Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:09:20 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 00:30:27 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 01:14:13 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 01:32:25 *** Guest3477 has quit IRC 01:32:59 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 01:49:55 *** ToBeFree has joined #openttd 01:55:26 *** ToBeFree has quit IRC 02:00:50 *** Biolunar_ has joined #openttd 02:02:29 *** moony has quit IRC 02:07:48 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 02:18:42 *** Rygrass has joined #openttd 02:20:43 <Rygrass> can someone tell me if autoclean_protected = True and Default is set to 36... does that mean that they are protected for 3 years of game time only ? 02:26:45 *** debdog has quit IRC 02:34:44 *** debdog has joined #openttd 02:52:25 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 02:53:04 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 02:59:09 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 03:06:11 *** Biolunar_ has quit IRC 03:14:23 *** glx has quit IRC 03:22:53 *** debdog has quit IRC 03:28:00 *** debdog has joined #openttd 03:30:30 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 03:50:56 *** debdog has quit IRC 03:53:54 *** debdog has joined #openttd 04:09:25 *** Cubey has quit IRC 04:15:07 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 04:46:15 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 06:12:30 <LordAro> Rygrass: that means that protected companies (those with a password set, iirc) will also be autocleaned 06:29:09 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:31:39 *** keoz has joined #openttd 06:41:04 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:21:46 <andythenorth> o/ 07:31:44 <Rygrass> cheers mate 07:37:08 *** blocage has joined #openttd 07:38:31 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 07:49:10 <dihedral> Hej Hej 07:52:20 <andythenorth> is dihedral :) 07:55:05 <dihedral> Yarp 07:57:37 *** keoz has quit IRC 08:03:08 *** mescalito has joined #openttd 08:22:42 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 09:11:59 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:33:45 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd 09:45:56 *** Celestar has quit IRC 09:54:47 *** Celestar has joined #openttd 10:18:23 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 10:39:15 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 11:29:21 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 11:32:59 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 11:46:06 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 11:46:10 <Wolf01> o/ 11:46:29 <Wolf01> ISP tested my line "your line can't handle the speed you are connected at" 11:47:24 <Wolf01> That's the main reason about my problems, the central blocks my connection because I'm too fast 11:49:08 <andythenorth> lo Wolf01 11:55:32 <V453000> yo 11:55:36 <V453000> andythenorth: tropic trees somehow 11:55:41 <andythenorth> yo 11:55:42 <V453000> got some ideas 11:55:47 <andythenorth> CACTI 11:55:51 <V453000> but basically same technique 11:55:58 <andythenorth> PINEAPPLES 11:56:00 <V453000> cacti will definitely be there 11:56:13 <V453000> generally the theme is overgrown plants 11:56:22 <V453000> rather than giant palms, but some of those too 11:56:26 <V453000> simply put, jungle as fuck 11:56:31 <V453000> haha almost rhymes 11:56:33 <V453000> iz poet now 11:56:51 <andythenorth> V453000: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jungle+is+massive&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwix75DUsfzVAhUjOsAKHcw2BkQQ_AUICygC&biw=1348&bih=781 11:57:02 <V453000> no. 12:09:01 <V453000> friend told me the noisiness of the ground doesn't really fit with the cartoony style of the trees 12:09:03 <V453000> he might be right 12:09:05 <V453000> fucking asshole 12:12:29 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 12:14:38 <andythenorth> :) 12:25:42 <FLHerne> I think he's right 12:56:08 *** blocage has quit IRC 12:57:13 *** blocage has joined #openttd 13:05:24 <V453000> idk, is he and how? solve? :D 13:06:52 <planetmaker> usually with acid, combined sulphuric and nitric acid. No left-overs ;) 13:07:07 <V453000> ? :D 13:07:15 <planetmaker> that solves the problematic person :P 13:07:39 <V453000> well :D 13:07:41 <planetmaker> (ok, that joke works better in German) :P 13:07:58 <V453000> what does planetmaker think? https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=199487 13:08:26 <V453000> trees fit with terrain Y/N? :) 13:08:43 <planetmaker> hm... the terrain is so monochromatic bleak :) 13:09:06 <planetmaker> looks like a scenery from an end-of-time movie :D 13:10:01 <planetmaker> but were the grass green... I think it would fit 13:10:59 <planetmaker> though I can see what your pal means with "too noisy in comparison with the trees". Not sure that matters really. You might try to make the patches on the ground bigger (like half or 1/3 of the frequency) 13:11:35 <planetmaker> I guess 1/3 of the noise frequency would fit better 13:11:58 <_dp_> or add more noise to the trees? 13:12:30 <V453000> I will be releasing 2 version with different grfid, one with green and one with gray land 13:12:55 <V453000> I am quite confident that the gray is a seriously good concept, it makes everything work with 8bpp palette, and that's something that I find extremely important 13:13:12 <V453000> so far to me 32bpp has a giant issue - people want to either replace everything or nothing 13:13:22 <V453000> I've been using brix with DB set and swedish rails, FIRS and so on 13:13:26 <Wolf01> +1 13:13:29 <V453000> and it fits perfectly fine thanks to the grayscale 13:13:40 <V453000> extra zoom isn't what breaks things, full RGB is 13:14:14 <__ln__> https://channel9.msdn.com/coding4fun/blog/Missed-Clippy-Hes-baaackkkk 13:14:32 <V453000> I'll try to play around with the noise, thanks for your feedback :) one of the plans is to have the trees get more noisy from the bottom with a gradient 13:15:34 <Wolf01> __ln__: holy shit... noooooo 13:15:52 <V453000> but yeah, if you want to use green grass, you will easily be able to just by using a different version ... since I Have parameters for disabling anything you want, you can get multiple different versions of BRIX with different grfIDs, and just combine what you want, green land, grayscale houses or whatever there is eventually 13:17:42 <_dp_> btw it looks a bid weird to me having such bright green trees above snowline 13:18:44 <Wolf01> Pines? 13:19:07 <V453000> well they are already darker since the tops aren't visible due to the snow 13:19:22 <_dp_> and below snowline having some autumn colors may not be a bad idea 13:19:29 <V453000> that's for sure 13:19:43 <V453000> some more oranges will definitely be there along with some lushy greens 13:19:47 <_dp_> pines aren't very bright 13:19:48 <Wolf01> That would mean having seasons too 13:19:50 <V453000> basically that's for grotwh stages 13:20:00 <V453000> growth* 13:20:28 <_dp_> also there is nothing with round canopy that stays green in winter afaik 13:20:39 <V453000> that's fine :P 13:25:48 * _dp_ looking at photos from my winter hikes 13:25:58 <_dp_> if anything pines are black in subarctic :p 13:27:02 <_dp_> actually black trees may look quite good with gray grass 13:28:09 <V453000> the plan isn't really to follow reality 1:1 :) 13:28:47 <_dp_> yeah, I noticed) 13:30:56 <V453000> I'm more trying to play with colour theory and the big picture, overall greens are the code colour of trees ... obviously naturally, but then if I want to apply that generally to all trees, I feel like it's fine to have it even for snowy trees etc, because it's their family code that puts them together 13:32:37 <andythenorth> trees are green 13:32:42 <andythenorth> skies are blue 13:33:02 <_dp_> I get but it just doesn't look like subarctic imo 13:33:17 <_dp_> and I've been to subarctic, I almost live there 13:33:24 <_dp_> it's dark and moody in winter 13:35:40 <_dp_> snow is beautiful in sunshine but trees stay dark 13:37:53 <V453000> your points are good 13:37:57 <V453000> I understand and basically agree 13:38:08 <V453000> just not sure if I want to put it in there, I probably will in some way 13:38:16 <V453000> but some way is very vague :P 13:38:43 <V453000> for example my water is super black, and that's not going to change either :P 13:40:10 <_dp_> black rivers are quite realistic if you ask me :p 13:40:58 <_dp_> unless covered with snow ofc 13:43:47 <_dp_> https://cs9.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2016/11/23/3/1479871131296496921.jpg 13:46:12 <_dp_> last time I've seen a river that's more blue than black was somewhere in Turkey I think :) 13:47:48 <milek7> hmm, rivers are green usually :> 13:48:19 <Wolf01> Greenish-blue 13:48:29 <Wolf01> At least the one of my town 13:48:52 <V453000> gg XD 13:48:53 <Wolf01> If you go to Rome, the river Tevere is brown 13:53:43 <blocage> maybe we should list color that river cannot be ? 13:54:48 <_dp_> rivers reflect a lot so they can technically be of pretty much any color 13:55:40 <blocage> _dp_, that's the point, list of color that river cannot be : [] ;) 13:56:24 <_dp_> I'm just saying that in subarctic they typically look very dark, almost black, at least where I live 13:57:54 <Wolf01> They look clear to azure here... what do you put into water? 14:00:06 <blocage> There is any tutorial about Window & widget in openttd ? 14:00:11 <Wolf01> :D 14:00:12 <_dp_> idk, mud, rust mb. There are lots of swamps here 14:00:29 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 14:00:41 <Alkel_U3> it depends on the chosen economy and thus on the kind of industrial waste that goes into the rivers 14:01:01 <andythenorth> FIRS should adjust river sprites eh 14:01:56 <blocage> Alkel_U3, you mean that in OTTD we should change the color of river based on surounding industry ;) ? 14:02:13 <Alkel_U3> yea, with mixing, too. Like when a river running from near a scrap yard meets output from a papermill :P 14:02:31 <Alkel_U3> blocage: it can't possibly be a bad feature :D 14:02:57 <_dp_> here it's not an industrial waste, just swamp water has brown color like a black tea 14:05:21 <Alkel_U3> oh, and mutated salamanders crawling out of the rivers and terrorizing nearby cities and sinking ships and displeasing Poseidon and... 14:09:45 *** Rygrass has quit IRC 14:17:35 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 14:17:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 14:17:56 <Alberth> o/ 14:18:00 <Wolf01> o/ 14:18:04 <LordAro> o/ 14:20:29 <andythenorth> lo Alberth 14:45:03 *** Wolf03 has joined #openttd 14:45:03 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3546 14:45:03 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 14:50:07 *** Guest3546 has quit IRC 14:54:03 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3547 14:54:03 *** Wolf03 has joined #openttd 14:54:03 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 14:55:10 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 14:56:15 <Alberth> hola 14:59:26 <frosch123> moi 15:00:06 *** Guest3547 has quit IRC 15:02:50 <andythenorth> also 15:02:54 *** Wolf03 has joined #openttd 15:02:55 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3548 15:02:55 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 15:06:05 <Wolf01> Meh, ISP removed the 4Mb cap I asked to put... now I'm connected at 4.8Mb and unstable connection 15:06:31 <frosch123> V453000: if the noise is too noisy, maybe try some pattern like https://i.pinimg.com/236x/00/a1/54/00a154350115a3713b975ef018f2c63f--cement-tiles-porcelain-tiles.jpg 15:08:07 *** Guest3548 has quit IRC 15:10:23 <_dp_> frosch123, that kind of looks like toyland :p 15:11:20 <frosch123> i think that also depends on the size of the pattern 15:12:12 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:13:22 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:15:06 <V453000> frosch123: :D hm 15:16:11 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3549 15:16:11 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 15:17:57 *** Guest3549 has quit IRC 15:31:01 *** blocage has quit IRC 16:18:13 *** FLHerne_ has joined #openttd 16:18:13 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 16:26:50 <andythenorth> what shall we break next? :) 16:27:00 <andythenorth> Wolf01: how is the NoTrees spec? o_O 16:27:31 <Wolf01> You should write that, I'm not good at specs 16:28:00 <Wolf01> I can help you gather info 16:28:04 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 16:28:43 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 16:30:49 *** Gja has joined #openttd 16:32:05 <andythenorth> ok, maybe later :) 16:37:36 *** Cubey has quit IRC 16:43:49 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:50:59 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 16:52:21 *** quiznilo has left #openttd 17:10:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 17:21:19 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 17:35:53 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:36:06 <andythenorth> o/ 17:37:03 <andythenorth> Wolf01: maybe, instead of NewThings 17:37:10 <andythenorth> we should close some more of the 400 FS 17:37:29 <Wolf01> Yes, it would be nice 17:37:44 <Alberth> how do we have nested groups in trunk? 17:37:57 <Alberth> ie how do you make them? 17:38:07 <Wolf01> Drag&drop iirc 17:38:22 <andythenorth> drag and drop 17:38:36 <Alberth> from "ungroiuped" trains to a new group, ok 17:38:41 <Alberth> but a sub-group? 17:38:47 <Wolf01> I used them in the past to group by city and then by line for pax trams 17:39:04 <andythenorth> Alberth: do you mean ‘why?’ ? :) 17:39:09 <Wolf01> Drag a group into another 17:39:17 <Alberth> :O 17:39:26 <Alberth> drag groups, let me try that :) 17:39:41 <Alberth> andy, I meant "how" :) 17:39:51 <andythenorth> ok :) 17:40:08 <andythenorth> train length indicators in UI :D 17:40:30 <Wolf01> :) 17:40:41 <andythenorth> isn’t it 17:40:41 <Wolf01> frosch shipped it ;) 17:41:23 <andythenorth> so should I be joining .dev or no? 17:41:27 <andythenorth> as per https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=62735 17:41:33 <andythenorth> ^ which needs an update anyway 17:42:28 <frosch123> .dev is deserted 17:42:35 <frosch123> also, see topic 17:43:02 <andythenorth> ok 17:43:25 <andythenorth> @seen Rubidium 17:43:25 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Rubidium was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 5 days, 22 hours, and 9 seconds ago: <Rubidium> sure 17:49:51 *** FLHerne_ has quit IRC 17:51:10 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:51:10 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:51:42 <andythenorth> likely this could use a refresh? https://wiki.openttd.org/Development_Documentation 17:52:13 <andythenorth> wiki needs a match taking to some of it https://wiki.openttd.org/Recent_and_Current_Developments 17:52:29 <andythenorth> every year, we burn about 50% of our work dev docs at christmas time 17:52:47 *** Gja has quit IRC 17:53:09 <andythenorth> eh, should wiki pages like this be preserved as history? https://wiki.openttd.org/Passenger_and_cargo_destinations 17:53:14 * andythenorth thinks burn it all 17:54:07 <frosch123> depends whether you want to link people to already explored stuff 17:54:12 <frosch123> or whether they shall reinvent the wheel 17:54:14 <andythenorth> 'history' 17:54:16 <andythenorth> 'vault' 17:54:20 <andythenorth> ‘archived' 17:54:28 <Alberth> planetmaker believes we should keep old stuff 17:54:33 <andythenorth> wiki must have a way to show editors/contributors? 17:54:40 <andythenorth> sorted by date + frequency? 17:54:52 *** cHawk has quit IRC 17:54:59 <andythenorth> I’m not sorting all the wiki crap out, but it’s housekeeping for a healthy project 17:55:01 <Alberth> someone will think it's needed 17:55:10 <andythenorth> $someone always wants to keep stuff 17:55:30 <frosch123> like your emails :p 17:55:43 <Alberth> maybe start with making the manual up-to-date-ish? 17:55:45 <andythenorth> I delete all my emails after 5 years statutory period 17:55:56 <andythenorth> I regret that about 4 times per year 17:56:00 <andythenorth> the rest of the time...not 17:56:39 <Alberth> as far as I am concerned, everything old can go 17:56:50 <andythenorth> +1 17:57:00 <andythenorth> presumably wiki has an admin role? 17:57:01 <Alberth> or get updated, if still relevant 17:57:04 * andythenorth would like admin role if so 17:57:28 <frosch123> we have a template for "history pages" 17:57:53 <frosch123> https://wiki.openttd.org/List_of_downloadable_32bpp_tars <- like here 17:58:02 <frosch123> pretty sure there is also a template for "out of date" 17:58:02 <andythenorth> oic :) 17:58:10 <andythenorth> we need a librarian or two 17:58:12 <frosch123> just add those and think of them as "closed" 17:58:13 <andythenorth> it’s not me 17:58:25 <andythenorth> but I wouldn’t mind trying to persuade people to do it 17:58:35 <andythenorth> I don’t mind sorting out stupid disputes either :P 17:59:15 <frosch123> there is nothing on the wiki, except kamnet with his newgrf catalogue, xussr and forum photo of the month 17:59:32 <frosch123> i don't think other stuff has seen updates in years 17:59:34 <andythenorth> hmm 17:59:42 <andythenorth> it’s still the best format for docs though? 17:59:51 <frosch123> what docs :p 18:00:00 <andythenorth> all the how-to-play stuff 18:00:06 <frosch123> the manual is done? 18:00:06 <andythenorth> I still learn stuff there sometimes :P 18:00:22 <frosch123> i considered writing a newgrf howto 18:00:46 <andythenorth> I didn’t know about the FISH port https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD 18:00:48 <andythenorth> :) 18:00:58 <frosch123> using all the stereotypes to make people sort themself into a usergroup 18:01:25 * andythenorth never likes wikis for docs 18:01:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: the windows version has this weird logo 18:01:28 <andythenorth> but anyone can edit 18:01:38 <frosch123> it's also why the windows version has 4(?) sprites more 18:01:43 <Alberth> very few actually do 18:01:53 <andythenorth> readthedocs? 18:01:58 <andythenorth> sphinx? :P 18:02:07 <Alberth> after github :p 18:02:08 <andythenorth> docs remain an unsolved problem 18:02:15 <Alberth> so we can merge things :p 18:02:38 <Alberth> markdown would perhaps work somewhat 18:02:46 <Alberth> light-weight enough 18:02:50 <frosch123> i do not see demand for anything more than the wiki provides 18:02:58 <frosch123> most people will watch some random yt guy anyway 18:03:29 <andythenorth> github renders md by default 18:03:31 <andythenorth> https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap 18:03:43 <Alberth> we'll just make a separate repo for the documentation 18:03:48 <andythenorth> not a bad idea 18:03:59 <andythenorth> pull requests 18:04:01 <frosch123> it is a bad idea though 18:04:08 <frosch123> manual is written by non-tech people 18:04:13 <andythenorth> it adds bureacracy 18:04:24 <andythenorth> and I have to lookup md syntax every time I use it 18:04:25 <Alberth> oh, speaking of web-ish things, do you have time/ideas for bananas2 ? 18:04:33 <Alberth> or rather website(N+1)? 18:04:34 <andythenorth> no / yes 18:04:39 <frosch123> prrety sure there was a feature list for bananas2 18:04:45 <andythenorth> I was thinking about that yesterday Alberth 18:04:52 <andythenorth> what does website do? 18:05:03 <andythenorth> there’s reasons it has to be in a big framework like django? 18:05:13 <frosch123> the reason was single sign on 18:05:18 <Alberth> let's first decide what it should do 18:05:27 <andythenorth> good idea 18:05:51 <andythenorth> - release announcements? (or on forums?) 18:05:52 <frosch123> now eints uses the same ldap, but you cannot use the same cookie for login 18:05:59 <andythenorth> - download? (or on forums?) 18:06:16 <frosch123> download via main page, since it redirects to mirrors 18:06:29 <frosch123> also, only automated stuff 18:06:31 <frosch123> nothing on forums 18:06:44 <andythenorth> - server lists (never noticed those before) 18:07:07 <andythenorth> oh we have a development page here as well 18:07:10 <frosch123> we link them all them time in this channel 18:07:18 <frosch123> it's the second most popular link in this channel 18:07:22 * andythenorth didn’t know we have a dev page on site 18:07:35 <andythenorth> our footprint is quite broad eh? :) 18:07:38 <Alberth> it's more a collection of links 18:07:40 <frosch123> whenever someone does not get mp to work, the site is to tell whether the problem is with server or with client 18:07:46 <milek7> maybe oauth2? 18:08:39 <andythenorth> oh lots of email addresses on contact 18:08:46 <andythenorth> in case I want to ask for feature requests 18:08:57 <frosch123> yes, they remain unanswered usually :p 18:09:38 <andythenorth> ok so what’s the minimum it could do? 18:09:51 <andythenorth> ‘download now’? 18:10:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pc8ux64xd?/pc8ux64xd <- a paste from earlier this year 18:10:40 <frosch123> anyway, the trend is to put everything in separate containers 18:10:52 <andythenorth> step 1: fix coop SSL :) 18:10:52 <frosch123> so independent bananas which uses central ldap is prefered 18:11:48 <andythenorth> do we actually need a website? 18:11:50 <Alberth> several small sites thus? 18:11:50 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 18:12:00 <frosch123> Alberth: like eints 18:12:25 * andythenorth should update eints eh 18:12:36 <frosch123> also bananas website independent of the content server, so similar to musa 18:12:42 <frosch123> or ottd client 18:12:59 <andythenorth> do we need a web client for bananas? 18:13:50 <frosch123> Alberth: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=61282 18:13:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: not for the user, but for the content creator 18:14:22 *** moony has joined #openttd 18:14:26 <andythenorth> I long wanted to put a better user client on it 18:14:29 <andythenorth> but I’m not sure 18:14:33 <andythenorth> TMWFTLB probably 18:14:40 <frosch123> it should allow editing the description, renaming stuff, setting compatible versions, setting stuff as "avaialble for new download" 18:15:02 <frosch123> the latter for different ottd versions, not just for the newest 18:15:57 <frosch123> also probably a better method to enter meta data 18:16:06 <frosch123> screenshots are a popular request 18:16:16 <andythenorth> how does a content creator client fit alongside musa? 18:16:18 <frosch123> more useful / predefined tags etc 18:16:23 <andythenorth> two methods for same result = daft? 18:16:36 <frosch123> musa is only for upload 18:16:40 <frosch123> musa cannot edit stuff 18:17:01 <frosch123> but ofc you can also write a better musa client 18:17:06 <frosch123> with some gui 18:17:21 <frosch123> s/better/non-tech person safe/ 18:17:25 <andythenorth> easiest gui would be a web app :P 18:17:31 <frosch123> see 18:17:40 <andythenorth> ha, start musa locally, serve it on localhost :P 18:17:42 <frosch123> musa was only written because http 1.1 upload fails for big files 18:17:43 <andythenorth> that can’t go wrong 18:17:48 <frosch123> actually, is that better in http 2 ? 18:18:23 <frosch123> or do we need some javascript frontend which uploads differently? 18:18:26 *** moony has quit IRC 18:18:28 <Alberth> some form of newgrf classification by topics would be useful 18:18:47 <Alberth> eg set of keywords, or tags 18:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> ftp... torrent... :p 18:19:27 <Alberth> telnet :p 18:19:29 <andythenorth> allegedly HTTP POST has no size limit in the protocol 18:19:35 <andythenorth> it’s a configuration option on the server 18:19:43 <andythenorth> according to Random People On SO https://stackoverflow.com/questions/5053290/large-file-upload-though-html-form-more-than-2-gb 18:19:50 <andythenorth> I didn’t read actual, real specs 18:19:59 <frosch123> Alberth: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/content2.png <- i tried the current tags somewhen 18:20:08 <frosch123> they show how the current gui fails 18:20:18 <andythenorth> tags always fail :) 18:20:19 <frosch123> people use "heightmap" and "2048" as tags 18:20:32 <frosch123> just because there is no proper filter for that 18:20:48 <frosch123> so, imho categories should be predefined and not user defined :p 18:21:00 <frosch123> well, admin-defined i guess 18:21:07 <andythenorth> librarian? 18:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that the whole point of tags, to provide filters where the default ones don't fit? 18:21:32 <andythenorth> kamnet manages here https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_List 18:22:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: my experience of running apps with community tagging is that it’s….a nice idea in theory 18:22:01 <frosch123> good point, that page only exists because neither bananas nor grfcrawler have that moderator support 18:23:00 <Alberth> indeed 18:23:06 <andythenorth> hmm 18:23:28 <Alberth> Eddi: You want all "eye-candy" grfs together, eg 18:23:35 * andythenorth always gets bored by the details of docs + librarian issues 18:23:39 <andythenorth> same at work 18:23:46 <Alberth> not sure that yuo make a classification covering enough 18:23:58 <andythenorth> make a decent environment for people to do creative work - programming, drawing, writing etc 18:23:59 <andythenorth> profit 18:24:21 <frosch123> also: a web-gui to compose a newgrf selection via some wizard-interface that prevents to stupidest things (like 2 industry sets),. and some export/import via clipboard into ottd 18:24:28 <andythenorth> bananas is easy: just put all grfs made by andythenorth at top 18:24:37 <andythenorth> and put all V453000 grfs at bottom 18:24:44 <frosch123> also permalinks to those newgrf-lists for sharing 18:24:47 <andythenorth> put a sort-order-toggle button on 18:24:49 <andythenorth> WIN 18:24:58 <frosch123> @calc 8*64 18:24:58 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 512 18:25:18 <frosch123> 512 hexdigit fingerprint? 18:26:29 <frosch123> Alberth: in summary, we need a supersed of current bananas, musa, grfcrawler and wiki-newgrf-site 18:26:59 <frosch123> (note that both bananas website and musa both have features which the other one does not have) 18:27:19 <frosch123> like only musa support multiple authors and dependencies with versions 18:27:29 <frosch123> while only website allows editing existing stuff 18:28:21 <andythenorth> I closed https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4149#comment14389 18:28:27 <andythenorth> should I reopen? :) 18:29:02 <frosch123> do you have a fidget spinner or fidget cube? 18:29:09 <Alberth> nah, you want a demo image 18:29:29 <Alberth> or a screenshot-ish something 18:29:42 <Alberth> preview of heightmap 18:30:12 <Wolf01> andythenort: what do you think? http://imgur.com/a/jlUxq 18:30:21 <Alberth> I don't care about preview of the same helicopter in all 8 directions :) 18:30:24 <frosch123> Alberth: preview of license :) 18:30:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: too many fidget spinners here already :P 18:30:50 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I think it’s interesting to rethink how that works 18:30:56 <andythenorth> the specific layout…dunno 18:30:57 <Alberth> preview of readme :) 18:31:06 <Alberth> Wolf01: spiffy! 18:31:09 <andythenorth> but it makes a more direct connection Wolf01 18:31:14 <andythenorth> that’s important 18:31:32 <Wolf01> The current UI is too much verbose, I would like more graphics 18:31:38 <andythenorth> +1 18:31:41 <Alberth> +1 18:32:02 <andythenorth> OS X has a totally pointless way to resize disk volumes, based on dragging rectangles 18:32:08 <frosch123> map preview with 10 unlabeled sliders? 18:32:15 <andythenorth> it’s less accurate than typing numbers in, but more fun 18:32:43 <Wolf01> Almost all the graphic partition tools have that 18:32:57 <Alberth> frosch123: do you have "palapeli" ? very interesting way to do a preview 18:33:20 <Alberth> it zooms at the position of the cursor 18:33:52 <andythenorth> hmm 18:33:58 <frosch123> google gives me toddler puzzles 18:34:14 <Wolf01> I played that one, once 18:34:23 <Alberth> it's an electronic puzzle solver 18:34:36 <andythenorth> something about openttd websites…I just can’t get excited about reworking them :P 18:34:36 <Alberth> or puzzle table, rather 18:34:46 <frosch123> ah 18:35:14 <frosch123> can they handle 5000 pieces and more? 18:35:27 <frosch123> might solve the space issues of my sister 18:35:32 <Alberth> don't know, never tried more than 450 or so 18:35:42 <Wolf01> If it works up to 15k pieces it's the right one for me 18:36:06 <frosch123> she refuses to do puzzles less than 5000 :) 18:36:28 <Alberth> and rigtlhy so, or you'd be done too quickly :p 18:36:29 <frosch123> 6000 is small, 10k is normal, 15k is big 18:36:59 <Alberth> I usually stick to up to 1K, long enough for me 18:37:21 <Alberth> but if you do it every day, I can see you want something bigger 18:37:42 <frosch123> well, 10k takes about 8 months or so 18:38:00 <frosch123> i guess some fun comes from the logistics :) 18:39:03 <Alberth> and searching for the right piece 18:40:22 <frosch123> oh, it's a kde game, i thought it was a webapp 18:40:42 <Wolf01> Meh, Travis CI trying to get me to use it... the only project I wanted to apply CI at is not compatible with Travis... 18:40:46 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 18:41:38 <andythenorth> hmm 18:41:52 <andythenorth> website stuff is probably too close to my actual work most days :P 18:41:54 <andythenorth> also... 18:42:05 <andythenorth> …how do we deploy our web apps? 18:42:18 <andythenorth> we have a large footprint, how are they pushed to production? 18:42:19 <Wolf01> Direct edit on production 18:42:24 <Wolf01> :D 18:42:52 <Wolf01> I was about to kill one of my bosses last time he did that 18:43:37 <andythenorth> we have a CMS with direct edits in production, but that’s different 18:43:41 <frosch123> how do you rotate pieces in palapeli? 18:44:19 *** blocage has joined #openttd 18:44:29 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 18:44:46 <frosch123> hmm, seems like all tiles are already oriented correctly 18:45:01 <frosch123> doesn't that spoil 3/4 of the problem? 18:45:12 <frosch123> or 1/2 18:46:06 <Alberth> you can configure that 18:46:22 <andythenorth> eh, reasons I don’t want to touch openttd web stuff: 18:46:27 <Wolf01> 4/5, on real ones you have to flip them top-bottom too 18:46:29 <andythenorth> 1. having to get the VM to do any work on it 18:46:32 <Alberth> vertical lines in the train depot ask to add a line at the far left too, doesn't it? 18:46:36 <andythenorth> 2. no reproducible build afaik 18:46:50 <andythenorth> 3. no documented route to production 18:46:54 <andythenorth> 4. too much stuff imho 18:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> strange, i closed my computer case, and the computer shut off... 18:48:03 <Alberth> you found the hidden power button! 18:48:48 <Alberth> andy isn't it just rows of data in a data base? 18:49:19 <Alberth> maybe I am over-simplifying things 18:50:01 <andythenorth> I think that’s a valid way to model it 18:50:05 <andythenorth> but still…which database 18:50:11 <andythenorth> how do I get the data for development? 18:50:15 <frosch123> Alberth: i left it out because there is also usually none on the right 18:50:21 <andythenorth> how do I buildout the right db locally? 18:50:30 <andythenorth> how do I test in dev/staging? 18:50:31 <frosch123> i tried, but it looked weird 18:50:37 <andythenorth> how do I push to production? 18:51:08 <Alberth> I'd just pick sqlite or so, then build something sort of proto 18:51:47 <Alberth> we may need som e path from there though, at some point we'll have to use/configure "real" systems 18:51:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: you do have the bananas vm :) 18:51:54 *** Gja has joined #openttd 18:51:57 <andythenorth> I do 18:53:28 <Alberth> but you don't need that all immediately 18:53:39 <Alberth> imho 18:55:39 <frosch123> this version of palapeli does not seem to support tile rotation 18:56:11 <frosch123> i consider this lack more than weird 18:56:27 <frosch123> are you sure that game was not written by some ai or alien 18:56:46 <frosch123> i can't imagine someone having done a physical puzzle to leave that out 18:57:00 <Alberth> quite :) 18:57:11 <Alberth> and with opengl, it's quite trivial to add 18:57:59 <frosch123> also i observed that children at age 2 can easily find the right piece, but have a hard time figureing out the rotation 18:58:05 <Alberth> I find it quite convenient without rotation :p 18:59:12 <Alberth> I have that too with left/right, especially when you look at the map while moving south :) 18:59:54 <andythenorth> so what’s broken about OpenTTD web stuff? 18:59:56 *** dustinm` has quit IRC 19:00:02 <andythenorth> other than list of bananas features from frosch123 19:00:07 <Alberth> old, aged, mostly 19:01:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: bananas is the most custom thing we have 19:01:25 <frosch123> everything else is kind of standard which you can also get elsewhere 19:02:16 <andythenorth> can we just move it all to commodity services? 19:03:30 <Alberth> what I don't get with the first patch in 6053, why isn't the engine count updated recursively? 19:03:37 <Alberth> yet it works 19:04:02 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 19:06:14 <Alberth> uint GetGroupNumEngines(CompanyID company, GroupID id_g, EngineID id_e) :O it's computed 19:06:52 *** dustinm` has joined #openttd 19:08:39 * andythenorth wonders about commodity bananas :P 19:09:05 *** Gja has quit IRC 19:09:17 <andythenorth> “open source DLC server” got me nothing useful 19:10:07 <Alberth> apache http server :p 19:12:10 <andythenorth> reading json from disk 19:12:12 <andythenorth> job done 19:12:34 <andythenorth> jquery onload() puts the json in the DOM 19:13:25 <andythenorth> or we could build something nice, around established libraries, with a continuous deployment pipeline 19:13:29 <andythenorth> :P 19:17:48 <Alberth> something simple at least would be useful for prototyping 19:18:30 <andythenorth> these days I tend to disagree 19:18:48 * andythenorth has spent 7 years sanitising a web development environment 19:19:26 <andythenorth> it’s preferable, on balance, to work backwards from ‘how will we deploy this' 19:19:46 <andythenorth> and start with tools that can deploy ‘hello world’ 19:19:54 <andythenorth> the prototype *always* becomes production 19:19:57 <Wolf01> andythenorth: as you mentioned jquery, how do I cycle the children nodes? I think I'm a special kind of stupid as I was used to do it daily and now I don't remember even how to make a plugin 19:20:25 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I have NFI, I only use jquery under protest 19:21:07 <andythenorth> ;) 19:21:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: I tend to prototype with static html, or a chameleon compile from ‘fake’ python objects 19:22:32 <andythenorth> database stuff tends to be the least important aspect of small web apps 19:22:46 <andythenorth> and it’s common now to use an ORM 19:23:00 <andythenorth> so prototyping with an actual db is a bit overkill 19:23:21 <andythenorth> my opinion is not universally supported :P 19:24:02 <andythenorth> in my world, SQLAlchemy won 19:24:14 <andythenorth> backed by postgres, usually 19:24:55 <andythenorth> one selling point of an ORM is that it can be swapped 19:25:01 <andythenorth> it / the db /s 19:25:31 <andythenorth> so can start with sqlite, and migrate / refactor to postgres etc later 19:27:25 * andythenorth now lost in ORM reviews :P 19:29:48 <_dp_> why not just start with postgres? 19:30:10 * andythenorth doesn’t know 19:30:18 <andythenorth> people like sqlite? 19:31:03 <Wolf01> Why not start with a proper software structure which allows to swap components without changing the code? 19:31:37 <andythenorth> like an ORM o_O 19:31:39 <Wolf01> Like... do it with symfony 19:32:08 <_dp_> isn't symfony php? 19:32:14 <Wolf01> Yes 19:32:16 <andythenorth> that is the downside yes 19:32:18 <blocage> I like to be away from web programming 19:32:52 <andythenorth> web programming is like...work 19:33:00 <andythenorth> unlike OpenTTD :P 19:33:24 <Wolf01> It might still be a shitty language, but developers reduced fragmentation and enhanced the sharing of pre-existing code 19:34:06 <andythenorth> actually I am +1 to moving OpenTTD web platform to PHP 19:34:18 <andythenorth> then I won’t feel any guilt about not working on it 19:34:24 <Wolf01> So you only need to make customizations and all the core is well mantained, secure and compatible with every other project 19:35:42 <frosch123> hmm, so what to use for a puzzle? 19:35:50 <frosch123> ottd screenshot or ottd sourcecode? 19:36:57 <Wolf01> Sorting out ottd sourcecode puzzle might help on closing FS tasks 19:37:35 <blocage> there is a web openttd ? 19:38:06 <Alberth> frosch123: website with wallpapers? 19:38:09 <frosch123> yes, someone crosscompiled it via llvm to javascript 19:38:34 <blocage> frosch123, funny 19:38:46 <frosch123> playttd.com or something 19:38:53 <Alberth> blocage: it's true 19:39:17 <frosch123> whenever people port sdl1 to something, they port ottd next 19:39:33 <blocage> Alberth, still funny :) 19:39:42 <blocage> https://epicport.com/en/ttd 19:39:43 <Alberth> it is indeed 19:39:44 <_dp_> as the only game that still uses it? :p 19:40:00 *** _3298 has joined #openttd 19:40:24 <Alberth> as one of the few games that didn't switch to opengl stuff :p 19:41:07 <andythenorth> so what does Bananas actually do? 19:41:18 <andythenorth> it was described to me as ‘horrible’ more or less 19:41:27 <andythenorth> and phenomenally complicated 19:41:33 <andythenorth> which is…unappealing 19:42:05 <Alberth> probably dependency stuff between assets 19:42:16 <Alberth> and messing with version numbering :p 19:44:06 <andythenorth> this is how all idiots fall on their face... 19:44:11 <andythenorth> …but it doesn’t seem very complicated 19:44:19 <andythenorth> there should be a tree of assets 19:44:25 <andythenorth> we need to serve them up when requested 19:44:53 *** blocage has quit IRC 19:45:07 *** blocage has joined #openttd 19:45:35 <andythenorth> _probably_ it can just key on the grfid, without any need for a graph or anything silly 19:45:55 <andythenorth> where is the code? :P 19:46:08 <Alberth> no idea 19:46:12 <andythenorth> https://git.openttd.org/?p=extra/website.git;a=summary 19:46:14 <andythenorth> ? 19:46:17 <_dp_> grfid+version at least 19:46:39 <Alberth> hashtag, probably :) 19:46:43 <andythenorth> version is what you need a tree for 19:46:49 <andythenorth> each tree is rooted on a grfid 19:46:55 * andythenorth uses big compsci words :P 19:46:57 <_3298> <Alberth> uint GetGroupNumEngines( -snip- ) :O it's computed <-- it is, except there's one place (in autoreplace) where that's not used. fix is in FX#5978 with a few other tiny autoreplace-related things 19:47:21 <andythenorth> each leaf on the tree probably corresponds to some combination of savegame compatibility / other stuff 19:47:42 <Alberth> sorry _3298, but I am tired, leaving for bed soon 19:48:01 * andythenorth same 19:48:04 <Alberth> but post in the issue, so I can read it later 19:48:05 <andythenorth> tiring Monday :P 19:48:23 <_3298> okay, will answer in an FS comment then 19:48:25 <andythenorth> Tuesday-is-Monday in UK this week :P 19:48:31 <Alberth> hmm, you should try to sleep every 24 hours, you know? :p 19:49:16 <_3298> just thought i'd address that thing i saw while reading the logs as usual 19:49:20 <Alberth> ah, some day off :) 19:49:37 <Alberth> _3298: yeah, it's good that you note 19:49:59 <Alberth> I just fail to keep that in memory at this time :p 19:52:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: so how do I put point my OpenTTD at bananas-staging.openttd.org? o_O 19:52:42 <andythenorth> -put :P 19:56:01 <frosch123> there is a patch in the vm 19:56:18 <_3298> just one question: what do you mean when you say "what doesn't get changed is current profit"? 'cause in GroupStatistics there's only profit_last_year 19:57:44 <_3298> if you mean the one displayed in the group info panel, that's calculated on the fly (together with occupancy), i.e. nothing i need to touch 19:57:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: it was a straw man question, but you actually patched that far? 19:58:08 <frosch123> yes 19:58:17 <frosch123> i patched everything except the master server 19:58:33 <frosch123> the master server is mysql magic which cannot be directly ported to postgres 19:59:02 <frosch123> like half of it is coded in sql functions with mysql syntax 20:01:28 <frosch123> now idea who is responsible for that :p 20:01:48 <frosch123> possibly there is also cobol from 1960 in there 20:03:43 <andythenorth> you’re not selling me on touching it :( 20:03:56 <andythenorth> can we persuade TB to reimplement it all from scratch? o_O 20:04:01 <andythenorth> he likes that kind of thing 20:04:54 <Alberth> _3298: the point is, you didn't touch it and it works. So why did the things you did touch not work? 20:05:19 <Alberth> and those things that did work, do they use the same mechanism? 20:05:42 <Alberth> engine counts doesn't seem to do that at least 20:06:22 <Alberth> if at all possible, I would prefer a single system for everything, as it makes changing and updating code simpler in the future 20:08:34 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:08:44 <Alberth> having different mechanisms to do the same things for different variables is confusing in all sorts of ways 20:08:51 <Alberth> nn 20:08:57 *** Alberth has left #openttd 20:09:18 <Wolf01> So the connection seem stable with just 6db SNR... 20:09:32 <Wolf01> Mistery... 20:27:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: ok, later in the week I try and motivate self to look at bananas :) 20:28:40 <frosch123> well, it would already be good if someone wrote something down 20:28:51 <frosch123> instead of restarting the discussion from scratch every 6 months 20:29:19 <andythenorth> we have the dev docs in wiki? 20:29:30 <andythenorth> or do you mean a spec for improvement? 20:29:59 <frosch123> i guess a list of what is bad, what is good, and what is missing 20:30:12 <andythenorth> roadmap? :P 20:30:20 <frosch123> and after that some rough layout 20:30:40 <frosch123> note: "i do not understand the old thing, let's rewrite it" is no solution 20:30:53 <andythenorth> +1 20:31:05 <andythenorth> that’s one reason I don’t want to touch any web stuff :P 20:31:14 <frosch123> every beginner seems to default to "let's rewrite it" 20:31:37 <andythenorth> it’s a bad argument to say “I have been doing this for x years” 20:31:37 <andythenorth> but 20:31:50 <andythenorth> I have been doing web dev for close to 20 years 20:32:00 <andythenorth> and the problem is not usually writing new code 20:32:13 <andythenorth> the problem is usually deploying it to production, stably, repeatably 20:32:46 <frosch123> my apprentices always tend to ask "can we rewrite this" when they do not understand this 20:32:59 <andythenorth> it’s like codeless code eh? :) 20:33:06 <frosch123> while the higher-level understanding is actually a pre-requisite for rewriting 20:33:36 <andythenorth> https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ 20:33:44 <andythenorth> ^ we literally did that and burnt a whole company 20:33:58 <frosch123> well, it's not even that type of rewrite 20:33:58 <andythenorth> despite 3 or 4 people had probably read that article and similar 20:34:31 <frosch123> it's more like: i need to change the caption of this label, but i do not know how the label is set in this source, can i rewrite the whole business logic? 20:35:07 <andythenorth> there is usually framework-de-jour which can be proposed as a solution also 20:35:14 <andythenorth> “this is hard, we need to switch to x" 20:35:18 <frosch123> it's like "i do not understand pyramid, can i rewrite firs with php?" 20:37:00 <andythenorth> how do you deploy upgrades to bananas? 20:37:12 <andythenorth> I have one patch in production, I think r*bidium did it 20:37:21 <andythenorth> it seemed painful 20:37:39 <frosch123> svn up; /etc/init.d/apache restart ? 20:37:46 <frosch123> no idea, only guessing :) 20:38:11 <frosch123> i think the problem was that the web container cannot see the svn container or something 20:38:20 <andythenorth> dangerous to test live eh? :) 20:39:59 <frosch123> that was the idea for the vm 20:40:10 <frosch123> i also tested everything eints related in a vm 20:40:25 <frosch123> even had a ldap setup for that 20:40:32 <frosch123> and that was a pita 20:41:18 <andythenorth> :| 20:42:20 <frosch123> albert always tested locally 20:42:28 <frosch123> but i consider a vm actually easier 20:42:32 <frosch123> you have the real environment 20:42:45 <frosch123> and with ssh + sshfs, working on it is the same as locally 20:43:11 <andythenorth> I never worked on vms 20:43:16 <andythenorth> often proposed, never implemented 20:43:27 <andythenorth> also docker proposed often 20:43:31 <andythenorth> and vagrant 20:43:48 <frosch123> i am learning docker currently 20:43:58 <frosch123> since tb gave me those scripts 20:44:12 <andythenorth> docker is moderately more interesting to me 20:44:27 <andythenorth> it’s hard to be interested in the web openttd 20:44:42 <andythenorth> seems like nothing new to learn, and a half-assed environment to fight against :) 20:44:53 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:45:07 <andythenorth> usually I learn a lot from openttd, take it back to work context 20:45:10 <frosch123> anyway, i have 60gib of vm images on my disk 20:45:24 <andythenorth> I might need to d/l them again, I had to migrate laptops 20:45:31 <frosch123> i always use vm to test stuff instead of messing up the host system :) 20:46:53 <frosch123> docker would take less space 20:47:07 <frosch123> but is restricted to same kernel 20:47:22 <frosch123> which is find for me, but maybe not for you 20:47:31 <frosch123> i.e. no linux docker on osx 20:47:42 <frosch123> no win docker on linux 20:47:57 <andythenorth> run docker in virtualbox in a VM :P 20:48:06 <andythenorth> for really sucky performance, and extra networking hassle 20:48:11 <frosch123> i am doing that 20:48:20 <frosch123> i do not install docker on my main machine just for playing 20:48:24 <frosch123> i have docker in a vm 20:48:32 <andythenorth> docker seems like FreeBSD jails 20:48:37 <frosch123> and yes, to run win coker on linux you need a windows vm 20:48:58 <andythenorth> I never looked further into docker, except for reading some satire about naive JS developers who think it provides container security 20:49:04 <frosch123> docker is chroot with the chroot-contents versioned in git or something 20:49:25 *** Wolf03 has joined #openttd 20:49:25 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3571 20:49:26 <frosch123> like when building the container, every step is stored in some repository 20:49:29 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 20:49:40 <Wolf01> Yeah, disconnected 20:49:44 <andythenorth> so it’s repeatable 20:49:44 <frosch123> so you can replace some change in the middle and it can rebuild the rest from some intermediate state 20:50:10 <frosch123> like as if your whole vm data is stored in a vcs 20:50:18 *** FLHerne_ has joined #openttd 20:50:26 <frosch123> you install some new thingie, and rollback in the vcs 20:50:43 <frosch123> or you rebase stuff etc :p 20:51:13 <frosch123> anyway, that's my impression after a few hours looing into it 20:51:17 <frosch123> may be totally off :p 20:51:25 <andythenorth> how do we manage production machines? is it puppet or ansible or something? 20:51:32 <andythenorth> is that a TB black art? 20:51:45 <frosch123> eints is setup with ansible 20:51:53 <frosch123> the rest is setup with whatever was hip at the time 20:52:10 <frosch123> like the masterserver is from a php/mysql/perl age 20:53:05 <frosch123> i believe eints is the only thing setup via ansible 20:53:30 <frosch123> the new compile farm is supposed to use docker 20:53:34 <frosch123> the old one does not 20:53:53 <frosch123> i believe the old one has a dozen linux vms, all manually setup 20:54:11 <andythenorth> we adopted ansible at work, and things got better 20:54:14 <andythenorth> 2 years ago 20:54:30 <andythenorth> we also built a continuous deployment tool of our own 20:54:44 <frosch123> no idea, i never used it, i only hear admins talking about it 20:55:06 <andythenorth> same, although I read the docs when we adopted it, kind of my job :P 20:55:09 <frosch123> i then match what admins at work talk abuot with what tb or rb ramble about 20:55:13 *** Guest3571 has quit IRC 20:55:22 <frosch123> and then derive how state-of-the-art the stuff at work may be 20:56:00 *** blocage has quit IRC 20:58:37 <andythenorth> continuous deployment is, simplifying, a scheduled cron job that looks for new tags, and upgrades the app if it finds one 20:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so, you mean autoupdate 20:59:11 <andythenorth> ours can distinguish RC tags for staging from production tags for live 20:59:46 <andythenorth> it has to know how to manaage supervisord to stop, restart processes in right order 20:59:56 <andythenorth> and how to run any upgrade steps for databases etc 21:00:16 <frosch123> i hope you are not suggesting automatic deployment for the ottd website, so we are really fast when there is a change very few years :p 21:00:18 <andythenorth> it also has rules to not make upgrades in certain time windows, e.g .weekends 21:00:27 <frosch123> *every 21:00:31 <andythenorth> website could be done with static html 21:00:38 <andythenorth> just cut out any framework crap :P 21:01:06 <andythenorth> continuous deployment encourages small, frequent releases by removing pain of going to production :) 21:01:10 <LordAro> ansible is lovely 21:01:12 <frosch123> says the firs author :p 21:01:14 <LordAro> *once* you get it setup 21:01:20 <LordAro> takes a bit of time to get to that point 21:01:30 <andythenorth> FIRS nearly has continuous deploy :) 21:01:42 <andythenorth> if I could teach bundles about musa :P 21:01:50 <frosch123> i was refering to static html and frameworks :) 21:02:05 <andythenorth> no framework in FIRS :) 21:02:10 <frosch123> we have multiple newgrf and gs with "make bananas" 21:02:30 <frosch123> i am sure you can also python-generate some of it 21:02:34 <andythenorth> we do don’t we 21:02:39 <andythenorth> hmm 21:03:10 <andythenorth> I could even automate the forum post, if I gave it my creds :P 21:03:12 <andythenorth> might not do that 21:03:24 <frosch123> LordAro: i guessed the correct power of two to setup the harddisk in my docker vm 21:03:30 <frosch123> i am proud of that :p 21:03:46 <frosch123> set hdd to 16gib, 11 were used 21:04:12 <LordAro> heh 21:04:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: all the "make bananas" require interactive username and password :) 21:04:22 <LordAro> docker is not lightweight 21:04:32 <LordAro> might be interesting to look into lxc/lxd containers 21:04:39 <LordAro> they're only pure linux though 21:04:47 <frosch123> LordAro: well, i just ran tb's stuff unmodified, so it setup 6 debian and 8 ubuntus or something 21:05:51 * andythenorth must to bed 21:05:52 <andythenorth> bye 21:05:53 <LordAro> ah, right 21:05:56 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 21:05:57 <LordAro> probably not so bad 21:06:26 <frosch123> i could have commented them out, if i cared :) 21:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i found a bunch of old computers at work, which might be athlon 64 (single or dual core) 21:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> think i could do anything useful with those? 21:09:32 <LordAro> i very much doubt it 21:09:50 <frosch123> depend on their case 21:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> tower 21:09:58 <frosch123> maybe you can sit on them 21:10:05 <LordAro> :D 21:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause> questionable :p 21:11:04 <frosch123> also metal stuff is good for emp protection 21:11:24 <frosch123> you know, your neighbors with those parabolic antennas 21:11:47 <frosch123> you never know when they only listen, or when they shoot 21:16:14 *** FLHerne_ has quit IRC 21:16:31 *** FLHerne_ has joined #openttd 21:16:36 <planetmaker> frosch123, andy: we considered once to actually implement a auto-deployment / upload to bananas on devzone 21:16:41 <planetmaker> But decided against that... 21:16:56 <planetmaker> for whatever reason. Probably "people would want to check their upload" 21:17:30 <planetmaker> the idea was that people allow via musa a devzone account to update their stuff as well 21:18:34 <planetmaker> it likely is easy to setup... if there's a market and use for that... not sure 21:19:03 <planetmaker> I guess it would need more automatic project generation / setup for that to be a thing 21:19:21 <planetmaker> or did move things / repos already to github anyway? 21:20:02 <frosch123> andy and xuusr are the only active projects :) 21:20:34 <frosch123> grfauthors are not tech-safe, so are unlikely to move to github 21:23:03 <frosch123> it's more likely that no-vcs becomes more popular with them 21:23:07 *** Progman has quit IRC 21:27:37 <planetmaker> yeah, I guess so... 21:27:50 <planetmaker> it always was and probably always will 21:28:30 <planetmaker> until there's a complete web-frontend to making / building NewGRFs where they can just upload their graphics files, edit some text file and have the system generate the grf from taht 21:28:39 <planetmaker> that might make them use it - without noticing 21:31:58 <frosch123> though andy transitioned to fs-moderator instead of working on grf :p 21:36:55 <LordAro> frosch123: help i'm looking at what's been deprecated and removed from django over the last 7 years 21:37:26 <frosch123> do you have the vm? 21:37:33 <LordAro> nah 21:37:38 <LordAro> just looking 21:37:40 <frosch123> it updated it to django as of 2011/12 at least 21:37:41 <LordAro> for now :) 21:39:01 <frosch123> in other words, wrt. django the vm is newer than the life site 21:39:28 <LordAro> heh 21:39:37 <LordAro> probably needs large amounts of rewriting regardless 21:39:56 <frosch123> well, tbh i would focus on bananas 21:40:01 <frosch123> it does not need to be django 21:40:07 <frosch123> it can be whatever, like eints 21:40:33 <frosch123> we only use django for the news items i guess :p 21:41:56 <LordAro> ooh, python with tabs 21:42:01 <LordAro> scary 21:42:23 <frosch123> tabs are for smart people :p 21:42:34 <LordAro> usually i agree 21:42:37 <LordAro> but not with python 21:42:54 <frosch123> python punished people who do not know whitespace :) 21:47:42 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 21:54:14 <Wolf01> Should I try docker? 22:08:06 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 22:13:41 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:14:55 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 22:29:08 *** mescalito has quit IRC 22:29:39 *** _3298 has quit IRC 22:46:32 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 22:51:43 *** debdog has quit IRC 22:54:29 *** debdog has joined #openttd 23:01:17 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 23:08:35 *** Wolf03 has joined #openttd 23:08:35 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3581 23:08:35 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 23:12:27 *** Guest3581 has quit IRC 23:16:36 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:19:55 *** namad7 has joined #openttd 23:23:12 *** namad7 has quit IRC 23:29:48 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC