Log for #openttd on 25th April 2018:
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06:18:32  <andythenorth> ca va?
06:18:52  <peter1138> oui oui, ca va
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06:26:33  <V453000> yo
06:29:43  <Eddi|zuHause> comme ci comme ca
06:29:45  <Pikka> yoyo
06:30:14  <V453000> I made discovery
06:30:35  <V453000> returning to my python automation after 4 months makes it a huge pain to remember how exactly was it used :D
06:30:48  <V453000> -> making ultimate drag&drop full automation now :>
06:31:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the trick there is actually DOCUMENTING how it's meant to be used :p
06:31:28  <V453000> you drop a blender sequence folder, it spits out 32 and 8bpp spritesheets including 8bpp masks :)
06:31:35  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause, or that :D
06:31:50  <V453000> but I think in this case it's simply not versatile enough overall
06:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> but making a script work on a folder you drag onto it, should be easy
06:33:34  <Eddi|zuHause> just read sys.argv[1]
06:33:40  <V453000> exactly :)
06:33:52  <V453000> already got 2 working
06:33:56  <V453000> 2 more to go
06:34:31  <andythenorth> bonjour Pikka bob
06:35:10  <Pikka> wotcha
06:36:33  * andythenorth must train names
06:36:39  <andythenorth> the steam trains are all named sensibly :P
06:37:06  <andythenorth> the diesels use silly basher nicknames, from the internet
06:37:10  <andythenorth> so might not even be real gen
06:38:05  <andythenorth> I tried 'Zebedee' for the class 90, but looks daft
06:39:45  <Pikka> mmm, sensible
06:40:43  <V453000> 'Slug'
06:40:49  <Pikka> I realised last night that the only reason I don't spell out "English Electric" is that Chris Sawyer didn't. So now i do.
06:41:11  <V453000> is English electricity different than the rest of the world? :P
06:41:16  <andythenorth> V453000: there is a refurbed Slug, Slug 2
06:41:22  <andythenorth> 'Slug Infinity'
06:41:26  <andythenorth> 'Slug 4 Eva'
06:41:27  <andythenorth> ?
06:41:39  <V453000> There may be only one :P
06:41:41  <Pikka> obviously, V
06:42:22  <andythenorth> 'Slug Resurrection'
06:42:33  <andythenorth> what can I call the 59?
06:42:40  <andythenorth> that is also a 60 and 66
06:42:50  <V453000> 59: Almost slug
06:43:10  <andythenorth> More Than Slug
06:43:51  <Pikka> '59'? I thought these were fictional ;)
06:44:05  <Pikka> I called it a Yeoman in my tracking table, before I displaced it for the 60
06:44:07  <V453000> andy derailed into realism
06:44:08  <V453000> G_G
06:44:30  <andythenorth> it's a 3,600 HP, 90MPH engine that happens to look like a 59 :P
06:44:38  <andythenorth> and is built in 1990
06:44:55  <andythenorth> considered "Smash Train"
06:45:54  <andythenorth> "Space Oddity"
06:46:03  * andythenorth still listening to Bowie
06:46:13  <V453000> MaxSpeedAssThunder
06:46:28  <andythenorth> "EuroTurtle" will have to be "BrexitTurtle" now
06:46:35  <V453000> xd
06:46:44  <andythenorth> or "we won nya nya nyah nyah remoaners Turtle"
06:46:52  <V453000> honestly giving your vehicles animal names sounds good to me
06:46:56  <andythenorth> yes
06:46:59  <V453000> the grf is called horse after all
06:47:02  <andythenorth> that is mostly the theme
06:47:05  <Pikka> something american for the 59, then?
06:47:09  <V453000> I like that theme
06:47:14  <Pikka> groundhog?
06:47:22  <Pikka> skunk? coyote?
06:47:37  <V453000> railhog? :P
06:47:41  <Pikka> moose. Iron Moose!
06:48:03  <V453000> AnotherBox
06:48:12  <andythenorth> Big Moose
06:48:19  <andythenorth> Buffalo Soldier
06:48:26  <andythenorth> Born In The USA
06:48:33  <andythenorth> Black Bear
06:48:42  <andythenorth> think I already did Grizzly somewhere
06:49:41  <andythenorth> sad fact of community management
06:49:47  <andythenorth> when community is more active and happy
06:49:57  <andythenorth> more lunatics rock up and want to join in
06:50:07  <andythenorth> then it's less happy
06:50:17  <V453000> :D wot
06:50:20  <andythenorth> forums innit
06:50:37  <V453000> I was considering starting a new thread for new set
06:50:42  <V453000> not yet I guess
06:51:12  <V453000> your thread has lunatics?
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06:51:40  <V453000> oh boy realism riot?
06:51:46  <andythenorth> maybe the wrong word, mental health is a proper thing
06:51:55  <andythenorth> but people who just don't know how to behave
06:52:14  <V453000> :D
06:52:22  <andythenorth> ACS121 is getting slightly toxic for the forums
06:52:39  <andythenorth> popping up on threads literally posting un-facts
06:52:44  <andythenorth> literally :P
06:53:39  <andythenorth> V453000: see here, the trains are all green and blue http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html
06:53:54  <andythenorth> not pleasing colour combo
06:54:10  <V453000> it's not like it's not a CC ? :D
06:54:34  <andythenorth> well it's one of the worst combos :P
06:54:48  <V453000> so are you going to automatically recolour for web? :D
06:54:49  <andythenorth> building a colour picker in the docs is total WTF overkill, right?
06:54:57  <V453000> LOL
06:55:01  <andythenorth> recolour for web is like 2 lines of code
06:55:02  <V453000> I didn't see that coming
06:55:13  <andythenorth> a colour picker is....hmm
06:55:24  <V453000> idk, sure is fancy
06:55:32  <andythenorth> most likely nobody ever ever uses it
06:55:34  <V453000> but hey, helps sell the product!
06:55:35  <V453000> :D
06:55:36  <andythenorth> and I don't need it
06:55:51  <V453000> more lunatics attracted by shiny too
06:55:51  <andythenorth> what's the best colour combo?  Still red + white?
06:55:53  <V453000> tool
06:56:03  <V453000> I like many combinations
06:56:11  <andythenorth> purple and cream
06:56:18  <andythenorth> white and grey
06:56:20  <V453000> I think I often use brown + blue, blue + green
06:56:31  <andythenorth> I miss the 'make it CC black' grf
06:56:33  <andythenorth> I lost it
06:56:34  <V453000> white + almost any, gray + almost any
06:56:42  <andythenorth> is RGB colours done?
06:56:44  <V453000> andythenorth: it's on bananas or our grf pack
06:56:50  <andythenorth> such bananas
06:57:00  <V453000> we definitely use it in our current game
06:57:19  <andythenorth> can't find it on bananas
06:57:19  <V453000> honestly, purple is eww :D
06:57:24  <V453000> pack then
06:58:24  <andythenorth> wow loads of horse names https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_horse_breeds
06:58:44  <V453000> :D you've got stuff to draw.
06:58:53  <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knabstrupper
06:59:03  <andythenorth> ha ha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Cracker_Horse
07:02:56  <Pikka> <andythenorth> I miss the 'make it CC black' grf <- do we need an updated betterCC grf? :o
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07:04:12  <andythenorth> we need arbitrary remap of CC
07:04:16  <andythenorth> there's a patch for that :P
07:04:16  <V453000> everything black
07:04:40  <andythenorth> and more CC
07:04:41  <andythenorth> 3CC
07:04:42  <Pikka> rgbcc :D
07:04:42  <andythenorth> 4CC
07:05:10  <andythenorth> there are ranges I use for recolouring which no sensible vehicle ever needs
07:05:15  <andythenorth> could be 4CC :P
07:05:21  <andythenorth> there's a purple, and a brick-red
07:06:06  <andythenorth> ok I rename 'Slug Resurrection' to 'Phoenix'
07:06:17  <andythenorth> it's an animal, and Total Realism also
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07:08:39  <andythenorth> https://farm1.staticflickr.com/647/32460200926_949a16c8b2_b.jpg
07:09:32  <Pikka> nice
07:10:31  <andythenorth> 'Wizzo' is silly, let's rename it
07:13:56  <peter1138> This KeldorKatarn guy is good at saying everything is shit without actually doing anything better.
07:14:18  <V453000> sounds like a common trend
07:14:47  <V453000> It's not like I have been doing anything else for years now peter1138 :P
07:15:47  <andythenorth> peter1138 if you read some of his posts in his own thread it's pretty 'pot, kettle'
07:15:55  <andythenorth> he makes a patchpack to entertain himself
07:16:03  <andythenorth> and is really clear he's not supporting feature requests etc
07:16:13  <andythenorth> but expects something different from core
07:17:35  <andythenorth> I think there's actually a good discussion there
07:17:42  <andythenorth> about core, and about newgrf also
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07:17:54  <andythenorth> but it will just get nitpick replies and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
07:18:02  <andythenorth> and ACS121 is actually posting incorrect shit
07:18:30  <andythenorth> oops, elswhere I should be
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07:31:50  <Wolf01> o/
07:32:10  <__ln__> \o
07:32:29  <__ln__> are you not "working" anymore?
07:32:34  <Wolf01> Holiday
07:33:11  <Wolf01> And Monday/Wednesday too
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08:04:00  <peter1138> hi
08:04:05  <Wolf01> o/
08:04:06  <peter1138> so i decided to work from home
08:04:10  <peter1138> https://mydrive.tomtom.com/en_gb/#mode=viewport+viewport=51.80742,-0.81737,11.93,0,-0+ver=3
08:04:13  <peter1138> fuck
08:04:16  <peter1138> fucked, i mean
08:04:44  <peter1138> i need to fix my commuter bike :S
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08:13:53  <SpComb> normal commuter traffic?
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08:15:30  <andythenorth> current names http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9009/horse_names.png
08:15:51  <ZehMatt> happy train
08:16:26  <ZehMatt> molestering childs since 2000 (TM)
08:16:59  <andythenorth> wasn't my first association with the name :P
08:17:25  <__ln__> "childs"
08:17:36  <Wolf01> Better than "childrens"
08:17:42  <ZehMatt> heh
08:18:51  <Wolf01> English: where you can have a plural form of a plural form :P
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08:20:15  <ZehMatt> most chat platforms allow me to hide my bad english before anyone notices not so much on irc :(
08:20:19  <peter1138> How do we just get NRT into master?
08:20:33  <peter1138> Fuck rewriting it :p
08:20:42  <peter1138> Just tidy up the TODOs.
08:20:45  <__ln__> i suggest the method of git add + git push
08:20:56  <andythenorth> can we rewite it in master?
08:20:57  <andythenorth> o_O
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08:21:03  <Wolf01> /me is going to check tires
08:21:16  <andythenorth> cards on the table: if it's in trunk I'll need to do an RV set :P
08:21:27  <andythenorth> and I'm drawing trains right now :P
08:21:39  <andythenorth> Wolf01: lego tyres?
08:21:40  <__ln__> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wite
08:22:01  <peter1138> andythenorth, as far as I can see, it doesn't need rewriting. The git history is a miss with all the merges, so that is undesirable to include imho.
08:22:18  <andythenorth> Wolf01 ^ opinions?
08:22:23  <peter1138> TODOs can be fixed in master but would be nice to have them sorted first.
08:23:04  <peter1138> I dunno how other devs feel of course.
08:23:14  <andythenorth> there is that
08:23:22  <andythenorth> meanwhile, what to test on livery UI?
08:23:32  <peter1138> I haven't changed anything since last time ;p
08:23:49  <andythenorth> ok I try and break it
08:23:51  <peter1138> Still the resize bug.
08:24:09  <peter1138> Oh yes, if you want to make that icon so that it brings up the UI and selects the livery that might be nice
08:24:13  <peter1138> Makes it less hidden.
08:24:23  <andythenorth> I never understood why the dropdowns aren't in the rows
08:24:34  <andythenorth> it's weird to focus row, then use dropdown at top
08:24:37  <andythenorth> but eh, history
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08:25:58  <andythenorth> well I couldn't break it so far
08:26:04  <peter1138> Because the rows are not real.
08:26:09  <peter1138> The dropdowns are real widgets.
08:26:11  <andythenorth> ok
08:26:25  <andythenorth> it's unrelated to groups, I just find livery UI weird :)
08:26:35  <andythenorth>  no checkboxes is a win
08:26:37  <peter1138> Does the checkbox change improve it?
08:26:38  <peter1138> Heh
08:27:12  <andythenorth> it doesn't improve it when you want to reset to default
08:27:17  <andythenorth> but it improves it in all other ways
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08:27:41  <andythenorth> the next trick would be arbitrary rules for groups :P
08:27:58  <andythenorth> and delete 'Passenger Coach (Monorail)' and such daftness
08:28:43  <andythenorth> mail is also passengers which is...eh
08:28:46  <peter1138> Just let players script it with something ;p
08:28:54  <andythenorth> newgrf colours :P
08:29:04  <peter1138> SQ
08:29:13  <andythenorth> cb and varact2 chain
08:29:28  <andythenorth> SQ could work :)
08:30:02  <andythenorth> also cabooses are passengers apparently
08:30:09  <andythenorth> even though no cargo capacity
08:30:21  * andythenorth needs to read src
08:30:56  <peter1138> Well they still have a cargo type, even if the capacity is zero.
08:31:11  <peter1138> And passengers would be the default type as it's the first in the list.
08:31:23  <andythenorth> right
08:31:25  <andythenorth> that makes sense
08:31:37  <peter1138> Engines are the same except as they have power they are treated differently.
08:31:54  <andythenorth> trying to figure out the rules
08:31:56  <andythenorth> seems to be LiveryClass
08:32:10  <peter1138> livery class is only a UI thing.
08:32:51  <andythenorth> I am in company_gui.cpp
08:32:53  <andythenorth> wrong place?
08:33:08  <peter1138> Yes
08:33:21  <andythenorth> LS_PASSENGER_WAGON_STEAM seems more likely to get results
08:33:53  <peter1138> GetEngineLiveryScheme in vehicle.cpp is where it actually happens.
08:34:40  <andythenorth> found it ta
08:34:48  <andythenorth> stick some squirrel in
08:34:59  <andythenorth> cache results somehow
08:35:02  <peter1138> :p
08:35:05  <andythenorth> job's a good un
08:35:11  <peter1138> They lot is actually cached.
08:35:45  <peter1138> -They+This
08:36:15  <andythenorth> so I could probably fix cabooses with cargo trick
08:36:18  <peter1138> And yeah, it uses the is_freight flag, so I guess that is false for mail.
08:36:36  <peter1138> Yeah but what if it's a caboose on a passenger train :p
08:36:41  <andythenorth> that too
08:36:52  <peter1138> Just make them black.
08:36:55  <andythenorth> ok so merge this, then I can draw an icon later, and we can call it a new feature
08:37:00  <peter1138> ;(
08:37:11  <andythenorth> works for me, how much can go wrong
08:37:15  <peter1138> Hah
08:37:17  <andythenorth> :P
08:37:20  <peter1138> Well the matrix is wrong :D
08:37:36  <andythenorth> I mean, nothing ever breaks in production in RL for me :P
08:38:02  <peter1138> Wolf01, I just realised, that was sarcasm right?
08:39:02  <ZehMatt> why_do_we_do_this ;(
08:39:25  <peter1138> Wolf01, sorry I suggested splitting it, and you put effort into that. I figured splitting was a way forward but I'm not sure now.
08:40:55  <andythenorth> should the livery groups show the hierarchy?
08:40:59  * andythenorth thinks don't bother
08:44:23  <peter1138> Indeed, don't think it's necessary.
08:44:39  <peter1138> Although that does affect the sort order as well.
08:45:46  <andythenorth> yeah keep it simple
08:46:00  <andythenorth> being able to do this at all is a nice feature
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09:00:39  <andythenorth> ugly peter1138 http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9010/group_livery_icon.png
09:00:41  <andythenorth> I'll improve
09:05:46  <andythenorth> should it have the train / ship / whatever in it?
09:06:35  <Wolf01> <peter1138> TODOs can be fixed in master but would be nice to have them sorted first. <- some are sorted on the town-roads branch, others I don't have any idea on what to do, for example there is still one I can't understand why it doesn't work on my rewrite and I put the same "return true"
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09:07:33  <Wolf01> <peter1138> andythenorth, as far as I can see, it doesn't need rewriting. <- no, it doesn't but on the rewrite I changed some inconsistent parts, I can change them on the old repo too without problems
09:09:02  <Wolf01> <peter1138> Wolf01, sorry I suggested splitting it, and you put effort into that.  <- no problem, I took it as an exercise to improve my coding skill
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09:20:11  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9011/group_livery_icon_2.png
09:20:42  <Wolf01> Better, with vehicles it contains too much info for a tiny icon
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09:24:07  <andythenorth> it's not right http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9013/group_livery_meh.png
09:24:15  <andythenorth> doesn't fit style
09:24:30  <Wolf01> Mmmh
09:24:49  <Wolf01> MAke the 3 trains of different colour without the palette?
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09:24:59  <andythenorth> yeah
09:25:02  <andythenorth> or rainbow train
09:25:10  <andythenorth> but then there are planes, ships, RV icons too
09:25:41  <Wolf01> Or a little palette with just 4 colours on top right?
09:26:10  <peter1138> Or a little paint brush
09:26:23  <Wolf01> +1
09:26:33  <andythenorth> I hate drawing icons :)
09:26:48  <peter1138> I like the palette though
09:26:56  <peter1138> Just it doesn't quite fit.
09:27:03  <peter1138> Also like the purple on the tankers.
09:27:27  <V453000> I'd expect the 3 trains like on the other group icons and a palette at the top left ... maybe it's not necessary to use all 16 colours though :) 9 or 4 might work?
09:27:38  <V453000> *top right
09:27:48  <andythenorth> oops, I made the windows logo
09:27:50  <andythenorth> 4 colours
09:27:59  <andythenorth> probably copyright :P
09:28:05  <V453000> xd
09:28:21  <Wolf01> You don't have many choices with 4 colours: windows, AVG, google
09:28:25  <peter1138> :D
09:29:05  <Wolf01> You can use pink, orange, cyan, purple
09:29:16  <V453000> gay
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09:29:44  <Pikka> +1 for paintbrush (and pot?)
09:29:48  <peter1138> Make it a trans flag.
09:30:16  <Wolf01> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT31IbM6hrI /me was here :P
09:30:48  <peter1138> Unrealistic. Not stubby enough.
09:31:05  <peter1138> They'd be glitching in real life.
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09:32:32  <__ln__> what's wrong with those people just standing still on the platform
09:34:48  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9014/group_livery_3.png
09:35:02  <andythenorth> Pikka: can you draw a paintbrush? o_O
09:35:05  * andythenorth can't :P
09:35:40  <Wolf01> Borrow old win95 icons :_D
09:35:45  <andythenorth> also breakfast, work, shops, tidying, washing
09:35:49  * andythenorth oops time
09:35:52  <Pikka> yes
09:36:15  <andythenorth> 32bpp paintbrush?
09:36:34  <Pikka> yes to "oops time", not to drawing a paintbrush :P
09:41:35  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9015/group_livery_less_meh.png
09:41:55  <andythenorth> paintbrush another time :P
09:44:29  <andythenorth> eh this is maybe ok http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9016/group_livery_even_less_meh.png
09:44:45  <Wolf01> Better, the other one was too big
09:44:48  <peter1138> That looks good to me
09:45:26  <andythenorth> it happens to be same size as the + * icon thing
09:45:34  <andythenorth> so it overlays
09:45:51  <andythenorth> I'll put them in openttdgui.png
09:46:01  <peter1138> Yeah, don't need to fabricate the missing parts
09:46:30  <peter1138> Or whereever they were salvages from.
09:46:32  <andythenorth> the one in your fork has the icons fixed?
09:46:34  <peter1138> -s+d
09:46:41  <peter1138> master has the icons fixed.
09:46:49  <andythenorth> ok I use that
09:46:54  <andythenorth> merge conflicts on pngs :P
09:46:55  <andythenorth> pita
09:47:02  <peter1138> SO, er, I guess my fork also :p
09:47:19  <peter1138> Yeah, well you could use a separate PNG for each sprite.
09:47:28  <peter1138> And then just make OpenTTD load PNGs. Again.
09:47:33  <andythenorth> slighltly painful
09:48:33  <peter1138> That was fun, dropping PNG support.
09:48:39  <peter1138> We're so evil.
09:50:37  * peter1138 pushes a force update after using git rebase to edit a previous commit. I'm so bad.
09:50:42  <peter1138> (Not openttd)
09:50:57  <andythenorth> peter1138: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9018/openttdgui.png
09:51:06  <andythenorth> I could do a PR and stuff :P
09:51:11  <andythenorth> or you can download that
09:51:18  <peter1138> In my own branch? heh
09:51:44  <peter1138> Maybe I can use them in the livery gui too.
09:51:50  <peter1138> At the moment it's using the clone icons :p
09:52:01  <andythenorth> I wondered
09:52:17  <andythenorth> yeah the proportions might be better
09:52:35  <peter1138> Possibly having just a plain unadorned version would be good.
09:52:36  <andythenorth> clone is narrow
09:52:43  <andythenorth> just the little palette?
09:52:43  <peter1138> Yeah, it's a smaller icon.
09:52:59  <peter1138> No, just the vehicles. As well, for the livery window.
09:53:01  <peter1138> I'm asking too much :p
09:53:04  <andythenorth> ah ok
09:53:11  <peter1138> But none of the other icons have palette icons in there.
09:53:15  <andythenorth> nope
09:53:47  <andythenorth> I can maybe do that later
09:54:01  <andythenorth> all the sprites are there to copy from, it's just some work
10:12:18  <peter1138> So the Nintendo Switch has a bug...
10:12:29  <andythenorth> orly? o_O
10:12:48  <peter1138> Can be broken into by a bootrom bug which can't be patched out.
10:13:05  <peter1138> So I await OpenTTD on it :p
10:13:18  <peter1138> And then people claiming it's shit becuase the UI is designed for mouse.
10:13:19  <andythenorth> my kids want one
10:13:30  <andythenorth> I am refusing
10:15:53  <peter1138> As you would.
10:16:18  <andythenorth> wow this sprite changed http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9019/chinook_eh.png
10:16:23  <andythenorth> v2, v1
10:17:59  <V453000> moar detailz
10:18:00  <V453000> iz good
10:20:27  <andythenorth> also https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1205916#p1205916
10:29:41  <peter1138> Top one looks better
10:30:00  <Wolf01> As it should
10:39:22  <andythenorth> phew
10:44:41  <andythenorth> derp
10:44:50  <andythenorth> why am I recompiling the newgrf to test names? :P
10:44:53  <andythenorth> can just rename in game
10:46:53  <peter1138> That hidden feature.
10:49:05  <andythenorth> someone should rename the button
10:49:11  <andythenorth> make it more obvious
10:50:40  <peter1138> Needs an icon!
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11:36:00  <peter1138> Hmm, lunch time?
11:36:36  <Wolf01> Maybe
11:45:46  <andythenorth> it's weird how people draw all the sprites
11:45:47  <andythenorth> then code
11:45:55  <andythenorth> ass backwards
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11:47:02  <peter1138> Well.
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11:49:55  <V453000> I'm making a full code prototype first andy :)
11:50:31  <V453000> BUT after the prototype I will make the "real" definitions of proper sprites after I have the sprites ... for freedom when making them, layers could work differently, some cargoes shared, ...
11:59:30  <andythenorth> I learnt to make flash games using mono-colour primitive shapes
11:59:54  <andythenorth> if you can't move a triangle around a platform game, it's not much good as a game
12:00:08  <V453000> :)
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12:03:07  <andythenorth> well http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html
12:03:18  <andythenorth> probly needs force-refresh of browser
12:03:23  <andythenorth> now red and white trains
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12:12:19  <V453000> I can't say I am much of a fan of white+red, can I get a colour picker?
12:12:31  <V453000> :D
12:13:42  <peter1138> That's nicer than green+blue.
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12:15:52  <andythenorth> V453000: I thought of offering a few examples
12:19:47  <andythenorth> yuck
12:19:59  <andythenorth> when the bread is invisibly mouldy
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12:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, i was trying to eat here
12:27:38  <peter1138> If the bread is green+blue then it's probably not edible.
12:30:02  <andythenorth> recolour it
12:44:43  <andythenorth> V453000: o_O http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/trains.html
12:45:13  <V453000> nice, 14 rows to go
12:45:14  <V453000> :P
12:46:31  <andythenorth> well
12:46:36  <andythenorth> 16 * 16 no?
12:48:28  <V453000> even better :P
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13:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and here i was thinking big bertha was a cannon, not a steam engine...
13:02:39  <andythenorth> I considered a railgun
13:02:44  <andythenorth> but can't justify it :P
13:15:03  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is that Collett thing supposed to be a tank loco? (72xx-ish) It looks very odd to me
13:15:13  <andythenorth> it's unfinished
13:15:19  <andythenorth> damn, now I have to learn to draw steam locos
13:15:23  <andythenorth> I was going to do some work work
13:15:30  <FLHerne> Rest of the lineup looks very nice :D
13:15:34  <FLHerne> And the wobsite
13:15:46  <andythenorth> your comment on the IC livery the other day, I had to redraw everything that uses it :P
13:16:03  <FLHerne> Um
13:16:10  <FLHerne> Perhaps I should stop commenting on things
13:16:12  <andythenorth> can't unsee once seen
13:16:19  <andythenorth> well it's improved it
13:16:48  <FLHerne> Oh, and I still can't get over your gradienty windows
13:16:59  <FLHerne> Particularly the 3px-high ones
13:17:09  <FLHerne> (Metro/Fleet)
13:17:15  <andythenorth> look too recessed?
13:17:26  <FLHerne> No, just really weird
13:17:30  <andythenorth> are those metro ones grey?
13:17:33  * andythenorth wonders
13:17:37  <FLHerne> (fwiw, the original TTD coaches make me feel the same way)
13:17:49  <FLHerne> (but not the OGFX ones)
13:17:56  <andythenorth> yeah they're grey
13:17:58  <andythenorth> not purple
13:18:07  <andythenorth> Dan probably had a reason
13:18:09  <andythenorth> at the time
13:18:20  <andythenorth> purple better though
13:19:11  <FLHerne> Three different iterations of shoebox seems excessive?
13:19:30  <andythenorth> it's about keeping up with speeds
13:19:40  <andythenorth> I considered something different to make a chang
13:19:42  <andythenorth> change *
13:19:51  <andythenorth> waiting for inspiration
13:20:23  <FLHerne> And it would be fun for me if the Sizzler had a low-power diesel mode like the real 88s, but that might be too confusing for this set :P
13:20:41  <andythenorth> I had a SparkyCat electro diesel
13:21:01  <andythenorth> removed it this morning
13:21:28  <andythenorth> it's a nice trick, but there's no gameplay situation where 7000HP electric and 1800HP diesel is good :P
13:21:49  <andythenorth> I really wanted to keep, because it's a nice bit of code
13:21:54  <FLHerne> Saves having catenary all over my crane-filled docks
13:21:59  <FLHerne> That looks horrible
13:22:07  <andythenorth> well there is that
13:22:28  <andythenorth> it's a couple of lines to restore it, I'll see how playtesting goes
13:22:55  <andythenorth> there is a viable grf http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/
13:23:01  <andythenorth> 75% of it is missing sprites
13:23:05  <andythenorth> but eh
13:23:23  <FLHerne> Hm, will try
13:23:38  <FLHerne> 95mph for the Express Tank just looks weird
13:23:49  <andythenorth> such fast tank engines :)
13:23:57  <FLHerne> It would be fun watching the wheels fly off when someone tried it with a real one
13:24:55  <FLHerne> I mean, it's faster than anything else available up to that point, and equal to the huge express-pax loco from the same year
13:25:22  <andythenorth> yes
13:25:30  <andythenorth> that's the design of the set
13:25:39  <andythenorth> the small engine is same speed as fast pax engine
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13:25:51  <andythenorth> I'm considering a more-realistic-speeds parameter
13:26:04  <andythenorth> it's easy to do if it's wanted, but the gameplay won't balanace
13:26:52  <FLHerne> I'm thinking most of your speed steps seem a bit high, really
13:27:08  <FLHerne> 110 for the first-gen shoebox is silly
13:27:22  <andythenorth> they're about 15mph over
13:27:38  <FLHerne> 140 for a rebuilt shoebox is just patently insane
13:27:54  <andythenorth> it's just a consequence of arithmetic
13:28:11  <andythenorth> new vehicle generation every 30 years
13:28:15  <andythenorth> set starts in 1860
13:28:18  <FLHerne> What stops them all just being a step lower? Balance with other modes?
13:28:37  <andythenorth> then freight is untenable until 1930
13:29:16  <andythenorth> if there were fewer generations, the problem would be reduced
13:29:36  <FLHerne> Meh, I've built early networks with Pikka's things before
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13:29:49  <FLHerne> 35mph is a bit annoying, but it's workable
13:29:51  <andythenorth> if you wanted to propose settings for a speed parameter, I would implement
13:30:01  <andythenorth> there are two ways it can be done (but have to pick one)
13:30:51  <andythenorth> Horse has per-generation speeds, in vehicle classes
13:31:02  <andythenorth> hmm code is easier
13:31:20  <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/src/rosters/pony.py#L56
13:31:33  <FLHerne> I really think it would be nicer just to bump every step down by 15mph, and maybe fudge the very early ones to 40mph or so
13:31:37  <andythenorth> the parameter could just scale those speeds up or down ^^
13:31:58  <andythenorth> or there is the option to set speeds individually on vehicles (but only for engines0
13:32:11  <andythenorth> but I'm not doing a parameter for both
13:32:30  <FLHerne> Setting speeds individually just sounds like a pain
13:32:35  <andythenorth> so speed parameter is either:  'realistic' | "unrealistic"
13:32:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's a good case for making a parameter here
13:32:43  <andythenorth> or "slower" | "faster"
13:32:51  <FLHerne> All anyone can do with it is unbalance things
13:33:20  <FLHerne> I still don't see why 'faster' needs to be an option :P
13:33:36  <andythenorth> author's privilege
13:33:43  <andythenorth> there's no rationale, other than "I like it"
13:33:59  <andythenorth> I like that the UK roster has insane fast freight trains
13:34:03  <andythenorth> other rosters...won't
13:34:30  <FLHerne> Well, okay, it's your set :-)
13:34:47  <andythenorth> but I think it will put other people off
13:35:01  <andythenorth> the ship grfs I did have speed parameters for similar reasons
13:35:10  <andythenorth> and capacity parameters in Horse and Hog
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13:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Freight speed: {Masochist|Junkie}
13:36:21  <andythenorth> :)
13:36:24  <andythenorth> FLHerne: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/precxjg6y
13:36:27  <V453000> fast is fun :)
13:36:44  <andythenorth> all it needs is an alternative set of values there, and I need to then code it
13:37:04  <andythenorth> and $someone has to decide about progression
13:37:33  <andythenorth> what I've found is that progression isn't a big deal, except when it's meaninglessly small
13:37:37  <andythenorth> then it just seems stupid
13:37:44  <andythenorth> like 5mph increases are dumb
13:38:09  <Eddi|zuHause> having all steps the same size is problematic because there's an exponential component to it, which expresses over long timeframes
13:38:13  <andythenorth> yes
13:38:28  <andythenorth> I don't progress at all between gen 1 and 2
13:38:30  <Eddi|zuHause> so you could have one step size for the eariler generations, and another for the later ones
13:38:32  <andythenorth> it's not always necessary
13:38:41  <andythenorth> and yes, the step sizes can vary
13:38:48  <V453000> it's definitely good to have big steps in progression :)
13:38:58  <supermop_work> andythenorth: small increases aren't worth re-timetabling your trains
13:39:03  <andythenorth> the later pax trains progress at 30mph steps
13:39:07  <V453000> but at the same time you want it reasonably often
13:39:22  <andythenorth> everything everybody said
13:39:23  <V453000> in my set, I'm adding a paramerter for game length
13:39:32  <andythenorth> V453000: does it scale intro dates? o_O
13:39:44  <V453000> well now it doesn't exist, but yes it will do exactly that
13:39:48  <andythenorth> srsly
13:39:55  <V453000> possible even shift, so a parameter for start, and multiplier for length
13:40:05  <andythenorth> if you find a good way to do that, I think we should implement it same way
13:40:11  <V453000> why not :) is not realism
13:40:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a horrible kludge in lieu of generic daylength setting
13:40:34  <andythenorth> I want to do it, but it only makes sense if all the grfs you're using do it the same way
13:40:41  <V453000> well if I have 11 vehicles, each of them is 20 years apart, you can just do start+multipler*level*20
13:40:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: well, there should be some tech tree instead
13:40:49  <Eddi|zuHause> because every newgrf author ever now must duplicate the same setting
13:40:53  <andythenorth> and let openttd handle the dates
13:40:58  <andythenorth> assign 16 generations
13:41:00  <andythenorth> or 8
13:41:12  <andythenorth> and let game handle introductions
13:41:22  <andythenorth> then fix expiry too
13:41:42  <V453000> well you could of course change the expiring with the same parameter
13:41:46  <V453000> not sure if I would
13:42:49  <V453000> thing is, sometimes people just want to use set on a goal server which lasts 3 hours, sometimes people want to use set on a server and play for 4 days straight
13:42:56  <andythenorth> ys
13:43:13  <andythenorth> blatantly decoupling vehicle introduction from specific dates would be winningest
13:43:19  <V453000> and when the set isn't realistic, it's not even that bad compared to daylength shit
13:43:26  <andythenorth> daylength is a turkey
13:43:56  <V453000> well regardless, I'll probably do it :)
13:44:18  <V453000> if for nothing else, then for compatibility with other sets
13:44:19  <andythenorth> FLHerne: so if pax speeds were capped at 110mph, would that bother you? o_O
13:44:31  <V453000> your ship set is 1900-1980 and you want to match it? easy
13:44:46  <andythenorth> I have solved ships
13:44:48  <andythenorth> one generation :P
13:44:49  <FLHerne> A bit, yes
13:44:56  <FLHerne> I mean, we have 125mph ones right now
13:45:03  <andythenorth> is the issue the speeds, or is it having a fast shoebox train?
13:45:20  <FLHerne> (and 140mph-capable if NR had their heads screwed on)
13:46:10  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Speed:date , which ~= speed:prototype
13:47:01  <FLHerne> 110mph is fine, but 110mph in 1960 with all the locos based on 90-100mph things seems odd
13:47:31  <andythenorth> cap it down?
13:47:37  <andythenorth> then go to 110mph in 1990?
13:47:44  <andythenorth> then 125 in 2020?
13:48:11  <FLHerne> [14:31] <FLHerne> I really think it would be nicer just to bump every step down by 15mph, and maybe fudge the very early ones to 40mph or so
13:48:20  <FLHerne> ^ is that, pretty much :P
13:50:19  <andythenorth> for pax and freight both same?
13:50:23  <FLHerne> Yes
13:50:48  <andythenorth> shall I just multiply it by 0.8? :P
13:50:49  <FLHerne> 1990 being 75/110 is definitely right
13:51:03  <andythenorth> it is realism
13:51:19  <FLHerne> Well, yes
13:51:23  <andythenorth> the magic numbers 125 and 225 were big for BR marketing in the 80s and 90s
13:51:32  <andythenorth> but the trains didn't usually go that fast
13:52:11  <FLHerne> Well, it's not as if you actually have an HST or Electra
13:52:30  <peter1138> Hi.
13:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i tried to make it so the speeds reflected the actual timetable speed rather than the advertised "top" speed
13:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure i succeeded everywhere
13:53:13  <andythenorth> 30 or 40mph as low end freight?
13:53:29  <FLHerne> Hm
13:53:44  <FLHerne> 35 or 40? 30 is just tedious
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13:54:01  <FLHerne> How's the APT supposed to balance?
13:54:16  <FLHerne> It's faster than the generation of pax locos from 10 years later
13:54:20  <andythenorth> yes
13:54:33  <andythenorth> but if you don't run it on dedicated paths...it's a mess
13:54:33  <FLHerne> Capacity?
13:54:35  <FLHerne> Price?
13:54:37  <FLHerne> Ah
13:54:46  <andythenorth> it's a bit OP / troll
13:55:10  <andythenorth> max freight speed?  looks like there is a 20mph jump currently to 110mph
13:55:15  <andythenorth> 90?
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13:55:26  <FLHerne> I have a suspicion that people will solve that one by just making all their pax trains APT from 1980-2020
13:55:44  <FLHerne> Well, no, 2000 and then Pendo
13:56:01  <andythenorth> yes
13:56:04  <andythenorth> I'm fine with that
13:56:07  <andythenorth> trains are there, can be used
13:56:10  <FLHerne> Yes
13:56:22  <andythenorth> I considered new track type...but meh
13:56:37  <peter1138> "I'd love coupling, decoupling etc. It wouldn't need much work though."
13:56:38  <peter1138> lol
13:57:14  <FLHerne> I guess I just don't see when the Thunderbird/Screamer would be a rational choice
13:57:30  <FLHerne> They're the same as each other, but still faster than the previous gen so you need an upgrade
13:57:38  <andythenorth> yes
13:57:43  <FLHerne> And by that point the APT is already available for years, and faster
13:58:15  <andythenorth> yes
13:58:24  <FLHerne> So why wouldn't I just upgrade/retimetable for those instead, if not explicitly aiming for variety etc?
13:58:30  <andythenorth> you probably would
13:58:38  <andythenorth> but dropping the other types is weird
13:58:41  <FLHerne> (which I would, but that's not the point)
13:58:43  <andythenorth> weirder than not
13:58:50  <FLHerne> Yes
13:58:59  <andythenorth> also no mail on pendos
13:59:01  <andythenorth> so eh
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13:59:19  <andythenorth> that messes your network up eh :)
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13:59:34  <andythenorth> how's this look? https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pdm944pkd
13:59:35  <Eddi|zuHause> deciding between engine+wagons or EMU is mostly a roleplaying choice
13:59:42  <FLHerne> Ah, that makes some sense
13:59:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1
14:00:13  <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure the balance is not totally off
14:00:29  <andythenorth> I played one test game, seemed fine there
14:00:36  <FLHerne> Hm, I think freight-2 should be 45
14:00:47  <andythenorth> ok changed
14:00:52  <FLHerne> 35 is playable, but I wouldn't want to play it for /too/ long :P
14:01:02  <andythenorth> I push a one-off build of this, no parameter
14:01:07  <andythenorth> you can try
14:01:53  <FLHerne> Which ones are fast_freight?
14:02:32  <FLHerne> On the list-page, both freight locos for each gen seem to have the same speed
14:02:41  <andythenorth> they do
14:02:48  <andythenorth> fast freight uses an express loco
14:03:29  <andythenorth> "New on the iOS and Android stores: Iron Horse, the Missing Manual" :P
14:03:38  <FLHerne> Oh, I see, that's for wagons
14:04:04  <FLHerne> (is it?)
14:04:11  <andythenorth> yes
14:05:17  <FLHerne> Ok, makes sense
14:05:22  <andythenorth> hmm the engines aren't as easy to do
14:05:48  <andythenorth> this is what branches are for :P
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14:08:45  <andythenorth> FLHerne: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/iron-horse-r2223.zip
14:08:57  <andythenorth> only the wagons / coaches are done...so it's weird
14:09:15  <andythenorth> makes the engine-wagon balance meaningless
14:09:29  <andythenorth> I can sort that out later
14:14:36  <FLHerne> There seem to be identical pairs of some wagons (because of the identical speed steps?)
14:15:07  <FLHerne> Tangentially, are three different lengths of tank car in every gen really needed?
14:16:21  <FLHerne> And one of the "Metal Car (Small)"s is the same size as the other Large cars and twice as big as the previous small metal ones
14:18:27  <FLHerne> And the Chinnooks merge together into one long loco in  \ /
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14:32:14  <FLHerne> I do think these speeds are about right
14:32:28  <andythenorth> ok
14:32:35  <andythenorth> the metal cars are a bit challenging
14:32:40  <andythenorth> both size and speed-wise
14:32:52  <andythenorth> Horse 2 wagons set capacity based on length :P
14:33:11  <andythenorth> ok I'll do some work work, then set speeds for locos
14:33:14  <andythenorth> and add a parameter
14:33:15  <Alberth> o/
14:33:21  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
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14:34:44  <FLHerne> That's funny, the window area of the pax cars changes colour on corners :P
14:35:26  <andythenorth> only the – views are drawn
14:35:34  <andythenorth> the rest, if they exist, are horse 1
14:36:37  <andythenorth> supermop_work: o/
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14:57:54  <Wolf01> Meh, another "OTTD is dying, long life to OTTD"
14:58:09  <Wolf01> *another topic
14:58:31  <andythenorth> let's all start one
14:58:52  <andythenorth> I think I can write a bot to do the replies
14:59:04  <andythenorth> procedurally, not even natural language processing or anything
14:59:50  <Alberth> just refer to the previous thread each time :p
15:07:20  <peter1138> I love the comment that went something like "if nobody had written it, nobody would have written it"
15:07:49  <andythenorth> I couldn't understand that tbh
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15:15:53  <peter1138> Should I finish off group livery tonight, or... go out on my MTB ride.
15:15:57  <peter1138> I reckon the latter.
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15:20:29  <muffindrake> I wonder how depots and hangars manage to be bigger on the inside
15:20:49  <andythenorth> tardis
15:21:17  <peter1138> There's no game scale, so...
15:21:36  <peter1138> Runways are much longer than they appear as well.
15:21:49  <peter1138> Space-time dilations all over the place.
15:23:08  <peter1138> Hmm, I would quite like drive-through depots though. Same as a normal depot but with 2 exits.
15:23:24  <peter1138> Probably doesn't even need new sprites
15:23:53  <peter1138> Maybe have a flag to say if a vehicle is actually just passing through or stopping.
15:24:12  <peter1138> Someone must have done a patch for that!
15:24:25  <Alberth> if you make a 90 degree turn in the depot, you might need a new graphic :)
15:24:34  <peter1138> No, just straight through.
15:24:51  <andythenorth> there was a patch for that in dev forum
15:24:54  <Alberth> yeah, would work
15:25:18  <peter1138> With the ability to just drive through without stopping you could then have your "realistic" massive depots...
15:25:29  <peter1138> Although clicking on the right tile to find a train.
15:26:17  <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=42312&hilit=drive+through+depot
15:26:22  <Wolf01> I would like depots like stations too, 1 train per depot and length limited on how many of them you chain, drive-through too, if you need more trains make another "platform"
15:26:50  <andythenorth> I am potato/potato on depots
15:26:52  <andythenorth> but eh
15:27:19  <peter1138> Wolf01, not keen on 1 train per depot tbh.
15:27:38  <peter1138> andythenorth, 2009 ;(
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15:27:58  <andythenorth> well not much has changed since then eh :)
15:28:29  <peter1138> "Get that into your head" wow, I was horrible.
15:28:50  <peter1138> Oh but I was only borrowing his style :p
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15:29:38  <peter1138> andythenorth, well, the patch has gone anyway.
15:29:57  <andythenorth> :P
15:31:19  <andythenorth> ah the good old days
15:31:27  <andythenorth> when things were properly toxic sometimes
15:31:31  <andythenorth> instead of boringly toxic
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15:36:45  <andythenorth> FLHerne: is the lack of realism on engine speeds going to be upsetting?
15:36:53  <andythenorth> fake 37 and fake 20 will be 60mph
15:37:50  <andythenorth> IRL 90mph
15:37:51  <FLHerne> Eh, it's better than now, and train speed should still be right
15:38:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you'll always upset *someone*
15:38:11  <andythenorth> I know
15:38:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the question is how large that fraction is
15:38:20  <andythenorth> I just prefer to make it a choice, not an accident
15:38:36  <andythenorth> is that pyschopathic, or mature? o_O
15:38:54  <FLHerne> I wonder if you could just make the first 37 be 75mph and skip the second one, having three variants seems a bit pointless
15:39:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and whether there's a sane thing to do to reduce that fraction, without giving up the core goal you're trying to achieve
15:39:09  <FLHerne> (yes, I do know that screws up your nice generations)
15:39:23  <andythenorth> it's just annoying to the player
15:39:52  <andythenorth> there are engines in horse 1 that are faster than the wagons they pull
15:39:58  <andythenorth> it just seems badly designed :)
15:40:49  <FLHerne> At 75, it could be used for secondary pax trains using the previous gen of wagons
15:41:07  <FLHerne> (not sure how you're doing expiry, if at all?)
15:41:25  <FLHerne> While still being slower than the express ones at 90
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15:41:56  <FLHerne> Which seems like an accurate summary of how 37s are actually used :P
15:42:55  <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out if I can avoid a speed parameter
15:43:05  <andythenorth> I don't like 110mph freight trains in my game
15:43:09  <FLHerne> TBH, I find your perfectly-regimented generations a bit dull, but I know I'm not quite the target market ;-)
15:43:24  <andythenorth> it's fine, I had the same concern for a while
15:43:36  <andythenorth> I got over it
15:44:02  <andythenorth> mostly I am playing GS rather than making a train set
15:44:24  <andythenorth> both are valid, but Horse is more oriented to goal play
15:44:27  <FLHerne> Given the way they come in batches for exactly the same roles, it seems like it's just
15:44:28  <Wolf01> BTW these features https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=53394 should be considered, small things which might greatly improve some gameplay
15:44:39  <FLHerne> "Oh, the new trains came along, better set autoreplace again"
15:44:46  <andythenorth> yes
15:44:58  <andythenorth> there is no consist management tool of any kind
15:45:09  <andythenorth> so you don't want to be manually managing consists often
15:45:23  <FLHerne> And then all my trains are 15mph faster, and I buy the new ones instead of the old, and that's it
15:45:28  <andythenorth> if there was a template-based consist tool, I'd probably do something different
15:45:31  <Flygon_> (Oh jeeze, the speed debate...)
15:46:09  <andythenorth> Horse is designed to fit the OpenTTD we have today, where replacing consists is not a thing
15:46:14  <andythenorth> global autoreplace ftw :P
15:46:26  <Flygon_> (Never mind the fact that VLocity sets here officially do 160km/h, could realistically do 200km/h, but are actually capable of 225km/h... but trainsets go with the service speed decided because V/Line is too broke to upgrade to incab signalling. :3)
15:46:38  <andythenorth> Flygon_: such realities :)
15:47:00  <peter1138> Wolf01, yeah, I looked at that last year when I had a flurry of activity.
15:47:18  <Flygon_> (We have DMUs that could go as fast as early Shinkansens, but our Government is bad at investing money. :3)
15:47:25  <Flygon_> (Anyway, it's 1:47AM. Good night!)
15:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> "could realistically do 200km/h, but are actually capable of 225km/h" <-- all trains are tested to 10% above their nominal top speed
15:47:45  <Flygon_> Okay. I'm suppose to actually sleep, but...
15:47:47  <Flygon_> Basicallly.
15:48:09  <Flygon_> The transmission is actually designed for 225km/h, and the sets themselves have been driven to 200-210km/h or so during testing.
15:48:15  <Flygon_> Difficulty level - Optical signalling.
15:48:19  <FLHerne> andythenorth: In principle, I think it would be neat if one of the freight-ish locos per generation was more of a mixed-traffic thing, at the previous gen's express speed
15:48:20  <peter1138> Wolf01, I started pulling things from patch-packs but got frustrated as we didn't use git properly then. And then I saw the Saveload changes.
15:48:29  <Flygon_> So they are capped at 160km/h because the signalling sucks.
15:48:36  <Flygon_> Not any actual hardware limitation.
15:48:46  <FLHerne> Then the boring people can just have it pull freight, and people who want an overcomplicated heirarchy of speeds can have one
15:49:15  <andythenorth> FLHerne: yeah they miss by 20mph eh
15:49:21  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: i mean, if a train is going to be licensed for 200km/h, it must achieve a stable speed of 220km/h during tests
15:49:38  <andythenorth> FLHerne: do a paste that lines them up? o_O
15:49:45  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Sorry, I don't quite understand what you said :P
15:49:48  <FLHerne> (the first one)
15:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> err
15:49:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant Flygon_
15:50:02  <Flygon_> (I'm not actually sure if the 10% 'in service' rule applies, but I've heard on the grapevine that late VLos being allowed to go 177km/h are a thing.)
15:50:15  <Wolf01> Saveload is frustrating sometimes, I can't really come out with a good idea on how to handle that, without adding 1MB of headers which store the features present in the savegame (almost like we did with grfs back in time)
15:50:17  <Flygon_> (But that might just be a rumor.)
15:50:31  <Flygon_> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, the VLos are WAY more overspecced than what they actually run in service.
15:50:35  <andythenorth> FLHerne: freight n doesn't match pax n-1
15:50:44  <andythenorth> it's 20mph different
15:50:48  <Flygon_> Like I said, they could probably hit 225km/h safely, and that's still well below the actual tolerances of the hardware.
15:50:54  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Ok, yes, that's sort of what I meant
15:51:06  <FLHerne> (although it seems to be 15 different in the version I'm looking at?)
15:51:07  <Flygon_> In fact, you probably hit issues with the actual engines themselves hitting their max power limits.
15:51:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon_: yeah, but signalling systems you just don't upgrade overnight
15:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that's easily a 10 year project for a single line
15:51:58  <Flygon_> It's Victoria.
15:52:11  <Flygon_> What should be a 10 year project gets done in 55 years and only 20% done.
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15:52:23  <Flygon_> See - Our conversion from 1600mm to 1435mm.
15:52:30  <Flygon_> > Suppose to be done in 10 years.
15:52:33  <Flygon_> > 80 years later...
15:52:57  <Eddi|zuHause> well, we still have unfinished projects from 150 years ago
15:53:14  <Flygon_> We understand the bureaucratic struggle, bruddah. :3
15:53:16  <Eddi|zuHause> ... that people are still trying to get finished
15:54:01  <Flygon_> But... yeah.
15:54:04  <Flygon_> The end result is... uh...
15:54:06  <peter1138> Wolf01, obviously we should just use a modern language ;)
15:54:14  <Flygon_> Our rollingstock is simply never stressed out.
15:54:26  <Flygon_> And the VLocity acceleration curve is ludicrous for a 2003 design.
15:54:35  <Flygon_> A DMU isn't suppose to out-accelerate an EMU...
15:54:54  <Flygon_> But those new Diesel-Electric Hitachis coming from the UK...
15:54:55  <peter1138> Fast acceleration is uncomfortable apparently.
15:54:59  <Flygon_> They're a whole nother level of insanity.
15:55:01  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: of course, all our problems will be solved if we only quickly switched to {$framework|$language|$buzzword}
15:55:06  <peter1138> At least, Train Simulator tells me off for it :p
15:55:12  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, unity!
15:55:25  <peter1138> And all addons will be scripted.
15:55:26  <Flygon_> Not only does their acceleration curve seem to beat out the VLocity, they're doing it on Diesel-Electrics... completely insane. O_o"
15:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i had some mod for KSP once where tourist contracts required you to stay below 4g acceleration... :p
15:56:07  <peter1138> Yup. 4G is a lot.
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15:56:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that did turn out to be quite hard, though :p
15:56:43  <Flygon_> Okay 2AM good night! Sorry for being an annoying ass in the channel. :3
15:56:44  <peter1138> OpenTTD doesn't really have a limited acceleration rate, but then who cares that scale.
15:56:49  <Flygon_> You guys are fucking awesome.
15:56:53  <Flygon_> Nini. :3
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15:58:34  <andythenorth> peter1138: changing to $modern language always negates need for design
15:58:43  <peter1138> Yes. We won't need specs.
15:59:05  <andythenorth> I think it's akin to Dunning Kruger
15:59:16  <andythenorth> those who can't design don't understand the need for design
15:59:59  <peter1138> But modern games don't need it.
16:00:03  <peter1138> Nor code-style
16:00:04  <andythenorth> of course not
16:00:06  <andythenorth> they're modern
16:00:15  <andythenorth> nobody in real software does code review
16:00:27  <andythenorth> ISO 27001 and other standards practically forbid it
16:00:30  <peter1138> Because everyone likes commits that change code style everywhere interspersed with other changes.
16:00:30  <andythenorth> as outdated
16:00:40  <andythenorth> that's just a button in your IDE
16:00:49  <andythenorth> this is a silly gme
16:01:52  <andythenorth> hmm speed parameter in horse is much more work than I thought
16:01:58  <andythenorth> when is coding ever not like that? :(
16:02:53  <Alberth> /me murmles something about a design
16:04:04  <andythenorth> I dislike centralising properties that should be integral to a vehicle
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16:04:17  <andythenorth> sometimes it's necessary
16:04:19  <peter1138> Alberth, any views on NRT? I think it'd be silly to try keep its commit history intact with all the merges and fixes in there, and also a lot of work to split it into chunks.
16:04:35  <peter1138> There's some TODOs I'd like to see cleared up.
16:05:09  <Alberth> I don't have any views about that
16:05:26  <peter1138> Any views such as "this is shit" or "it's ok"? :p
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16:06:05  * peter1138 bought a teapot with integral filter. Finally I can use up that loose tea someone erroneously bought. It might be a bit old...
16:06:22  <Alberth> I can see it has value for those that make newgrfs, and play with road. I do neither
16:06:32  <peter1138> hehe
16:06:44  <peter1138> Well looking at it that way, I don't even play the game :D
16:06:54  <Alberth> :D
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16:11:30  <Alberth> so what other options do you have if you don't want to keep as-is, and not make chunks?
16:12:16  <andythenorth> rewrite
16:12:21  <andythenorth> rebase -i
16:12:22  <peter1138> Thorough review and just add it as is :p
16:12:45  <peter1138> It's something like 200 individual commits.
16:12:48  <peter1138> + merges.
16:14:33  <muffindrake> So in order to send an aircraft that has just taken on passengers to the hangar, it must first take off, then land again at the same airport
16:14:50  <peter1138> Not ideal.
16:15:16  <Alberth> My usual tactic is to clone the branch to a new repo, and start a new branch from master; then have a diff viewer / editor (like gvimdiff) to copy changes over from the clone to the new branch
16:15:20  <muffindrake> It's not so bad if you have an international airport
16:15:32  <muffindrake> but smaller ones with high traffic might not be so lucky
16:15:37  <peter1138> Alberth, oh, it's easy to squash it all down to one commit.
16:16:04  <peter1138> It's just quite large.
16:16:13  <Alberth> you do commit at nice points during the copy process :p
16:16:43  <Alberth> maybe this counts as chunks for you
16:16:49  <peter1138> Problem is it touches many things so you can easily split it into map, core, ui, etc.
16:16:54  <peter1138> .. *can't*
16:17:45  <Alberth> that sounds likely; the tricky bit is always what to commit in which order
16:18:24  <Alberth> it may need more iterations, or more shuffling of commits afterwards
16:19:01  <muffindrake> I see that the repo has been granted asylum at github
16:19:07  <muffindrake> Is that to reduce hosting costs?
16:19:17  <Alberth> with shuffling have the major problem that VCS need to be satisfied with lots of irrelevant change details
16:19:32  <peter1138> No, it's to improvement developer and contributor workflow.
16:20:26  <peter1138> -ment
16:20:41  <Alberth> +yay
16:20:51  <peter1138> muffindrake, https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=83056
16:21:49  <FLHerne> andythenorth: http://www.flherne.uk/files/ih_speed_proposal.png
16:22:10  <FLHerne> (where 'mixed' is the current not-heavy freight)
16:22:14  <muffindrake> peter1138: that clears up things, thanks
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16:23:47  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, tbc that's locos and then rolling stock
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16:27:40  <andythenorth> I'll save that
16:28:48  <andythenorth> letting speeds brew for a bit
16:28:52  <andythenorth> there are two problems
16:28:56  <FLHerne> So you can complain when I suggest something different later? :P
16:29:05  <andythenorth> :P
16:29:15  <andythenorth> I don't like the top end freight speeds, it's too fast
16:29:46  <andythenorth> 110mph in the as-designed speeds
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16:29:53  <andythenorth> because I was persuaded to add gen 6
16:30:57  <FLHerne> Hm
16:31:04  <andythenorth> that's a separate issue to the one you found
16:31:07  <FLHerne> Possibly G6 freight speeds should just be the G5 ones
16:31:17  <andythenorth> that pegs the railcars to 90mph then
16:31:24  <andythenorth> which might be fine
16:31:27  <andythenorth> but eh
16:31:48  <FLHerne> With my proposal, that means you can use the G6 heavy loco at G5/6 fast-freight speeds, so it's still an improvement
16:32:00  <FLHerne> (and G6 mixed with G5 pax stock)
16:32:46  <andythenorth> hmm
16:32:51  <andythenorth> fast freight is the problem
16:33:12  <FLHerne> http://www.flherne.uk/files/ih_speed_proposal_v2.png
16:33:34  <FLHerne> Hm, possibly that means there just shouldn't be G6 freight stock
16:33:40  <FLHerne> It all looks the same anyway
16:34:21  <andythenorth> I think if there's G6, then there has to be G6
16:34:24  <andythenorth> I didn't want G6
16:34:32  <andythenorth> but I was persuaded by $can't remember
16:34:43  <andythenorth> oh it's because OpenTTD goes to 2050
16:34:54  <andythenorth> and on a 30-years-per-gen rule, there has to be one in 2020
16:34:58  <andythenorth> it's just entailed
16:35:06  <FLHerne> Meh, just make the wagons bigger or something
16:35:15  <V453000> it's not like 2020 is in 2 years :P
16:35:27  <FLHerne> That'll help with the "aargh how the hell do I shift all this?!" problem that comes up late-game
16:35:47  <andythenorth> it's also good discipline to stretch the set out properly
16:35:57  <andythenorth> instead of just doing 1960-1990 model railway set
16:36:03  <FLHerne> And avoid having to build ridiculous 20-platform multi-merge MGR stations for every factory
16:36:04  <andythenorth> I blame V453000
16:36:33  * andythenorth wonders why freight speed isn't pax speed for gen -1
16:36:39  <andythenorth> they're all 5mph differnet
16:37:01  <FLHerne> They're 10mph different on my table :P
16:38:02  <FLHerne> Oh, I forgot to put the metros on
16:38:16  <andythenorth> yeah it was the metros that stopped me doing the parameter
16:38:30  <andythenorth> there are too many things in the tech tree, the dict gets really ugly
16:38:43  <andythenorth> then it all has to be copied again for option 2 speeds
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16:39:02  <andythenorth> I'd rather get the base right, then just introduce a multiplier, like 0.8, 1, 1.2
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16:39:49  <andythenorth> first fast freight needs fixed
16:39:51  <andythenorth> it's a mess
16:40:17  <andythenorth> what even is fast freight?
16:40:25  <andythenorth> and why?
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16:41:51  <FLHerne> http://www.flherne.uk/files/ih_speed_proposal_v3.png
16:41:58  <FLHerne> (with metro)
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16:42:11  <FLHerne> Livestock, intermodal
16:42:22  <FLHerne> Vans'n'things
16:42:31  <andythenorth> fast freight is currently just fridge and edibles tanks
16:42:32  <andythenorth> so food
16:42:40  <FLHerne> Hm
16:42:47  <andythenorth> and they both already have a cargo aging bonus too
16:42:59  <FLHerne> Possibly that's right, actually
16:43:10  <andythenorth> the basic rationale is to be able to use pax engines on some freight trains
16:43:12  <FLHerne> I think my idea would have too many things being 'fast'
16:43:14  <andythenorth> there's no other gameplay reason
16:43:28  <andythenorth> it's just to keep the train list from being totally repetitive
16:43:31  <FLHerne> Yes
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16:44:00  <FLHerne> In my proposal, you can either use the current small freight engine, or last gen's express locos
16:44:09  <FLHerne> (or the current one, but they're too fast)
16:44:35  <FLHerne> That gives a reasonable impression of cascading, and means you have more overlap between gens being useful
16:44:43  <andythenorth> I think lining up the speeds is much easier to then scale
16:44:49  <FLHerne> Rather than one set becoming instantly obsolete
16:45:10  <andythenorth> so the reason for the current difference
16:45:21  <Eddi|zuHause> some overlap may be interesting for people playing with breakdowns
16:45:30  <andythenorth> I pegged freight to 75mph Speedlink, because IRL, and then bracketed either side in steps
16:45:36  <Eddi|zuHause> as models might not go to full reliability
16:45:43  <Eddi|zuHause> you can then skip that model
16:45:52  <andythenorth> I pegged pax to 110mph because west coast electrics IRL, then bracketed
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16:46:06  <andythenorth> that is bad for gameplay and the maths
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16:46:21  <andythenorth> IRL ruins all thigns
16:46:23  <andythenorth> things *
16:46:26  <muffindrake> In openttd, tree huggers issue building permits?
16:46:26  <FLHerne> Yes
16:46:29  <muffindrake> Oh my.
16:47:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, always build stations first...
16:47:08  <andythenorth> get a bus route
16:47:13  <andythenorth> the LA loves a bus
16:47:22  <FLHerne> I still don't really see how that's relevant, though. They do line up.
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16:48:29  <andythenorth> they do in your proposal
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16:48:38  <andythenorth> they don't in current IH
16:48:45  <FLHerne> Hm
16:48:52  <andythenorth> I am compiling a version where they do line up
16:48:57  <FLHerne> In that case, what are your objections to it? :P
16:49:11  <andythenorth> lining them up?  Nothing
16:49:44  <andythenorth> the mixed traffic thing I'd take as a separate question, I tried it before twice and couldn't make it stick
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16:51:06  <muffindrake> https://i.imgur.com/dfsRyQz.png
16:51:20  <muffindrake> Are water sheep are thing in this game?
16:51:32  <muffindrake> a thing*
16:51:35  <muffindrake> Ugh.
16:51:43  <FLHerne> I'm fairly sure it works with the current lineup, just by making the small freight loco a step faster
16:52:11  <andythenorth> yeah when I tried that before it just looks broken
16:52:17  <andythenorth> like the stats are set wrong
16:52:39  <andythenorth> let me get the speeds lined up and we'll see
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16:52:57  <FLHerne> They're powerful enough to move a short pax rake or fast freight, then for longer fast freight you can use them in pairs or the previous gen's express loco
16:53:13  <FLHerne> (or the current one, if you really need the power)
16:55:35  <andythenorth> what if I stick to rigid 15mph steps?
16:55:44  <andythenorth> instead of 90mph -> 110mph
16:55:55  <andythenorth> most players will be in km/h anyway :P
16:56:17  <andythenorth> it's weird, I'm faking nearly everything
16:56:28  <andythenorth> but sticking rigidly to 110mph for 1 AC electric loco
16:56:32  <andythenorth> because realism
16:56:57  <FLHerne> Then you don't get 125 either
16:57:06  <FLHerne> Which, as you say, is sort of iconic
16:57:13  <FLHerne> Or on the other side?
16:57:19  <andythenorth> it's sort of iconic, but there's no HST
16:57:31  <andythenorth> so eh
16:57:41  <andythenorth> and there's no Deltic, and no A3 or A4
16:58:48  <FLHerne> I think 35, 50, 65, 80, 95, 110, 125 would be the way to go if you wanted that
16:58:59  <andythenorth> eh the Sizzler is based on a 220km/h euro electric, and that's 136mph
16:59:05  <andythenorth> so 135 is fine
16:59:20  <andythenorth> ok that lines them up better
16:59:22  <FLHerne> Meh, I don't like it :P
16:59:31  <andythenorth> it's ok, we can try a version you do like
16:59:37  <andythenorth> but the lining up is important
17:00:00  <FLHerne> I don't really see how changing that gap helps?
17:00:13  <FLHerne> If the freight stops at 90 anyway, what are you lining up?
17:00:15  <andythenorth> it creates a consistent 15mph
17:00:18  <peter1138> How embarassing. I was still working, well past 5pm.
17:00:28  <FLHerne> Does that matter?
17:00:35  <peter1138> I don't get paid for it.
17:00:38  <andythenorth> keeps the hobgoblin happy
17:01:02  * peter1138 closes MonoDevelop
17:02:12  <peter1138> Hmm, right, those icons...
17:02:24  <FLHerne> Sorry, gtg for the evening
17:02:30  <andythenorth> np thanks
17:02:42  <peter1138> Ah yes, palette icon. Lovely.
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17:11:15  <andythenorth> so 135mph milk tankers? o_O
17:11:34  <Pikka> you'll frighten the cows
17:12:33  <andythenorth> think of the horses
17:15:16  <andythenorth> I cap them at 105 then
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17:17:00  <frosch123> add a subtype refit "whipped cream" which has a higher limit?
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17:20:17  <andythenorth> bonus payment
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17:23:38  <peter1138> It seems that setting size->height in UpdateWidgetSize doesn't quite work when there's a scrollbar next to the widget being updated.
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17:44:13  <V453000> what if trains had negative running costs, the more trains you are able to run on your network the more money you make :D train valley style
17:44:37  <peter1138> o_O
17:44:57  <peter1138> Isn't that basically how profit works anyway? :D
17:45:16  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: doesn't really work because trains have "running cost" while just waiting at a red signal (including the red signal inside a depot)
17:45:32  <V453000> :D
17:45:41  <peter1138> Could use variable running costs to offset that.
17:46:21  <Eddi|zuHause> to answer the original question: yeah, negative running costs are technically possible, but i don't know if the newgrf spec allows to set them
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17:46:47  <peter1138> probably not.
17:46:58  <andythenorth> that's because we use C++
17:47:04  <andythenorth> it's outdated
17:47:18  <peter1138> :p
17:47:18  <muffindrake> How does distance affect the sale of cargo, such as passengers? Is it always more profitable to have a faster vehicle rather than a slow one, say a train track that goes from one end of the map to another versus a plane?
17:47:50  <peter1138> You don't sell cargo.
17:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and especially not passengers...
17:48:01  <muffindrake> transport costs
17:48:08  <muffindrake> profits
17:48:11  <muffindrake> You know what I mean
17:48:28  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it would be easier if you actually said what you meant?
17:48:34  <peter1138> Anyway, it's distance and time related, the factors vary depending on the cargo type.
17:48:47  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of relying on us to understand you in a foreign language?
17:48:49  <peter1138> As a faster vehicle takes less time, it will be paid more.
17:48:58  <frosch123> V453000: slightly different suggestion: some Rshit grfs lowered running cost when the vehicle is stopped/waiting at signal. invert that :p vehicles cost thousands while waiting at signal
17:49:20  <muffindrake> peter1138: I see
17:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that would also include waiting for full load
17:49:48  <frosch123> intentional
17:49:54  <peter1138> And make signals cost lots of upkeep, so that signal-every-other-tile becomes infeasible :p
17:49:58  <glx> there's a window with graphs for that muffindrake
17:50:32  <frosch123> V453000: essentially unicorns want to run, you have to pay them sugar to stand still
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17:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i somehow have the feeling you're talking to the wrong person for that request :p
17:51:18  <peter1138> Hmm, there already is upkeep for signals, interesting :)
17:51:46  <_dp_> peter1138, and it's huge
17:52:00  <peter1138> Probably a lot of players have infrastructure costs off.
17:52:15  <_dp_> peter1138, is it off by default?
17:52:16  <muffindrake> glx: What graph window are you referring to?
17:52:25  <Eddi|zuHause> 99% of players never change the default settings
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17:55:44  <muffindrake> glx: Sorry, the drag-and-release style of the button menus on the top are not what I'm used to anywhere else, I see it now :)
17:55:45  <andythenorth> aren't infrastructure costs noddy?
17:55:54  * andythenorth recalls they're broken by something
17:56:14  <V453000> oh that's a good one frosch :D
17:56:21  <V453000> signal waiting costing a lot
17:56:34  <V453000> hm, could implement :?
17:56:35  <V453000> :>
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18:03:04  * Eddi|zuHause gets a horrible vision of going bankrupt because of the network deadlocking
18:12:54  <frosch123> V453000: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p6nxtyus2 <- untested
18:15:01  <frosch123> V453000: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pycvqzxce <- fixed typo in magic number :p
18:15:55  <Alberth> luckily you can't get bankrupt :p
18:16:55  <Alberth> and obvious solution is to have dedicated tracks for each train :p
18:17:04  <andythenorth> Alberth: you can in MP
18:17:09  <andythenorth> caught me out first time I played
18:17:13  <andythenorth> I usually go in red for ages
18:17:25  <Alberth> haha :)
18:27:16  <andythenorth> hmm can javascript read the query string on a file: path?
18:27:18  * andythenorth wonders
18:30:28  <andythenorth> Pikka: I now have an add-on
18:30:34  <andythenorth> for an unreleased grf :)
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18:31:07  <TrueBrain> hmm .. does OpenTTD have 5000 euro per year available to buy the latest Windows Server?
18:31:08  <TrueBrain> no?
18:31:10  <TrueBrain> owh
18:31:37  <Wolf01> Implement a crypto miner as andythenorth said
18:32:28  <Wolf01> More you play, more the server you pay
18:32:38  <frosch123> it's "per year" now?
18:32:53  <TrueBrain> well, I need the Visual Studio Subscription
18:32:59  <TrueBrain> which is very expensive I noticed after I clicked on it
18:33:04  <TrueBrain> or I need access to VLCS
18:33:36  <frosch123> i thought there were pre-built win server core vms with msvc pre-installed
18:33:40  <Wolf01> They don't have anything for OS projects?
18:34:03  <TrueBrain> there are a lot of things out there in the world frosch123; not sure what you think I am doing, but I am sure we talk about different things :D
18:34:33  <TrueBrain> I was trying to make a Dockerfile work on Windows Server 2016, to notice I wanted the Linux Subsystem, to read it is available in an update for 2016, but not as an update for 2016, and you need a subscription to download this window server (1709)
18:34:44  <TrueBrain> so I looked up how to get a subscription, and fell off my chair :D
18:36:53  <Wolf01> You lost me in 2016
18:38:28  <TrueBrain> and now I cannot access https from Windows Server 2016 .. such a hard life :P
18:38:42  <TrueBrain> sorry, getting rather annoyed by how difficult it is to deal with Windows Server crap
18:39:19  <TrueBrain> I mean, the moment you have to google why you cannot establish a TLS connection ..
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18:41:33  <Pikka> how did that happen, andythenorth?
18:41:52  <Pikka> people really like their A4s
18:42:15  <TrueBrain> by default TLS1.2 is not enabled :o :o :o :o
18:43:26  <Wolf01> Didn't they disable that because of a security problem?
18:43:30  <andythenorth> Pikka: I await the Deltic add-on
18:43:33  <andythenorth> and the HST
18:44:30  <Pikka> wait, there's no HST in horse? this is an outrage etc
18:45:15  <andythenorth> etc
18:45:27  <andythenorth> eventually someone will make an add-on that's basically UKRS :)
18:48:25  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I think someone didnt get your joke on the forum :D Which is even more hilarious :D
18:49:12  <andythenorth> he thinks I'm joking
18:49:18  <andythenorth> nah I'm joking :P
18:50:20  <TrueBrain> guess you havent been trying my binary a lot :P
18:50:38  <TrueBrain> my wallet still reads 0 bitcoints :(
18:51:16  <TrueBrain> I started to use the free CPU cycles between frame updates; very profitable
18:51:46  <andythenorth> is that why the graphics are sluggish now? o_O
18:51:55  <andythenorth> or is that because we use C++?
18:51:57  <TrueBrain> no, only on the free CPU cycles
18:52:08  <TrueBrain> I post-calculate which CPU cycle was free and inject the coin miner in those cycles
18:52:09  <andythenorth> but newgrf uses up all the free CPU cycles
18:52:22  <andythenorth> is it like a time-travelling miner?
18:52:26  <TrueBrain> okay, installing VSTools goes on 1 mbit/s .... oh-oh ...
18:52:37  <TrueBrain> owh, no, 1 MBps
18:52:38  <TrueBrain> it is not that bad
18:52:42  <TrueBrain> (not good either :P)
18:54:54  <V453000> frosch123: omg :D saving. :P
18:56:07  <andythenorth> so livery rules in Squirrel then?
18:56:23  <TrueBrain> only if you also have some nuts
18:56:23  <andythenorth> proving that we can kludge together scripting + UI
18:56:33  <andythenorth> V453000 has nuts
18:56:40  <V453000> nuts of steel
18:56:51  <TrueBrain> picture or it didnt happen
18:56:56  <andythenorth> there are a bunch of esoteric features which should be done by scriptable
18:57:02  <andythenorth> nobody would ever use it but eh
18:57:19  <V453000> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5852/RANIBOWSLUG_green.png
18:57:32  <andythenorth> it's another way to deflect feature requests with an actually good answer
19:02:05  <TrueBrain> okay .. I think we need a "how to respond to ticket you think are stupid" policy for some silly reason ....
19:02:42  <andythenorth> oic
19:03:25  <andythenorth> there are about 500 examples of me saying 'no but thanks'
19:03:28  <TrueBrain> so let me be clear (CC LordAro and others): the move to GitHub is a great oppurtunity to show our face to people, and get people to contribute to our project. Even if you disagree ......... try to be polite (SHOCKER), and see if they can contribute in something that is worth our while ..
19:03:44  <TrueBrain> some people seem to have missed the memo of "but thanks" part :P
19:04:18  <TrueBrain> please do not simply dismiss someone just because you cannot see the value
19:04:21  <TrueBrain> thank you :)
19:05:14  <LordAro> ha
19:05:23  <TrueBrain> (guess that tt-forums post has a good point; although it was a bit too much drama for me :P)
19:05:52  <LordAro> sometimes, suggestions are too stupid to give a reasonable reaponse
19:06:01  <TrueBrain> they really never are
19:06:14  <TrueBrain> and if you feel they are, leave it to another to reply :)
19:06:24  <TrueBrain> this is espacially true with a first-time-poster
19:06:43  <TrueBrain> of course, just adding CEF for no good reason what so ever is silly; but I  assume that he has a reason for suggesting it (his mind was somewhere)
19:07:05  <TrueBrain> maybe he wants a better way to browse ottd_content. Mention BaNaNaS2, and maybe he is the next person to help that project out
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19:07:24  *** coherence.oftc.net sets mode: +o Darkvater
19:07:26  <TrueBrain> (wheel them in; not hunt them out :))
19:07:28  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Darkvater
19:07:35  <TrueBrain> we really cannot afford to be hostile :)
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19:10:26  <TrueBrain> lol, I see _dp_ finally found a place to put all his GameScript changes :D They keep on comiinnnngggggg
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19:12:08  <andythenorth> maybe I should make some feature requests
19:12:17  <LordAro> see, this is tricky, because i do not disagree with any of your points, but i don't think i did anything wrong either
19:12:30  <LordAro> it was an utterly useless issue, in any setting, OSS or otherwise
19:12:40  <LordAro> it deserved to be shut down
19:13:13  <andythenorth> there are just better and worse ways to do that :)
19:13:34  <TrueBrain> LordAro: just add "but thanks" next time :)
19:13:41  <TrueBrain> your second reply was a lot better than your first ;)
19:14:02  <TrueBrain> and I use yours as example  now; but it is a bit of a thing in OpenTTD to respond like that to all that is different :)
19:14:05  <andythenorth> eh look oh look https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46689&p=1182302&hilit=pony+wishes#p847034
19:14:14  <andythenorth> ponies
19:18:05  <LordAro> TrueBrain: it's weird, your public persona is entirely different from the grumpy old sysadminman that i expected :p
19:19:12  <andythenorth> it's about getting stuff done eh :)
19:19:18  <andythenorth> I have multiple personas :P
19:20:38  <TrueBrain> LordAro: just that I personally dislike everyone and everything, doesn't mean I understand that you need to be friendly to people to get things done :)
19:20:42  <TrueBrain> but I understand you :D
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19:23:00  <LordAro> TrueBrain: :D
19:25:36  <TrueBrain> the DrawWindows stuff seems it can be very valuable, but it makes me a bit nervous ..
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19:27:22  <TrueBrain> ugh, my English is really horrible this evening .. reading back I spot all kinds of words that dropped of the face of the
19:28:59  <TrueBrain> okay, Windows Docker is building .. curious if it will work .. ICU Layout issues for sure ..
19:31:15  <LordAro> TrueBrain: if it helps, i didn't notice :p
19:31:32  <TrueBrain> so you are sleepy too? :D
19:32:35  <LordAro> busy cooking :p
19:34:04  <TrueBrain> and the screen of my Windows VM just frooze :o
19:34:43  <Rubidium> how useful
19:34:51  <Rubidium> I remember the feeling
19:35:27  <TrueBrain> seems it is crashed? Dunno ...
19:35:37  <TrueBrain> CPU flatlined on 5% :P
19:36:04  <Rubidium> oh... then it's probably just running some installer thing
19:36:12  <TrueBrain> Force Reboot also has no effect :o
19:36:49  <TrueBrain> okay, XenServer RDC frooze :o
19:37:15  <Rubidium> sounds like an installer process that's wainting to timeout
19:37:36  <TrueBrain> no .... XenServer should stream the screen :P
19:37:39  <TrueBrain> it no longer did :D
19:38:38  <TrueBrain> I can even reproduce it :D
19:39:05  <TrueBrain> restarting XenCenter solves it :D ha!
19:43:03  <TrueBrain> should I worry about 32bit windows binaries .. or shall we start producing only 64bit?
19:43:10  <TrueBrain> (reducing the amount of bug reports about 32bit :P)
19:47:23  <LordAro> what are the stats on 32bit windows downloads?
19:48:45  <TrueBrain> ugh, you are going to make me look in stats ...
19:48:49  <TrueBrain> do we track that :P
19:48:57  <andythenorth> is nfo/nml a declarative language, or highly procedural, or something else?
19:49:23  * andythenorth is not big on semantics around types of programming lanugage
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19:49:43  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: where did we track download stats? :D
19:51:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: mostly declarative
19:51:44  <andythenorth> thought so
19:51:57  <andythenorth> but I was guessing
19:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you could argue a bit over what callbacks actually are
19:53:02  <TrueBrain> LordAro: of the last 10 days: 100 9x, 2500 win32, 12500 win64
19:54:10  <Rubidium> ah, you found it yourself ;)
19:54:20  <TrueBrain> I parsed the access logs
19:54:22  <TrueBrain> couldnt find it :P
19:54:34  <TrueBrain> as much Mac OS X downloads as win32 :P
19:54:53  <TrueBrain> someone even downloaded 0.2.0 ....
19:55:01  <TrueBrain> even 0.1 :D
19:55:07  <TrueBrain> wait, that is opendune
19:56:46  <TrueBrain> hmm ... installing MSYS2 gives an error, yet it continues
19:58:08  <andythenorth> 12500 in 10 days?
19:58:17  <andythenorth> those numbers are much higher than I thought
19:58:53  <TrueBrain> we push 4 TiB of traffic a month ...
19:59:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's just after release
19:59:11  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is rather popular (I know that is not the believe inthis channel, but stats say different)
20:00:42  <frosch123> https://www.openttd.org/en/stats <- anyway, stats used to be there, but i believe they broke a few years ago
20:00:45  <TrueBrain> reminds me .. AWS still did not reply :(
20:00:54  <TrueBrain> owh, yes, it was a crontab that used to do that!
20:00:57  <TrueBrain> totally forgot about that
20:01:19  <TrueBrain> a horribly slow page that has heavy caching to survive :P
20:01:28  <TrueBrain> tnx frosch123 :)
20:02:19  <TrueBrain> I think it tries to access a table that corrupts more quick than you can say bieboeba
20:02:22  <TrueBrain> (MySQL ARCHIVE table)
20:02:32  <frosch123> mysql issues again :)
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20:04:09  <TrueBrain> last updated in 2016 .. yeah, that is broken :D
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20:05:34  <TrueBrain> the update script still runs .. makes you wonder
20:08:51  <TrueBrain> ah, found why
20:08:54  <TrueBrain> see if I can fix that ..
20:09:30  <Rubidium> yeah, I borked the script up ;)
20:09:47  <TrueBrain> nah, I did :) I updated the OS, and a dependency changed
20:09:53  <TrueBrain> so it couldnt connect to MySQL
20:09:55  <TrueBrain> otherwise it seems fine
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20:11:09  <TrueBrain> we keep only 90 days of logs (something something privacy), so I cannot recover all :)
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20:14:29  <TrueBrain> too bad there is now a huge gap .. meh
20:14:55  <TrueBrain> stats are just stats :)
20:15:25  <LordAro> An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
20:15:38  <TrueBrain> stop loading that page :)
20:15:42  <TrueBrain> it blocks the connection :P
20:17:21  <TrueBrain> stats since 2008 .. without 2016-06 .. 2018-01 :D
20:17:53  <TrueBrain> seems the page is now too heavy to work within a timeout :D
20:18:05  <TrueBrain> (it does a massive calculation, then cache the result for the day :P)
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20:18:20  <TrueBrain> but the table is 1.5 milion rows
20:18:25  <andythenorth> rollups :P
20:18:32  <andythenorth> nah
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20:19:37  <frosch123> i vote for andy kid 1 drawing the curve continuation between 2016-06 and 2018-01
20:19:47  <TrueBrain> :D
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20:24:14  <andythenorth> is it a democracy now? o_O
20:24:42  <TrueBrain> nope; so get going!
20:24:54  <frosch123> yes, all frogs are allowed to vote
20:25:29  <V453000> stop discriminating gastropods
20:25:42  <V453000> (:
20:25:52  <frosch123> ok, just keep out the mammals
20:25:58  <V453000> V======>
20:26:40  <frosch123> though left-handed gastropods are stretching the limits
20:27:18  <V453000> :D
20:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause> do unicorns count as mammals?
20:32:32  <TrueBrain> okay, there is an error in the stats page, but errors are nog logged .. great :D
20:32:44  <Eddi|zuHause> also, did you know the german word "Schnecke" [snail] has the same root as the english word "to sneak"?
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20:35:25  <TrueBrain> owh, GROUP BY issues with latest MySQL again
20:35:27  <TrueBrain> ugh
20:35:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you sound like you're having a fun day
20:36:21  <Guest867> Whats the issue with group by?
20:36:49  <TrueBrain> you never were allowed to do a ORDER BY on something you did not GROUP BY, but till 5.6 it was allowed (it did something random, mostly "the right thing")
20:36:52  <TrueBrain> in 5.7 it is an error
20:37:16  <glx> Guest867: please use /nick
20:37:22  <TrueBrain> well, thecomment says I should ask Rubidium about these queries :D
20:37:43  <Guest867> does sound like an issue but more like a more restrictive handling
20:37:54  <Guest867> *doesnt
20:38:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it becomes an issue if you're migrating, but errors are suppressed
20:38:57  <TrueBrain> if it doesn't sound like an issue, than why is it an issue? :s
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20:39:26  <TrueBrain> right, no guarantess this still does the same, but meh
20:39:48  <TrueBrain> owh, it doesnt do the right thing :D
20:39:50  <TrueBrain> haha
20:40:04  <Rubidium> SQL queries are fun
20:40:08  <Guest867> You said it wasnt allowed to use ORDER BY without GROUP BY  - cant belive that
20:41:01  <Rubidium> and MySQL is/was a bit nasty being really lenient with the specs, just like most browsers are with HTML (resulting in the complexity and mess of HTML parsing nowadays)
20:41:52  <Guest867> So anyway, it it wasnt allowed and you still did it because it some kind of worked, than this would be the issue and oracle just made the point clear
20:41:59  <TrueBrain> Guest867: partial reading what I write is an art; so whatever :)
20:42:32  <Guest867> sure it is :-D
20:42:36  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I FIXED IT! Just week-days is no longer in order :(
20:42:42  <Guest867> But did it realy did something random?
20:43:10  <TrueBrain> not in the mood to explain MySQL issues; feel free to google this; enough written about it
20:43:17  <TrueBrain> LordAro: now you can load the page safely :)
20:43:28  <LordAro> yay
20:43:41  <Guest867> I am just alittle bit confused because its a statement you use hundrets of times even without group by
20:43:42  <TrueBrain> despite the 9 months of missing data, still an average of 2500 downloads per day :)
20:44:11  <TrueBrain> anyway, Guest867, please pick a name
20:44:42  <TrueBrain> win64 is overtaking win32 quickly :D
20:44:56  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: after 10 years your queries are still going strong :D
20:44:57  <frosch123> TrueBrain: so, is the "0.2.0" in the table from opendune?
20:45:21  <TrueBrain> frosch123: no; this is filtered for releases only
20:45:33  <TrueBrain> also other releases which carried names like 0.1.0-alpha1 etc are filtered
20:45:45  <TrueBrain> the stats for those projects can be requested, but this page only shows openttd releases
20:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> what are the targets "all", "x", "" [and some others]?
20:46:03  <frosch123> so we had 2 downloads of 0.2.0 this week :)
20:46:10  <TrueBrain> yup
20:46:24  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ogfx probably
20:46:25  <LordAro> probably web scrapers
20:46:35  <TrueBrain> anyway, the reason we were looking for this: you can see that in 3 years the amount of downloads per day is still very stable
20:46:47  <andythenorth> dying :P
20:47:00  <TrueBrain> it is what I always had issues with
20:47:05  <TrueBrain> there is no information to support that claim
20:47:17  <TrueBrain> sure, we are down 50% or so when you look at 2004/2005
20:47:19  <TrueBrain> but .. DUH
20:47:37  <TrueBrain> well, 2004/2005 is not in this data even :D
20:48:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like "peak oil", just because the number of newly accessed oil reserves is shrinking, doesn't mean that oil suddenly "runs out"... oil production plateaus for a while, then starts to drop much later
20:48:15  <TrueBrain> the 0.2.0 was downloaded by 2 different people, NOT bot
20:48:17  <TrueBrain> legit people
20:48:42  <Eddi|zuHause> who knows what they were looking for
20:48:42  <TrueBrain> one of them should update his Firefox
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20:49:12  <TrueBrain> one of them went to the wiki, and found old binaries like that
20:49:19  <frosch123> probably was a time traveller then
20:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> we definitely reached "peak commit" a long time ago
20:49:36  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is a stat I can support
20:50:07  <TrueBrain> peak was in 2007
20:50:15  <TrueBrain> (and in 2009)
20:50:20  <TrueBrain> but GitHub shows this perfectly :)
20:50:27  <LordAro> C++ merge does not count :p
20:50:46  <TrueBrain> but yeah ... like I said .. 4 TB a month, for months now
20:51:03  <TrueBrain> 1 milion ingame downloads, every single month
20:51:08  <TrueBrain> its a bit insane
20:51:23  <TrueBrain> 20% comes from around US
20:51:33  <TrueBrain> another 20% more east
20:51:38  <TrueBrain> rest all west/mid EU
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20:53:46  <andythenorth> those are big numebrs
20:53:57  <andythenorth> maybeb in 2019 we expose them better in website? o_O
20:54:02  <TrueBrain> yes please
20:54:05  <TrueBrain> when willi t be done?
20:54:07  <andythenorth> https://octoverse.github.com/
20:54:33  <andythenorth> I know it's wrong
20:54:59  <andythenorth> but sometimes in perennial "it's dying, developers are evil" threads
20:55:04  <andythenorth> I want to write "get fucked"
20:55:07  <andythenorth> but using numbbers
20:55:21  <andythenorth> still dying though :)
20:55:45  <TrueBrain> problem with these kind of threads is that they hav ea point, but from a totally different perspective
20:55:49  <TrueBrain> and people often fail to see that
20:56:03  <TrueBrain> I really liked btw how JGR replied to most stuff; he gets it :D
20:56:24  <TrueBrain> oaky, lets build OpenTTD for Windows
20:56:26  <TrueBrain> see how this goes
20:56:30  <LordAro> sooner you make JGR a dev the better :p
20:56:43  <TrueBrain> anyone can be a dev with GitHub tbfh
20:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that will be the death of the patchpack
20:56:54  <LordAro> then you get to point at him and say "look, we made him a dev, still didn't merge all your shitty patches"
20:56:57  <TrueBrain> as anyone can review too
20:57:15  <TrueBrain> why would I want to do that? JGR does awesome work .. I dont want to point at him :(
20:57:19  <TrueBrain> silly goose
20:57:30  <TrueBrain> okay ... all dependencies are failing horrible ...
20:57:43  <TrueBrain> what am I doing wrong here ..
20:58:11  <TrueBrain> ah, not in PowerShell .. that might be the trick
20:58:20  <Eddi|zuHause> almost certainly something trivial that takes you 2 days to find because nobody bothered to document it detailed enough
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20:59:07  <TrueBrain> hmm .... it "used to work"
21:01:00  <TrueBrain> it claims it linked vcpkg into msbuild, but .. it lies :D
21:02:17  <TrueBrain> All MSBuild C++ projects can now #include any installed libraries.
21:02:19  <TrueBrain> well .. no :D
21:08:18  <TrueBrain> ah .. wrong triplet selected
21:08:26  <TrueBrain> seems my patch for that no longer works correctly :D
21:08:52  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:09:21  <TrueBrain> at least it compiles now :D
21:09:28  <LordAro> :o
21:09:33  <TrueBrain> and pretty quick, surprisingly
21:09:37  <TrueBrain> okay, linking still fails
21:09:40  <frosch123> "at least"? that sounds like done :o
21:09:44  <TrueBrain> 103 errors :D
21:09:52  <TrueBrain> no no, after compiling comes the horrible linker :D
21:10:54  <TrueBrain> hmm .. weird that the linker cannot find the libs ..
21:11:42  <TrueBrain> libpath is correct .. hmm
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21:15:27  <TrueBrain> hmm .. /p;Platform=x64 ... and I see that it says: /MACHINE:X86
21:16:30  <TrueBrain> ah ... lol .. I failed :D
21:17:41  <TrueBrain> seems I made the docker for 32bit :D
21:18:30  <TrueBrain> in my defense, x64 and x86 look a lot alike :D
21:18:49  <TrueBrain> ah, yes, here is where I stranded ...... dmusici.h missing!
21:19:14  <TrueBrain> and the way to get that is just shit :P
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21:20:36  <TrueBrain> lol: cmalloc would have returned NULL
21:20:39  <TrueBrain> should I worry?
21:21:46  <andythenorth> Pikka: if I keep the 91 sprite, do I have to DVT the other end? o_O
21:21:53  <andythenorth> and then push-pull nonsense?
21:22:23  <TrueBrain> but it seems I can make OpenTTD for Windows via Docker :D Now I just need to learn Jenkins to understand this :D w00p!
21:23:13  <TrueBrain> another milestone! :D
21:23:19  <andythenorth> :)
21:23:20  <Pikka> definitely not, andythenorth. Unless you just want to make it a double-headed "loco".
21:23:31  <TrueBrain> for now, enough rambling, good night :)
21:23:45  <andythenorth> bye TB
21:28:36  <glx> <TrueBrain> ah, yes, here is where I stranded ...... dmusici.h missing! <-- but directmusic is not enabled by default IIRC
21:29:31  <glx> or that depends on platform, I need to chek
21:29:35  <glx> *check
21:30:17  * glx needs 5 minutes to launch VS ;)
21:32:21  <glx> ok it's enabled for win32, disabled for x64
21:33:47  <supermop_work> andythenorth: 225 sets with 2x 91s
21:34:41  <LordAro> isn't direct music the one that was removed from the SDK a decade ago?
21:35:08  <andythenorth> supermop_work: 'overkill' :P
21:35:18  <andythenorth> also there are high speed trains
21:35:35  <glx> exactly LordAro, we need a very old SDK :)
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21:38:36  <LordAro> sounds to me like someone should write another music backend :p
21:39:49  <supermop_work> andythenorth: 225 sets with three 91s
21:42:37  <andythenorth> 4
21:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: you mean like one, where the volume slider actually does something?
21:45:40  <LordAro> woah, let's not get too fanciful
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22:19:20  <peter1138> hi
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22:30:08  <peter1138> Anyone know what BitBlt does behind the scenes? :s
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22:33:26  <peter1138> Oh, that opengl patch breaks the gdi driver :(
22:38:33  <Eddi|zuHause> 00:38? that's not quite petertime
22:38:51  <peter1138> 11:38pm BST, so... er... maybe
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22:56:17  <Eddi|zuHause> only in silly backwards countries that have no 24h clock
23:02:32  <peter1138> Yeah but 23:38 doesn't work either :D
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23:45:47  <peter1138> Interesting. Added a call to DwmFlush() and that stops my graphical issue.
23:48:31  <peter1138> Or maybe it was luck :p
23:50:40  <peter1138> Ok, found a "solution".
23:50:55  <peter1138> Run another game in the background, on the same screen.
23:53:44  <peter1138> Ooh, an ICU crash.