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Log for #openttd on 2nd October 2019:
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03:59:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Wirdal commented on issue #7592: Road vehicles don't balance between multiple loading bays https://git.io/fjlL0
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08:54:02  <andythenorth> yo
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09:05:30  <Samu> hi
09:06:02  <peter1138> Hello
09:06:06  <peter1138> Is it lunch yet?
09:06:30  <Samu> no
09:08:45  <peter1138> Figures.
09:09:00  <peter1138> Already had breakfast today anyway so... just being greedy.
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09:12:54  <Samu> https://imgur.com/3QLFv8U
09:15:12  <Samu> there was a recession at the end of 2091. RailwAI is approaching first place. WormAI has fallen to 3rd.
09:15:56  <peter1138> > Most viral images > Fat guy's boobs...
09:16:44  <andythenorth> ha
09:16:45  <andythenorth> 2014/09/28/16:51 <@peter1138> I should implement roadtypes just to spite you :D
09:16:56  <andythenorth> found by accident
09:17:00  <peter1138> Nice.
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09:17:08  * andythenorth thinking about snowploughs :P
09:17:29  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno what parts of the internet you people are using
09:18:06  <Samu> WormAI has a problem with recessions
09:18:34  <Samu> everytime it is appoaching first, and a recession happens, it starts a slight decline
09:18:47  <andythenorth> is there a hidden var for total town population on the map?
09:18:49  * andythenorth can't find one
09:19:05  <andythenorth> had an idea about each industry requiring x total population
09:19:06  <Samu> yes,
09:19:27  <Samu> somewhere in display town directory gui
09:19:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it's calculated for the town list window, aafair
09:19:34  <andythenorth> not newgrf, doesn't count :)
09:19:38  <andythenorth> tying industry production to population is tedious
09:19:51  <andythenorth> but tying industry construction to population might be interesting
09:20:32  <andythenorth> unrelated, I can't find pikka's snowplough :P
09:20:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well, banks check for population
09:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and some ECS industries check for population nearby
09:21:43  <peter1138> Samu, you can link to just the image as well, btw. https://i.imgur.com/3QLFv8U.png < Does not have a side-bar full of semi-naked fat men.
09:22:09  <andythenorth> checking for population nearby could work, it just seems more likely to go wrong
09:22:15  <andythenorth> and need more text writing to explain it
09:22:53  <Samu> https://i.imgur.com/3QLFv8U.png
09:22:56  <planetmaker> tying population to industry production will fail for different house newgrfs... they all have different ideas on what population density should be
09:23:16  <andythenorth> hmm
09:23:32  <andythenorth> yes
09:23:41  <andythenorth> well *not* making changes is much easier :)
09:23:56  * andythenorth trying to find any reason to even have towns on the map
09:24:03  <andythenorth> they seem to just get in the way of industries
09:24:03  <planetmaker> checking for num_houses and their town_zone might be the more portable approach
09:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, not brexiting would be way easier
09:24:24  <andythenorth> am I playing the wrong game?
09:24:34  <andythenorth> maybe I am confusing OpenTTD with F
09:25:25  <planetmaker> F is happy to break mod interfaces
09:26:14  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i guess F is also moving much faster
09:26:28  <planetmaker> and only has one... instead of like... 3 or 4
09:26:46  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you can't change them, you need to add more :p
09:26:53  <andythenorth> hmm
09:27:11  <andythenorth> as FIRS evolves, noticeable accidental trend is removal of all the town cargos
09:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> remember when TrueBrain wanted to add another one? :p
09:27:35  <planetmaker> honestly no: when was that and what?
09:27:46  <Eddi|zuHause> about a year ago
09:28:22  <andythenorth> about 6 months ago, and it was a compile-time API to the existing APIs afaict
09:28:58  <planetmaker> he
09:29:07  <andythenorth> then TB ran into the sadness
09:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause> or the madness?
09:29:32  <andythenorth> well the APIs are a terrible mess
09:29:35  <peter1138> Someone joked and that killed it off.
09:29:35  <planetmaker> that lies close together
09:29:38  <andythenorth> and yet the game I'm playing right now is fun
09:29:42  <andythenorth> and making newgrfs is fun
09:30:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you finishing the town layout patch, it's sooooooo much better
09:30:07  <andythenorth> also rivers :P
09:30:18  <planetmaker> well... inventing a new API would result in https://xkcd.com/927/
09:30:27  <andythenorth> stop teasing with 50% done patches that make worthwhile changes :P
09:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm sure nobody noted that before :p
09:30:43  <planetmaker> :P
09:30:51  <planetmaker> however... lunch time now :D
09:30:55  <andythenorth> oof lunch
09:31:00  * andythenorth elevenses
09:32:11  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, that link only appears about 19 times in the log of the last 10 years
09:33:08  <andythenorth> do we need a new API? :D
09:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not 11:38 yet
09:33:45  * andythenorth must get on a bike
09:33:47  <andythenorth> BIAB
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10:03:59  <Samu> trivia - destroying a UFO destroys houses if near houses?
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10:06:06  <Samu> the answer is yes
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10:58:48  <Samu> https://i.imgur.com/anZiAZS.png
10:59:38  <Samu> the explosion is a bit off
10:59:59  <Samu> it affects more squares than the fiery thing
11:10:25  <peter1138> Could be broken sprite offsets, seeing as it doesn't affect some of the top tiles.
11:10:31  <peter1138> Try it with the proper base set.
11:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so, did the bike have lunch?
11:12:28  <Samu> proper base set?
11:12:33  <Samu> it's opengfx
11:12:42  <peter1138> Samu, TTD original.
11:13:20  <Samu> i dont have that here
11:13:37  <peter1138> Well you should.
11:13:47  <andythenorth> my bike needs feeding
11:13:49  <andythenorth> battery is flat
11:13:53  <andythenorth> forgot to plug it in
11:14:06  <andythenorth> much slower :P
11:14:06  <peter1138> You still have legs.
11:14:12  <andythenorth> yes I used legs
11:14:19  <andythenorth> legs are required with or without battery
11:14:30  <andythenorth> it's just more fun going everywhere at 25mph
11:14:42  <andythenorth> oops, that would be illegal
11:14:50  <andythenorth> that doesn't actually happen of course
11:15:01  <andythenorth> funny, can ride a pushbike as fast you like
11:15:19  <andythenorth> but an assisted bike is not permitted to do more than 17mph
11:15:58  <peter1138> Yes, but the assumption is the average cyclist will be doing 10mph on the pavement anyway...
11:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> tell that to the tour de france?
11:16:25  <peter1138> They're not exactly average.
11:16:38  <peter1138> They also take more drugs.
11:16:43  <peter1138> Sorry, medication.
11:16:50  <andythenorth> necessary medication
11:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: does that limit change if you have a moped driver license?
11:18:00  <andythenorth> it changes if you tax and insure the bike as a road vehicle
11:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that makes somewhat sense
11:18:24  <andythenorth> but then it can't be ridden on cycle paths, or in cycle lanes
11:23:58  <LordAro> NL seems to be quite happy with mopeds on their cycle paths
11:25:33  <Eddi|zuHause> NL has LOOOOTS of cycle paths, though :p
11:26:20  <peter1138> You'd need to get the bike type-approved. And fit number plates. And have an MOT.
11:26:49  <peter1138> So you might as well just get a moped :p
11:27:12  <peter1138> e-mopeds are a thing of course.
11:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, in germany electric bikes don't count as motor vehicle
11:27:33  <Eddi|zuHause> ... by research of about 5 minutes on wikipedia
11:28:22  <peter1138> e-bikes don't as long as they comply with the limits (power limit and must not be self-powered)
11:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ... if the motor has less than 250W and is limited to 25km/h
11:32:29  <andythenorth> maybe I should just tax and insure it, and get one with a really big motor :P
11:32:35  <andythenorth> I don't ride on many cycle paths
11:33:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ... if you get an insured version, you can go 45km/h apparently
11:33:48  <Eddi|zuHause> ... which is a really dangerous speed if you want to go on actual roads
11:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ... because everyone else will be going 60km/h (at 50km/h speed limit)
11:34:56  <planetmaker> Samu, what type of explosion is that?
11:35:11  <planetmaker> ufo?
11:35:20  <planetmaker> or refinery?
11:35:24  <peter1138> One of the UFOs
11:35:30  <peter1138> You can see the fighter jet.
11:35:45  <planetmaker> yeah. but that flies over the whole map from East to West :)
11:35:49  <peter1138> Which is a bomber really :p
11:36:00  <planetmaker> nah, the avanger :)
11:36:18  <peter1138> Yeah but the chances of a refinery explosion at the same time as the fighter...?
11:36:25  <planetmaker> 12% :P
11:36:35  <peter1138> OH THAT'LL NEVER HAPPEN
11:36:43  <peter1138> > Happens 75% of the time
11:37:59  <Eddi|zuHause> ... ok, this article descends into legalese which makes my head hurt, i'm going to stop...
11:42:02  <peter1138> So eccles cakes... why are they so high in carolies?
11:42:28  <planetmaker> calories are the carriers of taste. So...
11:43:37  <peter1138> They're like, sugar wrapped in a crust of sugar.
11:44:11  <planetmaker> yeah... taste is carried by or attached to sugar and fat usually :)
11:44:19  <planetmaker> or both
11:45:32  <Samu> it was a large UFO, landed on some house
11:46:05  <Samu> or maybe on clear terrain, adjacent to a house
11:46:14  <Samu> graphics were overlapping
11:47:10  <peter1138> That's why I suggested some sprite offset.
11:47:20  <peter1138> And therefore testing against the proper graphics.
11:47:43  <planetmaker> s/proper/often illegal/ ;)
11:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> since when do large ufos land on clear terrain?
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11:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> back in my days, they only landed on tracks
11:49:38  <peter1138> I was assuming it's clear due to having been bombed :p
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11:55:49  <Samu> competing for 1st place is heating up
11:56:20  <Samu> WormAI vs LuDiAI AfterFix vs RailwAI
12:06:17  <andythenorth> mmm
12:06:23  * andythenorth builds loads of connected docks 
12:06:34  <andythenorth> as many as 4
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12:19:17  <peter1138> Oh yeah. I just had lunch.
12:19:23  <andythenorth> tuna sandwich
12:19:26  <peter1138> Salad.
12:19:31  <andythenorth> hmm
12:19:34  <andythenorth> tuna is salad
12:19:35  <peter1138> With a bit of Port Salut cheese.
12:19:47  <peter1138> And a chunk of fruit cake.
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12:38:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I was wondering why fishing harbours don't come with a built-in dock? They definitely look like they should be one
12:43:41  <andythenorth> because $reasons
12:44:03  <andythenorth> would you like all of them, or just that one? :)
13:12:58  <FLHerne> More reasons would be interesting :P
13:22:58  <Eddi|zuHause> my prime reason would be lack of transfer from ship to train/truck
13:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you only really need dock at fishing harbor if you have separate fishing grounds
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14:08:17  <FLHerne> Well, a player can always build their own dock if needed
14:15:51  <andythenorth> reasons include...
14:16:06  <andythenorth> - don't want airports at fishing harbours, ports etc
14:16:44  <andythenorth> - shared dock tiles confuses cdist
14:16:53  <andythenorth> - shared dock tiles create accidental sharing in MP
14:17:10  <andythenorth> - there is only one dock tile, no multi-dock
14:17:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that last one is invalid now?
14:17:35  <andythenorth> oh maybe
14:18:07  <andythenorth> - there was a nearly-finished yexo patch queue for new ports, that provided control over industry dock tiles
14:18:38  <andythenorth> anyway, those are the reasons
14:18:45  <andythenorth> I don't hate the idea, it just seemed to have downsides
14:25:43  <andythenorth> eh
14:25:53  <andythenorth> flat docks anyone? o_O
14:25:55  <andythenorth> build on water
14:26:40  <Eddi|zuHause> only thing you really need is a GUI for it?
14:29:58  <nielsm> https://gankra.github.io/blah/text-hates-you/
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15:33:10  <Samu> difficult to see now who's leading
15:33:48  <Samu> LuDiAI AfterFix: 9
15:34:19  <Samu> RailwAI: 12
15:34:44  <Samu> WormAI: 3
15:34:51  <Samu> so RailwAI is leading
15:37:16  <Samu> year 2110, I'm finally overtaken :(
15:44:44  <supermop_work> do three track lines ever make sense?
15:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause> usually you want to give the trains as few choices as possible
15:45:46  <supermop_work> both in game and also in real life
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15:46:18  <supermop_work> the advantage of a peak direction only express seems not that useful
15:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there isn't really any "peak"
15:48:58  <supermop_work> as you can't have twice the capacity in one direction without trains piling up at the end
15:50:20  <supermop_work> and if you put 0.5 capacity of the 'down' line on each 'up' line, you might as well just run it two tracks
15:56:09  <supermop_work> Eddi|zuHause: yeah ofc there is no rush hour in game, but i cant really think of any other use cases
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16:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you have trains accelerate slow in one direction, you could double that track
16:16:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and alternate the trains between both
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16:17:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (usually that's only useful on station exits, once the trains are up to speed, you can join the two lines)
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16:36:32  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Hello again
16:36:56  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Is there a way to compile OpenTTD and make it use Alsa instead of the nightmare of PulseAudio?
16:37:09  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> like, completely and absolutely ignore pulseaudio
16:37:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Because it's still giving me nightmares
16:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause> there is nothing about pulseaudio that is included anywhere in the game
16:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> just disable pulseaudio
16:39:32  <Eddi|zuHause> on your system
16:40:45  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay so when i use "ldd openttd" and it tells me that it uses libpulse.so, what does that mean?
16:41:32  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> (just to be clear I'm completely ignorant of compilers and all that, so I can't really wrap my mind around this issues I'm facing with the game crashing when I try to use audio).
16:42:25  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> (I was able to compile and run the game but the thing is still obsessed with running pulseaudio and the OS i'm using has like problems with it)
16:43:55  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Right now I'm having execution time crashes due to pulseaudio vs alsa
16:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i would assume that's some secondary library
16:44:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so, like openttd links to some sound library, and that sound library links to pulse
16:45:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably tell ./configure to compile without sound
16:45:30  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> So, what I found out is that if I do in a terminal:" export SDL_AUDIODRIVER; openttd "
16:45:32  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> The game runs
16:45:35  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> and has sound
16:45:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> but If I reboot and try to run just "openttd" the thing crashes horribly
16:46:17  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/7757#issuecomment-537052845
16:46:20  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> And it gives me that
16:46:22  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could put that export in your .profile
16:46:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> So the whole system runs in alsa?
16:46:53  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> or whatever that export does
16:47:05  <Eddi|zuHause> export just sets the variable
16:47:17  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> " export SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa; openttd "
16:47:22  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah okay
16:47:29  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> maybe I can make an .sh script just for openttd
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16:47:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Is that the "best solution" or just a band-aid solution?
16:47:55  <Eddi|zuHause> if you make a script, or an alias, you can leave out the export, just "VAR=value program"
16:48:01  <Wolf01> Steam-turbine
16:48:22  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of "export VAR=value; program"
16:48:25  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah
16:48:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the export makes it remember it for future runs
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16:48:51  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> so line1: "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa" line2: "openttd"
16:48:55  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> in the script
16:48:59  <Wolf01> I made andy quit :(
16:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> no, all in one line
16:49:36  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah okay.
16:49:48  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> no ; or anything similar?
16:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> with a space inbetween
16:49:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay
16:50:18  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Still, it's just a band-aid solution, right?
16:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
16:50:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but i do this stuff all the time
16:50:43  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> bummer
16:50:44  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay, second issue
16:50:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I have no music. And I can't find any debug information about it
16:50:58  <Eddi|zuHause> like, in steam -> settings -> start options
16:51:15  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Like, the playlist just skips songs like crazy
16:51:28  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> as if it couldn't play any song
16:51:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It has something to do with midi libs?
16:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so, you got the songs installed, and selected the music set in the menu?
16:51:53  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Yes
16:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> you likely miss timidity
16:52:03  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay will look for it
16:52:18  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I have fluidsynth
16:52:23  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> has something to do with that?
16:52:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you can use that, but you have to add some command line option, which i don't know
16:52:54  <Eddi|zuHause> like, -m extmidi:somestuff
16:52:55  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay
16:52:57  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> lets see
16:53:22  <Eddi|zuHause> (you can add that to your script)
16:53:41  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> maybe on the ./configure
16:53:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that should be a run time option
16:54:06  <LordAro> fluidsynth support is a compile time thing, iirc
16:54:08  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can set it in the .cfg
16:54:16  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I have this on the configure:                                  enables icu components for locale specific string sorting
16:54:17  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>   --static-icu                   try to link statically (libsicu instead of
16:54:17  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>                                  libicu; can fail as the new
16:54:20  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> agh
16:54:21  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> sorry
16:54:34  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> --with-midi=midi               define which midi-player to use
16:54:35  <LordAro> extmidi support might have been (temporarily) removed in 1.9.x, i can't remember
16:54:46  <nielsm> extmidi is still supported
16:54:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>  --with-midi-arg=arg            define which args to use for the
16:54:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>                                  midi-player
16:54:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>   --with-libtimidity[="pkg-config libtimidity"]
16:54:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>                                  enables libtimidity support
16:54:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS>   --with-fluidsynth              enables fluidsynth support
16:54:49  <Eddi|zuHause> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: that looks wrong
16:54:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay
16:54:59  <nielsm> it's just not default if you have any other midi support
16:55:08  <nielsm> --with-midi is extmidi
16:55:31  <Eddi|zuHause> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: ok, you probably want --with-fluidsynth then
16:55:41  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay will try that and see if it blows up
16:55:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (i would assume it picks that up automatically if installed, though)
16:56:23  <nielsm> fluidsynth is the general best choice for softsynth midi on linux
16:56:32  <nielsm> (and there isn't any good choice for external/hardware synths)
16:57:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i should get a board with an ISA slot and see how my sound blaster AWE32 still works? :)
16:57:10  <nielsm> :D
16:57:24  <nielsm> it won't be useful on linux
16:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i once installed some soundblaster driver in win3.11 in my dosbox
16:58:29  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> hmm I am confused by the fact that when I try to do "make" again after another "make" the whole things errors out
16:59:07  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Like, if I compile with a fresh folder of the source code, it compiles fine, but If I do one compilation and then try to make another one it doesn't like it.
16:59:15  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should switch to HardOS? :p
16:59:19  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Any command to "clean up" the folder and leave it pristine?
16:59:20  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> HAHA
16:59:22  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> :(
16:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> "make clean"?
16:59:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> it "works" but doesn't work at the same time
16:59:52  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Like, doesn't clean completely
17:00:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there may be  "make distclean" or something
17:00:12  <milek7> weird, what error with incremential make?
17:00:17  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah yes
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17:00:51  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ah god dammit I'll just erase everything and start again
17:00:53  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> haha
17:01:35  <Eddi|zuHause> there's probably some git invocation that deletes all files that wouldn't be there on a clean checkout
17:02:08  <milek7> make mrproper clean everything
17:02:32  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I'll see if that makes the trick milek
17:02:54  <milek7> but it definitely should work without deleting everything each time ;P
17:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg
17:03:30  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> bye Eddi|zuHause , thanks
17:03:33  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe permissions or timestamps are messed up?
17:03:37  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make[1]: Entering directory '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/objs/extra_grf'
17:03:37  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make[1]: *** No rule to make target '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/bin/baseset/orig_dos.obg', needed by 'all'.  Stop.
17:03:37  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make[1]: Leaving directory '/mnt/sda7/EasyOS/home/projects/OpenTTD/openttd-1.9.3/objs/extra_grf'
17:03:37  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make: *** [Makefile:56: all] Error 1 "
17:03:44  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> that's the error if you want to know
17:03:57  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> There's no permissions Eddi|zuHause , easyos runs as root
17:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a horrible idea
17:04:16  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Ah, maybe
17:04:22  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> But I don't really care haha
17:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll really go now, or i'll have nightmares
17:05:18  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Sure thing, good night/day to you
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17:10:27  <milek7> about disabling pulseaudio, you could probably compile sdl without it
17:10:44  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I could but that would break firefox
17:11:01  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Because the devs of firefox decided that dropping alsa alltogether was a good idea.
17:12:24  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I only need that OpenTTD denies its existence.
17:13:22  <milek7> firefox depends on sdl?
17:13:26  *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:13:35  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Eh...
17:13:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay I have limits on what I know :)
17:13:49  <milek7> and there is that too: https://github.com/i-rinat/apulse
17:15:12  <milek7> anyway, maybe pulse deserved hate 10 years ago, but since few years it usually works ;P
17:15:35  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> haha
17:15:39  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It makes me unhappy
17:17:24  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I think I will go with the band-aid solution and try to get fluidsynth to work on the midi
17:18:46  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> on the help line at -/configure that puts: " --with-midi=midi " what are the possible options for "midi"?
17:20:04  <nielsm> the name of a program that will take the name of a midi file as a commandline parameter and play it
17:24:29  * andythenorth plays a game with a perfect map
17:24:36  <andythenorth> maybe regions aren't needed :P
17:24:47  <andythenorth> I generated about 30 maps to get this one :)
17:25:15  <andythenorth> unrelated, goose industry?
17:31:43  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ok, fluidsynth in you I trust
17:36:27  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It failed to me :(
17:45:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JecIy
17:45:50  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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17:51:44  <FLHerne> Idea: script that inspects the generated map after each stage (terrain, towns, industries, [?]) and accepts/rejects it
17:51:54  <FLHerne> If rejected, rollback to the previous step and try again
17:52:45  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like custom map generators on steroids
17:52:50  <FLHerne> No, for town/industry placement it would be easier to just have a script to do it...
17:54:10  <nielsm> well, how about just adding a map preparation phase to GS then, where it can execute as many ticks as it wants before players get control?
17:54:28  <nielsm> and allow it to snapshot the map during that to roll back
17:54:45  <nielsm> then the GS will be creating the towns and industries itself
17:55:21  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: i think the idea was to not go through the hassle of creating the towns and industries yourself, just check whether it looks good
17:55:34  <nielsm> Eddi|zuHause yes I get that
17:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> (not sure how that latter part would be easier)
17:55:44  <nielsm> but I reject that idea :)
17:55:51  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: That was the idea, and then I realised it was stupid :P
17:56:07  <FLHerne> Except maybe for terrain
17:56:28  <nielsm> instead of re-rolling a dice until you get a 6, just turn the dice to show 6 yourself :P
17:56:35  <Eddi|zuHause> a terrain preview on the main menu might be useful
17:56:37  <FLHerne> Because terrain-gen in a script would be slow, and the current generator is capable of making nice landscapes
17:56:58  <nielsm> yes the terrain get should not be up to GS, that would be inefficient
17:57:22  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want custom terrain, just make a heightmap
17:57:45  <FLHerne> Side note: I think some script methods to examine larger areas of terrain might be useful for other things?
17:58:01  <andythenorth> maybe
17:58:03  <FLHerne> e.g. AI pathfinders are very slow currently
17:58:23  <milek7> factorio-like map preview?
17:58:24  <FLHerne> (and tend to limit the search space to compensate, and produce crap paths)
17:58:58  <nielsm> I'm trying to think of what large-scale map inspection would look like and not sure I can think of anything really great
17:59:12  <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: i don't think factorio invented map previews
17:59:46  <andythenorth> what problem are we solving again?
17:59:48  <andythenorth> )
17:59:50  <nielsm> like pick a center and radius and get some statistics on that? lowest and highest point, number of water tiles, number of flat tiles, number of slope tiles?
18:03:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i once tried to make a gamescript that runs a triangulation on the map to find out which cities neighbour each other, but on large maps, that wasn't done by the time the game was handed off to the user
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18:03:50  <andythenorth> quak
18:03:56  <frosch123> moo
18:04:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (mainly because i placed signs for debugging purposes, and placing a sign ends your tick)
18:04:36  <Eddi|zuHause> (that would potentially become a problem if you want to place objects as border fences or something)
18:05:04  <Eddi|zuHause> (or road connections)
18:05:15  <FLHerne> nielsm: Yes, that's about what I was thinking
18:06:15  <FLHerne> nielsm: Basically, anything that would help pick a high-level route ("there's a dip in the hills around here")
18:07:28  <FLHerne> Current AI pathfinding seems to poke around tile-by-tile over a small area, until saying "sod it" and building straight over a mountain
18:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you probably want some tree structure for that kind of analysis
18:08:05  <nielsm> like a quadtree?
18:08:09  <FLHerne> Or tries to build routes that make no sense, because the industries are close in principle but on widely-separated islands
18:08:52  <FLHerne> So it either (a) builds a hugely expensive bridge, or (b) invests a huge amount of time determining that it /needs/ one and then gives up
18:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the exact details of your data structure probably depends on the specific problem you're trying to solve
18:10:00  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Right
18:10:17  <Eddi|zuHause> things to consider: a) building up that structure probably takes some time, so your AI might still spend ages inactive, and b) other players terraforming might make your data invalid
18:10:58  <nielsm> a full map quadtree constantly maintained by all terrain operations!
18:11:05  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: My thought was that it would be better to have some routines (and their underlying datastructures) implemented in OTTD C++ as part of the API
18:11:25  <nielsm> could be combined with a complete terrain rewrite to store the terrain in blocks instead of one contiguous array
18:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause> concerning b) you might want to have a data structure that allows easy recovery from local changes. like, maybe a heap?
18:11:56  <FLHerne> To largely mitigate your (a) and (b), and any such datastructure could potentially be reused for other game calculations
18:12:30  <FLHerne> e.g. for quickly ruling-out impossible paths for ships
18:12:51  <Eddi|zuHause> we don't really have that :p
18:16:41  <Wolf01> andythenorth: steam-turbine locomotive with huge running cost at low speed?
18:16:54  <andythenorth> o_O
18:17:25  <Wolf01> But at high speed really low running cost
18:17:55  <andythenorth> o_O
18:19:40  <Wolf01> While economical at speed, the locomotive was highly uneconomical at lower speed. The turbine used less steam than conventional locomotives above 30 mph (48 km/h), but below that the locomotive used too much steam and fuel.
18:19:56  <Wolf01> (this from the S2)
18:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> "uneconomical" doesn't mean the cost actually increased at low speed
18:24:11  <Wolf01> I read that at high speed the costs are comparable to diesel ones
18:24:41  <Wolf01> *were, since there are no more of them
18:26:14  <andythenorth> so I have added some industrial trams to Road Hog using NRT
18:26:25  <andythenorth> but somehow they're less appealing than the HEQS ones
18:26:28  <andythenorth> not sure why yet
18:28:34  <andythenorth> maybe it's the railtype menu? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9500/feldbahn.png
18:29:36  <andythenorth> or that they all look the same? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9501/feldbahn_2.png
18:29:50  <andythenorth> or that the names are really really long?
18:29:55  <andythenorth> or that they're slow?
18:29:56  <andythenorth> :P
18:30:25  <Eddi|zuHause> all of those?
18:30:45  <andythenorth> quite possibly
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18:34:30  <andythenorth> composable RVs? o_O
18:34:50  <supermop_work> andythenorth: ive had the same problem with industrial trams
18:35:02  <supermop_work> names and menu get way too long
18:36:46  <supermop_work> composing like trains would solve, but then its like do trams want to be different from trains?
18:38:33  <andythenorth> is problem eh?
18:38:40  <andythenorth> so HEQS trams work though?
18:38:49  <andythenorth> and Road Hog pre-NRT trams worked great
18:39:04  <andythenorth> grf design must evolve!
18:39:06  <andythenorth> send memo!
18:40:00  <supermop_work> heqs is manageble
18:41:18  <supermop_work> road hog is ok-ish but you don't have quite as many permutations?
18:42:15  <supermop_work> heqs collapsed rake length and wagon type into refits
18:42:51  <andythenorth> yes
18:42:59  <andythenorth> and Hog the trams all look very different
18:43:08  <andythenorth> also, in game they are all 16/8
18:43:19  <andythenorth> so they fill road stops really well without blocking
18:45:13  <supermop_work> tbh i used to care more about efficient road stop fitting but i've come to be ambivalent
18:46:28  <supermop_work> in mopRVs idk if ended up even trying
18:49:22  <supermop_work> 16/8 or longer is useful if put a stop in front of a tram depot as an escapement for lazy timetabling
18:51:11  <supermop_work> 8/8 or less is useful as you can have two routes through a stop without worrying if the timetables coincide at the shared stop
18:53:53  <supermop_work> for mop rv i ended up just only doing open wagons and box cars
18:53:59  <supermop_work> no tankers
18:55:56  <andythenorth> currently I'm only building feldbahn because I have to for testing :P
18:56:07  <andythenorth> otherwise I'd use the town freight trams, they're faster :P
18:57:18  <andythenorth> and the town freight trams look cool
18:57:25  <andythenorth> the feldbahn are just small trains
19:01:12  <Samu> which plane profits more?
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19:01:18  <Samu> 75 pass, 10 mail
19:01:22  <Samu> 65 pass, 18 mail
19:03:51  <andythenorth> potato / potato?
19:04:17  <Samu> ya
19:06:00  <Samu> there should be a profit calculator somewhere
19:07:45  <Samu> https://citymania.org/tools/profit eh... almost
19:08:46  <_dp_> by almost you mean to planes?
19:09:31  <_dp_> I felt to point to bother with charts for planes :p
19:09:36  <_dp_> A21 is the best, end of story :p
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19:10:32  <Samu> AirTaxi A34-1000
19:10:40  <Samu> Yate Z-Shuttle
19:10:49  <Samu> Kelling K1
19:12:00  <nielsm> mail should be paying better than passengers, I think?
19:12:08  <nielsm> for same amount transported over same distance in same time
19:12:55  <nielsm> but mail also weighs 4x more per unit than passengers
19:13:08  <Samu> 3 different AIs, 3 different choices
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19:13:57  <Samu> oh, the other is 85 pass, 10 mail
19:14:09  <Samu> but it has low reliability
19:15:06  <_dp_> Darvin 300 and dinger 200 are worth considering if your airports are clogging, others just suck
19:16:03  <Samu> dinger 200 is a large plane, this choice is only small planes
19:16:16  <_dp_> mail is technically more profitable I guess but there is much less mail and if you already build an airport you may transport passengers as well
19:17:03  <Samu> there's only these 3 planes available past 2051
19:17:15  <Samu> small*
19:17:57  <Samu> my AI went with the most reliable, lower running cost 75/10
19:18:24  <_dp_> for small ones lb-9
19:18:26  <Samu> NoNoCAB went 65/18
19:18:53  <_dp_> but it's prety pointless to use small unless they're not available
19:19:06  <_dp_> which can only happen on citymania as it's not a vanilla setting
19:19:44  <_dp_> *unless big ones are not available
19:20:10  <Samu> big ones are available, but in AI maps, it's rare to have space for large airports
19:20:45  <Samu> roads everywhere, hills, houses, they tend to build commuters often
19:20:49  <_dp_> Samu, build more small ones
19:21:29  <_dp_> crashes don't matter much, you can just advertise after it
19:22:13  <nielsm> say,.. isn't this wrong? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/economy.cpp#L1007-L1027
19:22:25  <nielsm> it doesn't match the description in the comment, as far as I can tell
19:22:34  <frosch123> hmm, i guess it should not have stated with simutrans by looking into the settings gui.... why can you select the savegame version?
19:23:39  <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blame/3cd29575445a7f4b9861f6f80d209244bf58a608/src/economy.cpp#L1214
19:23:49  <nielsm> previous version looks much more like the described algorithm
19:24:20  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Hey people who's smarter than me, do libraries (such as libtimidity) have dependencies?
19:24:38  <nielsm> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: yes, but usually they're taken care of automatically by pkgconfig
19:24:43  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> okay
19:24:57  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Is there a way to "check" the dependencies of a library?
19:25:31  <nielsm> you'd get loader/linker errors if they aren't satisfied
19:25:41  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay, great then nielsm
19:25:42  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> thanks
19:25:53  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Back to bashing my head against the keyboard :)
19:26:15  <nielsm> usually something like "symbol not found __blabla_xxx"
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19:27:37  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I see
19:27:48  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay I made what I needed and it didn't blow up so far :D
19:28:19  <nielsm> okay after some more thinking about it: no, the cargo payment algorithm is not wrong :)
19:28:20  <_dp_> nielsm, seems fine
19:28:24  <_dp_> nielsm, const int days_over_days2 = max(days_over_days1 - days2, 0);
19:28:37  <nielsm> I got things flipped around in my head :)
19:28:37  <_dp_> also iirc days2 add to days1
19:29:49  <nielsm> yeah it's a combination of three linear functions with split points at days1 and days1+days2
19:30:43  <nielsm> well, four, since it bottoms out at a minimum value
19:31:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: simutrans has powerlines, even tunnels for powerlines
19:31:57  <andythenorth> :o
19:32:17  <andythenorth> can we change the cargo payment algorithm? :P
19:33:28  * andythenorth wants to give some vehicles a bonus
19:34:06  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> make planes pay double, they are nerfed
19:34:07  <_dp_> andythenorth, set slower aging?
19:34:20  * frenchiveruti_EasyOS was being sarcastic
19:34:33  <Samu> counting number of 1st places in the last 24 quarters
19:34:40  <andythenorth> _dp_: but I don't want to play huge maps
19:34:47  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> hmm "was being" is awful grammar, right?
19:34:47  <andythenorth> bit limiting imho
19:34:53  <nielsm> andythenorth actually yes, you can make a cb on a cargotype
19:35:04  <nielsm> then the cargo payment algorithm is completely overridden
19:35:07  <andythenorth> yes, can't inspect the vehicle though
19:35:09  <Samu> LuDiAI AfterFix: 15
19:35:10  <nielsm> but of course you can't know what vehicle was used
19:35:25  <nielsm> vehicles can only affect the rate at which days_in_transit increases
19:35:46  <nielsm> but, if you control both the vehicles and the cargo, then...!!
19:35:49  <nielsm> (???)
19:36:01  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> This is so sad, I can't make the damn music work, even with timidity. :/
19:36:08  <andythenorth> strikes me that cur_vehicle_multiplier * cs-> current_payment would do it :P
19:36:16  <Samu> RailwAI: 6
19:36:49  <glx> frenchiveruti_EasyOS: does timidity works by itself ?
19:36:54  <Samu> WormAI: 3
19:37:21  <andythenorth> my suggestion is a single line change, and a trivial cb result in newgrf
19:37:28  <andythenorth> no breaking savegames
19:37:30  <Samu> or RailwAI: 5 , WormAI: 4 - they tie in a quarter in first place
19:37:33  <andythenorth> multiplier defaults to 1
19:37:59  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> glx, I am not sure how to check that, but when I run "timidity" on a terminal it doesn't throw an error
19:38:11  <_dp_> andythenorth, adds a ui nonsense thogh adding "cheating factor" to each vehicle :p
19:38:29  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I even compiled (successfully, oddly enough) libtimidity, and still the game won't play the music for me.
19:38:34  <glx> you should try to play midi directly from the terminal
19:38:36  <andythenorth> [shrug] :P
19:38:47  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> aight
19:38:58  <Samu> do you really want music to play? :o
19:39:01  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> testing that out right now
19:39:03  <andythenorth> if I make a vehicle with 9999 capacity in 8/8, is that cheating :P
19:39:11  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I want to make it work Samu :)
19:39:26  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> and c'mon, funk town <3
19:40:00  <nielsm> funk central?
19:40:16  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> haha
19:40:18  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Yes
19:40:29  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> My brain typed town because I was reading about towns
19:40:41  <nielsm> funk town, small central
19:40:54  <Samu> I'm listening to Rhys Fulber / Bill Leeb other projects https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-a90i1-gb8&list=OLAK5uy_nb9WaOnYf2C_pLuebBpBS9UlTXbZXL6tA&index=4
19:41:03  <Samu> so far I'm disappointed
19:41:34  <nielsm> I'm not tired of the original TT music after 25 years
19:41:35  <Samu> Delerium is so much different
19:41:57  <Samu> can't believe it's the same guys that make both projects
19:42:10  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Okay. This OS is the problem, there's no doubt about that.
19:42:20  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> GLib:ERROR:../../../glib/ghash.c:377:g_hash_table_lookup_node: assertion failed: (!g_atomic_ref_count_compare (&hash_table->ref_count, 0))
19:42:23  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Same error as the game.
19:42:28  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> With the sound issue.
19:42:38  <Samu> install windows
19:42:43  * frenchiveruti_EasyOS flips his os
19:42:45  <nielsm> if you run timidity by itself?
19:43:05  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> yes nielsm if I do timidity <midi>.mid it throws that error
19:43:09  <_dp_> I just got a crazy idea of having vehicles that can change cargo type
19:43:15  <_dp_> basically moving industries
19:43:15  <nielsm> check if timidity's executable has a way to select audio output (i.e. switch it to alsa direct)
19:43:21  <_dp_> don't even ask what for xD
19:43:21  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> ok
19:43:29  <andythenorth> o_O
19:43:30  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> _dp_, isn't that already a thing?
19:43:32  <andythenorth> what for?
19:43:40  <andythenorth> moving castle mod?
19:43:44  <glx> IIRC there's a command line switch for that
19:43:56  <_dp_> zombie apocalypse... everything has to be done on trains... coz logic :p
19:46:08  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> glx, yes, timidity -Os (alsa output)
19:46:11  <Samu> tried to listen to Synaesthesia - sounds similar to the old Delerium
19:46:25  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Even thought, the software is laughing at my face at this point hahaha
19:46:42  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It tells me it can't find a cfg file called "fluidr3_gm.cfg"
19:46:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> that should be in the same folder as timidity
19:46:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> maybe I'm missing something from the repo
19:46:55  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> btb
19:46:57  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> brb*
19:47:24  <glx> the name of your OS is misleading ;)
19:47:33  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> hahaha
19:47:33  <nielsm> yeah :)
19:47:42  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I blame Barry Kauler
19:48:03  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I'm just a regular joe who likes to break stuff and learn from it.
19:50:55  <Samu> Road ais spam roads
19:51:01  <Samu> ship ais spam buoys
19:52:18  <Samu> and road ais can't build bridges over buoys
19:59:40  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> IT FUCKING WORKS
19:59:44  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> love y'all
20:00:34  <Samu> cg
20:02:21  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Now I realize that in order for the game to work on any new installment of this OS, I would have to ship it with midity, fluid-soundfont, and a shit ton of others hahaha
20:02:26  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> oh well
20:02:52  <glx> timidity should be part of the OS
20:02:54  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> There's no reward without effort, right?
20:03:06  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> It is not, as you said, misleading name :)
20:03:18  <glx> same for soundfont
20:03:27  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> I'm lucky it uses debian repos
20:04:11  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> But oh well, it's just 240MB of ram when Idle
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20:05:12  <glx> oh doing IRC as root, no a very good idea
20:06:27  *** frenchiveruti_EasyOS has joined #openttd
20:06:31  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> correction
20:06:38  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> 130MB of RAM on Idle
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20:13:49  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Ok, thanks guys I won't bother for a while
20:13:51  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> (for a while)
20:17:33  <Samu> tubular road bridges, 611 km/h
20:17:45  <Samu> but there's no 611 km/h road vehicles
20:19:17  <Samu> with the "realistic" acceleration model it should be funny to see
20:22:58  <Samu> imagine Taxis
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20:23:16  <Samu> max 3 passengers
20:23:36  <Samu> but going at ultra speeds like 611 km/h
20:27:44  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> The Hover-Bus NewGRF?
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20:44:47  <andythenorth> so flat docks then peter1138? :D
20:49:06  <andythenorth> nielsm: in the fps meter, is cargodist / link graph all under 'cargo handling'?
20:49:48  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> So, a static build is the one that only uses the libraries inside the executable?
20:49:52  <frenchiveruti_EasyOS> Or something like that?
20:50:00  <nielsm> no, link graph calculation generally doesn't get included
20:50:03  <nielsm> unless it goes over time
20:50:10  <nielsm> since it runs on a separate thread
20:50:37  <andythenorth> thanks
20:50:44  * andythenorth curious about mac performance
20:50:56  <andythenorth> I have a game running at 33fps for some reason, with full animation on
20:51:28  <andythenorth> but other times I get 20fps
20:51:38  <andythenorth> mystery is mystifying :)
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21:14:36  <Samu> my AI can't fight back at long last
21:14:57  <Samu> being beaten more often than I'd like
21:15:39  <Samu> WormAI and RailwAI are fighting for 1st in profits
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21:16:07  <Samu> LuDiAI AfterFix can't seem to make a comeback
21:16:28  <Samu> it can't create more vehicles, while the others can
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21:18:22  <Samu> https://i.imgur.com/ZJFW8WZ.png
21:19:00  <Samu> I'm blue
21:19:05  <Samu> WormAI is orange
21:19:13  <Samu> RailwAI is green
21:19:41  <Samu> NoNoCAB can still make more vehicles, in theory it should be able to surpass blue
21:20:11  <Samu> but has been in 4th place for a long time already
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21:25:21  <Samu> NoNoCAB is red
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21:38:49  <peter1138> Binge eating time!
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