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00:08:45 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2.221.246.223] has joined #openttd 00:17:15 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6CDED.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:24:39 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d083d59.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 00:51:03 *** JezK_ [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has joined #openttd 00:57:04 <sim-al2> Ok update: I think that the server advertises for a minute then stops. I am using the dedicated mode and a player was able to find the server and join from the list but now the server does not appear. 01:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that might mean you have a fishy connection 01:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the masterserver uses UDP to test your server. if lots of packages get lost, it might not get a reply 01:35:07 *** DarkenMoon [DarkenMoon@2602:100:6028:c90e:dd33:a53f:8b99:e7a7] has joined #openttd 01:38:02 *** DarkenMoon [DarkenMoon@2602:100:6028:c90e:dd33:a53f:8b99:e7a7] has quit [] 01:43:51 *** shirish [~quassel@117.195.112.167] has joined #openttd 01:52:34 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 01:57:37 *** supermop [~supermop@d210-49-171-146.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 02:03:11 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@46-239-218-77.tal.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:08:35 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 02:08:40 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@46-239-218-77.tal.is] has joined #openttd 02:56:24 *** Biolunar_ [Biolunar@x5d82390c.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 03:02:43 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:03:23 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d083d59.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:09:21 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:20 *** CompuDesktop [~quassel@2604:6000:120a:a013:e9f3:630c:2692:e3e0] has joined #openttd 03:24:58 *** Compu [~quassel@2604:6000:120a:a013:a5a9:30d:3e3b:7915] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:29:18 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 04:46:58 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2.221.246.223] has quit [Quit: To robbery, slaughter, plunder they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace.] 04:50:34 *** Pokka [~Octomom@124-171-225-158.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 04:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC6674D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 04:56:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC663C4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 05:41:51 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 05:47:55 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 05:47:58 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 05:57:04 *** roidal [~roland@193-154-142-146.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 06:01:03 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.205.194.64] has joined #openttd 06:01:25 <Alberth> moin 06:01:34 <andythenorth> o/ 06:18:48 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.205.194.64] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:21:39 *** wicope [~wicope@0001fd8a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 06:32:48 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.205.194.64] has joined #openttd 06:33:05 * andythenorth considers a âcasualâ supplies mechanic 06:33:12 <andythenorth> for the player who canât really be bothered :) 06:33:16 <andythenorth> Alberth: ^ ? o_O 06:34:11 <Alberth> what does that mean? 06:35:46 <Alberth> and while flattered, tbh I am not sure you should do that, most players play firs for exactly the supplies, as I understand it 06:36:49 <Alberth> so as game mechanic it's a good concept 06:37:09 *** shirish [~quassel@117.195.126.6] has joined #openttd 06:38:22 <Alberth> obviously, I am aware I am dropping a large part of the game play by not handling supplies :) 06:40:06 <Pokka> how does it work? 06:40:34 <V453000> XD yeah how does it work 06:40:40 <Alberth> oh, I do use cdist for supplies, just drop supplies at a point 'nearby', and let a different train run a circle delivering; cdist does some form of splitting the delivered cargo :) 06:40:40 <V453000> Pikka RVs look awsum 06:40:59 <Alberth> hello Vs and Pokkas 06:41:06 <Pokka> hello 06:41:32 <andythenorth> also 06:42:21 * andythenorth hmms 06:42:26 <andythenorth> how to code âyou have made a token effort at delivering supplies, here is a small rewardâ 06:43:05 <Alberth> is there a point? 06:43:26 <Alberth> with BB, it's fun to deliver 25t coal to the other side of the map 06:43:46 <Alberth> if I have to deliver supplies, I can just as well do it properly 06:44:12 <Alberth> it's basically not much more than buying a longer train to move the stuff 06:47:05 <Alberth> perhaps my main problem with supplies is the precise timing of it 06:47:34 <Alberth> and lots of players seem to have troubles delivering the precise amount too 06:48:29 <Alberth> it's a bit like feeding tropic towns in the desert, they need food+water in the same month 06:48:49 <andythenorth> itâs a very similar mechanic 06:48:49 <Alberth> it's hopeless if you try that with independent supply chains 06:49:42 <Alberth> supplies is better in the sense that you have 1 cargo, and a time window, instead of a calendar month 06:50:14 * andythenorth wonders about quarterly amounts 06:50:35 <Alberth> to me, it's too much detailed messing about 06:50:47 <andythenorth> and more stable production 06:50:49 <Alberth> on the other hand, lots of people really seem to like the idea 06:51:21 <andythenorth> I am +/-0 to the whole concept 06:51:42 <andythenorth> I donât like the original TTD mechanic for increasing production 06:51:48 <Alberth> timetables, worried about the bearings of russian wagons, all very much detail 06:51:55 <andythenorth> but I donât think FIRS is categorically better 06:52:24 <Alberth> I don't think you can generalize such notions 06:52:46 <Alberth> the best you can do is decide for yourself 06:53:04 <Alberth> and even then, there is normally not a single winner 06:53:37 <Alberth> I like the increasing production, but it's my sytle of playing 06:55:24 <Alberth> if you make changes, make them additions, and keep the original behavior 06:55:25 <argoneus> good morning train friends 06:55:45 <Alberth> people can try different variations, and decide what they like best 06:58:32 <andythenorth> I am keeping current version 06:58:39 <Alberth> +1 06:58:50 <andythenorth> the question is whether there are 1 or 2 alternatives that would be fun 06:59:03 * andythenorth bbl :) 06:59:23 <Alberth> see you 06:59:24 *** andythenorth [~Andy@213.205.194.64] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:38 *** Pikka [~sammich@124-171-225-158.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:58 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 07:08:39 *** Pokka is now known as Pikka 07:27:16 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 07:41:23 *** shirish_ [~quassel@59.95.1.146] has joined #openttd 07:41:38 *** shirish_ [~quassel@59.95.1.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:47:34 *** shirish [~quassel@0001358e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:03:24 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19534.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 08:21:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has joined #openttd 08:22:20 <andythenorth> Pikka bob: industry production that increases by year. You canned all that? 08:24:24 <Alberth> wb 08:24:37 <Alberth> what are you trying to solve? 08:24:39 <V453000> that sounds simple nicely, but I think it would be great if the player still gets the higher production only if it is serviced 08:24:53 <Alberth> change the mechanism, or add one as alternative, or improve it? 08:24:56 <V453000> ie, just capping original industries at ~1000 units of cargo per month max would be fine 08:27:48 <Alberth> if you want to reduce the 3-months stress, you could simply store unused supplies rather than consume it without using it 08:28:20 <Alberth> perhaps with a small degradation, not sure you need that 08:29:11 <Alberth> an alternative can be to used delivery-based instead of time-based 08:30:08 <Alberth> if you want a more extreme variant, you could require a minimal amount of deliveries before producing stuff 08:42:13 <andythenorth> âAlberth: what are you trying to solve?â <- I wonder that too 08:42:22 <andythenorth> this is more of the experimental thinking 08:43:55 <Alberth> towards simplifying for casual players, towards more advanced players, something else? 08:44:22 <andythenorth> dunno, towards inventing variety in gameplay I think 08:44:24 <Alberth> making it more complicated or more challenging? 08:44:32 <andythenorth> challenging / different 08:44:38 <andythenorth> PBI does that well 08:44:39 <Alberth> more rewarding 08:44:59 <andythenorth> I canât play PBI anymore, the stockpiling mechanic bores me horrid now, but it was fun for some time 08:45:32 <Alberth> stockpiling in itself isn't a problem, it's the capping that breaks things, imho 08:45:40 <andythenorth> eh standard game progression for a player is modelled as: (1) learning the game (2) mastering the game (3) boredom 08:45:50 <andythenorth> thatâs your basic ludic theory 08:46:03 <andythenorth> people write books that are much longer, but say the same :P 08:46:05 <Alberth> I think that holds universal 08:46:40 <Alberth> I have great respect for people that manage to eg run a shop for a decade 08:47:01 <Alberth> I would be bored beyond belief 08:47:03 <andythenorth> so I am looking for new options for (1) a new mechanic to learn (2) a mechanic that is fun, not tedious 08:47:26 <andythenorth> doesnât have to be supplies 08:47:39 <andythenorth> problem is, every âinterestingâ idea I think of, would be better in GS 08:48:38 <Alberth> at local industry level, I think you can only reward steady deliveries as 'new' 08:49:36 <Alberth> perhaps getting more output for the same output, if you keep input at the same level for a longer time? 08:49:54 <Alberth> ie the industry 'optimizes' on the input level 08:50:07 <Alberth> *for the same input 08:50:58 <andythenorth> I think a âsteadyâ or âgradualâ mechanic is worth doing, probably along the lines Eddi suggested 08:51:28 <andythenorth> anything else is beyond FIRS 08:51:28 <Alberth> the more optimized, the narrower the band of allowed deviations 08:51:58 <Pikka> canned by year 08:52:07 <andythenorth> becauseâŠ.silly? 08:52:14 <andythenorth> or cba? 08:52:24 <Pikka> although something more deterministic and controllable than "random" for sure. 08:52:25 <Alberth> I think it's all experimental anyway, you have to code and try it, to decide if it's useful 08:52:49 <Pikka> by year makes assumptions about increasing carriage capacity over time 08:52:51 <Pikka> too "realistic" 08:52:56 <andythenorth> yair 08:53:05 <Pikka> and also non-interactive 08:53:08 <andythenorth> Pikka: what will your supplies do? 08:53:14 <andythenorth> also how do Yetis work? 08:53:20 <Alberth> maybe have different mechanics for different industry types? 08:53:23 * andythenorth could just steal someone elseâs idea 08:53:36 <Alberth> afaik, yetis work very hard :) 08:53:47 <Pikka> my supplies will either temporarily increase production, progress the industry towards an upgrade, or both. haven't really worked out any mechanics yet :) 08:54:02 <andythenorth> âlevel upâ 08:54:26 <andythenorth> (1) delivering gives a temp (30 day) boost to next level 08:54:40 <andythenorth> (2) delivering consistently for 12 months makes that level permanent 08:54:50 <andythenorth> this is like old FIRS + new FIRS 08:55:06 <Pikka> something like that 08:55:28 <andythenorth> is there a âlevel downâ? 08:55:29 <andythenorth> :P 08:55:59 <Pikka> nope, I've got some idea about industries going bust though. if you level them up you have to maintain high service or they'll close down on you, or something. 08:56:31 * andythenorth ponders designing for small maps 08:56:38 <andythenorth> more micro-management 08:57:05 <Pikka> test everything on 256*512 imo :P 08:57:17 <Pikka> bigger maps are fundementally silly. 08:58:22 <Alberth> ECS closes down on you, Pikka 08:58:51 <andythenorth> bigger maps introduce all kinds of problems 08:59:11 <Alberth> couldn't you just 'punish' by lowering production for some time? 08:59:18 <andythenorth> eh, also micro-management is too easily dismissed as âmicro-management is bad, mkay' 08:59:46 <andythenorth> more micro-management imo, mediated by GS 09:00:08 <Pikka> I think most of the specific mechanics will be switchonoffable 09:00:16 <andythenorth> controversial 09:00:19 <Pikka> since no-one can agree on what makes a good industry grf :P 09:00:35 <andythenorth> I thought it was understood that ECS has nailed it? 09:00:45 <andythenorth> dunno 09:00:54 <Pikka> in general, I quite like the idea of industries closing and opening during gameplay, both primary and secondary. 09:00:54 <Alberth> by definition, people are never happy with what you give them 09:01:07 <andythenorth> eh 09:01:09 <Pikka> makes the game world more alive, makes network building less fire-and-forget 09:01:16 <Pikka> more micromanagement ;) 09:01:21 <Pikka> or middle-management, perhaps 09:01:28 <andythenorth> letâs extend NoGo so it can handle the industry monthly and random cbs 09:01:35 <andythenorth> then we get production level and closure 09:01:40 <Pikka> it needs to happen in an explicable and predictable way though 09:02:05 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Random_production_change_.2829.29 09:03:05 * Pikka never played ECS... at least not for many years. 09:03:09 <Alberth> I would prefer a saner interface than n*2 times 09:03:52 <andythenorth> 0D and 0E 09:03:58 <andythenorth> thatâs how âoldâ FIRS did it 09:04:11 <Alberth> ah, nice 09:04:20 <andythenorth> that cb is feature-complete imo 09:04:27 <andythenorth> it does everything a GS would need 09:04:45 <andythenorth> and itâs only called monthly per industry, so not CPU intensive 09:05:06 <andythenorth> or thereâs a random equivalent, which varies by smooth / non-smooth economy iirc 09:05:49 <andythenorth> âlocusts eat your grain, your grain network is in chaos" 09:06:05 <Pikka> nom nom nom 09:06:11 <andythenorth> â3 years of good weather means bumper harvest" 09:06:29 <Alberth> cb can be used once / month only? 09:06:34 <andythenorth> yes 09:06:48 * Pikka sometimes wishes for a global random seed accessable to newgrf 09:06:57 <andythenorth> I thought there was one? 09:06:57 <Pikka> so we could have a bumper harvest, across all farms. 09:07:09 <Pikka> I don't think so? I've been asking for one for a while... 09:07:14 <andythenorth> I worked out a hack once by counting towns 09:07:16 <andythenorth> or some such 09:07:26 <Pikka> hmm 09:07:31 <andythenorth> oh you can read town registers 09:07:38 <andythenorth> strictly they could be used for message passing 09:07:43 <andythenorth> never tried it 09:07:49 <andythenorth> was advised it was a Bad Idea 09:07:56 <Pikka> it sounds it :) 09:36:35 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-161-82.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:39:58 * andythenorth hi hoes 09:40:00 <andythenorth> bbl 09:40:01 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:46:47 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-99-199.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:54:08 *** tycoondemon2 [~ashnohoe@D97B8CD4.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:55:29 *** Pensacola [~quassel@c80094.upc-c.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 09:58:04 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97B8CD4.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 09:58:52 *** CompuDesktop is now known as Compu 09:58:56 *** Compu [~quassel@2604:6000:120a:a013:e9f3:630c:2692:e3e0] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 09:59:10 *** Compu [~quassel@2604:6000:120a:a013:e9f3:630c:2692:e3e0] has joined #openttd 09:59:14 *** DDR [~david@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 10:01:36 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97B8CD4.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 10:02:06 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97B8CD4.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:06:59 *** DDR [~david@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:07:20 *** DDR [~david@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 10:14:26 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2.221.246.223] has joined #openttd 10:15:14 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97B8CD4.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 10:18:20 <supermop> yo 10:19:10 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@D97B8CD4.cm-3-4c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:20:20 <supermop> is it wrong to use this huge 'centennial' diesel to pull passenggers? 10:28:18 <Flygon> No 10:28:30 <Flygon> Heavy Harry was designed for pax, afterall 10:28:45 <Flygon> And it was Australia's singular most powerful locomotive from the 1930s through to 1995 10:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't really have a lot of choice anyway 10:44:49 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x5f7426b1.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 10:45:14 <Alberth> hola 10:46:48 <frosch123> hoi 10:53:56 <supermop> the fp40 or whatever looks boring doubleheaded 10:54:32 <Alberth> ugh, palette of newgrfs is not saved :( 10:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but where would you save it? 10:58:16 *** Klanticus [~quassel@179.234.179.109] has joined #openttd 11:01:49 <Alberth> in openttd.cfg probably 11:01:50 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose nobody bothered to implement it 11:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it's only needed if your ancient grfs have mixed palettes 11:06:45 <Eddi|zuHause> if all have the same palette, just use the default switch 11:18:59 *** DDR_ [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 11:22:24 *** DDR [~david@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: DDR is not Dance Dance Revolution.] 11:27:55 *** DDR__ [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 11:27:55 *** DDR_ [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:36:40 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6CDED.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:36:46 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has joined #openttd 11:40:35 <andythenorth> Pikka: wanna make an industry set together? o_O 11:40:52 <Pikka> sure. when do you want to start? :D 11:41:02 <andythenorth> about 4 years ago 11:41:10 <Pikka> sounds about right 11:41:16 <andythenorth> TAIFIRS 11:41:38 <Pikka> I'll write some pineappleindustry documentation some time soon 11:41:42 <Pikka> maybe after the kickstarter 11:41:59 <Pikka> definitely after tonight, I have about another thousand words to write in the next 2 hours. :) 11:42:05 <andythenorth> I like GarryG, he has sent me some PMs 11:42:08 <andythenorth> nice bloke 11:42:18 <andythenorth> someone should kick Pikka 11:42:21 <andythenorth> so he wordses 11:42:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having a hard time distinguishing which of these lines are ironic :p 11:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (if in doubt: all of them.) 11:42:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: sometimes even English people struggle with that 11:42:51 <andythenorth> sometimes even the speaker [writer] 11:47:37 *** DDR__ [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: DDR is not Dance Dance Revolution] 11:47:50 *** DDR [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 11:48:21 *** DDR [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 11:48:35 *** DDR [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 11:54:26 * andythenorth wonders what this âdivâ and âmultiâ do in FIRS clustering, and what they should be set to 11:56:05 <andythenorth> I want slightly more clusters than Iâm getting 11:57:03 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/templates/industry_location.pnml#L69 11:57:51 <Alberth> it's a work around for the obsessiveness of newgrf for integer numbers :) 11:58:07 <Alberth> ie you cannot multiply with 0.6 11:58:26 <andythenorth> as far as I can see, if mult is 1, and div is 2 11:58:27 <Alberth> so you multiply with 3, and then divide by 5 11:58:31 <andythenorth> I should get 2 clusters per map 11:58:37 <andythenorth> on 256x256 11:59:23 <andythenorth> a better algorithm would limit the number of industries per cluster, then go build more :P 11:59:24 <andythenorth> mybe 11:59:40 <Alberth> mult and div just means ( (real)mult/div ) as multiplication factor 12:00:06 <Alberth> but in the integer domain, so you get an integer number as result 12:01:43 <Alberth> hmm, yeah, T3rkhen looked into that one at some time, but it appeared you cannot express "I want N industries at most" (for N=3) 12:02:23 <andythenorth> hmm 12:02:35 <andythenorth> so if mult = 1 and div = 3 12:02:52 <andythenorth> how many clusters? :P 12:03:07 <andythenorth> infinite? 12:04:01 * andythenorth canât do maths 12:05:25 <Alberth> Any idea what "industry_clusters" is at line 84? 12:05:49 <andythenorth> map scaling factor 12:05:52 <andythenorth> itâs a parameter 12:06:19 <Alberth> oh, wrong macro problably? 12:07:22 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/snakebite/entry/src/templates/parameters.pypnml 12:07:46 <andythenorth> the comment is wrong on L6 I think 12:07:56 <andythenorth> closures / clusters /s 12:08:05 <Alberth> industry_count(related) * mult / div / industry_clusters != 0 <-- this counts the related industries, multiplies it with 1/3 (in your case), and checks it's less than 1 12:08:15 *** Pensacola [~quassel@c80094.upc-c.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:39 <Alberth> which of course fails if you have 3 or more industry_count(related) 12:08:54 <Alberth> (assuming the parameter is 1) 12:10:08 <andythenorth> < 1 evaluates same as !=0 :o 12:10:16 <andythenorth> integer maths, floor? 12:13:05 <Alberth> yes, unless they are negative 12:13:47 <Alberth> but that's about how you truncate a floating point number 12:28:04 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 12:36:59 <supermop> can i re-order my orders, but in the same order? 12:38:17 <supermop> like right now the order list is "CDAB", can i easily make it "ABCD" without messing up my timetable? 12:39:30 <supermop> apparently yes, 12:39:42 <supermop> for some definitions of 'easily" 12:40:21 <V453000> heyoo you arent asleep yet :) sending email in 1 minute :P 12:40:58 <supermop> coool 12:41:00 <andythenorth> so coal mine has mult = 2 and div = 3 12:41:13 <andythenorth> so 1 cluster per 256*256 of map size 12:43:23 *** JezK_ [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has quit [Quit: :q!] 12:45:44 * andythenorth wonders if fractional amounts are worth bothering with 12:45:51 <andythenorth> and also, FIRS doesnât work at 256*256 12:45:53 <andythenorth> so eh 12:46:14 <andythenorth> maybe just specify number of clusters 12:47:16 <Alberth> make 'div' 1 :) 12:54:43 *** Xaroth_ [~Xaroth@254-058-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:55 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@00017153.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 12:57:59 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6E3B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 13:06:03 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6E3B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:07:47 *** DDR_ [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 13:07:47 *** DDR [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:08:58 <andythenorth> ha 13:09:03 <andythenorth> thatâs plausible hax :P 13:10:40 <andythenorth> I canât see any code to enforce distance _between_ clusters 13:10:45 <andythenorth> as I read that 13:11:20 <andythenorth> until specified number of clusters, there is no check for distance to related industry 13:12:15 <andythenorth> so clusters might easily co-locate 13:12:21 <andythenorth> and I suspect that actually they do this 13:17:41 *** Pikka [~Octomom@124-171-225-158.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:36 *** Pikka [~sammich@124-171-225-158.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 13:26:58 *** DDR__ [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 13:26:59 *** DDR_ [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31:27 <andythenorth> hmm farms map probability was set insanely high 14:00:10 <andythenorth> 0 && 1 = 0 14:00:10 <andythenorth> ? 14:00:15 <andythenorth> 0 || 1 = 1 14:00:16 <andythenorth> ? 14:01:06 <Alberth> what is the problem? 14:01:38 <Alberth> '&&' means 'and', ie 'both must hold' 14:02:00 <Alberth> '||' means 'or', ie 'at least one must hold' 14:04:13 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/templates/industry_location.pnml#L80 14:04:21 <andythenorth> L84, I need to add another check 14:04:41 <andythenorth> need to check âindustry_count(related) * mult / div / industry_clusters == 0" 14:04:57 <andythenorth> and also enforce a min. distance to another industry 14:05:12 <andythenorth> would be easier done by splitting switches tbh, more readable 14:05:21 <andythenorth> also if there were fewer \ chars :P 14:08:33 <andythenorth> hmm 14:09:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: got a game to hand? :P 14:09:31 <andythenorth> nvm if youâre busy 14:10:11 <Alberth> I have 3 conversations going currently :) 14:11:11 <andythenorth> I need a second opinion on last FIRS commit 14:11:13 <andythenorth> not urgent 14:11:36 <andythenorth> basically means running map gen a few times and giving opinion on primary industry distribution 14:11:45 <andythenorth> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/d7127138eab4 14:17:26 *** Pensacola [~quassel@c80094.upc-c.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 14:24:08 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has joined #openttd 14:26:33 <Alberth> some industries are missing in 1950, that is intended I assume? 14:28:40 <andythenorth> which ones? 14:28:46 <andythenorth> recycling? 14:31:39 <Alberth> think so 14:31:43 *** Pikka [~sammich@124-171-225-158.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:32:11 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/default_industries.png is more busy than http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/firs_industries.png 14:32:15 <andythenorth> you saw the hg branch is âsnakebiteâ btw, not default? o_O 14:32:28 <Alberth> yes, I saw 14:32:40 <Alberth> I assumed that was intended :) 14:32:46 <andythenorth> yes 14:32:57 <andythenorth> ah, the default map is interesting 14:33:06 <andythenorth> FIRS âconsumesâ quite a lot of industries for towns 14:33:13 <andythenorth> shops and so on 14:33:21 <andythenorth> so relatively fewer primary + secondary 14:33:25 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6AC3F.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 14:33:47 <andythenorth> we talked once about letting the industry grf specify the number of industries to generate, over-riding TTD 14:34:18 <andythenorth> the map in your screenie loses about 23 industries to towns 14:35:53 * andythenorth never thought about the implications of that 14:39:29 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6CDED.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:58:13 *** Celestar [~Celestar@fire3.tngtech.com] has joined #openttd 15:00:21 *** wicope [~wicope@0001fd8a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:25 <Alberth> How can GarryG merge TAI and FIRS? I thought you used all cargoes? 15:29:53 <andythenorth> heâs either getting lucky with overlapping cargos 15:30:04 <andythenorth> or itâs broken and he hasnât found that yet (heâs still testing) 15:30:32 <andythenorth> TAI is mostly default cargos 15:30:43 <andythenorth> and Full FIRS provides most of those 15:32:10 <Alberth> :) 15:35:50 <V453000> yapf.rail_doubleslip_penalty = 100 what is this? 15:37:21 <Alberth> ///< penalty for passing a double slip switch <-- thats the comment 15:37:40 <V453000> slip switch eh? :D 15:37:45 * andythenorth busy bee http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1149773#p1149773 15:38:02 <andythenorth> it really bothers about double slips? 15:38:16 <V453000> and yapf.rail_pbs_cross_penalty = 300 ? 15:38:47 <Alberth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_switch#Double_slip it actually exists :) 15:38:53 <andythenorth> yes :) 15:39:16 <andythenorth> on 2-rail DC electric trains, wiring one is a bit fiddly 15:39:29 <andythenorth> but thatâs my long-ago past :P 15:39:31 <V453000> hm 15:39:33 * andythenorth is not train kid anymore 15:39:40 <andythenorth> now I wire up pythons :P 15:39:48 <V453000> so the pahtfinder knows if my tracks are like |X| ? 15:39:56 <V453000> like the typical X at the front of terminus? 15:39:58 <andythenorth> yes 15:40:01 <andythenorth> seems to 15:40:13 <V453000> and the PBS cross is then what? :D same with PBS? 15:40:46 <Alberth> http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/file/686fd2b78068/src/settings_type.h#l361 15:42:18 <Alberth> hmm, that's npf 15:42:23 * andythenorth hmms 15:42:30 <andythenorth> eh, Iâll let you finish train things :P 15:43:00 <Alberth> http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/file/686fd2b78068/src/settings_type.h#l401 15:43:43 <Alberth> I have no clue about train things, compared to most other people here :) 15:43:55 *** Celestar [~Celestar@fire3.tngtech.com] has left #openttd [] 15:44:06 * andythenorth does 15:44:10 <andythenorth> but keeps it quiet :P 15:44:24 * andythenorth probably is most-train-thing of anyone here :P 15:44:29 <andythenorth> train-off? 15:44:37 <Alberth> train-ee :) 15:45:23 <Alberth> well, you do find very nice train and industry pictures, I very much enjoy those 15:46:31 <andythenorth> so, eh, should farms cluster at all? 15:47:20 <Alberth> it makes them different from other industries, which I think is good 15:47:58 <Alberth> truck or tram feeders are nicely feasible with them 15:48:24 <andythenorth> it leaves them unevenly distributed across the map 15:48:39 <andythenorth> maybe I just need to figure out how to get more clusters 15:49:09 <Alberth> reduce mult/div factor? 15:49:45 <Alberth> then it takes longer until you reach 1 15:50:02 *** supermop [~supermop@d210-49-171-146.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:50:14 <Alberth> ie add something to 'div' 15:50:44 <Alberth> make it a big number as a test :) 15:51:22 * andythenorth tests 15:52:06 <andythenorth> faster FIRS compiles => more FIRS development 16:03:51 <andythenorth> ok so 1/4 works better 16:03:55 <andythenorth> on a 512x512 map 16:04:00 <andythenorth> for limited number of tests :P 16:07:37 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:36:31 <__ln__> http://i.imgur.com/d4p0Orx.jpg 16:36:35 *** wicope [~wicope@0001fd8a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:43:42 <andythenorth> ha ha 16:43:45 <andythenorth> 2048x2048 maps 16:43:50 * andythenorth will ignore those 16:48:56 <peter1138> 4096x lol 16:50:36 <andythenorth> why would I even care where industries get built on a 2048x2048 map? 16:50:50 <andythenorth> I should stick em all within 128 tiles of the NE map edge :P 16:50:52 <andythenorth> for laughs 16:51:21 <V453000> XD 16:51:31 <V453000> good feature, I like it 16:51:59 <andythenorth> maybe thatâs the best placement rule for _all_ map sizes? 16:52:03 <andythenorth> what could go wrong? 16:52:07 <andythenorth> all processors on NE edge 16:52:12 <andythenorth> all primaries on SW 16:52:12 <Alberth> do it in the top-left 1024, and it works for all maps :p 16:52:54 <Alberth> I do hope I don't have a huge sea at the SW :p 16:52:59 <andythenorth> would be sad 16:55:48 * andythenorth generates more test maps 16:56:14 <andythenorth> so a dairy that is > 128 tiles from a farm producing milk 16:56:25 <andythenorth> whatâs the point? o_O 16:56:51 <andythenorth> there are 5 other dairies between this one and the nearest milk farms 16:56:55 <V453000> XD 16:57:03 <andythenorth> this kind of map gen bugs me 16:57:14 <andythenorth> especially when I get GS orders to provide cargo to it :) 16:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the problem 17:04:31 <andythenorth> itâs one of the cases where realism is a valid concern 17:04:54 <andythenorth> makes the map gen seemâŠdaft 17:08:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with "realism" as an argument is that people selectively choose the parts of "realism" that suit them and ignore the other parts 17:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> which stops it from being "realistic" in the first place 17:15:07 *** FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!] 17:18:58 <andythenorth> fails for me 17:19:09 <andythenorth> why would the game locate an industry youâre never going to serve? 17:21:31 <Alberth> interesting point, but how do you fix that? 17:22:41 <andythenorth> enforce max distance to source industry? 17:23:46 <andythenorth> every source-destination pair would need to do it 17:23:48 <andythenorth> meh 17:24:23 <Alberth> unless max distance is equal to size of the industry, I don't it would work 17:27:37 <Alberth> wouldn't it require a form of analysis to see if there are same industries "on the path" ? 17:28:22 <andythenorth> could be done by FIRS at compile time 17:28:29 <andythenorth> but yeah, unpleasant 17:28:44 <Alberth> hard-code layout :p 17:28:53 <andythenorth> ha 17:29:14 * andythenorth considers it 17:29:36 <Alberth> it fails on the first splash of water at the wrong place :p 17:30:09 <andythenorth> allow industries to raise land :P 17:30:29 <Alberth> neat, islands in the sea :) 17:30:40 <andythenorth> I wanted to do nitrate mine that way 17:30:43 <andythenorth> but canât raise land :P 17:33:25 * andythenorth invents complicated location rules 17:35:22 *** roidal_ [~roland@194-152-174-225.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 17:37:47 <andythenorth> nah 17:38:10 <andythenorth> those industries bug me htough 17:38:14 <andythenorth> though * 17:42:09 *** roidal [~roland@193-154-142-146.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're overengineering this 17:51:52 *** DDR__ [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: whatever placement rule you can come up with, it will fail when the order of industry construction is changed 17:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot check for industries that will be constructed later 17:59:15 *** DDR [~david@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 17:59:47 *** DDR_ [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd 18:02:53 *** APTX [~APTX@87-207-72-117.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:44 *** Biolunar_ [Biolunar@x5d82390c.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Yo.] 18:06:23 *** JacobD88 [~Thunderbi@cpc20-stap11-2-0-cust392.12-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 18:08:34 *** APTX [~APTX@87-207-72-117.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 18:09:09 <andythenorth> yes 18:09:23 <andythenorth> thatâs why Iâm not going to fix it 18:09:37 <andythenorth> itâs just going to bug me every time I see it :P 18:10:04 <andythenorth> any code I write will likely have unwanted side effects, at minimum it will increase map gen time 18:10:16 <andythenorth> at worst, pathological case, entire chains might go missing :P 18:19:05 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-147-178-81.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 18:29:30 * andythenorth must to motorways 18:29:31 <andythenorth> bye 18:29:33 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:29:42 *** DDR [~david@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: DDR is not Dance Dance Revolution.] 18:40:52 *** DDR_ [~David@S010600254bbe4e1c.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> do motorways have to bathe now as well? 18:52:08 <Alberth> we might never know 18:53:17 *** Cif [~cifvts@host85-58-static.12-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:12:23 *** Tirili [~chatzilla@kel30.kel.studentenwerk-goettingen.de] has joined #openttd 19:27:42 *** Pensacola [~quassel@c80094.upc-c.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:24 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 19:36:39 <Wolf01> o/ 19:41:14 <Taede> ello 19:52:13 *** Tirili [~chatzilla@kel30.kel.studentenwerk-goettingen.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [SeaMonkey 2.33.1/20150410200411]] 19:54:10 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 20:10:57 *** Klanticus [~quassel@179.234.179.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:14:08 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x5f7426b1.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 20:28:22 *** Cif [~cifvts@host85-58-static.12-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has left #openttd [Ex-Chat] 20:28:37 *** Cif [~cifvts@host85-58-static.12-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 20:29:29 *** Pereba [~UserNick@187.59.100.75] has joined #openttd 20:29:31 *** roidal_ [~roland@194-152-174-225.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1] 20:37:31 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6E3B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:44:28 *** Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2.221.246.223] has quit [Quit: To robbery, slaughter, plunder they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace.] 20:47:49 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A187BE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:49:04 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:53:28 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19534.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:53:39 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 20:55:45 *** Cif [~cifvts@host85-58-static.12-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:05:25 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 21:09:50 <andythenorth> motorways complete 21:20:14 *** Celestar [~Celestar@p4FD6E3B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #openttd [] 21:21:17 *** wicope [~wicope@0001fd8a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:27:56 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 21:27:59 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 21:29:01 <Wolf01> 'night all 21:29:04 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:33:03 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@x5d82390c.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 21:33:32 *** Progman [~progman@p57A187BE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:46 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has left #openttd [] 21:49:41 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] 22:01:41 *** qwebirc73658 [~oftc-webi@212.56.121.220] has joined #openttd 22:01:48 *** LadyHawk [~LadyHawk@5751e87a.skybroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:02:25 <qwebirc73658> hi all, i'm coming back to openttd after years and I was wondering if there was any work going on with cargodest? 22:16:29 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6AC3F.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:18:11 <Eddi|zuHause> check the settings that say "cargo distribution" 22:25:43 *** qwebirc73658 [~oftc-webi@212.56.121.220] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:58:28 <peter1138> gute nacht 23:03:32 <Eddi|zuHause> english only! 23:34:53 *** supermop [~supermop@d210-49-171-146.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd