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Log for #openttd on 12th February 2016:
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01:20:38  <evert> I'm trying out the the firs newgrf, but I'm missing how to transport "engineering supplies", there is no train type for it?
01:27:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you need a train set that supports it
01:29:30  <evert> local only, or will it need something on the server as well?
01:29:43  <evert> and, any suggestions for a good set to go with firs? :)
01:37:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it needs to be on the server and all clients
01:37:56  <Eddi|zuHause> also, a road set, and a ship set, and a plane set
01:39:37  <evert> ok, any suggestions for a good pack?
01:39:54  <evert> can I do it within the current game that's running on the server, or will it require a new game?
01:44:09  <Eddi|zuHause> adding grfs will require a new game
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08:10:39  <dihedral> greetings
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09:22:21  <Wolf01> o/
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11:54:56  <argoneus> ayy
11:57:06  <argoneus> anyone here plays chess?
12:03:38  <Wolf01> I know how to play
12:03:54  <argoneus> want to play a game?
12:03:57  <argoneus> i just started
12:03:59  <Wolf01> no
12:04:03  <argoneus> (
12:04:15  <argoneus> I need to play against people who won't facefuck me
12:09:56  <Wolf01> also I don't have any chess game installed
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12:10:59  <argoneus> Wolf01: I just give you a link
12:11:03  <argoneus> to an online chess place
12:11:05  <argoneus> where people play
12:11:08  <argoneus> you don't even need to register
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12:19:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the last chess program i had was the example program that came with Borland Pascal 7
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15:41:57  <andythenorth> o/
15:42:17  <Wolf01> o/
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15:56:03  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, it seem that if you stay far away from enemy ships you do more damage, at least I managed to do 3k-5k instead of 400-900 when in close range
15:56:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there is certainly a "too close" thing happening
15:57:01  <Eddi|zuHause> also, cannon alignment and stuff
15:57:19  <Wolf01> no, the lead balls bounces on the ship and don't give enough damage
15:57:33  <Wolf01> from far away the balls don't bounce
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16:14:27  <_johannes> Why does the Vehicle class have a next and a next_shared pointer?
16:14:39  <_johannes> (and functions to access those)
16:15:11  <_johannes> From the code, it says that shared vehicles seem to share the same train?
16:16:01  <_johannes> I could use Next(), NextShared() and GetNextVehicle() ...
16:16:11  <_johannes> so how to iterate over all vehicles of a train?
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16:32:45  <Wolf01> I think that shared stuff is meant for the orders/grouping, do you want to iterate over the wagons of a train?
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16:51:49  <Alberth> o/
16:52:41  <andythenorth> o/
16:54:06  <_johannes> Wolf01: yes
16:55:36  <_johannes> Alberth: can you please see http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/1455293667#1455293667 ?
16:55:41  <_johannes> hope I marked it right
16:57:09  <Alberth> hmm, and you think I know that? :p
16:57:19  <Alberth> did you check the depot display code?
16:57:34  <Alberth> that has to 'print' all wagons onto the screen
16:58:09  <Alberth> but my guess is Next()
16:59:02  <_johannes> hmm no I did not check that depot code, good idea
16:59:53  <Alberth> next_shared is to have a list of trains that share an order
17:00:30  <Alberth> so the order can just point to the first train
17:01:31  <_johannes> oh, wait, so Vehicle::next_shared can point to the first vehicle of the next train?
17:02:36  <Alberth> next train in the shared orders, I would hop
17:02:40  <Alberth> *hope
17:03:06  <_johannes> ok
17:03:16  <Alberth> it should skip trains that have a different order :)
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17:04:49  <Alberth> hmm, so there must be a way to find the last wagon too
17:05:13  <Alberth> no idea about that, depot code should be able to tell you
17:06:00  <Alberth> autoreplace could also work, but that code is more difficult
17:06:29  <Alberth> due to newgrf extensions :p
17:07:23  <_johannes> hmmm yes the depot could looks useful...
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17:11:25  <_johannes> the depot code uses FOR_ALL_VEHICLES
17:11:34  <_johannes> I feel dumb now :P
17:12:43  <Alberth> nah, it takes time to understand how to approach foreign code :)
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17:15:11  <Wolf01> lol, I managed to blow up a ship I had to capture...
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17:15:41  <Alberth> oops :)
17:15:55  <Wolf01> I do too much damage XD
17:16:07  <Wolf01> 8k with one volley
17:16:18  <Alberth> :)
17:17:26  <Wolf01> \o/ I can purchase a frigate now
17:17:37  <Wolf01> doubling the damage I do
17:17:43  <Alberth> lol :)
17:18:13  <Alberth> now find some more sturdy enemies :p
17:18:30  <_johannes> hmmm FOR_ALL_VEHICLES does not take a reference to the first vehicle of the train... does it iterate over all vehicles of the game? :-/
17:18:57  <Alberth> yes, all vehicles :)
17:19:15  <Alberth> isn't there a all_trains macro?
17:19:59  <_johannes> indeed...
17:20:01  <Alberth> train.h
17:20:01  <Alberth> 339:#define FOR_ALL_TRAINS(var) FOR_ALL_VEHICLES_OF_TYPE(Train, var)
17:20:40  <_johannes> well, that's still not good to iterate over all vehicles for each train
17:20:49  <_johannes> complexity n^2 :P
17:21:50  <_johannes> ok, the Vehicle::Next() worked!
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17:57:33  * andythenorth must to chores
17:57:42  <andythenorth> also 2 more industries left to draw
17:57:48  <Alberth> :o
17:58:09  <Alberth> oh, new economy of course, I thought you'd run out of IDs
17:58:46  <andythenorth> we have loads of IDs left now :)
17:59:18  <andythenorth> I’m at 76 out of 128
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17:59:40  <andythenorth> I would be surprised if I can push it above 100
17:59:46  <Alberth> oooh, 50 induestries to go :p
18:00:47  <andythenorth> the number of cargos provides an effective brake on number of industries
18:01:07  <andythenorth> at some point, industries start to repeat cargos, or are nonsense :)
18:01:13  <Alberth> yeah, you don't want too many industries
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18:02:19  <andythenorth> I think 40 is about right for a large economy
18:02:24  <andythenorth> and around 20 for a basic economy
18:03:06  <Alberth> but I guess design is different of both
18:03:18  <andythenorth> yup
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18:22:22  <Quatroking> if I replace trucks, will they automatically be refitted to the cargo they were holding?
18:23:24  <Quatroking> apparently so
18:23:25  <Quatroking> neat
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18:58:58  <_johannes> a Vehicle has a VehicleCargoList...
18:59:16  <_johannes> I give up trying to understand it...
19:00:32  <Alberth> you can have several cargoes loaded in a single vehicle, would be my guess
19:00:47  <Alberth> eg mail + passengers in a single wagon
19:00:58  <Alberth> but not sure about this
19:01:07  <_johannes> ahh...
19:01:55  <Alberth> it can also be a refit list, no idea at all how that works
19:02:16  <Alberth> ie when you select a wagon in the refit window, you get a list of refits you can use
19:02:39  <Alberth> that has to be stored somewhere too :)
19:03:45  <Alberth> or in the order "refit wagon to ..."
19:04:12  <Alberth> yep, mega-complicated, loads of stuff stacked on top of each other :)
19:04:31  <_johannes> hmm it has stuff like DaysInTransit()
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19:08:34  <_johannes> All these helpful comments :P
19:08:45  <_johannes> VehicleCargoList: CargoList that is used for vehicles.
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19:09:11  <Alberth> DaysInTransit is for computing payments
19:09:22  <Alberth> shorter transit times means more money
19:09:32  <Alberth> hoi
19:09:58  <_johannes> what does the term "cargo packets" mean?
19:10:09  <_johannes> why "packets"?
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19:10:20  <_johannes> is this refit-specific?
19:12:26  <_johannes> or is it like 1 unit of cargo? e.g. if a coal waggon carries "30 coal", it carries 30 packets?
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19:15:06  <_johannes> ahh I think that's it... a cargo packet is one unit, and it can be stored on a train or in a station
19:16:44  <Alberth> units of cargo are packed together as much as possible to reduce computations
19:17:25  <_johannes> you mean like "5 units are one packet" ?
19:17:54  <frosch123> no, all cargo of the same type, origin in the same place are one packet
19:18:13  <_johannes> ahh ok
19:18:31  <frosch123> all coal from station brunswig central in second wagon of train 123
19:19:04  <_johannes> ok clear...
19:19:58  <Alberth> loaded at the same time too ?
19:20:04  <frosch123> no
19:20:12  <frosch123> it has an average age
19:20:21  <Alberth> ah, makes sense
19:20:35  <_johannes> so the Vehicle::VehicleCargoList is the list of all packets currently stored in this Vehicle?
19:20:41  <frosch123> when cargo packets from same origin are merged, the average age is weighted according to amounts
19:20:51  <frosch123> _johannes: yes
19:33:49  <_johannes> frosch123: can you explain why vehicle has a next and a next_shared pointer?
19:33:58  <_johannes> next seems to be the next Vehicle in the train...
19:34:16  <frosch123> next is the next vehicle part in the same consist
19:34:26  <frosch123> in the easiest case the next wagon
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19:34:54  <frosch123> so, "next" links between vehicles in the same chain
19:34:57  <_johannes> a more difficult case?
19:35:19  <frosch123> "next_shared" otoh links between consists, which share orders
19:35:50  <frosch123> more difficult case would be articulated vehicles, which appear like one "wagon" to the user, but actualy consist of multiple parts
19:36:18  <frosch123> and also aircraft shadow and helicopter rotor are separate vehicles within the same consist
19:36:32  <_johannes> lol
19:36:59  <frosch123> for example a single vehicle part only carries a single cargo type
19:37:16  <frosch123> the mail compartment of aircraft is actually in the shadow vehicle part
19:38:23  <_johannes> ok, now if we have one order with two trains, then Vehicle::next_shared of the train 1, veh. 1 points to train 2, veh. 1?
19:38:28  <frosch123> anyway, you never use those pointers directly
19:38:28  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: each train is a chain, that is traversed via next. and each of these vehicle chains is connected at their head the next_shared. so shared vehicles are a chain of chains
19:40:21  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: yes. if you are at train N, vehicle 1, then next_shared will traverse to train N+1, vehicle 1. next will traverse to train N vehicle 2
19:40:49  <Eddi|zuHause> from train N vehicle M you can go next to train N vehicle M+1. but next_shared will never be valid for M>1
19:41:45  <frosch123> _johannes: take a look at ScriptVehicleList_SharedOrders::ScriptVehicleList_SharedOrders
19:41:45  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: ah ok, makes sense...
19:41:55  <frosch123> it iterates over consists which share orders
19:43:25  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: for things like this it's usually easier if you draw it
19:43:59  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: yeah it would be good if such a drawing would be in the docs :D
19:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: or graphviz it :p
19:45:04  <frosch123> docs never explain stuff that is used in dozen of similar incarnations throughout the code
19:45:29  <frosch123> you just don't explain the usage of std::vector whenever using it
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20:00:48  <andythenorth> well well well
20:01:24  <frosch123> look, it's the guy from greenland
20:03:06  *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd
20:04:37  <andythenorth> hmm
20:04:47  <andythenorth> how long until April 1st?
20:04:58  <frosch123> 4 weeks for me
20:05:42  <andythenorth> you have a special calendar? o_O
20:07:26  <frosch123> min_active_clients will stop the time on my computer
20:07:38  <andythenorth> ha
20:07:43  <Milek7> !wolfram days until april 1st
20:07:48  <Milek7> whops, wrong channel
20:08:22  <mikegrb> > 49 days
20:08:31  <mikegrb> from wolram alpha in my menu bar
20:08:56  <andythenorth> I need at least 5 of those for drawing 2 industries :|
20:09:00  <andythenorth> not sure where I’ll get them :)
20:10:51  <frosch123> did you look on ebay?
20:13:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you talk like there's going to be an openttd release that you have to catch up with
20:13:36  <andythenorth> that is true
20:13:39  <andythenorth> maybe there won’t be ?
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21:07:18  <andythenorth>  /me -> bed
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22:03:57  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:11:11  *** swiss [~oftc-webi@208.241.78.83.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined #openttd
23:11:30  <swiss> is sombody from switzerland?
23:12:26  *** swiss [~oftc-webi@208.241.78.83.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has quit []
23:13:45  <debdog> yes, swiss is
23:15:01  <Supercheese> No, but Schweitzer is the name of the local ski resort :P
23:17:45  <Supercheese> the anglicization seems to have added the explicit t in front of the z
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