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00:12:59 *** gelignite has quit IRC 00:30:30 *** derF_C has quit IRC 01:14:19 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 01:38:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/JfSh3 02:33:51 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 02:37:15 *** debdog has quit IRC 02:40:23 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 02:45:54 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:56:27 *** TrueBrain_ii has quit IRC 02:57:05 *** TrueBrain_ii has joined #openttd 02:59:19 *** glx has quit IRC 03:03:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] 2TallTyler commented on issue #8167: No error message subtitle for if house can't be replaced while building industry https://git.io/JfVeI 03:22:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv 04:15:22 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 05:30:42 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 05:59:50 *** nielsm has quit IRC 06:02:34 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:19:42 *** arikover has joined #openttd 06:24:14 <arikover> moin 06:26:53 <supermop_Home> yo 06:36:17 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:50:28 <andythenorth> o/ 06:59:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv 07:35:32 *** cHawk- has quit IRC 07:41:40 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 07:59:03 *** Samu has joined #openttd 07:59:45 *** D-HUND is now known as debdog 08:05:39 <Timberwolf> That industry terraforming cost thing could get a bit interesting if you take method:prospecting into account. 08:25:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/Jf9my 08:48:48 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 08:55:47 <andythenorth> oof 08:56:02 <andythenorth> Horse needs *even more* box van wagons 08:56:08 <andythenorth> Steeltown has lots of cargos for them 08:56:19 <andythenorth> I like to use a different wagon type for each cargo 08:57:02 *** Progman has joined #openttd 09:09:45 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 09:11:17 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 09:40:09 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] auge8472 commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv 09:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds wasteful 09:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> one wagon to rule them all 09:42:33 <Eddi|zuHause> everything is containers 09:43:49 <andythenorth> I've already provided that option :P 09:47:25 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv 09:57:59 <Timberwolf> At some point I need to move Road Vehicles to using sprite composition so I can handle all these cargos without lumping everyone with a 200MB grf download. 10:06:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv 10:23:54 <arikover> andythenorth: "Horse needs *even more* box van wagons" "I like to use a different wagon type for each cargo" <-- You mean specific box vans for specific Steeltown cargos? Would they look totally different depending on the cargo? 10:24:08 <andythenorth> no 10:24:13 <andythenorth> I tried that, it's weird :) 10:24:49 <andythenorth> more like https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html#box_car_pony_gen_5B vs https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html#sliding_wall_car_pony_gen_5B 10:26:13 <arikover> Are there other van types besides "normal box" and "sliding wall"? 10:26:42 <andythenorth> there's a curtain side 10:27:03 <andythenorth> there's also 'roof + sides slide' 10:27:17 <andythenorth> https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html#curtain_side_box_car_pony_gen_5C 10:27:24 <andythenorth> I didn't do roof + sides slide 10:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> historically, there's different liveries for company-owned wagons 10:27:36 <andythenorth> yes 10:27:47 <andythenorth> so one option is just a colour variant 10:28:11 <andythenorth> https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html#dump_car_pony_gen_3A vs https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/iron-horse/docs/html/trains.html#scrap_metal_car_pony_gen_3A 10:28:16 <andythenorth> as example 10:31:17 <FLHerne> arikover: There are vans where the body slides longitudinally on springs 10:31:29 <FLHerne> To reduce impact forces when shunting 10:31:39 <FLHerne> for fragile cargos 10:31:47 <FLHerne> And banana vans, with steam heating 10:32:10 <andythenorth> could do shockvans 10:32:18 <FLHerne> And of course now there are refrigerated vans 10:32:18 <andythenorth> also sliding roof + doors https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/belgian4whvan/e1109fbbd 10:32:24 <andythenorth> fridge is in 10:32:27 <Eddi|zuHause> a predecessor for modern refrigerated cars were "fish wagons" which had an ice storage 10:32:43 <andythenorth> also 'holdall' https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ferrynorskhydro 10:33:22 <FLHerne> And conflats, which look like old vans but are really containers on flat wagons 10:33:24 <FLHerne> https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs20.postimg.cc%2Fsl8hwj5u5%2Fconflats_zps5b2b3f63.jpg&f=1&nofb=1 10:34:18 <andythenorth> conflats could be done as earlier gen intermodal 10:34:27 <andythenorth> currently it makes some fixed assumptions about ISO containers 10:34:32 <andythenorth> but that could be changed 10:36:31 <andythenorth> also the current vans switch from 33% width doors to 100% width doors 10:36:40 <andythenorth> but that could be split into two tech tree branches 10:38:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8214: WIP: Refactor gfx engine's dirty block system https://git.io/Jf9Zj 10:40:28 * andythenorth could graft on horse forever 10:45:18 <arikover> Woa. So many vans. 10:45:22 <andythenorth> auto-parts wagon? 10:45:25 <arikover> andythenorth: So would they be random variations of the same vehicle (ID), or totally different vehicles? 10:45:31 <andythenorth> different ID 10:45:39 <andythenorth> random is 1CC / 2CC already 10:46:04 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You could just make them more random :p 10:46:28 <andythenorth> the implementation is less interesting than figuring out what changes in the sprite :) 10:46:29 <arikover> I like random. 10:56:45 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 11:03:28 <andythenorth> need more steel wagons too 11:04:06 <andythenorth> there are 7 iron / steel cargos in Steeltown 11:04:50 <FLHerne> Well, there's no shortage of those 11:06:06 <andythenorth> https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsteelwagon 11:06:42 <andythenorth> currently there's a plate wagon, a flat wagon, and a coil carrier 11:09:53 <andythenorth> oh there's the torpedo car also 11:19:40 <andythenorth> maybe wire rod wagon 11:41:55 <andythenorth> maybe I should finish FIRS 4 and leave Horse alone :P 11:42:03 <andythenorth> or Unsinkable Sam 11:42:07 <andythenorth> or CHIPS 11:42:20 <andythenorth> or I could do NRT Road Hog 11:45:50 <FLHerne> Finally ordered a new computer 11:46:24 <FLHerne> Now I'll have fewer excuses to feel unproductive :-/ 11:47:16 <andythenorth> one excuse is always enough 11:47:54 <FLHerne> Yeah, but "my laptop is slower than a dead snail" is a pretty good excuse 11:48:13 <FLHerne> It's 10x slower than whatever your FIRS build-time numbers are from 11:49:15 <FLHerne> Building Qt is a "leave it overnight" job, which makes it very easy not to bother upgrading my apps :p 11:49:44 <arikover> andythenorth: Maybe you could make a poll on the forums "What should I do next? 1.FIRS4 2.UnsinkableSam 3.CHIPS 4. NRT RoadHog" 11:50:43 <andythenorth> my new laptop is slower than my old one :P 11:50:48 <andythenorth> for certain limited cases 11:53:52 <arikover> A propos ordering new computers: does anyone here know a good place to order computer with Linux-Compatible hardware? 11:55:29 <frosch123> desktop or notebook? 11:56:15 <arikover> desktop (and maybe notebook) 11:57:06 <frosch123> https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/ <- i never go around to order there, but they have favourable reviews on heise and stuff 11:57:24 <frosch123> they run their own debian or ubuntu derivate 11:58:49 <frosch123> https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Deutscher-Notebook-Hersteller-Tuxedo-jetzt-mit-eigener-Linux-Distribution-3762311.html 12:01:21 <arikover> thank you! 12:02:00 <andythenorth> eh I could split up flat and bolster wagon 12:02:02 <andythenorth> hmm 12:16:39 <FLHerne> arikover: I just bought a lot of bits to put together, which is probably the cheapest option 12:16:56 <FLHerne> For somewhat high-end computers, anyway 12:42:51 <andythenorth> how much are computers now? 12:43:42 <FLHerne> Well, it depends :p 12:44:20 <andythenorth> mine is about £2/day 12:44:39 <FLHerne> A Pi 4 is a perfectly adequate desktop, and that's maybe £60 with a case and charger 12:44:49 <FLHerne> I just spent about £750 on parts for mine 12:44:50 <andythenorth> it's not bad when compared to e.g. Photoshop, which is £0.50/day 12:45:00 <FLHerne> Which I expect to last probably five years or so 12:45:10 <andythenorth> how much did you sell the old parts for? 12:45:59 <FLHerne> Thoroughly obsolete, so they'll stay on the shelf in case I need them 12:46:12 <FLHerne> I might have got £50 or something 12:46:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: i arrived at something like 0.40€/day 12:47:22 <andythenorth> we value computers in interesting ways 12:47:27 <frosch123> mainboard, cpu, ram are approaching 10 years 12:47:45 <andythenorth> I use mine for ~16 hours/day almost every day 12:48:16 <frosch123> oh, i also got lucky with the displays 12:48:18 <andythenorth> I have a transit van that will cost me £2500 / year just on purchase price, excluding tax, insurance, diesel 12:48:27 <frosch123> others broke way earlier 12:48:29 <andythenorth> the van is used average 2 hours most weeks 12:49:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: how much on coffee? :p 12:49:05 <andythenorth> just diesel costs almost as much as the computer :P 12:49:14 <andythenorth> coffee, £0.35 per pod, 5-6 pods a day 12:49:15 <FLHerne> That sounds like hiring a van might be easier 12:49:26 <FLHerne> *cheaper 12:49:34 <andythenorth> hiring is all good until you have a sick kid etc 12:49:54 <andythenorth> I didn't own a proper vehicle until I was 40 years old 12:51:45 <supermop_Home> andythenorth ditch the pods? coffee $ can go pretty far on even very fancy coffee 12:52:12 <andythenorth> when I buy ground coffee in bags, I use too much 12:52:22 <supermop_Home> buy whole beans! 12:52:23 <andythenorth> even with a small cafetiere 12:52:26 <supermop_Home> also a scale 12:52:53 <supermop_Home> acaia one has served me well over 5 years, no issues 12:53:09 <andythenorth> there was a lifecycle analysis of coffee pods vs grounds 12:53:26 <andythenorth> if the pods are actually recycled, they're the most ethical solution currently 12:53:45 <andythenorth> you can get precise dose beans machines though 12:53:49 <andythenorth> we have one at work 12:54:22 <supermop_Home> i feel like that assumes the user is using their beans in a deliberatelt imprecise manner? 12:54:51 <andythenorth> most of us do 12:54:57 <andythenorth> precise dose beans machines ftw 12:55:07 <andythenorth> the one at work annoys me though 12:55:22 <supermop_Home> also the benefit of ground a few seconds before brewing does make a big difference vs ground a few months before 12:55:25 <andythenorth> whenever I want to use it, it's either out of water, beans, or it's full, or it's got a temporary fault 12:56:32 <supermop_Home> electric pour-over kettle, decent grinder, and a scale is probably cheaper and less bulky than that machine? 12:57:03 <andythenorth> all of that at 7am 12:57:07 <andythenorth> I could not do :) 12:57:28 <andythenorth> also, being candid about it, I can afford the pods :P 12:58:22 * Timberwolf goes for the hand grinder and Moka Express option. 12:58:39 <frosch123> i have hand grinder and french press 12:58:52 *** glx has joined #openttd 12:58:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 12:59:18 <supermop_Home> i used hario hand grinder whole time i was in australia 12:59:22 <frosch123> so many methods of brewing coffee 12:59:24 <Timberwolf> I like using coffee making as an enforced break of 5 minutes, though, especially being wfh. 13:00:22 <supermop_Home> because at that time i felt there was no adequate affordable electric burr grinder, and i didn't want to pay for a 220v/50hz electric that i knew i would only use for a couple years 13:00:27 *** gelignite has quit IRC 13:01:25 <supermop_Home> the Bodum burr grinder was cheap enough ( and stylish enough) in the US to overlook its shortcomings, but in autralia it's real cost was almost double 13:02:21 <supermop_Home> when my US bodum grinder broke, i bought a Baratza Encore and it has been amazing 13:02:58 * andythenorth has pony wishes 13:03:18 <supermop_Home> well exceeded expectations for price and service, so much that i wish i'd bought the more expensive model as i know it'd be money well spent 13:03:22 <andythenorth> 1. hp / ton calculation displayed for vehicles (preferably based on capacity, not current load) 13:03:49 <andythenorth> 2. pop-open extended info window for vehicles (1 simple text region fed by a text cb) 13:04:13 <supermop_Home> andythenorth my pony wish is a Mahlkonig EK43 (short) and a LaMarzocco GS3 or Linea Mini 13:05:01 <andythenorth> coffee newgrf 13:06:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: if the unit wouldn't be so silly, i would prefer a "time till max speed on flat track at full load" stat in vehicle details 13:06:35 <frosch123> but "5 days" sounds so stupid :p 13:07:19 <Timberwolf> I had a hire car from a garage once where that would have sounded about right. 13:07:54 <andythenorth> frosch123 acceleration time 13:08:06 <andythenorth> it's exactly equivalent to 0-60mph figure used to sell cars 13:08:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: https://www.myabandonware.com/media/screenshots/t/test-drive-di/thumbs/test-drive_1.png <- games used to have that kind of chart 13:08:31 <andythenorth> yes 13:08:38 <andythenorth> the best ones, you could change the gear ratios 13:08:40 <supermop_Home> frosch123 we could just name that as a new unit that means (openTTD units speed / openTTD Days) 13:08:53 <arikover> andythenorth: I also liked RRTy2's table MaxSpeed(NrOfCars,Grade) 13:09:13 <supermop_Home> "this train has 43 kiloFrosches" 13:09:16 <andythenorth> so real life railways have 2 metrics afaict 13:09:46 <andythenorth> drag freight has 'ruling grade', i.e what's the steepest grade this train will actually keep moving over 13:10:00 <andythenorth> but usually seems to be expressed as HP/ton, and there is a required HP/ton for any route 13:10:25 <andythenorth> the other key metric seems to be around how fast a train will regain line speed after stopping 13:10:35 <andythenorth> this is important for pax trains with frequent stops 13:11:24 <andythenorth> we don't can't probably shouldn't simulate the second metric 13:11:41 <andythenorth> acceleration rate requires some value for torque, which we don't have in the physics 13:12:41 <andythenorth> the gameplay benefit is negligible, but in theory high-speed trains often accelerate relatively slowly compared to e.g. commuter trains 13:18:34 <supermop_Home> it certainly shows up in game at times, as i find one ends up having to make absurd tight headways on commuter/local lines often 13:19:07 <supermop_Home> in that case its more about 'how fast can this 5 tile train clear this 5 tile station' 13:21:38 <supermop_Home> if the dwell time is 4-6 days (frequent with horse) and the headway 10 days (also often needed to keep up with demand) there is a real risk that many trains will just barely clear that bit of station when the next arrives 13:22:14 <supermop_Home> and 10 days is not even particularly frequent... 13:30:27 <andythenorth> I work around it by making the EMUs relatively high powered 13:31:51 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:39:14 <supermop_Home> yeah - i use mus for most everything 13:39:26 <supermop_Home> though so do train operators 13:43:00 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 13:44:06 <supermop_Home> belts as tramway? 13:44:12 <supermop_Home> belts as pipe? 13:51:27 <andythenorth> belts as belts? :P 13:51:36 <andythenorth> I have low confidence that we could introduce a new transport type :D 13:52:21 <andythenorth> although it would be the most lolz change we could make to ottd now 13:53:26 <supermop_Home> especially as it mostly just replicates the effect of a large station spread 13:53:47 <glx> andythenorth: belts as a road type ;) 13:54:12 <supermop_Home> with the one unique use of 'gradually distribute a large bulk delivery overtime' 13:54:24 <supermop_Home> basically doing the work of an industry for it 13:55:42 <supermop_Home> the other prototypical case of get this raw material from the its awkward location down to the port /station isn't really a proble 13:55:58 <supermop_Home> but i still dream of log flumes 13:57:42 <supermop_Home> "New Log Available" 13:58:07 <supermop_Home> "Would you like a year's exclusive use of this log to test it?" 13:58:53 <_dp_> rvs are kind of filling the role of super close range transportation atm, and sometimes ships 13:59:04 <_dp_> belts mb a nice alternative I guess if done right 13:59:33 <nielsm> belts and pipes are basically the same too 13:59:54 <_dp_> nielsm, not if we're talking realism 14:00:21 <supermop_Home> _dp_ there are only a few areas that _need_ belts/pipes, but i think they are attractive as an 'eyecandy that actually has a purpose' 14:01:04 <_dp_> supermop_Home, yeah, just carefult not to make "eyecandy that breaks the game" 14:01:18 <supermop_Home> nielsm i could see a belt as a 'pipetype' 14:02:55 <nielsm> also powerlines 14:03:05 <nielsm> "continuous delivery mode" 14:04:25 <_dp_> it's all nice but how about fixing ships first :p 14:04:27 <supermop_Home> something that has a high per tile cost to build and maintain, 14:04:47 <supermop_Home> but very cheap vehicles 14:05:14 <supermop_Home> _dp_ what is wrong with ships? 14:05:23 <_dp_> they're lost? 14:05:35 <supermop_Home> use bouys? 14:07:09 <supermop_Home> ships with multiple holds would be nice 14:09:08 <_dp_> bouys aren't exactly a good solution for https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/8001 14:10:18 <nielsm> and it seems YAPF for ships still has some kind of distance limit where it will just go in a straight line towards toe destination, and eventually find itself continually bumping into a corner 14:15:12 <milek7> powerlines/pipe shouldn't have 'vehicles' at all 14:16:55 <supermop_Home> indeed 14:17:12 <_dp_> cargopackets moving by themselves? xD 14:17:51 <supermop_Home> though i'm not sure what powerlines would do 14:18:01 <_dp_> also would probably go well with adding routes to ui instead of shared orders 14:20:32 <supermop_Home> power boosting production or town growth could just be a 'is there an active powerplant within x tiles" or even just 'does the map produce enough power globally'? 14:20:35 <milek7> it should probably build 'network map', and distribute production immediately 14:22:01 <supermop_Home> not entirely convinced that building powerlines makes sense for a transport game, or even that it is fun.... 14:22:28 <andythenorth> the unit transport type would move cargo from tile to tile at a rate 14:22:30 <_dp_> it would be a curious addition if electric engines actually consumed energy 14:22:48 <nielsm> powerlines should perhaps be something that exists and you need to build around 14:22:50 <supermop_Home> it might be interesting to be similar to transmitters 14:22:59 <nielsm> (indestructible like transmitters and lighthouses) 14:23:02 <andythenorth> is it like the rivers I always demolish? 14:23:08 <andythenorth> 'indestructible' :D 14:23:15 <andythenorth> these days I always play with magic bulldozer 14:23:21 <andythenorth> sandbox mode: True 14:23:30 <supermop_Home> yeah - as objects or a 'field' for power plants / substations 14:23:55 <milek7> do these ideas slowly turning into simcity? ;d 14:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause> we used to have a rejection reason "this is not sim city" 14:25:43 <supermop_Home> _dp_ what if vehicles have fuel cost, as a portion of the running costs 14:25:47 <Timberwolf> Powerlines, belts, "biter attack" disaster type... :p 14:26:28 <_dp_> supermop_Home, you mean supplying fuel removes that cost? 14:26:36 <supermop_Home> and over time the 'fuel cost' variable changes differently for steam/diesel/electric 14:27:15 <supermop_Home> and perhaps is further changed by some commodity pricing 14:27:24 <_dp_> supermop_Home, you need an economy for that to work :p 14:28:20 <supermop_Home> _dp_ it could be pretty simple, just "is there an active powerplant?" 14:28:33 <nielsm> just a static/randomized curve of fuel prices for the game 14:28:45 <_dp_> currently running costs don't do anything good imo 14:28:49 <supermop_Home> nielsm yeah 14:29:01 <_dp_> either you play for money and they're irrelevant or you play for fun and they kill you 14:29:48 <supermop_Home> just something like what is cheap in 1890 is expensive in 1980 and vis versa 14:31:05 <supermop_Home> and there is a little bonus if power plants are productive - 14:31:33 <supermop_Home> so that for some games it will make sense to electrify, and for some it will not 14:33:56 <andythenorth> +1 on running costs 14:34:07 <andythenorth> consistently they've had to come down in my vehicle grfs 14:34:29 <andythenorth> the lolz is that FIRS has had to widely space cargo payment rates 14:34:35 <andythenorth> so some Horse trains now make insane profit 14:35:36 <nielsm> also variable cargo payment rates? 14:36:03 <andythenorth> that would be a thing 14:36:03 <nielsm> for those it might actually make sense to tie it to total amount transported in the game 14:36:03 <andythenorth> then there could be a supply and demand economy 14:36:03 <_dp_> imo economy in openttd is so broken that I'd rather see more stuff to be removed from it than added 14:36:09 <_dp_> like signal maintenance cost 14:36:11 <_dp_> and inflation 14:37:37 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 14:37:37 <andythenorth> there are multiple ways this can all be done 14:37:37 <andythenorth> but it's all blocked by GS 14:37:37 <andythenorth> GS makes it all impossible 14:37:37 <andythenorth> oh I said I'd get kicked if I complained about GS again :) 14:37:37 <nielsm> also to encourage players to spread across multiple cargo types 14:37:46 <andythenorth> oops 14:37:46 <andythenorth> _dp_ can complain about it instead 14:37:46 <andythenorth> maybe I can do it in newgrf already 14:37:46 <andythenorth> _dp_ +1 14:37:56 <andythenorth> all this dumb 'balancing' crap 14:38:02 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 14:38:03 <andythenorth> as though it could ever be balanced 14:38:28 <andythenorth> hmm where's the newgrf cb for custom cargo payment 14:39:00 <andythenorth> this is under-used :D https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Custom_profit_calculation_for_cargoes_.2839.29 14:39:57 <andythenorth> wonder what else it has in scope 14:40:16 <andythenorth> I wanted to store a price factor in every tile, or station, or town 14:40:37 <andythenorth> I also wanted the grfid and vehicle ID that the cargo was unloaded from 14:42:34 * andythenorth DOES NOT NEED TO DO THIS AT ALL :) 14:42:40 <andythenorth> back to FIRS :P 14:44:44 <_dp_> it can be balanced but for each game mode separately, so totally shouldn't be a core game goal imo 14:45:59 <_dp_> my wishes for core game are 1) stability 2) better ui 3) configurability 4) extensibility xD 14:48:30 <_dp_> eh, could've changed 2) to usability for full-bility combo xD 14:51:42 <andythenorth> my goal is another level of timetabling 14:51:47 <andythenorth> and conditional orders 14:51:59 <andythenorth> maybe programmable signals that refit the trains passing by 14:55:19 <nielsm> multiomodal transport where you move entire containers of stuff 14:55:38 <nielsm> and can follow the same container with same design on a ship, train, and truck 14:56:17 <nielsm> prereq: cargodest 14:57:58 <andythenorth> vehicles-in-vehicles 14:58:03 <andythenorth> peter started a patch for it 14:58:16 <andythenorth> also provides ferries 14:58:17 <nielsm> car ferries! 14:58:19 <nielsm> train ferries! 14:58:19 <andythenorth> can never work :) 14:59:12 <_dp_> zombies! :p 15:03:08 <arikover> Voxel Tycoon has belts: https://voxeltycoon.xyz/devlog/factories 15:04:44 <nielsm> yeah and simutrans has power lines 15:04:59 <arikover> _dp_: I remember I watched an online OTTD-Game with a "zombie apocalypse" GS running. Really funny! 15:05:00 <nielsm> and both of those are different, but inspired-by games 15:12:17 <supermop_Home> nielsm how about i can follow a pallet from container to container and a box from pallet to pallet 15:12:34 <nielsm> now you're thinking with crates! 15:12:59 <arikover> That's called UPS. 15:13:00 <nielsm> move ur cargo while u move ur cargo 15:13:17 <supermop_Home> put coal in cardboard box -> fedex box to power plant 15:19:53 <arikover> Topic micromanagement: how about train shunting? This fork was funny: https://github.com/Palo123/OpenTTD-YPS 15:20:10 <arikover> Well, a bit too complicated. 15:20:30 <_dp_> arikover, yeah, and I was the one who made it ;) 15:21:12 <arikover> The zombie GS? 15:21:22 <_dp_> wasn't gs but yes 15:21:37 <arikover> Really? What was it then? 15:21:44 <arikover> AI? 15:21:47 <_dp_> server patch 15:22:22 <supermop_Home> shunting was fun 15:22:42 <supermop_Home> certainly made your capacity way lower 15:22:47 <arikover> _dp_: It was really epic! 15:22:57 <supermop_Home> and encouraged you to just use MUs all the time 15:23:32 <supermop_Home> and it was too easy to leave wagons or trains with locomotive at wrong end stranded 15:23:52 <supermop_Home> and the only way to rescue them was to crash a train into them 15:24:48 <milek7> they couldn't drive backwards? 15:24:52 <arikover> supermop_Home: and setting the orders was really boring. 15:25:03 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:25:32 <supermop_Home> milek7 they could, but you could get them stuck in weird ways 15:25:41 <arikover> milek7: yes they could. It was a nice feature. In fact, this feature alone was nice. 15:27:52 <supermop_Home> if a train was leading with a wagon forward and you broke up the train, it was possible to end up with the wagon with no HP as the 'train', and the locomotive as just abandoned wagons with no number or ordersen 15:28:23 <supermop_Home> then the 'train' could never move, nor could another train come to couple to it 15:29:39 <supermop_Home> as arikover says, one of the nicest features was simply running a push-pull train 15:29:58 <arikover> with NARS 2.5 <3 15:30:37 <nielsm> just having reversible trains would be nice 15:30:39 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 15:32:39 <arikover> Trains running in reverse were limited in speed (60km/h iirc). 15:33:37 <nielsm> give caboose cars a function (allows a shunting engineer to ride on the back at increased speeds, to instruct the loco driver) 15:34:01 <supermop_Home> the shunting patch worked great for push-pull, and for things like drop off wagons at a mine, run around and pick up some already full cars 15:34:36 <supermop_Home> nielsm you could do that, so song as the caboose, driving van, etc was coded as a locomotive 15:36:00 <supermop_Home> so trains with driving van or rear loco can reverse and proceed at full speed, but a train without has to take the time to move locomotive to the other end of the train 15:36:23 *** otetede has joined #openttd 15:36:32 <supermop_Home> so you had to allow space for head -shunts and sidings at your stations 15:36:39 <supermop_Home> it was very fun to watch 15:38:37 <supermop_Home> but i found i often ended up just building balloon loops or top-and-tailing all my freights to save time and/or space 15:39:33 <arikover> and the order management was really complicated. 15:41:02 <supermop_Home> due to tt's weird scale its actually much more spatially efficient to build a loop for a ro-ro station than the sidings (with junctions and signals) for a simple end of line shunting set-up 15:41:15 <nielsm> the transport model of transport tycoon is totally broken compared to reality and trying to impose shunting on it just causes it to make even less sense 15:41:36 <supermop_Home> indeed - it was just nice to watch the trains moving back and forth 15:42:02 <nielsm> yeah, a station manager simulator/puzzle can be fun 15:42:11 <nielsm> (I just did a bunch of shunting jobs in derail valley myself) 15:42:22 <nielsm> but it's a different game 15:42:43 <nielsm> as is the logistics of making sure the right empty cars are at the right station at the right time 15:43:21 <supermop_Home> also in openttd the relative cost of a locomotive is low compared to tracks, wagons, and the cost of time 15:43:31 <nielsm> I'm sure zachtronics could make a programming game out of it :) 15:44:45 <arikover> supermop_Home: unless you use the daylength patch. 15:45:44 <nielsm> but really, I think 95% of the fun could be had in ottd with two features: trains that can run in reverse, if they have a compatible cab at the back end. and an option to disable magical reversing. 15:46:16 <supermop_Home> nielsm yes, that fun gem in the patch 15:46:20 <nielsm> and maybe add large depots as a feature, which could double as magical shunting yards 15:46:26 <supermop_Home> and that part worked well 15:47:06 <supermop_Home> really it should have been split out as a separate patch to start with 15:47:23 <arikover> "Train can drive in reverse at low speed unless there is a proper driving cab" and "reversing at stations is possible but takes more time" 15:48:10 <supermop_Home> yes, a time penalty to magic reverse is probably a good idea, incase a single ended train gets lost and stuck at some dead end 15:48:37 <nielsm> hmm, have stations where every second platform is replaced with a shunting track, you would never see anything actually running on those but it would speed up moving the loco to the other end for trains stopped in adjacent tracks 15:49:35 <arikover> supermop_Home: and it rewards the player that uses driving cabs 15:49:43 <supermop_Home> the other thing that the patch wasn't ever able to accomplish was splitting up EMUs at a station 15:49:50 <andythenorth> but not the player that uses railcar trailers :P 15:49:55 <andythenorth> oof 15:49:58 <andythenorth> Horse rekt 15:50:01 * andythenorth deletes it 15:50:16 <supermop_Home> andythenorth just keep the trailers in the middle of consist 15:50:25 <supermop_Home> imagine that they don't have cabs 15:50:34 <arikover> except if railcar trailers can have properties "isDrivingCab: True" 15:50:36 <andythenorth> such lollogians 15:50:38 <supermop_Home> A car vs B car on a subway train 15:51:26 <nielsm> arikover: actually should have flags for "cab at first end, cab at second end" 15:52:25 <supermop_Home> the EMU thing cant really be solved by the patch's approach to shunting - the left behind unit were essentially 'birthed' as a new train with no orders, and no history 15:53:02 <andythenorth> hmm 15:53:08 * andythenorth must design some wagons then 15:53:15 <supermop_Home> rather the patch would have needed 'consists', which can have orders, and which can join together into one train 15:54:09 <supermop_Home> lots of rabbit holes to get lost in - which is why separating out the 'train drives in reverse' part as a separate patch might be more helpful 15:54:28 <arikover> an eyecandy way to make "mine shunting" would be to make the engine invisible while loading. 15:54:41 <supermop_Home> that is easier to define the goals of, and to plan for what siuations might arise 15:55:46 <arikover> ...and the when loading is complete *poof* the engine pops up. Meh. 15:56:36 <nielsm> yeah first thing would be to look at how actual production timetables (?) are made 15:57:12 <nielsm> it takes a bit getting used to, but SimSig can (obviously) do all the shunting stuff with splitting and merging trains, and having trains with and without power 15:57:30 <nielsm> it's just an entirely different thing too 16:05:02 <andythenorth> auto-parts wagon? https://gingespotting.smugmug.com/Wagons/K-TOPSCode/KSA/i-x7Kkg4T 16:13:33 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:29:15 *** otetede has quit IRC 16:33:42 <supermop_Home> no Z scale Narita Express that i can fine 16:33:50 <supermop_Home> find 16:34:36 <supermop_Home> i wonder.. how insane would trying to be a Z scale monorail be... 16:34:42 <supermop_Home> gah 16:34:44 <supermop_Home> build 16:35:04 <supermop_Home> being a z scale monorail probably would be more insane 16:38:08 <supermop_Home> i imagine you'd essentially put a T scale engine inside the bodyshell 16:49:34 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #8204: cmake: make install DESTDIR="something" ignores GLOBAL_DIR option https://git.io/JfM9j 16:51:50 <andythenorth> oh 16:52:04 <andythenorth> what if *all* construction costs included the cost of clearing the land :P 16:59:17 <nielsm> actually, stuff like farmland, rough land, ... 16:59:31 <nielsm> or maybe just make the cost of clearing grass zero 17:00:36 <Speeder_> is it possible using GS to define production of a single industry? 17:00:52 <Speeder_> for example define that a certain industry should have 10x or 100x default production 17:06:01 <_dp_> Speeder_, no 17:11:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8215: Industry build cost does not take into account land clear costs https://git.io/Jf9vv 17:14:19 <andythenorth> Speeder_ top tip, if you're question starts 'it is possible using GS..." 17:14:30 <andythenorth> and the end is "[anything to do with newgrf]" 17:14:31 <andythenorth> then no 17:15:26 <frosch123> Speeder_: gs are mostly about adding some type of scoring. little about changing the mechanics 17:15:46 <andythenorth> they can't change the game economy 17:16:23 <_dp_> in a hacky way they can 17:16:52 <andythenorth> eh? :) 17:16:53 <_dp_> like there is shared road payment gs that works sometimes 17:16:58 <andythenorth> can't change cargo payment 17:17:02 <andythenorth> can't change industry production 17:17:13 <andythenorth> can't reliably build types of industry 17:17:16 <andythenorth> can't close industry 17:17:23 <milek7> you could calculate cargo payment yourself and extra money to the player, no? :D 17:17:24 <andythenorth> can't control town growth 17:17:28 <_dp_> can close (dynamite) 17:17:28 <andythenorth> can't build houses 17:17:41 <andythenorth> ha is there a magic bulldozer option? :D 17:17:43 <_dp_> can build houses, just not in exact location :p 17:17:44 <milek7> s/extra/pay extra/ 17:17:50 <andythenorth> can't control cdist 17:18:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, since recently deity can destroy industries 17:18:07 <andythenorth> awesome :) 17:18:10 <andythenorth> that's lolz 17:19:37 <andythenorth> I'm kinda just complaining for effect 17:19:56 <andythenorth> TL;DR GS is great for Silicon Valley or NCG or town growth scripts 17:20:17 <andythenorth> if I could actually write GS I'd like it more 17:21:34 <andythenorth> I do have like 25 commits on Busy Bee GS 17:21:53 <andythenorth> but most of those were followed by something like "Fix: (andy broke stuff) - Alberth" 17:25:40 <andythenorth> I would like to fork Silicon Valley though :P 17:27:21 <andythenorth> hmm can GS enumerate the active newgrfs? 17:27:22 * andythenorth looks 17:27:43 <andythenorth> nope 17:27:58 <andythenorth> could I use a non-buildable industry as a key? 17:28:25 <andythenorth> 16 in, 16 out cargos, I could encode that 'this is FIRS, version x.y.z, economy foo' 17:29:21 <andythenorth> maybe just the available industry types is enough of a unique fingerprint? 17:30:47 <_dp_> it usually uses cargo labels 17:31:14 <_dp_> and wasn't it like a design decision to hide newgrf info? 17:31:21 <_dp_> a stupid one if you ask me though 17:31:40 <andythenorth> I don't think there were any design decisions for GS? 17:32:01 <andythenorth> as I understand it, it was just an extension of NoAI? 17:32:16 <_dp_> well, design stars alignment :p 17:32:42 <andythenorth> if it had waited to figure out newgrf compatibility it would never be done 17:32:53 <andythenorth> as nobody here has ever proposed any workable solution to that 17:32:56 <andythenorth> :) 17:34:05 <andythenorth> what shall I call my GS? 17:34:26 <andythenorth> should it be one GS per FIRS economy, or just one GS, and some auto-detection crap? 17:34:57 <frosch123> you also have parameters 17:35:08 <andythenorth> yes 17:35:17 <andythenorth> I think the most important thing is to have a GS name 17:35:19 <frosch123> and i am sure you would use the same firs templating 17:35:25 <andythenorth> then figure out what it actually should do 17:35:35 <andythenorth> Busier Bee? 17:35:38 <andythenorth> Silicon Alley? 17:35:44 <andythenorth> NoCatGoal? 17:35:55 <frosch123> iron goal 17:36:08 <andythenorth> Industry Hog 17:36:28 <frosch123> better gs 17:36:32 <_dp_> if it's for firs it should probably iclude "firs" in name :p 17:36:40 <andythenorth> I considered that 17:36:47 <andythenorth> but it makes FIRS problem even worse 17:36:48 <frosch123> andy's FIRSt gs 17:37:05 <andythenorth> already there are forums and redditors who get FIRS docks or FIRS vehicles or FIRS objects grfs 17:37:11 <andythenorth> reasonable mistake to make 17:37:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: we should rebrand "newgrf" to "firs" 17:37:34 <andythenorth> super! 17:37:57 <andythenorth> FIRS Unsinkable Iron Hog Bee Valley 17:38:05 <andythenorth> ok what should it do? 17:38:40 <frosch123> teach the player how to play firs correctly 17:38:46 <_dp_> FIRS galore 17:38:53 <frosch123> i am sure there is only one way to play it correctly 17:39:08 <andythenorth> apparently you have to setup precise timetables 17:39:15 <andythenorth> so FIRS can only be played with JGR 17:39:21 <andythenorth> otherwise industries don't produce anything 17:39:38 <andythenorth> anyway, if I stop being a dick....in FIRS Steeltown, I want to get a little medal for supplying Builders Yard and Vehicle Distributor industries with cargo 17:39:54 <andythenorth> maybe to about 5 of each, depending on map size 17:40:04 <andythenorth> ideally they'd be in the 5 largest towns on the map 17:40:13 <andythenorth> ideally the GS would ensure they exist 17:40:57 <andythenorth> unfortunately, for lolz the Builders Yard requires 4 different cargos :| 17:41:03 <andythenorth> which is horrible to put in a goal string 17:41:56 <andythenorth> "Supply at least 200t each of Cement, Pipe, Rebar, and Steel Sections to each builders yard in Fishytown, Dingville, Hillbottom, Spilsgate and Tinkletown" 17:42:23 <andythenorth> somewhat, it would be nice if an industry could indicate a satisfaction level, -16..16 17:42:47 <andythenorth> so GS can ignore internal details of industries 17:43:10 <andythenorth> but then again, then it can't show the required amounts in the goal 17:43:43 <andythenorth> other economies would have different kinds of goal 17:43:51 <andythenorth> but in all cases, I want a little medal :P 17:49:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace. https://git.io/Jf9VX 17:57:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace. https://git.io/Jf9VX 18:02:55 <_dp_> andythenorth, are you trying to discourage ppl from posting silly bugs by replying with silly comments? :p 18:04:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace. https://git.io/Jf9VX 18:19:34 <andythenorth> not in that case 18:19:40 <andythenorth> although I wouldn't rule it out in future 18:20:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on issue #8216: It is possible to get a "Cost: £0" float from autoreplace. https://git.io/Jf9VX 18:22:29 <_dp_> btw, it may be worth to only show thoose income/cost things in full details as I have a suspicion they add significant render time in some cases 18:23:31 <_dp_> mb just income and transfer though 18:23:51 <andythenorth> I swear I can correlate them with fps drops 18:24:10 <andythenorth> I used to have the identical issue in flash games 18:24:22 <andythenorth> rendering moving fonts over moving backgrounds seemed to suck 18:25:54 <_dp_> may not even be as much font rendering as background redraw 18:29:59 <_dp_> train heads redraw a lot in general for some reason 19:03:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Nik-mmzd commented on issue #8204: cmake: make install DESTDIR="something" ignores GLOBAL_DIR option https://git.io/JfM9j 19:21:26 <glx> ok let's see how to use GNUInstallDirs cmake module 19:52:30 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 19:53:10 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 19:54:25 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 19:56:46 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:18:10 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 20:19:17 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 20:32:39 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 21:13:44 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:22:12 *** jback has quit IRC 21:22:13 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:23:17 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 21:23:33 *** jback has joined #openttd 21:40:07 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:56:46 *** Samu has quit IRC 22:04:46 *** Laedek has quit IRC 22:04:46 *** Tirili has quit IRC 22:05:09 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 22:10:46 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz opened pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9yI 22:13:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9yI 22:15:58 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:17:38 *** Speeder has joined #openttd 22:19:47 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 22:20:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9y2 22:22:42 *** Speeder_ has quit IRC 22:26:22 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9y1 22:28:36 <FLHerne> nielsm: Is that a desired outcome of the commit checker? 22:28:41 <FLHerne> It seems weird to me 22:29:04 <nielsm> yes it's intentional it accepts that syntax and not the other 22:29:38 <nielsm> previously the commit checker actually required preprocessor commands to be indented before the # instead of after the # 22:29:56 <nielsm> but I think the standard actually requires # to be in the first column, or something like that 22:36:59 <FLHerne> nielsm: That only seems to be the case for pre-ANSI C 22:37:20 <FLHerne> Given that OTTD depends on C++11, isn't that a non-issue? 22:40:01 <nielsm> maybe? 22:40:51 <nielsm> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD-git-hooks/commit/c678c6d72c8a60d7b45c3b1ac1d7313c1efca0a2 22:41:34 <nielsm> it's late, gn 22:42:27 <FLHerne> goodnight 22:44:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9S8 22:49:38 *** nielsm has quit IRC 22:54:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9SD 23:06:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf994 23:13:14 *** gelignite has quit IRC 23:17:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9yI 23:30:52 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9Hx 23:42:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz updated pull request #8217: WIP: Prepare: Port GUI rendering improvements from JGRPP https://git.io/Jf9yI 23:50:12 *** Progman has quit IRC