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00:00:48 <Terkhen> good night 00:05:00 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:06:08 <kormer> ok if my earlier questions weren't stupid enough, where does VS put the compiled exe after a successful build? 00:07:07 <michi_cc> objs\{win32,x64}\{Debug,Release}\openttd.exe 00:10:04 <Eddi|zuHause> VS has a "run this program" button, which should work :) 00:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess nobody was bored enough in the last 5 years to figure out how to copy the exe at the end of the compile run 00:11:27 <kormer> well I stupidly asked it to recompile, so I'll have to wait to look there 00:22:43 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:27:31 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6B6C9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:40 <kormer> success! finally 00:38:23 <Supercheese> What is this, the OTTD wiki doesn't use disambiguation pages? 00:38:32 <Supercheese> I thought those were wiki staples 00:42:00 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:44:19 <Supercheese> How am I supposed to disambiguate users now? 00:45:47 *** Ott [d5c0131a@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 00:48:47 *** Celestar_ [~vici@mnch-4d04f0ac.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 00:55:46 *** Celestar [~vici@mnch-4d04d28f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:57:16 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@84.40.82.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:58:28 *** brambles_ [lechuck@s0.barwen.ch] has joined #openttd 00:58:45 *** brambles [lechuck@s0.barwen.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:20 *** guru3 [~guru3@000128ea.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:40 *** guru3 [~guru3@000128ea.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 01:01:33 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-098-190.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 01:15:24 *** MinchinWeb [~6034fac3@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 01:15:39 <MinchinWeb> Anyone have any experience with recolour sprits? 01:19:13 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody has ever "experience" with anything 01:19:51 <Supercheese> I've never used custom recolor sprites 01:29:11 <MinchinWeb> hmm... I guess I'll keep reading and see if I make any headway... 01:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> thank you for wasting all of our time, anyway. 01:53:24 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@46-239-219-51.tal.is] has joined #openttd 02:10:46 *** [1]Karan [~Karan@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #openttd 02:11:04 <[1]Karan> Hi 02:11:50 <[1]Karan> Is there something that would build track instead of me in multiplayer?? 02:12:37 <[1]Karan> I need to know 02:14:03 <kormer> You could enable ai's, and then join an AI corp. 02:14:17 <kormer> That can get out of hand though, so use caution 02:15:30 <[1]Karan> I was thinking something that i can use in real multiplayer? 02:15:53 <[1]Karan> If i could just point from station to station and track would been build? 02:15:53 <Supercheese> You can use AIs in multiplayer, no? 02:16:02 <Supercheese> I've personally not tried 02:16:02 <[1]Karan> on servers? 02:16:18 <Supercheese> Server host might be the one who configures AIs 02:16:36 <kormer> The server admin needs to set it up, yes, and the AI is never going to do what you want it to anyways 02:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have AI companies, but they cannot be controlled by a human 02:16:51 <Supercheese> Ah, nevermind then 02:17:11 <[1]Karan> dont you want to play? 02:17:15 <kormer> Someday I'd like to try designing a "helper" ai that does useful tasks for the human rather than just building all on their own. 02:17:18 <[1]Karan> some city builder chalenges? 02:17:36 <[1]Karan> I think if there was track building tools 02:17:40 <kormer> exactly like Karan said, it'd be awesome if you could just build two stations, and the AI builds a route between them. 02:17:42 <[1]Karan> like finding optimal path.. 02:18:10 <[1]Karan> it couldnt be so hard theres are some path finding algorithms already 02:18:52 <[1]Karan> btw dont you know some interesting chatrooms? 02:19:20 <kormer> oh yea, I looked into it long enough to realize it was doable, I just haven't had time to do it. 02:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> AI pathfinding works as long as you assume the map is mostly empty. once a significant amount is blocked, it'll fail 02:21:45 <[1]Karan> how does ai build then? 02:22:18 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:22:19 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't... just try a map with lots of water 02:22:28 <[1]Karan> i never played with compiuter but compiuter buildds tracks? 02:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and several AI players 02:23:10 <[1]Karan> someone just didnt have the time to implemented it right way 02:23:16 <[1]Karan> :) 02:23:33 <[1]Karan> zuHause do you know some chat rooms? 02:24:06 <Eddi|zuHause> like, have i met any? 02:24:23 <[1]Karan> I need to find someone somewhere who knows answer on my question.. but my question never been easy ones 02:24:49 <[1]Karan> only few ppl having the answer and i dont know how to find them 02:25:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that i really can't help you with... 02:25:20 <[1]Karan> ok 02:25:47 <[1]Karan> is irc crypted? 02:28:26 <Flygon> encrypted? 02:28:40 <Flygon> Depends on how you connect to the server, and if the server supports it, and if the client supports it... 02:30:29 *** Superuser [~superuser@host81-129-133-93.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 02:40:44 <[1]Karan> Do anyone want to join with me City builder chalenge?? I never won one 02:43:40 <[1]Karan> How can i find list of all channels on irc? 02:43:57 <[1]Karan> i mean servers 02:58:39 <MinchinWeb> if you want an 'AI' to build a track for you, you probably want to use a GameScript 02:59:52 <MinchinWeb> the problem is the pathfinding... the computer can figure it out, but it takes a really long time 03:02:29 <MinchinWeb> pathfinding time typically grows exponentially with distance 03:08:31 *** DabuYu [DoubleYou@128.250.79.165] has joined #openttd 03:28:39 *** MinchinWeb [~6034fac3@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> ... that is of course total nonsense 03:45:31 <Eddi|zuHause> pathfinding is one of the few things in information theory that has a linear upper bound in the number of nodes in the graph 04:14:54 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-156-148.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:16:55 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d083e0a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 04:20:31 *** tneo [~tneo@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:20:46 *** Yexo [~Yexo@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:20:56 *** Yexo [~Yexo@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 04:20:56 *** tneo [~tneo@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 04:24:03 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db0ed9e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:25:17 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-156-148.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 04:30:39 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye !] 04:51:46 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:52:13 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 05:09:05 *** [1]Karan [~Karan@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 05:59:09 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 06:00:33 *** Pokka [~Octomom@d58-106-19-54.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 06:32:48 *** wakou2 [~stephen@host109-145-49-167.range109-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 06:46:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD466E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 06:46:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4080.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:53:00 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@84.40.82.221] has joined #openttd 07:23:28 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@84.40.82.221] has quit [Quit: Tvel] 07:26:22 *** mseidl [~aaa@p5DCE6A46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:30:01 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0097ae.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:32:06 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 07:57:47 *** Twofish [~Twofish@0001308f.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 07:59:21 * peter1138 await the arrival of coffee 07:59:57 <Twofish> Does it "arrive"? 08:00:28 <peter1138> it does if the wifey brings it 08:00:53 <Twofish> Lucky you ;) I usually need to get it myself :/ 08:01:05 <peter1138> i probably will too in this case 08:01:41 <Twofish> Just arrived at work. Could do with some coffee too, but got to get it myself here aswell... 08:02:55 <Twofish> ... so, just checking that everything is up before taking some long minutes to get a cup and some coffee :) 08:05:36 <peter1138> ff 08:05:38 <peter1138> hmm 08:07:00 <peter1138> all keys now working 08:07:03 <peter1138> except } 08:12:06 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:15:03 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:15:08 <andythenorth> might as well jump 08:15:24 <peter1138> do, de, do, do de, do de do dum duuuuum 08:15:35 <Supercheese> Bungee jump? 08:17:11 <andythenorth> Monday morning Van Halen innit 08:22:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6B6C9.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 08:25:10 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:27:10 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 08:34:29 *** mseidl [~aaa@p5DCE6A46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:58:12 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 09:03:48 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6B6C9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:55 <Pokka> isn't it 09:04:35 <Pokka> deffo need newsmoke 09:05:06 <Pokka> with big american steam engines, and "big" diagonals, the steam particles are now generated too low :o 09:12:42 <andythenorth> newnewgrfneweffects 09:12:45 <Pokka> yes 09:17:03 <Supercheese> +1 09:19:26 <V453000> what are big diagonals? :o 09:19:46 <Pokka> http://pikkarail.com/openttd/a-matter-of-perspective/ 09:21:35 <V453000> never cared about those values :D I just draw how it feels at that moment 09:24:25 <V453000> also for vehicles which are not with square roof, it is a bit hard to tell :P 09:24:42 <Pokka> true 09:25:39 <V453000> either way I think keeping the heights the same of both diagonals and side views is just fine 09:26:45 <Pokka> most of the MUs and such in NUTS seem to be drawn that way, I had to hunt through to find that steam engine ;) 09:27:35 <V453000> those steam engines are a bit weird, those are one of the last things remaining from version 0.0.1, I intend to redraw those 09:27:53 <V453000> I think the diagonal view is a bit weird 09:28:10 <V453000> height-wise, not sure 09:28:37 * Pokka shrugs 09:28:43 <Pokka> mb will tell me I'm doing it wrong, either way 09:29:25 <Pokka> and with the lighting too, I'm pretty much just mirroring diagonals :P 09:29:32 <Supercheese> :O 09:29:38 <V453000> personally I think it is very hard to make a convention especially if you consider those small things like such a steamer, because sometimes the one pixel can be missing, sometimes not 09:29:47 <V453000> Pokka: me too, almost always :D 09:29:51 <Pokka> life's too short and company colour shades too few :) 09:30:08 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:24 <Supercheese> 32bpp, full spectrum of brightnesses ;) 09:30:26 <V453000> shades are okay, but I just dont think it is worth drawing that 09:30:50 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 09:30:52 <V453000> in most cases anyway 09:32:33 <Supercheese> Well, good night folks 09:32:40 <Supercheese> hasta mañana 09:32:44 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130215130331]] 09:34:59 <andythenorth> mirroring diagonals 09:35:01 <andythenorth> shameful 09:35:11 <andythenorth> you'd never find that in the original graphics :P 09:35:16 <Pokka> nope 09:35:23 <andythenorth> not in some vehicles 09:35:27 <andythenorth> nor entire houses 09:36:01 * andythenorth to the work 09:36:03 <andythenorth> bye 09:36:04 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 09:40:22 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-71-172.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: DDR is not Dance Dance Revolution.] 09:44:32 <V453000> Pokka: big steamers ... they sort of keep the height 09:44:51 <V453000> I believe they come from the template below them (the caterpillar with a face) 09:44:56 <V453000> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/RailICEsteam_2.png 09:45:50 <Pokka> yeah 09:46:20 <V453000> but my point is, if you inspect it closely, sometimes it is shifted a pixel here and there or such, just cause it fits more in that situation 09:46:30 <V453000> so rules ~whatever :) 09:46:42 <Pokka> oh, absolutely :) 09:47:17 <Pokka> but if you look at, for example, the template image mb just linked to in a thread... the diagonals of the template are lower than the horizontal :) 09:47:38 <Pokka> so, inasmuch as mb's template is "right", "right" is wrong. :P 09:48:23 <V453000> :D which thread btw? 09:48:44 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-092-078-248-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 09:49:39 <Pokka> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=64507 09:52:44 <V453000> right :) 09:53:19 <V453000> most of my vehicles come from the caterpillar template, but some differ and I dont even know which anymore tbh 09:53:40 <V453000> I usually just make some "convention" for trains which are connecting together so they fit nicely 09:54:32 <V453000> my top favourite template is the maglev from NUTS actually, making the trains fatter 09:55:14 <V453000> for 4/8 wagon it means it is as wide as long 09:55:48 <V453000> which means you dont have to mirror diagonals because they are automatic if you make the sides the same :D 09:56:02 <V453000> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/maglevhopper.png 09:56:32 <V453000> 1 sprite for 4 directions ftw 09:58:18 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has joined #openttd 09:59:36 <V453000> and to the topic, the -- sprites are actually 1px LOWER than the diagonals :D 10:00:04 <Pokka> omg inconsistency :) 10:00:15 <V453000> admittedly they dont look too square in that view, but that always gets deformed 10:05:32 <Pokka> yes, the difference in vehicle length between the diagonal and horizontal is not anything we can do anything about, unfortunately 10:08:22 <planetmaker> I really wonder whether there's no way to properly-sized vehicles in the diagonals... 10:08:49 <Pokka> too many knock-on effects, I think 10:08:50 <planetmaker> ... but I've no real good idea to tackle that even conceptually 10:08:59 <planetmaker> yes... :S 10:09:05 <Pokka> not least of which would be that at the moment, two full-length vehicles == one tile 10:10:00 <Pokka> it's part of the charm... wouldn't be TTD if you fixed it :P 10:10:15 <planetmaker> he :D 10:11:04 <V453000> +1 :) 10:20:49 *** smallfly [d95909cd@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 10:21:42 *** smallfly [d95909cd@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [] 10:39:01 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 10:40:16 *** joey8 [~JoeEvans@host86-131-147-58.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 10:42:15 <joey8> hi - ttd 1.2.3 can anyone tell me how to stop those annoying blue panel messages with info on "message from manufacturers" please 10:42:27 <joey8> i have switched off all other message yet this one still displays 10:45:16 <V453000> shouldnt you be rather happy you get a vehicle earlier? :D 10:45:31 <V453000> I dont think you can disable that message however 10:45:55 <V453000> I assume it got annoying because you added a shitload of vehicle sets 10:46:41 <peter1138> dynamicengines ... remove it? 10:46:58 <peter1138> though ukrs addons might conflict with ukrs then :p 10:47:47 <joey8> yup 10:49:00 * joey8 sighs 10:49:04 <joey8> thanx anyway 10:49:39 <V453000> removing features doesnt mean it becomes idiotproof peter1138 :P 10:50:03 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 10:50:06 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 10:51:18 <V453000> also honestly most train sets massively benefit from having a friend in the game with them 10:55:50 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-16-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:59:20 <Pokka> joey8: if you accept one and then don't build it, you won't get any more for a while. 10:59:42 <joey8> ah really ok thanx 11:01:14 <V453000> really? :o 11:01:28 <V453000> I didnt know there is any condition about that 11:03:03 <Pokka> http://wiki.openttd.org/Vehicles 11:03:08 <Pokka> "If you accept an exclusive use offer but don't bother to build any of the new vehicle type, you won't get any more trial offers for the next 5 years." 11:03:25 <Pokka> original TTD feature :) 11:03:42 <V453000> thats nice 11:04:01 <joey8> thanx very much pokka ã 11:04:26 <peter1138> Pokka, whether that actually works properly in ottd is another matter ;) 11:04:45 <V453000> :DDD 11:04:48 <Pokka> I assume that all info on the OpenTTD wiki is 100% accurate, peter1138 11:04:50 <V453000> does it then? 11:05:36 <jonty-comp> wikis are always 100% accurate, it's like the definition of a wiki 11:06:03 <V453000> except always? :P 11:06:46 <Pokka> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=52714 planetmaker seems to think it works. 11:17:48 <V453000> I would believe him then 11:26:49 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:43:30 <peter1138> maybe he'd read the wiki :) 12:48:28 <Pokka> maybe your mother reads the news on channel 4 12:51:27 <Pokka> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5484 12:51:31 <Pokka> he's right you know :) 12:58:09 *** __ln__ [~lauri@dyn-xdsl-83-150-116-30.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:01:39 *** __ln__ [~lauri@dyn-xdsl-83-150-116-30.nebulazone.fi] has joined #openttd 13:54:33 *** andythenorth [~Andy@rubberductions.plus.com] has joined #openttd 14:10:57 <Pokka> look out, it's andythenorth 14:11:10 <jonty-comp> i much prefer bobbythesouth 14:11:47 <Pokka> filthy 14:11:56 <andythenorth> unruly 14:12:06 <Pokka> and I mean that most sincerely, I really do 14:17:52 <andythenorth> are you genuine? o_O 14:18:50 <Pokka> yes 14:18:55 <Pokka> like a a plague of German knee zeppelins 14:19:29 <andythenorth> you have those now? 14:20:37 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 14:22:17 *** andythenorth [~Andy@rubberductions.plus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 14:22:57 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has quit [Quit: Tvel] 14:27:47 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 14:34:36 *** joey8 [~JoeEvans@host86-131-147-58.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:35:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <Pokka> not least of which would be that at the moment, two full-length vehicles == one tile <-- well the obvious solution to that is to shorten the - and | views instead of making the / and \ views longer 14:51:18 <V453000> Pokka: I dared to reply to your blog article :P 14:51:26 <Pokka> good job :P 14:52:20 <V453000> you might find some parts of it useful :) 14:52:36 <V453000> hopefully 14:59:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@rubberductions.plus.com] has joined #openttd 15:00:41 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:00:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see any reply, is it stuck in some moderation queue or something? 15:00:54 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 15:01:25 <V453000> you might be observing a wrong post :D I replied to the older one 15:01:42 <V453000> http://pikkarail.com/openttd/state-of-the-onion-a-history-and-future-of-my-newgrfs/ diz 15:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> ah 15:02:39 <andythenorth> talking on the internet, not on tt-forums 15:02:44 * andythenorth is perplexed 15:02:48 <andythenorth> how does that work? :) 15:03:29 <V453000> im replying to the post not to some damn tt-f :P 15:03:50 <andythenorth> V453000: this is nice http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3593/EngineTable.png 15:04:05 <andythenorth> graphically as well as organising-ly 15:04:26 <V453000> thanks :) spent like 4 days making it 15:06:27 <peter1138> far too much effort 15:08:03 <V453000> effort you like doing is okay I guess :P 15:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> how is your effort doing a similar table for each of the CETS selections going? :p 15:08:52 <andythenorth> can you do one for Squid please 15:08:56 <andythenorth> with a nice background texture 15:08:57 <andythenorth> ta 15:09:03 <V453000> .. 15:09:10 <andythenorth> the set has a structure, I'll let you figure it out though ;) 15:09:15 <V453000> Maybe not? :P 15:09:19 <andythenorth> have it done by 5pm 15:09:20 <V453000> :DDD ok 15:09:23 <andythenorth> or you're fired 15:09:29 <andythenorth> etc 15:09:33 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: are 90% trains green boxes so far? :D 15:09:51 <Eddi|zuHause> more like 95% :) 15:10:16 <V453000> CETS table 15:10:17 <V453000> tada http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/111926-gimp-pattern-out-of-boredom/ 15:10:31 <V453000> million of trains 15:10:47 <andythenorth> CETS is big eh? :D 15:25:43 <Elukka> CETS still happening? 15:25:53 <Pokka> what's a CETS? 15:26:00 <Elukka> central european train set 15:26:10 <Elukka> i drew a few sprites for it once upon a time but i failed to be terribly productive 15:26:35 <Elukka> i still really want to play it, real length coaches and locomotives are the best thing :P 15:27:42 <Pokka> V453000, your ideas are good, but with 10CC I'm not at all aiming for "as many options as possible". ;) 15:28:23 <V453000> I expected you could get inspired by some of them Pokka, not try to replicate/challenge as many as possible :P 15:29:10 <Pokka> well, that is to say 15:29:49 <Pokka> 10CC is almost like each set is one of your "classes" :) so the gameplay and optimal strategy is different depending on which set you use 15:30:10 <Pokka> whether that will be interesting remains to be seen :) 15:32:33 <peter1138> brup 15:33:26 *** kormer [~kormer@c-68-55-166-242.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:35:05 *** LuHa [~harny@14.50.173.216] has joined #openttd 15:40:11 <V453000> right :) 15:41:21 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:35 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 15:43:04 <Eddi|zuHause> http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/newgrf_random_seed.diff <-- so, how broken is this idea? 15:44:54 <planetmaker> what's the use, Eddi|zuHause ? 15:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: offering a "random" choice to the CETS parameters 15:45:42 <planetmaker> like a global random value? Hm 15:45:49 <planetmaker> Might be interesting 15:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, this would be global var 0x26 15:46:15 *** tracerpt [4d565a37@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 15:46:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the question is, is this value initialised already during grf activation stages? 15:46:18 *** chester_ [~chester@93-80-60-10.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 15:46:31 <tracerpt> hi all 15:47:08 <planetmaker> At least the random_seed has a value before that, I assume. But yes, needs checking 15:47:21 <planetmaker> But you can explicitly set it in the map gen window... so... should be known 15:47:45 <planetmaker> so should exist at the very start of mapgen 15:47:54 * Pokka too would very much like a universal seed available to newgrf 15:48:39 <Pokka> universal/global 15:48:51 <andythenorth> what would we do with it? o_O 15:48:52 <jonty-comp> makes sense 15:49:02 <jonty-comp> seed all the random parameters in your grf with it 15:49:12 <Pokka> :] 15:49:13 <jonty-comp> then if someone wants that exact combination of boxcars for whatever reason 15:49:18 <jonty-comp> they can use that seed 15:49:26 <Pokka> yeah. not that. :P 15:49:31 <jonty-comp> depending on other parameters of course 15:49:38 <jonty-comp> BUT I WANT THAT EXACT COMBINATION OF BOXCARS 15:49:47 * jonty-comp tantrums 15:49:54 <Pokka> but it would let me have a "random" option for each player's train set in 10CC, for example, andy. 15:50:08 <planetmaker> Of course it should be clearly noted, that a seed does not guarantee anything to be in whatever shape or form... but yes... 15:50:30 * Pinkbeast owes the 10CC post a reply 15:50:37 <planetmaker> ... should not boil down to "do until you have a random seed ending in 16" in order to get a behaviour "I need" 15:50:39 <andythenorth> ho ho 15:50:50 <planetmaker> which is what I would fear would happen 15:51:13 <Pokka> we need a name for this 15:51:18 <Pokka> lakie's law? :) 15:51:19 <andythenorth> madness? 15:51:56 <Pokka> "I'm reluctant to add this feature because newgrf authors will use it to break the game" 15:52:03 <planetmaker> :-) 15:52:14 <Pokka> happens every time ;) 15:53:14 <Pokka> is the map seed even stored in the savegame, or is it thrown away after generation? 15:53:16 <planetmaker> I call it "thinking it through": looking at a feature from all sides one can think of and assessing the implications 15:53:25 <planetmaker> the seed remains known 15:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Pokka: it's stored 15:53:28 <Pokka> if it's stored, all you need to do is give newgrf access to it 15:53:31 <peter1138> i think it's stored, but it's not used 15:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you can get it from command line 15:53:50 <planetmaker> you can use it for the restart(?) command 15:53:58 <planetmaker> and what eddi says 15:54:08 <peter1138> but if you have the random seed you can cheat by finding where the diamonds are on your local pc 15:54:15 <peter1138> hmm 15:54:20 <peter1138> no that's minecraft 15:54:28 <planetmaker> but only when you want to accept blue wagons, peter1138 ;-) 15:54:54 <Pokka> planetmaker: my response to lakie's argument is that I can already make a newgrf full of vehicles which have 1hp, a 1 year lifespan and cost a million dollars. 15:55:04 <Pokka> but no-one will use it 15:55:14 <Pokka> and nor will they use any other grf I write that does stupid things 15:55:30 <Pokka> so don't worry about newgrf authors doing stupid things, the worst they can do is make it so no-one uses their grf :) 15:55:35 <peter1138> erm 15:55:39 <peter1138> actually 15:55:45 <peter1138> if any grf is labelled pikka 15:55:52 <peter1138> everyone will just use it 15:56:05 <Pokka> maybe for a little while, peter1138 :P 15:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't use Pikkas grfs!! :p 15:56:28 <andythenorth> me neither 15:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> (actually, i do use av8) 15:56:34 *** Twofish [~Twofish@0001308f.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> (but i hate planes) 15:56:45 <peter1138> only stupid things to worry about are those that cause desyncs 15:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (actually, i mostly hate airports) 15:58:11 <planetmaker> Pokka, that goes on quite a tangent - and is no argument in any favour of anything 15:58:15 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it shouldn't if it's made sure that the random seed is set before grf activation. possibly it's Bad(TM) to use it to modify the action14, although that may be problematic already 15:58:21 <planetmaker> As it would argue "add any shit I can think of" similarily 15:59:59 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i was talking about in general 16:00:03 <planetmaker> the question which IMHO must be answered is "is there another way for the same effect which is better"? 16:00:31 <planetmaker> e.g. giving a random value to each newgrf which is generated by OpenTTD based on the randomseed 16:00:44 <planetmaker> but not immediately known 16:01:44 <planetmaker> that for instance wouldn't make a difference to the newgrf developer. But for the end user experience - as in it being seemingly "more random" 16:02:14 <planetmaker> and possibly gives different results also on the order of NewGRFs. 16:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5487 16:08:57 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:16:14 <Pokka> a quasi-random value is a quasi-random value, planetmaker 16:16:26 <Pokka> but I'd say there's some benefit to every grf having access to the same one 16:17:19 <peter1138> now limit it to 1 bit 16:17:48 <Pokka> that would be less beneficial :) 16:18:17 *** andythenorth [~Andy@rubberductions.plus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 16:19:02 <Pokka> planetmaker: it's not meant to be an argument in favour of anything 16:19:30 <Pokka> merely an argument to counter "what I would fear would happen" 16:19:50 <planetmaker> but it doesn't counter that 16:20:07 <Pokka> maybe I misunderstood what you meant, then 16:21:23 <planetmaker> I want to avoid something like "I need a random value ending in X for newgrf x and at the same time ending in Y for NewGRF y in order to get it 'right'" 16:21:44 <Pokka> oh, from a player's point of view? 16:21:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so every grf would not get "seed" but "random^(n+1)(seed)" where n is the position in the grf list? 16:21:54 <planetmaker> I don't see that game being possible with map values... 16:22:07 <planetmaker> maybe, yes, Eddi|zuHause 16:22:34 <planetmaker> Pokka, yes. That was my concern. 16:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and a^n is calling the a function recursively n times 16:22:38 <planetmaker> :D 16:23:15 <Pokka> well, personally, I wouldn't use it for anything "obvious" that I didn't also give the player the option to set manually, because otherwise I agree, players would do that. 16:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> same for me, but one might as well do it "right" the first time around :) 16:23:54 <Pokka> ie, the thing I'd use it for immediately would be parameters with options like "A, B, C, D, random" 16:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so... how does this random system work? 16:24:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Pokka: yes 16:24:39 <planetmaker> sure, Pokka, and in that I see no problem at all. On the contrary 16:25:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Pokka: but i see planetmaker's two points, 1) people "cheating" by easily abusing the internals (weak point), 2) "correlation" between two grfs which read the same bits of the random seed 16:26:19 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, iirc - without looking it up again - the randomseed defines a starting number for the random generator. And then based on that subsequently random numbers can be issued... mind there's two random numbers: one for things which need be desync-safe, one for stuff where it doesn't matter 16:26:39 <planetmaker> we definitely want the first kind 16:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, we need a third kind, one where we provide a new intitial random seed 16:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> then we can reproduce the random number exactly every time the variable is read, so we don't need to store anything 16:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but what i actually wanted to know is: where in the code are these random functions defined? 16:28:56 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, one initial one suffices, if the number we generate from it follows a clear algorithm 16:29:02 <planetmaker> something like you suggested 16:29:54 <planetmaker> core/random_func.hpp and friends, I'd say 16:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, hpp 16:30:18 <planetmaker> there's also a cpp 16:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that explains why my grep didn't return anything :p 16:31:10 <planetmaker> I grepped for "Interactive" :D 16:31:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i grepped in *.h 16:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so, i make a new Randomizer(); and then random.Next(n)? 16:33:48 *** mseidl [~aaa@p5DCE636C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 16:35:41 <peter1138> pointless 16:36:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean? 16:38:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't seem to access the "grf position in list" property, though 16:40:36 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-092-078-248-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> might be better to put the seed in a member in GRFFile 16:41:12 <planetmaker> I'm not too much worried about all newgrfs getting the same number... that actually might be beneficial. 16:41:52 <planetmaker> though each its own... doesn't hurt... maybe the random number for a grf would then simply need storing. 16:42:03 <planetmaker> And each NewGRF is assigned one upon map generation, that's it 16:42:28 <planetmaker> then the normal random number generators need not be changed and is just called once for each newgrf 16:47:44 <Pokka> one global and one per grf would cover all bases? ;) 16:50:05 <planetmaker> yes 16:50:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like we run out of global variables any time soon :p 16:50:24 <tracerpt> Is there a list on the compatibility of NewGRF's? In the game where I'm testing all this new stuff I downloaded, some don't seem to be activated, although they are active on the list 16:50:50 <planetmaker> there's no such list, tracerpt 16:51:02 <tracerpt> guess it's hit and miss then :) 16:51:12 <planetmaker> but any newgrf you can download ingame *should* work. but maybe not with another newgrf you want to use concurrently 16:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> tracerpt: each NewGRF may or may not have its own list what it is compatible with 16:51:33 <planetmaker> e.g. you usually never can use two different industry newgrfs. And all pikka grfs need a parameter set to work properly 16:51:35 <tracerpt> Yeah, I've seen some with warnings 16:52:02 <tracerpt> i'm using FIRS 16:53:22 <tracerpt> really liked it, there isn't a dull moment ingame anymore 16:55:34 <tracerpt> back when the original TT was released I translated the game to portuguese so my dad could play, all this new stuff, too confusing for me lol 16:55:48 <tracerpt> new stuff as in "recently found out about it" 16:57:05 <planetmaker> you could also help translate this game (or NewGRFs like FIRS :D ) 16:57:06 <Pokka> all pikka grfs need a parameter set to work properly wat? 16:57:19 <Pokka> no they don't :o 16:57:23 <planetmaker> Pokka, your safety check for multiple engine sets. So technically maybe not all 16:57:39 <Pokka> eh, old ones 16:57:50 <Pokka> UKRS2 doesn't, av8 doesn't (as of today :)) 16:58:02 <Pokka> the ones which aren't vehicle sets don't :) 16:58:02 <planetmaker> :D k 16:59:12 <planetmaker> but nice :-) I'll adjust my explanation in the future :-) 16:59:22 <planetmaker> "Pikka's old vehicle sets..." ;-) 17:00:29 <V453000> :D 17:00:31 <planetmaker> but I guess I also simply could say NARS / UKRS 17:00:46 <V453000> why do you have that anyway Pokka? 17:00:54 <V453000> if it can be disabled by parameter 17:01:09 <planetmaker> getting rid of the liability for graphics glitches 17:01:14 <Pokka> pretty much 17:01:54 <planetmaker> due to newgrf incompatibility... but yes... 17:02:20 <V453000> hm, can you think of an example of such a glitch? 17:02:23 <V453000> I cant :o 17:02:33 <Pokka> the parameter was basically a "click here to acknowledge you know what you're doing" button 17:02:44 <V453000> right :) 17:03:03 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:03:13 <V453000> with an extra parameter "are you absolutely sure?" which then burns their PC? :D 17:03:47 <planetmaker> V453000, wagon / train alignment 17:04:05 <Pokka> actual incompatibility is largely gone thanks to OpenTTD, but yes, things like that 17:04:08 <planetmaker> and mixing them from different sets 17:04:27 <Pokka> and if people load WAS, planeset and Av8 together and have three different aircraft with the same name and wildly different stats 17:04:36 <Pokka> indeed 17:04:39 <V453000> right :) I solve that by not allowing the engines to attach anything else than their dedicated wagons 17:04:48 <planetmaker> he, that must also look funky then. Never tried WAS+av8+planeset 17:04:48 <peter1138> see 17:04:55 <peter1138> dynamicengines... should be removed 17:05:00 <planetmaker> lol 17:05:02 <peter1138> (but not 65535 engine ids) 17:05:05 <tracerpt> planetmaker: if help is needed i could render some in my spare time 17:05:13 <Pokka> then how would I do 10CC with separate grfs, peter1138 ? 17:05:25 <peter1138> use non-conflicting engine ids 17:05:31 <Pokka> boring 17:05:34 <peter1138> yes 17:05:44 <tracerpt> back then i used an hex editor to translate the text lol 17:05:59 <peter1138> dynamicengines allows multiple sets to use the "same" ids 17:06:04 <planetmaker> tracerpt, http://translators.openttd.org 17:06:15 <tracerpt> will check it 17:06:16 <planetmaker> http://translator.openttd.org/en/status 17:06:18 <peter1138> the increased engine id limit is still there even with that off 17:06:22 <planetmaker> (one s too much) 17:06:48 <tracerpt> first link doesn't workl 17:06:58 <planetmaker> yes ^ 17:07:05 <peter1138> (dynamic engines probably should be removed and made default) 17:07:19 <planetmaker> it is default. 17:07:22 <Pokka> I thought it had been 17:07:34 <planetmaker> it's still a setting, though 17:07:45 <planetmaker> but... possibly could be removed as setting 17:08:02 <andythenorth> it's a silly setting 17:08:06 <Pokka> it may be wanted by some for compatibility with very, very ancient newgrfs 17:08:10 <Pokka> but I say remove it :D 17:08:26 <tracerpt> Portuguese 99.6 % complete 15 untranslated 17:08:39 <tracerpt> doens't say it needs translators :p 17:08:48 <V453000> why would anyone turn that setting off ever anyway 17:09:04 <Pokka> compatibility with very, very ancient newgrfs, V453000 17:09:11 <planetmaker> Pokka, are there some ancient newgrfs with add-on? 17:09:18 <Pokka> I dunno 17:09:34 <planetmaker> maybe it's db-set + ecs/firs add-on. Though I think it (meanwhile) also uses the engine_override action 17:09:34 <Pokka> it wouldn't surprise me if someone didn't once make a grf to modify something in dbset or something 17:09:35 <V453000> I mean turning dynamic engine pool off 17:09:53 <Pokka> not every newgrf which exists is known :) 17:09:58 <peter1138> wasn't there lv4 + lv4-scantily-clad 17:10:11 <Pokka> something like that, peter1138 17:10:29 <peter1138> the dbset one has a hardcoded override lol 17:10:45 <planetmaker> tracerpt, there's also like http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/LATEST/translations/ 17:11:01 <peter1138> hmm 17:11:03 <peter1138> ok 17:11:07 <peter1138> ukrs addons -> ukrs 17:11:10 <peter1138> dbsetxl ecs -> dbsetxl 17:11:14 <peter1138> lv4cut -> lv4 17:11:19 <peter1138> all hard coded overrides 17:11:36 <planetmaker> what else? 17:11:55 <planetmaker> how would dynamic overrides work? Change stats of random engine to ... :D 17:12:10 <peter1138> eh? 17:12:19 <peter1138> newgrfs can provide overrides of course 17:12:23 <tracerpt> :o 17:12:32 <planetmaker> and re random variable for newgrfs: funny would be like "today I'm an industry NewGRF, in the next game I could be a vehicle set" :D (no, I don't mind that) 17:13:08 <planetmaker> peter1138, you meant hardcoded overrides as in not using the override feature to work with dynamic engines enabled? 17:13:23 <tracerpt> bookmarked the translation stuff 17:13:26 <planetmaker> then I mis-understood you 17:13:28 <tracerpt> will check it out later 17:13:32 <Pokka> that would be good, planetmaker 17:13:33 <peter1138> what? 17:13:48 <Pokka> I'll just put all my grfs in one file and use the random number to pick which ones get activated :) 17:14:04 <peter1138> i mean src/newgrf.cpp:9119 17:14:10 <peter1138> (so many lines in that file) 17:16:14 <planetmaker> wtf! 17:17:02 <planetmaker> and there someone shall come and say we don't care about NewGRF developers ;-) 17:18:06 <Pokka> who would ever say that? :) 17:18:15 <planetmaker> though, peter1138, they were iirc previously part of the extra baseset. That was changed from there to the openttd internal place somewhen... one, two years ago, iirc 17:19:34 <planetmaker> Zusammenfassung: (svn r23232) -Change: move the "default" overrides out of the baseset in order to ensure they all use the same values 17:19:41 <tracerpt> bbl gonna buy some 200more trains ;) 17:23:09 <michi_cc> Any daring OS X users around? You could test http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/openttd-custom-geeea764dM-OSX.zip for me. It contains a patch for FS#4744 (10.7 fullscreen support) and the proposed patch from FS#4392 (mouse problems). Completely untested by me, so caveat emptor :) 17:23:43 <michi_cc> And maybe I have broken 10.4 i386 with it, so if somebody still has that combination around... 17:24:10 <planetmaker> so that would need osx 10.7, right? 17:28:38 <Maedhros> michi_cc: sure, i can try that (10.8 here) 17:28:55 <michi_cc> planetmaker: If everything is done right, fullscreen should work on everything. 17:29:31 <michi_cc> I.e. knowing that fullscreen isn't broken on 10.6 is just as important. 17:33:56 <peter1138> what's this, openttd devs with osx? :p 17:33:58 <Maedhros> michi_cc: all seems to work, except that there's no mouse pointer in full screen until you've moved the mouse out of the window and back in (e.g. up to the menu bar and back) 17:34:14 <peter1138> fullscreen... window... what? 17:34:34 <Maedhros> michi_cc: i do have a patch for that if you're interested, although i'm not sure it's the most sensible approach 17:34:50 <michi_cc> Maedhros: No clue how to fix that, but let's see anyway. 17:36:17 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0097ae.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 17:36:52 <Maedhros> michi_cc: http://blankfile.co.uk/openttd/fullscreen-mouse.diff 17:37:24 <Maedhros> michi_cc: basically, going to fullscreen generates a mouseExit event, but not a mouseEnter afterwards 17:38:39 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6B6C9.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 17:39:13 *** ToBeFree is now known as ToBe[Test] 17:39:28 *** ToBe[Test] is now known as [Test]beFree 17:39:57 <andythenorth> hmm all grfs in one 17:39:58 <andythenorth> interesting 17:40:00 <andythenorth> grf.grf 17:40:07 *** [Test]beFree is now known as ToBeFree 17:40:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker michi_cc: I have 10.7 17:40:45 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:40:45 <andythenorth> can you remind me later tonight? 17:41:44 <planetmaker> michi_cc, can you repeat the link please? Backlog starts at my last babbling at university ;-) 17:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> bÀh this grf loading code is confusing :/ 17:43:12 <michi_cc> Maedhros: Any reason for the MAC_OS_X_VERSION_MAX_ALLOWED #ifs? Would these methods just not be called on < 10.7, or is it because of the things called in the methods? Anything that is not 10.5 SDK will not be in our compile farm builds. 17:43:20 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 17:43:26 <michi_cc> planetmaker: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/openttd-custom-geeea764dM-OSX.zip 17:44:03 <planetmaker> ty 17:44:03 <andythenorth> herp 17:44:16 *** kormer [~kormer@c-68-55-166-242.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 17:44:18 <andythenorth> Pokka: FWIW I use loads of 0-4-0 17:44:20 <Maedhros> michi_cc: no particular reason, no - just trying to be consistent with other code 17:44:23 <andythenorth> in my games 17:44:26 <andythenorth> but mostly for lol 17:44:28 <Maedhros> like i said, probably not the most sensible approach :) 17:45:04 <planetmaker> michi_cc, it's to not compile-fail with earlier (or later) OSX-SDKs 17:45:43 <planetmaker> iirc that is 17:45:47 <michi_cc> It seems at least NSWindowDidEnterFullScreenNotification isn't defined in the 10.5 SDK, so either we'd need to duplicate the definition there or find a different way. 17:46:13 <michi_cc> planetmaker: I know, but that doesn't help if the target for the time being is the 10.5 SDK. 17:47:25 <Pokka> andythenorth, 10CC scuddlesland edition, all 0-4-0s 17:47:28 <Pokka> or something 17:47:45 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4080.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:49 <andythenorth> gives me an idea 17:48:20 <V453000> andy having an idea sounds evil 17:48:32 <Pinkbeast> I think I use HEQS vehicles for anything one might use an 0-4-0 for 17:48:38 <andythenorth> 0-4-0 Fast: 25 HP, 90mph 17:48:39 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4080.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:48:54 <andythenorth> 0-4-0 High TE, 10mph, weighs 200t 17:49:03 <andythenorth> etc 17:49:07 <andythenorth> want more power? 17:49:13 <andythenorth> add more engines 17:51:29 <Pokka> let's just give it random stats with the new random feature :) 17:51:32 * Pokka bed 17:51:43 <andythenorth> bye 17:51:47 <Pokka> goodnight 17:51:48 *** Pokka [~Octomom@d58-106-19-54.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:55:38 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 17:55:42 *** ToBeFree is now known as [ToBeThree 17:55:59 *** [ToBeThree is now known as ToBeFree 17:57:41 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:58:19 *** Superuser [~superuser@host81-129-133-93.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:58:31 *** Superuser [~superuser@host81-129-133-93.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has left #openttd [] 18:00:19 <peter1138> hmm[][ap][apd][sapd' 18:00:29 <ToBeFree> oh, sorry 18:00:30 <peter1138> seems good for now 18:00:36 <ToBeFree> xD 18:00:55 <ToBeFree> I was detecting a bug in TuxBot, running on this network 18:01:04 *** LuHa [~harny@14.50.173.216] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:01:14 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host217-43-119-76.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 18:01:34 <LordAro> heyo 18:02:44 <__ln__> so Christoph Waltz won his second Academy Award®. for a good reason. 18:06:22 <michi_cc> Maedhros: Using window delegate, which might or might not work: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2135/ and http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/openttd-custom-geeea764dM-OSX-2.zip 18:07:46 <michi_cc> I hope that doesn't break < 10.7, if it works ar all :) 18:11:24 * planetmaker tests 18:11:35 <Maedhros> michi_cc: works for me 18:12:49 <peter1138> yay, i have my normal keyboard back 18:12:54 <peter1138> although it feels a little odd 18:13:07 <peter1138> probably just need everything to reseat 18:17:13 <planetmaker> michi_cc: works for me on OSX 10.6 18:17:36 <planetmaker> (though ofc I still get the crash when using cmd+h - but that's nothing the patches address or intend to) 18:17:53 <planetmaker> cmd+h = minimize to task bar 18:18:10 <planetmaker> rather: when trying to restore it then again 18:18:14 <michi_cc> Hmm, what else could I have broken... :) Compilation SDK change, font detection still good? 18:18:33 <michi_cc> planetmaker: Do you get a usable stack trace? 18:22:25 <planetmaker> michi_cc: yes... it's this one: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4689 18:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i'm sure the other nominees have done a great job as well 18:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: although i'm not sure how far their definition of "supporting role" spreads 18:25:03 <Maedhros> michi_cc: if you're looking at OS X stuff, any chance you could change "OTTD" to "OpenTTD" in cocoa_v.mm:94 ? it doesn't look great in the menu imho ;) 18:26:07 <michi_cc> planetmaker: What is the restoreCachedImage used for? Does it work if restoreCachedImage and cacheImageInRect are simply removed? 18:30:19 <planetmaker> I never tried... let's look 18:33:17 <Maedhros> michi_cc: actually, your diff in http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2135/ doesn't compile for me. output here: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2136/ 18:35:18 *** somaen [somaen@dash8.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #openttd 18:35:42 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@eduroam-247.felk.cvut.cz] has joined #openttd 18:36:41 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5056.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:37:11 <michi_cc> Maedhros: Sorry, the past was too fast, should be http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2137/ 18:39:29 <Maedhros> aha, that works better :) 18:40:45 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@eduroam-247.felk.cvut.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:41 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:42:38 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 18:47:17 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19EAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:50:55 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 18:50:58 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 18:52:23 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 19:04:37 <Terkhen> hello 19:06:51 <mseidl> are power plans limited to how much coal they can tak ebased on population they supply? 19:09:18 <frosch123> if they are, then it's due to the industry newgrf you are using 19:14:46 <NGC3982> __ln__: http://truefinns.tumblr.com/ 19:15:08 <NGC3982> __ln__: What's your view on Sannfinnarna? 19:16:36 <Pinkbeast> mseidl: ie, not by default 19:19:31 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:22:32 <__ln__> NGC3982: well they aren't the nazi party 2.0 even though the swedish-speaking party and de gröna are trying to build such a reputation for them in foreign media. 19:23:44 <NGC3982> "De gröna", as in a Finnish party? 19:24:04 <__ln__> yes 19:24:15 <NGC3982> I see. 19:24:33 <NGC3982> I haven't really put any thought into it, but the Swedish media does seem to enjoy the nazi references. 19:27:19 <__ln__> surely they have some racist members, but that's still quite far away from being racist as a party. 19:27:40 <NGC3982> I guess they can be compared to the Swedish Democratic party? 19:27:52 <NGC3982> Questionable members, but no real danger. 19:28:58 <__ln__> was swedish democrats the party organizing summer camps for white people? 19:29:55 <NGC3982> Not really. Some of the people that appears in higher parts of the Democratic party, used to be in the Nationalistic Socialist Party. 19:30:17 <NGC3982> The latter had summer camps for arians, and similar. 19:30:28 <NGC3982> The NSP was a real nazi party. 19:31:04 <NGC3982> Sorry, "National Socialistic Front" was the real name, 19:31:06 <NGC3982> -,+. 19:34:21 <__ln__> there are only two openly racist parties in finland, some insignificantly small "freedom party" and much more significant "svenska folkpartiet i finland". 19:35:18 <NGC3982> Haven't even heard of that last one. 19:35:22 <NGC3982> For good reason, i hope. 19:35:35 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25048 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-02-25 18:45:24 UTC) 19:35:36 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 19:35:37 <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 84 changes by somaen, terjesc 19:35:38 <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by wojteks86 19:35:39 <DorpsGek> romanian - 15 changes by mariush 19:35:40 <DorpsGek> gaelic - 86 changes by 19:38:44 <__ln__> NGC3982: they wouldn't admit it themselves though, and the party is very in favor of immigration (no matter what kind). 19:39:02 <NGC3982> I see. 19:40:11 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-015-188.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 19:40:33 <__ln__> but for instance, they want to maintain the segregation between finnish-speaking and swedish-speaking schools. it's not acceptable that both languages would be used in the same school building. 19:40:46 <NGC3982> For what reason? 19:40:49 <NGC3982> Heritage? 19:42:06 <__ln__> in practice they're probably afraid that swedish speakers would get too much exposed to finnish. 19:42:35 <NGC3982> :E 19:47:59 *** tracerpt [4d565a37@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 19:49:35 <mseidl> do i need to do anything regarding pre-signals? it says it will let more than one train onto the block but the train is always stopped even thoough there is more than enough room 19:52:00 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 19:54:17 <Maedhros> mseidl: you need path-based signals (PBS) not pre-signals for that 19:55:38 <Pinkbeast> Unless "it" is permissive signals with two trains following each other with no signals between them. Nothing does that. 19:55:55 <mseidl> Pinkbeast: wait, do i need signals all the way down? 19:57:15 <Pinkbeast> It's a little vague what you mean by that, but it will never be the case that two trains run on the same bit of line without a signal between them. 19:58:05 <mseidl> i have a loading loop with a 2 track station, both stations are connected by a single line. i want it so that if one train is going to the left, any trains on the right can follow it and go to the left, and any trains on the left are waiting to go towards the right 19:58:37 <Pinkbeast> Definitely we're at "post an image of the layout" time 19:58:42 <mseidl> ha 19:59:36 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:59:45 <mseidl> Pinkbeast: http://www.darkcoding.net/files/2009/05/two-loading-loops.jpg 19:59:55 <mseidl> so around the lundinghattan ridge, that's how both of my stations look 19:59:56 <Pinkbeast> ugh, png, please, but I'll take a look 20:00:07 <mseidl> it's not my actual screen shot 20:00:23 <mseidl> but i have no signals between either station 20:00:32 <Pinkbeast> jpg compression tends to mangle screenshots very badly 20:00:53 <Pinkbeast> Err so this is not the game you are actually playing? 20:01:48 <mseidl> no 20:01:59 <mseidl> i just copied the layouts and now i used regular path signals 20:02:07 <mseidl> and now i crashed my trains! 20:02:37 <Pinkbeast> If you crashed a train you fiddled with signals when a train was approaching them or ordered a train to pass a signal at danger 20:02:43 <mseidl> right, Pinkbeast 20:02:44 <mseidl> i did 20:02:51 <mseidl> and i couldnt get rid of it fast enough :) 20:03:58 <Pinkbeast> Are the blue lines on that diagram significant? 20:04:16 <mseidl> no 20:04:25 <mseidl> ignore any of the picture outside lundinghattan ridge 20:04:42 <mseidl> including the blue lines 20:04:45 <Pinkbeast> OK, then I have no idea what the question is, I'm afraid 20:04:47 <andythenorth> hello 20:05:23 <mseidl> i have no path signals on the connecting track between the 2 stations, the stations are almost identical (slightly different due to space constraints 20:05:39 <mseidl> Pinkbeast: lets say i have a station on the right, and on the left 20:06:02 <Pinkbeast> I really suggest you actually post a screenshot of the game you are playing, but OK. 20:06:20 <mseidl> if a train is going from left to right, any other trains on the left should be able to follow the train going right 20:06:21 <Pinkbeast> I guess you might be trying to have multiple trains follow each other on a single-line section used in both directions? 20:06:31 <mseidl> Pinkbeast: right! 20:06:38 <Pinkbeast> There is no good way to do that. 20:07:27 <mseidl> should i pay big money for dual lines? 20:07:40 <Pinkbeast> Passing places would be an intermediate solution 20:11:19 <mseidl> ok 20:11:32 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@eduroam-247.felk.cvut.cz] has joined #openttd 20:12:27 <mseidl> Pinkbeast: what's the best option? 20:12:35 <Pinkbeast> If short of money, passing places. 20:12:49 <Pinkbeast> Nearly all the track you lay for them will be useful for a dual line later. 20:12:53 * andythenorth works on Squid. Which is better, complicated, or simple? 20:13:49 <planetmaker> KISS 20:14:06 *** LordAro is now known as Guest223 20:14:07 <planetmaker> one tentacle left. One tentacle right. Eat through the middle 20:14:09 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-165-36-39.range86-165.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:15:23 <mseidl> Pinkbeast: i have over 1 million pounds 20:17:53 <Pinkbeast> Dual-track it then 20:19:54 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:05 *** Guest223 [~LordAro@host217-43-119-76.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:20:14 *** Bad_Brett [~bad@78-69-118-27-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:28:06 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.73.68] has joined #openttd 20:28:30 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@eduroam-247.felk.cvut.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 20:43:38 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.73.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:46:41 *** flaa [~flaa@89.100.79.103] has joined #openttd 20:52:13 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-71-172.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 20:56:10 *** xT2 [~JrC@bl6-135-137.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:25 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wlan132190.mobiel.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd 21:05:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have an Eddi shaped problem 21:05:30 *** ST2 [~JrC@bl6-135-137.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd 21:06:04 *** kero [~keikoz@159.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 21:06:14 <andythenorth> a ship has one or more associated spritesheets. e.g. ship_0.png, ship_1.png etc 21:06:26 <andythenorth> these correspond to relatively minor graphical variations 21:06:36 <frosch123> which of them has the beard? 21:06:42 <andythenorth> yes 21:06:50 <andythenorth> they are chosen at random, but random choice is modified according to build date 21:07:15 <andythenorth> I am controlling dates by two-tuples in a list, 21:07:39 <andythenorth> [(1870,1900),(1870,1930),(1900,1940)] etc 21:07:50 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 21:08:03 <andythenorth> but I have no idea how to programmatically construct switches for this :P 21:08:30 <NGC3982> If i save a NewGRF setting, and then start a local game. Does the current openttd.cfg get saved somewhere special? 21:08:54 <andythenorth> frosch123 wrt subtype refits, an ellipsis at the end of the cargos with subtypes might work 21:09:02 <NGC3982> I'm trying out NewGRF's for the server on a Windows client, and it would be neat if i could simply copy the GRF list to the server config. 21:12:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: benefit of ellipsis is that it doesn't add padding to lh side of list 21:13:22 <andythenorth> and it wont' create a ragged edge (the non-subtype cargos won't have a + for disclosure, which will look messy) 21:14:31 <frosch123> i thought about using the tree stuff from advanced settings 21:14:58 <andythenorth> yes, but what would you show for a cargo with no subtype? o_O 21:15:18 <frosch123> empty space 21:19:41 <NGC3982> :( 21:20:08 <frosch123> NGC3982: you can copy the stuff from openttd.cfg 21:20:14 <frosch123> but you might need to fix pathes 21:20:30 <frosch123> when moving between win and linux you might need to repalce / and \ 21:20:42 <NGC3982> All i need is the GRF list. I'm not moving the full file. 21:20:42 <frosch123> i consider it easier to transfer savegames 21:20:48 <NGC3982> Oh, i see. 21:20:50 <NGC3982> Yes, ill do that. 21:20:58 <NGC3982> Much better idea. :P 21:21:16 <NGC3982> Oh, i also need to download all the NewGRF's to the server. 21:21:33 <__ln__> NGC3982: did you see Dredd yet? 21:21:36 <NGC3982> No. 21:21:56 <NGC3982> Is there a way for me to download all the current NewGRF's in one go? 21:23:17 <frosch123> no, sadly the server cannot ask bananas for the stuff from a savegame 21:23:20 <frosch123> only the gui can do that 21:24:03 <NGC3982> I was refering more to the fact that i can't find a "download everything" button on Bananas.openttd.org. 21:24:21 <NGC3982> Since, that would greatly help my savegame moving-and-running process. 21:30:28 <planetmaker> if you run a server, have a look at the content rcon command 21:31:02 <NGC3982> Yes, i'm administrating my servers with rcon. 21:31:08 <andythenorth> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=diWtAdma 21:31:15 <andythenorth> probably makes no sense out of context 21:31:18 <NGC3982> I have not yet downloaded anything, or moved/stored NewGRF's with it. 21:31:42 * NGC3982 made a script that downloaded everything with the GUI. 21:34:18 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-253.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 21:39:10 <andythenorth> michi_cc: want me to try the OS X patch? 21:39:35 <michi_cc> andythenorth: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/openttd-custom-geeea764dM-OSX-2.zip see what you can break :) 21:39:47 <andythenorth> what does it fix? :) 21:41:56 <michi_cc> Fullscreen on 10.7+ and maybe some mouse problems. 21:43:07 <andythenorth> k I'm on 10.7.4, Fullscreen appears to work. The animated transition to / from full screen is best described as 'weird' 21:43:26 <andythenorth> and the full screen option in game options shows no 'true' state 21:45:02 <andythenorth> the mouse appears to track better, but the issues with that have been intermittent...so ENoEvidence :) 21:45:38 <andythenorth> hmm 21:46:10 <andythenorth> the standard OS X full screen option on window title bar works 21:46:16 <andythenorth> it has video glitch 21:46:36 <andythenorth> it's a different animation to choosing full screen from menu / or in game options 21:47:34 <andythenorth> no crash on minimising to / from dock 21:47:56 <andythenorth> video glitch on maximise window (green button) 21:48:51 <andythenorth> full screen only works for native resolution afaict 21:49:58 <andythenorth> any other resolution is ignored and reset to native (OpenTTD full screen) 21:50:29 <andythenorth> for OS X full screen, the resolution is respected, but shown at 1:1 scaled to native resolution, i.e. smaller, no window chrome, over a background 21:51:20 <NGC3982> Uhm. 21:51:46 <NGC3982> If i start a server that advertises a certain server name and then load a new game, will the old one still remain advertised? 21:52:45 <andythenorth> michi_cc: let me know if you need any screenshots or such 21:52:47 <andythenorth> couldn't break it 21:52:56 <andythenorth> except for above 21:53:22 <michi_cc> So, better than current or not? 21:56:32 <NGC3982> Of course, i get a NewGRF mismatch. 21:57:53 <andythenorth> michi_cc: better imo 21:57:59 <andythenorth> but 21:58:18 <andythenorth> I forsee new bug reports :( 21:58:20 <NGC3982> I guess that is due to my client (where i saved the game) uses Windows, and the server (where i tried to load the save file) uses Linux. 21:58:34 <andythenorth> wrt lack of control over resolution in full screen 21:58:44 <michi_cc> andythenorth: A bug report about a glitch is better than a bug report about a crash. 21:58:50 <andythenorth> yes 21:58:59 <andythenorth> I assume apple have removed the ability to change resolution 21:59:04 <andythenorth> that would be very apple-like 22:01:54 <frosch123> night 22:01:59 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5056.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:00 *** bo-31027_ [~bco@87.116.34.12] has joined #openttd 22:13:00 *** bo-31027 [~bco@87.116.34.12] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:24 *** mseidl [~aaa@p5DCE636C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:21:04 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:29:47 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.73.68] has joined #openttd 22:33:03 <peter1138> NGC3982, no, that'll be due to the server not having the same set of NewGRFs 22:38:32 <NGC3982> Yes, i noticed. I had not used a copy command recursivly. 22:38:45 <NGC3982> It is solved, and the server is running. 22:45:10 <LordAro> @seen Yexo 22:45:10 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 12 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 38 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet 22:50:46 <andythenorth> ho ho 22:50:51 <andythenorth> random graphics in squid 22:50:54 <andythenorth> that was easy :) 22:52:33 <andythenorth> same ship class, different graphics https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3851/random.png 22:52:39 <andythenorth> might freak a few people out 22:52:50 <andythenorth> but eh, they can always try another ship grf :) 22:53:09 <peter1138> you'll get bug reports 22:53:30 <jonty-comp> so my friend is doing a TV coverage of an ice hockey game 22:53:39 <jonty-comp> and he realised he'd forgotten his laptop with the software that does the score overlay 22:53:46 <jonty-comp> but what did he have? his pi, with a RISC OS system image 22:53:52 <peter1138> oh dear 22:53:54 <jonty-comp> so he wrote a BBC BASIC PROGRAM TO DISPLAY THE SCORES 22:53:58 <jonty-comp> it's AMAZING 22:54:37 <andythenorth> can he also write an open source clone of Chocks Away? 22:55:00 <jonty-comp> the only game I remember from RISC OS is granny's garden 22:55:16 <peter1138> granny's garden was a bbc micro title :S 22:55:19 <andythenorth> peter1138: I'll just add some text to buy menu then... Graphics: Random 22:55:32 <andythenorth> also, where is Ice Cream Stand game, I have been looking for it for years 22:55:39 <andythenorth> you ran an ice cream stand 22:55:44 <andythenorth> on a beach 22:55:46 <andythenorth> it was great 22:55:57 <jonty-comp> peter1138: yeah well like I say there are BBC BASIC interpreters for RISC OS 22:56:10 <jonty-comp> and i am too young for BBC Micros, but I am not too young for primary schools with no budget 22:56:22 <peter1138> well it's built in, obviously 22:56:58 <andythenorth> 10: color = rnd(12) 22:57:02 <andythenorth> 20 print "fuck" 22:57:05 <andythenorth> 30 goto 10 22:57:15 <jonty-comp> actually i think we had a port with improved graphics 22:57:15 <andythenorth> ah computer classes at school :) 22:57:43 * andythenorth starts beebem 22:57:57 <jonty-comp> we did have one bbc micro though 22:57:58 <andythenorth> have to use mode 2 iirc 22:58:02 <jonty-comp> the only disk that still worked was podd 22:58:36 <andythenorth> hmm not mode 2 22:58:44 <andythenorth> podd was to discover if you had special needs or not 23:05:47 <andythenorth> probably time for bed eh? http://imgflip.com/i/okej 23:08:26 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@84.40.82.221] has joined #openttd 23:08:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 23:09:46 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19EAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:47 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6B6C9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:59 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6A9FF.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 23:12:44 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 23:14:17 *** kero [~keikoz@159.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: kero] 23:18:24 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: We be chillin - IceChat style] 23:44:03 *** chester_ [~chester@93-80-60-10.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:57:35 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host86-165-36-39.range86-165.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:58:56 *** flaa [~flaa@89.100.79.103] has quit [Quit: leaving]