Config
Log for #openttd on 11th December 2013:
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06:54:55  * andythenorth wonders how to compile multiple grfs from one codebase
06:54:55  <andythenorth> this might need some thought :P
06:57:50  <planetmaker> what's your plan exactly?
06:57:58  <planetmaker> good morning also :)
06:59:31  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the plan is to generate multiple Iron Horse grfs from one codebase - one grf per 'roster' (Brit, Euro, North American etc)
06:59:39  <andythenorth> this was thought to be be better than lots of parameters
06:59:55  <andythenorth> I can handle the python side of this, but the makefile needs thought :)
06:59:58  <andythenorth> for that I have zero plan
07:01:17  <andythenorth> hmm
07:01:18  <andythenorth> could cheat
07:01:28  <andythenorth> wrap the current makefile in another makefile
07:01:42  <andythenorth> pass the required set as an arg var
07:01:48  <planetmaker> why is it bad to have a region parameter like 2ccTrainSet?
07:01:52  <andythenorth> repeatedly call the existing makefile
07:02:02  <andythenorth> planetmaker: not sure, I am +/- 0 on how to do this
07:02:22  <andythenorth> there was a consensus here that multiple grfs are better
07:02:39  <andythenorth> it also eliminates an ID problem
07:03:16  <planetmaker> id problem?
07:03:26  <planetmaker> you mean you need more than 8k articulated vehicle IDs?
07:03:37  <andythenorth> Dan has plans for 15 different rosters
07:03:39  <andythenorth> or so
07:03:46  <andythenorth> each uses 1k IDs
07:04:01  <andythenorth> I could make it work in one grf
07:06:48  <andythenorth> it's easier to not worry about IDs though :)
07:08:05  <planetmaker> well. with 1k IDs you're still good for 7 times more
07:08:14  <andythenorth> limit is actually up around 16k or so
07:08:17  <planetmaker> and that's only articulated
07:08:19  <andythenorth> these days :)
07:08:28  <planetmaker> 16 even? well then
07:08:35  <andythenorth> yeah, it's not a blocking issue
07:09:08  <andythenorth> compile time (for a single grf) would be better with multiple grfs (if that makes sense)
07:09:13  <andythenorth> but that's not a blocking issue either
07:09:19  <andythenorth> there's no blocking issue that forces this
07:10:34  <planetmaker> see, I fear config problems as people have with all the ECS NewGRFs
07:10:55  <V453000> XD 8k articulated vehicles? :DDD
07:10:56  <andythenorth> yeah, that's why FIRS is all one grf
07:10:57  <V453000> wtf :DD
07:11:21  <andythenorth> V453000: 3 IDs per 'unit'
07:11:29  <V453000> thats still 2k+ ...
07:11:40  <andythenorth> some engines are made up of 2-3 units
07:11:44  <V453000> how could possibly that be reasonable :D
07:11:56  <V453000> well you can articulate the same vehicle and just change sprites?
07:12:17  <andythenorth> nah
07:12:22  <andythenorth> the props don't work
07:12:27  <andythenorth> cb36 doesn't cover all cases
07:12:34  <andythenorth> tried it :)
07:13:14  <V453000> well then do ships on rails
07:13:17  <V453000> that solves everything
07:13:21  <andythenorth> ho ho ho
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07:13:36  <andythenorth> it's <1K IDs for an actual 'roster' that you'd use in game
07:13:51  <V453000> like 1k vehicles?
07:13:51  <andythenorth> last count, I had a full 'brit' set in 500 IDs
07:13:55  <V453000> ...
07:13:57  <V453000> :D
07:14:17  <V453000> I mean, nuts has like 100 trains and it already feels like proper hell of a lot
07:14:30  <andythenorth> this is 50, including all wagons and metro
07:14:41  <andythenorth> we have some narrow gauge and maglev to add still
07:14:46  <V453000> 50 using tha many IDs?
07:14:59  <andythenorth> yes
07:15:05  <V453000> :ddddd
07:15:34  <planetmaker> 10 IDs per vehicle?
07:16:05  <V453000> im assuming you code each tender/thing/part of train as separate thing
07:16:11  <V453000> with own id
07:16:47  <andythenorth> yes
07:17:12  <andythenorth> well, each thing gets 3 IDs
07:18:12  <planetmaker> well, makes it easy, and IDs are cheap
07:18:41  <planetmaker> If you want to make several grfs, indeed I recommend to use a recursive make which builds them one by one each
07:19:02  <andythenorth> seems simplest
07:19:02  <peter1138> Which twerp increased the ID limit?
07:19:52  <planetmaker> probably as player, one grf with a few simple boolean parameters is what I'd like for this case. It's all the same kind of vehicles from the same author and set. So meh to many clicks
07:20:32  <planetmaker> if another grf needs to know it then could read the parameters
07:20:56  <andythenorth> sometimes I think a container format for multiple grfs would be useful :P
07:21:05  <andythenorth> with an action 14 to configure them
07:21:10  <andythenorth> but meh
07:21:18  <andythenorth> V453000: probably not interesting, but http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html
07:21:44  <planetmaker> that's what ecs basically does... and container format is tar. Might even allow several grf inside, dunno
07:22:13  <V453000> (:
07:22:48  <V453000> I clearly understand that The Cow Jumped Over the Moon
07:22:59  <V453000> thanks
07:23:02  <andythenorth> yeah, $someone needs to write some buy menu text
07:23:31  <andythenorth> the plan is to have this done for christmas
07:23:34  <andythenorth> quite a bit to do :P
07:23:39  <V453000> good luck :D
07:23:42  <planetmaker> hoho
07:23:47  <V453000> my plan is not to do anything till christmas :D
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07:43:56  <planetmaker> bbl
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10:25:41  <__ln__> http://www.studentwork.fi/tyopaikat/job/?id=10063
10:28:05  <Xaroth|Work> native speaker of latin? haha
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10:29:44  <TinoDidriksen> Native level is achievable, but that's still a crazy position.
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10:31:31  <Xaroth|Work> for a dead language, it'll be pretty hard to be a native latin speaker
10:32:00  <TinoDidriksen> Yes, but not "native level"
10:32:08  <TinoDidriksen> There's a distinction.
10:32:21  <andythenorth> vatican city? :P
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15:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> http://hobia.com/img/article/gebackene-iPhones.jpg
15:18:53  <peter1138> Sounds like asking for trouble.
15:24:30  * andythenorth hums a tune
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18:29:25  <andythenorth> it's oh so quiet
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18:30:31  <andythenorth> tech levels anyone? o_O
18:30:48  <Eddi|zuHause> play civ :)
18:30:53  <andythenorth> heresy
18:32:03  <V453000> wet tech?
18:32:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i think research/"tech levels" is too far of a gameplay change. you can't just put it on top of the current game. you invalidate too many current assumptions of the game internals
18:33:22  <andythenorth> which assumptions?
18:33:40  <andythenorth> shall we make a list? o_O
18:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole foundation of what an "engine" is
18:34:25  <andythenorth> you mean in the train sense, or the game sense?
18:34:46  <Eddi|zuHause> in how the newgrf defines its properties
18:34:55  <V453000> engine code: unlocked, engine sprites: unlocked
18:34:56  <V453000> :DDD
18:35:20  <V453000> bugs in sprites: requires further research
18:35:27  <andythenorth> V453000: no, you have to buy more in-game credits, for real €
18:35:30  <andythenorth> :P
18:35:41  <andythenorth> "unlock your DLC"
18:35:49  <andythenorth> or do 3 days pointless farming
18:36:20  <andythenorth> "click 900 times to unlock a new crate"
18:36:38  <glx> of course xp gain is daily caped
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18:39:26  <andythenorth> the only problem I see - and it's a biggish one - is tech equivalence across sets
18:39:36  <andythenorth> tech levels demands a GS to run it
18:39:45  <andythenorth> and the GS has no fricking idea what the newgrf author intends
18:39:52  <V453000> :D
18:40:00  <andythenorth> although it's a moot point probably, because we're not exactly drowning in GS authors
18:40:22  <V453000> the only problem I see is that you easily have tech through introduction dates already :P
18:41:35  <frosch123> what to do on 13-12-11 ?
18:42:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the only way you can implement "tech levels" by interacting with current game mechanics is taking the introduction date and make it depend on some kind of achievement level. but that is pointless, because to make "useful" tech levels you need something to diversify, so you can focus more on diesel, or more on electric, more on speed, or more on power...
18:42:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and that's all not possible with the way things work currently
18:43:22  <Pinkbeast> It would be hard also to avoid "impossible" outcomes where you got Kings before Castles or something like that
18:43:50  <Pinkbeast> ... with real vehicle sets obv.
18:43:53  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I had no concept of research
18:44:03  <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: so what? :)
18:44:27  <andythenorth> I just thought of doing unlocks against achievements, whilst also solving daylength
18:44:31  <Pinkbeast> andythenorth: So someone playing with real vehicle sets probably cares, no?
18:44:40  <andythenorth> well they are wrong by default
18:44:44  <andythenorth> so we can ignore them
18:44:45  <andythenorth> it' ok :)
18:44:54  <andythenorth> anyway, two birds, one stone
18:45:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26156 trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt (2013-12-11 18:45:11 UTC)
18:45:20  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:21  <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 4 changes by Phreeze
18:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> there's only two options: "realism" or "wetrails"
18:45:40  <andythenorth> he he
18:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no middle ground
18:45:54  <andythenorth> do not go in the middle of the road
18:45:58  <andythenorth> Pinkbeast I think that's a non-issue, unless the engines are in separate grfs
18:46:11  <andythenorth> and if you don't like, turn off tech levels :P
18:46:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i did that once
18:46:42  <andythenorth> ?
18:46:50  <Eddi|zuHause> we were on vacation in austria, and our car broke down. it was late and no traffic whatsoever
18:47:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and the police stopped me: "why are you going in the middle of the road" .. "well i'm bored"
18:47:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i was about 12 or so
18:48:11  <andythenorth> anyway meh
18:48:14  <andythenorth> :)
18:48:20  <andythenorth> we probably have enough features
18:48:23  <andythenorth> let's not have more :P
18:48:29  <andythenorth> in fact can we remove any?
18:48:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: don't waste your energy on "tech levels", that is my opinion
18:48:49  <andythenorth> I am +0.3
18:48:57  <andythenorth> I just think GS is really crippled currently
18:49:17  <andythenorth> and we could stop talking about daylenght
18:49:21  <andythenorth> daylength *
18:49:35  <andythenorth> and we could have vehicles be available at the same time when they need to
18:49:50  <Eddi|zuHause> just look at how the first 5 years of newgrf development look "crippled" from current perspective
18:56:28  <andythenorth> still does :D
18:57:38  <andythenorth> except for trains :P
18:57:47  <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as it does not, development stops :p
18:58:03  <andythenorth> I have accepted defeat
18:58:08  <andythenorth> I am now making a train set
18:58:18  <andythenorth> you can only stay on a losing path for so long :P
18:58:27  <andythenorth> it's the V453000 solution
19:00:11  <George> Error: 500 Internal Server Error
19:00:11  <George>
19:00:12  <George> Sorry, the requested URL 'http://translator.openttdcoop.org, translator.openttdcoop.org/string/xussrset/ru_RU/STR_CAN_ATTACH_NO_AFTER_MIDDLE_UNIT' caused an error:
19:00:14  <George>
19:00:16  <George> Internal Server Error
19:00:22  <V453000> waaat :)
19:00:51  <V453000> not my fault every idiot makes realizmFTW train sets
19:04:17  <andythenorth> trains also have a better spec
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19:49:37  <Wolf01> hello
19:51:03  <Alberth> hi hi
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20:05:13  *** valhallasw [~valhallas@zeroshell2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:05:26  <LordAro> irc topic is outdated, btw ;)
20:06:32  <Wolf01> a little... and my site's news too
20:07:29  <andythenorth> one day
20:07:40  <andythenorth> I will teach my text editor to auto-indent other people's code :(
20:07:52  <Wolf01> mine does
20:07:57  <andythenorth> soooo bored of tab and shift tab
20:11:18  *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd
20:12:46  <Wolf01> yay I got another google +1 on my site...
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20:14:27  * Alberth is happy for Wolf01
20:14:43  <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.3.3
20:14:44  *** DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.3.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
20:16:07  <Wolf01> it's the third one, one is mine, one is from a coworker, one I bet it is from a friend of mine :P
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22:11:14  <stanek> which vcs should I use to check out source code? I see there are svn, git, and hg mirrors, but which does the project recommend?
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22:14:06  <frosch123> that depends on what you want to do with it
22:15:05  <frosch123> if you want to build them only without modifying the source, you likely want svn, because only svn has the releases and the nightlies are versioned according to svn
22:15:23  <frosch123> if you want to change code, you are way better off with a distributed vcs, like git or hg
22:15:24  <stanek> I want to do some development
22:15:24  <planetmaker> stanek, if you want to simply re-build an official version: use svn. If you want to toy around with source and patch etc, then use hg or git
22:15:30  <frosch123> which actually support merging
22:15:38  <stanek> ah ok.
22:16:03  <frosch123> in this channel hg + mq is likely the most popular thing
22:16:14  <stanek> I'm quite partial to git myself :)
22:16:18  <frosch123> but some people insist on using git
22:17:08  <frosch123> well, if you are used to git, just use it :)
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22:37:34  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:56:43  <alluke> whats the max image file size allowed on tt-forums
22:56:55  <alluke> or is .gif allowed format
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23:12:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think max file size was 6MB
23:12:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and what do you need .gif for?
23:12:21  <Eddi|zuHause> is this the '90s?
23:12:49  <NGC3982> If only.
23:13:31  <alluke> i have an animated 19.8 mb screenshot
23:13:33  <alluke> 2 frames
23:13:52  <alluke> 7680x1702
23:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah that won't work :p
23:14:27  <alluke> fucking fuck
23:14:41  <LordAro> wat.
23:15:05  <alluke> should i ask if owen gives me an exemption
23:15:40  <LordAro> don't think he can
23:15:46  <LordAro> just upload it somewhere else
23:15:59  <alluke> could
23:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: file size is a server-wide configuration issue
23:16:14  <alluke> i see if i can split the frames
23:16:15  <alluke> ok
23:16:31  <LordAro> google gif compressors too
23:16:38  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: and why does it have to be animated?
23:16:55  <Eddi|zuHause> just make two files?
23:16:56  <alluke> builsings/trees on and off
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23:17:09  <alluke> those ttrs skyscrapers cover too much stuff
23:17:12  <alluke> trying
23:17:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and then cut each image into 4
23:17:48  <glx> ttrs is just out of scale
23:17:50  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: that is no reason to make things animated
23:18:33  <Eddi|zuHause> why do you think i could see more in an image that flickers every 2 seconds than in one where it's steady all the time?
23:19:11  <alluke> you see the changes without moving between two files
23:19:36  <alluke> hold on
23:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but i see the exact same changes by alt-tabbing two browser windows
23:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't have to force an animation down my throat for that
23:20:32  <alluke> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/metronetwork.gif see yourself
23:21:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes exactly
23:22:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i totally lose orientation while scrolling
23:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> because the image completely changes every 2 seconds
23:22:25  <alluke> i ca cgange it to 5 or 10 seconds too
23:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not help at all
23:23:18  <alluke> yeah
23:23:22  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you can make it so it only changes when pressing 'X', it's completely useless to combine the two pictures in one
23:23:32  <alluke> split image is 9.3 mb per frame
23:23:35  <NGC3982> Bah.
23:23:42  <alluke> i guess i need jpeg compression
23:23:43  <NGC3982> I can't find any Glados sound pack from Portal.
23:24:00  <Eddi|zuHause> DO NOT EVER USE JPEG FOR SCREENSHOTS!!!
23:24:42  <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/JQEX0Tg.png
23:25:10  <alluke> i must if the filesize gets too big
23:25:23  <glx> jpeg tends to make signals hard to determine
23:25:46  <Eddi|zuHause> jpeg tends to make screenshots bigger
23:25:47  <alluke> they arent important in this case
23:25:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and more blurry
23:26:24  <glx> oh and use internal screenshot feature :)
23:26:25  <Eddi|zuHause> and png has better compression than gif
23:26:42  <NGC3982> Also, make sure you do it on a modern computer
23:26:48  <NGC3982> The bits are faster
23:27:15  <glx> but don't try a giant screenshot
23:27:26  <glx> (it's dangerous)
23:28:52  <glx> (eats all memory and swap a lot for a long time)
23:29:22  <Eddi|zuHause> only if you try it on maps larger than 256x256 :p
23:29:59  <glx> 256x256 is already a lot of pixels
23:30:14  <NGC3982> Also, make sure to do it on a Mac
23:30:18  <NGC3982> Since it's more enviromental
23:31:04  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 256*256*64*16*4
23:31:04  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 268435456
23:31:15  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 256*256*64*16*4/1024**2
23:31:15  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 256
23:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> 256MB in uncompressed images should be handleable
23:31:42  <alluke> single frame is 10.5 mb :(
23:32:02  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: so cut it in half
23:33:03  <alluke> saved it again in preview and the filesize dropped to 8.6 for some reason
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23:42:38  <alluke> jpe'd them
23:42:41  <alluke> haters gonna hate
23:43:41  <alluke> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/metroon.jpg
23:43:49  <alluke> thats the one with more compression
23:43:56  <alluke> does it look horrible?
23:44:26  <LordAro> assume yes
23:44:47  <alluke> my metros look like turds on rails now :D
23:45:14  <alluke> no more bright orange
23:46:14  <alluke> good enough
23:46:48  <alluke> how to name the pictures
23:46:59  <alluke> (houses) on/off sounds a bit dumb
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