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Log for #openttd on 31st January 2014:
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00:23:13  <slee> ok, this isn't much help...on the openttd wiki page: "Tips for Town Growth" - ...or increase acceptance of cargos such as Goods.....how does one 'increase acceptance'? i have a train/goods train running through there, but the station won't accept goods, only passengers/mail
00:24:33  <slee> i have my headquarters there, brought population up from 300 to 700, ran large ad campaign, funding buildings..everything i can see to do, just can't get them to accept goods
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01:50:43  <Elyon> slee: 700 is still a small town
01:51:06  <slee> it finally started accepting, thanks
01:51:15  <Elyon> slee: you can query the house tiles to see their acceptance of goods using the question mark icon in the top right hand corner of the menu
01:51:18  <slee> it's at about 2500 now
01:51:20  <Elyon> oh okay :)
01:51:29  <Elyon> well, it also depends on where you place your station
01:51:35  <slee> right
01:51:51  <Elyon> basically, you will see numbers like "Acceptance of goods (3/8)" when querying a specific house type
01:52:16  <Elyon> you need to cover enough of those kinds of houses to reach at least 8/8 goods acceptance with your station coverage
01:52:29  <slee> i thought i had industried 'won't disappear' in settings..but i JUST setup a new station next to a forest, first train entered, filled up to about 20%...forest vanished
01:53:29  <Elyon> you can "cheat" and keep ctrl held while building stations or lorry stops to join them together. Building a lorry stop in the middle of a town and connecting it this way to your (possibly further away) train station is a good way to get goods acceptance even from smaller towns
01:53:45  <Elyon> and I don't think there is such a setting as 'industries won't disappear', but let me check :)
01:54:20  <Elyon> I think what you set was "News and Messages" for closing of industries, maybe?
01:54:33  <Elyon> that only changes whether you're notified of their closure, not whether they actually close
01:54:58  <slee> oh
01:55:41  <Elyon> sorry about the delay in answering, by the way :)
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01:56:04  <Elyon> I think most people in here are GMT +/-2
01:56:23  <slee> np
01:56:36  <slee> i'm -5
01:56:43  <Elyon> east coast?
01:56:50  <Elyon> or brazil or something?
01:58:18  <Supercheese> GMT -8, representin'
01:58:39  <Elyon> good evening :)
01:58:43  <slee> alabama(us)
01:58:54  <Hazzard> :|
01:58:55  <Elyon> alabama is -5? huh ...
01:58:56  <Supercheese> Idaho
01:59:04  <Elyon> oh, of course
01:59:09  <Elyon> -6 from me :p
01:59:26  <Supercheese> right on the eastern edge of -8, really
01:59:38  <Supercheese> you can drive straight south and hit GMT -7 :P
01:59:46  <Elyon> hehe
01:59:55  <Supercheese> timezones :|
01:59:55  <Elyon> weird, that
02:00:01  <Elyon> timezones \o/
02:00:10  <Elyon> well, /o\
02:00:21  <Elyon> that's why we have GMT
02:00:28  <Elyon> or UTC
02:00:35  <Supercheese> and DST
02:00:35  <Elyon> double standards!
02:00:48  <Elyon> DST sucks in the long run
02:00:52  <Supercheese> yeah
02:00:52  <Elyon> it's trying to fix a broken system
02:00:59  <Supercheese> I blame Franklin
02:01:02  <Supercheese> think it was him
02:01:07  <Elyon> either way you blame him
02:01:09  <Elyon> I like it
02:01:19  <Supercheese> crazy old Ben
02:02:12  <Elyon> we should all just agree to use UTC, but we have! In computers
02:03:19  <Elyon> comp-utahs
02:03:58  <Supercheese> 'puters
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02:31:45  <slee> sorry, had to step away, - 6 hours here in bamaland(not -5)
02:33:29  <slee> hmm..i'm still confused as to how a forest vanished while i was loading from it, i thought forest was an industry that never vanishes seeing that it's replanted
02:41:56  <Elyon> no, every industry might close with poor service through some time
02:42:34  <Elyon> you can always enable construction while paused, build your connections, and then not waste potential closing-time construction the connection
02:42:39  <Elyon> if you're into that :)
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03:14:22  <Elyon> is it possible to join AI companies while they're doing their thing?
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09:17:22  <dihedral> good morning
09:17:33  <Elyon> good morning
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09:18:28  <dihedral> you seem busy in a few channels there Elyon :-)
09:19:10  <V453000> (:
09:20:15  <planetmaker> don't distract him, dihedral ;)
09:20:24  <planetmaker> he's our new newgrf coding slave! :P
09:20:42  <Elyon> shush!
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12:15:06  <Andreas> Is the "Disable infrastructure building when no suitable vehicles are available" function broken or am I not understanding the effect it should have correctly? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=69924
12:15:27  <Andreas> or bettter said: It seems like it can't be turned off
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12:16:35  <peter1138> doesn't affect railtypes
12:16:57  <peter1138> but does affect road/depots/rail/stations/docks/airports
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12:18:18  <Andreas> ah I see
12:19:51  <Andreas> I was being misled by the word 'infrastructure there then I guess...
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12:22:56  <Andreas> does not make much sense to build railtypes with no available vehicles anyway I guess...
12:24:49  <peter1138> basically the railtype check was always there
12:25:03  <peter1138> the infrastructure check is a later thing and doesn't affect the railtype check
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13:20:48  <__ln__> planetmaker: apparently also the spanish spelling
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13:27:12  <Pikka> there's no Sukhoi Superjet in av8, no.
13:33:20  <Tuhin> Pikka, then it should be updated to add new aircrafts .. dreaminer is there?
13:33:35  <Tuhin> 777 dreamliner
13:33:50  <Pikka> I'm not updating av8 any more
13:33:58  <Tuhin> i didn't get time to play long enough to discover new plances
13:34:09  <Tuhin> planes*
13:34:14  <Tuhin> why Pikka?
13:34:30  <Pikka> because I'm working on new things :)
13:34:43  <Tuhin> take your time and add more stuff at a later date :)
13:35:01  <Tuhin> just keep a "to add/to do ist"
13:35:05  <Tuhin> list*
13:35:12  <Tuhin> which new things?
13:35:23  <Pikka> av8's pretty done, I think. Next, I'll make av9. ;)
13:35:30  <Pikka> http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php/Av8 has the complete list of what's in av8, btw
13:35:35  <Tuhin> btw i really like the FAST planes in av8
13:42:11  <Tuhin> nice train gfx u r working on Pikka
13:42:38  <Tuhin> why chinese bots downloads stuff automatically? its new news to me...
13:43:01  <Pikka> I don't know. Just bots or spammers scraping websites.
13:44:05  <Pikka> I'd come up with a more elegant solution if I cared about Trainz, but I don't. :)
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14:03:58  <andythenorth> mm AV9
14:04:01  <andythenorth> the smaller edition
14:05:29  <Tuhin> smaller edition?
14:06:43  <andythenorth> slimline, bijou, reduced fat, lean
14:06:59  * andythenorth bbl
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14:07:29  <Tuhin> Pikka, is there such a slim release?
14:07:42  <Pikka> not yet
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14:24:46  <gogoprog> hi
14:25:07  <gogoprog> I just played openttd 1.3.3
14:25:19  <gogoprog> and I had trouble with road car auto repair
14:25:37  <gogoprog> is there a bug or am I using it wrong?
14:26:31  <planetmaker> the problem description is *slightly* too vague to even attempt to answer that question in a qualified way :)
14:26:31  <gogoprog> it was saying "autorepair failed due to money limit" all the time but I had money
14:26:43  <planetmaker> oh, that's normal. Check the money limit
14:27:04  <planetmaker> it's not >0 but >500k or something you set in adv. settings
14:29:22  <gogoprog> thank you!
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15:09:21  <slee> hmm..looking at the train/manager/replace window for the first time, it appears that the 'replace' function is to only replace an exisitng train with another model, do you not have the ability to replace the train with the same type engine?
15:10:02  <slee> ...i know you can manually send a train to a depot and replace it, but is there an 'auto' ability?
15:12:03  <Aristide> So
15:12:12  <Aristide> For go to bellecour, I can take busline 37 (16:15), 69 (16:18), C26 (16:23), 37 (16:28), C26 (16:33) :D
15:12:29  <Aristide> Good bye =)
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15:13:11  <Pikka> slee, there's "autorenew", which will automatically replace it with the same type when it gets old
15:13:35  <slee> thanks, i just found the article on it
15:23:11  <slee> pikka, does the setting have to be set before  you start a game? i existed my game, went into settings and enabled auto renew..went back into saved game and sent all trains to depot for maintainance, but it doesn't seem to have renewed my trains
15:23:40  <Pikka> set it while the game is running
15:26:58  <Pikka> it's a per-save setting and can differ between games, setting it on the main menu will set it for future games but won't affect existing saves
15:29:21  <Japa_> planetmaker, you around, and preferably bored?
15:34:28  <slee> pikka, i found my problem, i forgot i had trains set to not breakdown(while learning the game)
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16:20:35  <Pikka> I'm wrong about it being a savegame setting too, aren't I? It's a per-player setting...
16:20:58  <Pikka> teva
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16:41:58  <Pikka> hello again andythenorth
16:42:02  <andythenorth> lo
16:43:20  <Pikka> "treacherous Australian terrain"
16:45:00  <Pikka> hmm
16:47:18  <planetmaker> Japa_, I'm hardly ever bored and prefer highlights which don't consist of meta-questions
16:49:47  <Japa_> Sorry
16:50:15  <Japa_> Won't do that again
16:51:00  <planetmaker> so what was your real question?
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16:55:47  <Japa_> It was about your patch to NML, but very shortly after highlighting you, I realized that I have a lot of reading to do before I get to a point where I can ask meaninful questions about it.
16:56:28  <planetmaker> my patch to NML?
16:57:06  <Japa_> about the grid stuff
16:57:31  <planetmaker> oh, you mean how to teach NML about a new action5?
16:57:37  <Japa_> yeah
16:58:06  <Japa_> but then I realized I'd need to read more about how NML works before I can do that. maybe also read some python
16:59:05  <planetmaker> the important bit there the first hunk in nml/actions/action5.py
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16:59:27  <planetmaker> it adds one GUI sprite. And it adds the actual grid sprites as action5, type 0x17
16:59:32  <planetmaker> 107 sprites overall
16:59:41  <Japa_> action5_table?
17:00:00  <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/grid/nml_grid.diff <-- that one
17:01:42  <planetmaker> not sure what you mean with action5_table
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17:02:17  <Japa_> that's what's being modified
17:03:23  <planetmaker> ah, yes, right :D
17:03:30  <planetmaker> that's basically the only thing needed
17:03:53  <planetmaker> the rest in that patch is rather specific additions for the grid patch
17:04:19  <Japa_> So I'd be adding 'LANDSCAPE_TILE_BORDERS' : (0x18, 300, Action5BlockType.OFFSET), to that, then
17:04:57  <planetmaker> yup
17:05:30  <Japa_> http://pastebin.com/7MSSCpis
17:05:48  <Japa_> this is pretty much how I should be defining the spright numbers, right?
17:07:10  <planetmaker> yeah. If there's a subsequent sprite, that needs adjustment, too
17:07:26  <Japa_> I did that.
17:08:06  <Japa_> So I got the sprites defined, and I got NML to make GRFs for them. Now I just have to make the sprites drawn and I can throw together a GRF to test it with... hopefully.
17:08:09  <planetmaker> wouldn't TILE_TRANSITION not be the better name than TILE_BORDER?
17:08:26  <Japa_> Hm... likely
17:09:32  <planetmaker> https://rhodecode.openttdcoop.org/pota-ghat/files/94ddfeb4718f78b2351c8c06963dc37fe7cc95ef/gfx-source <-- here with the terrain.xcf and terrain_32bpp.xcf you could likely create relatively easily some sprites by adding some proper transparency masks and then exporting the right layers
17:10:53  <Japa_> I'm scared of doing sloped transitions :(
17:11:24  <planetmaker> you don't need to do all. For the patch it suffices to make a demonstration, I think
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17:12:12  <planetmaker> for demonstration most of the 300 sprites could be 100% transparent
17:12:28  <Japa_> It's more that slopes would multiply the sprite reservation by 19 or whatever the number of slope offsets there is
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17:13:57  <planetmaker> it's a sprite artist problem  :P
17:14:09  <Japa_> true
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17:15:34  <planetmaker> basically I'll need for each terrain type 4*19 transition sprites, right?
17:15:40  <planetmaker> when I consider all slopes
17:16:52  <planetmaker> well, all but one terrain type :D
17:17:01  <Japa_> there's 32 possible transition sprites for flat ground
17:17:50  <planetmaker> how does that add up?
17:18:34  <Japa_> there's one per each combination of 4 edges, that's 16 sprites
17:18:47  <Japa_> then one per each combination of corners. that's another 16
17:18:51  <planetmaker> oh. make it simpler: draw one sprite for each edge
17:18:55  <Japa_> 2 are empty, though
17:19:00  <planetmaker> maybe?
17:19:01  <Japa_> so it's down to 30
17:19:09  <Japa_> possibly.
17:19:45  <planetmaker> hm... river dikes... that's 12 transition sprites: straight sides. curves with both sides filled. and small curves with only the edge filled
17:20:04  <planetmaker> so a river tile is composed such that
17:20:08  <planetmaker> a) water is drawn
17:20:22  <planetmaker> b) dikes are drawn: straight when adjacent is land
17:20:40  <planetmaker> c) dikes big corner is drawn when both adjacent are land
17:20:58  <planetmaker> d) dikes small corner is drawn when both adjecent are water and the diagonal is land
17:21:48  <Japa_> Yeah, I'm probably doing this the hard way
17:21:52  <planetmaker> hm... maybe much of its code can even be generalized?
17:22:12  <planetmaker> sorry, didn't think of that before
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17:33:17  <Japa_> http://pastebin.com/XexggsDH
17:36:29  <planetmaker> I would probably use a single #define TRANSITION_SPRITES 4*19
17:37:35  <planetmaker> or 12*19? :D
17:38:02  <Japa_> point
17:38:16  <planetmaker> @calc 12*19*7
17:38:16  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 1596
17:38:20  <planetmaker> :-O
17:38:57  <Japa_> @calc 30*19*7
17:38:57  <DorpsGek> Japa_: 3990
17:39:21  <planetmaker> and now temperate, tropical and toyland, too
17:39:53  <planetmaker> @calc 12*19*16
17:39:53  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 3648
17:40:13  <planetmaker> in total for all climates, using snow transitions, grass, rock, rough, desert
17:40:53  <planetmaker> welcome to lands of insanity :D
17:41:56  <Japa_> yeah, I'm removing rough grass and rocks. they'll just use grass transitions
17:42:48  <planetmaker> hm, nah
17:43:48  <planetmaker> especially for rocks I'd find that sad :)
17:44:01  <planetmaker> they need the transition
17:44:19  <Japa_> fair enough.
17:44:48  <planetmaker> and it's easy to simply use the same sprites
17:44:57  <planetmaker> but much more difficult to change it later on
17:45:04  <Japa_> right.
17:46:22  <Japa_> anyway, now I sleep. It's late, and I have work tomorrow
17:46:55  <planetmaker> sleep well, Japa_
17:47:26  <planetmaker> I believe it would  be helpful to discuss the possible technical paths maybe with a wiki page before much time is spent on coding
17:47:44  <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttd.org/Terkhen/Scenario_format <-- something analogue to this
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17:50:17  <Japa_> For now, have an animation I made while having entirely too much time on my hands at work
17:50:18  <Japa_> http://youtu.be/94RPlA-QXcw
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19:29:11  <Wolf01> o/
19:31:12  <Sacro> \o
19:31:24  <Wolf01> oh a Sacro :D
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19:32:53  <Pikka> does it?
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20:06:04  <andythenorth> andypeter
20:06:17  <andythenorth> ho ho
20:06:18  <andythenorth> oops
20:06:50  <Alberth>  hi hi
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20:14:46  <FLHerne> Evening
20:15:34  <FLHerne> Is the svn-revision webinterface broken for everyone, or just me? http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/
20:16:03  <Pikka> seems broken to me
20:17:08  * FLHerne wonders where to file website-bug tickets
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20:19:57  <Alberth> trac being down is not a bug, it just happens every now and then ;)
20:20:45  *** Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
20:21:19  <FLHerne> Surely having links to broken things is always a bug? :P
20:23:12  <Alberth> if you want to report web-site bugs, use the normal bug tracker, at the top you can select other projects than openttd
20:27:33  <FLHerne> Alberth: Ah, I see it now :-)
20:27:34  <frosch123> FLHerne: use hg.openttd.org
20:27:39  <frosch123> it's better anyway
20:28:26  <Tirili> Hey
20:28:30  <Tirili> I am new to the game.
20:28:38  <Tirili> Where can I send post cars to?
20:28:59  <FLHerne> Other stations that supply mail
20:29:08  <Alberth> truck stations in a town
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20:29:34  <FLHerne> Passengers and mail are bidirectional - buildings that produce them also accept them
20:29:41  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
20:30:32  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
20:31:15  <Tirili> So I must build truck stations first?
20:31:17  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
20:32:41  <Alberth> yes, at a place where you accept or supply mail
20:33:15  <Alberth> just like all other transports, first build a station, then send train/truck/bus etc
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20:35:22  <luaduck> sorry about that spam, trying to get nickserv to like me
20:38:53  * FLHerne didn't see any spam
20:42:21  * luaduck was doing nickswapping
20:42:36  <luaduck> so if you've got nick changes disabled in your client, you probably didn't see it
20:44:39  <FLHerne> Why would you *not* disable that sort of thing? :P
20:47:49  <Tirili> Alberth: I have created three truck stations next to city centers, but the mail truck which is driving between them doesn't carry any packages. :(
20:50:44  <Alberth> we need pictures or a save game to say anything
20:50:56  <Alberth> without it, it's just random guessing
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22:07:30  <Tirili> ok
22:07:58  <Tirili> and what could be reasons for a train not leaving the depot, although is has well defined task?
22:08:10  <planetmaker> signaling
22:10:51  <Xaroth|Work> refusing to crash into another train, basically :P
22:10:57  <planetmaker> ^^
22:11:48  <Tirili> let me see
22:14:05  <planetmaker> good night
22:16:01  <Elyon> Tirili: unpause?
22:16:02  <Elyon> :D
22:16:28  <Tirili> 4 people just diead in my trains :(
22:17:12  <FLHerne> Tirili: Did you force it past a signal?
22:17:19  <Tirili> yea
22:17:43  <Tirili> Is there a tutorial about sharing railwaytracks between multiple trains?
22:18:07  <FLHerne> That's never a good idea - if it won't pass a signal, it almost always means passing it would cause a crash
22:18:25  <Elyon> Tirili: look into signalling?
22:18:51  <Tirili> It had the choice to go into another lane, but it didn't do so.
22:18:54  <FLHerne> http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals
22:19:07  <FLHerne> Tirili: Are you using block signals? Don't :P
22:21:50  <Tirili> Thank you!
22:28:41  <frosch123> night
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22:29:04  <Elyon> Tirili: once you've got a basic network going, though, I'd advise you to go back to block (pre)signals
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22:48:43  <Pikka> psh. PBS is all you need!
22:51:27  <FLHerne> Elyon: Why? They're only useful in certain unusual situations
22:52:11  <FLHerne> Great for prios or other regulation systems, but for signalling normal junctions and stations they just take up more space
22:53:16  <Elyon> FLHerne: PBS takes time to decide sometimes
22:53:35  <Elyon> which can severely slow down a main station, MSL, MSH and possibly mainline
22:53:49  <Elyon> that's what made me go back to presignals
22:54:42  <Elyon> for small pickup stations PBS is fine, but anything larger and I'd say presignals is better, gives you more control
22:55:19  <Elyon> plus train choice
22:55:43  <Elyon> minus decision delay
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22:56:45  <Elyon> circumstantially PBS is fine or even awesome, but in general - and this might just be me (and others) - I'd use presignals unless there's a clear reason to use PBS over presignals in that specific case
22:57:06  <Elyon> I used to think PBS was all you needed as well, though, until a few weeks back, mind you
22:57:23  <V453000> Elyon, people are lazy and refuse to use brain :P
22:57:49  <Elyon> I still use it for smaller pickup stations, and use the two-way PBS backwards to penalise paths although YAPF usually does that for me
22:58:00  <Elyon> I was lazy and refused to use brain ;)
22:58:07  <V453000> was :)
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22:58:59  <Elyon> 'text string' seems redundant
22:59:03  <Elyon> 'string' probably suffices
23:00:41  <Wolf01> 'night
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