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07:51:02 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.64.51] has joined #openttd 08:00:13 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 08:02:39 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 08:03:54 <juzza1> ok 08:09:42 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:12:33 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-247-186.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 08:41:45 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-162.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: DDR is not Dance Dance Revolution.] 08:42:45 <juzza1> planetmaker: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9usRKUv7vK5ejFFY3BJdW5la00/edit?usp=sharing 08:51:52 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:54:04 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 09:03:07 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 09:03:27 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 09:04:50 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has joined #openttd 09:13:29 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #openttd 09:20:01 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 09:20:27 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 09:36:28 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 09:40:32 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 09:40:59 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:44 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:55:06 *** Celestar [~vici@mnch-4d04f698.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:55:09 *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ 09:58:53 *** Dark-Ace-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.54.92] has joined #openttd 10:02:45 *** DarkAce-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.54.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:50:00 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3561.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 10:51:40 *** Ristovski [~rafael@78.157.7.34] has joined #openttd 10:56:12 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:03:04 *** roadt__ [~roadt@223.240.97.38] has joined #openttd 11:03:14 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:10:07 *** roadt_ [~roadt@223.240.109.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:20:30 *** HellTiger [~HellTiger@43-54.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #openttd 11:27:50 *** sla_ro|master [~boty@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 11:31:59 <George> How to get the last service day for a train? 11:32:34 <George> or days since last service? 11:33:53 <George> To be exact, I want to check, if the vehicle was serviced after specific date or not to choose a new livery 11:35:53 <juzza1> date_of_last_service 11:35:57 <juzza1> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Vehicle_variables 11:38:05 <planetmaker> juzza1: thanks, I got the test grf's zip 11:39:39 <George> juzza1: thank you 11:41:42 <juzza1> np 12:21:12 *** Dark-Ace-Z is now known as DarkAceZ 12:38:17 *** HellTiger [~HellTiger@43-54.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:56 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd 12:54:48 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 12:54:51 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:07:33 *** Pensacola [~quassel@phys9212.phys.tue.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:36 *** Pensacola [~quassel@phys9212.phys.tue.nl] has joined #openttd 13:22:03 <Ristovski> Hmm, why have I been banned from tt-forums? 13:22:17 <Ristovski> The admin probably banned a ip range D: 13:24:20 <Ristovski> planetmaker: Happen to know who the admin of tt-forums is? 13:33:26 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 13:37:40 <juzza1> you must've been very naughty 13:38:50 <alluke> juzza 13:39:03 <alluke> i thing the sm4 roofs need to be grey(er) 13:39:06 <alluke> think* 13:39:10 *** HellTiger [~HellTiger@43-54.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #openttd 13:39:12 <alluke> hold on 13:43:16 <alluke> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/puput.png 13:43:41 <alluke> compare to http://vaunut.org/kuva/81867 and http://vaunut.org/kuva/61168 13:44:08 <Ristovski> juzza1: I never posted anything/commented 13:44:26 <Ristovski> so apart from reading posts, I haven't touched anything 13:46:04 <George> when a train comes into depo, only the first engine gets date_of_last_service updated. 13:46:37 <NGC3982> It does? 13:46:56 <George> when a consist is split into vehicles, the other engines have date_of_last_service not updated 13:47:14 <George> equal to day of build 13:48:24 <George> is it a bug? 13:54:23 <juzza1> alluke: those are ancient sprites... agreed that they could use some improvements 13:54:54 *** roadt__ [~roadt@223.240.97.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:56:50 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 13:57:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so... now i have LED lights which say they last 15 years... 13:58:19 <alluke> i also suggest renaming some cars 13:58:53 <alluke> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/namnen.png 13:59:07 <alluke> ive changed the ones marked with red dots 14:02:41 <George> FS#5550 14:05:06 <juzza1> alluke: those seem better than the current ones 14:05:09 <juzza1> ill change later 14:05:17 <alluke> ok 14:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> George: this probably affects some other values that are "valid for front only" 14:05:53 <George> Eddi|zuHause: And that? 14:06:29 <George> if some properties can't be updated, than only some propertiers should be updated 14:07:01 <George> date_of_last_service does not look like a property that can't be updated 14:09:20 <juzza1> George: maybe use current_year instead 14:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> juzza1: the idea is that trains don't change livery while running on the track, only in depot. 14:10:00 <George> juzza1: incorrect - vehicles will change the view on the fly instead of after depot 14:10:40 <Eddi|zuHause> do vehicles have animation state or something? 14:10:59 <George> Eddi|zuHause: the one I tested - no 14:11:02 <juzza1> it was more of a response to the problem when vehicles not in front are not updated 14:11:10 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can use the userbits 14:11:34 <George> Eddi|zuHause: how? 14:11:44 <Eddi|zuHause> set the userbit when the livery changes, and drawing checks only those 14:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't really looked into it yet, but likely i need some solution for that as well 14:12:43 <planetmaker> Ristovski, oruge is the person to talk to wrt tt-f 14:12:44 <George> Eddi|zuHause: Incorrect. different engines in consist have different date for a chnge 14:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> George: well, the bits would be checked only vehicle-local 14:13:09 <Ristovski> planetmaker: is he here on irc? 14:13:19 <Ristovski> I mean, in w/e channel on w/e network 14:13:38 <George> Eddi|zuHause: and how should they be set then? 14:13:40 * planetmaker says nothing and waits for Ristovski to notice :D 14:14:03 <Ristovski> planetmaker: I did notice, wasnt sure if it is him tho 14:14:39 <planetmaker> :-) 14:16:58 <planetmaker> Ristovski, it might be a good idea though to send him an e-mail, though 14:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> George: i can't seem to find the userbits in the specs :/ 14:17:12 <planetmaker> and explain the situation therein 14:17:23 <Ristovski> planetmaker: Yeah, I might if he doesnt reply in query 14:18:08 *** jamesgo_ [~james@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause> George: CB36, prop25 14:18:48 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:04 <alluke> is it possible to turn around articulated locos 14:19:10 <planetmaker> no 14:19:10 <alluke> via ctrl-click 14:19:13 <alluke> ok 14:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> George: not sure whether there's a way to read these bits for only the current vehicle, not the whole chain 14:21:47 *** jamesgo [~james@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #openttd 14:22:51 <George> I also do not se a way to read current bit mask for an engine and or it with a new value when the front engine is got serviced 14:23:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the current bits are supposed to be read by var42 14:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is for the whole consist 14:24:51 <alluke> juzza1: should there be a restriction that forces you to add an aggregate car if youre pulling ic cars with other locos than sr1/2, dr16? 14:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> George: the "easy" way would be if you could set "generations" that all vehicles will go through, then each bit would mean a different generation, and all vehicles in the chain will switch generation at the same time 14:26:55 *** Pensacola [~quassel@phys9212.phys.tue.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the more difficult way would be to introduce a new var that reads the userbits for the current vehicle 14:27:42 <George> Eddi|zuHause: imho a better way be to fix a FS#5550 :) 14:28:09 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 14:28:11 <Eddi|zuHause> George: that would fix your symptom, but not the real problem :) 14:28:17 <George> because I do not see any good reason why the first engine is servised and the second is not 14:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> George: the vehicle will be serviced on exiting the depot 14:29:22 <George> The problem is the second engine IS not serviced 14:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and why should it? the second engine doesn't break down, and has no speed, etc... 14:29:59 <George> regardless entering or leaving depot 14:30:09 <George> It has speed 14:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you sure? 14:30:33 <alluke> if the second engine breaks the train shouldnt stop 14:30:44 <alluke> just lose the power and te of the loco 14:30:56 <George> In case front engine is 100kmh and second is 80 km/h the consist goes 80 km/h max 14:31:04 <Eddi|zuHause> George: that is max speed 14:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> George: i meant current speed 14:31:22 <George> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, misunderstood you 14:31:42 <George> alluke: that would be fine 14:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want the current speed of the train, you must reference the front engine 14:31:56 <George> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, I know 14:33:56 <alluke> planetmaker: when will we see combined rail- and roadbridges in ottd? :P http://vaunut.org/kuva/5931 14:37:26 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:41 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff058.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 14:51:07 <Eddi|zuHause> George: i do think your issue is an actual issue, but the proposed "solution" only works for your special case. for example i add a random interval to the livery change, but if i then split up a vehicle, it gets different random bits, so the same effect may appear 14:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> so the idea with using the userbits for permanent storage might be more flexible 14:53:12 <George> I do not use random livery based on head engine yet, only on current engine 14:57:38 <planetmaker> juzza1, what's your username? 15:07:52 <frosch123> what weird posts there are on the forums today 15:08:21 <planetmaker> anything in particular which you mean? 15:09:18 <planetmaker> to me it looked pretty normal. Also the noise level 15:09:53 <frosch123> currently, the one in ttdp and the graphics job inquiry 15:10:27 <planetmaker> ah, graphics job... yes. I wonder(ed) actually whether it's spam. I decided to give it a shot without getting any high hopes 15:12:25 <planetmaker> I laughed quite a bit when I saw "Curse: Finishing Graphic Design". If it's a curse - why does he do it? ;-) 15:13:07 <frosch123> well, i read it as "fishing graphic design" - wtf? :p 15:14:11 <planetmaker> :D 15:19:47 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.174.15] has joined #openttd 15:21:34 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:25:50 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd 15:28:01 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has quit [Quit: Tvel] 15:29:47 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 15:31:22 <Eddi|zuHause> George: i meant, i use the random bits of the front engine, so all vehicles of the chain will use the same livery 15:32:54 <George> and when you move the second engine away from the consist it gets repaineted ;) 15:33:20 <George> Not the thing I want to have in my set :D 15:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. 15:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and the other problem is that i cannot rerandomize this time, because if the random value is higher than before, it might change the livery back. 15:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> with the userbits/storage thing i could solve both 15:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe a 60+ variable that can read any property? 15:36:46 <planetmaker> so... circular CB36? :-P 15:36:54 *** Flygon__ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 15:37:19 <planetmaker> if power == 32 then power = 20 else power = 32 ;-) 15:37:20 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... :) 15:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but CB36 is usually not called very often, so where is the problem? :) 15:39:36 <planetmaker> in the word "usually" ;-) 15:41:40 <planetmaker> in principle I agree with the idea, Eddi|zuHause. All I try to say is that there might be more or less hidden bear traps 15:42:02 <planetmaker> with circular stuff. and maybe with desyncs if not properly done. 15:42:51 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it is circular already, you can set it by CB36 and read it by var42 15:43:40 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:46:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "the newspapers' 'please don't use adblock' campaign has resulted in +129% increased downloads of adblock and +167% more donations for adblock" 15:47:04 <planetmaker> :-O 15:47:39 <planetmaker> source, Eddi|zuHause ? 15:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> https://twitter.com/AdblockPlus/status/334256274273345536 15:49:17 <planetmaker> very nice 15:50:25 <alluke> i have a test railway around the borders of the map 15:50:51 <alluke> btw 15:50:57 <alluke> why is the diesel smoke brown 15:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause> ask simon foster? 15:52:01 <frosch123> why is the adblockplus twitter in german? 15:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> there's an english tweet as well https://twitter.com/AdblockPlus/status/334311179973435392 15:56:24 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:57:33 <planetmaker> actually I allowed an exception for them. They have somewhat a point 15:58:09 <frosch123> i am using a white-listing flash blocker 15:58:27 <frosch123> it blocks all of the annoying stuff and uses way less resources than adblock 15:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i just turn off flash... 15:59:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and javascript 15:59:09 <frosch123> i am using it too often 15:59:14 <alluke> planetmaker: http://vaunut.org/kuva/46796 15:59:26 <frosch123> for some reason html5 does not seem to be used 15:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if i really need those, i open firefox 15:59:37 <frosch123> though my old stable browser would likely not support it anyway 16:00:18 <planetmaker> alluke, ok. And...? 16:00:32 <alluke> in ottd the smoke is brown 16:01:39 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: my guess is it was meant to be different from the breakdown smoke 16:03:45 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: you can replace the sprites by actionA :) 16:04:39 <frosch123> someone should code newsmoke :) 16:04:51 <planetmaker> NewEffectVehicles rather 16:05:06 <planetmaker> NewDisasterVehicles 16:05:23 <planetmaker> oh... how does OpenTTD decide on the shadow's shape? 16:05:24 <frosch123> who uses disasters? 16:05:33 <frosch123> planetmaker: it's just the same? 16:05:42 <frosch123> but with transparancy effect 16:05:44 <planetmaker> same as what? the plane? 16:05:52 <frosch123> yes 16:06:08 <frosch123> it's a flat projection ofc :) 16:06:09 <planetmaker> a pity :-P No disk-shadow from a normal plane ;-) 16:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: NewEffectVehicle: a tractor roaming the fields of a farm :p 16:06:24 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that's NewFields 16:06:30 <alluke> tried photohopiing the smoke into greyscale 16:06:42 <alluke> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/N%C3%A4ytt%C3%B6kuva%202013-05-14%20kohteessa%2019.02.11.png 16:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: only if you want to go insane from coordinating animation states 16:07:02 <planetmaker> :-) 16:07:29 <planetmaker> alluke, that train only has a *very* slight alignment problem, no? 16:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> something tells me it would be easier with an effectvehicle 16:07:47 <planetmaker> maybe, yes, Eddi|zuHause 16:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: or MB's industrial/port railway 16:07:56 <frosch123> i always hated games with pedestrians 16:08:14 <frosch123> first thing which annoyed me about simutrans 16:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the powerplant smoke is already an effect vehicle 16:08:16 <planetmaker> "vehicle": pedestrian 16:08:24 <planetmaker> true 16:08:29 <planetmaker> and bubbles 16:08:55 <alluke> dont know about that 16:09:19 <alluke> i took it just to test the smoke coloring 16:10:40 <frosch123> [18:06] <planetmaker> a pity :-P No disk-shadow from a normal plane ;-) <- the sun in ttd is a broad laser btw :) 16:10:53 <frosch123> the shadow traces the outline on scale 1:1 16:11:03 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:11:28 <planetmaker> haha :-) yeah 16:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> do airplanes at cruising altitude cast a shadow at all? 16:13:22 <planetmaker> yes and no. They don't cover the whole disk of the sun 16:13:25 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the shadow of your fingers vanishes within 1 m distance or so 16:13:27 <planetmaker> thus they only dim light 16:15:03 <frosch123> i would guess a plane stops casting a shadow around 2km altitude 16:15:52 <planetmaker> http://www.featurepics.com/online/Plane-Sun-Illustration-573547.aspx 16:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> photoshopped!!! 16:16:58 <planetmaker> sure. But it's relatively easy to take such picture 16:17:16 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 16:18:28 <frosch123> most tricky part should be the light filter? 16:18:44 <planetmaker> light filter? To not over expose? 16:18:46 *** hmmm [~oftc-webi@a85-139-79-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #openttd 16:19:00 <planetmaker> Not really needed if you take in the early morning or late evening hours 16:19:06 <frosch123> well, i don't think you can save it with shorter exposure 16:19:36 <hmmm> hi 16:19:39 <planetmaker> First 30 minutes after sun rise or last 30 minutes usually work 16:20:45 <hmmm> mibbit says it is banned from oftc, couldn't join this chat using http://www.tt-forums.net/chat.php 16:21:02 <hmmm> im using 16:21:03 <hmmm> https://webchat.oftc.net/ 16:21:10 <hmmm> instad 16:22:13 <planetmaker> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eIErOIhZqcE/UM2AkgqSNyI/AAAAAAAADi8/FESBoUhvSn8/w829-h553-no/IMG_2532.jpg @ frosch123 And that's overexposed on the sun on purpose 16:22:53 <Terkhen> hello 16:22:56 <hmmm> hi 16:23:01 <planetmaker> hi 16:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but it'd be difficult to catch a plane on cruising altitude in front of the sun at this angle :p 16:24:24 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 16:24:55 <planetmaker> :-) difficult, yes 16:25:21 <planetmaker> but birds at cruising altitude (though also low sun): https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-y0RtUGnQ3Do/T-g1NKWxUnI/AAAAAAAAB-U/7LRenRWA-P8/w829-h553-no/IMG_9134.jpg 16:25:35 <planetmaker> in a somewhat vain attempt to image Venus 16:26:05 <hmmm> here's what I'm here for: I have gathered enough AI tests and took notes of those which I have considered stable 16:26:11 <hmmm> is anyone interested? 16:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause> venus is probably too small to show up on a photo? 16:26:38 <planetmaker> sure. You're aware of a few such test results in the AI sub-forums, hmm? 16:26:53 <hmmm> i'm banned from the forum 16:27:05 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it shows at a bit more magnification (which the lens is capable of) 16:27:17 <planetmaker> or in projection: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-OI9dqaarX1o/T-g1QVq5btI/AAAAAAAAB-0/n8tasUV0Nrc/w829-h553-no/IMG_9149.jpg 16:27:42 <hmmm> the list is rather small 16:28:48 <hmmm> so here goes 16:28:55 <planetmaker> https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Comparison_of_AIs is known to you, too? 16:29:26 <hmmm> AdmiralAI (v25), survived 100 years in ten 100 years from 1950-2050 16:29:32 <hmmm> ten out ten 16:29:50 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 16:30:16 <hmmm> AroAI (v127) - same 16:30:48 <planetmaker> IMHO feel free to make a page in the wiki about your test results. Especially the landscape and possibly NewGRF settings in order to obtain them can greatly influence the results 16:32:53 <hmmm> Admiral (v25), AroAI (v127), Convoy (v11), DictatorAI (v169), MogulAI (v5900), OtviAI (v415), SimpleAI (v8) and Terron (v208) - they're the most stable AIs currently there, with all default settings 16:33:02 <hmmm> freshly created openttd.cfg that is 16:33:25 <hmmm> the others fail one way or another 16:33:25 <planetmaker> what about AIAI? 16:33:28 <planetmaker> or NoCAB? 16:33:50 <hmmm> AIAI have errors in the script in some tests 16:33:56 <planetmaker> Terron... is something I personally don't have the most stable experience with 16:33:57 <hmmm> I took note 16:34:18 <planetmaker> same with MogulAI actually 16:34:20 <hmmm> - Vehicle (Sampson U52) construction failed with ERR_NOT_ENOUGH_CASH(message from AIAI::BuildVehicle), ERR_PRECONDITION_FAILED (before sign construction), engine: Sampson U52, last error is ERR_NONE, debug.nut error: division by zero 16:34:36 <planetmaker> hm? 16:34:51 <hmmm> that is my listing of AIAI errors 16:35:00 <hmmm> - Too many vehicles on this route!, Empty AIVehicleList_Station, Invalid vehicle, aftercheck4 1314, last error is ERR_NONE debug.nut error: division by zero 16:35:18 <planetmaker> does that make them crash? 16:35:27 <hmmm> and the most common one from AIAI is: 16:35:31 <hmmm> - Builder.nut error: the index "Count" does not exist 16:35:43 <planetmaker> ^^ indeed. I recall seeing that 16:36:13 <hmmm> NoCAB doesn't error out 16:36:30 <hmmm> but it has a severe train management bug very late in the game 16:36:33 *** Ristovski [~rafael@78.157.7.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:36:49 <hmmm> it tries to upgrade rail 16:37:06 <hmmm> even when some trains are not stopped in a depot, they're out 16:37:18 <planetmaker> he :-) 16:37:23 <hmmm> so, it finds itself with old train tracks 16:37:25 <planetmaker> Make it better. It's open source 16:37:30 <planetmaker> :-) 16:37:34 <hmmm> but with partial upgraded rails 16:37:39 <hmmm> so, many trains are lost 16:38:05 <hmmm> then I have no idea why it does this: if massively builds 500 trains 16:38:16 <hmmm> like it was really done a great job at upgrading the rail 16:38:22 <hmmm> and goes bankrupt 16:38:36 <hmmm> that happens by year 2020/2030 16:38:46 <hmmm> it's a monorail to maglev bug 16:38:50 <planetmaker> ah, sad. I had recently a lot of AI playing in my test newgrf test games. I guess it never got that far 16:39:20 <hmmm> it tries to upgrade both monorial and railway to maglev, railways seems done well, but monorail... 16:39:21 <hmmm> not 16:40:22 <hmmm> 5 ouf ot 10 games it went bankrupt 16:40:29 <hmmm> the other 5 games 16:40:43 <hmmm> it is still alive with money, but it's not exactly in top form 16:40:51 <hmmm> it would bankrupt if the game lasted a bit more 16:42:47 <gelignite> what i find awful about NoCAB (i think it is NoCAB) is, that it groups vehicles for a route but doesnt share orders. when you buy this AI (buy 100% shares) later in the game, it is tedious to "fix" the orders. 16:43:28 <gelignite> Q: players can connect stations on not adjacent tiles by holding CTRL. what's the correspondent command for NOAI? 16:43:50 <hmmm> i tested gelignite too 16:44:01 <gelignite> it's broken 16:44:10 <hmmm> it doesn't error out 16:44:20 <gelignite> i'm working on an updated version 16:44:44 <hmmm> it however does great money management in my view, maybe because it's too simple 16:45:33 <hmmm> looking if it had ever bankrupted, brb 16:45:38 <gelignite> the concept was to buy 2-4 vehicles and make some money. don't disturb the players and try not to went bankrupt. 16:46:07 <gelignite> i'm sure it will become bankrupt somewhere beyond 2020 16:46:11 <planetmaker> hmm, you indeed might want to make a table like https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/NoCarGoal which gathers some stats on the game. And how the AIs did. Possibly on an AI basis rather. 16:46:35 <hmmm> alright, never bankrupted 16:46:46 <hmmm> 7 out of 10 games profit was negative though 16:47:20 <gelignite> should be 10 out of 10 at its current state :-P 16:47:53 <gelignite> that's why i'm looking for the command to build connected stations on not adjacent tiles 16:48:14 <hmmm> now listing those with script errors: 16:48:40 <hmmm> AIAI iota 14 16:48:49 <hmmm> MailAI-20110726 16:48:57 <hmmm> SynTrans-13 16:49:15 <hmmm> TeshiNet-4.0.2 16:49:23 <hmmm> trAIns-2 16:49:30 <hmmm> WmDOT-11.1 16:49:44 <hmmm> these 16:50:31 <hmmm> MailAI seems to have many diverse errors 16:50:44 <hmmm> error: the index 'bridge_end' does not exist 16:50:51 <hmmm> - Route.nut error: the index 'Begin' does not exist 16:50:57 <hmmm> - RailBuilder.nut error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer' 16:51:29 <hmmm> - Train is lost 16:51:34 <hmmm> almost everywhere in the log 16:53:55 <planetmaker> http://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/classAIRail.html#b45d8589600f9cdc952fc44e9583cb4c @ gelignite 16:54:03 <planetmaker> look at the StationID parameter of that function 16:54:20 * gelignite is looking 16:54:25 <hmmm> for trAIns-2 16:54:32 <hmmm> only 1 error, always the same 16:54:34 <hmmm> railroad_manager.nut error: inconsistent compare function 16:54:52 <planetmaker> or... does that oly allow really adjacent ones? 16:56:01 <planetmaker> in any case, I'm not familiar with AI programming... maybe ask in AI sub-forums, gelignite 16:56:39 <gelignite> i thought that it only allows really adjacent stations, but i'm gonna try something now ... 16:58:15 <hmmm> Teshinet (v4) errors 16:58:24 <planetmaker> It's always good to accompany feature-requests with a code where the requested feature could be easily tested with (by adding a line or two possibly) 16:58:44 <hmmm> Unable to connect stations. Aborting and removing stations. 16:58:50 <hmmm> Trying to build an airport route. planes.nut error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer' 16:59:02 <hmmm> - One or more stations or depots were not built. Aborting. 16:59:11 <hmmm> - Town is NOT valid. Invalid location! error: the index 'station_id' does not exist - 16:59:20 <hmmm> - Selling vehicles with invalid or no orders. error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer' 16:59:58 <hmmm> this type 'null' excepted 'integer' happens way too often in many scripts which include aircraft 17:00:32 <hmmm> chopper (v10) error: 17:01:01 <hmmm> checking for airports that need upgrading... error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer' 17:01:57 <hmmm> also Syntrans 17:02:00 <hmmm> - airport.nut error: the index 'KABOOOOOM_unknown_airport_type' does not exist 17:02:55 <hmmm> cluelessplus and paxlink seem to do aircraft fine enough 17:03:04 <hmmm> terron too 17:05:46 <gelignite> planetmaker, it works. Instead of AIStation::STATION_JOIN_ADJACENT one can use AIStation.GetStationID( TileIndex ); // TileIndex == TileIndex of the station to connect to. 17:06:31 <gelignite> didn't thought of that earlier. I always thought i can use the macros only. :-/ 17:07:28 <planetmaker> :-) good that it works :-) 17:08:12 <hmmm> i think AIAI errors are also related to airport construction, let me check 17:08:41 <hmmm> yup, it is 17:08:42 <hmmm> - Vehicle (Sampson U52) construction failed with ERR_NOT_ENOUGH_CASH(message from AIAI::BuildVehicle), ERR_PRECONDITION_FAILED (before sign construction), engine: Sampson U52, last error is ERR_NONE, debug.nut error: division by zero 17:09:19 <hmmm> if I recall, the AI was trying to build an engine that didn't exist anymore 17:10:07 <hmmm> - Too many vehicles on this route!, Empty AIVehicleList_Station, Invalid vehicle, aftercheck4 1314, last error is ERR_NONE debug.nut error: division by zero 17:10:33 <hmmm> that seemed like the AI was counting the number of attempts it tried to build the non-existant Sampson U52 17:10:51 <hmmm> too many vehicles on this route were actually zero vehicles 17:10:59 <hmmm> odd error 17:15:14 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B417.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 17:16:29 <hmmm> wmdot 17:16:41 <hmmm> - You can't convert a path while there's a running pathfinder. Dominion.Roads.nut error: the index 'remove' does not exist 17:16:53 <hmmm> - CountBuoys() must be supplied with a valid path. OpHibernia.nut error: arith op * on between 'integer' and 'null' 17:17:17 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 17:18:01 <hmmm> roadai v3: 17:18:02 <hmmm> - network.nut error: the index '0' does not exist 17:18:36 <hmmm> now odd behaviours 17:19:01 <hmmm> SimpleAI (v8) 17:19:13 <hmmm> - May not sell old train with breakdowns enabled 17:19:15 <tycoondemon> spam 17:19:33 <hmmm> it is constantly sending the train to a depot 17:19:38 <hmmm> when it breakdowns 17:19:56 <hmmm> at every attempt it does, the train reverses direction 17:20:04 <hmmm> it never gets anywhere 17:20:43 <hmmm> back and forth without entering a depot 17:21:20 <hmmm> - Continuously attempts to build the same route even though it fails 17:21:47 <hmmm> this one is the soloe reason I get bankrupt warnings 17:21:58 <hmmm> thought it never went bankrupt 17:22:36 <hmmm> - Bankrupt warnings with profitable vehicles 17:22:49 <hmmm> well, yeah, that's exactly what I described 17:25:19 <hmmm> Terron 17:25:27 <hmmm> it is very sensitive to game settings 17:26:09 <hmmm> does seem to have problems with expanding road stations 17:26:23 <hmmm> especially when it's close to a bridge 17:26:32 <hmmm> it destroys the bridge 17:26:49 <hmmm> and while the station is expanded, it broke the route 17:29:22 <hmmm> it is also horrible and dealing with rivers 17:29:33 <hmmm> river tiles are its worst route breaker 17:31:04 <NGC3982> Building signals on rails where trains are present. I guess that is a new thing from 1.3.0? 17:31:36 <hmmm> it survived all 10 games thx to great money management 17:32:05 <FLHerne> NGC3982: And very nice it is too :-) 17:32:55 <NGC3982> FLHerne: Indeed! 17:32:57 <NGC3982> :-) 17:33:30 <hmmm> hmm, i'd like to post my findings on the forum, but then again, I don't want to be put up against devs again 17:33:46 <FLHerne> Is there some way to 'svn add' all files added by patches? 17:35:45 <FLHerne> Running make and then adding all the files that it complains don't exist is very silly 17:40:01 *** DarkAce-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.54.92] has joined #openttd 17:43:21 <George> can someone help me with templates in NML? 17:43:26 <George> #define engine_direction_template(name) \ 17:43:27 <George> switch (FEAT_TRAINS, PARENT, t_##name##_get_spriteset, \ 17:43:27 <George> [ \ 17:43:27 <George> STORE_TEMP(count_veh_id(##name##), 0), \ 17:43:27 <George> STORE_TEMP(current_speed, 1), \ 17:43:28 <George> STORE_TEMP(date_of_last_service, 2) \ 17:43:28 <George> ]) \ 17:43:30 <George> { \ 17:43:30 <George> t_##name##_get_spriteset_2; \ 17:43:32 <George> } \ 17:43:32 <George> 17:43:33 <George> engine_direction_template(vl80s) 17:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> George: please use a paste site 17:44:03 <George> but I get src/electric/vl80s.pnml:68:1: error: pasting "(" and "vl80s" does not give a valid preprocessing token 17:44:03 <George> src/electric/vl80s.pnml:68:1: error: pasting "vl80s" and "\" does not give a valid preprocessing token 17:44:25 *** DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@50.107.54.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause> George: like http://paste.openttdcoop.org 17:44:43 <George> http://pastebin.com/Qc9TXhWV 17:45:58 <George> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2277/ 17:46:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25244 /trunk/src/lang (italian.txt spanish.txt) (2013-05-14 17:46:07 UTC) 17:46:16 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:46:17 <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv 17:46:18 <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen 17:46:24 *** goodger [~ben@92.40.253.10.threembb.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause> George: sounds like the preprocessor disagrees with you about the semantics of the ## operator 17:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> George: try veh_id(name) without the ## 17:47:57 <George> Shouldn't it count name instead of vl80s then? 17:48:33 <Eddi|zuHause> vl80s is what you gave as parameter to the macro 17:48:53 <George> yes, it is the vehicle ID name 17:49:11 <hmmm> I'd like to share my set of ideas for some stuff in the game, but part of me already knows I'm gonna be criticized 17:49:54 <Eddi|zuHause> George: use ## if you want to combine the name with another word, leave ## out if you want to just use the name 17:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> George: not entirely sure where the "\" comes from, though. 17:52:26 <hmmm> rail/road crossings - I had an idea to penalize the train owner in a more "reasonable" way when a road vehicle is destroyed - charge the current road vehicle value as a penalty for the train owner 17:52:46 <hmmm> like some indemnization 17:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: so you bankrupt a company by throwing busses at it? 17:53:59 <hmmm> so it's a bad idea 17:54:23 <George> Eddi|zuHause: Thank you! It works! 17:54:23 <hmmm> but it's a lose lose situation 17:54:41 <FLHerne> A better one would be fixing LCs to stop stuff blowing up so often :P 17:55:22 <FLHerne> Things like 'one bus got hit, so vehicles queue up behind it and get hit by the next train on the other line' are just silly 17:55:42 <FLHerne> What's wrong with the adjacent-crossings patch? 17:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it misses a setting for converting old savegames 17:56:24 <hmmm> another idea was to make the road/rail tile to act as a secondary route, only if no other route is found in the vicinity 17:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and someone who can write code for drawing diagonal crossings 17:57:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: it already does that 17:58:00 <hmmm> how does it work exactly? vicinity? 17:58:03 <Eddi|zuHause> both road vehicles and trains get a pathfinder penalty for level crossings 17:58:15 <hmmm> ah 17:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> so if there's a penalty of 800, it will consider a detour of 8 tiles 17:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> to avoid this obstacle 17:59:10 <hmmm> it means it needs a road 8 tiles away from the rail/road cross? 17:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the road penalty is a bit higher, afaik 18:00:12 <hmmm> does it consider tunnels? 18:00:39 <hmmm> I saw some buses in some game that could get away if it had picked a tunnel 18:00:48 <Eddi|zuHause> why wouldn't it? 18:00:53 <hmmm> instead of going the shortest way via a rail/road cross 18:01:16 <hmmm> the distance, for human, was almost the same between the 2 stations 18:01:20 <hmmm> in either route 18:01:46 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 18:02:16 <hmmm> it picked the road/rail cross more often 18:02:34 <hmmm> it depended only if it had to do a service at a depot more closer to the tunnel 18:02:50 <hmmm> that were the only times those buses went via tunnel 18:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i don't find the right setting in the config 18:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> might be this one: yapf.road_crossing_penalty = 300 18:06:18 <hmmm> there is yet another idea 18:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but the value seems a bit low 18:06:29 <hmmm> ah 18:07:39 <hmmm> there is a train signal that makes the crossing turn red for road vehicles even when the train is way further away from that 18:08:00 <hmmm> I saw it happen a few times 18:08:05 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 18:08:08 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 18:08:25 <FLHerne> hmmm: Path signals (both types) 18:08:46 <FLHerne> If there's a path reserved across the crossing, the barriers go down 18:08:59 <hmmm> interesting 18:09:31 <hmmm> the idea was based on this behaviour 18:10:23 <hmmm> to have some 'invisible' signals on the rail route that would only affect the crossing 18:10:57 <hmmm> only affect road vehicle 18:11:39 <hmmm> it wouldn't be fool proof, but would drasticaly reduce the number of accidents 18:12:13 <Alberth> a bridge is much safer :p 18:12:25 <hmmm> yeah, tell that to the train owner 18:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: traditionally, what these signals did was turn doubletracks into a death trap 18:15:03 <gelignite> i like hitting vehicles with my trains. especially competitors' vehicles. :-) that's my favorite turn to reduce their fleets :) 18:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the adjacent crossings patch solves that somewhat 18:15:51 <hmmm> ah, those queuing 18:15:58 <hmmm> yeah, that's a problem 18:18:38 <hmmm> well, my least elegant idea was 18:19:00 <hmmm> a chance that the train is also destroyed when colliding with road vehicle 18:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that'll go really well with players :p 18:20:15 <hmmm> can't say how much of a chance 18:20:26 <hmmm> 5%? 18:20:31 <hmmm> 1%? 18:21:05 <hmmm> there's always those abusers who will do it on purpose 18:21:27 <hmmm> the train is never destroyed, but now it would have a chance to happen 18:22:18 <hmmm> or then, the exact opposite 18:22:24 <hmmm> neither is destroyed 18:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the only case i know where that happened was when the RV had dangerous cargo like fuel 18:22:43 <hmmm> sort of like ghost mode, go-through each other 18:24:42 *** goodger [~ben@92.40.253.10.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:24:45 <hmmm> now I want to talk about rivers 18:25:05 <hmmm> nice addition 18:25:14 <hmmm> screws up many AIs 18:25:40 <hmmm> but it's rather expensive 18:25:43 <hmmm> to build canals 18:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you can use a base cost mod 18:26:46 <hmmm> no one likes NewGRFs. erm, ok, nearly no one 18:26:54 <hmmm> at least those I've been playing with 18:27:15 <hmmm> it is unattractive 18:27:39 <FLHerne> hmmm: No-one likes NewGRFs in general!? 18:27:50 <hmmm> yes, the most populated servers 18:28:02 <hmmm> are those without any NewGRF requirement 18:28:03 <Alberth> that's a VERY small sample 18:28:05 <FLHerne> hmmm: Ah, servers are different 18:28:17 <FLHerne> But they're a tiny proportion of total players 18:28:38 <Alberth> ever looked at the screenshots forum? Please find a screenshot without newgrfs 18:28:43 <FLHerne> Trouble is, it's difficult to find a bunch of people who like the *same* combination of grfs :P 18:29:14 <hmmm> if something is "official", then everyone will expect the same settings 18:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and then get all the GRFs to those people 18:29:23 <hmmm> same costs, same kind of mechanic 18:29:27 <FLHerne> So you run a server with a bunch of grfs you like, and no-one joins because they think 'Oh, I like those grfs, but I hate that other one. Shame' :-( 18:29:31 <Alberth> FLHerne: just like finding agreement on which settings are obsolete :) 18:29:37 <FLHerne> Been there, done that... 18:29:51 <FLHerne> Not with the settings, servers :P 18:30:09 <Alberth> :) 18:30:34 <hmmm> settings come next 18:30:42 <Alberth> haha :) 18:30:51 <FLHerne> Similarly, I'd love to play Cargodist MP 18:30:54 <hmmm> first thing I do when joining a server is to find one without NewGRF requirements 18:31:09 <hmmm> then to find one with settings I see fair 18:31:10 <FLHerne> but there aren't enough other people who want to, especially with the grfs I want to play with 18:31:53 <hmmm> tendency for the most populated servers are usually small maps 18:32:02 <hmmm> 256x512 or 512x512 18:32:17 <hmmm> larger than this and it becomes least attractive 18:32:20 <V453000> Alberth: that is the biggest sample 18:32:40 <V453000> try having a server without newGRFs, you get enormous amount of players 18:32:44 <hmmm> aircraft also seem to attract players 18:32:48 <V453000> literally Players 18:32:51 <hmmm> even if there's a cap 18:33:00 <Alberth> V: :D 18:33:25 <Alberth> hmmm: set the cap to 0 :p 18:34:14 <V453000> but, to not make it seem like I agree with hmm, server without newGRFs is often full of idiots and trolls, but yes, they are in large quantity 18:34:19 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.75.95] has joined #openttd 18:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, since when does 512^2 qualify as a "small" map? 18:34:48 <hmmm> in fact, the better the number of possible transportation types, the better it helps to get a populated server 18:35:05 <Alberth> V453000: I was thinking "new users", but fair enough :) 18:35:23 <hmmm> 512x512, if the settings and map layout are attractive enough, will have ppl stay and play for longer 18:35:34 <Alberth> hmmm: what are you getting at? Explaining to us how to attract players? 18:35:49 <hmmm> yes, kinda 18:35:57 <Alberth> tbh, I don't care at all 18:36:01 <V453000> hmmm: I use newGRFs in Every game and our server is always with around 10 companies or more 18:36:01 <hmmm> ok 18:36:21 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Since someone invented 2048^2 ones :P 18:36:45 <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: huge maps are not popular in MP because they get unplayable after a while 18:36:45 <Alberth> FLHerne: and they still complain it's not big enough :p 18:37:09 <hmmm> I don't have that impression 18:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> because they slow down computers rather early, and then half the people can't play anymore 18:37:32 <hmmm> big maps are usually for ppl who come in, build a gigantic route then go afk forever 18:37:43 <hmmm> that's not great imo 18:38:01 <hmmm> it feels like a "lone" server 18:38:05 <hmmm> like there's no one there 18:38:11 <hmmm> even with companies in it 18:38:42 <hmmm> there's less interaction 18:38:54 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.64.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:39:10 <hmmm> it also detracts ppl who want to start anew 18:39:32 <FLHerne> Alberth: It isn't :P 18:39:35 <hmmm> "oh that guy already have 9999999999 money, I'm out for another server" 18:39:49 <V453000> I am not sure what are you trying to achieve hmmm, but if you want to read how to actually make a really really good server, https://blog.openttdcoop.org/files/blog/V453000/Creating_Maps.PDF 18:39:52 * FLHerne is a large_maps user :D 18:40:22 <Alberth> FLHerne: I just get very much lost on those maps :) 18:40:40 <V453000> more than 512x512 is pointless 18:40:44 <FLHerne> Alberth: Play them between four people, on and off for a few months :P 18:40:59 <V453000> you can put more than 3000 trains on 512x512, which demolishes any cpu for multiplayer playing 18:41:02 <FLHerne> It slowly fills up a bit, and we don't like overly busy-looking maps 18:41:23 <V453000> oh yeah, busy would be terrible 18:41:27 <FLHerne> V453000: You *can*, but then your entire world is made of tracks :P 18:41:30 <Alberth> FLHerne: I never play a game for more than a few days in total 18:41:42 <FLHerne> V453000: We had this argument already :D 18:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i've tried large maps like 2048x1024 before. i usually connect half the towns, and after 50 game years the network gets so complex that i have to improve stuff here and there and i don't get to connect anything anymore 18:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that was with low number of towns 18:42:09 <Alberth> FLHerne: everything full of tracks is very natural endpoint of the game :p 18:42:34 <FLHerne> Alberth: It's a horrible-looking endpoint though, so larger maps are useful to avoid reaching t :D 18:42:42 <Alberth> :) 18:42:50 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.75.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:43:12 <FLHerne> A better endpoint is 'all the towns and industries are connected by a semi-realistic UK-style rail and road network' :P 18:43:26 <Alberth> I do play weirdly sized maps, like 128x1024 or so 18:43:47 <Alberth> realistic? can you do that with NUTS? 18:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> "Endpoint" of a 128x256 map: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB) 18:44:07 <FLHerne> Alberth: Nah, who'd want to use something as ugly as NUTS? :D 18:44:21 <V453000> bitch :D 18:44:24 * FLHerne is aware of its creator's presence :P 18:44:58 <V453000> strike back: empty map: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/SLUG%20NEST%2C%202141-08-23.png 18:46:40 <hmmm> All pathfinders should be YAPF, with forbidden 90deg turns and allowed RV queueing being basically 18:46:43 <Alberth> FLHerne: I do, a very easy to use vehicle set 18:46:44 <hmmm> im reading that guide 18:46:51 <hmmm> that's something I disagree 18:47:03 <hmmm> well I agree with YAPF for everything 18:47:04 <FLHerne> Alberth: I was joking :P 18:47:13 * FLHerne personally wouldn't, though 18:47:15 <hmmm> but not with 90 degrees and rv queue 18:47:43 <hmmm> YAPF hates 90 degrees with ships 18:47:53 <hmmm> "ship is lost" no it's not 18:48:27 <hmmm> rv queue will make lorry stations to clog 18:48:30 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I have about the first 20 tiles height, then my browser thought it to be enough :) 18:48:34 <hmmm> better to have them constantly moving 18:48:36 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-162.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 18:49:45 <hmmm> bus stops with full loads 18:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: must be a server issue, i can't get the picture either 18:50:06 <hmmm> I try to prevent that when I set a game 18:50:28 <hmmm> those two.way bus stops are still a problem 18:50:54 <Alberth> hmmm: it's no doubt all very interesting, but you are aware that everybody plays a different OpenTTD game? 18:51:24 <Alberth> that's why you have so many settings and newgrfs, everybody can tweak it to his/her own liking 18:51:27 <hmmm> for road networks I find rv queue a problem 18:52:00 * Alberth prefers the word "challenge" 18:52:05 *** LordAro|Phone [~LordAro@host81-148-243-17.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 18:52:17 <Alberth> hi, phone of LordAro 18:52:20 <hmmm> ok, a challenge if I'm playing alone 18:52:30 <hmmm> but a problem with multiple companies using road vehicles 18:52:54 <hmmm> if one inudstry or so dies 18:53:00 <hmmm> full loading 18:53:07 <hmmm> with queue 18:53:20 <LordAro|Phone> hi, irc client of Alberth :-) 18:53:22 <hmmm> is really hmm... hard to cope with 18:53:35 <hmmm> especially if the other player is not there anymore 18:54:07 <hmmm> it is using my road 18:54:15 <hmmm> i can't remove that road 18:54:23 <hmmm> there's his trucks on it 18:54:34 <hmmm> I could adjust my route 18:54:48 <hmmm> but sometimes that route isn't 100% mine 18:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't know what kind of hiccups the server had, but it seems to work better now 18:55:48 <hmmm> sometimes I depend on his route, and he depends on mine 18:56:10 <hmmm> well, it's just my view of it 18:56:23 <Alberth> indeed, goes much better now 18:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, my "full" map has way less tracks than V's "empty" map :p 18:57:52 <hmmm> ah, this setting Deliver cargo to a station only when there is a demand: On 18:58:03 <hmmm> think I must be the only one who prefers it Off 18:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and it's people like you that prevents us from removing this setting :p 18:58:29 <hmmm> no one has complained about it when Off yet 18:58:43 <hmmm> feels more natural to me 18:58:53 <hmmm> i build a station, and i get cargo there 18:58:57 <hmmm> already waiting 18:59:05 <hmmm> now i just end up building the rest of the route 18:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not when you have dedicated stations for delivery and for pickup 18:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> means half the cargo is going to the pickup station and wasted 19:00:27 <hmmm> that is something I disagree 19:00:34 <hmmm> it's true what you say 19:01:01 <hmmm> but I find that it actually makes me see what I can do 19:01:06 <hmmm> what more I can do 19:01:12 <hmmm> sometimes I'm really bored 19:01:32 <hmmm> and i end up seeing what's waiting on my stations and surprise myself... wow I could transport all that cargo 19:01:40 <hmmm> didn't even notice 19:01:45 <hmmm> a good pretext to continue building 19:02:04 <hmmm> so, somewhat I think it keeps ppl doing more stuff 19:02:17 * Alberth has enough problems to move all the cargo he asks for already 19:03:06 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it's a nice map, tracks can still be followed and admired :) 19:03:28 <Alberth> what's that grey track at the middle of south-east? 19:03:33 <hmmm> sort of a new "motivation" 19:04:14 <Alberth> near the bottom border 19:04:36 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-228-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 19:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the NuTracks high speed thingies 19:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause> (older version of NuTracks) 19:06:21 <Alberth> I should try nutracks one time 19:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really like the newer NuTracks 19:07:27 <hmmm> oh, about industries and multiple of the same type 19:07:31 <hmmm> banks 19:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> too noisy and too little difference between tracktypes 19:07:40 <hmmm> multiple banks from temperate 19:07:44 <hmmm> is a problem 19:08:06 <hmmm> they should be considered a primary industry 19:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: yes, that has been mentioned before. also water towers 19:08:22 <hmmm> water towers are secondary 19:08:35 <hmmm> there's not much of an issue in that one imo 19:08:40 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it's difficult to stop more things to a set 19:08:43 <hmmm> but banks produce both 19:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: but it looks silly if every second house is a water tower 19:08:45 <Alberth> +adding 19:09:16 <hmmm> a player could just build massive number of banks and transport valuables to each other 19:09:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i mean the graphics 19:09:50 <hmmm> even when the setting forbids to fund primary industries 19:09:51 <Alberth> ah, not the track types? 19:09:57 <hmmm> why's that? 19:10:03 <Alberth> how do those differ then? just speed? 19:10:08 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.78.46] has joined #openttd 19:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the track types haven't changed much. yes, they only differ in speed, but afair you can set the speeds for each 19:10:31 <Alberth> hmmm: a bank is not a primary industry 19:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: and construction price, of course 19:11:04 <hmmm> it is, I could build multiple banks with that setting off 19:11:08 <hmmm> on temperate 19:11:53 <hmmm> it accepts valuables, but also produces valuables 19:12:11 <Alberth> right, I am not sure I want to worry much about speed of tracks, my trains are usually slow enough :p 19:12:38 <Alberth> hmmm: it accepts cargo means it's not a primary industry in the default set 19:13:13 <hmmm> should be an exception then? 19:13:24 <Alberth> make a newgrf for it 19:13:28 <hmmm> :( 19:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> lmao :p 19:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> nice turn to the beginning of the discussion :p 19:15:44 <hmmm> yeah I got lost again 19:15:48 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:07 *** TWerkhoven [~TWerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:23 *** TWerkhoven [~TWerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:18:20 <Alberth> the default set is what it is, and is not going to change since changing it would break all old save games 19:18:49 <Alberth> the way to tweak the game to what you prefer is by game scripts and newgrfs 19:19:03 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:20:00 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 19:20:01 <hmmm> ok, :( 19:20:19 <Alberth> if you prefer to ignore that big part of the game, I'd say it's your loss 19:20:27 <hmmm> I wont bother arguing 19:20:33 *** Ristovski [~rafael@78.157.7.34] has joined #openttd 19:20:45 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:21:18 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 19:22:21 <hmmm> ah, wanted to also talk about terraforming, this is something difficult to explain because it also involves autoslope and bridges 19:23:06 <hmmm> ships can get totally blocked by a town owned bridge when autoslope is on 19:23:45 * Alberth ponders creating #openttd.suggestions 19:24:11 <hmmm> I wanted an option that prevents towns to build autosloped bridges 19:24:32 <hmmm> there's an option that completely disables towns from building bridges, which I find excessive 19:24:44 <V453000> Alberth: ultimately useless channel? :D 19:24:48 <hmmm> :( 19:25:02 <hmmm> the bridge starting tile 19:25:25 <hmmm> it's large enough to cover all that tile with water 19:25:40 <hmmm> if a ship was depending on that piece of water to get by 19:25:41 <Alberth> V453000: redirecting people to the right channel is always useful ;) 19:25:51 <hmmm> it will be blocked 19:26:21 <V453000> :P 19:26:25 <hmmm> bad for AIs that use ships, they're not too smart to deal with this 19:28:21 <hmmm> now terraforming, I really would like to have a feature that is not a NewGRF that would prevent leveling down to water level or up from water level, all those other levels would be possible 19:28:45 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:28:50 <hmmm> too much to ask.? 19:28:53 <hmmm> :( 19:30:45 <Alberth> depends on your expectations who will do the actual work 19:31:10 <hmmm> essentially no terraforming below a certain level 19:31:38 <hmmm> yeh, i know I ask too much 19:33:18 <hmmm> could be applied to autoslope as well 19:33:28 <hmmm> no autosloping below that same certain level 19:33:43 <hmmm> meh... I talk too much 19:34:53 <V453000> code ie 19:34:56 <V453000> it* 19:35:19 <frosch123> just use a basecost newgrf and increase clear water cost by factor 1024 19:35:43 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should prevent towns from clearing (half-) water tiles? 19:36:41 <hmmm> "cannot raise land.... water in the way" 19:36:43 <hmmm> :) 19:37:07 <LordAro|Phone> V453000: you scared me for a little bit there - why would anyone want to code Internet Explorer?? :3 19:37:14 <V453000> raise clear water cost factor by 64000 19:37:38 <Alberth> LordAro|Phone: improving it is easy? :) 19:37:48 <hmmm> problem is.... water above that level could be terraformed 19:37:56 <hmmm> I thought about this 19:38:04 <hmmm> rivers 19:38:26 <hmmm> they're kind of ruining my suggestion 19:39:27 <hmmm> if only river tiles were set to be permanent objects 19:40:11 <frosch123> increase clear river cost by factor 1024 19:40:30 <hmmm> takes a NewGRF for that 19:41:08 <frosch123> hmm, i believe clear water and clear river is the same :p 19:41:16 <frosch123> only clear canal is separate 19:41:43 <hmmm> couldn't river tiles be treated the same way those lighthouses are? 19:42:59 <hmmm> canal is different, that is company owned stuff 19:43:10 <hmmm> can be destroyed 19:43:38 <frosch123> make no sense for lakes 19:43:45 <V453000> raise the cost so it cannot be demolished 19:43:47 <frosch123> you would also have to forbit leveling sea 19:43:59 <V453000> oh wait you hate newGRFs 19:44:00 <V453000> too bad 19:44:48 <hmmm> what I hate about newgrf is that it's considered "non-default" 19:44:55 <hmmm> like some mod 19:45:10 <hmmm> something extra for the original game, but not the original game 19:45:38 <LordAro|Phone> In fairness, using "use a newgrf" to fix a games balancing issues is a pretty poor excuse 19:45:44 <hmmm> like i'm playing something unofficial 19:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: and AIs are not? 19:46:39 <hmmm> AIs are 19:46:49 <hmmm> they dont' require the player who joins the server 19:46:58 <hmmm> to download any extra 19:47:06 <hmmm> it's "transparent" 19:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so what you're really saying is to make transferring the NewGRFs on join transparent for the user= 19:47:47 <Eddi|zuHause> ? 19:48:02 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 19:48:15 <hmmm> hmmm if it's really happening 19:48:21 <hmmm> but not locally stored forever, yes 19:48:25 <hmmm> like an AI 19:48:59 *** chester_ [~chester@128-68-130-45.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:49:23 <hmmm> when someone joins one of my games with an AI running, he's not downloading the AI 19:49:35 <hmmm> but there's an AI running 19:49:57 <hmmm> when he leaves the game, he doesn't get the AI 19:50:21 <hmmm> it is host dependant 19:50:26 <hmmm> not client 19:51:29 <V453000> your suggestions are amazing 19:51:32 <LordAro|Phone> That would require a massive change to the client-server set up 19:52:52 <hmmm> er...? 19:53:20 <hmmm> hope it is 19:55:01 <LordAro|Phone> V453000: don't be mean to newbies - you were one once ;) 19:55:44 <V453000> yes but I didnt suggest things which are already solvable, it just "doesnt feel default" 19:56:53 <hmmm> I had one succesful game set on arctic tileset with an AI running 19:57:06 <hmmm> I say successful becase there were other players 19:57:17 <hmmm> not those who join and leave 19:57:38 <hmmm> lasted well over 50 years 19:57:54 <hmmm> it was AroAI i think 19:58:07 * LordAro|Phone woops 19:58:38 <LordAro|Phone> As in, woot woot 19:58:43 <LordAro|Phone> Yay :) 19:58:45 <hmmm> they made aircraft, AroAI however had many old buses though 19:59:08 <hmmm> still, it was working out fine for 2 other guys 19:59:35 <hmmm> I was the one who went mass trucks though and those buses kinda slowed me 20:00:15 <LordAro|Phone> I haven't done any development on AroAI in over a year - I never did get around to implementing more 'advanced' features :L 20:01:34 <hmmm> I saw helicopters, airplanes, trains and ships 20:01:48 <hmmm> diverse enough for my tasting, hence I say succesful 20:02:20 <hmmm> trains were hard really 20:02:26 <hmmm> 'cus im biased against them 20:02:48 <hmmm> but they managed to deal with it with a bit of my help 20:04:52 <hmmm> was toying with the realistic acceleration settings 20:05:02 <hmmm> 10% for steepness 20:05:12 <hmmm> weigth x3 20:05:56 <hmmm> had to teach them to make tunnels, bridges and smooth-scape hills for those trains 20:06:16 <hmmm> they really don't like to plan routes 20:06:26 <hmmm> but this is how I wanted 20:06:37 <hmmm> how I intended trains to be 20:06:45 <hmmm> hard with cliffs 20:06:52 * Alberth also doesn't plan routes 20:07:13 <frosch123> LordAro|Phone: am i allowed to contribute a palindrome generator to aroai? :p 20:08:19 <LordAro|Phone> If you like :D 20:09:01 <hmmm> in the end 20:09:15 <hmmm> it felt like locomotion 20:09:19 <juzza1> George: did you solve your previous problem with liveries yet? it just occured to me, that maybe changing the scope of the switch from SELF to PARENT would help 20:09:26 <hmmm> trains can't just go uphill 20:09:38 <hmmm> you have to plan a better route if you need them to go uphill 20:10:31 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/long_way_up.png ? 20:11:02 <hmmm> ahaha, bad example 20:11:09 <George> juzza1: Well.. no. I changed from SELF to PARENT, but there is a bug left - when you split a train in depot it gets old graphics. When coming out it becomes new. 20:11:16 <alluke> nice building 20:11:22 <George> so, a problem is seen in depot only 20:11:35 <George> but it can't be solved inside GRF 20:11:45 <Terkhen> good night 20:11:51 <juzza1> ok 20:12:03 <hmmm> in locomotion, to have a train to succefully go up a level 20:12:04 <frosch123> Alberth: haha, you do the same sillyness as i do :) long way up, straight down when empty on retour :p 20:12:10 <hmmm> it needs 2 slopes 20:12:35 <hmmm> on my game, it needed 2 slopes as well, but 1 is straight, the other is level 20:12:49 <hmmm> and the train length couldn't be all that large 20:12:59 <Alberth> frosch123: until we add a derailment disaster :p 20:12:59 <hmmm> and have many consecutive hills 20:13:19 <hmmm> either a small train going up many tiles 20:13:29 <hmmm> or a large train going up not that many tiles 20:14:04 <Alberth> frosch123: what do you do with full load downward? 20:14:19 * Alberth also goes straight down :p 20:14:35 <frosch123> actually, i think i switched to building them in parallel the same way 20:14:54 <frosch123> but yeah, empty/full doe snot matter 20:15:28 <LordAro|Phone> Doe snot? Eww :-P 20:15:39 <hmmm> there is still an issue that bothers me yet with the realistic acceleration 20:15:48 <hmmm> making turns 20:15:49 <Alberth> in parallel as 2 tiles wide zigzag up? 20:15:58 <frosch123> sometimes when there is a massive hill (height 10 with only straight slopes), i build the train station at the bottom and do straight heqs transfer 20:16:12 <Alberth> :o 20:16:20 <Alberth> that's a nice one 20:16:31 <hmmm> with realistic acceleration, a small turn doesn't affect speed at all 20:16:57 <hmmm> the original, every turn does affect speed 20:17:04 <frosch123> Alberth: well, somewhat parallel, sometimes you cannot put them next to each other, but need some tiles distance 20:17:37 <frosch123> hmmm: are you sure, i would rather think with original turns do not matter at all 20:17:53 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he meant slopes? 20:17:59 <hmmm> i mean making turns 20:18:18 <hmmm> train needs to turn left by 45 20:18:24 <hmmm> original loses speed 20:18:27 <hmmm> realisting, nothing 20:18:29 <frosch123> with original, even depots were not speed limiting 20:18:46 <frosch123> unless i fixed that recenty... cannot remember whether i changed it or left it 20:18:53 <hmmm> road vehicles lose speed 20:18:56 <hmmm> at every turn 20:19:03 <hmmm> trains not exactly 20:19:15 <LordAro|Phone> 400mph maglev into depot? Choo choo! 20:19:40 <frosch123> LordAro|Phone: i don't think there is a speed limit when running into a black hole 20:20:17 <hmmm> it depends on the whole train lenght and how many turns during train length 20:20:45 <hmmm> the issue happens only if it's only 1 turn 20:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the speed limit is the speed of light, which is the entire point of a black hole :p 20:20:49 <hmmm> no loss in speed 20:21:04 <LordAro|Phone> Can't be a black hole - you get stuff out of it 20:21:07 <Eddi|zuHause> there wouldn't be any black holes without speed of light 20:21:15 <LordAro|Phone> Maybe a wormhole thoigh :) 20:21:16 <hmmm> hmm please? 20:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> wormholes are bridges/tunnels 20:21:49 <hmmm> no one gets what I'm refering? 20:22:48 <hmmm> i need to find the wiki example 20:23:23 <LordAro|Phone> hmmm: we all get what you're referring to, but I don't get what your point is 20:23:51 <hmmm> http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Vehicle_speeds 20:24:43 <hmmm> the 200 km/h one 20:24:45 <Alberth> frosch123: I once had 2 parallel tracks up :) http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/Flonbourne_Bridge_Transport_1981-08-29.png 20:24:53 <hmmm> it goes constantly at 200 20:25:00 <hmmm> should not be like that 20:25:09 <hmmm> should lose speed at every turn 20:25:43 <hmmm> not a cap on max speed, just subtracting speed from it's current speed 20:26:04 <alluke> planetmaker: do trains avoid bridges if there are routes without them available? 20:26:59 <hmmm> the 132 kmh example is fine 20:27:11 <hmmm> that is a cap on the max speed 20:28:53 <hmmm> essentially, I want a mix of both original and realistic for trains making turns 20:29:00 <hmmm> that would be ideal 20:29:38 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/hilltrack.png <- Alberth :) 20:29:55 <frosch123> confuses me every time i look at it 20:30:00 <Alberth> LordAro|Phone: there is no point, it's just explaining the one true way of how openttd should behave, under the assumption that everybody plays the same way and has the same interests in the game 20:30:08 <frosch123> it looks like 2 track in one direction, and four in the other 20:30:18 * Alberth clicks the links very carefully.... 20:31:12 <Alberth> indeed :) 20:31:25 <V453000> you need stepped climbing for strong trains? I am not even asking what is the weight multiplier and slope_steepness 20:32:43 <hmmm> is that question for me? 20:33:07 <frosch123> V453000: ofc its choosen in a way it is fun :p 20:33:31 <V453000> well making medium and fast classes worthless aint fun :P 20:33:56 <frosch123> why, you can use them downhill, or in flat terrain 20:34:02 <Alberth> V453000: I also build these zigzags up the hill even when not needed, it looks so much better :) 20:34:10 <V453000> :D nuff sed 20:34:15 <frosch123> and if you play with breakdowns, acceleration is not nearly as important as you always claim :p 20:34:33 <V453000> omfg breakdowns 20:34:33 <hmmm> who? 20:34:51 <hmmm> breakdowns are to be taked into consideration when planning a train route 20:34:55 <hmmm> taken 20:35:07 <frosch123> V453000: i cannot help you, if you remove essential gameplay elements, and then complain that there are not enough criterions for choices :p 20:35:16 <Alberth> :D 20:35:37 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 20:35:54 <V453000> :D breakdowns arent essential :D 20:36:02 <V453000> also I never complained there arent enough choices 20:36:19 <hmmm> I'm lost, what are you guys talking about? 20:36:40 <Alberth> openttd, what else? 20:36:49 <LordAro|Phone> :-P 20:36:56 <hmmm> yes:( 20:37:02 <frosch123> hmmm: we are trapped in a time cyclus, ocassionaly we just talk about the same 20:37:21 <hmmm> try these settings 20:37:31 <hmmm> steepness 10%, weigth x3 20:37:39 <hmmm> max length 5 20:37:47 <frosch123> hmmm: but then there is no point in fast engines :p 20:38:17 <hmmm> there is 20:38:37 <LordAro|Phone> Oop, hi Zuu 20:38:38 <alluke> lol 20:38:48 <alluke> i have never used breakdowns in my games 20:38:52 <hmmm> just need to build smoother 20:38:55 <hmmm> routes 20:39:27 <hmmm> or use the alternative 20:39:31 <hmmm> road vehicles 20:39:54 <hmmm> if the route is just too damn hilly for train 20:39:56 <V453000> are you aware that all of the people you are telling this to know kind of a lot of stuff about openttd? 20:40:02 <hmmm> yes 20:40:27 <frosch123> hmmm: how do wetrails work with 10% slope? 20:40:35 <alluke> hmm 20:40:42 <hmmm> wetrail? 20:40:46 <V453000> frosch123: newGRFs are prohibited 20:40:48 <alluke> if the route is too hilly , build serpentine rails 20:40:53 <hmmm> railroad? 20:41:02 <alluke> yes 20:41:04 <alluke> curvy 20:41:11 <alluke> smooth incline 20:41:14 <frosch123> V453000: what, he is talking about only default engines? 20:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> if the route is too hilly, don't use rails 20:41:29 <hmmm> exactly zu 20:41:36 <hmmm> use road vehicle 20:41:45 <V453000> strong trains? 20:41:47 <V453000> :d 20:41:48 <hmmm> if the route is straigth forward 20:41:51 <hmmm> use train 20:41:52 <frosch123> "zu" is an awesome nickname :p 20:41:57 <Eddi|zuHause> :p 20:42:07 <frosch123> "zu" from team "eddi" 20:42:23 <hmmm> er, you evil ppl 20:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. we're so evil we get distracted by side-discussions when the conversation gets boring 20:43:35 <V453000> XD 20:44:39 <hmmm> you focus too much on trains 20:44:56 <V453000> certainly 20:45:17 <V453000> get 2000 trains on 512x512 then we can talk again :) 20:45:18 <frosch123> i am not sure whether wetrails counts as trains 20:45:24 <V453000> frosch123: probably does :P 20:45:59 <hmmm> when the thought of trains not being able to do everything in the game comes up, you're quick to disregard me 20:46:28 <frosch123> maybe V, i use trams and ships regulary 20:46:39 <hmmm> i believe trains are supposed to be weak on turns and hills 20:46:51 <frosch123> sometimes helicopters when i really want to transport gold or valueables 20:46:54 <alluke> obly tight turns 20:46:57 <alluke> only* 20:46:58 <hmmm> weak, perhaps I shall say, severely underpowered 20:47:03 <alluke> and big hills 20:47:03 <FLHerne> hmmm: The trouble is, that trains *can* be forced to do everything, if you're V453000 and enjoy making the entire world into a rail junction ;-) 20:47:06 <V453000> trains give unchallenged amount of options in compare to any other vehicle type, in the long term building with trains is endlessly more interesting 20:47:12 <hmmm> so that other vehicle types are the answer 20:47:13 <alluke> trains have so much inertia they roll easily over small hills 20:47:35 <alluke> with enough speed 20:47:36 <hmmm> to make it more diverse when picking what transport to use 20:47:45 * Alberth just adds more engines :) 20:48:16 <hmmm> it's a bit sad no one agrees 20:48:19 <V453000> superstrong class if all else fails :D 20:48:32 <FLHerne> hmmm: So increase the cargo multiplier and hill steppness for trains 20:48:41 <hmmm> yes 20:48:48 <FLHerne> hmmm: Then your trains will be weak, and slow on hills :P 20:48:58 <FLHerne> Those are both in the settings somewhere ;-) 20:49:05 <hmmm> but pure straigths on the same level with realistic acceleration is still easier than the original 20:49:35 <FLHerne> hmmm: If you increase the cargo weight multiplier, it's not... 20:49:38 <Alberth> hmmm: it's not sad, it means everybody can play it in his/her favorite way 20:49:41 <alluke> the original acceleration model is the second worst thing after auschwitz 20:49:48 <frosch123> hmmm: well, your points are a bit week, if you make false claims about original acceleration in curves, and if you deny to play with newgrf, and thus never had a chance to learn about power and tractive effort 20:49:53 <V453000> XD I will remember that alluke 20:49:54 <V453000> well said 20:50:05 <hmmm> i played with realistic acceleration 20:50:14 <FLHerne> hmmm: There are enough settings that you can make your trains perform in a wide variety of ways 20:50:17 <hmmm> i enjoyed to see maglevs unable to go uphill 20:50:27 <hmmm> it needed torque 20:50:30 <hmmm> or smother hilsl 20:50:34 <FLHerne> If you can't change enough settings, make a NewGRF in which trains behave as you wish 20:50:35 <hmmm> or tunnels 20:50:37 <hmmm> or bridges 20:50:39 <hmmm> that's it 20:50:45 <hmmm> that's the best aspect of realistic 20:50:56 <hmmm> but on turns 20:51:03 <hmmm> realistic is actually easier for trains 20:51:05 <Alberth> except openttd does not aim at realism :) 20:51:11 <alluke> lol 20:51:15 <alluke> my ottd games do 20:51:22 <FLHerne> Alberth: A lot of its grf-makers and players do :P 20:51:23 <V453000> SO IT DOES. 20:51:31 <hmmm> if someone terraforms the whole route 20:51:32 <V453000> :P 20:51:37 <hmmm> which happens so often 20:51:42 <alluke> i use only real-life stuff and realistic building 20:51:49 <alluke> and 2cc is cancer 20:51:50 <hmmm> realistic will become more profitable 20:51:54 <hmmm> than original 20:52:02 <hmmm> turns should deter that 20:52:04 <FLHerne> This city is tolerably realistic, I think http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=169787 20:52:17 <Alberth> FLHerne: yes, most newgrfs contain too much stuff to be useful or understandable for me :( 20:52:23 <hmmm> so I enjoy turns from original accel and cliffs climbing from realistic 20:52:32 <alluke> hmm 20:52:36 <hmmm> and i'd propose both 20:52:39 <alluke> build faster curves 20:52:40 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:52:40 <hmmm> on the same 20:52:44 <FLHerne> hmmm: It's possible to reduce the effect of curve radius by newgrf ;-) 20:52:57 <FLHerne> UKRS2 already does that for tilting trains 20:53:06 <alluke> trains cant take \_/ curves 80kmh irl 20:53:11 <Alberth> FLHerne: it looks pretty, I don't have the patience to make such things 20:53:48 *** Markk [~mark@rikskriminalpolisen.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:55 *** Markk [~mark@rikskriminalpolisen.com] has joined #openttd 20:58:10 <hmmm> what about a configurable setting for turns? 20:58:14 <hmmm> on the realistic 20:59:52 <hmmm> i can tweak acceleration with weigth, hill climbing with steepness, but turns aren't all that much customizable 20:59:58 <FLHerne> hmmm: The devs don't like to add settings for things that can be done in newgrf 21:00:28 <hmmm> ok :( 21:00:50 <alluke> hmm: whats your problems with turns 21:01:03 <Alberth> it gives chaos when having two captains at a ship in such cases 21:01:21 <alluke> post a screenie of one turn and whats wrong with it 21:01:26 <hmmm> ok 21:01:26 <Alberth> alluke: read the monologue of the past hour or so? :) 21:01:39 <alluke> i think ive got it 21:01:42 <hmmm> it's all about the speed at which turns are done 21:01:43 <alluke> but still 21:02:13 <alluke> i hate it when people dont understand the basic laws of physics and then moan about realistic simulation 21:02:25 <hmmm> there is a 0 km/h decrease on turns with realistic 21:02:35 <hmmm> but there is a cap to the max speed on turns 21:02:55 <hmmm> maybe I can't make myself clear on this 21:03:16 <hmmm> original: train goes at 112 km/h - makes a simple turn 45º 21:03:19 <hmmm> loses speed 21:03:23 <hmmm> GOOD! I like it 21:03:37 <alluke> make the turn broader 21:03:38 <hmmm> realistic: train goes at 112 km/h - same a simple turn 45º - still 112 21:03:40 <hmmm> BAD 21:03:40 <alluke> easy fix 21:03:52 <hmmm> tell me 21:04:29 <alluke> good night 21:04:29 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:05:57 <hmmm> i prefer to have every kind of turn to impact current speed, but not cap the speed 21:06:27 <hmmm> if it goes at 112 km/h, lose some speed, perhaps -15 km/h 21:06:36 <hmmm> at every kind of turn 21:06:53 <hmmm> so, it goes down to 97 km/h 21:07:24 <hmmm> if it goes at 150 km/h, lose that same speed to 135 21:07:24 *** goodger [~ben@host86-129-10-138.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 21:07:48 <hmmm> right now, the perfect turns end up not impacting speed at all with realistic 21:07:57 <hmmm> perfectly lay out on the track 21:08:01 <Rubidium> but... train's can't make 45 degree turns, so you should forbid them from going through those turns 21:08:42 <Rubidium> also, in the real world there are many turns that have absolutely no impact on speed 21:10:14 <hmmm> road vehicles, even with realistic, lose speed at every turn 21:10:16 <hmmm> why not trains 21:10:22 <Rubidium> e.g. (some) high speed switches have such large radii that the straight and divergent track have the same maximum speed 21:11:13 <hmmm> a perfect lay out of tracks 21:11:23 <hmmm> will still allow a train to go max speed, no impact 21:11:32 <hmmm> even if it's zig zag 21:11:39 <hmmm> do that with a road vehicle 21:11:45 <hmmm> it doesn't happen the same 21:12:02 <Rubidium> if road vehicles have 45 degree turns, they won't do that either 21:12:34 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 21:13:03 <hmmm> thank you for understanding me, english is bad for me 21:13:25 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:13:40 <hmmm> i'm getting worse at it by the day 21:16:23 <Rubidium> ah... there she is: the 1:39.173 switch http://www.infrasite.nl/images/railpedia/attachments/80283226/80446346.jpg (those yellow things in the track are near the tongue) 21:17:34 <Rubidium> these have a maximum divergent speed of 160 km/h, while 160 km/h is also the maximum line speed, i.e. for the straight track 21:18:21 *** chester_ [~chester@128-68-130-45.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:19:47 *** DarkAce-Z is now known as DarkAceZ 21:19:59 *** Speedy [~speedy@the.wrong.domain.name] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:20:32 <hmmm> what can you see as good in the realistic train accel in your opinion? 21:20:42 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:21:24 <hmmm> well, nevermind 21:23:34 <hmmm> i don't know anything about real life so i can't talk about that 21:23:48 <hmmm> how trains work 21:25:59 <hmmm> think I've exposed all my concerns 21:26:12 <planetmaker> @logs 21:26:13 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd 21:26:27 <frosch123> planetmaker: you haven't missed anything :p 21:26:34 <planetmaker> ok :D 21:27:04 <hmmm> oh, building a bridge over company-owned land, is that intended behaviour? 21:27:15 <hmmm> last thing, then i'm gone 21:27:30 <frosch123> planetmaker: it could only have been worse if belugas would have joined the discussion :p 21:27:59 <frosch123> hmmm: fs#5524 21:28:30 <hmmm> yes 21:28:36 <hmmm> is that intended? 21:28:59 <Rubidium> and now the inverse question: should I be able to box someone in by just buying land? 21:28:59 <frosch123> night 21:29:07 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff058.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:22 <hmmm> no 21:30:18 <Rubidium> that answer implies that building a bridge over company owned land is okay (to prevent boxing in) 21:30:33 <hmmm> neither are 21:31:21 <Rubidium> anyhow, the best solution is to remove company owned land 21:32:04 <hmmm> but in my view, when someone reserves land, no one expects to be able to counter-measure it 21:32:13 <hmmm> it's still two wrongs 21:33:13 *** sla_ro|master [~boty@89.137.75.224] has quit [] 21:34:14 <hmmm> for the sake of intended behaviour, I think building a bridge over someone else's land shouldn't be possible 21:37:24 <planetmaker> no bridge over rail or road or canal? 21:37:36 <planetmaker> would make them kinda useless 21:38:22 <planetmaker> better solution is to allow (some) station parts be built under bridges :-) 21:38:47 <FLHerne> ^^ would be AWESOME! 21:39:01 * FLHerne is excited enough to be using ALLCAPS! :D 21:39:12 <hmmm> build an airport 21:39:19 <hmmm> heh... looks really bad 21:39:21 <hmmm> but k 21:39:43 <hmmm> can't treat those tiles as something different? 21:42:30 <planetmaker> George, what you try with that template earlier, it's got nothing to do with NML. It's simply using the pre-processor templating functions of gcc 21:43:00 <planetmaker> and use of those is one of two reasons I employ it 21:43:51 <hmmm> ah, the midi bug 21:44:06 <hmmm> meh... i just ended up playing no midi 21:44:51 <hmmm> I hear some reverb on the midi, which somewhat explains THX is in effect 21:45:07 <hmmm> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5539?project=1 21:46:54 <hmmm> how many sound channels does OTTD use? 21:47:46 <hmmm> I was able to trigger the issue with ottd fully zoomed out, which increases the number of simultaneous sounds being played at the same time 21:48:05 *** Ristovski [~rafael@78.157.7.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:48:20 <hmmm> even without midi playing, there were times it clogged the buffer and stopped windows from playing any more sounds 21:48:37 <hmmm> it happened with too many sounds playing at the same time 21:48:51 <hmmm> do you know what it could be? 21:51:42 <glx> hmmm: 2 channels, it's simple stereo 21:52:25 <hmmm> hmm, strange 21:52:50 <hmmm> what about that mixing up to 128 voices or what 21:52:57 <hmmm> i hear many sounds 21:53:30 <hmmm> but it can't play that many, it will end up with my system playing no sound at all 21:53:38 <hmmm> is it voice or channel? 21:54:39 <hmmm> really sucks, i have either to stop/start the sound driver or reboot the system 21:54:49 <glx> openttd merges all sounds in a buffer before sending them to the sound card 21:55:21 <hmmm> what about the after effects? 21:55:27 <hmmm> THX 21:55:40 <hmmm> adds reverb, some echo, some fade out on some sounds 21:55:41 <glx> none 21:55:47 <hmmm> will this happen after or before? 21:56:01 <hmmm> so, sound blaster is the culprit 21:56:27 <glx> music is managed "directly" by windows 21:56:53 <hmmm> there is a conflict then 21:57:08 <hmmm> i think somehow the buffer is full at times 21:57:32 <hmmm> it clogs and stops playing sound from then on 21:57:52 <hmmm> for the whole system :/ 21:58:06 <glx> maybe a driver problem 21:58:13 <hmmm> okay, THX 21:59:08 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B417.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:27 <hmmm> when it's not clogged yet, I hear some sound pauses 21:59:52 <hmmm> no sound for a brief moment, then suddenly, it "dejects" all sounds that should have been played at once 22:00:03 <glx> openttd uses simple WAV files fot sound effects, and those are mixed before being sent to windows 22:00:30 <glx> very basic stuff 22:00:32 <hmmm> so, this symtpom is buffer retaled but not openttd fault? 22:00:48 <hmmm> hmm :( how could i track the exact cause? 22:01:32 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-3-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 22:01:44 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:02:48 <hmmm> what windows says is something about DirectSound being in use by another application 22:03:02 <hmmm> can't play any testing sound 22:03:17 <glx> openttd doesn't use directsound 22:03:33 <glx> or at least not directly 22:03:42 <__ln__> no wonder it's another application using it then 22:03:54 <hmmm> so... it can only be THX 22:03:59 <hmmm> grrrr sound blaster 22:04:13 <glx> for sound we use the legacy method, ie waveOut 22:04:35 <hmmm> what about midi? 22:05:12 <Eddi|zuHause> midi is totally separate from sound 22:05:32 <hmmm> seems like THX effects picks both sound sources and mixes them into a clog 22:05:38 <hmmm> grrr 22:05:40 <hmmm> ok thank you 22:05:46 <glx> there are 2 midi drivers: directmusic and win32 22:06:08 <hmmm> it's win32 which then comes out as DirectSound apparently 22:06:39 <hmmm> no win32 audio device available 22:06:44 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:06:55 <hmmm> (because the available one is clogged" 22:07:03 <hmmm> as far as I can tell, that's what's happening 22:07:54 <hmmm> this thing has only happened with OpenTTD, which is really strange 22:08:05 <hmmm> to completely shut down any sound from being played 22:08:19 <hmmm> not even those windows specific sounds play 22:08:34 <hmmm> he whole thing went mute 22:09:04 <hmmm> I had other issues with sound, but nothing close to preventing sound on the whole system 22:09:28 <hmmm> I had flash not playing sound at times 22:09:35 <hmmm> but that was only flash 22:09:50 <hmmm> not the whole system 22:10:07 <glx> really looks like a problem on your side 22:10:14 <glx> driver or hardware 22:10:40 <hmmm> I solve the flash thing by restarting IE 22:11:05 <hmmm> usually all the other problems are fixed when restarting the application 22:11:23 <hmmm> OpenTTD is the exception 22:11:55 <hmmm> and they don't happen as often as you might think 22:12:04 <hmmm> only when there's driver updates 22:12:33 <hmmm> it's like something became misconfigured the first time it goes to play 22:13:36 <hmmm> not easy to configure the sound for first play 22:13:41 <hmmm> but it's doable 22:14:03 <hmmm> and it's fixed for as long as I don't install more drivers 22:14:17 <glx> weird system :) 22:14:21 <hmmm> sound is then the last thing I have to configure 22:14:25 <hmmm> yeah 22:15:43 <hmmm> the problem is that sound blaster itself is dealing with old software not directly supported on windows 7 22:16:02 <hmmm> the combination of whole + new driver models 22:16:19 <hmmm> works, but needs some tricks 22:17:23 <hmmm> EAX and ALchemy for example 22:17:29 <glx> especially on 64bit I guess 22:17:35 <hmmm> part of EAX is new 22:17:49 <hmmm> some other part is old, from Windows XP era 22:18:04 <hmmm> and needs ALchemy to make it work on windows 7 22:18:26 <hmmm> but on top of all these there's still THX studio 22:18:35 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.78.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:37 <hmmm> the thing which creates 'realism' 22:18:38 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:18:44 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3561.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 22:18:55 <hmmm> all three don't really cope well together 22:19:08 <glx> I have a basic realtek HD provided by the mother board, that's simpler and it just works :) 22:19:16 <hmmm> :) 22:19:22 <hmmm> mobo was cheap 22:19:27 <hmmm> when i bought it 22:19:32 <hmmm> it was 2nd hand 22:19:39 <hmmm> came with CPU 22:19:48 <hmmm> CPU came with water cooler 22:20:07 <hmmm> and as a bundle, a 620 PSU 22:20:11 <hmmm> a real good one 22:20:16 <hmmm> for â¬300 22:20:34 <glx> but often "old" hardware is meant for "old" OS 22:20:41 <hmmm> CPU FX-8150 which at that time, was expensive and was being bombarded 22:20:46 <hmmm> with negative reviews 22:21:14 <hmmm> this hardware is new 22:21:17 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.78.46] has joined #openttd 22:21:22 <hmmm> all of it 22:21:32 <hmmm> the old things in it are their software 22:21:44 <hmmm> their drivers, their programs to make old stuff work on new OS 22:21:57 <glx> yeah that's the silly part 22:22:50 <hmmm> I can really tell the difference 22:23:16 <hmmm> the sound is indeed different but it's pretty much software emulated effects 22:23:29 <hmmm> the difference is just worth it 22:23:40 <hmmm> it really feels like it's some badass soundcard installed on 22:23:51 <glx> they used to do it via hardware 22:23:55 <glx> IIRC 22:23:58 <hmmm> while in truth it's just a licensed software from creative to work on realtek 22:24:12 <hmmm> they call it CODEC 22:24:36 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.78.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:55 <hmmm> the coil noise 22:24:58 <hmmm> is mitigated 22:25:01 <hmmm> I still hear it 22:25:15 <hmmm> but not as noticeable as on a system with just realtek 22:32:09 <hmmm> TerraGenesis 22:32:19 <hmmm> who works for TerraGenesis? 22:33:32 <hmmm> what would be the ideal settings for terragenesis to create an arctic game 22:33:51 <hmmm> it nearly makes no ice, even with mountainous 22:34:13 <hmmm> the original landscape is just tooo frightening 22:34:22 <hmmm> this one is somewhat lacking 22:35:06 <hmmm> other than that, TerraGenesis is great for all other tilesets 22:35:42 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.78.46] has joined #openttd 22:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody's worked on terragenesis for years 22:39:46 <hmmm> :) 22:40:09 <hmmm> there's barely forest, but when they are 22:40:15 <hmmm> they're all coupled together 22:40:46 <glx> arctic forests are only above snow line IIRC 22:40:56 <hmmm> yes yes I know 22:41:47 <hmmm> if i put too much water level 22:41:59 <hmmm> then the land is extreme 22:42:13 <hmmm> either ice on all of it, or no ince at all 22:42:24 <hmmm> no real mid term, unless it was somewhat lucky 22:42:37 <glx> you can change snow line position 22:43:09 <hmmm> hmm :( 22:44:20 <glx> default is 7 but can be anything between 2 and 13 22:44:35 <hmmm> industry placing 22:44:43 <hmmm> is the most problematic issue 22:45:09 <hmmm> sometimes there is a balanced number of industries 22:45:17 <hmmm> food processing plants 22:45:21 <hmmm> they grow on ice 22:45:42 <hmmm> and when the generator only places ice 22:45:50 <hmmm> in specific location of the map 22:45:55 <hmmm> almost all of them will be there 22:46:10 <hmmm> like if there's a mix of water and ice 22:46:32 <hmmm> argh, maybe with a screenshot 22:46:40 <hmmm> i suck at explaining things 22:48:31 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.78.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:32 <Sacro> So if someone builds an openttd patchpack, and the diff doesn't apply cleanly, is that a GPL violation? 22:48:53 <hmmm> okay 512x512 arctic terragenesis with hilly terrain and medium water 22:49:05 <hmmm> you will notice there's much more water than hills 22:49:09 <glx> it's all "random", but you can try to change sea level and snow line height to modify the result 22:49:22 <hmmm> and when there's hills, they're generally all located close to each other 22:49:29 <hmmm> hills with ice, that is 22:50:45 <glx> there's also variety distribution which should help for that 22:51:00 <hmmm> sn't that just for trees? 22:51:11 <glx> http://wiki.openttd.org/Variety_distribution 22:53:25 <hmmm> OH!!! great! 22:53:30 <hmmm> exactly what I was looking for 22:53:36 <hmmm> ty 22:53:41 *** Celestar_ [~vici@mnch-4d04d790.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 22:54:52 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD59F7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 22:54:57 <hmmm> strange, seems to be working the opposite way the wiki says 22:55:10 <hmmm> no variety will get more ice 22:55:21 <hmmm> high variety will get nearly no ice 22:55:40 <hmmm> that ice is however close to each other, guess i need to tweak a bit 22:59:29 <hmmm> the highest the variety, the least amount of ice I see on the map 22:59:40 <hmmm> so hmm... 22:59:45 <hmmm> what am i doing wrong 23:00:40 *** Celestar [~vici@mnch-4d04f698.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:00:40 *** Biolunar__ [mahdi@blfd-4db0ef8d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My life for Aiur] 23:01:16 *** roadt__ [~roadt@223.240.97.38] has joined #openttd 23:02:35 <hmmm> you there? 23:02:49 <hmmm> well, no variety does it better 23:02:56 <hmmm> must see roughness 23:06:41 <hmmm> smoothness seems to do what I'm looking for slightly better, still depends on luck 23:07:11 <hmmm> very rought and no variety 23:07:24 <hmmm> let me test water level change 23:11:52 *** HellTiger [~HellTiger@43-54.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:12:30 <hmmm> looks like the setting I'm looking for is Smoothness after all 23:15:07 <hmmm> the best aproach for what i'm looking for is sea level medium, smoothness rough, terrain hilly, no variety 23:15:14 <hmmm> a good mix of everything 23:15:22 <hmmm> farm fields 23:15:22 <hmmm> ice 23:15:24 <hmmm> water 23:15:27 <hmmm> and normal land 23:15:43 <hmmm> ice is still a bit luck dependant 23:15:52 <hmmm> but that's the best approach 23:16:04 <hmmm> you there? 23:16:10 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:16:54 <hmmm> ^_^ 23:18:44 <hmmm> something between Smooth and Rough 23:19:26 <hmmm> a not so smooth / not so rough, :p 23:19:32 <hmmm> if that could be set 23:21:07 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-253.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 23:27:40 <hmmm> servers 23:28:40 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:30:11 *** hmmm [~oftc-webi@a85-139-79-249.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Page closed]