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00:27:34 *** arikover has quit IRC 00:30:50 *** keoz has quit IRC 00:51:28 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 01:23:00 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 01:34:04 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 01:39:49 *** glx has quit IRC 01:50:25 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 01:51:02 *** supermop_Home has quit IRC 02:16:05 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 02:22:37 *** debdog has joined #openttd 02:26:00 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 02:41:22 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 03:01:50 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 03:55:55 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 04:25:06 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 05:13:47 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 06:04:08 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 06:14:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar https://git.io/JfNtV 06:15:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar https://git.io/JfNtw 06:31:55 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 06:33:12 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:39:56 <andythenorth> o/ 06:49:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 07:20:14 <nielsm> hm, that long post written on AIs yesterday makes me think, maybe it would be okay to add a setting to (individual) AI players to allow them to cheat 07:21:44 <nielsm> e.g. so those decoration road vehicles ones can just give themselves money, or allow an AI to get around local authority restrictions 07:22:17 <nielsm> allow AI authors to use the classic "can't make it smart so just give it an unfair advantage" trick 07:22:57 <andythenorth> maybe :) 07:23:09 <andythenorth> aren't they supposed to write a GS for decoration vehicles? 07:23:28 <nielsm> yeah that's been my argument previously too 07:23:32 <nielsm> "but I want to use another GS as well!" 07:23:51 <andythenorth> [repeat for every 'but use GS' case] 07:24:18 <LordAro> nielsm: wasn't "the original AI cheats" a huge reason for getting rid of it in the first place? 07:24:28 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 07:24:30 <LordAro> personally i don't really think the decoration AIs should exist 07:24:51 <LordAro> (i've not seen the post) 07:25:05 <nielsm> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1233456#p1233456 07:25:27 <andythenorth> maybe we should give AIs access to the GS API? 07:25:32 <andythenorth> then they could cheat as deity 07:25:38 <andythenorth> and do GS things 07:25:58 <nielsm> I'd want the player to give permission to an AI to cheat 07:26:09 <nielsm> i.e. a checkbox next to the starting date offset setting 07:26:30 <andythenorth> potato / potato for me 07:26:39 <andythenorth> I think the interesting thing is giving them unlimited powers 07:27:00 <LordAro> hmm 07:27:21 <LordAro> good thoughts in that post 07:27:37 <LordAro> i'd be perfectly happy with bundling an AI (SimpleAI?) with OTTD though 07:28:16 <nielsm> two challenges with bundling an AI: suddenly it's our job to maintain it 07:28:22 <andythenorth> failure demand 07:28:28 <nielsm> and someone will definitely come screaming "unfair competition" 07:28:41 <LordAro> sure, but in a way that's easier to do when it's bundled 07:28:49 <LordAro> there's plenty of AIs on bananas that just don't work 07:29:06 <andythenorth> so we've got some kind of curated list? 07:29:15 <LordAro> even AroAI has still has a potential crash if you have the right set of GRFs, iirc :) 07:30:22 <LordAro> nielsm: SimpleAI is the only AI i'm aware of that doesn't just go "all out" when trying to build stuff 07:30:23 <nielsm> it should perhaps also be easier to make an AI not crash, somehow 07:30:30 <LordAro> and it mimics the original 07:30:59 <LordAro> automatically restart the AI (as if reloading the game) on crash, perhaps? 07:31:09 <andythenorth> also, co-operative multi-tasking for GS? o_O 07:31:12 <LordAro> things would no doubt get stuck in a loop though 07:31:13 <andythenorth> 1980s comes to say hi 07:32:24 <andythenorth> what is the actual blocker to running n GS in one game? 07:32:52 <nielsm> just implementing it I think 07:33:14 <LordAro> also all existing GSes would fall apart if there were competing ones? 07:33:22 <LordAro> i don't see the benefit? 07:33:27 <nielsm> though the GS API allows lots of things that make me nervous of the question "but what if two scripts tried doing this at the same time?" 07:33:48 <andythenorth> well they wouldn't 07:33:55 <andythenorth> they would have an execution order 07:33:57 <andythenorth> :P 07:34:00 <nielsm> "almost at the same time" 07:34:02 <andythenorth> 'solved' 07:34:23 <andythenorth> what if 2 newgrfs both provide cargos? 07:34:29 <andythenorth> that tends to break 07:34:31 <LordAro> what would be the benefit of having 2 GS at once? 07:34:34 <nielsm> there may be some problems with goals and storybook 07:34:51 <andythenorth> LordAro because the content API evolution is pretty much dead now 07:35:06 <andythenorth> ~everything is diverted to 'do it in GS' 07:35:07 <LordAro> (i also ask what the benefit of having 2 (separate) industry GRFs at once is, tbh) 07:35:09 <andythenorth> but GS is useless 07:35:20 <andythenorth> daylength -> 'fixed in GS' 07:35:25 <andythenorth> economy -> 'fixed in GS' 07:35:33 <nielsm> the issue is players/server admins that want feature X from one GS and feature Y from another GS, and don't have the programming skills to manually smash them together 07:35:33 <andythenorth> town growth -> 'fixed in GS' 07:35:48 <andythenorth> but when I proposed merging all the GS I got told that's stupid 07:35:56 <LordAro> i'm not sure anyone has claimed that daylength is fixed by GS 07:36:12 <andythenorth> there's a GS now that does most of what most daylength users want 07:36:26 <andythenorth> spec was extended recently for it 07:37:00 <andythenorth> but if we gave AIs access to GS API, problem automatically solved? 07:37:23 * andythenorth must eat breakfast :D 07:37:29 <LordAro> that's a rather large oversimplification 07:37:40 <andythenorth> they're the easiest to pick holes in :) 07:37:52 <LordAro> well we already give "AIs" access to the GS API 07:37:59 <LordAro> we call them GameScripts 07:38:27 <LordAro> if you want multiple things to have access to GS API, say that 07:38:34 <LordAro> conflating the two just confuses things 07:39:56 <andythenorth> yes :) 07:40:31 <LordAro> exposing the GS API to the admin port might make things a bit more interesting 07:40:39 <LordAro> no idea how that would work though 07:40:45 <andythenorth> the question 'how could the AI be allowed to cheat' is also really interesting 07:41:02 <LordAro> my answer to that is a flat "no", tbh 07:41:24 <andythenorth> well that shortens the discussion at least 07:41:42 <LordAro> AIs do not get access to anything that (noncheating) human players do 07:41:57 <andythenorth> so....GS servers, via admin port? o_O 07:42:04 <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 07:42:13 <LordAro> people have always complained that the adminport is too limited 07:42:28 <andythenorth> it's a radical proposal 07:42:30 <LordAro> i'm not actually sure what it does, tbh 07:42:50 <andythenorth> me neither 07:43:46 <andythenorth> so our imagination won't be limited by reality :P 07:43:51 <LordAro> :D 07:43:52 <nielsm> you can get some basic statistics on the game, and send/receive small json(-ish?) datasets to the running GS 07:44:01 <nielsm> and do rcon 07:44:09 <nielsm> from what I've gathered 07:44:22 <nielsm> but yes "what can adminport do?" is one of those things where the documentation is terrible 07:44:39 *** keoz has joined #openttd 07:44:55 <nielsm> the docs on the wiki basically says "you can send packets to the admin port!" 07:45:04 <nielsm> "and get packets in return!!" 07:45:51 <andythenorth> so in addition to concerns about squirrel execution time, we could also add network latency :D 07:45:56 <andythenorth> how exciting! 07:46:32 <andythenorth> there is something really appealing about having the game controlled by an external process / server 07:46:37 <andythenorth> it's kind of mad 07:47:01 <nielsm> libopenttd that contains the full simulation engine 07:47:14 <nielsm> so you can build an AI that connects as a player 07:47:21 <nielsm> or a GS that connects as admin 07:47:27 <nielsm> and write it in whatever you want 07:48:03 <nielsm> and allow the adminport to accept arbitrary game command packets, as long as they can be executed as deity 07:49:49 <LordAro> yeah, but with no names or anything 07:49:53 <LordAro> just use the enum numbers :p 07:51:23 <andythenorth> quite quite mad 08:07:14 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 08:22:13 *** Progman has joined #openttd 08:24:41 *** keoz has quit IRC 08:31:10 <FLHerne> LordAro: The benefit of multiple GSs in-game is to allow combining GSs that do orthogonal things 08:31:36 <FLHerne> (and thus allow GSs that do something interesting but limited in scope) 08:32:22 <FLHerne> Right now you can't use a goal script and also a script that builds roads between towns 08:32:44 <FLHerne> So someone made an AI that builds roads between towns instead, but then it runs out of money and people want it to cheat... 08:33:21 <FLHerne> I never really understand the objection 08:33:48 <FLHerne> If it's "players will combine things that conflict horribly and break the game"...we have grfs 08:34:22 <FLHerne> They can already do that 08:34:37 <FLHerne> They can break the GS, too 08:36:48 <andythenorth> it's nice to let different programmes write over the same memory? :) 08:39:41 <nielsm> well not strictly like that, but yeah multiple programs pulling the same objects in different directions 08:39:47 <nielsm> without any chance of cooperations 08:39:53 <nielsm> -s 08:41:17 <andythenorth> but it's 'probably fine' right? 08:42:15 <LordAro> personally i think we should work to limit the ways players can break the game 08:49:26 <andythenorth> probably correct 08:49:32 <andythenorth> where's the sense of adventure though? :) 08:49:34 *** Samu has joined #openttd 08:49:49 <andythenorth> newgrfs used to have to collaborate about vehicle IDs and crap 08:51:06 <Samu> hi 09:20:01 <andythenorth> I write variable names with very poor signal to noise ratio 09:20:08 <andythenorth> spritelayer_cargos_intermodal_container_cars 09:20:09 <andythenorth> spritelayer_cargos_vehicle_transporter_cars 09:20:20 <andythenorth> and if I don't, I get confused about what things are 09:20:21 <andythenorth> weird 09:20:42 <andythenorth> the ratio of information to noise there is probably 1:1 or less 09:25:38 * dP just found a class in my old code with methods kv, ks, kd, kl, bd, ed and el xD 09:27:35 <andythenorth> ha 09:27:58 <andythenorth> I don't think everyone reads the way I read 09:28:06 <andythenorth> my brain mostly parses the shape of the word 09:28:14 <andythenorth> I don't need to read the words usually 09:28:20 <LordAro> i don't think that's uncommon 09:28:35 <andythenorth> I have friends who definitely don't work that way 09:28:47 <andythenorth> it's one of the reasons that block caps isn't used on, .e.g road signs though 09:29:04 <LordAro> probably quite a high correlation with those that can "speed read" 09:29:07 <andythenorth> even though in pure legibility tests, some people do better with block caps letters 09:30:30 <dP> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zZjRm3jzs0w/TyBCL1LQfFI/AAAAAAAACXk/2sJ1lslDozA/s400/Extreme%2BConfusion%2BReading%2BOptical%2BIllusion.jpg 09:30:44 <andythenorth> I can almost scan read that 09:31:12 <andythenorth> that's nearly as fast as reading it not scrambled 09:31:20 * andythenorth saves that link:) 09:32:32 <dP> it's so meme it can be googled with just "can read" 09:33:14 <FLHerne> Some student emailed me a while ago to say he'd found a bug in my code, I'd written `wibbledmean(ltsum)` instead of `wibbledmean(ttsum)` 09:33:32 <FLHerne> I had to reply and say I had no idea what I was thinking when I wrote any of that, sorry :-( 09:34:00 <FLHerne> tbf, I was a teenager and even more clueless than now 09:36:57 <FLHerne> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/1463112 09:37:38 <FLHerne> #1463112 Cat sitting on keyboard crashes lightdm -> marked as duplicate of 1538615: Cat causes login screen to hang. 09:38:02 <FLHerne> Cats are great fuzz testers 09:54:53 *** gooodger is now known as goodger 09:57:52 *** goodger has quit IRC 10:00:51 *** goodger has joined #openttd 10:05:04 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 10:06:05 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 10:11:47 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 10:11:50 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 10:14:11 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 10:20:59 *** goodger has quit IRC 10:21:02 *** goodger has joined #openttd 10:33:36 <andythenorth> hmm 10:33:39 <andythenorth> me and python 10:33:52 <andythenorth> I am able to call modules that I haven't explicitly imported 10:33:55 <andythenorth> this is 'interesting' 10:42:08 <andythenorth> if I import a submodule, do I get the module in the namespace as a side effect? 10:42:10 * andythenorth assumes so 10:47:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8228: Fix: Thread unsafe use of NetworkAddress::GetAddressAsString https://git.io/JfFcC 10:49:41 *** keoz has joined #openttd 10:51:36 * andythenorth leaves the python thing alone, it works, just don't like 'works by accident' :D 10:56:49 * andythenorth hopes this fixes cmake mac build locally https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/pull/7331 11:10:26 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 11:28:30 *** nielsm has quit IRC 11:33:54 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 11:34:07 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 11:44:13 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 11:44:26 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 11:49:44 *** arikover has joined #openttd 12:18:20 *** Laedek_ has quit IRC 13:28:25 <andythenorth> the drama in this title is real https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/hcjkns/pathfinding_and_athlon_processors_do_not_mix/ 13:42:04 *** Progman has quit IRC 13:43:11 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 13:47:53 *** supermop_Home has joined #openttd 14:16:46 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 14:18:48 *** gelignite_ has joined #openttd 14:22:47 <dP> hm, "openttd train is lost" 25300 results on google, "openttd ship is lost" - 738000 xD 14:26:05 *** gelignite has quit IRC 14:42:22 <b_jonas> heh 14:50:23 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 14:55:02 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 14:55:23 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 15:19:31 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd 15:26:49 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC 15:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, ships do get lost much easier than trains 15:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and that is despite the fact that there are usually more trains 15:36:32 *** Progman has joined #openttd 15:41:47 <frosch123> yeah, players should care more about their ships 15:42:10 <Wolf01> Buoys, buoys everywhere 15:42:45 <frosch123> losing a ship is like losing 1.8*10^9 €, and noone knows where they are 15:43:04 <Wolf01> Just shut down the transponder 15:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that's MH370, that's a plane... :p 15:52:54 *** Borg has joined #openttd 16:16:57 <FLHerne> I bought 10 onion bagels for 78 pence :D 16:17:42 <FLHerne> Shutting down the transponder doesn't work anymore, they're visible from even civilian satellites 16:18:33 <FLHerne> There are community projects to identify and track boats that violate fishing restrictions and so forth 16:19:52 <Wolf01> <FLHerne> Shutting down the transponder doesn't work anymore, they're visible from even civilian satellites <- good luck finding a particular ship in the ocean 16:20:26 <FLHerne> Planet Labs etc. have 5m-resolution coverage multiple times a day now 16:20:58 <FLHerne> You never have to find a particular ship from nowhere, you find it within a few hours' sailing of where it was last time 16:21:28 <FLHerne> And the vast majority of ships do have transponders 16:22:58 <FLHerne> So the one you're looking for is something that image-recognition thinks is probably a ship, but doesn't correspond to any known ships 16:23:36 <FLHerne> And a top-down view of empty ocean is pretty favourable on the false-positives front 16:24:00 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 opened issue #8232: "Huge screenshot" warning incorrect for heightmap / minimap screenshots https://git.io/JfNuu 16:24:19 <FLHerne> Not many things in the ocean look much like a ship, except maybe some islands, but they don't move so you can just flag them once 16:24:51 <frosch123> what about all that plastic junk? 16:26:10 <FLHerne> Those don't really look like a ship at all? 16:35:35 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 16:55:00 *** Flygon has quit IRC 17:07:18 *** Lejving__ has quit IRC 17:20:34 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:20:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 18:24:22 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 18:33:12 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 18:40:35 *** Gadg8eer has quit IRC 18:41:21 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 19:11:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 updated pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar https://git.io/Jfb1Q 19:12:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8231: Fix #8230: Resolve ".." when opening files in .tar https://git.io/JfNwv 19:23:52 <frosch123> isn't that a security issue? 19:25:32 <frosch123> ah, it cannot leave the tar 19:27:04 <frosch123> or can it? 19:31:44 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] aruscher commented on issue #8221: No error message subtitle for if no bridge types available for target length < max bridge length https://git.io/JfQrI 19:39:16 <andythenorth> hmmm 19:39:21 <andythenorth> vehicle transporters 19:39:28 <andythenorth> need randomised trucks / cars 19:39:34 <andythenorth> and need to change by game date 19:43:39 <frosch123> use recolouring 19:44:12 <frosch123> not sure how many pixels are affected by game date 19:44:20 <frosch123> a car is still pretty much a car 19:44:44 <frosch123> unless you want a horse cart transporter 19:45:27 <glx> frosch123: I made sure it can't 19:45:57 <frosch123> glx: nice :) 19:46:04 <frosch123> quite a lot of magic in that function 19:57:53 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 20:16:59 <Speeder_> the opengfx+ devs have an irc somewhere? 20:17:03 <Speeder_> or they hang out here? 20:18:19 <frosch123> there has been no activity in probably 5 years 20:18:42 <LordAro> @topic get 3 20:18:42 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask 20:28:24 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 20:50:13 *** lastmikoi_ has joined #openttd 20:51:00 *** lastmikoi has quit IRC 20:51:00 *** lastmikoi_ is now known as lastmikoi 21:25:42 *** Borg has quit IRC 21:39:39 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 21:40:05 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 21:41:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 21:53:46 *** nielsm has quit IRC 22:02:07 <Speeder_> anyone know what is the industry newgrf easiest to modify to work with nml5 features? 22:02:18 <Speeder_> (like specific inputs having specific outputs) 22:08:56 *** Samu has quit IRC 22:11:54 <andythenorth> I doubt there are any yet 22:22:47 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:25:01 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 22:26:13 <Speeder_> a 22:28:17 *** urdh has quit IRC 22:33:41 *** keoz has quit IRC 22:38:46 *** gelignite_ has quit IRC 22:48:19 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 22:54:24 *** Boingo has quit IRC 22:54:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8233: Fix 63ccb36e: Incorrect string type for OrderBackup::name save/load https://git.io/JfN1i 22:55:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8233: Fix 63ccb36e: Incorrect string type for OrderBackup::name save/load https://git.io/JfN1X 22:56:14 *** Boingo has joined #openttd 23:06:25 *** Boingo has quit IRC 23:10:57 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 23:29:22 *** consolidated has joined #openttd