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00:03:52 *** Yexo has quit IRC 00:07:38 *** Yexo has joined #openttd 00:07:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo 00:39:57 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 00:41:40 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 00:46:48 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 00:48:37 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 00:51:07 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 01:12:27 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 01:12:44 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 01:17:19 *** tokai has joined #openttd 01:17:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 01:22:58 *** Yexo has quit IRC 01:24:18 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 01:25:38 *** Yexo has joined #openttd 01:25:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo 01:40:26 *** Yexo has quit IRC 01:43:24 *** gelignite_ has joined #openttd 01:50:36 *** gelignite has quit IRC 01:54:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on issue #8116: Old patchpack savegame versions will soon overlap https://git.io/JfZsT 02:16:46 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 02:20:06 *** debdog has quit IRC 02:29:45 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:55:29 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:20:01 *** k-man has quit IRC 03:21:02 *** k-man has joined #openttd 03:27:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] MinchinWeb commented on issue #116: TownName Resonance Issue https://git.io/JfsfH 03:35:21 *** glx has quit IRC 03:37:58 *** gelignite_ has quit IRC 03:52:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] MinchinWeb commented on issue #116: TownName Resonance Issue https://git.io/JfsfH 05:12:13 *** snail_UES_ is now known as Guest24254 05:12:13 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 06:25:29 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 06:26:22 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 06:34:57 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:45:55 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:07:50 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 08:19:04 *** Smedles has quit IRC 08:22:49 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 08:22:53 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 08:29:19 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 08:44:38 *** supermop_Home_ has quit IRC 08:52:43 <_dp_> good morning... https://i.imgur.com/W1ZvJ1Y.png 08:53:04 <LordAro> :( 08:53:22 <LordAro> guess we should release 1.10.2, huh? 08:53:51 <_dp_> I don't think it will help 08:54:23 <_dp_> As far as I understand that vehicle desync that's not it 08:54:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8113: Codechange: Use a dynamic copyright year https://git.io/JfZvJ 08:54:46 <LordAro> well we need another set of debug save files then 08:54:57 <LordAro> (assuming it's not whatever changes you've made, of course) 08:55:41 <_dp_> it's similar to reddit logs, players get desynced immediately after joining 08:56:32 <LordAro> have you tried reproducing with the server save? you make it sound like it'd be easy to reproduce.. 08:57:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8111: Fix: reset roadtype/streetcartype info for non-road bridges https://git.io/JfZgE 09:02:40 <_dp_> LordAro, ehm, what save? at's also pretty random as it more or less worked for a month and then this happened 09:03:03 <_dp_> and ofc it all happened when I was alseep and server already restarted on schedule :/ 09:03:17 <LordAro> _dp_: as in, the save that the server was running 09:09:36 <_dp_> I only have this save https://citymania.org/static/server/saves/goal/s0_130276_112624_10234.sav 09:09:52 <_dp_> it's one minute before sabi desyncs but that may've been vehicle desync 09:11:05 <_dp_> instadesyncs start like 2 hours later 09:14:25 <LordAro> really need a proper reproducer to do anything about it 09:14:29 <_dp_> also not everyone desyncs, some players are fine while some can't connect 09:14:35 <LordAro> until then, it could just be a broken client and/or server 09:16:56 <_dp_> I'll try to at least save command log next time 09:18:25 <_dp_> also chris should be able to tell how it is from player pov once he wakes up 09:18:46 <_dp_> coz afaik so far there are 0 reports from players somehow, even on reddit %) 09:46:32 *** Samu has joined #openttd 10:19:14 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 10:46:55 *** Yexo has joined #openttd 10:46:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo 10:52:40 <Samu> random graph about priority queues https://i.imgur.com/uhyMytw.png 10:53:29 <Samu> that legend didn't fit :( 10:54:41 <Samu> priority queue 2 hasn't finished yet 10:54:52 <Samu> will ruin the graph once it finishes anyway 10:57:55 <Samu> those numbers are ticks 10:59:09 <Samu> ticks needed to road pathfind from the center of 9 towns to the center of the others, looping all towns 10:59:18 <Yexo> To me this looks like an argument *against* a native priority queue. A gain of about 20% over an optimized squirrel implementation isn't very much, and the more C++ objects there are the more difficult fixing things like #6322 will become 10:59:18 <Samu> english :( 10:59:43 <Samu> 6322? let me look 10:59:58 <Yexo> tracking memory used by squirrel/AI 11:00:41 <Yexo> Samu: have you experimented with the estimate function yet? If not, try returning 1.2 times whatever the estimate function returns by default. 11:01:13 <Yexo> The pathfinder will find paths much quicker, but it will find slightly less optimal paths (up to 1.2 times the cost) 11:05:06 <Samu> im using an estimate of 1 11:05:11 <Samu> multiplier 11:05:23 <Samu> the original road pathfinder doesn't have this estimate, so it's 1 11:06:07 <Samu> i experimented it on my canal pathfinder, it's great! it's like magic 11:08:53 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 11:09:46 <Samu> PR#8091 is the real winner 11:10:38 <Samu> the AIList Sorted List based ones look like they perform identical to it, but in reality, it devours memory :( 11:11:14 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 11:22:31 <Samu> they* devour 11:24:24 <Samu> terron priority queue is surprisingly better than I expected 11:24:36 <Samu> i have to investigate its workings better 11:37:24 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 11:37:40 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 12:09:10 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 12:09:10 <Samu> priority queue 2 result finished! lel https://i.imgur.com/jiJNENT.png 12:09:15 <andythenorth> someone ask peter if it's lunch pls 12:09:18 <andythenorth> I am hungry 12:15:03 *** gelignite has quit IRC 12:17:26 <planetmaker> is it... lunch? 12:20:31 <LordAro> andythenorth: yes 12:48:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout https://git.io/JfZi5 12:52:19 *** mcbanhas has joined #openttd 12:52:21 <mcbanhas> hello 12:52:44 <mcbanhas> https://wiki.openttd.org/Manual_of_style can I get some feedback on this? I'm almost finishing it. 12:57:50 *** glx has joined #openttd 12:57:50 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 12:58:06 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:04:24 <Samu> i can gain a little few more ticks by using _count 13:04:36 <Samu> 12780 in the graph becomes 12768 13:05:13 <Samu> let me veirfy 13:07:00 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: > If referring to the player, always try to use sentence structures that address players as "you". < doesn't seem relevant under "Bias-free communication" 13:08:32 <FLHerne> Some of the other suggestions don't apply to any texts that exist in OpenTTD, but future-proofing can't hurt... 13:08:56 <mcbanhas> I gotta rephrase that. I'm referring to the issues with he-she pronounds. The M$ MoS describes it a bit better: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/style-guide/bias-free-communication 13:09:04 <mcbanhas> Yeah, I'm future proofing it, pretty much 13:09:28 <mcbanhas> Mainly because at some point, I would like to propose and write an in-game manual. 13:09:39 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: The screenshot for "Descriptive texts" violates its own guideline re. ending in a period ;-) 13:10:52 <mcbanhas> Last sentence of tooltips are an exception. You can see it on the formatting tooltips section. 13:11:03 <mcbanhas> Although I should reword that, thanks. 13:11:07 <FLHerne> (also, I don't think the text is optimal, but that's a different thing) 13:11:20 <FLHerne> Ok, then I think that's a mistake 13:11:28 <Samu> confirmed 13:11:30 <FLHerne> At least for longer tooltips 13:11:40 <mcbanhas> What do you mean? 13:11:45 <mcbanhas> Not ending in a period? 13:11:52 *** supermop_Home has joined #openttd 13:11:53 <FLHerne> Yes 13:12:01 <supermop_Home> yo 13:12:40 <mcbanhas> Most tooltips in game have that. The last sentence almost never ends in a period, so I just made a rule out of it. 13:12:49 <FLHerne> Specifically, that with multiple sentences the preceding ones have periods, but not the last one 13:13:10 <mcbanhas> It's easily fixable though. 13:13:34 <FLHerne> I think ignoring periods for single-sentence tooltips is fine, and maybe better 13:14:11 <FLHerne> But having periods on some but not all sentences in a text is definitely wrong 13:14:30 <mcbanhas> That's not a bad idea, because then we could distinguish between title-only tooltips and description only tooltips. 13:15:03 <mcbanhas> Well, it's not wrong if you make a rule out of it XD 13:15:23 <FLHerne> It's wrong in that I find it disconcerting to read :P 13:16:08 <mcbanhas> It's totally fixable though. Although I will have to redo most tooltips screenshot examples all over ahaha 13:16:12 <FLHerne> Pedantically, "FAQ" is an initialism and not an acronym. No-one cares though. 13:17:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on issue #8093: Regular server desynchronisations from clients https://git.io/JfkmV 13:17:52 <FLHerne> Why is BaNaNaS called that? It's a terrible name :-/ 13:18:29 <mcbanhas> It's not up to me to question that. xD 13:18:55 <FLHerne> "Base graphics/sound And Newgrfs And Noais And Scenarios." 13:19:06 <FLHerne> Even the explanation has bizarre and inconsistent casing 13:19:16 <FLHerne> (both within itself, and with the acronym) 13:20:20 <FLHerne> I disagree with the "Extended Generic Road Vehicle and Tram Set or eGRVTS is a newgrf vehicle set by Zephyris." 13:20:30 <FLHerne> No-one calls it that 13:20:51 <mcbanhas> call it what? 13:20:55 <FLHerne> I doubt a majority of users even know the full name 13:21:05 <mcbanhas> it's just a dummy example man 13:21:09 <FLHerne> "Extended Generic Road Vehicle and Tram Set" 13:21:31 <mcbanhas> I took that one from the wiki actually: 13:22:15 <mcbanhas> https://wiki.openttd.org/EGRVTS 13:22:18 <FLHerne> Ok, but I think the principle is wrong 13:22:32 <FLHerne> Yes, I know what it is 13:22:53 <mcbanhas> It's an example, if you can think of a better one, let me know 13:23:21 <FLHerne> Making a sentence twice as long, and including a full name that no-one actually uses, isn't worth it just to avoid a lowercase first letter 13:23:54 <FLHerne> To be fair, I see someone called the wiki article that 13:25:02 <FLHerne> "...on the link down below." <- redundant, just "below"? 13:25:33 <FLHerne> There's an inconsistency between examples 13:25:36 <FLHerne> > The Dash is a diesel multiple unit (DMU) available since 1984 13:25:47 <FLHerne> > The EMU (electric multiple unit) is a type of train 13:26:11 <FLHerne> Should the acronym or the spelled-out version go first? 13:26:24 <mcbanhas> Yeah, I forgot to fix that one, thanks 13:26:27 <FLHerne> Possibly there should be a rule for that, it's a fairly common case 13:26:41 <FLHerne> (unless there is one and I've not got to it) 13:26:50 <FLHerne> I prefer the first one, incidentally 13:28:16 <Samu> how much code magic is in this sentence? return !_count-- ? null : _queue.pop()[0]; 13:28:27 <FLHerne> Samu: Too much 13:28:55 <Samu> but it's faster 13:29:15 <glx> speed would be the same with parenthesis 13:29:40 <Samu> my main issue is what if :count becomes -1 13:29:56 <Samu> next time it checks, it tries to _queue.pop() instead :| 13:29:59 <glx> !(-1) is false 13:30:09 <Samu> yes, that's bad 13:30:22 <FLHerne> Samu: Why not just reverse it? 13:30:42 <FLHerne> `return _count-- ? _queue.pop()[0] : null 13:30:44 <FLHerne> ` 13:31:03 <glx> same problem with -1 ;) 13:31:13 <glx> but easier to read :) 13:31:44 <FLHerne> _count-- > 0? 13:31:51 <FLHerne> I guess it could overflow, eventually 13:31:55 *** arikover has joined #openttd 13:33:39 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: There's also an inconsistency in the tooltip examples 13:33:57 <mcbanhas> Yes? 13:34:17 <FLHerne> "Clear all objects" vs "Place%bs%b a railway bridge" 13:34:28 <FLHerne> Nope, my formatting is broken 13:34:43 <FLHerne> But anyway, pick a tense 13:35:30 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 13:35:48 <mcbanhas> I had that one noted already, but thanks. 13:36:05 <FLHerne> "Clear ...", "Place ..." probably better? 13:36:18 <mcbanhas> I set a rule for that I think 13:36:31 <mcbanhas> Check the writing section for tooltips. 13:36:41 *** Laedek has quit IRC 13:37:05 <mcbanhas> But yeah, preferably third person minus pronoun 13:37:17 <mcbanhas> So clears 13:38:53 <FLHerne> I hadn't got to that yet ;-) 13:38:59 <FLHerne> (still haven't) 13:40:08 <FLHerne> "March the 3rd" is a can of worms about date formatting :P 13:40:47 <mcbanhas> It's the current formatting 13:40:56 <mcbanhas> Well technically is 3rd of March 13:41:12 <mcbanhas> so I'll amend that example 13:41:14 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 13:41:35 <LordAro> i don't think it should have "of" or "the" in it 13:41:40 <mcbanhas> It doesn't 13:41:46 <mcbanhas> I'll fix the example 13:42:07 <FLHerne> In-game date is just "3rd Mar 2020" 13:42:26 <mcbanhas> Yes 13:42:36 <FLHerne> Which should probably have a period, given it's an abbreviation... 13:43:07 <FLHerne> I didn't see anything explicitly about preferred spelling 13:43:29 <mcbanhas> It would look a bit jarring though. I would be a good exception. 13:43:40 <mcbanhas> I haven't set rules for abbreviations, tbh, just acronyms 13:43:52 <FLHerne> The MoS itself uses US/Oxford spelling, so I guess that implies it 13:45:23 <mcbanhas> The manual is intended to cover both US/UK variants, sorta like the M$ Style Guide, but I can include a section for regional spelling, yes. :) 13:46:11 <mcbanhas> Although it would be little more than a reference to a couple of major dictionaries. 13:47:23 <glx> US is managed by translators 13:48:24 <mcbanhas> In an ideal world we would have a style guide for EVERY language xD, or least style notes. 13:49:09 <mcbanhas> This is actually a widespread problem in the free software community 13:49:25 <Samu> 12791 ticks, if i get a result lower than this, then _queue.len() ends up being faster overall 13:49:37 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Specifically, in the UK you can have either "recognise" or "recognize", and it looks odd if they're inconsistent 13:49:48 * FLHerne tries to find any examples currently used in-game 13:50:10 <mcbanhas> There are no unifying textual guidelines or manuals of style for Linux 13:50:27 <mcbanhas> It's a mess, someone should do something about it 13:51:36 <mcbanhas> M$ itself only has a general style guide for English, and then style notes for every other language. 13:51:54 <mcbanhas> Which is an elegant solution, although not perfect 13:52:28 <Samu> 12837, wow _queue.len() disappointed 13:52:36 <FLHerne> In-game uses "penalises" 13:53:45 <mcbanhas> I'd frankly prefer using a Z 13:53:57 <FLHerne> I would, too 13:54:08 <LordAro> i'm not sure i would 13:54:10 <LordAro> :p 13:54:31 <FLHerne> That's weird 13:54:43 <FLHerne> Half a stale bread roll just fell down my chimney 13:54:43 <mcbanhas> Tbh, everything is preferable to the current state of in-game text. 13:54:57 <LordAro> penalize is weird 13:55:00 <LordAro> penalise is not 13:55:10 <glx> french translation in windows is sometimes very bad 13:55:23 <FLHerne> I guess a seagull must have dropped its lunch 13:55:27 <glx> and it's worse since win10 13:56:11 <LordAro> FLHerne: or someone is throwing bread at you 13:56:31 <LordAro> purely on the ise vs ize front, english.txt is internally consistent as best as i can tell 13:56:41 <mcbanhas> glx, that's surprising to hear. The French academy goes to great lengths to ensure they don't rely on neologisms and keep all the software lingo up to date. Apparently the translators don't seem to follow then. 13:56:53 <LordAro> ( grep -o "\b[A-Za-z]*i[zs]e[A-Za-z]*\b" src/lang/english.txt | sort ) 13:57:03 <FLHerne> They'd have to throw it pretty accurately to get it down my chimney 13:57:26 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 13:58:15 <mcbanhas> "Half a stale bread roll just fell down my chimney" <- This is the most British thing I've read in a while xD 13:58:50 <glx> mcbanhas: for some time "update history" in windows update window was translated "mettre à jour l'historique" while it should be "historique des mises à jour" 13:58:54 <FLHerne> LordAro: Except that it has both "authorized" and "unauthorised" :P 13:59:01 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 13:59:14 <LordAro> FLHerne: ah right, yes 13:59:25 <LordAro> authorised, imo 13:59:37 <FLHerne> LordAro: Adding `| uniq` to your command helps 14:00:02 * LordAro adds -u out of spite 14:00:43 <mcbanhas> glx, ouch, that's really bad 14:01:23 <FLHerne> LordAro: Oh, handy 14:01:32 <glx> and it was correct before win10 (now it's fixed btw), but it's weird they could mess like that 14:02:33 <mcbanhas> Facebook also messes up translations quite often 14:03:21 <milek7> aliexpress is ridiculously bad ;P 14:03:55 <glx> less surprising :) 14:04:24 * mcbanhas used to work for a Facebook localization contractor 14:05:14 <Samu> 12768 with overflow, or 12791 with code correctness 14:05:40 <glx> I know for most games the translators only receive the strings without context, but for an OS it should be different 14:06:44 <nielsm> hm, MicroProse is back as a game publisher, with some of the original people at the top... I wonder if that will mean anything for the TT copyrights and trademarks 14:06:46 <mcbanhas> Yeah, but localization always takes a low priority in software development 14:07:11 <mcbanhas> What really? 14:07:31 <mcbanhas> Well, Chris Sawyer Games owns TT now I think 14:07:48 <glx> chris sawyer agency handles them yes 14:07:50 <nielsm> ah yeah the 2013 mobile game definitely used the name :) 14:07:57 <nielsm> right 14:08:07 <mcbanhas> X-Com is owned by 2K 14:08:44 <mcbanhas> Microprose possibly still has the rights for all the flight simulators 14:09:32 <mcbanhas> nielsm, can you link me to news about the Microprose return? 14:09:55 <nielsm> just saw the headline on slashdot 14:10:13 <nielsm> (I haven't clicked through to slashdot in don't-know-how-long, just reading headlines via RSS) 14:10:32 <mcbanhas> https://www.pcgamesn.com/second-front/microprose this is what I found 14:10:41 <Yexo> mcbanhas: you give an example on how to spell out acronyms ("diesel multiple unit (DMU)") but then under "General capitalization rules" swap the order ("The EMU (electric multiple unit) is") 14:10:45 <mcbanhas> They're doing military stuff again. Back to the roots I guess 14:11:13 <mcbanhas> Yexo, that was already noted by FLHerne, but thanks :) 14:14:01 <mcbanhas> This is a very interesting development. They're completely returning to their roots. They probably found out the niche market can pay off, since Paradox has been making a ton of money with 4x stuff. 14:15:06 <mcbanhas> And besides they do have the expertise and a lot of former military personnel in their contacts. 14:17:31 *** Laedek has quit IRC 14:17:35 <milek7> for what reason games still need 'publisher' now? 14:17:49 <Yexo> mcbanhas: under "UI labels": "as little words" should be "as few words" I think 14:18:39 <milek7> it's not like they need to press CDs and ship boxes around the world 14:18:53 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 14:19:21 <glx> milek7: to have money to develop 14:19:40 <glx> and handle all the paperwork 14:20:35 <mcbanhas> Yes, exactly wht glx just said 14:21:00 <mcbanhas> Publishers handle certification with online platforms for example 14:21:27 <glx> and now crowdfunding is mainly used to prove there's a demand so a publisher can enter in the loop 14:22:03 <mcbanhas> If you want to publish your game on a console, there's a lot of hoops you gotta jump through. Games need to be thoroughly tested and found to be in compliance with ESRB, PEGI and other rating authorities, 14:22:08 <mcbanhas> Publishers handle all that crap. 14:23:14 <mcbanhas> They also handle producing roles and establish development milestones, coordinate progress, suggest adding/removing features as p/ time constraints and budgets. 14:23:55 <mcbanhas> And playtesting of course. :) 14:24:11 * mcbanhas briefly worked as a producer for a publisher. 14:38:07 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 14:41:13 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 14:57:29 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 15:12:38 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 15:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> <mcbanhas> There are no unifying textual guidelines or manuals of style for Linux <-- i smell a https://xkcd.com/927/ coming 15:15:22 <mcbanhas> That's why I disagree with the "just fork" mentality 15:16:09 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: self fulfilling prophecy 15:17:06 <milek7> to be honest, I don't find it significant problem 15:17:52 <milek7> I don't even notice half-translated polish/english ui :P 15:18:32 <Samu> https://hg.openttdcoop.org/lib-aystar 15:18:34 <Samu> interesting 15:22:46 <Samu> you already had your own github thingy apparently 15:22:53 <Samu> under your domain 15:23:03 <Samu> but you moved to github 15:24:27 <LordAro> "your own github thingy" 15:24:30 <LordAro> oh Samu... 15:24:37 <Yexo> Go even further back and that code was hosted in an svn repo somehwere on openttd.org 15:25:51 <SpComb> kalliteha version 0.3.3, released in 2017 15:25:57 <SpComb> I can see why 15:30:26 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 15:30:34 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 15:30:53 *** cHawk has quit IRC 16:02:49 <FLHerne> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NvK1KpRTEs is amazing 16:05:12 *** Foveafox_ has quit IRC 16:06:03 <FLHerne> (and wholly incompatible with any reasonable Manual of Style) 16:21:32 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 16:25:26 <Wolf01> FLHerne: nice video :D 16:31:21 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:32:13 *** Laedek_ has joined #openttd 16:38:14 *** Laedek has quit IRC 16:50:49 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC 16:51:13 *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd 16:54:58 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 16:56:46 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:58:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain requested changes for pull request #35: PR of the day https://git.io/JfZFS 17:13:37 *** Samu_ has joined #openttd 17:16:29 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:19:22 *** Samu has quit IRC 17:41:10 <andythenorth> is it beer time? 17:44:12 <arikover> Definitely. 17:45:51 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JfZAY 17:45:51 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 17:56:40 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 18:01:40 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 18:01:56 *** Foveafox_ has joined #openttd 18:06:39 *** Samu has joined #openttd 18:09:51 *** Samu_ has quit IRC 18:10:08 *** Foveafox_ has quit IRC 18:33:15 <Wolf01> https://store.steampowered.com/newshub/app/1066780/view/2187005290941281383 wtf Apple 18:43:27 <mcbanhas> Does it have anything to do with apple's transition to Metal? 18:46:19 *** arikover has quit IRC 19:10:29 <Samu> I think I found a way to make my "Native Heap" aka Sorted List to not consume memory, 19:10:40 <Samu> but... it may consume cpu, have to check 19:12:05 <glx> Wolf01: yeah they marked OpenGL deprecated a long time ago 19:12:40 <TrueBrain> "not" consume memory? I call bullshit :D 19:13:50 <Samu> not cpu heavy, i meant 19:14:01 <TrueBrain> and yet it may consume cpu 19:14:03 <Samu> oh, that, yes 19:14:05 <TrueBrain> wow ... inception 19:15:30 <Samu> gonna post the source code soon, just making sure it's working as it should first 19:17:15 <Samu> I have an "enumerator" to generate the item #id, so that i could put it as an item in the AIList 19:17:38 <Samu> the real item itself is stored in a table 19:17:48 <TrueBrain> which is memory-less? :D 19:18:03 <TrueBrain> I have a box, and that compresses ANY movie 10 times better than any known algorithm 19:18:06 <TrueBrain> it is an amazing box 19:18:42 <Samu> this enumerator starts from 0, and each time the insert is called, it is increased by 1 19:18:47 <TrueBrain> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Sloot for who are not getting the reference) 19:19:10 <Samu> it never decreases 19:19:12 <TrueBrain> sometimes Samu , your programming powers impress me; but in reality, please buy a book on algorithms :) 19:20:30 <Samu> random screenshot [img]https://i.imgur.com/JsqM3W8.png[/img] 19:22:10 <Samu> it's the AI 9, i called the queue SortedList 19:22:34 <Samu> it's not using much memory, and is getting closer to the performance of PR#8091 19:22:53 <TrueBrain> not much? But it wasn't using memory before :( YOU LIED TO ME :'( Jan, go back in your corner, you lied too :( 19:23:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] frosch123 approved pull request #118: Fix: Allow calculation for palette in spritelayout https://git.io/JfZjA 19:23:09 <Samu> which could mean... PR#8091 could be closed, and not merged 19:23:34 <Samu> still making sure i can use the Exists function 19:23:35 <TrueBrain> but seriously; you are heavily reinventing wheels here. If that is your fun, continue on. But many books are written about this .. picking up one might help you improve even further ;) 19:24:19 <Samu> I don't like books :( 19:24:49 <TrueBrain> I am sure that is mutual; nevertheless, reinventing stuff isn't really a definition of progress ;) 19:25:17 <frosch123> are you discussing using /dev/null as backup? 19:27:15 <frosch123> https://devnull-as-a-service.com/ <- found it 19:29:20 <Wolf01> I prefer the S4 19:30:02 <Wolf01> http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com/ 19:33:37 <Samu> i got the idea based of Trans AI, of fanioz 19:34:04 <Samu> he used the tile as the ID, but that sounds to me like a bad idea 19:34:56 <Samu> i reworked it, and instead of tile id, i use the enumerator to generate the unique id 19:38:23 <Samu> this way, the queue can be used for several kinds of items, not just a queue that includes a tile 19:38:37 <Wolf01> https://steamcommunity.com/app/1066780/discussions/0/2246677986003890707/?ctp=2#c2246677986004362863 meh :| 19:39:02 <Samu> he calls it key 19:39:38 <Samu> I dunno what to call it, so i called it _tracker 19:39:52 <Samu> maybe _enumerator would be better 19:40:07 <Samu> or _count 19:40:18 <Samu> but it's a _count that never decreases 19:40:45 <Samu> _enumerator sounds better 19:42:55 <frosch123> well known people :) 19:49:41 *** Foveafoxy has joined #openttd 19:50:13 *** Foveafoxy is now known as Guest24308 19:57:43 *** Guest24308 has quit IRC 19:58:35 <TrueBrain> you have a commit to fix frosch123 :P 19:59:00 <frosch123> only one? 19:59:11 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/OpenTTD/BaNaNaS/pull/31 <- I wonder if this will reach him tbh 19:59:13 <TrueBrain> don't know 19:59:44 <TrueBrain> on the other hand, that scenario only existed for a second; we could also just remove it 20:00:13 <frosch123> just implement upgrades for scenarios and heightmaps 20:00:22 <TrueBrain> "just" :D 20:00:30 <frosch123> the "age" is irrelevant, you cannot download scenarios/heightmaps for old savegames anyway 20:00:37 <TrueBrain> but that wont solve this entry ;) 20:01:08 <frosch123> didn't you assign the same unique-id to scenario upgrades in the data migration? 20:01:27 <frosch123> so, instead of the replaced-by you could also move them to the same unique-id 20:01:45 <frosch123> or that can be postponed till the api supports the upgrades 20:01:56 <frosch123> since then multiple may get migrated 20:02:46 <frosch123> anyway, i would recommend to not look too deeply into individual entires. that way leads to madness :) 20:03:02 <TrueBrain> but still .. this entry needs a resolution ;) 20:03:30 <frosch123> it's one of many 20:03:31 <TrueBrain> (follow the link in the PR to understand why :P) 20:03:47 <TrueBrain> https://bananas.openttd.org/package/scenario/000018d6 20:04:04 <TrueBrain> this is not one of many. This is one ;) 20:04:16 <frosch123> well, did you miss the other two guys who renamed have of their chaos grfs to "zzz ignore" 20:04:26 <TrueBrain> yes, but they are not "new-games" 20:04:50 <TrueBrain> owh, some are .. they also need fixing in that case ;) 20:04:58 <TrueBrain> allowing to rename has this as side-effect 20:05:20 <frosch123> TrueBrain: as said, i would recommend to ignore them 20:05:31 <TrueBrain> I rather start with a cleanup :) 20:05:44 <frosch123> they prefer to abuse the tools they have, you can't win that 20:06:04 <TrueBrain> no, this is not abuse as such; this is not having better tools available and seeing this as only solution 20:06:07 <TrueBrain> which I fully understand 20:06:17 <TrueBrain> we need to deal with it in some matter 20:06:41 <frosch123> sure, but do that by implementing stuff in the api, not by fixing stuff manually :) 20:06:57 <TrueBrain> you don't pay my subscription :P 20:07:06 <TrueBrain> and clearly, I already wrote this PR ;) 20:07:56 <frosch123> well, i expect those PRs will take more time than migrating all authors :) 20:08:24 <TrueBrain> I mostly wonder how we can get in touch with authors .. mainly as the display-name is not migrated 20:08:29 <TrueBrain> that might be a bit challenging 20:09:06 <frosch123> yeah, no idea what to do with the displayname 20:09:46 <frosch123> i don't like to make it freely editable via a user profile. it should rather get updated everytime the package/version in edited/updated/added 20:10:12 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo merged pull request #8111: Fix: reset roadtype/streetcartype info for non-road bridges https://git.io/JfG8l 20:12:06 <frosch123> originally i wondered whether we would add other oauth providers. but considering how popular gh is among the current bananas users, it's best to stay with one 20:12:28 <frosch123> i definitely did not expect 95% of people to already have a gh account 20:14:54 <Yexo> or the people without gh account are not asking for a migration (yet) 20:15:08 <frosch123> oh, i missed to mention the fun-fact. the two people who used the "z-ignore" have very similar gh/forum/ottd names, and make similar content... so i conspirated about a split personality :p 20:15:58 <frosch123> Yexo: many scenario/heightmap people were also on gh 20:17:44 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I did the same! I even double-checked if that was the case :D :D :D 20:27:50 <frosch123> hmm, should we host bananas awards? vote for the best ai/vehicle grf/heightmap/... ? 20:28:39 <frosch123> i am searching for a way to emphasise good content, that does not require a lot of moderation 20:29:14 <glx> a simple rating system ? 20:29:47 <frosch123> that's hard to do with our public gh storage 20:30:12 <frosch123> too many commits, too much personal information, too much drama 20:31:09 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 20:31:12 <andythenorth> allow personal curators 20:31:15 <andythenorth> move the drama left 20:31:16 <frosch123> the bananas2 draft had a star-rating free for everyone, but it was private 20:31:24 <andythenorth> give people channels 20:31:33 <andythenorth> ratings are a disaster 20:32:50 <frosch123> yes, i do not want a continuous rating number. just a "this was considered good somewhen" badge 20:33:24 <frosch123> send new people to few good entries, let people dive into the mess if they want 20:34:27 <nielsm> also "this item works well with this other item" 20:35:02 <frosch123> that's not useful on bananas, you can't see that after download in the configuration guis 20:35:10 <nielsm> hm 20:35:22 <nielsm> then make that happen! 20:35:47 <nielsm> but sleeptime, gn 20:35:51 <frosch123> the bananas2 draft contained a content-type "newgrf-profile" 20:38:18 <frosch123> https://www.amazon.com/Fun-Express-Banana-Award-Trophy/dp/B07256YMTL <- andythenorth: do you want that for 1M firs downloads? 20:39:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened issue #8117: Memory leak: All incoming admin port packets leaked https://git.io/JfnJ8 20:39:30 <andythenorth> frosch123 we should 20:41:34 <Samu> is anyone into this kind of music? the one that starts at 18:58 https://www.rtp.pt/play/p287/e337607/argonauta 20:43:51 *** nielsm has quit IRC 20:46:01 <glx> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/compare/master...glx22:redo_8021 <-- good idea or not ? 20:46:58 <Samu> Station* st ? 20:46:58 <LordAro> glx: might as well 20:47:07 <LordAro> good catch Samu :p 20:47:15 <glx> stupid msvc :) 20:47:32 <frosch123> moving stuff into afterload.cpp is always good 20:47:45 <frosch123> conversions in other files are the biggest headache 20:48:19 <Samu> that was my PR :( 20:48:27 <Samu> I already deleted it 20:48:29 <glx> it was good 20:48:30 <Samu> branch 20:48:42 <glx> just now we have an improved way 20:50:17 <glx> Samu: and the unconditionnal fix was my idea ;) 20:50:29 <Samu> ah yes 20:50:43 <Samu> but I deleted the branch 20:50:48 <Samu> once it got merge 20:51:22 <frosch123> why is it related to SLV_ENDING_YEAR, and not SLV_MULTITILE_DOCKS ? 20:51:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8118: Fix #8021: limit savegame range for docking tiles fixing https://git.io/JfnUv 20:52:29 <glx> because the bug touched all savegames between both version 20:52:44 <Yexo> Nice. I was already wondering why there are so many AfterLoad* functions called unconditionally 20:52:52 <frosch123> glx: ok, can you add a comment then :) 20:54:05 <frosch123> Yexo: looks like people stopped adding stuff to InitializeWindowsAndCaches 20:54:35 <frosch123> it used to be the last and only call for stuff that is not stored and needs recomputing 20:54:56 <Samu> 10689 21:04:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8118: Fix #8021: limit savegame range for docking tiles fixing https://git.io/JfnUv 21:05:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #8118: Fix #8021: limit savegame range for docking tiles fixing https://git.io/JfnUo 21:06:25 <glx> I wonder if some desyncs are multitile related 21:06:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #8118: Fix #8021: limit savegame range for docking tiles fixing https://git.io/JfnU1 21:07:45 <frosch123> glx: it would explain desyncs shortly after join 21:09:01 <frosch123> glx: if you have the suspicion that something is still broken, one could add recomputation of the dock areas to CheckCaches() 21:10:43 <LordAro> how would multitiles cause desyncs? 21:11:39 <glx> incorrect update in some functions causing different ship pathfinding result 21:11:39 <frosch123> the area is update incrementally during commands. but recomputed from scratch when loading a savegame 21:11:52 <frosch123> so, if the incremental updates are wrong, the new joining client desyncs 21:13:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8118: Fix #8021: limit savegame range for docking tiles fixing https://git.io/JfnUv 21:15:07 <Yexo> I don't see how 'RemoveDockingTile' does any removing. Am I missing something or is that function name wrong/misleading? 21:15:33 <Samu> UnflagDockingTile 21:15:38 <Samu> better name 21:17:38 <frosch123> i think a "docking tile" is a tile adjacent to a station tile, where the ship will stop 21:17:58 <Yexo> Yes, that seems to match how I understand the code now 21:18:01 <frosch123> so RemoveDockingTile is called for tiles which are no longer water 21:18:22 <Yexo> That is one tricky thing to keep correct, very easy to miss a case there 21:19:44 <frosch123> yes, sounds like adding some validation to CheckCaches would be a good thing 21:22:22 <Samu> which one is gonna be faster? _sorter.RemoveItem(ret); VERSUS _sorter.RemoveTop(1); 21:23:45 <frosch123> yep, IsPossibleDockingTile is missing MP_TREES at least 21:24:11 <frosch123> hmm, no, those tiles are not traversible 21:26:39 *** Samu has quit IRC 21:28:39 <Yexo> Ships can dock from within the lower part of a lock to a dock to the side 21:28:43 <Yexo> Not sure if that's intended 21:29:14 <glx> hmm there's no easy way to compare 2 TileArea 21:29:16 <frosch123> isn't GetTileTrackStatus checking for that? 21:29:31 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:29:38 <Yexo> frosch123: It doesn't get any direction 21:29:52 <Yexo> So it can't check that 21:30:29 <frosch123> oh, ok, in that case it also applies to ship depots :) 21:30:49 <glx> and the docking status of the tile on map must be checked too 21:31:01 <frosch123> and docks below aqueducts :) 21:31:59 <Yexo> a dock below an aqueduct is not allowed 21:32:47 <frosch123> too bad :) so only dock next to aqueduct 21:33:03 <frosch123> quite sure some pp enabled bridges over stations 21:33:55 <frosch123> ah, no docking against the slope part, so master is save 21:34:15 <Yexo> "slope part" = sides of the dock? 21:34:39 <frosch123> the tile on shore 21:34:51 <Yexo> Ah 21:35:07 <frosch123> IsValidDockingDirectionForDock is actually quite picky 21:35:17 <frosch123> only two tiles per dock 21:37:34 *** Foveafoxy has joined #openttd 21:38:13 *** Foveafoxy is now known as Guest24324 21:38:57 <frosch123> hmm IsValidDockingDirectionForDock is only used in some places 21:39:16 <frosch123> doesn't UpdateStationDockingTiles just ignore htose restrictions? and adds all tiles? 21:40:50 <Yexo> It calls CheckForDockingTile for all tiles, but CheckForDockingTile does contain the check 21:43:44 <frosch123> hmm, luckily freeform edges are enabled by default. otherwise i think it could leave the map on the north border 21:44:34 *** Progman has quit IRC 21:45:48 *** Guest24324 has quit IRC 21:45:57 <Yexo> Remind me, is north top-right or top-left? 21:46:10 <frosch123> luaduck: _dp_: do people use ships on your servers, or are they banned as uncool? 21:46:20 <frosch123> Yexo: both :) 21:46:32 <Yexo> :p 21:46:40 <frosch123> both NW and NE have no MP_VOID when freeform is disabled 21:47:03 <Yexo> Where would that be a problem? 21:47:24 <frosch123> UpdateStationDockingTiles starts from a valid tile, and calls CheckForDockingTile for all neighbouring water tiles 21:47:35 <frosch123> CheckForDockingTile checks all neighbouring tiles again 21:47:59 <frosch123> so CheckForDockingTile can jump by distance 2 from the station, when the tile in between is MP_WATER 21:48:08 <frosch123> which is the case for non-freeform 21:48:15 <Yexo> I see 21:48:45 <_dp_> frosch123, for the most part they're allowed but limited to like 25 per company 21:49:03 <_dp_> frosch123, but if you're looking for desync it happened on server with no ships at all 21:49:25 <frosch123> ok, that's what i wanted to know :) 21:51:16 <_dp_> for desync I suspect some company id or client id shenanigans 21:51:32 <_dp_> only something like that can explain all the weirdness afaict 21:52:46 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 21:52:48 <Yexo> I think I found a ship-related desync none-the-less 21:53:02 *** mcbanhas has quit IRC 21:53:08 <Yexo> Building half-rail tiles next to a dock 21:54:25 <Yexo> CmdBuildSingleRail correctly keeps the docking-tile status intact, but I don't think CmdBuildRailroadTrack does 21:55:11 <Yexo> After building a diagonal rail (multiple in one click) that goes past the end of the dock, a ship refuses to dock there. Saving/loading the game resolves that, the ship can dock again 21:55:56 <luaduck> frosch123: quite often actually 21:56:14 <luaduck> often enough that we had to introduce a minimum buoys rule 21:56:26 <luaduck> to stop the pathfinder nomming the entire CPU 21:59:38 <andythenorth> is bedtime? 22:00:59 <Yexo> Tested locally, I can immediately trigger a desync with such a savegame 22:01:04 <Yexo> Becomes impossible to join the server 22:01:33 <frosch123> nice :) 22:04:06 * andythenorth tests bed :) 22:04:12 <andythenorth> bye 22:04:16 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:06:32 <frosch123> Yexo: ah, it only calls SetDockingTile, but it never notifies the station 22:07:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo opened issue #8119: Desync after building diagonal track next to dock end https://git.io/JfnI2 22:07:48 <Yexo> Too late to fix now 22:07:53 <Yexo> As in, soon time for bed 22:09:16 <glx> https://github.com/glx22/OpenTTD/compare/docking_check <-- untested 22:09:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on issue #8119: Desync after building diagonal track next to dock end https://git.io/JfnI2 22:09:51 <Yexo> There is another inconsistency related to docks and halftiles: after building the dock I can create a half-tile at the end by raising the land, but if the half-tile already exists I can't build the dock 22:10:14 <Yexo> Which also means there are situations where if you buildoze an existing dock you can't rebuild it without extra terraforming 22:10:24 <frosch123> yes, that's an old issue 22:10:58 <frosch123> it was like that in ttd, since ships headed to the tile in line with the dock 22:11:12 <frosch123> but apparently IsValidDockingDirectionForDock now does the opposite 22:11:21 <frosch123> so the builddock check should be changed as well 22:13:11 <Yexo> Is that a quick fix? Otherwise I'll create another issue to not forget 22:13:30 <frosch123> please make an issue, it's also bed time for me :) 22:14:03 <frosch123> night 22:14:05 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 22:14:10 <Yexo> glx: looks reasonable 22:14:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check https://git.io/JfnIH 22:14:40 <Yexo> Have you tested it on the scenario from https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/8119? Does it catch that? 22:15:32 <glx> getting the file 22:16:13 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo opened issue #8121: Cannot rebuild just buildozed dock https://git.io/JfnIF 22:24:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check https://git.io/JfnLm 22:26:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check https://git.io/JfnLc 22:26:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8119: Desync after building diagonal track next to dock end https://git.io/JfnI2 22:28:01 <Yexo> LordAro: see above: <_dp_> frosch123, but if you're looking for desync it happened on server with no ships at all 22:31:20 <LordAro> ah 22:31:40 <LordAro> though that could be the other desync :p 22:31:50 <Yexo> Yes, absolutely 22:34:55 <_dp_> even on reddit not all new clients desync, some connect just fine 22:42:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check https://git.io/JfntL 22:42:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check https://git.io/Jfntt 22:43:40 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 23:04:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 dismissed a review for pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check https://git.io/Jfntt 23:04:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check https://git.io/JfnIH 23:05:12 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo approved pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check https://git.io/JfnqR 23:14:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8120: Add: docking tiles cache check https://git.io/JfnIH 23:35:03 <LordAro> glx: worth adding #8120 to the backport list, do you think? 23:35:14 <glx> I did 23:35:19 <LordAro> :) 23:35:20 <glx> 2 minutes ago :) 23:51:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8122: Fix #8117: Memory leak in admin port https://git.io/JfnYj 23:52:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8122: Fix #8117: Memory leak in admin port https://git.io/JfnOI