wtf? 22:21:54 <andythenorth> why am I not asleep? 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