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00:00:01 <krinn> and what when 2 clients try to pickup a diff choice in that drop down list 00:00:01 <Zuu> A GS author can then if he/she wish omitt the submit button if the form control is more or less used as a setting rather than data that you send in a form. 00:00:43 <Zuu> If two clients tries to do different things in the same tick, then just one of them wins. 00:01:51 <glx> like for new vehicle preview 00:01:54 <Zuu> If there are more than one client on the same company, they will need to use chat to decide what to do. 00:02:06 <frosch123> hmm, but you are right about the storybook 00:02:16 <frosch123> the question window is kind of stupid in multiplayer 00:02:22 <frosch123> because it popups on all clients 00:02:34 <frosch123> in the storybook the initiative to enter something comes from the player 00:03:15 <krinn> frosch123, wouldn't change, as the GS would need to popup the storybook if it expect an answer, it should show a question is asked 00:03:38 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-24-105-140-5.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:05 <frosch123> krinn: not necessary. it can have multiple pages, and you can reopen it, and choose a page to enter something 00:04:12 <frosch123> from potential mutiple pages with entries 00:04:18 <krinn> no question asked, no answer given, and without showing it, the question is not really asked, just wrote 00:05:25 <krinn> frosch123: then your question is delay until the user open the storybook and see a question exists 00:05:48 *** DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@50.107.53.200] has joined #openttd 00:05:49 <frosch123> well, you kind of have the option to not answer a question :) 00:05:54 <frosch123> resp. choose from multiple questions 00:06:06 *** GriffinOneTwo [~oftc-webi@adsl-68-125-219-250.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #openttd 00:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause> random unrelated idea: a GS->NewGRF interface: NewGRFs get a "GS callback", the GS can call this with 32 bit parameter, the NewGRF has the GS short-ID in extra_callback_info1 and the 32bit data in extra_callback_info2 00:07:08 <frosch123> and who shall use that? 00:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea 00:07:18 <frosch123> :p 00:07:34 <krinn> a GS that want change param of a newGRF 00:07:36 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Does that callback return a value back to GS? 00:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: either 15bit callback result or "callback failed" 00:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: or possibly 32bit via a 0x100+ register 00:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if the latter was ever implemented 00:09:18 <Zuu> Recently a specialised GS for FIRS was released. It could perhaps use that to implement some wishes from andy (as long as he cooperate) 00:09:19 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i think you are better off defining a fixed interface, rather than a generic binary data exchange 00:10:08 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 00:10:54 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine something like the "offer each company a different set of engines" idea 00:11:01 <krinn> per exemple i see FIRS output 3t per 8t manufacturing supplies delivered, and a GS would be able to alter that ratio 00:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the GS could first query the newgrf how many sets it would provide, then ask the company the question who wants which set 00:11:54 <frosch123> krinn: globally or per industry? 00:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and then use this callback to decide which engine would be in which set 00:12:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (call the callback with each engine id) 00:12:23 <krinn> frosch123, i don't know, per industry will allow finer control 00:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i don't think you can alter parameters at that stage anymore, only "storage" (which is more limited in scope) 00:13:31 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, neither newgrf nor gs can restrict engiens per company 00:13:46 *** dada_ [~chocobone@92.109.206.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but it could be implemented for GS 00:13:57 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think it would be fairly easy to do 00:14:02 <Zuu> There is a FS task about that with a proposal that was discussed some time ago. 00:14:19 <Zuu> I think I even got some code started for it. 00:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: game has already a bitmask for each company, but only sets the values "nobody", "only one" or "all" 00:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: a GS taking control over prototypes and availability would just need to set this bitmask 00:15:50 <krinn> i suppose newGRF can see what company query it no ? (to gave a color if company1 is building a vehicle or color2 for company2...) 00:16:12 <frosch123> colors? 00:16:17 <frosch123> there are company colors 00:16:27 <frosch123> what's the relation? :p 00:16:42 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: no, recolouring is handled by the game, the newgrf just returns a list of different colours 00:16:55 <Zuu> FS task: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5697 (it discuss mainly callback vs API) 00:17:09 <krinn> i was wondering if newGRF can knows what company is doing action on it 00:18:08 <krinn> and if yes, it can then allow/disallow a vehicle and then a GS can send him a 15bit with 0/1 to enable that vehicle per company : you endup with the GS allowing certain vehicle or not for a company 00:18:14 <frosch123> krinn: most of newgrf is stateless 00:18:20 <frosch123> they do not "save" stuff 00:18:44 <krinn> well once disallow, the newGRF state remain off, until GS resend a ON state 00:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the advantage of pure binary exchange is that a programmer controlling both GS and GRF developments can just use it without conflicting with anyone else's ideas 00:19:15 <frosch123> that would be a pure gs<->ottd interface, without newgrf involvement 00:19:41 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, except there is not even a way to download a gs with a specific md5sum 00:19:55 <frosch123> not for any of the involved elements to check versions or presence of the other 00:20:31 <frosch123> anyway, you could define a mapping between parameters and string identifies via a14 00:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so the callback must be called in a DoCommand, so it's synchronized on all clients 00:20:37 <Zuu> with musa it is possible to make the GS depend on the NewGRF or the other way around. Cyclic dependencies are however not supported by musa. 00:20:49 <frosch123> so the gs chould pass a regular squirrel table variable 00:21:16 <frosch123> and ottd can convert it to a callback, checking the validitiy of the table members, and also the callback result could be converted to a squirrel table 00:21:38 <frosch123> Zuu: try to load a savegame where you do not have the right script version installed 00:21:49 <frosch123> there is no "download missing scripts" option 00:21:51 *** retro|cz [~retro@ip-78-45-93-251.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 00:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what's the use of a table if you can only exchange 32/15bit? 00:22:17 <Zuu> frosch123: I guess, as script author I never have run into that problem. 00:22:18 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you have a string keyword for the variable, which defiens the format 00:22:35 <frosch123> a newgrf can easiyl return 16 32 bit values 00:23:17 <frosch123> you could also pass more than 2 32bit values depending on the context 00:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess i'm missing some bits of context there 00:23:44 <frosch123> Zuu: really? you cannot exactly load a savegame from the forums which contains ais 00:24:02 <frosch123> if you do not already have a matching ai, it won't succeed continueing the game 00:24:10 <frosch123> i run into that with every fs savegame 00:24:12 <krinn> frosch123, result in loading latest version of the script 00:24:39 <frosch123> krinn: or a random other ai 00:24:45 <krinn> one that might not be compatible with the newgrf if the GS don't care 00:24:48 <Zuu> frosch123: For AIs IIRC TrueBrain made it so that it picks a random AI. But maybe that has been removed due to being impopular among AI authors. 00:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's quite an oversight? 00:25:11 <frosch123> Zuu: well, for ai it does not matter much. but a gs savegame is simply broken 00:25:45 <krinn> it load random GS if it can't find the one in the save ? 00:25:57 <frosch123> you cannot share scenarios on the forums which use gs 00:26:02 <Zuu> Loading random GS doesn't make much sense 00:26:05 <frosch123> beause there is no easy way to get the right gs 00:26:28 <Zuu> And if you share them on bananas, you need to learn musa. 00:26:41 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i had assumed it would work like with NewGRFs, i.e. "get ID/md5 from bananas before load" 00:26:51 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that part is missing 00:27:03 <Eddi|zuHause> implement it! 00:27:27 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:25 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, noone fixes the basics :) 00:28:46 <krinn> the MD5 is not something i would like, even i see the ID usage 00:29:16 <krinn> use the ID from the AI so any AI with that ID is loaded, so openttd can match an AI with that ID but still load the latest version found 00:29:56 <krinn> i dunno the GetShortName to find the AI ID 00:30:05 <frosch123> the savegame contains the script name (not the 4 byte id funnily enough) and the version (not the md5sum) 00:30:16 <frosch123> both are things that bananas does not know about 00:31:13 <krinn> the savegame could contain the shortname and no version, GS/AI get the savename version it use by the save, upto them to allow compatiblity 00:31:28 <krinn> it won't crash openttd, the AI/GS will crash maybe 00:32:25 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: anyway, you need to get deep down into either ottd savegames, or bananas to fix that 00:32:28 <frosch123> it 00:32:53 <frosch123> there are like 3 ways to identify scripts :p 00:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but we have no clue whether the progammer was competent enough to get the GS/AI compatible to loading savegames made with older versions 00:32:59 <frosch123> and everyone uses some other method 00:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> we also have no useful way to update a NewGRF with a "compatible" one 00:33:45 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yes but unlike newGRF openttd won't crash, only the GS/AI : and if the script dev don't want his script trash by user because any newer version cannot load previous one, he will do the job 00:33:48 <frosch123> it's like fs#5662, only worse :p 00:34:15 <frosch123> krinn: a gs crash ruins a savegame just as well 00:34:28 <krinn> yes, but not because of openttd 00:34:35 <krinn> blame is on the script maker 00:34:38 <frosch123> does not matter for the player 00:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you either have developer tools deactivated, then only exact match works, or you have developer tools activated, then you can only change by removing and adding new, but this circumvents the compatibility check alltogether 00:35:12 <frosch123> oh, indeed. without dev tools you cannot load a savegame if you do not have matching grfs 00:35:13 <krinn> frosch123, he does as he knows who has done the shitty thing 00:35:15 <frosch123> for gs noone checks that 00:35:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so the "compatible version" bit of action14 is essentially useless 00:35:31 <frosch123> you can load a savegame wihtout having the gs just fine 00:35:35 <frosch123> it will just not work 00:36:00 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: why? 00:36:31 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the only place it's checked is when you have developer tools active and deleted the old version 00:36:41 <frosch123> no? 00:37:08 <frosch123> it's for singleplayer with dev disabled, and loading a savegame with "compatible" newgrf 00:37:13 <Zuu> frosch123: If I load a game when the GS is unavailable, the game loads fine. The only way that I see that it did not find the GS is by opening the GS debug window. 00:37:23 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: if you manually update through the newgrf configuration window, it's never displayed whether it's compatible or not 00:37:35 <frosch123> Zuu: all the goals and storybook stuff remains 00:37:37 <Zuu> (which I have a hotkey for - but most users does probably not even know that it exist) 00:37:47 <frosch123> all town texts and growth stuff remains 00:37:51 <Zuu> yep 00:38:00 <frosch123> so the savegame is essentially broken 00:38:16 <Zuu> Broken but without even a notice 00:38:31 <frosch123> yeah :p 00:38:35 <krinn> but user can download any version of the script and the savegame became ok (if the script loading part is compatible) 00:38:36 <frosch123> newgrf at least crash :p 00:39:02 <frosch123> krinn: i am not even sure whether the gs name is displayed anywhere 00:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the only way i have ever managed to make a newgrf crash is when modifying the file while it's loaded 00:39:38 <Zuu> krinn: Only if the user does not save the game loaded (where no GS is found) 00:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd open => recompile newgrf => forget to hit "reload_newgrfs" => unpause game => BANG! 00:40:20 <Zuu> Eg. if the user load it, continue, save and then later realize that it misses the GS then he/she is lost unless he/she has the original save backed up. 00:40:24 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: unlink the file before modifying :p 00:40:36 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i have a symlink 00:40:51 <krinn> Zuu: this won't happen if openttd kept the GS/AI shortname in the savegame 00:41:19 <Eddi|zuHause> from newgrf/test/cets.grf to development/cets/cets.grf 00:41:20 <krinn> Zuu: even if it is missing, previous savegame need "AAAH" when saving save script is "AAAH"... 00:41:29 <Zuu> krinn: I'm sure there is ways to improve this. Just telling how it works right now. 00:41:58 <Zuu> Perheps better store its uniqueid rather than just the short name. 00:42:02 <krinn> well someone has gave me a nice hint to help debug my GS: save/load and new functions/change are there 00:42:15 <krinn> with MD5, this won't work 00:42:17 <frosch123> krinn: the problem is that there are like 3 names for a script. the name, the shortname and the interface name or so 00:42:37 <frosch123> originally the short name was meant for identifying a script, and afaik that is also written in the documentation 00:42:45 <frosch123> but funnily it is nowhere used in ottd afaik 00:42:53 <frosch123> for some reason ottd uses the normal name everywhere 00:43:05 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: no, this then needs a new development function to update GS/AI mid-game 00:43:12 <Zuu> Except for libraries where it use the GetInstanceName :-) 00:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but "normal users" will never have that situation 00:43:23 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, until i get the reload function :P 00:43:23 <frosch123> someone tm needs to clean that up, before "get scripts from bananas" will be anywhere near possible 00:44:15 <Zuu> At least the shortname is enforced to be unique on bananas. But yes OpenTTD would need to store that. 00:44:43 <krinn> and shortname usage can be enforce by GSInfo API: missing no init 00:45:06 <krinn> i'm not sure it's not already the case 00:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and then you need to figure out how to add that to the NewGRF/missing content GUI 00:46:29 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, when you click load game: it says companies name, it could output script name instead of companies names 00:47:00 <Zuu> I wouldn't remove company names, but rather add info about script there 00:47:13 <krinn> 1: thatcompany (missing DCTR) 00:47:50 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: i mean there is a button there "show newgrfs", and in the same or a similar place it should display ALL needed content 00:48:44 <krinn> when loading i have find missing content online, and newGRF settings 00:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 00:49:05 <krinn> the 1st indeed show what to get to fill the gap, the other just show the one i own 00:49:17 <krinn> script can be shown in the missing content online as well no ? 00:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly 00:52:23 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:28 <krinn> unlike newGRF, script have info about their own save version in the savegame, allowing them to handle older savegame, hence why newer script version isn't has problematic has a newGRF that (i suppose) is blind vs a savegame 00:52:48 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 00:52:52 <frosch123> krinn: actually no 00:52:57 <frosch123> newgrf have that information 00:53:27 <frosch123> newgrf improved a lot, because incompatibility was always so severe 00:53:33 <frosch123> scripts are lacking behind 00:54:13 <frosch123> they are not popular enough 00:54:22 <frosch123> or something 00:54:27 <krinn> well, never saw openttd crash because a script doesn't load an old savegame 00:54:56 <frosch123> exactly. but that is why newgrf improved 00:54:59 <Zuu> The game will not crash, but the save game is broken if the GS cannot be found. 00:55:03 <frosch123> and nowadays newgrf are better than scripts 00:55:37 <krinn> Zuu just because openttd forget it when saving again, something it could rerecord even without the script presence to help next loading 00:55:57 <frosch123> in 2009 scripts were better than newgrf, but since then nothing much happened about script save/load 00:56:31 <krinn> well, i don't see what scripts need for loading? they have all they need 00:56:56 <frosch123> krinn: just that you cannot get the right script for your save 00:57:02 <frosch123> unless you already have it 00:57:20 <Zuu> or unless the last one on bananas is compatible 00:57:26 <frosch123> and if you load it with a wrong script, you do not notice, and your game is jsut ruined 00:57:27 <Zuu> and you know which GS to download 00:58:01 <frosch123> krinn: or take sillicon valley. i fixed some spelling erros in the description somewhen 00:58:11 <frosch123> during that the library dependency was lost 00:58:29 <Zuu> Ah, yes you should never edit a bananas entry 00:58:30 <frosch123> it was not possible to readd the same library version, and the new version was incompatible or so 00:58:47 <frosch123> so, i actually had to upload a new version, just with an dupdated version requirement for the library 00:59:06 <krinn> well, don't blame script for bananas trouble 00:59:26 <frosch123> sorry, but i only consider the big picture 01:00:16 <Zuu> In the GS you can define the min version to load. When uploading you do need to care about if any of your dependencies has uploaded a new version and update your import statement. If you want to stay with old library versions, now musa can do this. 01:00:28 <Zuu> But yes, there are many pitfalls :-) 01:01:20 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.43.132.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:36 <frosch123> night :) 01:04:40 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f689c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 01:04:44 <Zuu> yeah it's getting late 01:04:46 <Zuu> light 01:04:49 <Zuu> night* 01:05:11 <krinn> yeah, and tbh that pitfall can be avoid just by removing the edit button on bananas 01:07:42 *** Hazzard [~oftc-webi@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 01:09:44 *** Hazzard [~oftc-webi@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:13:51 *** Zuu [~Zuu@gateway.sdr.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:18:22 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@8JQAACQGI.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 01:28:05 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BCAF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:50:01 *** retro|cz [~retro@ip-78-45-93-251.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:23:06 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:32:22 *** Haube [~michi@77-20-40-44-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:25 *** roboboy [~robotboy@0001164c.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 02:52:43 *** Pereba_ [~UserNick@186.212.126.161] has joined #openttd 02:58:44 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.21.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:58:45 *** Pereba_ is now known as Pereba 02:59:14 *** LordAro [~LordAro@sns61-83.york.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:42 *** Pereba_ [~UserNick@177.17.81.101] has joined #openttd 03:06:16 *** DarkAce-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.53.200] has joined #openttd 03:10:38 *** Pereba [~UserNick@186.212.126.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:10:43 *** Pereba_ is now known as Pereba 03:11:28 *** DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@50.107.53.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:12:52 *** arand__ [~arand@nl116-226-21.student.uu.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:26:07 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6C99E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:27:41 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-50dd93-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC67D2A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 05:56:15 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC6675B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 06:05:43 *** LuHa1 [~harny@180.65.74.132] has joined #openttd 06:06:16 *** LuHa1 is now known as LuHa 07:15:08 *** Jomann [~abchirk@g225187050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 07:16:52 <LuHa> Hello, who can give me talk-right at #openttd.dev ? 07:17:10 <Supercheese> Probably people who are not awake right now, but we'll see 07:22:16 *** abchirk_ [~abchirk@g229173157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:36:34 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A2DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 07:37:52 *** LuHa is now known as Guest5927 07:38:22 *** GriffinOneTwo [~oftc-webi@adsl-68-125-219-250.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:38:28 *** LuHa [~androirc@175.246.193.137] has joined #openttd 07:39:56 *** LuHa [~androirc@175.246.193.137] has quit [] 07:40:07 *** Guest5927 [~harny@180.65.74.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:40:38 *** LuHa [~harny@180.65.74.132] has joined #openttd 07:40:43 *** GrifffinOneTwo [~oftc-webi@adsl-68-125-219-250.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #openttd 07:53:51 *** Dark-Ace-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.53.200] has joined #openttd 07:56:16 *** LeandroL_ [~leandro@190.189.0.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:57:21 *** Dark-Ace-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.53.200] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:58:19 *** Dark-Ace-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.53.200] has joined #openttd 07:58:43 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@85.186.160.35] has joined #openttd 07:59:11 *** DarkAce-Z [~BillyMays@50.107.53.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:10:59 <LuHa> omg, sorry. 08:11:08 <LuHa> i lost voice right in .dev :( 08:11:10 <LuHa> sorry 08:12:20 <LuHa> can i pemerat voice right? i resister, identify by nickserv 08:12:20 <Supercheese> Yeah, apparently if you don't register AND identify with Nickserv, the permission is only temporary 08:12:23 <Supercheese> it's very annoying 08:15:08 <LuHa> yeah.. i register and identify nickserv but my permission is temp.. 08:47:48 <Supercheese> there we go again, guess I have to request voice at .dev, this time I'm registered and identified, we'll see if it'll stick around 08:48:11 <planetmaker> done 08:48:34 <planetmaker> you should now also be auto-voiced if you enter the channel (same with luha) 08:48:38 <Supercheese> here's hoping 08:57:35 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:57:38 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 09:06:44 <planetmaker> moin Alberth 09:07:04 <Alberth> hi hi 09:12:31 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:13:02 <Supercheese> good night 09:13:10 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@98.145.153.186] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131025151332]] 09:23:26 <Alberth> is there a description of what AI and GS can do with respect to (translatable) strings ? 09:24:14 <planetmaker> I don't know a good one 09:25:19 <Alberth> zuu should know :p 09:29:17 <Alberth> this monthly delivery check of towns is highly annoying 09:30:20 <Alberth> just one day too late, and it doesn't grow :( 09:30:22 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 09:30:55 <planetmaker> yeah 09:37:42 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host168-170-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 09:38:06 <Wolf01> hello 09:38:52 <Alberth> moin 09:39:29 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:48:48 *** retro|cz [~retro@ip-78-45-93-251.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 09:52:01 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 10:02:55 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91-65-113-111-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 10:13:37 *** Zuu [~Zuu@gateway.sdr.org] has joined #openttd 10:13:57 <Zuu> Alberth: AIs cannot use translatable strings 10:14:07 <Zuu> GSes can, but have a subset of all translation features. 10:14:23 <Zuu> I don't know of any wiki article or so that document what this subset is. 10:14:23 <Alberth> moin :) 10:14:54 <Zuu> I tend to look in the source code for the list of {PARAM}:s and try it out if it works in GS. :-) 10:15:03 <Zuu> Oh and hello :-) 10:15:40 <Alberth> ok, thanks 10:16:13 <Zuu> I have heard that geneders and/or plurals may not work in GS, but I don't really know as I'm not too used with those concepts in the translation system. 10:18:03 <Alberth> untranslated AIs make sense, as players don't talk to each other normally 10:18:16 <Alberth> the only thing to translate is the readme 10:19:40 <Alberth> I haven't yet looked into the problems that may arise in adding support 10:23:20 <Zuu> I didn't consider the readme when I saw your question. 10:23:41 <Zuu> What may be useful is to allow settings to be translatable. (both for AIs and GS) 10:26:02 <Zuu> That requires that the language files are loaded in the game menu. If the same way to refer to translations is used as in the game, then the GS need to be able to refer to them in the code that is executed when OpenTTD scanns for GS/AI. Thus giving an overead when scanning for AI/GS unless the GetSettings method is delayed and import of translations is also delayed. 10:28:28 <Alberth> ah right, settings are also interesting to translate, I agree 10:35:16 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@gateway.sdr.org] has joined #openttd 10:38:00 *** LordAro [~LordAro@sns61-83.york.ac.uk] has joined #openttd 10:41:12 *** Zuu [~Zuu@gateway.sdr.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:44:28 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-23-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 10:44:51 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 10:44:54 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 10:46:48 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@000128e4.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:47:46 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@000128e4.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 10:51:09 *** zydeco [~zydeco@169.67.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 10:57:32 *** LuHa [~harny@180.65.74.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:13:28 *** robotboy [~robotboy@0001164c.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 11:14:00 <krinn> Zuu> I have heard that geneders and/or plurals may not work in GS: didn't test gender, but plurals works 11:16:47 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-25-95.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:19:51 *** roboboy [~robotboy@0001164c.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:22:08 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:24:48 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26020 /branches/1.3 (7 files in 6 dirs) (2013-11-17 11:24:39 UTC) 11:24:49 <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Backport from trunk: 11:24:50 <DorpsGek> - Fix: [Windows] Conditional expression with enumeral with non-enumeral type (r26009) 11:24:51 <DorpsGek> - Fix: Game script showing vehicle on e.g. a goal, then the vehicle being removed and eventually being replaced by a non-user vehicle (most likely smoke) causing an assertion to trigger [FS#5804] (r26007, r26006) 11:24:53 <DorpsGek> - Fix: Crash when transferring savegame from server to client [FS#5478] (r26005) 11:29:54 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r26021 /branches/1.3 (9 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-17 11:29:44 UTC) 11:29:55 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: [1.3] -Backport from trunk: 11:29:56 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Crash when the ICU layouter thinks a font is corrupted [FS#5711] (r26018, r26017, r26016, r26015) 11:29:57 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: Having trains miss a platform that is just being modified is less of a problem than having trains stop twice without moving [FS#5684] (r26013) 11:29:59 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: - Fix: --help text of ./configure for packages that require pkg-config (r26011) 11:30:00 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: (...) 11:30:12 <peter1138> Why does it start telling TrueBrain? :p 11:30:43 <Rubidium> I think it always does when a certain number of lines is reached 11:35:58 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 11:40:01 *** zydeco [~zydeco@169.67.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:42:47 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-50dd93-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:43:49 <LordAro> well, can't let him miss out on the improtant backports ;) 11:45:29 <Terkhen> hello 11:46:21 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47:52 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 11:51:04 *** arand__ [~arand@nl116-226-21.student.uu.se] has joined #openttd 11:51:38 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26022 /branches/1.3/src/video/cocoa (cocoa_v.mm event.mm) (2013-11-17 11:51:33 UTC) 11:51:39 <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Fix: missing OS X headers 11:56:07 *** zydeco [~zydeco@236.69.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 11:58:51 *** retro|cz [~retro@ip-78-45-93-251.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:01:02 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@vadtec.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:04:38 *** Vadtec [~Vadtec@vadtec.net] has joined #openttd 12:05:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r26023 trunk/src/video/cocoa/cocoa_v.mm (2013-11-17 12:05:40 UTC) 12:05:47 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5805] (r25686): [OSX] Checking for a valid NSTextInputContext is supposed to fail on 10.4 according to docs, but somehow didn't, leading to a crash when an edit box lost focus. 12:08:09 *** dada_ [~chocobone@92.109.206.41] has joined #openttd 12:17:07 *** DJGummikuh [~djgummiku@srv02.letsplayonline.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:22:58 *** dada__ [~chocobone@92.109.206.41] has joined #openttd 12:22:58 *** dada_ [~chocobone@92.109.206.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:45 *** zydeco [~zydeco@236.69.18.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Miscellaneous hardware exception error] 12:44:57 *** Elukka [~Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 12:45:13 <planetmaker> krinn, well... if there's an excuse to bake a cake and a little time, I'm usually in ;-) 12:45:37 <planetmaker> speaking of it... need to deliver a cake right now :-) See you tonight 12:45:45 <krinn> lol 12:46:29 *** Ammler [~ammler@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: gone...] 12:46:46 *** Ammler [~ammler@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 12:47:49 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 12:51:34 *** LuHa [~harny@121.183.241.48] has joined #openttd 12:53:04 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but... you don't know my address, so how can you deliver it? 12:58:17 <__ln__> "rubidium, netherlands", that should do it 12:59:47 <krinn> he's good at making cake? 13:02:54 <krinn> ok, i think i have my answer :) 13:03:02 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcf68.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:08:21 <frosch123> Alberth: ais have nothing translatable at all 13:08:27 <frosch123> gs settings are not translatable 13:08:42 <frosch123> gs stuff in game is translatable using similar languag efiles as ottd 13:08:45 <frosch123> plural is supported 13:08:51 <frosch123> genders and cases are not supported 13:09:25 <frosch123> gs lang files are compiled using strgen 13:10:17 <krinn> {SKIP} doesn't work but {STRING} works 13:10:54 <krinn> {CURRENCY} doesn't work but {CURRENCY_SHORT} works 13:11:47 <frosch123> i believe the string commands are actually exactly the same as for ottd lang files 13:11:59 <frosch123> krinn: where are you looking? 13:12:08 <frosch123> SKIP is deprecated and removed for long 13:12:16 <frosch123> currency also does not exist for ages 13:12:26 <krinn> in my own GS and that doc as ref : http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Special_strings 13:12:53 <frosch123> http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/2260f1ed74bf/src/table/strgen_tables.h#l39 <- those are the string codes 13:13:05 <frosch123> with the restriction of gender/cases not working for gs 13:13:16 <frosch123> all the wiki stuff is unmaintained 13:13:23 <krinn> ah 13:13:23 <Rubidium> krinn: I don't even know that page 13:13:35 <krinn> :P i dig where i can 13:13:40 <Rubidium> when was CURRENCY64 been removed? 13:14:11 <Alberth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/6571 created an issue for it 13:14:21 <krinn> i avoid using any 64 as i can't know if openttd run 32 or 64 from squirrel, must assume always 32 13:15:48 *** eQualizer [~lauri@46-163-226-192.blcnet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:16:07 <Rubidium> CURRENCY64 has been gone since 2007 13:16:19 <Rubidium> so that page is AT LEAST 6 years out-of-date 13:16:43 <krinn> last edit is 26 dec 2012 13:17:40 <Alberth> you don't really think every edit updates the entire page, do you? 13:18:08 <krinn> of course not, but tbh, i didn't check edit page until 2s 13:18:56 <krinn> there's no other doc, assuming this one is update then 13:23:05 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6C99E.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 13:24:01 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:24:38 *** retro|cz [~retro@ip-78-45-93-251.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 13:25:26 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 13:25:54 *** adf88 [~Thunderbi@wis-zul.spine.pl] has joined #openttd 13:27:07 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:24 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 13:35:54 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26024 /branches/1.3 (33 files in 8 dirs) (2013-11-17 13:35:48 UTC) 13:35:55 <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Backport: number of prerequisites for key handling fixes/improvements 13:53:39 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26025 /branches/1.3/src (11 files in 2 dirs) (2013-11-17 13:53:33 UTC) 13:53:40 <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Fix: get hotkeys working again 13:55:09 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:55:51 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:58:47 <frosch123> http://cdn3.spiegel.de/images/image-568716-panoV9free-brpm.jpg <- usually the "funny pictures" on spiegel are terrible, but this one is great :) 13:59:22 <frosch123> (sorry, german) 14:02:23 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 14:03:28 *** eQualizer [~lauri@46-163-226-192.blcnet.fi] has joined #openttd 14:05:41 <LordAro> @topic get 5 14:05:41 <DorpsGek> LordAro: English only 14:05:42 <LordAro> :p 14:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the forum just died... 14:22:26 <LordAro> again? 14:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> well, first it was fast, then it was slow, and then i hit a timeout on submit 14:24:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and then frosch123 was faster than me 14:29:59 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 14:33:31 *** adf89 [~Thunderbi@wis-zul.spine.pl] has joined #openttd 14:36:19 *** adf88 [~Thunderbi@wis-zul.spine.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:38:37 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 14:38:47 <peter1138> Is there ever anything interesting on there anyway? 14:48:18 <LordAro> occasionally 14:55:11 *** robotboy [~robotboy@0001164c.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:09:38 *** LeandroL [~leandro@190.189.0.224] has joined #openttd 15:20:12 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 15:27:09 <LordAro> planetmaker: you got a reply: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5799 15:36:10 <krinn> i hope someone will look at 5656, it's a badass for AI 15:48:15 *** RainbowNines [~oftc-webi@host86-176-16-12.range86-176.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 15:48:27 <RainbowNines> Afternoon chaps. Anyone knocking about? 15:54:45 <Zuu_> Based on the discussion last night about script names, I made a wiki article that documents some of the problems and proposes some solutions: https://wiki.openttd.org/Script_Name 15:56:11 <krinn> hi RainbowNines 15:56:18 <krinn> Zuu_, going look at it 15:56:57 *** Zuu_ is now known as Zuu 15:56:58 <RainbowNines> hi krinn. 15:57:39 <frosch123> Zuu: yeah, i guess the first step would be to just save shortname and md5sum as well 15:57:55 <frosch123> (no need to remove saving the name) 15:58:07 <frosch123> that should give us more options for fixing stuff 15:59:03 <Zuu> In short time, with also having md5sum we can get something up quickly that get exactly that version from bananas. With more work (verifying equal version in bananas + script), more advanced things can be acomplished 15:59:25 <Kjetil> time to go bananas 16:00:40 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 16:01:49 <krinn> i still think md5 script will have the effect that openttd will load dictatorai 1.0 instead of latest from bananas: of course it will make sure that dictatorai can load this savegame, but it will force the user to only use that version. 16:01:56 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26026 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2013-11-17 16:01:50 UTC) 16:01:57 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r25648) [FS#5775-ish]: Invalidate vehicle colour palette again when rearranging consist, reversing, ... 16:02:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26027 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-11-17 16:02:39 UTC) 16:02:46 <DorpsGek> -Change [FS#5669-ish]: [NewGRF] Invalidate vehicle colour palette when leaving a station. 16:02:53 <krinn> and any new script version would be only used with a new game : if dctr v1 have a bug, because of the md5 mark: people even updating dctr to latest version with the fix won't have choice and play with the buggy version 16:03:25 <Zuu> krinn: with md5sum we get a key into bananas data base. It is possible to also fetch the last version of the same content. However, it is only when the content is downloaded that OpenTTD can determine if the last version is compatible. 16:03:27 <LordAro> lots of commits in the last couple of days :) 16:03:46 <Zuu> Unless bananas is going to inspect the version compatibility value. 16:04:25 <krinn> well, i speak about tagging md5 for script within savegame 16:05:02 <Zuu> I don't speak about removing using the last compatible version. 16:05:51 <krinn> and if openttd load "script that" or better "script unique shortname" from a save : it must reput it on saving, even the script wasn't found 16:06:29 <Zuu> OpenTTD would use short name (like it today use name), version and compatible version to try to find the best compatible version locally. The md5sum is only used if that fails and it needs to go to the fruit store to find the script. 16:06:34 <krinn> this will remove the "i load a scenerio" with "AATC" but don't have the script, and now that i have save it, openttd doesn't load "AATC" gamescript with it even i have provide it 16:11:11 <Zuu> I've mentioned this problem now in the problems section on the wiki. 16:11:29 <krinn> zuu: about lib i don't think you need to tag savegame with them: if user use "TTCC" GS that import superlib, but newer "TTCC" no more use it, openttd will try download superlib for nothing as newer "TTCC" no more use it 16:12:05 <Zuu> I don't know really if it is good to solve it as you propose, or if it is better to just make it clear to the usre that the script couldn't be loaded and that they should obtain the script and re-load the game (without saving). 16:12:05 <krinn> and i think if old "TTCC" don't need superlib, but newer "TTCC" this time add it as dep, openttd if i remember well, already offer to download superlib 16:13:53 <Zuu> If script authors manage deps correctly, there is no need to have a library identifier available (either from Import() or saved in game) that can be used as a key into the bananas database. 16:14:41 <Zuu> As I wrote in the wiki, I'm not sure that part is needed. But I brought it up as there may still be (weak) arguments to do something about it for consistency 16:15:15 <Zuu> Also, we have seen many cases where users can't use script XYZ becauses missing libraries. 16:16:17 <Vadtec> for trains, is it better to have big trains that wait at the stations to fill up and make massive delievries, or smaller trains that grab what they can to make small deliveries? 16:16:47 <krinn> and if openttd target all their shortname : DCTR need SPLB - SPLB need SCP_ : try download DCTR and openttd will add SPLB and SCP_ too 16:17:01 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26028 trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi (2013-11-17 16:16:55 UTC) 16:17:02 <Zuu> krinn> this will remove the "i load a scenerio" with "AATC" but don't have the script, and now that i have save it, openttd doesn't load "AATC" gamescript with it even i have provide it <--- As script author, would you like to debug problems related to changed game state over perhaps many years where the game has been running without your script active? 16:17:02 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5773]: make the installer warning about Windows XP SP3 not trigger on the 64 bit Windows XP which isn't really Windows XP to start with 16:17:07 <frosch123> Vadtec: more engines have more running cost. longer trains have longer loading times which adds to the delivery time, and thus gives less income 16:18:46 <Vadtec> frosch123: i was referring to cargo capacity rather than the number of engines, its just i have one train that doesnt seem to be making a profit either way, even though its route should be long enough to allow for full loads and a decent payout 16:18:50 <Vadtec> its rather baffling 16:19:12 <krinn> Zuu: that's the same if user cheat with date, and i keep doing that as debug, might cause problem for script handling time elapse by date range 16:22:33 <krinn> Zuu: to be safer it'll be better to stop openttd loading a game with missing script yeah and directly try to manage missing dep/script 16:23:04 <krinn> Zuu: you're right 16:27:36 <Eddi|zuHause> breaking bad spoiler: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kZivVxB3vU 16:29:01 <krinn> Zuu: how about Info::MinVersionToLoad : dctr 1.3=MinVersionToLoad==2 and dctr 1.4=MinVersionToLoad==2 mean for openttd it can use 1.4 as the save was done with a dctr version that use version 2 16:31:46 <Zuu> Could you re-word that with a bit more explicit examples. I have a hard time trying to see what you mean with eg. "dctr 1.3=MinVersionToLoad==2" 16:34:04 <krinn> take a user using dctrv1 using save/load version 2, user save the game. Now if user lack dctr bananas can look the latest dctr version that have MinVersionToLoad = 2 and so use that version. Bananas has found the script latest version that can load version 2 of its save format 16:35:10 <krinn> and if dctrv2 have version = 2 compatible, if dctrv3 have version = 3 set, incompatible... 16:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: problem with that is bananas knows neither the version nor the min compatible version 16:35:57 <krinn> well, bananas already read the info.nut to grab shortname version no? 16:36:01 <Alberth> Vadtec: shorter trains tend to arrive more often at the station, which is a plus. They also deliver the cargo faster. It does mean more trains, which adds costs. 16:36:07 <Zuu> It is a final solution to aim at, but needs some work on bananas. Bananas do not yet inspect that property of info.nut. Also note that inspections use just text parsing. Not actual execution of code. So that means that the min compatible version must be hard coded in info.nut and not stored in a global variable. 16:36:53 <Vadtec> Alberth: indeed, ultimately i simply removed that train and made another one stop at the troublesome station 16:36:54 <Zuu> krinn: Bananas read info.nut to grab shortname, which is why short name cannot be stored in a global variable if you upload it to bananas. The short name is then stored in the database. 16:36:58 <Vadtec> seems to have fixed the issue 16:37:19 <Zuu> Eg. info.nut is only read when you upload a file, but not later. 16:37:32 <krinn> Zuu, so it could also grab the MinVersionToLoad setting no? 16:37:42 <Alberth> Vadtec: but some industries just don't 'co-operate' very well, due to random variations, and extractive primary industries can only go down in production 16:37:55 <Zuu> So if you want to start using more stuff from it, you need to make a soluton that iterates over all existing content and grab that into the database. 16:38:31 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:49 <Zuu> And you can grab MinVersionToLoad as long as all scripts just return a number (eg. not use a (global) variable with the value. Which may or may not be true. 16:39:02 <Vadtec> ummmm, every one of my plains literally just changed to "stopped" 16:39:14 <Vadtec> at least the ones that were at an airport 16:39:25 <Vadtec> how the hell did that happen? 16:39:26 <Zuu> But it needs someone interested in doing this work on bananas. 16:39:55 <Vadtec> bleh 16:39:58 <Vadtec> errant mouse click 16:40:05 <krinn> what bananas use? 16:40:10 <Zuu> django 16:40:19 <Zuu> (python) 16:40:51 <Zuu> http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/extra/website.hg/file/9d83cbacbbb8/bananas/ 16:41:20 <krinn> ok thank you, having a look at it 16:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: consider this case: person X updates his script on bananas, but forgot to update the min compatible version. then he fixes this by uploading the next version with higher min compatible version. now since bananas cannot delete old versions, people will now and forever get a broken version for their older savegames 16:46:47 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, right, but it's the author fault, and it is HIS script that will bug 16:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, it's the author's "fault". but the problem is not that it's his fault, but that he cannot fix it. 16:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> you avoid this problem if you always download the _exact_ version, not a supposedly "compatible" version 16:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> 99% of users never need the "compatible" version anyway 16:48:25 <Zuu> He can edit the faulty version and disable it by setting max compatible OpenTTD version to something really row. 16:48:49 <Zuu> Which is a valid usage of the edit button (which can cause trouble in other cases) 16:48:52 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, if we consider your example, user will always download exact version 1 with bugs 16:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: no, that won't help for automatic dependency download 16:49:50 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: I assumed that the user was not yet using the faulty version in his save, but the version before that. 16:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: and i mean the user opens a savegame where he doesn't have the script at all 16:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise the problem of getting stuff from bananas doesn't arise in the first place 16:51:46 <Zuu> assuming that save is not using the faulty version, but a version earlier than that, a initial improvement over today would be able to grab etiher exactly that version or the last version (which may or may not be compatible) 16:51:46 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, in your suggest, user opening a game made with a buggy script version and bananas will download that buggy version instead of the latest without the bug that can load that version too 16:52:28 <Zuu> (today OpenTTD can't make any dependency download for missing scripts) 16:53:11 *** LeandroL [~leandro@190.189.0.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but in this case the game was always played with this buggy version, so it doesn't get worse than before 16:55:20 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yes it is, because if the user report the bug and i fixes it : nothing change for him 16:55:49 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, as of today, user report the bug, i fix it, and tell user update from bananas and reload : and tada fixed 16:55:58 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: I asumed that OpenTTD would care about min/max compatible OpenTTD version when searching for missing content. At least when it looks for newer compatible content. But maybe that is where we are not thinkning the same way? 16:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: if looking for exact version to load for savegames, it ignores the version requirement 16:57:32 <Zuu> The easy way to handle scripts, is to do it that way using md5sum. 16:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i say 16:58:02 <Zuu> Then if user go to online-content dialog it can also download the last version of the script. If it is lucky the last version can load it. If it is unlucky it cannot. 16:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but krinn wants the more flexible "search for compatible instead of exact version" way 16:58:42 <Zuu> It may then miss some intermediate versions that are newer but not the newest (if the newest cannot load the game), but these cases may be too rare to care about. 16:58:54 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly 17:00:26 <Zuu> Also, in my experience, there have been very few cases where I have had the need to disconnect version compatibility. Eg. for most of my scripts, the last version can load all past versions. 17:01:25 *** LeandroL [~leandro@190.189.0.224] has joined #openttd 17:01:49 <krinn> i'm not sure i get it: i was thinking you want use md5 to tag name with script version and bananas download that md5, now i see you speak bananas just download latest version 17:02:22 <Zuu> krinn: We are only discussing the case when OpenTTD cannot find a compatible version locally. 17:02:43 <Zuu> Eg. when I get a save game from you and you forgot to also give me the GS that you used. 17:03:16 <krinn> Zuu : It's acceptable for me to download latest existing verison of a script, even it might not be compatible with it 17:03:29 <krinn> i prefer that than download the exact same version 17:03:37 <Zuu> I think you are mixing up with the upgrade path used when you fetch the newest version using online content and then OpenTTD find a newer compatible version avaliable locally upon load. 17:04:37 <Zuu> "even it might not be compatible with it" OpenTTD will refuse to load using this script in the load dialog. 17:04:55 <krinn> what i'm really against is : save with scriptv1 md5 AAAA and openttd only wish to run the savegame with md5 AAAA : the top for me would be download latest "MinVersionToLoad=version in save" but i can live with latest script version 17:06:09 <RainbowNines> hi guys, dave here. i'm doing some graphics stuff. i've used GRF Codec to decompile the base opengfx file. but there's lots of pink... i'm guessing i've done something wrong. any tips? 17:06:58 <Zuu> No. It is saved with "AAAA", script version: 1, md5: XYZ... . It will first try to locally on your disk find the latest "AAAA" that can load version 1. Just like today. Only if this fails, it will use the md5sum to grab that exact version from bananas. 17:07:04 <krinn> RainbowNines, why not just use the source ? 17:07:25 <RainbowNines> *shrug* i'm "new" to this side of the game. how do you mean? 17:07:26 <Zuu> The reason why we need the md5sum is that while "AAAA" exist on bananas, bananas doesn't contain the script version. 17:07:58 <krinn> RainbowNines: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx 17:08:11 <Zuu> Because several script authors have figured out that they could put eg "2.5" in bananas and integer "5" in the script. 17:08:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r26029 /trunk/src (gfx_layout.cpp gfx_layout.h) (2013-11-17 17:08:20 UTC) 17:08:27 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26017): The internal index of a character in the layout line depends on the used layouter. 17:09:31 *** FrenkyPohodar [~oftc-webi@ip-213-220-216-118.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:11:02 <RainbowNines> krinn: I'm a bit confused - where? I've looked all across that link...? 17:11:18 <krinn> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository 17:11:59 <Eddi|zuHause> RainbowNines: grfcodec has a "palette" option, try either "-p1" or "-p2" 17:12:13 <RainbowNines> thanks, both. 17:12:33 <FrenkyPohodar> I wish you a nice day. She appeared to me that is missing and I do not know what to do with it: UKRS2 must be load before this grf : ( Any advice, ideas? 17:12:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you need that same option on encoding 17:13:52 <krinn> FrenkyPohodar, in NewGRF settings, load UKRS2 then load the newGRF that complain 17:18:39 <RainbowNines> thanks krinn and Eddi|zuHause - working now! 17:18:57 <krinn> you're welcome, have fun 17:23:48 *** FrenkyPohodar [~oftc-webi@ip-213-220-216-118.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:27:59 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26030 /trunk/src/lang (54 files in 2 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:27:49 UTC) 17:28:00 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:28:01 <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv 17:28:02 <DorpsGek> japanese - 3 changes by nex259 17:28:03 <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas 17:28:05 <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 14 changes by Trond, cuthbert 17:29:02 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@85.186.160.35] has quit [] 17:30:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26031 /branches/1.3/src/lang (61 files in 2 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:30:42 UTC) 17:30:48 <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Backport from trunk: language updates 17:31:59 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26032 /branches/1.3 (6 files in 4 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:31:51 UTC) 17:32:00 <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Backport from trunk: 17:32:01 <DorpsGek> - Fix: The internal index of a character in the layout line depends on the used layouter (r26029) 17:32:02 <DorpsGek> - Fix: Make the installer warning about Windows XP SP3 not trigger on the 64 bit Windows XP which is not really Windows XP to start with [FS#5773] (r26028) 17:34:00 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@85.186.160.35] has joined #openttd 17:34:04 *** GrifffinOneTwo [~oftc-webi@adsl-68-125-219-250.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:35:46 *** eQualizer [~lauri@46-163-226-192.blcnet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:36:05 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26033 /branches/1.3 (6 files in 4 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:36:00 UTC) 17:36:06 <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Update: some documentation 17:40:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26034 /tags/1.3.3-RC1 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:40:08 UTC) 17:40:14 <DorpsGek> -Release: 1.3.3-RC1 17:43:57 *** eQualizer [~lauri@46-163-226-192.blcnet.fi] has joined #openttd 17:46:30 *** rubenwardy [~rubenward@host86-150-248-123.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> oooh! 17:52:54 *** retro|cz [~retro@ip-78-45-93-251.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:53:19 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: we need a news item, can you write one? 17:53:26 <frosch123> *please :) 17:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so 17:53:52 <frosch123> can you trick lordaro in writing one? 17:54:11 *** Dark-Ace-Z is now known as DarkAceZ 17:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, my level 3 telepathic skill is only passive, not active. 17:56:48 <rubenwardy> is it possible to change a setting: ie engine_renew_money, without restarting the game? 17:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> some yes, some now 17:58:40 <Eddi|zuHause> -w 17:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> engine_renew_money should be a company setting, so each player can change it in the advanced settings window 18:00:30 *** RainbowNines [~oftc-webi@host86-176-16-12.range86-176.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 18:04:57 <rubenwardy> Why is "drive on left" filtered out? 18:07:01 <Alberth> magic 18:08:19 <rubenwardy> I want to change "engine_renew_money" 18:08:36 <rubenwardy> I changed it in docs/openttd/openttd.cfg 18:08:39 <rubenwardy> but no effect 18:09:21 <frosch123> change it in game, not via config file 18:09:34 <rubenwardy> where? 18:09:57 <rubenwardy> It is not in "advanced settings" 18:10:18 <frosch123> it is 18:10:24 <frosch123> check the filters at the top 18:10:43 <rubenwardy> oh, company settings 18:11:06 *** LuHa [~harny@121.183.241.48] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:13:36 <LordAro> frosch123: my only area of (vague) expertise in new items is in crash logs ;) 18:14:51 <LordAro> i should finish that patch one day 18:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: not 'new', 'news'. as in article on the main page and forum 18:17:53 <LordAro> i meant news 18:17:55 <LordAro> :p 18:24:02 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-50dd93-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:38 <frosch123> LordAro: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/export/26034/tags/1.3.3-RC1/changelog.txt 18:24:56 <frosch123> only fixes, win9x should work again 18:25:04 <LordAro> :p 18:25:13 <LordAro> i'm actually writing up the wiki page now 18:25:19 <LordAro> it's sort of my job :) 18:25:27 <frosch123> hmm, damn, fair point :) 18:28:59 <LordAro> Rubidium/whoever: re 1.3.3-RC1 changelog, "layouting" isn't really a word, i think "layout would be better in this case 18:33:48 <LordAro> frosch123: here you go ;) http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD_1.3.3 18:38:07 *** Zuu_ [~Zuu@gateway.sdr.org] has joined #openttd 18:38:55 *** Bloody_Mikey [Bloody_Mik@h47n8-vb-d2.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [] 18:44:55 *** Zuu [~Zuu@gateway.sdr.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:48:22 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-50dd93-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:57:32 *** Haube [~michi@77-20-40-44-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 19:01:38 *** Zuu_ is now known as Zuu 19:05:56 *** rubenwardy [~rubenward@host86-150-248-123.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: You may notice this notice is not worth noticing] 19:45:26 *** gatis [~gatis@79-133-19-207.bredband.aland.net] has joined #openttd 19:45:26 *** gatis [~gatis@79-133-19-207.bredband.aland.net] has quit [] 19:47:02 *** gatis [~gatis@79-133-19-207.bredband.aland.net] has joined #openttd 19:47:29 <gatis> HI 19:47:41 <gatis> I am using Apple PowerPC G5 19:47:49 <gatis> Trying to install OpenTTD now 19:48:02 <gatis> I downloaded mac os x universal binary 19:48:19 <gatis> But game wont start 19:48:45 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 19:48:48 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 19:50:13 <gatis> So universal binary for my mac G5 isnt working 19:50:18 <gatis> :( 19:51:03 *** andythenorth [~Andy@146.255.4.130] has joined #openttd 19:51:52 <gatis> I downloaded free graphics sound and music set 19:52:57 <gatis> I have crash.log where canj i see what causes an error? 19:54:06 <andythenorth> so is the UI moving to an XML definition? 19:54:16 <andythenorth> I mean, it has loads and loads of obvious benefits 19:54:39 <andythenorth> cos the first thing most people think about a game is 'how do I change the UI?' 19:55:39 <frosch123> it's definitely the first thing i think when installing a new os 19:55:56 <frosch123> we need ottd os 19:56:33 <gatis> Please check my crash report 19:56:37 <gatis> http://pastebin.com/sj4DiUFi 19:57:40 <andythenorth> I know that Steve Jobs supervises my OS from beyond the grave 19:57:44 <andythenorth> so I have no need to change it ever 19:57:58 <andythenorth> it's instantly perfection, even if I don't realise it 19:58:36 <frosch123> gatis: maybe try a different version, 1.3.3-rc1, or if that fails as well, some older version 19:58:39 <frosch123> like 1.0 or 0.7 19:58:43 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.81.101] has quit [Quit: AdiIRC is updating to v1.9.2 Beta Build (2013/11/16-1) 64 Bit] 19:59:21 <frosch123> there are hardly 3 big endian users in total, so you have to explore some more on your own 19:59:29 <andythenorth> Alberth: did you play any more ottd? Got any Squid feedback? :) 19:59:30 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.17.81.101] has joined #openttd 20:00:06 <Alberth> just the white pixel folowing one of the boats 20:00:11 <gatis> I give up 20:00:24 * andythenorth fixes some exciting flashing pixels in Squid 20:01:04 <Alberth> and the tug boat being too cheap making another boat mostly useless 20:01:21 <gatis> I hate Apple G5 20:01:27 <andythenorth> Alberth thanks :) 20:01:31 <gatis> A prison PC 20:01:33 <Alberth> did not play much 20:01:33 <andythenorth> gatis: it's defunct 20:01:34 <krinn> gatis look at http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4689 20:01:43 <andythenorth> what are you doing with a G5? 20:01:55 <Alberth> I can give you the savegame if you like 20:01:56 <NGC3982> Evening. 20:02:08 <gatis> I cant even start the game... 20:02:30 <Alberth> boats are surprisingly useful as main transport 20:02:38 <gatis> I love ottd 20:03:05 <krinn> gatis try 1.3.3RC it include lot of fix for OSX 20:03:05 <gatis> but Apple G5 is just useless big metal box 20:03:12 <gatis> ok 20:03:22 <andythenorth> gatis: it's 10 years old, sell it :P 20:03:39 <krinn> andythenorth, to whom? a martian could buy that 20:03:44 <andythenorth> intel macs are useful, ppc macs are doorstops 20:04:07 <andythenorth> in the UK, depending what spec doorstop it is, G5 towers fetch up to a couple hundred pounds 20:04:16 <andythenorth> G5 imacs less so 20:04:20 <gatis> I simply cant install any game 20:04:27 <krinn> intel mac are good now that they are copy of a pc, but why buy a copy that is isn't even cheaper ? 20:04:43 <gatis> true 20:04:44 <Alberth> design! 20:04:46 <andythenorth> krinn: no mileage in that argument, it's old, and nobody won it 20:04:54 <gatis> I dont like apple 20:05:06 <gatis> very prison like 20:05:09 <andythenorth> gatis: you have no other box nearby? 20:05:19 <gatis> No 20:05:27 <andythenorth> :( 20:05:28 <Alberth> gatis: I know, that's why I don't have one 20:05:32 <gatis> great 20:05:42 <gatis> Windows always been best 20:05:51 <Alberth> yeah, X11 rocks! 20:06:00 <gatis> What is X11? 20:06:12 <Alberth> Unix windows system 20:06:17 <gatis> pl 20:06:19 <gatis> ok 20:06:36 <gatis> I just dont like Apple - its so expensive 20:06:45 <LordAro> so why do you have one? 20:06:55 <gatis> Im visiting my parents 20:07:27 <gatis> THey have Ipads, Iphones 20:07:38 <krinn> Alberth, it's not like the X in osX mean X11 :) 20:07:42 <gatis> Its a fashion thing clearly 20:07:44 <frosch123> and leave the g5 to you? :p 20:07:57 <gatis> yeah :) 20:08:08 <gatis> We all know Apple is for fashion 20:08:09 <Alberth> krinn: no idea, but X11 was 20 years earlier :p 20:08:20 <andythenorth> yeah /me is really very fashionable 20:08:24 <gatis> Windows is for entertainment and work 20:08:31 * andythenorth is a fashion icon 20:08:34 <Alberth> work :o 20:08:35 <krinn> but it was with os 10 that jobs goes with X11 20:08:51 <andythenorth> yeah, me and my X11 mac get loads done 20:08:56 <frosch123> gatis: i am quite entertained by mac users suffering. does that count? 20:09:07 <gatis> yes 20:09:07 <Alberth> krinn: quite likely, your avererage Apple user wouldn't even know what X11 is :p 20:09:28 <krinn> i'm not sure it's limit to "average" :) 20:09:54 <Alberth> :) 20:10:00 <gatis> I simply cant tell you why people like Apple 20:10:13 <gatis> Because its a mass instinct 20:10:18 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 20:10:30 <andythenorth> yup, /me is a big old sheep 20:10:49 <LordAro> windows is entertainment - it's fun to laugh at it 20:10:52 <gatis> There is nothing better than in other tablets, phones, pc 20:11:07 <krinn> because all is tied, but tied to apple, and if you keep buying apple product, they are working fine with themselves, but once you start using something else, you'll see you're in prison 20:11:18 <gatis> No 20:11:45 <gatis> Itš a fashion boom 20:12:13 <andythenorth> how long have you two used macs for? 20:12:14 <gatis> People buy them because its cool 20:12:21 <andythenorth> days, weeks, years? 20:12:39 <gatis> I like android and windows and ubuntu 20:13:03 <gatis> Nothing special in mac 20:13:10 <frosch123> i though android doesn't run ttm 20:13:12 <gatis> I dont see why should i have macintosh 20:13:25 <gatis> Why? 20:13:29 <gatis> Its expensive 20:13:56 <frosch123> you are missing a "r" in your nickname btw 20:14:11 <gatis> no 20:14:12 <krinn> lol frosch123 20:14:14 <andythenorth> crack cocaine is expensive too 20:14:19 <andythenorth> I believe 20:14:23 <gatis> ok 20:14:27 <andythenorth> although you can probably make crack 20:14:33 <andythenorth> does anyone know how to make crack? 20:14:34 <gatis> Not blaming you for having Apple 20:15:02 <gatis> But i think its little deceptive 20:15:12 <gatis> ok big deception 20:15:20 <krinn> andythenorth, got a contract to ref crack maker with the nsa ? 20:15:30 <andythenorth> :) 20:16:45 <gatis> Anyway as always happens 20:16:54 <gatis> Someday Apple will hit its lows anyway 20:17:21 <gatis> Like it was before 20:18:01 <frosch123> nah, they will switch to building gaming consoles 20:18:31 <gatis> They can but you never know with what will come other companies 20:18:45 <gatis> Maybe they invent something amazing 20:18:54 <gatis> And get whole focus on that 20:18:57 <gatis> Like Iphone did 20:19:30 <gatis> But iphone is nothing new anymore 20:19:39 <gatis> People always want something new 20:19:55 <gatis> Apple has become predictable 20:20:10 <gatis> thin designs, white grey black, etc. 20:20:23 <gatis> They don't come with anything fresh 20:20:29 <andythenorth> if they want to maintain a fashion brand, that's going to kill them 20:20:31 <frosch123> you mean they are switching to producing kitchen tools? knives and such? 20:20:38 <gatis> iphone 5s looks same as iphone 1 20:20:42 <frosch123> thin and metal white/grey? 20:20:48 <andythenorth> apple should make plates 20:20:54 <andythenorth> and coasters 20:21:06 <andythenorth> maybe an electric carving knife 20:21:09 <andythenorth> iKnife 20:21:16 <andythenorth> iFork 20:21:21 <krinn> don't worry iWatch is on its way 20:21:36 <gatis> no too predictable 20:21:48 <gatis> icar 20:21:50 <gatis> iPC 20:21:51 <krinn> but without steve jobs genius, i'm afraid next product from apple will be iSucks 20:21:52 <gatis> bla bla 20:22:05 <gatis> You see you even predict 20:22:23 <gatis> But fashion boom will be a product you dont even dream of 20:22:36 <frosch123> iSpoon is definitely cool 20:22:45 <andythenorth> you guys are sure interested in this considering you are not fanbois 20:22:47 <frosch123> how to easier check your messages during breakfast? 20:23:15 <frosch123> i never liked watches, i always break them :p 20:23:24 <frosch123> but i never destroyed a spoon 20:23:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: the original brief for the ipad was a device for steve jobs to read email on the toilet 20:23:31 <andythenorth> with that thinking, what's next? 20:23:43 <gatis> There are many stuff from samsung LG and sony going on 20:23:50 <gatis> flexible screens 20:23:59 <gatis> etc. 20:24:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: uhm, iCoffing? :s 20:24:07 <frosch123> -g 20:24:13 <gatis> transparent phones 20:25:13 <gatis> For example in Mac Os X i dont see anything unique 20:25:29 <frosch123> how do you make photos/videos with a transparent phone? 20:25:35 <andythenorth> I dunno, OS X has blue buttons 20:25:40 <andythenorth> do the others have blue buttons? 20:25:43 <andythenorth> pretty unique? 20:25:51 <gatis> its not unique 20:25:53 <frosch123> blue buttons are unique to the custom currency window 20:25:55 <Alberth> frosch123: just look through the phone 20:26:09 <gatis> Yeah but its future phone 20:26:13 <krinn> frosch123, drop the phone in paint? 20:26:35 <frosch123> oh, i get it! "phone" 20:26:37 <gatis> future isnt so beatuiful at the moment 20:26:46 <frosch123> a phone is meant for audio stuff, no need to see it 20:26:54 <Alberth> lol 20:26:59 <krinn> lol 20:27:03 <Alberth> tactile feedback :p 20:28:11 <gatis> I can say i wont buy iphone because its current fashion thing 20:28:22 <gatis> Because majority have it 20:28:25 <frosch123> clothes are a fashion thing for years 20:28:27 <gatis> Its boring 20:28:30 <frosch123> don't buy clothes! 20:28:37 <Xaroth|Work> hipster 20:28:45 <frosch123> clothes have been worn for thousands of years 20:28:48 <frosch123> how boring 20:28:52 <gatis> I need clothes more 20:28:58 <frosch123> time for something news 20:29:03 <frosch123> maybe transparent cloths? 20:29:18 <Alberth> clothes made of transparent phones 20:29:22 <gatis> Its wise to compare clothes with phone? 20:29:25 *** Taede [~Taede@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:42 <frosch123> how about clothes with built-in phone and tv? 20:29:42 *** Taede [~Taede@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 20:30:20 <gatis> thats reality 20:30:42 <frosch123> clothes made of old phones is definitely fashonable 20:31:34 <gatis> At least when i use android i dont feel that agenda - iphone is a fashionista 20:31:39 <krinn> frosch123, i hope lady gaga won't read that... 20:32:17 <gatis> Sorry i hate Apple 20:32:33 <frosch123> really? 20:32:36 <gatis> yes 20:32:40 <frosch123> why? 20:32:54 <gatis> Its made to be cool 20:33:06 <gatis> I see no other explanation 20:33:20 <krinn> and you don't like to be cool ? 20:33:27 <frosch123> but isn't the first rule of being cool to not try to be cool? 20:33:33 <gatis> Not in worldly way 20:33:38 <krinn> it's that so awesome to be a crap junk ? 20:34:06 <frosch123> i thought only untrve people are trve 20:34:07 <gatis> I think Apple subliminals are - buy us because your ego wants it 20:34:21 <gatis> Because cheaper products are not for your ego 20:34:27 <gatis> you must be cool! 20:34:41 <Alberth> isn't advertisement great? 20:34:41 <gatis> Despite some are cheaper and much better 20:34:47 <krinn> why you think it's subliminal ? people can just buy it because they knows their ego want it 20:35:10 <gatis> subliminal because they dont say it in my words 20:35:58 <krinn> well, last time i asked a mac price, the vendor didn't stare at me in my eyes while saying : it's not the price you are looking for 20:36:36 <gatis> Thats they price want to pay 20:36:52 <gatis> just for piece of metal and plastic 20:37:04 <gatis> :) 20:37:08 <frosch123> metal prices are rising 20:37:18 <gatis> apple is overpriced 20:37:26 <frosch123> maybe you can even eat some plastics 20:37:32 <krinn> gatis the good price is when people buy it 20:37:39 <frosch123> that would be an advantage compared to plain money 20:37:41 <gatis> Yes they buy it 20:37:50 <krinn> so the price is good 20:37:52 <gatis> I know why 20:38:04 <gatis> Its about them 20:38:19 <frosch123> about who? 20:38:27 <gatis> No one else 20:38:33 <gatis> You 20:38:48 <frosch123> me? 20:38:55 <gatis> a human being 20:39:00 <gatis> his desires 20:39:02 <frosch123> ah, so not me 20:39:15 <gatis> satisfying unsatisfied 20:39:28 <gatis> Apple is all about that 20:39:36 <gatis> You feed your ego 20:39:40 <frosch123> are you satisfied? 20:39:42 <gatis> But you cant feed it 20:39:43 *** DDR [~kvirc@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 20:39:49 <gatis> I am when i can say no to Apple 20:39:51 <krinn> so they loose customers if the satisfy them ? 20:39:55 <gatis> I am satisfied 20:40:01 <gatis> yes 20:40:03 <frosch123> so, apple is for the greater good? 20:40:16 <gatis> If people are satisfied Apple are doomed 20:40:17 <frosch123> some people are happy about apple, others are happy about complaining about them 20:40:30 <frosch123> sounds like win-win 20:40:33 <gatis> Satisfying yourself is not a great good 20:40:50 <gatis> But you cant satisfy yourself 20:40:53 <gatis> Thats the trick :) 20:40:57 <frosch123> but you are on the internet! 20:41:01 <gatis> yes 20:41:11 <frosch123> isn't that about self-satisfaction? 20:41:17 <gatis> No 20:41:28 <krinn> frosch123, you didn't get it: yes if you do it with a mac 20:41:59 <gatis> Ask a question why do you buy an Apple 20:42:04 <gatis> And why not other 20:42:18 <gatis> By the way cheaper and better product 20:42:26 <gatis> better in terms of powerful 20:42:35 <frosch123> i have access to self-grown apples from a garden 20:42:46 <frosch123> but i prefer pears 20:43:05 * andythenorth is a bit confused tbh 20:43:08 <frosch123> and i never buy the cheapst product 20:43:21 <andythenorth> why is this still happening on my internets? 20:43:27 <gatis> I am satisfied 20:43:33 <frosch123> with what? 20:43:41 <gatis> me 20:44:05 <gatis> If i am not i need the coolest material things 20:44:07 <gatis> Apple 20:44:09 <gatis> Mercedes 20:44:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: we are alread at 45 minutes, i though we could only manage 15 20:44:24 <gatis> But i am fine 20:44:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: it is pretty epic 20:44:35 <frosch123> so, you have a mercedes? 20:44:38 <gatis> no 20:44:40 <andythenorth> it's like some kind of breakdown in public 20:44:46 <frosch123> why are you satisfied then? 20:44:53 <gatis> Because i am 20:44:54 <krinn> so finally, your parents aren't cool, if i get it ? 20:45:07 <gatis> I have much valuable things 20:45:16 <gatis> which is impossible to buy 20:45:18 <frosch123> what? an iphone? 20:45:21 <gatis> no 20:45:31 <frosch123> ah, love! 20:45:34 <krinn> frosch123, a google driven phone :) 20:45:48 <frosch123> you love your parents, despite of them using apple products! 20:45:53 <gatis> For me a tool is a tool 20:45:57 <frosch123> what a lovely turn-around :) 20:45:57 <gatis> I dont adore a tool 20:46:26 <krinn> so you love people, even they aren't cool ? 20:46:53 <gatis> I dont love tools for sure 20:46:57 <gatis> phones 20:46:59 <gatis> cars 20:47:01 <gatis> etc. 20:47:31 <gatis> Some people arent cool 20:47:38 <gatis> But they are more worthy than iphones 20:48:09 <gatis> But some people are very lonely they are more happy about new iphone than their friend 20:48:24 <andythenorth> this is an important philosophical discussion 20:48:30 <gatis> Spends more than with tool than a living human being 20:48:55 <Alberth> just like some people chat on the internet? 20:49:35 <gatis> ye 20:49:43 <krinn> ok, it's not i'm giving up, but my cat wants to play, and until i can get an iMouse i'm the tool 20:49:49 <krinn> later 20:49:53 <Alberth> :D 20:50:07 <andythenorth> I have Squid to look after 20:50:12 <andythenorth> they won't feed themselves 20:50:28 <Alberth> but they just had fish 20:50:36 <gatis> Yeah i know what you mean 20:50:43 <gatis> Of course people live in society 20:50:50 <gatis> But the way they live.. 20:50:56 <andythenorth> Alberth: I have to feed them some more FISH 20:51:16 <andythenorth> those pesky mac users, bringing about the downfall of society 20:51:18 <Alberth> always a good idea, but not too many, you want to keep them small 20:51:33 <andythenorth> Alberth: that's true, small Squid are tastier 20:51:36 <frosch123> i am sure the nsa uses macs 20:51:53 <gatis> People work and do this and that... discluding spiritual life 20:52:23 <Alberth> churches are excluded from mac use? 20:52:34 <gatis> why churches 20:52:55 <andythenorth> dalai lama is banned from mac use by Apple 20:52:57 <andythenorth> it is well known 20:52:58 <Alberth> they do spiritual life as work, don't they? 20:53:03 <gatis> Apple wont bring you peace 20:53:20 <frosch123> sure 20:53:27 <gatis> or feeding cat 20:53:32 <frosch123> you can hardly shoot something while playing angry birds 20:53:37 <gatis> or having 2000 friends in facebook 20:53:48 <andythenorth> it is true that Apple is to blame for Facebook 20:53:48 <gatis> or having tons of money 20:53:58 <frosch123> you don't have 2000 friend no facebook? 20:54:04 <gatis> i dont use it 20:54:08 <andythenorth> if you look carefully at FB logo, you can see it is actually an Apple 20:54:15 <frosch123> i have 125 in this chatroom alone 20:54:33 <andythenorth> and Zuckerberg is actually another illegitimate child of Stephen P. Jobs 20:54:42 <gatis> Yeah but friend is not a just a person 20:55:01 <frosch123> exactly, dorpsgek is a perfect example 20:55:10 <frosch123> of a friend who is not just a person 20:55:43 <gatis> Older the earth colder the people 20:55:49 <gatis> Empty souled 20:56:03 <frosch123> yeah, don't dig too deep 20:56:05 <gatis> Technology just takes place 20:56:05 <andythenorth> I miss the old days 20:56:18 <andythenorth> I liked it when we had no electricity 20:56:24 <frosch123> i heard about people digging too deep in minecraft 20:56:36 <frosch123> and loosing their soul to something in the deep 20:56:38 <andythenorth> technology is terrible 20:56:40 <gatis> Why we need to build friendships in internet? 20:56:48 <andythenorth> we need to go back to the old ways, like books 20:57:02 <Alberth> no cars 20:57:06 <gatis> Mostly people use Iphone to be in facebook, instagram.. To use social sites 20:57:15 <andythenorth> really? 20:57:19 <gatis> Yes 20:57:26 <andythenorth> how strange of them 20:57:30 <gatis> The problem is not using the tool 20:57:31 <andythenorth> to me it's just a sub-standard phone that has baby photos on it 20:57:42 <gatis> Problem forgeting who you are 20:57:57 <gatis> Calling white is black 20:58:07 <andythenorth> life was much better before we had social networking 20:58:11 <andythenorth> people lived in small towns 20:58:17 <andythenorth> and they had to be like everyone else 20:58:29 <andythenorth> and spend time with their relations, who they often had nothing in common with 20:58:34 <andythenorth> we should go back to that 20:58:47 <gatis> In 2020 Intel will put brain chip connected to internet.. You will surf in your head and read emails. 20:58:56 <andythenorth> and anyone with unusual interests was either shamed, or physically beaten 20:59:01 <frosch123> emails? seriously? 20:59:03 <andythenorth> emails? 20:59:07 <frosch123> you believe in that? 20:59:10 <andythenorth> I haven't read emails since Christmas 2012 20:59:11 <gatis> are you surprised? 20:59:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: some people will probably read emails :( 20:59:29 <andythenorth> it seems to be a thing people do 20:59:34 <gatis> When you were 10 years old did you know we will be at this stage? 20:59:42 <gatis> no 20:59:48 <gatis> Dont be surprised 20:59:54 <gatis> Its reality 20:59:57 <gatis> We have robots 21:00:01 <gatis> Gemenoids 21:00:09 <andythenorth> we have killer flying quadcopters 21:00:21 <andythenorth> and privately owned delta wings with guns 21:00:28 <gatis> yes we do 21:00:31 <andythenorth> omfg 21:00:34 <andythenorth> we're all doomed 21:00:37 <gatis> We have system to kill us efficiently 21:00:47 <gatis> We have made a spy system 21:00:51 <gatis> We are smart people 21:01:05 <gatis> We have made virtual friendship reality 21:01:11 <gatis> We are GREAT! 21:01:18 <frosch123> or tall 21:01:21 <krinn> gatis if i can correct you i think the good one is "We are Borg, resistance is futile" 21:01:22 <andythenorth> or vast 21:01:28 <gatis> And we have made great weapons to kill ourselves. 21:01:31 <andythenorth> we are epic! 21:02:08 <andythenorth> so (off-topic) can we have OTTD - the drugs and guns edition? 21:02:14 <gatis> This is what happens when human being adores tools 21:02:25 <gatis> Tools enslave humans 21:02:41 <andythenorth> this is true 21:02:43 <Zuu> Oh, AIs got 1024 chars for saving settings. For each setting this is saved: "[name]=[value]," where value is an integer converted to string using %d. So if you say a random setting use 10 chars for "name=value,", then you can have 102 settings. 21:02:47 <andythenorth> I have watched 2001 21:02:57 <andythenorth> the beginning tells you all you need to know 21:03:03 <andythenorth> Kubrick was very forward-thinking 21:03:24 <gatis> I am getting sick 21:03:27 <andythenorth> bones as weapons 21:03:43 <gatis> I am getting sick of this world 21:03:46 <frosch123> ah, that beginning 21:03:49 <Zuu> For GS it is also 1024 characters. So those GSes with insane amount of settings may eventually run into this limit. 21:04:11 <gatis> Do i have i choice to not love a humans? 21:04:16 <andythenorth> Alberth: found your white pixel thanks :) 21:04:22 <frosch123> Zuu: do you mean openttd.cfg? 21:04:32 <frosch123> or are they really saved like that in the savegame? 21:04:33 <gatis> Who will i love on this earth except humans? 21:04:37 <Alberth> yw :) 21:05:02 <krinn> savegame include the 1024 chars ? 21:05:21 <Zuu> frosch123: I refer to the save game. 21:05:33 <krinn> gatis try goats, they don't use iphone 21:05:45 <gatis> Today people shallow 21:05:48 <gatis> are 21:05:52 <andythenorth> I just read a book about a goat with a boat 21:05:57 <andythenorth> he had no sail 21:06:01 <andythenorth> so the giant gave him his shirt 21:06:17 <gatis> Where are values as faith, love, hope, forgivness, mercy? 21:06:27 <gatis> Deepness of heart? 21:06:34 <Zuu> It uses ScriptConfig::SettingsToString 21:06:52 <krinn> it also mean a one setting can flood (a crazy namethatishugeas1024chars) 21:06:54 <frosch123> Zuu: feels weird, why would settings be saved like that :s 21:06:57 <andythenorth> gatis: they're not in this bit of irc, this is a channel for people with somewhat aspergic tendencies 21:07:17 <gatis> I mean about this world 21:07:31 <gatis> Its empty 21:07:40 <gatis> No humans left 21:07:47 <gatis> a small small portion 21:08:03 <gatis> rest are robots 21:08:06 <gatis> zombies 21:08:20 <gatis> suck into devils machinery called world 21:08:21 <andythenorth> gatis: you seem sad, you might be happier away from irc 21:08:28 <gatis> im very happy 21:09:02 <gatis> This brainwashing machine is doing nothing but destroying creation 21:09:20 <gatis> Sucking from you everything beautiful 21:09:28 <gatis> So you are empty 21:09:44 <gatis> Feel no shame 21:09:58 <andythenorth> I have no shame 21:10:02 <gatis> Without conscience 21:10:09 <andythenorth> I have 2 children. Shame is a luxury. 21:10:46 <gatis> And to live with empty soul is a way to avoid bitterness of sin 21:10:52 <andythenorth> I rescind that 21:10:55 <gatis> but the bitterness comes with it 21:11:04 <gatis> you lose power to feel and love truly 21:11:12 <gatis> Your heart becomes a rock 21:11:22 <gatis> and your heart of flesh is thorn out 21:11:24 * andythenorth wonders 21:11:29 <andythenorth> is this a turing test? 21:11:35 <gatis> its reality 21:11:40 <gatis> Of modernised world 21:11:44 <gatis> modernised heart 21:11:53 <gatis> robotic humanity 21:12:03 <andythenorth> is it a dictionary attack? 21:12:08 <andythenorth> or a poetry bot? 21:12:10 <gatis> slowly but surely programmed with all tactics 21:12:25 <gatis> to enslave, kill and destroy 21:12:33 <gatis> To tell a lie in your face 21:12:43 <gatis> To make you fear and make you close your heart 21:12:53 <gatis> To accept the lie even you know its a alie 21:13:08 <gatis> welcome to the world 21:13:18 <gatis> Welcome to the New World Order 21:13:25 <Zuu> frosch123: The only good about that is if someone re-order the settings it has the ability to recover from that. 21:13:25 <krinn> that's a real good thing 21:13:25 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:25 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 21:13:25 *** heffer_ [felix@hyperion.fk.cx] has joined #openttd 21:13:25 *** jonty-comp [~jonty@000128f3.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:25 *** jonty-comp [~jonty@borealis.jontysewell.net] has joined #openttd 21:13:32 *** Netsplit reticulum.oftc.net <-> charon.oftc.net, coulomb.oftc.net quits: @DorpsGek, guru3, @Rubidium, rhilo, Ammler, SpComb^, dihedral, Yexo, frosch123, SmatZ, (+29 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 21:13:32 *** Netsplit kinetic.oftc.net <-> reticulum.oftc.net quits: Sacro, Wolf01, Pensacola, apiecux, Vadtec, Pereba, Speedy, tokai|mdlx, Nothing4You, lugo, (+51 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 21:13:36 <andythenorth> hmm 21:13:44 <andythenorth> well there's some new order 21:13:50 <andythenorth> for those who enjoyed that split 21:13:51 <gatis> Globalisation 21:13:57 *** Netsplit over, joins: Haube, KritiK, HerzogDeXtEr, XeryusTC, Jomann, Eddi|zuHause, JGR, V453000, jrambo, SpComb (+16 more) 21:13:57 <gatis> Spying 21:14:18 *** Netsplit over, joins: jonty-comp, heffer_, tycoondemon, DDR, Taede, Pereba, Zuu, eQualizer, sla_ro|master, LeandroL (+51 more) 21:14:20 <LordAro> dat netsplit 21:14:36 *** Netsplit over, joins: SpComb^, peter1138, +glx, frosch123, Ammler, jjavaholic, Defaultti, Yexo, Osai, ntx (+3 more) 21:14:41 <gatis> I wish this days come faster 21:15:05 <frosch123> did i miss anything? 21:15:09 <gatis> I look at those people who saluted to Hitler and sayd Heil Hitler 21:15:11 <krinn> oh lol, even split can't stop him 21:15:14 <gatis> What they were thinking? 21:15:32 <gatis> What are thinking youth when they say yes to devil? 21:15:41 *** heffer [felix@hyperion.fk.cx] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:15:46 <gatis> They are like animals heading to slaughter 21:15:51 <Rubidium> so... now this discussion is officially over 21:15:57 <gatis> They praised the Hitler 21:16:05 <gatis> And got killed by Hitler 21:16:12 <gatis> Its the Devil 21:16:16 <andythenorth> it's a godwin test bot! 21:16:26 <gatis> Devil could be anything 21:16:28 *** mode/#openttd [+v planetmaker] by ChanServ 21:16:29 <gatis> You name it 21:16:29 <krinn> andythenorth, i hope it just reach the end so 21:16:29 <andythenorth> it uses a learning algorithm 21:16:31 *** mode/#openttd [+v Terkhen] by ChanServ 21:16:39 <gatis> Just name it 21:16:45 <gatis> Shadow goverments 21:16:49 <gatis> Mega bankers 21:16:55 <gatis> controling your world 21:16:58 <gatis> what you eat 21:17:00 <gatis> what you read 21:17:08 <gatis> how you live 21:17:19 <frosch123> ah, i give up 21:17:19 <Rubidium> what was it, +q? 21:17:21 <frosch123> @ban gatis 21:17:22 <krinn> gatis i think everyone get the point now, you can stop and breath 21:17:30 <frosch123> @whoami 21:17:30 <DorpsGek> frosch123: frosch 21:17:42 <gatis> The truth is so terrible you just cant bear it :( 21:17:46 *** mode/#openttd [+q gatis!*@*] by Rubidium 21:17:51 <frosch123> why is it not working? 21:18:01 <Rubidium> don't know 21:18:03 <Rubidium> or is it? 21:18:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: maybe something took over the controls? 21:18:08 <krinn> lazy iBot ? 21:18:08 <andythenorth> maybe this is the singularity? 21:18:15 *** mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ 21:18:30 <andythenorth> maybe, somewhere on the east and west coast, two AIs just linked? 21:18:35 <andythenorth> and acquired consciousness 21:18:40 <andythenorth> and now they're upset about hitler 21:18:42 <LordAro> @kick andythenorth :p 21:18:45 <frosch123> hmm, i thought ban was a command 21:18:50 <frosch123> but there is only kban 21:19:00 <planetmaker> good evening 21:19:08 <LordAro> moin planetmaker 21:19:09 <planetmaker> frosch123, ban is a command. But ban != kick 21:19:13 <krinn> hi planetmaker 21:19:14 <planetmaker> thus kban is available, too :-) 21:19:19 <Alberth> isn't ban just preventing re-entry? 21:19:23 <planetmaker> ^ 21:19:32 <frosch123> Alberth: ban is like silence 21:19:42 <frosch123> no reenty, no talking 21:19:49 <frosch123> but listening till leaving 21:20:01 <frosch123> planetmaker: dorpsgek does not know ban 21:20:04 <frosch123> @help ban 21:20:04 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Error: There is no command "ban". 21:20:06 <LordAro> either way, Rubidium quieted him :) 21:20:17 <planetmaker> hm :-) 21:20:29 <LordAro> i like to imagine that he's still talking :) 21:20:54 <Rubidium> yeah, banning is not freedom of speech 21:21:05 <Rubidium> s/is/so is/ 21:22:07 *** mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ 21:24:31 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6AEA3.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 21:27:42 *** adf89 [~Thunderbi@wis-zul.spine.pl] has quit [Quit: adf89] 21:31:07 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6C99E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:35:26 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:06 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:36:41 *** DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@50.107.53.200] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:44:33 *** gatis [~gatis@79-133-19-207.bredband.aland.net] has quit [Quit: gatis] 22:05:21 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@85.186.160.35] has quit [] 22:05:31 <frosch123> night 22:05:35 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcf68.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 22:05:54 <Eddi|zuHause> oooh... so i missed the action :/ 22:10:40 <andythenorth> nvm 22:10:45 <andythenorth> :) 22:10:49 <andythenorth> also bye 22:10:54 * andythenorth -> bed 22:10:55 *** andythenorth [~Andy@146.255.4.130] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:18:08 <Wolf01> 'night all 22:18:13 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:19:30 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [] 22:37:54 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A2DD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:16 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@98.145.153.186] has joined #openttd 22:45:35 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@98.145.153.186] has quit [] 22:45:53 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@98.145.153.186] has joined #openttd 22:54:55 *** Jomann [~abchirk@g225187050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: What? 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