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00:23:29 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 00:41:59 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 00:51:12 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 00:51:12 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 00:58:05 *** tokai has quit IRC 01:55:40 *** Tirili has quit IRC 02:18:29 <dale> Hi! I'm running the latest World Airliners Set from the forums, but I strongly suspect the early game Lockheed Constellation has a running cost off by ~10x. If I want to fix this in a running single player game, what are the chances I can recompile the GRF with my tiny change and just swap the file out behind OpenTTD's back without ruining everything? 02:29:36 *** thelonelyellipsis[m] has joined #openttd 02:32:03 <dale> Ah, bless the developer(s), looks like they used a spreadsheet to figure all the cost values, and they checked the spreadsheet in. Looks like the Constellation had its cost and running cost factors flipped. 02:40:55 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 02:41:24 *** Tirili has joined #openttd 03:04:14 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 03:10:41 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 03:16:25 *** Tirili has quit IRC 03:17:20 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:22:56 *** glx has quit IRC 03:48:43 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 03:52:05 *** debdog has quit IRC 05:09:55 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 05:13:07 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 05:38:24 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 05:55:30 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 05:55:44 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 06:28:47 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 06:32:53 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 06:42:30 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:27:02 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 07:27:11 *** Strom has quit IRC 07:28:48 *** Strom has joined #openttd 07:52:31 *** tokai has joined #openttd 07:52:31 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 07:59:35 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 08:05:39 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 08:24:53 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:38:53 <andythenorth> yo 08:41:18 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 09:23:18 *** sla_ro|master2 has joined #openttd 09:27:22 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 09:42:28 *** Smedles_ has quit IRC 09:42:35 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 10:54:11 <TrueBrain> right, lets make some noise in this channel 10:54:12 <TrueBrain> not because I want to 10:54:16 <TrueBrain> but because nobody else is :P 10:56:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #106: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSTjn 10:56:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] TrueBrain updated pull request #33: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSTjF 10:57:08 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #69: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkel 10:59:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #66: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkvv 10:59:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain updated pull request #64: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkJg 11:01:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain updated pull request #81: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkUJ 11:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause> späm! :) 11:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i might have caught a cold... 11:06:06 <TrueBrain> -the- cold? 11:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so 11:06:20 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #55: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkUQ 11:06:22 <TrueBrain> good :) 11:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i read, a runny nose isn't a symptom of that one 11:06:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkTL 11:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> thing i wonder about the james webb space telescope: we've spent like 30 years planning this 10 year mission. do we have two more of those in the pipeline already? 11:09:40 <TrueBrain> its like with KSP .. you build one, see if it goes where you want it to go 11:09:42 <TrueBrain> build the next 11:09:48 <TrueBrain> and ofc, there is always a delay in building 11:10:00 <TrueBrain> you tell your friends in the multiplayer session: just 20 more minutes to build this rocket 11:10:02 <TrueBrain> and it never is 20 11:10:16 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain updated pull request #61: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkv9 11:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never played KSP multiplayer :) 11:10:40 <TrueBrain> not a bad thing :P 11:10:42 <TrueBrain> it is fun, but frustrated 11:10:52 <TrueBrain> you both run in your own time, and you can "catch up" with the other person 11:11:04 <TrueBrain> basically .. if you have "that friend" that is always speeding up time 11:11:07 <TrueBrain> you are always catching up 11:11:25 <Eddi|zuHause> as a rule of thumb: i'm always the slowest player :) 11:11:26 <TrueBrain> I understand the mechanism, but it is a bit frustration to play with honestly 11:11:54 <Eddi|zuHause> whenever people are waiting for the last person to end the turn, that's usually me. 11:12:19 <TrueBrain> yeah .. don't play KSP multiplayer in that case, you will hate it 11:12:22 <TrueBrain> your friends will love it 11:12:26 <TrueBrain> as they don't have to wait for you 11:18:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #106: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSTjn 11:27:37 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #66: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkvv 11:27:39 <TrueBrain> okay ... I think it now all works ... I hope :P 11:27:48 <TrueBrain> there is an annoying upgrade in there, so .. lets try on staging :D 11:28:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] TrueBrain merged pull request #33: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSTjF 11:28:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain merged pull request #69: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkel 11:28:53 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain merged pull request #64: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkJg 11:29:07 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain merged pull request #81: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkUJ 11:31:58 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #55: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkUQ 11:32:11 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 11:32:41 *** sla_ro|master2 has quit IRC 11:32:57 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain merged pull request #61: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkv9 11:33:11 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain merged pull request #42: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkTL 11:33:28 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain merged pull request #106: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSTjn 11:33:42 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #66: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January https://git.io/JSkvv 11:43:54 <TrueBrain> right, seems all to be functional 11:43:56 <TrueBrain> TO PRODUCTION! 11:44:07 *** D-HUND is now known as debdog 11:46:27 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.3.2 https://git.io/JSVNk 11:46:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.1.4 https://git.io/JSVNL 11:46:49 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.4.5 https://git.io/JSVNt 11:47:03 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.2.1 https://git.io/JSVNq 11:47:15 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.5.4 https://git.io/JSVNY 11:47:24 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.2.10 https://git.io/JSVNO 11:47:31 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.3.3 https://git.io/JSVN3 11:47:38 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain created new tag: 2.1.4 https://git.io/JSVNZ 11:48:01 <TrueBrain> right, that should be all the spam there is :) 11:48:06 <TrueBrain> till next month! 11:50:52 *** DorpsGek has quit IRC 11:51:16 *** DorpsGek has joined #openttd 11:51:16 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DorpsGek 11:59:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9779: Backport master into release/12 https://git.io/JSVNS 11:59:06 <TrueBrain> specially for you LordAro ^^ 12:00:12 <TrueBrain> finally had a good test-case for a PR that was merged with rebasing .. was a bug in my script, but otherwise worked fine :) 12:00:47 <TrueBrain> updated gist :) 12:21:08 <LordAro> :) 12:50:51 *** J0anJosep has joined #openttd 13:00:01 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 13:01:12 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 13:09:07 *** supermop_Home has quit IRC 13:14:56 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 13:41:12 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: search for WFIRST and Luvoir 13:41:44 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 13:42:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "The Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope, formerly known as WFIRST, is an upcoming space telescope [...]" 13:45:36 <Rubidium> yeah, you were looking for those... right? 13:45:50 <Rubidium> planned for respectively 2027 and 2039 13:46:24 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 13:47:08 <LordAro> NGRST 13:47:22 <LordAro> doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it? 13:47:52 <LordAro> neither that or JWST are quite as simple as "Hubble"/HST 13:48:27 <Rubidium> well, JWST is commonly known a Webb though 13:48:45 <LordAro> mostly, yeah 13:49:24 <LordAro> still not clear why they needed the "James" 13:49:47 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 13:49:49 <LordAro> it's not Edwin Hubble Space Telescope, after all 13:51:19 <Rubidium> each iteration gets one name more. Hubble, James Webb, Nancy Grace Roman... so the one after that will probably be named after some NASA administrator with four names ;) 13:52:12 <LordAro> its full name is already "Large Ultraviolet Optical Infrared Surveyor" :p 13:53:02 <Rubidium> it's not like Wide-Field Infrared Survey Telescope got renamed... 13:53:10 <LordAro> i do love the story behind WFIRST though - NRO just comes along and gives NASA 2 hubble-spec telescopes that they had lying around in a warehouse 13:53:32 <LordAro> "these are too out of date for us, you have them" 14:07:29 <FLHerne> LordAro: HST was already taken though :p 14:19:27 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 14:46:10 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 14:46:45 *** supermop_Home_ has joined #openttd 14:46:51 <supermop_Home_> good morning 14:46:51 <TrueBrain> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927573586963738685/unknown.png <- w00p, I can prerender ground sprites correctly :D 14:47:02 <TrueBrain> it is surprisingly hard to convert this into HTML in a smart way :) 14:47:02 <supermop_Home_> yay 15:00:34 <supermop_Home_> i drew some more little houses 15:00:38 *** glx has joined #openttd 15:00:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 15:13:30 <supermop_Home_> how do i recolor in a replace block? 15:13:41 <supermop_Home_> i have this so far: 15:13:47 <supermop_Home_> replace replace_house_B_03 (4610, "images/Base_House_B_03.png") { // Replace tropic building 4610 15:13:47 <supermop_Home_> tmpl_hale() 15:13:47 <supermop_Home_> } 15:14:17 <supermop_Home_> do i just put something in after the template? 15:16:31 <glx> I don't think you can recolor in a replace block, only replace a sprite or a recolor sprite 15:18:46 <supermop_Home_> ok 15:19:27 <glx> replacing is really basic, it "overwrites" and existing sprite and nothing more 15:19:37 <glx> s/and/an/ 15:19:51 <supermop_Home_> this page mentions putting in recolor sprites but i guess that means to replace existing recolor sprites?: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Replace_TTD_sprites 15:20:08 <glx> yes 15:20:44 <glx> it's based on https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ActionA 15:20:45 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 15:21:00 <supermop_Home_> i drew all the 'trim' on these houses as CC blue, for re-use as new houses rather than baseset ones, and wanted to recolor it all to brown for the base houses 15:21:15 <supermop_Home_> but i can just bake that in in photoshop for now 15:21:23 <supermop_Home_> on a overlay layer 15:22:21 <supermop_Home_> whoever drew the ogfx tropic apartment buildings put a ton of CC blue on there that doesn't get uses 15:25:03 <TrueBrain> those negative offsets for sprites are so annoying to deal with :P 15:25:33 <TrueBrain> (and no, making them positive doesn't help .. the issue is that you need to know the total height of a tilesprite before you can properly random it in HTML :P) 15:26:38 <glx> it's random if you don't know the height ;) 15:28:46 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 15:28:55 <glx> offsets themselves are not that hard, except you have to translate them from virtual 3D coords to screen 2D coords 15:29:08 <glx> and that part is annoying 15:29:09 <TrueBrain> speak for yourself :P 15:29:27 <TrueBrain> but as I said, the main issue for me is the total height of a tilesprite 15:29:29 <TrueBrain> which is not as trivial as I would like 15:29:50 <glx> yeah and bounding box can lie too 15:30:04 <TrueBrain> my bounding boxes are fixed 15:30:07 <TrueBrain> so those are not an issue ;) 15:30:57 <TrueBrain> it mostly is silly HTML 15:31:07 <TrueBrain> like, it is really difficult to align an element on the bottom of something 15:32:07 <glx> can't use same way as openttd ? 15:33:31 <glx> it's like a pseudo viewport 15:33:50 <TrueBrain> creating a viewport was easy, see screenshot earlier :) 15:36:28 <TrueBrain> and OpenTTD never calculates the height of a tilesprite 15:36:37 <TrueBrain> it just draws the sprites in the spriteset 15:36:47 <TrueBrain> it really really doesn't care about anything "height" related :) 15:37:21 <TrueBrain> and sadly, the height of a tilesprite is not max(heights) or anything like that .. it is pretty tricky to calculate it 15:37:32 <TrueBrain> especially as FIRS is full of composites :P 15:39:37 <glx> yeah openttd just crops if it's too high 15:39:51 <TrueBrain> it just blitters what-ever you feed itr 15:40:02 <TrueBrain> it really really doesn't care what the total height is of sprites on a certain tile :) 15:40:51 <glx> your main issue is northern tile, it's the one you want to align with what is above 15:41:15 <TrueBrain> huh? Do you have a webcam installed? :) 15:41:20 <TrueBrain> I am scared now :P 15:41:46 <glx> well it's logical ;) 15:42:16 <TrueBrain> I have no clue why you talk about a "northern tile" honestly :) 15:42:31 <TrueBrain> I am not battling rendering a viewport, as clearly I can (see earlier link) :) That really isn't an issue 15:42:42 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 15:42:44 <glx> northern in openttd world, ie the top most one 15:43:36 <TrueBrain> you seem to be confused with what I am actually trying to solve 15:43:37 <glx> but neighbours can be higher than it while being drawn lower 15:43:42 <TrueBrain> vs your interpretation of it :) 15:43:59 <TrueBrain> again, and I cannot stress this enough: I am NOT battling viewport issues, nor multi-tile something :) 15:45:07 <glx> yes I understand that, I think the issue is the viewport alignment itself relative to other elements of the page 15:46:01 <TrueBrain> no 15:46:42 <TrueBrain> FIRS tricks still amuse me greatly: 15:46:42 <TrueBrain> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927588721174413332/unknown.png 15:47:01 <TrueBrain> every tile has a ground-tile below it, but if they aren't actually visible, they can be the weirdest things :D 15:47:04 <glx> oh a "useless" ground 15:47:57 <glx> default ground, then an always drawn childsprite to cover it 15:48:02 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 15:50:05 <glx> I guess it was easier to do it that way we the templated stuff 15:50:17 <glx> s/we/with/ 15:50:58 <TrueBrain> now where will the water tile be hiding .... 15:53:07 <TrueBrain> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927590351705878609/vnWyCrRPqwYpWBhLilWSqiI9WBluB3tiqwEgJi5gMuACdCD17w3djm1hqgF02lWo8kdsdiAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC.png 15:53:07 <TrueBrain> hiddennnnn 15:54:53 <TrueBrain> glx: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927590821149163630/unknown.png <- this is what I am trying to solve 15:54:57 <TrueBrain> see the mess on the right side 15:54:58 <TrueBrain> it is terrible 15:55:19 <glx> oh yeah the individual tiles 15:55:31 <TrueBrain> not like I mentioned that 5 times :P :P 15:56:11 <TrueBrain> theight = max(height + top, cheight + ctop) + max(-top, -ctop) 15:56:14 <TrueBrain> ugh 15:56:35 <glx> yeah you can't guess the height without virtually drawing sprites 15:56:52 <TrueBrain> well, no drawing involved 15:56:53 <TrueBrain> just a lot of math 15:57:10 <glx> yes virtual drawing is math 15:57:14 <TrueBrain> and iterating the whole chain in an annoying way 15:57:19 <TrueBrain> no, no drawing :) 15:57:22 <TrueBrain> just need to know the meta-data 15:59:04 <TrueBrain> luckily enough I don't care about the actual image itself 15:59:04 <TrueBrain> that makes it slightly easier 15:59:16 <glx> at least I hope FIRS doesn't use hide flag 16:00:08 <glx> because composite tiles may have optional layers 16:00:47 <glx> and dynamic position 16:01:22 <TrueBrain> lovely, groundtile 2022 is defined in coalmine.png, but it used all over the place 16:01:22 <TrueBrain> lol 16:01:51 <glx> oh I think it's also use for some stations 16:02:36 <TrueBrain> I have a hard time seeing why it is different from dirt 16:02:52 <TrueBrain> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927589530821881896/ni8vfszYU1gAAAABJRU5ErkJggg.png 16:02:53 <TrueBrain> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/337701432230805505/927592746162724914/1UIv4FG8jy3ym2Bo8AAAAASUVORK5CYII.png 16:02:59 <glx> there are vehicle traces on it I think 16:03:17 <TrueBrain> maybe it is OpenGFX 16:03:36 <supermop_Home_> i think the ogfx one is more plain 16:04:58 <glx> yup cowpen stations uses 2022 and I can see vehicle traces with TTD original graphics 16:09:58 <TrueBrain> I really need to run auto-crop over images 16:10:03 <TrueBrain> there are some pretty weird ones in there :D 16:11:45 <glx> https://imgur.com/RmlYgcR <-- that's 2022 for me 16:12:31 <TrueBrain> clearly the person drawing OpenGFX was like: NAH! 16:12:32 <TrueBrain> :D 16:12:57 <glx> and andy drawings are all based on original 16:13:22 <TrueBrain> I think NML has no shortcut to that image even :P 16:13:26 <supermop_Home_> TrueBrain looking at the ogfx sprite sheet to replace tropic buildings... that certainly seems to be the case 16:13:56 <TrueBrain> NML indeed doesn't have a shorthand for it 16:14:06 <TrueBrain> so I guess it is rather FIRS specific, but it is okay .. I can add one more sprite :P 16:14:50 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 16:15:21 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 16:15:33 <TrueBrain> right ... so now "only" the tile editor itself 16:15:33 <TrueBrain> hmm 16:15:42 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 16:22:19 <TrueBrain> something for tomorrow :D Getting there ... at least I can now see the light at the end of the tunnel :P 16:22:26 <TrueBrain> just need to find a clean way to show the different layers of a tile 16:22:34 <TrueBrain> without things jumping around like a mofo :P 17:03:15 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:17:05 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 17:36:59 <TrueBrain> owh, look at that, a frosch123 ! 17:37:07 <TrueBrain> welcome to 2022 :) 17:38:02 <frosch123> hoi 17:38:18 <frosch123> did someone tell andy? it's 2022 17:38:26 <TrueBrain> pretty sure he missed it 17:38:54 <andythenorth> it's what now? 17:39:34 <frosch123> log4j-year is over, it's exchange-year now 17:39:54 <TrueBrain> haha, yeah, stupid bug 17:39:55 <andythenorth> are some people still dealing with the printer thing? 17:40:00 <TrueBrain> that made me laugh really hard 17:41:19 <andythenorth> well tomorrow I can return to the land of 'what is broken today?' 17:41:32 <andythenorth> my glamorous professional career :P 17:41:58 *** Flygon has quit IRC 17:42:21 <TrueBrain> I delayed that with a few more days .. I smart, you silly! 17:50:50 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 17:58:33 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 18:12:24 <glx> oh yeah it's a stupid bug indeed 18:13:13 <Rubidium> just set your clock for 2043 ;) 18:26:35 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 18:36:02 <andythenorth> 256 cargos when? :P 18:36:04 <andythenorth> oof 18:38:29 <Rubidium> when there's a 256 bit integral type in C++? 18:38:43 <nielsm> you need a 256 bit CPU for that 18:39:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: industries also have cargo subtypes :p 18:39:31 <michi_cc> std::bitset? 18:40:03 <michi_cc> Can now even easily be used for commands with some glue code :) 18:40:11 <frosch123> std::bitset is unfortunately not compatible with string parameter {CARGO_LIST}, especially when used by GS 18:40:46 <frosch123> also, don't feed andy's madness :) 18:41:14 <andythenorth> we need the full chain for producing nuclear fuel 18:41:21 <andythenorth> but that occupies all 64 cargo slots 18:41:39 *** Etua has joined #openttd 18:41:58 <frosch123> how many slots do solar panels need? 18:42:38 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 18:44:28 <andythenorth> at least 1 18:45:01 <andythenorth> it's funny that Steeltown only needs 48 cargos 18:45:59 <frosch123> you could split the chain into parts and connect them via ports. players have to run multiple games in parallel with economies Chemistry1, Chemistry2, Nuclear, ... :p 18:46:20 <andythenorth> shard the map? 18:46:31 <andythenorth> I did a test chemicals economy 18:46:33 <frosch123> pretty sure you can find more elements to add as alloys to steel 18:46:38 <andythenorth> it was reasonably complete with 50 cargos 18:46:58 <andythenorth> Alcohol, Aluminium, Ammonia, Ammonium Nitrate, Chlorine, Cleaning Agents, Copper, Electrical Parts, Engineering Supplies, Ethylene, Explosives, Farm Supplies, Fish, Food, Food Additives, Furniture, Glass, Grain, Hydrochloric Acid, Limestone, Livestock, Lye, Mail, Methanol, Milk, Naphtha, Oil, Packaging, Paints & Coatings, Passengers, Petroleum Fuels, Phosphate, Phosphoric Acid, Plant Fibres, Plastics, Potash, 18:46:58 <andythenorth> Propylene, Rubber, Salt, Sand, Soda Ash, Steel, Sulphur, Sulphuric Acid, Textiles, Timber, Tinplate, Urea, Vehicles 18:47:05 <andythenorth> yes I did just paste that :P 18:47:50 <andythenorth> it's only a 'complete' economy that's hard to fit into 64 18:48:11 <andythenorth> if things are grouped, e.g. 'food', 'chemicals' etc it can be done in 32 cargos 18:48:20 <andythenorth> if they're de-grouped, it needs about 100 cargos 18:48:27 <andythenorth> weird scaling issue 18:48:52 <supermop_Home_> yellow rock -> factory -> power plant 18:48:57 <supermop_Home_> that's all you need 18:49:16 <andythenorth> TBH I am just going to have a port-type industry 'nuclear facility' :) 18:49:24 <supermop_Home_> yellow rock, heavy pellet, warm junk 18:49:25 <andythenorth> produces fuel rods, accepts nuclear waste 18:49:28 <supermop_Home_> 3 cargoes 18:49:42 <andythenorth> should I do munitions or not? 18:49:52 <supermop_Home_> mine produces yellow rock and warm junk 18:50:10 <Rubidium> accepts star stuff => produces star stuff 18:50:13 <supermop_Home_> factory accepts yellow rock and produces heavy pellet and warm junk 18:50:25 <andythenorth> I am making a model train economy for Wales and SW England, which irl features munitions :P 18:50:36 <andythenorth> including some really unpleasant ones 18:50:37 <andythenorth> but eh 18:50:45 <supermop_Home_> power plant accepts heavy pellet and produces warm junk 18:50:52 <supermop_Home_> no where accepts warm junk 18:50:55 <andythenorth> slug pellet 18:51:10 <andythenorth> apply to YETI 18:52:05 <supermop_Home_> GS to decrease town rating wherever you serve any of those industry types 18:52:14 <andythenorth> pollution index :P 18:52:39 <andythenorth> hmm apples and pears are 'pome fruits' group 18:52:41 <andythenorth> who knew? 18:52:52 <andythenorth> does 'orchard fruit' work better for that? 18:52:53 <supermop_Home_> really need separate cargoes 18:52:57 * andythenorth doing cider mill inputs 18:53:02 <supermop_Home_> and separate cider and perry 18:53:06 <andythenorth> well 18:53:13 <andythenorth> when we have 4096 cargos, we can do that 18:53:27 <supermop_Home_> brandy? 18:54:01 <andythenorth> peach brandy 18:54:23 <nielsm> GS occasionally culls town buildings near active X industries and instead place a "derelict ruin" map object that can't be removed by players or towns 18:54:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: oh yeah, FIRS needs an economy with apples, pears and apple-pears 18:54:35 <Rubidium> that probably needs bigger screens too. Someone might have half of the cargos in the cargo list 18:54:36 <andythenorth> are they hybrid grafts? 18:54:41 <supermop_Home_> is kirsch technically a brandy as it comes from the wine of a stonefruit? 18:54:51 <andythenorth> alcohol economy 18:55:02 <andythenorth> Buckfast Tonic Wine 18:55:28 <supermop_Home_> agaves 18:55:31 <andythenorth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckfast_Tonic_Wine#Antisocial_image 18:55:40 <frosch123> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrus_pyrifolia <- i had an argument about those with someone who did not like pears, but only pears that tasted like apples 18:55:53 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 18:55:58 <supermop_Home_> separate out sotol tequilla and mezcal 18:56:16 <supermop_Home_> frosch123 i eat those all the time 18:56:31 <supermop_Home_> they sell them on my block on the sidewalk 18:56:42 <supermop_Home_> they are good in salads 18:56:58 <glx> looks like a pear to me (even if it's apple shaped) 18:57:00 <frosch123> i prefer juicy pears 18:57:20 <frosch123> glx: they call it "pear", but it has taste and consistency of an apple 18:57:24 <supermop_Home_> glx they are quite large 18:57:56 <supermop_Home_> frosch123 it tastes more pear like to me, but not like a European pear 18:58:13 <supermop_Home_> the texture is more pear like 18:59:14 <frosch123> i only had one, maybe it was not ripe enough. but it was way too solid for a pear 18:59:23 <supermop_Home_> benefit of living in Chinatown is 1) lots of fresh fruit for sale on every block, and 2) different fruits than you see at the grocery store 18:59:27 <andythenorth> many kinds of fruit 18:59:31 *** m811 has quit IRC 18:59:40 *** moll has joined #openttd 18:59:40 <andythenorth> I did try splitting up food, but nowhere near enough cargos :P 18:59:49 <supermop_Home_> there are other food related benefits as well 19:00:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: do vehicle-set authors a favour, just add "red fruit", "yellow fruit", "green fruit" :p 19:00:27 <andythenorth> yes 19:00:34 <andythenorth> these are the important classifications 19:00:44 <frosch123> also works for bell peppers 19:00:46 <supermop_Home_> frosch123 a mixed jumble of colors looks better on the sprite tho 19:01:28 <supermop_Home_> too bad the palette is so lacking in orange shades 19:02:46 <andythenorth> dither (alternate red and yellow) 19:05:10 <supermop_Home_> when an orange is 1 px dithering is hard 19:05:29 <supermop_Home_> and that 1px orange is at least as big as a basketball 19:05:59 <supermop_Home_> 8x zoom to draw fruit cargo 19:07:33 <andythenorth> 32bpp 19:07:38 <andythenorth> all the oranges you want 19:09:01 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> I did try splitting up food, but nowhere near enough cargos :P <- add different types of grain 19:09:25 <andythenorth> barley, maize, wheat, oats 19:10:36 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 19:11:15 <supermop_Home_> millet? rice? sorghum, rye, 19:12:09 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 19:12:40 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 19:13:19 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 19:14:48 <frosch123> economy: gluten-free 19:16:55 <andythenorth> gluten free food contains a lot of things 19:17:04 <andythenorth> the substitutes for wheat flour are wide ranging 19:17:26 <andythenorth> also they have to put in a lot of fat and sweeteners to make it taste good 19:17:59 <andythenorth> it would need more than 64 cargos just for GF bread :P 19:20:44 <frosch123> i checked the package, my gluten-free flour contains 6 incredients 19:20:57 <frosch123> one of them is non-essential 19:21:03 <andythenorth> is it grape juice? 19:23:56 <frosch123> corn starch, corn flour, rice flour, lentil flour, modified cassava starch, tara-vine-seed-flour 19:24:50 <supermop_Home_> how many root crops cargoes andy? 19:30:50 <andythenorth> 28 19:34:28 <andythenorth> GF flour here is rice, potato, tapioca, carob, sugar beet, xantham gum 19:34:43 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ root crops including mangel-wurzel, or excluding? 19:37:51 *** Kitrana has joined #openttd 19:40:06 <Gustavo6046> The starting date thing in the timetable is confusing 19:40:15 <Gustavo6046> I always hold Ctrl so my vehicles try to space evenly across the orders 19:40:39 <Gustavo6046> Thing is, sometimes they do wait until the "starting date" or sometime after that, sometimes they do the first order and start right away (and do not show as running late). 19:41:04 *** Kitrana1 has joined #openttd 19:43:46 *** Montana_ has joined #openttd 19:45:40 *** Kitrana2 has quit IRC 19:45:55 *** Kitrana has quit IRC 19:46:33 <supermop_Home_> it depends on where they are in there own order list when you start the schedule 19:47:03 <Gustavo6046> ah 19:47:18 <supermop_Home_> and confusingly, vehicles still in the depot when the timetable starts will be in reverse order 19:47:30 <Gustavo6046> another thing is that I often have a bunch of vehicles running, and I issue a Start date, and they loop to the first order and start running a whole heap of days late.. 19:47:55 <Gustavo6046> Is there a way to "auto start date", so they start once they're all ready to, still with the option to space start dates evenly? 19:48:07 <supermop_Home_> that is - the highest number vehicle gets the earliest start date 19:49:07 <Gustavo6046> ah 19:49:23 <Gustavo6046> that sounds like a not very important technical detail 19:49:26 <Gustavo6046> but confusing, yeah 19:50:22 <andythenorth> timetables don't work 19:50:25 <Gustavo6046> ah :( 19:50:25 <andythenorth> use JGRPP 19:50:28 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth they do 19:50:29 <Gustavo6046> :o 19:50:44 <supermop_Home_> I've use timetables successfully for like a decade 19:50:44 <andythenorth> in JGRPP you just click the button and the result happens 19:50:48 <supermop_Home_> they work fine 19:50:54 <andythenorth> you have to find the right button, there are 2 or 3 19:51:21 <supermop_Home_> you just need to try it a couple times and learn from observing what happens 19:51:30 <Gustavo6046> is JGRPP like a newgrf? 19:51:37 <nielsm> no 19:51:38 <Gustavo6046> or another obscure but super amazing feature like Cargodist? 19:51:44 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=73469 19:51:45 <Gustavo6046> I swear, when I found out about Cargodist I couldn't believe I never knew about it 19:51:52 <Gustavo6046> I fell off the chair... emotionally, not physically! 19:51:52 <nielsm> it's a different version of the game 19:51:55 <Gustavo6046> Oh. 19:52:13 <Gustavo6046> Hm 19:52:25 <Gustavo6046> supermop_Home_, they do be tedious to set up, but I think they're cool 19:52:29 <Gustavo6046> having vehicles space out nicely 19:53:02 <Gustavo6046> huh I'm just repaying my loan until I have enough money (within the loan limit) to buy a 2cc metro train (monorail?) 19:53:19 <supermop_Home_> i'd rather have more people advocating for tweaking time tables to be a bit more intuitive to use that everyone saying 'there are no timetables in the base game, give up and use jgr' 19:53:27 <Gustavo6046> there should be some sort of fee when loaning, or like a slight difference between how much you loan and how much you have to pay back, to discourage this kind of financial dexterity 19:53:38 <Gustavo6046> supermop_Home_, I agree with that. 19:53:47 <supermop_Home_> Gustavo6046 you have to pay interest 19:53:50 <Gustavo6046> Timetables are cool but could be better, and deserve to be 19:53:59 <Gustavo6046> Yeah, the interest is actually encouraging financial dexterity 19:54:13 <Gustavo6046> Loan a lot, do stuff, pay out your loans and keep paying as money comes in, then loan again to do more stuff 19:54:27 <Gustavo6046> Then you don't pay interests unless you're actively building something! 19:54:40 <Gustavo6046> That is, until you're in a comfortable enough balance to pay out and never loan again. 19:55:43 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd 19:55:57 <Gustavo6046> Without interest one simply wouldn't care about paying out, but then again that would make moot the point of being able to loan and pay out, or having creditors in the first place. 19:56:06 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC 19:56:24 <andythenorth> auto-spacing of vehicles is the single most significant advantage of JGRPP 19:57:08 <LordAro> would be really nice to have something that properly works (in an obvious way) in vanilla 19:59:29 <Gustavo6046> andythenorth, yes but so do vanilla timetables 19:59:38 <Gustavo6046> station ratings etc 19:59:54 <Gustavo6046> it's just a bit more painful to pull off, which I don't agree with, but should be fixed rather than simply tiptoed around 20:00:04 <andythenorth> I never got vanilla timetables to work for auto separate 20:00:13 <andythenorth> no matter how many magic hotkey combos I tried 20:00:20 <andythenorth> literally does not work 20:01:21 <Gustavo6046> they work for me 20:01:41 <Gustavo6046> is that for road vehicles? make sure you have multiple parallel stations rather than one single line 20:01:51 <andythenorth> ships 20:01:56 <andythenorth> trams 20:02:00 <andythenorth> I never tried buses 20:02:07 <Gustavo6046> for trams works fine for me 20:02:15 <andythenorth> I've seen a youtube video comparing vanilla, joker and jgrpp 20:02:21 <andythenorth> for separation 20:02:48 <Gustavo6046> if it's not good it should be fixed though 20:02:53 <Gustavo6046> vanilla should be THE example of how to do it 20:03:02 <Gustavo6046> it shouldn't be a pasasble baseline 20:03:43 <Gustavo6046> I'd prioritize polishing it, even little corners like that, and also make a bit more polish on the mobile UI (it's fine and clearly thought went into the touch interface, but it gets cluttered fast) 20:07:55 <_dp_> there is usually more than one opinion on how to do stuff in vanilla :p 20:08:23 <_dp_> also mobile version isn't vanilla, it's a fork maintained by a single person, much like jgrpp 20:10:06 <Gustavo6046> ah 20:11:10 <andythenorth> I don't want to accidentally be a gatekeeper :P 20:11:26 <andythenorth> but as JGRPP exists, it's unlikely to be fixed in vanilla 20:11:36 <andythenorth> JGR was interested to fix it and can make decisions 20:11:47 <andythenorth> vanilla neither of those are true right now today 20:12:06 <andythenorth> * specific to this issue 20:16:13 <Gustavo6046> hmm, okay 20:16:21 <Gustavo6046> I understand your concern 20:16:24 <Gustavo6046> it's, in a way, political :p 20:16:27 <Gustavo6046> I mean, it really is! 20:16:35 <Gustavo6046> Broad sense politics means to manage the concerns of a bunch of people 20:16:56 <andythenorth> more like managing interest :) 20:16:58 <andythenorth> if anything 20:17:03 <andythenorth> managing here is limited :) 20:17:09 <Gustavo6046> Mhm 20:17:15 <michi_cc> It's very likely to get fixed in vanilla (if there's something to fix), but only if somebody turns up to do the work. 20:19:53 <glx> and once anything is in vanilla, we have to maintain it 20:19:55 <Gustavo6046> C++... I dunno. 20:20:04 <Gustavo6046> I'd love to help, but I have a bad history with C++ :p 20:21:13 <andythenorth> glx we do? :o 20:22:15 <Gustavo6046> Why can't I transport my trains via big huge airplane? :p 20:22:33 <Gustavo6046> glx, well, yes, to keep it working together with all of the OTHER moving parts... 20:26:28 <glx> andythenorth: well major bugs, crashes, ... 20:27:06 <andythenorth> oh that :) 20:28:04 <LordAro> i'd quite like there to be an official mobile ui too, but that'd a rather larger amount of work 20:32:00 <frosch123> do you ever play on mobile? 20:32:07 <Gustavo6046> Articulated trams get stuck if a station ends abruptly rather than having a single piece of tramrail to loop around. 20:32:21 <Gustavo6046> Meanwhile, single piece trams just "teleport" to the other rail. 20:32:23 <Gustavo6046> or lane 20:32:26 <Gustavo6046> One or the other, please! 20:32:29 <LordAro> frosch123: no, but i bet there are people that would if it were (more) available 20:32:48 <Gustavo6046> Or justify it, I dunno, maybe just say articulation makes it harder to teleport a tram short distances like you can with short types :p 20:32:53 * Gustavo6046 is not a short type 20:32:58 <frosch123> Gustavo6046: the former also applies also to tram tracks 20:33:06 * Gustavo6046 totally is a short type, though (171cm) 20:33:13 <Gustavo6046> frosch123, hm? 20:33:24 <Gustavo6046> wait, but I *am* talking about trams 20:33:26 <Gustavo6046> am confused 20:33:28 <frosch123> the latter is an exception to avoid deadlocks, if the next tile is not buidable 20:33:50 <frosch123> trams always need a u-turn for reversing 20:34:12 <Gustavo6046> ahh 20:34:32 <Gustavo6046> deadlocks? 20:34:55 <frosch123> imagine building a tram track straight into an industry 20:35:10 <frosch123> when the tram is on the tile, you cannot remove the track, because the tram is on it 20:35:24 <frosch123> but you cannot extend the track either, because the industry is irremovable 20:35:36 <frosch123> so the tram would be stuck forever 20:40:13 <Gustavo6046> true 20:40:25 <Gustavo6046> I have almost had that happen, but it was with city tile. I had to remove it and that made me quite sad. 20:40:30 <Gustavo6046> (and the mayor pretty upset) 20:43:02 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 20:43:03 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 20:44:05 <Gustavo6046> But I see what you mean 20:51:21 <andythenorth> what is the hazardous cargo class intended for? 20:51:28 <andythenorth> should I use it to require a brake van in the train or something? 20:51:34 <andythenorth> restrict speed? 20:53:24 <andythenorth> also NUKE for nuclear fuel? 20:54:20 <frosch123> afaik the hazardous class was invented by people who could edit wikis, but did not do newgrfs 20:55:07 <andythenorth> oic :) 20:55:19 * andythenorth thinks of BAD FEATURES to use it for 20:55:19 <glx> ah like roadmaps 20:55:22 <frosch123> but yeah, add a 200t vehicle, which carries 10t of freight, and is limited to 20 km/h :p 20:56:32 <andythenorth> lol the roadmap is still there? 20:56:37 <andythenorth> I thought we deleted it :) 20:56:56 <andythenorth> I enjoy also that the entire 'development' section is no longer linked :P 20:57:01 <andythenorth> after I spent a few days cleaning it up 20:57:04 <andythenorth> all things die :) 20:57:20 <frosch123> it's linked from the docs folder in the sources 20:57:46 <andythenorth> it is 20:57:50 <frosch123> there is some kind of disagreement there :p some people want dev docs in the repository, others want to translate it 20:57:55 <andythenorth> this is standard 20:58:04 <andythenorth> I've never seen any project which agrees on docs 20:58:25 <frosch123> i just moved all the junk to Archive/ 20:58:32 <frosch123> people still keep on editing 20:59:25 <andythenorth> people seem to people 20:59:47 <andythenorth> hmm maybe I can do this in 64 cargos 21:00:00 <andythenorth> fortunately Wales only produces sheep, 3 kinds of steel, tinplate and petrol 21:00:13 <andythenorth> so I didn't need many cargos for that part of the map 21:00:44 * andythenorth overlooks the historical role of Wales as the richest coal exporting region in the world 21:01:02 <glx> different wool color maybe 21:02:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: count new-south-wales as part of wales? maybe you have coal again then 21:02:31 <andythenorth> coals to newcastle 21:02:34 <andythenorth> newcastle NSW 21:09:59 <frosch123> why is MS not included in FAANG? is the term too old, before MS became relevant again? 21:11:39 <andythenorth> wow Netflix is in there? 21:11:45 <andythenorth> surely that's aging :P 21:12:06 <frosch123> also true, i don't understand how netflix compares to the other 4 21:12:16 <nielsm> have anyone tried this? https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/sizebench/9ndf4n1wg7d6 21:12:46 <frosch123> uff. that brings back work memories... 21:13:17 <frosch123> company has a policy to not share source code between subsidiaries, but still shares pdbs 21:13:35 <frosch123> so someone wrote a pdb->uml tool 21:14:12 <frosch123> generate docs from pdbs :p 21:22:48 <andythenorth> oof 21:23:01 <andythenorth> one day I make FIRS compile move pax, mail and food automatically 21:23:08 * andythenorth keeps having to move them in a list 21:40:00 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:45:40 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 22:01:42 *** nielsm has quit IRC 22:07:24 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 22:15:05 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:21:46 <Gustavo6046> Hmm, the even timetabling does seem to not work very well for ships, which is odd 22:22:38 <Gustavo6046> Curiously it did for my trams 22:22:54 <Gustavo6046> well, not well for my trams, but it did for my other road vehicles, and my trains 22:22:58 <Gustavo6046> and even airplanes I recall 22:23:31 <Gustavo6046> Maybe automatically evening the starting date for ships and trams doesn't work well for some reason? 22:23:35 <Gustavo6046> (I *am* using NewGRFs.) 22:23:56 <Gustavo6046> https://i.imgur.com/OGSVvmz.png 22:23:58 <frosch123> trams can't overtake 22:24:12 <Gustavo6046> The only relevant NewGRFs are 2cc {Cargo,} Trams, and SHARK, respectively. 22:24:13 <frosch123> that may be an issue 22:24:23 <Gustavo6046> Hmm, maybe 22:26:21 <Gustavo6046> Oo, some of my trams certainly are evening out a bit though 22:43:25 *** J0anJosep has quit IRC 22:43:45 <Gustavo6046> It's hard for most types of vehicles to overtake each other - even busses and trucks have difficulty e.g. if they're of the same model. Additionally, without timetable slack, it's nigh impossible for them to slowly "gravitate" towards an evenly spaced schedule if they start clumped up, but timetable slack is also antithetic to efficiency. 22:44:27 <Gustavo6046> Ultimately, spacing out timetables evenly is pleasant when done correctly, but more an art than a science, and it's quite difficult to get just right. Plus, it takes a while to even be noticeable, unless you set a later start date, and even then sometimes they just leave in somewhat of a burst for whatever reason. 22:44:56 <Gustavo6046> This is my thoughts on it. I think it's a cool feature that can actually help, say, with station ratings, or distributing congestion on routes and stations, and one that deserves more love and polish. 22:55:05 <Gustavo6046> Oh, also drive-through stations and their tendency to clump up cars in them can be a problem :p 22:57:03 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 23:00:26 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 23:19:20 <Gustavo6046> mhm 23:38:58 *** Montana_ has quit IRC 23:57:00 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 23:57:44 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd