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00:00:10 <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: 00:01:25 <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: For me deb repo would be enough ;-) I know a few projects that offer them in order to skip distribution queues. 00:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: there are some .deb files on the download page, if that's what you're asking 00:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: and a generic bundle that should run on any distribution 00:09:19 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 00:09:50 <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: I know but installing standalone deb files is a fast way to make your system a mess and it does not offer automatic updates. For example I use Prosody repo for their single package in newest version. 00:09:53 <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: So I suppose that OpenTTD does not offer deb repo/ppa? 00:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: no, but if your distribution has anywhere beyond 100 users, it probably has someone that offers a repository containing an updated version 00:12:39 *** supermop has quit IRC 00:17:20 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 00:18:02 <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: I'd like to install it on LM so probably anything from the Debian family would work. The problem is not even that I need most recent features but to be server-compatible with Windows user that presumably will have newest stable version. 00:18:34 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 00:20:27 <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: Do you know how big is the gap needed to loose compatibility between OpenTTD versions? Is that any difference is a blocker or compatibility is lost only after some significant changes? 00:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Etua: i (sorta) understand the problem, but really, this is a problem you should talk with distribution-maintainers about, you probably won't get a satisfying answer here 00:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm certain within "anything from the debian family" you will find hundreds of suitible repos 00:23:17 <Etua> Eddi|zuHause: Ok, I just wondered if there is some official OpenTTD repository. LM uses mainly Ubuntu LTS packages base so I probably won't do anything about the release cycle. Anyway, thank you for your help! 00:24:42 *** orudge` has quit IRC 00:25:16 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 00:25:17 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 00:30:50 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 00:32:52 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 00:33:59 *** DDR has quit IRC 00:34:16 *** DDR has joined #openttd 00:41:03 *** Etua has quit IRC 02:00:56 *** orudge` has quit IRC 02:01:04 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 02:01:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 02:14:23 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:38:35 *** glx has quit IRC 02:45:06 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 03:03:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 03:09:13 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 03:16:32 *** synchris has quit IRC 03:17:15 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 03:20:29 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 03:31:12 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 03:36:43 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 03:41:13 *** orudge` has quit IRC 03:41:44 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 03:41:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 03:42:38 *** supermop has joined #openttd 03:46:33 *** APTX has quit IRC 03:46:46 *** APTX has joined #openttd 03:48:59 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 03:50:43 *** supermop has quit IRC 04:11:13 *** supermop has joined #openttd 04:16:47 *** orudge` has quit IRC 04:17:28 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 04:17:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 04:27:35 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 04:46:16 *** supermop has quit IRC 04:51:38 *** supermop has joined #openttd 05:15:38 *** orudge` has quit IRC 05:15:46 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 05:15:46 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 05:20:40 *** supermop has quit IRC 05:25:55 *** supermop has joined #openttd 05:35:01 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 05:37:56 *** orudge` has quit IRC 05:38:01 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 05:38:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 05:40:13 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 05:44:16 *** supermop has quit IRC 05:50:20 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 05:52:43 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 05:54:38 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 05:54:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 05:54:41 <Alberth> moin 05:57:44 *** Gja has joined #openttd 05:58:45 <andythenorth> o/ 06:05:28 <andythenorth> V453000: still thing? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5461 06:09:07 <Alberth> looks highly complicated 06:09:31 <Alberth> more something for a planning kind of view 06:11:53 * andythenorth doesn’t understand this one https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1615 06:19:50 <Alberth> haha :) 06:20:45 <Alberth> company value is the sum of the prices of the shares, so if it's negative, you'd get money if you buy stocks from it 06:21:40 <Alberth> the OP probably reasoned that a negative value of a company should be an option, ie if you invest a lot without a proper profit 06:23:05 <Alberth> it's not going to be changed, at least not soon, and likely never 06:23:57 *** orudge` has quit IRC 06:24:23 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 06:24:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 06:31:29 * andythenorth will close that one 06:34:05 <andythenorth> isn’t this just ‘losing at OpenTTD’? 06:34:06 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6103 06:34:26 <andythenorth> at first glance, I’d say that town is terribly served by transport 06:34:51 <andythenorth> although I can see the logical fallacy of 3000+ pax in an isolated town with 1000 popn. :D 06:46:47 <Alberth> it's already closed? 06:47:39 <Alberth> stations are a bit too good at collecting cargo :p 06:48:18 <andythenorth> I was just intrigued by the fallacy : 06:48:19 <andythenorth> :) 06:49:32 <andythenorth> we need a FS category for scenario editor 06:49:36 * andythenorth can’t add those 06:50:57 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 06:52:03 <SpComb> needs induced demand for pax 06:53:52 <LordAro> moin 06:54:56 * andythenorth hacks flyspray 06:55:14 <andythenorth> edits all relevant issue titles to start “Scenario Editor: " 06:55:19 <andythenorth> such hax 06:56:28 *** Progman has joined #openttd 06:56:52 <LordAro> andythenorth: not easier to wait for frosch to reappear and add a category? :p 06:57:22 <andythenorth> such lack of patience 06:57:26 <andythenorth> hi also 06:58:08 <andythenorth> I don’t understand this https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5211 06:58:25 <andythenorth> if I use ‘restart’ in console, I get the current map reset 06:58:57 <andythenorth> doesn’t matter if scenario or random game 06:59:01 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 06:59:25 <andythenorth> no actually, that’s user error 06:59:35 <andythenorth> yeah, it bins the scenario and starts a new game 07:00:48 <Alberth> restart generates a new world, which doesn't do what you expect when you start from a loaded game :p 07:01:11 <andythenorth> I have left it open low priority 07:01:16 <andythenorth> should it actually be closed? 07:01:32 <Alberth> it differs between game versions, since the places where random is used changes 07:01:46 <Alberth> I don't think we want to stay compatible there 07:02:17 <Alberth> so yeah, close would be fine, imho 07:02:24 <andythenorth> do you have close rights? :) 07:08:09 <Alberth> probably 07:17:19 <Alberth> Not sure I agree with your conclusion of 6525 07:17:37 <Alberth> I think it makes sense to use the same rules in both cases 07:18:14 <andythenorth> does that let us consolidate anything? 07:18:39 <andythenorth> I am with frosch - the addition of a 2nd economy was an unfortunate mistake :) 07:18:47 <andythenorth> hindsight 07:19:42 * andythenorth wonders how to withdraw a closure request :P 07:20:00 <Alberth> dev can deny it :p 07:20:54 <andythenorth> there a quite a few where I requested closure instead of just closing 07:21:00 <andythenorth> because I’m really not certain 07:21:06 <Alberth> that's good 07:21:42 <andythenorth> what is clear: the majority of the 255 feature requests are (1) fair and valid (2) never going to get done :) 07:21:57 <LordAro> :) 07:21:58 <Alberth> If the OP had fixed the patch, I would have tried getting it in, but apparently even that is not discussable 07:21:59 <andythenorth> I am starting to priortise to ‘high’ and ‘low’ to try and make sense of them without closing 07:22:40 <andythenorth> even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :) 07:22:43 <andythenorth> even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :) 07:22:44 <andythenorth> even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :) 07:23:02 <andythenorth> even just this search for ‘timetables’ shows how half-assed new features spawn more work :) 07:23:03 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=timetable&project=1&search_name=&search_in_comments=1&search_in_details=1&type%5B%5D=2&sev%5B%5D=&pri%5B%5D=&due%5B%5D=&reported%5B%5D=&cat%5B%5D=&status%5B%5D=open&percent%5B%5D=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&do=index 07:23:07 <LordAro> andythenorth: nice 07:23:30 <LordAro> i think that's unfair though, there's a difference between "half assed" and "use case no one thought of" 07:23:37 <Alberth> of course, you get bug reports about stuff that doesn't work :p 07:23:57 <andythenorth> Alberth: I would still reject 6525 on basis of “OP has abandoned work, and was slightly rude about it" 07:25:28 <Alberth> "rude" is perhaps not the right word, but we fundamentally differ in opinion 07:26:12 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 07:27:30 <andythenorth> so now it’s basically “to move this forward anywhere, dev must rewrite patch for issue they never really cared about” o_O 07:28:43 <LordAro> jesus guys, it's not a huge amount of work 07:28:45 * LordAro looks at it 07:30:19 <andythenorth> :) 07:33:48 * andythenorth found some nice duplicates 07:33:55 <andythenorth> almost word for word 07:34:13 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 07:36:07 <Alberth> LordAro: yep, I know, but I scribble down to do it, then just forget it until I run into it again 07:36:28 <andythenorth> like my FIRS ‘to do later’ list :) 07:36:36 <andythenorth> which is in no way going in tickets 07:36:53 * andythenorth opens that list to check 07:37:00 * andythenorth closes that list quickly 07:38:18 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 07:41:13 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 07:41:26 *** Progman has quit IRC 07:43:47 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6466 07:43:52 <andythenorth> I think that isn’t 07:44:39 <andythenorth> I think OP confuses ‘cargo is assigned a destination’ (false) with ‘cdist controls loading of vehicles at stations’ (true) 07:46:34 <LordAro> ok, this code is actually just a mess 07:48:35 *** supermop has joined #openttd 07:49:00 <andythenorth> economy? 07:49:16 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 07:49:31 <LordAro> yeah 07:49:42 <LordAro> smooth & original are just smashed together 07:50:03 <andythenorth> there’s no abstraction 07:50:09 <andythenorth> it’s very much JFDI spaghetti 07:50:39 * andythenorth is very familiar with industry_cmd.cpp and related 07:50:41 <andythenorth> for reasons 07:51:27 <andythenorth> compared to other bits of src I’ve read, it seems to be one of the messiest areas 07:51:49 <andythenorth> but somehow newgrf industries are one of the most successful areas of modding :) 07:52:07 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 07:52:11 <LordAro> heh 07:52:53 <andythenorth> nice houses are sometimes messy :) 07:53:14 <Alberth> economies is likely close to original decoded source :) 07:53:29 <andythenorth> there are probably technically pure bits of newgrf support that are never used 07:53:37 <andythenorth> or GS :P 07:53:58 * andythenorth would burn the economies, and replace with economy script 07:54:05 <LordAro> ES 07:54:16 <andythenorth> which could manipulate industry and town 07:54:25 <andythenorth> and in turn, be issued events by GS 07:54:37 <andythenorth> economy script would be pretty dumb and limited 07:54:55 <andythenorth> callbacks on some frequency, with control over map regions or tiles 07:55:42 <Alberth> +1 07:55:50 <andythenorth> GS controls goals 07:56:21 <andythenorth> so in this idea, you could have city builders or busy bee or whatever 07:56:30 <andythenorth> independent of, e.g. industry production 07:56:36 *** supermop has quit IRC 07:56:48 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't we discussed yesterday hat squirrel is terrible for callbacks? 07:56:57 * andythenorth didn’t specify an implementation 07:57:14 <andythenorth> economy script could be nfo, possibly 07:57:26 <andythenorth> or something else 07:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> new nfo feature? 07:58:54 <andythenorth> my idea is to literally dump a couple of economy vars on tiles or towns 07:59:05 <andythenorth> and let ES adjust them on some frequency 07:59:13 <andythenorth> or response to limited number of events maybe 07:59:31 <andythenorth> don’t go around on a loop trying to micro-manage industries and towns 08:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the first thing i would do would be to implement some kind of slowly growing world population, which moves between towns and cities (urbanisation), when provicded with serviced industries 08:02:11 <Alberth> you need some system that can carry out long term orders, imho 08:02:39 <Alberth> and something of a planner 08:03:07 <andythenorth> it needs some kind of state 08:03:19 <Alberth> we have that, the entire game 08:03:23 <andythenorth> not just stateless response to cb, which limits you to pretty much random response to local vars 08:03:33 <andythenorth> I mean state outside the map array 08:03:36 <andythenorth> history or so 08:03:41 <andythenorth> but maybe that’s over-complicated 08:03:47 <andythenorth> and maybe that’s for GS 08:04:00 <andythenorth> yeah, ES should be simpler than that 08:04:11 <Alberth> stateless should be included, if only for backward compatibility 08:04:26 <Alberth> and it's a valid form of planning :p 08:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the GS has state, but not a lot of context (used GRF), whereas the GRF has lots of context but not enough state 08:04:44 <Alberth> not very effective though :p 08:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so things like house construction or production callback need access to this economy state, but also in a way that makes combining grfs from different authors possible 08:06:12 <Alberth> GRF has context at too low leve 08:06:17 <Alberth> ie too local 08:07:05 <_dp_> o/ 08:07:13 <Alberth> so randomisation stays in GRF, higher long term direction more in GS 08:07:19 <Alberth> o/ dp 08:07:46 <andythenorth> newgrf is a walled garden for production 08:07:57 <andythenorth> all we can do is indicate to the newgrf what the local map conditions are 08:08:05 <_dp_> 6525 is an example of what should economy be splitted into imo 08:08:08 <Alberth> perhaps something related tp position (this position should grow/stay the same/shrink) ? 08:08:52 <Alberth> wrt to some property (population, industry production, ..) 08:08:53 <andythenorth> yes 08:08:57 <andythenorth> or just a byte 08:09:04 <andythenorth> indicating current economic health 08:09:08 <andythenorth> that would be enough 08:09:16 <Alberth> would work 08:09:20 <andythenorth> I want to keep it really simple 08:09:35 <andythenorth> if we do it simple and blunt, it can be used not just by houses and industries 08:09:41 <andythenorth> but also towns can use it to grow or shrink 08:09:50 <andythenorth> or build roads 08:10:14 <andythenorth> and it _could_ be used to localised cargo payment rates (custom profit calculation exists already) 08:10:47 <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a global level of coordination (like world population), and a regional level coordination (like town has access to a source of electricity) additionally to the local "coordination" that newgrfs can already do 08:10:59 <_dp_> your ES looks pretty much the same as client-side GS I was talking about recently 08:11:39 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: coordination could be ES or GS 08:11:47 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I'd see that as something internal to the global planner 08:11:55 <andythenorth> I would give GS commands to ES, on a per-region basis 08:12:24 <andythenorth> hmm, that might be a disaster though :) 08:13:18 <Alberth> ES == economy script? 08:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i think what is missing is a communication layer between GS and GRF 08:13:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so that the GS can understand what each industry is currently doing, and can indicate to the industry what it wants to be controlling 08:13:58 <Alberth> looks like it 08:14:07 <andythenorth> ES = Economy Script 08:14:21 <andythenorth> I think it’s possibly an Economy Layer as much as a script 08:14:25 <andythenorth> it would have logic, but not much 08:14:29 <Alberth> one way communication GS -> GRF would be sufficient 08:14:36 <andythenorth> it _could_ have been done with newgrf towns 08:14:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: the communication has to be semaphore/telegraph, not direct control 08:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there is this weird town storage 08:15:37 <andythenorth> there is 08:15:44 <andythenorth> I considered using it, but it’s a hack 08:15:51 <andythenorth> and again, the towns don’t have global overview 08:16:03 <andythenorth> consistent theme 08:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it could, if the GS also had access to that town storage, and could organize the data 08:16:34 <andythenorth> yes 08:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but then you still need a common interface, so you could plug in and out different grfs and gamescripts 08:17:19 <andythenorth> at that point, my ES idea is ~identical, except it provides a dedicated storage, not dependent on convention 08:17:37 <andythenorth> using town storage is totally dependent on everyone agreeing which register to use 08:18:03 <andythenorth> also I would like to see the smooth economy eliminated from openttd src 08:18:07 <andythenorth> and moved into a script layer 08:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> NoEconomy :p 08:18:26 <andythenorth> yes 08:18:31 <andythenorth> perfect name 08:18:57 <andythenorth> NoIndustries would also be good :P 08:19:10 <andythenorth> re-implement them all in clean NML, ship it with openttd 08:19:10 <_dp_> why wasn't GS called NoScript? 08:19:17 <_dp_> would be a very fitting name :p 08:19:19 <andythenorth> ha 08:19:40 <Alberth> let's make NoOpenTTD :p 08:19:44 <andythenorth> move more ‘vanilla’ stuff to newgrf, ship source clean with the game, let people mod 08:19:55 <andythenorth> eliminate > 'some' feature requests 08:20:02 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it would not. because NoAI was named that when the first step was ripping out the old AI. with GS there was nothing existing to rip out 08:20:02 <_dp_> Alberth, fork it and rename trunk :p 08:20:24 <andythenorth> ship a cross-platform nmlc, create a ‘compile’ button right in the game 08:20:31 <andythenorth> :P 08:20:34 <Alberth> :D 08:20:56 <andythenorth> NewGRF UI :P 08:21:00 <andythenorth> mod that 08:26:06 <LordAro> https://pastebin.com/B6JuNpKr these are basically equivalent, right? 08:30:03 <V453000> hmmm the colour offset logic I have for darkening semi-transparent edges is an absolute nightmare :D 08:30:08 <V453000> it has so many exceptions and special cases 08:30:30 <_dp_> LordAro, what file is it from? 08:30:55 <LordAro> industry_cmd.cpp 08:30:55 <andythenorth> V453000: edges are hard :) 08:31:56 <andythenorth> V453000: also, thing still? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5461 08:32:59 <_dp_> LordAro, don't think they are, looks like while only closes when it tries to go below PRODLEVEL_MINIMUM 08:33:09 <_dp_> LordAro, and if closes when it reaches it 08:33:46 <andythenorth> fricking airports 08:35:01 <andythenorth> specifically town limitations on them 08:35:05 <andythenorth> should have been newgrf 08:35:22 <andythenorth> n airports per town, noise limits, blah blah 08:35:36 <andythenorth> as it is I have to use OGFX+ Airports just to fix it 08:35:42 <andythenorth> meanwhile https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5968 08:35:54 <andythenorth> that has a patch, but should be closed imho 08:36:17 <andythenorth> solved: use noise limits, and OGFX+ Airports 08:39:45 <V453000> andythenorth: iz thing, would be cute, but it's just another nice idea that doesn't really need doing 08:39:54 <V453000> probably more problems than worth 08:39:59 <V453000> close af 08:40:15 <_dp_> 5968 should probably go along with splitting town attitude setting 08:40:34 <andythenorth> just delegate it to mods 08:40:38 <andythenorth> noise limit is regret 08:40:59 <_dp_> as economy attitude also controls several independent things 08:41:13 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 08:42:03 <Wolf01> o/ 08:42:23 <andythenorth> lo Wolf01 08:42:30 <andythenorth> this one is just a straight yes/no https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6300 08:42:39 <andythenorth> and it’s a trivial patch if yes 08:44:17 <Wolf01> No, as Alberth said, change your hotkeys 08:45:07 <Wolf01> As I might already use CTRL+S for other things :P 08:45:32 <andythenorth> LordAro: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3951 o_O 08:45:41 <andythenorth> NoTownGrowth 08:45:47 <Wolf01> Also one might like ctrl+shift+F12 to savem because office use that XD 08:45:48 <LordAro> haha 08:45:53 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 08:46:00 <LordAro> andythenorth: kill it 08:46:15 <andythenorth> LordAro: it’s nice evidence for scripted town control :) 08:46:17 <andythenorth> but ok 08:46:47 <Wolf01> 3951 is "close, reason: disable road building for towns" 08:47:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, and that one may already be possible actually 08:47:18 <_dp_> andythenorth, iirc GS is allowed to bridge as deity 08:47:33 <andythenorth> GS is too slow to properly control trowns 08:47:35 <andythenorth> towns * 08:47:40 <Wolf01> Oh, I didn't read the title XD 08:47:42 <_dp_> yeah, except that) 08:47:58 <Wolf01> It was about building bridges, don't town already build bridges over rails? 08:48:10 <andythenorth> not afaik 08:48:55 <Wolf01> I didn't play a full game lately, the only one was a friend, maybe he built them 08:49:02 <Wolf01> *with a friend 08:49:07 <_dp_> though in this case I'd say speed isn't the issue, but lack of knowlege when town is going to expand over that rail 08:49:21 <_dp_> Wolf01, it builds level crossings if allowed 08:49:48 <andythenorth> _dp_: that’s still speed 08:49:53 <Wolf01> I would like them to build bridges if level crossing is not allowed 08:49:55 <andythenorth> “GS can’t respond to callbacks” :) 08:50:08 <_dp_> andythenorth, well, if you put it like that :) 08:50:09 <andythenorth> some new script layer, or newgrf could do this 08:50:18 <andythenorth> cb -> town is trying to build road -> check tiles 08:50:23 <andythenorth> TMWFTLB imho 08:50:27 <andythenorth> but plausible 08:50:39 <andythenorth> 476 FS issues 08:51:57 <andythenorth> nice mini project for $someone here https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=Scenario+Editor&project=1&search_name=&search_for_all=1&type%5B%5D=2&sev%5B%5D=&pri%5B%5D=2&due%5B%5D=&reported%5B%5D=&cat%5B%5D=&status%5B%5D=open&percent%5B%5D=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&do=index 08:52:11 <andythenorth> SE is *UI* pretty much independent of savegames, right? 08:52:25 <andythenorth> *UI* is /s 08:52:47 <Wolf01> Could I add my patches too? 08:52:55 <_dp_> oh, actually, if town roads are disabled there could be a GS that takes that part completely. Then it will decide itself when to expand and where 08:53:23 <andythenorth> NoTownGrowth 08:53:34 <andythenorth> also NoTownLayouts 08:53:47 <andythenorth> core should do less and less 08:54:02 <_dp_> andythenorth, those are just imaginary things, I'm talking of what could be done already :p 08:54:04 <andythenorth> the less core does, the more that patchpacks can roam around 08:54:15 <andythenorth> _dp_: fair 08:54:18 <Alberth> scenario editor needs lots of work 08:54:48 * andythenorth wonders what the separation between SE and world-gen should be 08:54:53 <andythenorth> world-gen is pretty crap 08:55:06 <andythenorth> tropic doesn’t work at all 08:55:33 <Wolf01> BTW, I usually try to build embanked or trenched rails, for noise... you know... so towns can build tunnels or bridges, depends how I build them 08:55:52 <andythenorth> why do we have the combination of (1) climate specific topography and 08:55:59 <andythenorth> (2) also player options for ‘mountainous’, ‘variety distribution’ etc 08:56:05 <andythenorth> as most of (2) doesn’t really work 08:56:13 <andythenorth> it’s false configuration options 08:56:22 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 08:56:26 <andythenorth> because the climate topography just ignores it 08:56:39 * andythenorth may be over-stating the case here :) 08:57:32 <andythenorth> what if I starting a game and building a scenario were same pipeline, used differently 08:57:51 <Alberth> it's surely trivial to spend a decade full time reworking all the parts 08:57:57 <andythenorth> heh 08:58:38 <andythenorth> generate height terrain / use heightmap -> apply climate -> generate landscape greeble / manually apply -> generate towns / place towns -> generate industries / place industries -> play 08:58:43 <Alberth> starting a game would have much less control, I think 08:59:21 <Alberth> "editing" also implies you can change your mind without starting from scratch again :) 08:59:59 <andythenorth> drop into SE at any point, edit your map, continue playing 09:00:18 <andythenorth> like creative/survival mode switch in minecraft 09:00:45 <LordAro> https://gist.github.com/LordAro/6979a2322dd45341ce741a22d7acfb28 how's this look? 09:00:56 <andythenorth> 7 year old just found the “why can’t aRVs go in drive-in stops” issue :( 09:01:01 * andythenorth having to do user support here 09:01:18 <LordAro> i think it's as simple as i can make a vaguely sane "split the two economies" 09:01:24 <andythenorth> message could be better “Articulated vehicles can’t use this road stop" 09:01:31 <LordAro> andythenorth: haha 09:01:37 <LordAro> this is true 09:04:23 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 09:04:35 <andythenorth> LordAro: I could test that gist, but I can’t review it :| 09:05:06 <andythenorth> if we had discord, I could just put a mic on my 7 year old, and we could answer all his ‘why did you make it like this?’ questions :P 09:05:13 <LordAro> lol 09:05:23 <andythenorth> apparently ‘smooth is not very smooth' 09:05:33 <andythenorth> and ‘Engineering Supplies are very annoying' 09:05:52 <LordAro> andythenorth: i think that second one is on you 09:06:06 <Wolf01> andythenorth: you can ask him and just report here the answers 09:06:27 <andythenorth> he could just join irc 09:06:32 <andythenorth> but we’d have to not swear 09:06:40 * andythenorth would have to ban V453000 09:06:42 <Wolf01> Kick V 09:06:44 <Wolf01> Eh 09:07:08 <LordAro> hahaha 09:07:39 <Wolf01> He is like the Deadpool of this channel 09:09:51 <andythenorth> NoSignals 09:10:42 <LordAro> NoOpenTTD 09:10:44 <LordAro> wait 09:10:50 <LordAro> Alberth: review plox 09:11:19 <LordAro> andythenorth: how many open tasks did you start with? 09:11:36 <andythenorth> 840 or so 09:11:51 <andythenorth> there are 475 open now 09:12:07 <LordAro> thought so 09:12:10 <LordAro> nearly half way \o/ 09:12:11 <andythenorth> of those, 71 are patches that might be worth reviewing 09:12:47 <andythenorth> ~30 are crashes that might want investigated (boring) 09:13:06 <Alberth> LordAro: I had a try, but your economy patch moves too much stuff around to understand 09:13:32 <andythenorth> there are another 130 or so bugs, which are probably mostly TMWFTLB, but ought to be triaged 09:13:37 *** perk11 has quit IRC 09:13:40 <andythenorth> so that’s 230 issues that could go 09:14:00 <andythenorth> the rest are feature requests, which look increasingly hard to reject 09:14:07 <_dp_> diff itself is kind of weird, it mixes removes and adds from different functions 09:14:11 <andythenorth> 40 of them are george asking for specific newgrf things 09:14:14 <andythenorth> the other 190…blah 09:14:15 <_dp_> I'm trying to do a split view atm 09:14:18 <LordAro> Alberth: yeah, it's probably easier to compare the files themselves 09:14:22 <LordAro> rather than the raw diff 09:14:56 <LordAro> vimdiff ;) 09:15:51 <andythenorth> if I close a lot of these feature requests…it’s heading into drama land 09:15:59 <andythenorth> even though, empirically nothing changed 09:16:07 <andythenorth> before closure: feature will not be done 09:16:14 <andythenorth> after closure: feature will not be done 09:16:20 * andythenorth collapsed a waveform though 09:16:28 <Wolf01> Added a new task, for the glory of satan 09:16:47 <andythenorth> think that overlaps another one somewhere 09:16:48 * andythenorth looks 09:17:10 <_dp_> LordAro, bb diff here https://bitbucket.org/citymania/cmclient/commits/95a24a8908c8c28b2425ed409a9b3b13584fd77b 09:18:05 <_dp_> though now that I look at it I like github split veiw more 09:19:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 09:19:13 * LordAro tries something 09:19:50 <LordAro> https://gist.github.com/LordAro/9537e8017d5a48929ed41cc00ac124a9/revisions 09:19:51 <andythenorth> Wolf01: does your suggestion aid this? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1738 09:20:24 <andythenorth> can I close 1738 as duplicate now? 09:20:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 09:20:33 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I use hotkeys for fast switching 09:20:57 <LordAro> Alberth: _dp_: it'd now be fairly trivial to get rid of Industry::prod_level as well 09:21:19 <Wolf01> I don't remember if there's a hotkey to increase and decrease the area size 09:21:40 <andythenorth> Wolf01: does it also address any of this wish list? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6118 09:21:48 <andythenorth> multi-item wish-list tickets always need to die :P 09:21:49 <_dp_> ... ok, mb I don't like github one more xD 09:22:09 <Wolf01> andythenorth: yes, it addresses "2" 09:22:15 <andythenorth> thanks 09:22:57 <Wolf01> Oh wait 09:23:16 <Wolf01> Isn't that already implemented? 09:23:28 <LordAro> _dp_: hehe 09:23:28 <Wolf01> Uhm, no 09:23:42 <Wolf01> I used the level land :P 09:24:19 <Wolf01> BTW, yes, could be easily addressed 09:27:42 <Wolf01> Does TTDP works on Win10? I would like to try and see how the SE worked there 09:28:04 <andythenorth> virtualbox :P 09:28:05 <andythenorth> if not 09:28:25 <andythenorth> 474 issues :) 09:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> use dosbox? 09:28:38 <andythenorth> if only $some people would stop adding new issues ;) 09:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> although, who really has the dos version of ttd? 09:29:05 <Wolf01> I warned you yesterday I wouldn't stop to add new issues XD 09:29:24 <andythenorth> this is a bug? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6583 09:30:01 <Wolf01> Time to get my old TTDx game disk 09:30:04 <LordAro> andythenorth: i think they're talking about how it "bounces" 09:30:19 <andythenorth> is it actually broken, or just weird? :P 09:30:28 <andythenorth> yeah it’s probably a bug eh 09:31:21 <andythenorth> _dp_: you want this one closed? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6284 09:32:35 <LordAro> andythenorth: it's enough of a bug that adf thought it was worth patching :p 09:32:39 <andythenorth> isn’t it 09:32:49 <andythenorth> hmm 6284 - not a current goal 09:32:53 <andythenorth> goals are pretty clear 09:33:03 <andythenorth> cleaning up alleged MP exploits is pretty definitely not one 09:33:25 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#What_are_the_goals_of_the_offical_branch.3F 09:33:36 <_dp_> andythenorth, idk, let me thing a bit 09:33:44 <andythenorth> I am about to close it 09:33:55 <_dp_> andythenorth, I'm fine with leaving things as they are but it may be a valid request 09:33:58 <andythenorth> closing alleged exploits always pisses off as many people as it pleases 09:34:27 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 09:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i think that request is invalid 09:34:53 <Wolf01> Ok, win x64 doesn't have anymore wow16, so I can't straignt install TTDx, dosbox might help 09:35:16 <andythenorth> the pattern of ‘change established behaviour because some limited number of people running goal servers don’t like it' 09:35:21 <andythenorth> is not a winning strategy 09:35:26 <LordAro> think they removed that in win8 09:35:37 <Wolf01> They removed that with x64 09:35:50 <Wolf01> Even on XP 09:37:17 <andythenorth> FWIW, I don’t want station signs moving around 09:37:19 <andythenorth> and I closed it 09:37:29 <_dp_> andythenorth, I'd say 6284 raises up a valid problem but no solution 09:37:37 <Wolf01> Oh, I already had some D-Fend config for TTDx 09:37:43 <_dp_> andythenorth, just calling UpdateStationSignCoord will do nearly nothing 09:37:53 <andythenorth> 7 year old is now having a one-sided conversation with Convoy AI :P 09:38:03 <andythenorth> he is critiquing AI choices :P 09:39:05 <Alberth> :) 09:39:27 <LordAro> andythenorth: i did always find it a bit odd that the sign only moved when deleting bits of the station, rather than adding to it 09:39:34 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 09:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be that the sign never moved 09:40:09 <_dp_> one possible solution mb to find closest parts of two stations and use distance between them in payment calculations 09:40:10 <andythenorth> +1 LordAro….but of the things we could spend time on :) 09:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> then it was changed so the sign would be moved if it ended up outside of the station 09:40:24 * andythenorth would choose ones that are fun 09:40:44 <andythenorth> my goal here is ‘make developing great again' 09:44:12 <V453000> u wot m8 09:44:51 <andythenorth> vote for me 09:45:12 <andythenorth> this: why? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5658 09:45:16 <andythenorth> nobody needs to do that 09:46:36 <Wolf01> Remove minimap 09:46:45 <andythenorth> NoMiniMap 09:46:48 <andythenorth> NoWolf01 09:47:01 * andythenorth considered it briefly 09:47:07 <Wolf01> Main viewport becomes minimap when unzoomed 09:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause> is there no button to focus the minimap on the current viewport? 09:47:23 <andythenorth> not afaik 09:47:26 <_dp_> isn't there an easy way to do it already? 09:47:28 <andythenorth> that would actually be super useful 09:47:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: add an issue for that :D 09:48:04 <Wolf01> The 2nd button? 09:48:32 <_dp_> minimap is good for jumping around, zooming viewports isn't quite the same 09:48:33 <LordAro> needs more hyper key 09:48:52 <Wolf01> Tooltip says "centre the smallmap in the current location" 09:49:01 <Wolf01> *position 09:49:05 <andythenorth> also 5658, just click the eye icon 09:49:41 <andythenorth> hmm, no it does have to be paused for that to work 09:49:42 <andythenorth> NFI then 09:50:11 <V453000> hm shit my super smart system of automatically detecting index brightness doesn't work for shit :D 09:50:14 <V453000> need to do it all manually 09:51:05 <Wolf01> Oooooh the TTDx installer 09:51:18 <andythenorth> V453000: why not working? 09:52:12 * andythenorth still wonders why it matters where a vehicle is on minimap 09:52:45 <_dp_> 5658 is funny. minimap centers if same location is requested 09:53:05 <_dp_> so if you doubleclick fast enough on moving vehicle it centers xD 09:53:06 <andythenorth> I would like to just be able to press the hotkey again to center minimap (mine is ‘m’) 09:53:24 <andythenorth> that would actually be super not-shit 09:53:55 <_dp_> andythenorth, actually just hotkey to open it is enough 09:54:05 <_dp_> andythenorth, it centers on viewport when opened 09:54:34 *** supermop has joined #openttd 09:54:43 <andythenorth> yeah, but I have to use ‘del’ to close all windows, then press ‘m’ again 09:54:49 <andythenorth> that’s actually my serious workaround 09:55:01 <V453000> andythenorth: because many indexes have rather bright colours at the 2nd darkest index already etc 09:55:03 <_dp_> still good enough for that bug as you already have 2 options 09:55:36 <V453000> plus all the wtf colours like 3-index range of yellow, super bright green or cyan being reversed in order of darkness :D 09:55:39 <V453000> etc 09:55:42 <_dp_> andythenorth, I don't have map key binded, does it not close minimap if it's already open? 09:56:02 <_dp_> andythenorth, probably should if it doesn't 09:56:10 <andythenorth> nah it doesn’t toggle it 09:59:44 <andythenorth> this one’s a patch? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5326 09:59:49 <andythenorth> has a patch attached :P 10:02:38 *** supermop has quit IRC 10:04:19 <andythenorth> this kind of just annoys me https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5087 10:04:40 <andythenorth> vague request, links me to a 2 page thread of people arguing about how to build multiple unit trains in newgrf 10:04:50 <andythenorth> arguing / debating /s 10:05:00 <andythenorth> wtf is it supposed to be 10:05:32 * andythenorth pasted a vanilla reply on and closed it 10:05:36 <andythenorth> no gain by being grumpy :) 10:08:11 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 10:08:54 <andythenorth> ha, ES should also get control of inflation https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4799 10:09:08 <andythenorth> globally though, not per town :P 10:11:08 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 10:14:45 <Alberth> inflation with equally increasing costs and profits is useless, just turn it off then 10:15:22 <andythenorth> seems daft 10:15:45 <andythenorth> why not have date-based variation of base costs? 10:15:52 <andythenorth> so recessions, booms etc 10:16:02 <andythenorth> inflation seems a waste of time to me 10:16:14 <andythenorth> I’d just rm it, and migrate savegames 10:16:17 *** ic111 has quit IRC 10:17:05 <andythenorth> 467 issues 10:17:23 * _dp_ never understood inflation 10:18:04 <_dp_> though I don't play more than 5-15 years usually 10:18:16 <andythenorth> aren’t ping times going to be highly variable? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4669 10:18:24 <andythenorth> kind of useless 10:18:36 <LordAro> not generally 10:18:44 <LordAro> could take some sort of rolling average 10:19:26 <andythenorth> also are we going to send pings from the client to hundreds of servers? 10:19:34 <andythenorth> seems like a ping-flood :P 10:19:43 <_dp_> I think I've never seen a server that is unblayble due to ping 10:19:57 <Wolf01> Do you want one? 10:20:07 <_dp_> Wolf01, xD 10:20:12 <Wolf01> Just let me start mine XD 10:20:47 <_dp_> andythenorth, iirc it already pings all servers 10:21:43 *** supermop_home_ has joined #openttd 10:22:46 <_dp_> well, techically it's not a ping but udp request but whatever 10:22:48 <Wolf01> _dp_: ...unblayble... <- Oh, I noticed you have bdpq problems too, I wrote p in place of b for 3 times today (luckily I noticed them before sending) XD 10:23:14 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 10:23:25 <_dp_> Wolf01, i noticed I have a lot of problems with typos xD 10:23:39 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 10:24:07 <Wolf01> My fingers usually forget the "h", some days ago I wrote "i" in place of "y" everywhere 10:25:26 <_dp_> My weirdest typo is that I sometimes write "your" instead of "our" 10:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> recently i find myself typing a lot of "sounds" in the wrong way 10:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't come up with an example right now 10:26:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but if you said it outloud, it would sound the same, but written down it's complete jibberish 10:26:58 <LordAro> andythenorth: many other game lobbys have the feature, it can't be that difficult to achieve 10:27:01 <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 10:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: wrt ping time, only use the timing of the initial response packet, don't constantly update it? 10:29:00 <Eddi|zuHause> would put no additional stress on the servers, because that packet is sent anyways 10:29:44 *** supermop_home_ has quit IRC 10:31:34 <_dp_> nice and relatively easy feature imo but hardly useful 10:31:42 <_dp_> but I may be too spoiled by a good internet :) 10:31:43 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 10:42:34 *** Pikka has joined #openttd 10:43:13 <Pikka> hi 10:43:29 <Wolf01> o/ 10:51:30 <Alberth> andythenorth: is it correct that bulk terminal does not show "(supplied)" but does show "Gung ho" instead? 10:51:36 <andythenorth> yes 10:51:40 <andythenorth> bit weird though eh? 10:51:45 <Alberth> it is 10:51:54 <andythenorth> port-type industries are quite non-standard 10:52:26 <andythenorth> mechanic seems to work, but words…dunno 10:53:04 <Alberth> words sometimes work, sometimes they don't 10:53:38 <andythenorth> :o 10:53:42 <andythenorth> is pikka bob 10:53:49 <Pikka> si 10:54:09 <Pikka> someone's been closing all my flysprays 10:54:29 <andythenorth> isn’t it 10:54:33 <andythenorth> got any more? o_O 10:54:44 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=&project=1&search_name=&type%5B%5D=&sev%5B%5D=&pri%5B%5D=&due%5B%5D=&reported%5B%5D=&cat%5B%5D=&status%5B%5D=open&percent%5B%5D=&opened=pikka&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&do=index 10:54:46 <Pikka> I don't know, haven't checked 10:55:37 <Pikka> there's some good ones there 10:55:54 *** mescalito has joined #openttd 11:01:27 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 11:01:47 <ic111> Does anyone know, wether the days_in_transit (in cargo packets) are actually in unit "2.5 days" like the comment of CargoPacket::DaysInTransit() states? 11:02:34 <ic111> I ask, because I started inspecting why I earn a surprisingly low amount of money with transporting passengers sometimes 11:02:57 <andythenorth> Pikka: so can you get elected as a federal politician? o_O 11:03:36 <ic111> So I added a logger to PayFinalDelivery, PayTransfer, and AgeCargo 11:03:50 <_dp_> ic111, sounds likely but not sure 11:04:49 <ic111> ... and in a small test game starting at 1st January 1905, my train loaded around 3rd January, and unloaded 19th January, and the days_in_transit variable contained the value 20! 11:05:30 <_dp_> ic111, may also be some accumulated value for all cargo packets 11:05:42 <Wolf01> Days in transit iirc is from when they appear at station 11:05:57 <ic111> Yes, I am aware of that 11:06:01 <Wolf01> It's the life of the cargo packet 11:06:35 <ic111> As I have said, the game started at 1st January, so at 19th January, following the comment, no cargo packet can have a value > 19 / 2.5 = 7 or 8 11:06:54 <_dp_> it's only icreased when cargo is in train, I definitely checked that recently 11:07:30 <_dp_> I guess it's easier to just ask grep :p 11:08:09 <ic111> Yes, but my logging output looks like it´s increased much more often than the comment indicates. 11:09:29 <_dp_> ic111, are you sure you're not confusing days_in_transit and cargo_days_in_transit? 11:12:20 <ic111> cargopacket.h has an implementation for DaysInTransit(), implemented as "return this->days_in_transit;". I output cp->DaysInTransit(). So, not impossible that I confuse something, but currently I don´t see a mistake in my logging. 11:12:49 <_dp_> I see... 11:12:56 <_dp_> do you use any newgrfs? 11:13:03 <ic111> Yes 11:13:28 <V453000> hi Pikka :) 11:13:30 <_dp_> looks like vehicle newgrf can speed up cargo aging as well 11:13:55 <ic111> Ah, ok. Then I indeed should test this without NewGRF 11:14:02 <ic111> ... and maybe that comment is misleading 11:16:05 <andythenorth> vehicle newgrf can control decay rate 11:16:06 <andythenorth> fwiw 11:17:16 <V453000> nuts does :P 11:18:52 <_dp_> cat it change it dynamically?) 11:18:58 <_dp_> cat lol 11:19:00 <_dp_> *can 11:19:05 <Wolf01> Cats already do that 11:19:10 <Wolf01> *always 11:19:16 <Wolf01> Fuck typo 11:19:17 <Wolf01> XD 11:19:33 *** orudge` has quit IRC 11:20:08 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 11:20:08 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 11:20:09 <_dp_> looks like it can't, so no reducing decay in snow :( 11:21:19 <ic111> Yes, it was the NewGRF 11:21:55 <ic111> Seems that those early SBB set vehicles increase cargo aging by (in my example) a factor three 11:22:35 <ic111> ... now at least I know why earning money with a larger passenger network is so difficult with those vehicles, something which I never understood so far 11:23:17 <andythenorth> there is no indication to player about decay rates 11:23:23 <andythenorth> nor loading speed 11:23:30 <Wolf01> BAD feature 11:23:41 * andythenorth thinks vehicle window should show those somehow 11:23:48 <andythenorth> or players should all use text cb :P 11:23:59 <Wolf01> Maybe cargo payment rate graph window too 11:25:34 <_dp_> Wolf01, rate graph doesn't know about vehicles 11:25:44 <Wolf01> Put rate graph in vehicles 11:25:45 <_dp_> this thing potentially could though https://citymania.org/tools/profit 11:26:55 <V453000> yeah loading speed is good to know 11:27:07 <V453000> all of nuts vehicles add that in text cb manually ._. 11:27:32 <_dp_> for a single wagon it's better to show it as a value 11:27:39 <_dp_> graphs make more sense for a whole train 11:27:49 <_dp_> not so easy to calculate though 11:28:48 <ic111> ... although I don´t understand the idea behind that - what´s the idea behind faster cargo aging (specifically?) in a situation where vehicles are slow, and need more time for going from A to B, regardless how efficient you build your network? 11:29:50 <andythenorth> nice chart _dp_ 11:29:55 <V453000> it's dumb really ic111 11:29:58 <andythenorth> what chart library? o_O 11:30:05 <V453000> nuts tries to simulate "losing cargo" by that, though it's pointless 11:30:09 <_dp_> people get sick faster in old vehicles :) 11:30:13 <V453000> yeah chart is nice 11:30:14 <andythenorth> it’s realisms 11:30:25 * andythenorth makes some vehicles age cargo faster 11:30:59 <Wolf01> andythenorth: highcharts 11:31:59 <andythenorth> hmm costs money eh 11:32:01 <andythenorth> lots 11:32:50 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 11:32:55 <_dp_> yeah, for non-commercial it's the best library I know 11:32:59 <ic111> Yes, the idea that people get sick (or rather bored, or whatever you want to call it) faster in old wagons is valid. 11:33:09 <andythenorth> err…per developer licensing :| 11:33:10 <andythenorth> wtf 11:33:11 <andythenorth> nvm 11:33:19 <andythenorth> back to open source charting for andythenorth 11:33:20 <ic111> And I admit, that I use the date cheat, to build a network with those old vehicles 11:34:00 <ic111> But, nevertheless, it blocks longer distance trains with those vehicles 11:34:30 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 11:34:38 <ic111> Maybe time for the next private sourcecode hack ;-) 11:35:01 <_dp_> openttd doesn't seem to be a good economy simulator anyway 11:35:09 <V453000> ^ 11:35:19 <_dp_> just make good moneyline and do whatever you want afterwards) 11:35:31 <ic111> Indeed 11:36:16 <ic111> It was just a new expericence, that with a large passenger networks, that transports quite a lot of passengers, earning money became so difficult. 11:37:06 <V453000> well being able to transport furhter more efficiently isn't that much of a bad thing, gives some more progression 11:37:14 <V453000> but yeah, money in openttd :) 11:37:24 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 11:39:56 <_dp_> btw, speaking of increased passenger "aging", why do they even "age" in a first place? :) 11:40:20 <Wolf01> Some cargo could rot 11:40:22 <V453000> I think the idea was to motivate an efficient network which gets there quick 11:40:34 <V453000> and again progression with faster engines 11:40:39 <ic111> Income per distance unit depends on the time spent for that distance 11:40:56 <_dp_> there should probably be some average travel speed expectancy for passengers that increase with time 11:41:01 <_dp_> but eh, NoEconomy :p 11:41:08 <Flygon> I do kinda wish Passengers had a different style of economy. 11:41:14 <Flygon> That encouraged using smaller capacity carriages. 11:41:36 <Flygon> ie. high quality carriages for long distance journeys, with small capacities, will generate a lot of profit. 11:41:43 <Flygon> But will be terrible for profit short distance. 11:41:43 <ic111> And implementors of CargoDist chose to not calculating this by storing the timestamp when the cargo entered the vehicle, but by aging cargo periodically. 11:45:20 <ic111> Yes, it would be quite good if the expectation "what´s an average travel speed" would depend on the available vehicles 11:45:29 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 11:51:05 <Wolf01> Flygon: that's what tourists are for, they should pay more to travel more, like a logarithmic function :P 11:51:58 <Flygon> :P That's it's own Cargo Class. 11:52:00 <andythenorth> Flygon: I’m going to try two types of carriage in Iron Horse 11:52:05 <Flygon> American Tourists are a sub-class. 11:52:06 <andythenorth> it works for bus/coach in Road Hog 11:54:54 <Wolf01> Add taxis 11:55:46 <andythenorth> this https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4313 11:55:54 <andythenorth> Tropic map gen is junk 11:56:04 <andythenorth> but that issue is not getting it fixed 12:03:09 <andythenorth> LordAro: a classic :D https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3997 12:03:11 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 12:03:15 <Wolf01> Tropic gen is broken, yes 12:03:44 <Wolf01> Open a task 12:03:55 <LordAro> andythenorth: defo still valid 12:04:20 <andythenorth> Wolf01: would you review my tropic patch? o_O 12:04:49 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=74647&hilit=tropic 12:04:50 <Wolf01> Yes, I could do it 12:05:05 <_dp_> does anyone know if it's even worth to constatly call fontconfig's FcFini to save up some memory? 12:05:07 <_dp_> because time-wise it definitely doesn't 12:05:08 <_dp_> actually I couldn't even confirm there is any memory gain by doing it 12:05:09 <_dp_> and every FcInit takes about 2 seconds on my pc 12:05:10 <_dp_> I could probably patch it not to reinitialize fontconfig 12 times on every load but it somewhat feels that just keeping it initialized constantly would be even better. 12:07:02 <LordAro> _dp_: doesn't FcInit do that anyway? not like it returns anything 12:07:25 <_dp_> damn, I think i jinxed my internet :( 12:10:48 <Wolf01> andythenorth: wtf you coded it like that? :D 12:11:12 <andythenorth> you think I should apply DRY? o_O 12:11:15 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 12:11:17 <andythenorth> rather than copy-paste? o_O 12:11:46 <Wolf01> No, just remove the code from the case and move the tropic case up with temperate and toyland 12:11:52 <andythenorth> yes 12:11:54 <andythenorth> DRY :) 12:12:13 <andythenorth> I had a problem with that idea 12:12:22 <andythenorth> …why bother checking cases at all? :P 12:12:28 <andythenorth> just use one terrain generator 12:13:03 <Wolf01> Mmmh, it works better for the terrain, but still broken as fuck 12:13:58 * andythenorth should try the temperate generator for arctic too 12:13:59 * andythenorth tests that 12:14:19 <V453000> arctic is nice 12:14:25 <V453000> tropic has hard time making hills 12:14:50 <andythenorth> ‘hard’ ? 12:14:53 <andythenorth> it’s totally fucked :) 12:14:56 <V453000> :) 12:15:01 <andythenorth> it’s a disaster 12:15:17 <andythenorth> not fixing it is one of the few things that makes me sad about current OpenTTD dev :) 12:15:31 <andythenorth> everything else is pretty awesome 12:16:55 <Wolf01> andythenorth: https://gist.github.com/Wolfolo/c6d7476f8290be52bc7ac1073ae11ee6 ? 12:18:15 <andythenorth> how do I generate same seed? 12:18:21 * andythenorth comparing maps 12:19:10 <Wolf01> http://imgur.com/a/0ZwXU 12:19:57 <LordAro> i'm gonna be miserable now. until we can actually get a dev to look at this stuff, say yes, and merge it; or give someone else commit rights, this is all pointless 12:20:07 <Wolf01> Seed is 789214921 12:20:09 <andythenorth> more mountains Wolf01 ? 12:20:23 <andythenorth> LordAro: we can fork! 12:20:26 * andythenorth isn’t serious 12:20:27 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 12:20:33 <andythenorth> but we could have a github fork 12:20:38 <andythenorth> with feature branches 12:20:38 <_dp_> LordAro, what do you mean? FcInit doesn't reitialize when called in succession. but openttd also calls FcFini all the time 12:20:41 <andythenorth> grouped around topics 12:20:59 <Wolf01> http://imgur.com/a/0ZwXU <- added pic with settings 12:21:01 <andythenorth> i.e. SE topic 12:21:05 <LordAro> _dp_: are we talking about the same thing? afaict, FcInit only needs to be called once per program run 12:21:06 <andythenorth> map gen topic 12:21:10 <andythenorth> etc 12:21:58 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 12:22:02 <_dp_> LordAro, yeah, but it doesn't matter how many times it is called unless there is a FcFini in between them 12:22:09 <andythenorth> I’m totally not convinced that the sub-arctic map gen is doing anything worth having 12:22:25 <andythenorth> the higher mountains are better achieved by selecting 'alpinist' 12:23:52 <LordAro> oh, right 12:24:01 <Pikka> andythenorth, no I can't. Although I've had several people in the last couple of weeks tell me I should be running at state level 12:24:05 <LordAro> i've been misreading FcFini as FcInit this whole time 12:24:30 <Wolf01> andythenorth: updated imgur with a bigger map 12:25:12 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 12:25:31 <andythenorth> Wolf01: so what changes then? :) 12:25:39 <andythenorth> I can read the gist, but what is it doing now? 12:25:45 <LordAro> _dp_: yeah, call FcInit/FcFini in some global static data structure and be done with it 12:26:04 <Wolf01> andythenorth: First 4 levels are more flat 12:26:36 <andythenorth> does it still flatten mountains? 12:28:30 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 12:28:32 <Wolf01> Updated imgur again 12:28:33 <_dp_> LordAro, or just never call FcFini 12:28:57 <LordAro> _dp_: it wouldn't be good form to not cleanup after ourselves 12:29:23 <andythenorth> NoTerrain 12:29:26 <andythenorth> script it :P 12:29:36 <_dp_> LordAro, but main question here is whether is it necessary to do FcFini before entering the game 12:29:44 <andythenorth> let people write their own terrain manglers 12:29:53 <andythenorth> put em on bananaramas 12:30:05 <LordAro> probably not 12:30:09 <_dp_> LordAro, theoretically it can save up some memory by the expence of reintializing fontconfig when it's going to be needed again 12:30:14 <andythenorth> probably not even the hardest mod, terrain mangling 12:30:17 <LordAro> andythenorth: like i said, NoOTTD 12:30:18 <andythenorth> it’s only maths, no vars 12:30:26 <andythenorth> LordAro: it’s a catchy phrase 12:30:33 <LordAro> NoooTTD 12:30:39 <andythenorth> NooTTD 12:30:48 <_dp_> MooTTD 12:30:48 <Wolf01> Noot 12:30:49 <LordAro> whatever happened to YA<thing> 12:30:50 <andythenorth> said ‘newTTD' 12:30:58 <andythenorth> YA<thing> is now a proven bad joke 12:31:09 <LordAro> bad jokes can still be funny 12:31:10 <Wolf01> I'll edit a seed box in the new landscape on SE 12:31:15 <andythenorth> should have been YA<thing>deleting<oldthing> 12:32:14 <andythenorth> Terrain is just a tile loop? 12:32:26 <andythenorth> do it in some functional programming language :D 12:32:30 <andythenorth> for extra cool points :P 12:32:37 <andythenorth> Haskell? 12:33:26 <Wolf01> Create a scenario via GS 12:34:52 <_dp_> LordAro, it's kind of hard to move fonconfig initialization to global because it's stateless and you never know if it going to be needed or whether it was initialized 12:34:58 <andythenorth> eh? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3581 12:35:10 <andythenorth> ^ sounds like he’d need a very specific network to get that to work ever 12:35:35 <_dp_> LordAro, solvable with extra bool though 12:35:54 <andythenorth> is there anyone here who uses timetables properly? 12:36:16 <Wolf01> Timetables are way too obscure to be used properly 12:36:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Eh, it makes sense, that's how real railways work :P 12:36:53 <LordAro> _dp_: hrm 12:36:56 <FLHerne> Why would you manually skip a station (without changing the TT) if not to avoid delays? 12:37:14 <FLHerne> I'm not convinced it's possible to use timetables "properly" 12:37:37 <Wolf01> I'm not convinced a vehicle in R-world skips stations 12:37:59 <ic111> I rewrote timetables here https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=63721 (I know it´s big...) 12:38:02 <andythenorth> I can’t comment on timetable requests, because I have zero use for a broken feature 12:38:05 <andythenorth> but someone ought to 12:38:15 <FLHerne> They're far too complicated for general top-down management, but the smaller details like start dates and that bug are almost designed to make micromanagement impractical 12:38:33 <FLHerne> Wolf01: The trains here certainly do 12:38:46 <andythenorth> here are the requests I’ve found so far: https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=timetable%3A&project=1&search_name=&type%5B%5D=2&sev%5B%5D=&pri%5B%5D=2&due%5B%5D=&reported%5B%5D=&cat%5B%5D=&status%5B%5D=open&percent%5B%5D=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&do=index 12:39:21 *** Pikka has quit IRC 12:39:46 <Wolf01> FLHerne: Trains here don't even arrive when they are late, and when they arrive they stop at the station because passengers already found another way to get to destination (like the next train) 12:39:56 <LordAro> ah, good ol' FS search urls 12:40:11 <ic111> I played with the native timetables in exactly one game - then I realized that I needed an external spreadsheet to keep track about them, and rewrote from scratch... 12:40:14 <FLHerne> Wolf01: If they leave Kings Cross late, they often skip some/all the stops before Stevenage (I think to make sure they cross the bottleneck at Welwyn in their booked slot) 12:40:57 <Wolf01> Maybe your lines are better organized 12:41:53 <Wolf01> Here you have 1 train every 40 minutes (average), so if one gets >40' late, then you just take the next one and the late one stops at the first big station 12:42:11 <FLHerne> Well, that's what the buses do 12:42:33 <FLHerne> The ECML is a bit busier than that :P 12:42:40 <andythenorth> FLHerne: what order should it skip? o_O 12:42:52 <andythenorth> what if it’s a servicing order, and it breaks down? 12:43:06 <andythenorth> what if cdist needs the order to calculate link stats? 12:43:27 <andythenorth> what if it’s a conditional order and the vehicle gets stuck in a loop? 12:43:39 <andythenorth> ok ‘what if’ is silly :) 12:43:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's not what the bug asks for 12:44:19 * andythenorth reads again 12:44:19 <andythenorth> ok 12:44:29 <andythenorth> so that one’s valid? 12:44:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The problem is that if you manually skip an order, it also skips the timetabled time for that order 12:44:39 <andythenorth> sounds a bit crap 12:44:43 <andythenorth> is it a bug? 12:44:49 <FLHerne> Which is completely insane 12:44:52 <FLHerne> Who knows? :P 12:45:15 <FLHerne> I mean, it makes no sense and helps make timetables impossible to manage 12:45:26 <FLHerne> But that's every aspect of the timetable system 12:45:54 <ic111> IMHO, the design flaw in the present system is that you configure a relative time ("travel 6 days") at all 12:46:06 <ic111> IMHO, timetables need to be specified in an absolute manner 12:46:16 <ic111> E.g., depart "3rd August 1925" 12:47:10 <ic111> Then the next order can specify "Arrive 17th August, Depart 21st August", and so on... 12:47:34 * andythenorth reading the TIP thread 12:47:35 <_dp_> LordAro, I genuinely hate adding global variables :p 12:47:37 <ic111> And once the last order is done, you increase all dates by a given timetable length, and start at the beginning 12:48:29 <andythenorth> I’ve only scan read, but it makes more sense than ‘travel n days' 12:48:39 <andythenorth> I never understood that 12:48:45 <andythenorth> vehicle has a speed 12:48:46 <LordAro> _dp_: i mean, you're not wrong 12:49:06 <andythenorth> with timetables, if a vehicle travels 5 days, but needs 10 to do the route, wtf happens? 12:49:09 <andythenorth> does it just stop>? 12:49:12 <andythenorth> seems fucked :) 12:49:23 <FLHerne> ic111: How does your patch do old-game compatibility? Does it? 12:49:33 <andythenorth> specifying how many days a vehicle takes violates s=d/t physics 12:49:39 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It just gets increasingly late 12:49:57 <andythenorth> I have had timetables explained to me about 5 times 12:49:59 <ic111> I´ve need to look into the code myself ;-) (implemented some years ago already...) 12:50:13 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You can specify buffer time at key points to counteract that (which is why drive-in stops are useful) 12:50:17 <andythenorth> they conceptually make absolutely no sense 12:50:22 <andythenorth> vehicles have a speed 12:50:29 <andythenorth> does the timetable slow the vehicle down>? 12:50:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No 12:50:48 <andythenorth> ok, so the concept is just a lie :) 12:51:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If the vehicle arrives earlier than it was supposed to, it waits at that station until it's time to leave 12:51:18 * andythenorth isn’t actually being difficult here, I really don’t understand timetables at all 12:51:23 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If it arrives late, it leaves as soon as possible 12:51:31 <andythenorth> but after loading? 12:51:34 <andythenorth> or without loading? 12:51:37 <FLHerne> Yes 12:51:51 <FLHerne> With whatever the orders say 12:51:56 <andythenorth> what’s the objective? 12:52:04 <andythenorth> is it modelling realism? 12:52:16 <andythenorth> there are people out there with the National Rail website? 12:52:18 <FLHerne> Essentially, the only behaviour of timetables is to force vehicles to wait at stations for longer than they normally would 12:52:22 <ic111> The objective is that you can make your vehicle pass certain stations etc. at defined dates. 12:52:36 <ic111> E.g., I can make a long distance train overtake a short distance train at a defined station 12:52:56 <FLHerne> More straightforwardly, it's the only in-game way to prevent vehicles bunching up 12:53:05 <andythenorth> why don’t people just use this instead? http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/ 12:53:09 <andythenorth> if they want to track trains 12:53:22 <FLHerne> (because you can enforce a fixed round-trip time, and then set start dates at fractions of that time) 12:53:33 <ic111> Or I can make two trains meet at a station at a defined date 12:53:33 <ic111> where they can exchange passengers 12:53:37 <ic111> Plus I can make vehicles travel in a defined interval, i.e. one train every two or four months, instead of a random order 12:53:44 <andythenorth> oh so you could have a train meet a ferry? 12:53:49 <ic111> yes 12:54:11 <andythenorth> so you could synchronise feeders? 12:54:15 <FLHerne> Yes 12:54:16 <ic111> yes 12:54:38 <andythenorth> and doing that with conditional orders would be crap 12:54:44 <FLHerne> But at the moment, they're such a complete pain to set up that even I don't bother usually :-/ 12:54:45 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 12:54:49 <andythenorth> also defining some kind of ‘routes’ system would be crap 12:54:51 <LordAro> ic111: hrm, i cannot get 270 to apply 12:55:33 <andythenorth> it’s the ‘travel’ thing that puts me right off 12:55:55 <FLHerne> Yeah, ic111's thing is vastly better 12:56:11 <ic111> did you use the version 20 attached to the first post? 12:56:18 <LordAro> yeah 12:56:38 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 12:56:39 <ic111> Hm, I last checked in April that it applies against trunk 12:56:48 <andythenorth> NoTimetables 12:57:00 <LordAro> (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ 12:57:02 <ic111> So maybe a change in trunk since then, I´d have to look at it 12:57:03 <LordAro> wait, i misread 12:57:07 <andythenorth> nice glyphs 12:57:22 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 12:57:22 <LordAro> ic111: oh, lol 12:57:32 <LordAro> it was the last commit that broke it 12:57:37 <LordAro> my commit :) 12:57:42 <LordAro> frosch123: quak 12:57:47 <andythenorth> quak 12:58:00 <frosch123> hoi 12:58:51 <ic111> andythenorth: I removed the routes in a later version 12:59:26 <andythenorth> ic111 I’d offer to test it, it looks better, but honestly I am the wrong person to give opinions on timetables :) 13:00:16 <andythenorth> :o https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4309 13:00:19 <andythenorth> this is news to me 13:00:22 <ic111> Thank you, maybe a person that never dealt with timetables before is not that bad at all... 13:01:01 <andythenorth> FIRS doesn’t define any tile output 13:01:05 <andythenorth> how come it works? 13:01:23 <ic111> Note: I will be totally offline Sunday to Tuesday or Wednesday, so if you ask some question etc. and I don´t answer, this is the reason 13:02:18 <andythenorth> k 13:04:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is no tile output, that's what the task asks about 13:04:57 <andythenorth> ah 13:05:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: you disabled tile input because it sucks, the task asks to make output as bad as input 13:05:40 <andythenorth> thanks 13:05:47 <andythenorth> I’ll leave it 13:06:44 <andythenorth> _dp_ we talked about this one I think, did we conclude anything? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4158 13:07:18 <ic111> andythenorth: Just one hint: I implemented specifying timetable lengths etc. in Days, Months, or Years, but experience shows, that you usually want to specify it in Months. Days are useful if you really need a train every 15 days (but have the problem that months have variable length, which the Month variant shadows). 13:07:46 <andythenorth> does this mean I can deliver FIRS supplies guaranteed once per month? o_O 13:07:57 <ic111> yes 13:08:44 <ic111> If a timetable has e.g. length 4 months, and you have an order "Depart 15 January", then the next departure will be "15th May", regardless of the month length in between. 13:11:46 <_dp_> lagging heavily here, sorry 13:12:50 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 13:20:21 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd 13:23:30 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I am re-prioritising feature requests: high -> current goals; low -> maybe a goal in future 13:23:40 <andythenorth> is SE stuff high or low? 13:23:42 <andythenorth> o_O 13:23:52 <LordAro> medium 13:23:54 <LordAro> :p 13:23:57 <andythenorth> nah 13:24:03 <andythenorth> LordAro is a troll :) 13:24:57 <LordAro> i try my best :) 13:25:31 <_dp_> andythenorth, what conclusion do you want? it useful feature imo, but not an easy one and nobody seems to be interested in implementing it. 13:25:41 <_dp_> andythenorth, also I'm not very interested in implementing it since I'm already pretty close to having similar stuff on citymania (which is a pile of hacks ofc so not reusable sadly). 13:25:57 <LordAro> i don't think you can classify things based on how interested people are in implementing it 13:26:13 <andythenorth> orly? :) 13:28:26 <andythenorth> _dp_ thanks :) 13:29:22 <Wolf01> andythenorth: roadmap 13:29:47 <andythenorth> so it’s a goal? 13:31:01 <Wolf01> We don't have a roadmap since 1.3 13:31:19 <ic111> Beside the aforementioned reject in patch 270 (which has a quite trivial fix) the timetables patch applies for me. 13:31:29 <andythenorth> roadmaps are bollocks imho :) 13:31:38 <LordAro> ic111: i've had 3/4 so far 13:31:43 <andythenorth> except as far as setting ‘ current goals' 13:31:43 <LordAro> none are difficult to fix 13:31:57 <LordAro> it might be git being more picky 13:32:37 <ic111> Conversion of old timetable information indeed isn´t done, patch 280 does something with the start dates and lengths, but zeros the arrivals and departures out. 13:32:43 <andythenorth> I can’t adjust FS, probably wise 13:32:52 <ic111> What do you mean with "3/4"? 13:32:59 <LordAro> 3 or 4 conflicts 13:33:02 <andythenorth> but I would categorise things ‘interesting’, ‘might be interesting later’, ‘dull’ 13:33:07 <ic111> Huh? 13:34:08 <ic111> I downloaded trunk just a moment ago, applied the stip_v20.zip, and all I got was this conflict in 270, where you did something in a code block my patch removes 13:34:22 <Wolf01> andythenorth: what are the current goals? 13:34:46 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#What_are_the_goals_of_the_offical_branch.3F 13:34:52 <LordAro> ic111: i'm using git am to (very slowly) apply the patch queue, all of other issues have been with the diff's "context", rather than the code itself 13:35:13 <andythenorth> the goals were set by the only person actively committing 13:35:16 <andythenorth> which seems fair tbh 13:35:22 <Wolf01> andythenorth: that are the game lifetime goals, not current ones 13:35:27 <andythenorth> yes 13:35:34 <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out current ones :) 13:35:39 <ic111> ok, I checked out using hg, and seems that it was more friendly against differences... 13:36:12 <andythenorth> current goals are likely to be both (a) things that devs with commit access support (b) things that interest people writing the patch 13:36:51 <andythenorth> SE is interesting, because it’s probably easy to get big UI wins with no worries about savegame, desync, NoGo, NoAI, newgrf etc 13:37:39 <_dp_> I'd it would be more benefitial to focus on small improvements rather than big rewrites for now. 13:37:56 <Wolf01> SE always got a background role 13:37:57 <_dp_> Unless there is someone who is ready to do such rewrites ;) 13:39:38 <andythenorth> also, if .scn format stays same 13:39:57 <andythenorth> we could get an official build of an SE fork, and players could try it as a binary 13:40:07 <andythenorth> whilst being able to use the results in any compatible ottd 13:41:20 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 13:42:18 <Wolf01> I think a current goal could be to focus on daylength, people really enjoy it much, I would too, and I think we can get some compromises 13:43:00 <andythenorth> I can’t see that getting into trunk tbh :) 13:43:19 <andythenorth> it’s probably confined to patchpacks 13:43:34 <Wolf01> Then everything is confined to patchpacks 13:44:35 <LordAro> in a perfect world, uncoupling how fast the date changes from the game's tick rate should be easy 13:44:37 <Wolf01> DL is not a big change, only scatters some multiplications around, the problem is to multiply the right things 13:44:42 <andythenorth> even just train prop 97 blocks DL https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Vehicles 13:45:00 <andythenorth> if you want to change that, you might likely need approval from MB and george 13:45:31 <andythenorth> I proposed before just lying about the date 13:45:38 <Wolf01> We could provide a different value for tick counter, accordingly to daylength 13:45:59 <andythenorth> but the train grfs are relying on ticks to do date-related things 13:46:03 <andythenorth> [maybe] 13:46:13 <andythenorth> DL pisses me off tbh :) 13:46:27 <andythenorth> nobody makes any sense about it so far 13:46:37 <andythenorth> if the only purpose is to display a different date 13:46:42 <andythenorth> why don’t we just lie about the date? 13:46:46 <Wolf01> Instead they should do date stuff related to date, not try to calculate the date 13:46:59 <andythenorth> instead of trying to change the fundamentals of many game loops and tick counters 13:47:28 <Wolf01> What if we need to change to another value of tick counter some day? 13:47:46 <LordAro> andythenorth: doing that effectively would be a worse hack, imo 13:48:08 <andythenorth> oh well :) 13:48:12 * andythenorth is out of ideas then 13:52:36 <ic111> DayLength: What I don´t understand is: You have the I would like to call it real-time-part of the game mechanics, i.e. how fast do trains move, how fast are passengers generated, and so on. 13:53:28 <ic111> This part - ok, in some respect I regard it as not 100 percent balanced - but beside this, this part is senseful as it is IMHO 13:53:39 <ic111> At least, it doesn´t need to be changed by a huge factor 13:53:42 <_dp_> DL seems so easy on outside, it's tempting to do a patch :) 13:54:18 <andythenorth> so many have 13:54:38 <andythenorth> :D 13:55:00 <ic111> So, concerning day length I would expect that one talks about (1) the long term game mechanics, e.g., how many years does the game spend, until the next engine becomes available 13:55:52 <ic111> and (2) maybe about pure GUI, e.g. display a time like "13:30" that approximately matches vehicle movement speed, instead of a date 13:56:12 <ic111> Now you tell me that many things are based on ticks, especially with NewGRFs. 13:57:11 <ic111> But for those things, that I called "real time part" above, if you just don´t change the speed of those ticks (relative to real world time) you shouldn´t need to change anything 13:57:12 <_dp_> ic111, for time to match speed there has to be some notion of distance in relation to real world :p 13:57:22 <ic111> yes, of course 13:57:36 <LordAro> ic111: https://github.com/LordAro/OpenTTD/commits/ic111-improvedtimetables for funsies 13:57:37 <_dp_> ic111, well, openttd has none afaik 13:58:38 <ic111> But well, a train traveling between two cities between 13:30 and 13:50 looks much more aligned with time, than a city traveling for 20 days. 13:58:44 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 13:58:58 <ic111> back to above... 14:00:34 * _dp_ lives in a country where travelling for days between cities is pretty common 14:00:38 <ic111> So I would expect that you would need to do something about things that happen on a long time scale (like new vehicles showing up), and on GUI. 14:01:09 <ic111> Now, given that, I don´t understand where those many places where factors would have to be adjusted are. 14:02:08 <andythenorth> search ‘tick’ in /src? o_O 14:02:17 <LordAro> lol 14:02:23 <Wolf01> _tick_counter 14:02:46 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 14:03:16 <_dp_> andythenorth, 1462 14:03:53 <andythenorth> probably fine 14:04:21 <LordAro> ic111: ooh, apparently i just broke it as well 14:04:28 <LordAro> game's completely locked up 14:04:38 <ic111> Yes, but if you just don´t touch the tick vs. real world time ratio, and just (more or less) add extra game years, e.g. not switch from 1910 to 1911, but from 1910 to 1910.A to 1910.B to 1910.C ... to 1911, how many of those occurrences persist? 14:05:22 <LordAro> impressively locked up, i had to kill -9 it 14:05:22 <andythenorth> ic111: are you proposing just lying about the date? o_O 14:06:38 <_dp_> to me lying about date sounds like changing amount of ticks per day 14:07:53 <_dp_> and if I were to write DL patch I'd go that route 14:08:14 <Wolf01> _dp_: yes, that is what I wanted to implement 14:08:31 *** supermop has joined #openttd 14:08:33 <ic111> Just lying about the date is probably not enough, but enlarging the time interval until new vehicles arrive, and similar things I would suspect 14:08:33 <ic111> LordAro: Now I am surprised. 14:08:33 <ic111> What did you do? 14:08:37 <ic111> andythenorth: Or, if people add more changes to their dayLength patches, what is their goal in doing so? 14:08:57 <LordAro> ic111: i am trying to work that out 14:09:50 <_dp_> Wolf01, I know for sure there will be problems with town gui and GS api :) 14:10:17 <Wolf01> Yes, for sure 14:10:17 <andythenorth> ic111: I have no idea what people do with DL :) 14:10:22 <_dp_> because it kind of assumes TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS ~= TICKS_PER_DAY 14:10:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause gave me a 100% working 2 or 3 line DL patch once 14:10:54 <andythenorth> at the end of every year, it reset the year back again 14:11:02 <andythenorth> it might have had a counter to only do it once 14:11:12 <andythenorth> totally 100% bug free 14:11:12 <Wolf01> I have one patch with 3 characters 14:11:15 <ic111> Thats what I effectively do using the Date cheat 14:11:32 <andythenorth> had some interesting effects on things like…date sensitive industry animations 14:11:38 <andythenorth> and vehicle intro dates 14:11:39 <Wolf01> But for example we need to identify cases where daylength must be applied, like this one: (_tick_counter + t->index) % TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS == 0 14:12:09 <ic111> And using the Date cheat in my experience never caused problems. 14:12:40 *** Flygon has quit IRC 14:12:44 <_dp_> Wolf01, that part doesn't seem affected by tics per day to me 14:13:19 <Wolf01> _dp_: no, but do you want cities to grog 4,8, 10 times faster? 14:13:22 <Wolf01> *ggrow 14:13:25 <Wolf01> *fuck 14:14:00 <_dp_> Wolf01, faster in relation to game date not real time, right? 14:14:10 <_dp_> then I actually do 14:14:17 <_dp_> but I understand if some people don't 14:14:45 <milek7> imo problem with daylength is not that it is hard to implement, but everybody have diffirent opinion on how it should work :p 14:15:12 <Wolf01> The only biggest problem with DL is the economy, you have a train moving 8x faster and making 8x more profit for the same "day time" 14:15:31 <Wolf01> Dividing it doesn't work 14:15:52 <Wolf01> You will slow down the entire game pace 14:16:11 <Wolf01> Making 8x more real time to be able to purchase another train 14:16:36 *** supermop has quit IRC 14:16:55 <Wolf01> So we could compromise on economy, because we keep the same game pace, but just slowing down the time at which new generations will be introduced 14:17:04 <milek7> isn't that the point, to slow down game pace? 14:17:19 <Wolf01> No 14:17:30 <andythenorth> I don’t think there is a single point 14:17:31 <_dp_> Wolf01, yeah, that why I'd leave tick-based stuff intact and suggest using basecost, town speed setting, etc. 14:17:31 <Wolf01> Just one aspect of it 14:17:35 <andythenorth> NoDaylength? 14:17:44 <andythenorth> script daylength with mods 14:17:55 <andythenorth> it’s impossible to do in core 14:18:09 <andythenorth> there is no clear definition of what it is 14:18:28 <LordAro> ic111: so i can reproduce it 14:18:58 <andythenorth> segment and group the places where daylength would be applied (places using ticks) 14:19:08 <andythenorth> define static constants for them 14:19:19 <andythenorth> let newgrf modify those constanst, once, on game start 14:19:29 <LordAro> ic111: make bus route (nothing fancy); set "default" timetable start, offset & length; change timetable length down to 0 months, then to days, then to maximum (20) 14:19:31 <andythenorth> there will be about 8 or so probably 14:19:36 <LordAro> wait a bit; hard freeze 14:19:43 <LordAro> not entirely sure how much of that is necessary 14:19:46 <_dp_> andythenorth, newgrf again :( 14:19:48 <andythenorth> yes 14:19:49 <LordAro> but it seems to be stuck in a loop somewhere 14:19:51 <andythenorth> job done 14:20:06 <andythenorth> nobody has to design a feature in core, just an API 14:20:10 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's such a pain to configure server when everything is in a newgrf 14:20:28 <andythenorth> it’s such a pain to have options where none existed before :) 14:20:30 <LordAro> ic111: seems to happen when the bus finishes loading 14:21:23 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> nobody has to design a feature in core, just an API <- it would be cool if core allowed it 14:21:35 <andythenorth> well the API has to be in core 14:21:44 <andythenorth> but it abdicates having to make choices 14:21:51 <andythenorth> which is better in this case 14:22:14 <LordAro> ic111: gdb output seems to imply a loop somewhere around CorrectTimetableOffset 14:24:07 <_dp_> andythenorth, you still need to choose an API :p 14:24:15 <andythenorth> yes 14:26:29 <ic111> LordAro: 14:26:42 <ic111> Indeed, setting the timetable length to zero is the problem. 14:27:20 <LordAro> yeah, i've just pinpointed the do {} while loop :) 14:27:23 <_dp_> making and maintaining API is much harder than just regular features, only worth it if there are many mods using that api 14:27:28 <Wolf01> andythenorth: And a DL API should decide to slow down the entire game pace even by slowing down vehicles making them travel a tile in a minute? 14:27:29 <LordAro> looks like it's missing a case for 0 14:27:43 <ic111> If you look into the loop in vehicle_base.h / CorrectTimetableOffset, then I shift the timetable by its length, *and* the exit condition depends on length and min_offset there 14:27:53 <andythenorth> Wolf01: if there’s a constant for that, then yes 14:28:01 <LordAro> :) 14:28:05 <ic111> I just should prevent setting the length to zero, having a timetable of length zero is senseless. 14:28:14 <LordAro> ic111: incidentally, why are those functions in the header? shouldn't they be in the cpp? 14:28:21 <andythenorth> there is literally nobody in the community who could get a daylength patch through, socially 14:28:50 <ic111> (and because of that, I probably never triggered the case during playing ;-)) 14:28:57 <Wolf01> I'm open to critiques and debates 14:29:21 <LordAro> ic111: see, having people who have no idea what they're doing is useful 14:29:22 <LordAro> :p 14:29:44 <Wolf01> But I'm also biased 14:29:58 <ic111> LordAro: Good question, probably I tried to mimic what I found before 14:30:22 <LordAro> ic111: in terms of some other feedback, the timetable window shouldn't be default, and i think its minimum size is far too wide 14:30:50 <LordAro> but still despite not knowing how to make it work, it looks a lot better than the current one 14:31:22 <ic111> LordAro: Making it work: Just don´t touch the length = zero case, or did I miss some additional problem? 14:32:27 <ic111> And: I´ll try to add comments in the forum thread with your points, but as you find quite a lot of them, please note problems there if I don´t do it. 14:32:49 <ic111> Getting five bugs / change requests in a chat increases the probability that you miss two of them ;-) 14:33:30 <LordAro> ic111: no, i've just not tried anything much beyond that :p 14:37:00 <ic111> Added feedback there: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=63721&p=1190830#p1190830 14:37:31 <LordAro> :) 14:37:34 * LordAro vanishes 14:40:45 <ic111> Regarding opening the timetable window: There is a setting "Open timetable view (with orders, arrivals, departures) by default"; so this request is just about which value the setting takes by default 14:40:45 *** supermop has joined #openttd 14:40:47 <milek7> for me daylength should: increase ticks per day, lower payment rates 14:41:48 <milek7> and increase cargo production if it is day based (leave unchanged if tick based) 14:42:05 <supermop> ic111 the 24 hour clock works reasonably well for what you describe 14:42:49 <supermop> of course you still end up with thousands of passengers at your station at 04:00 14:44:37 <andythenorth> ic111 do you have a github repo for TIP? 14:44:56 <ic111> No. 14:45:03 <andythenorth> oh :| 14:45:16 <andythenorth> nvm 14:45:46 <ic111> nvm? 14:45:47 <_dp_> milek7, imo there enough allmighty settings already. one setting should control one thing 14:46:17 <_dp_> milek7, if you want all 3 then do 3, one for daylength, one for payment one for cargo 14:46:25 <andythenorth> if you have a repo, you can ask to get binaries built on the ottd compile farm 14:46:36 <_dp_> but then, again, some if it is newgrfble so nothing gets done :( 14:46:39 <andythenorth> doesn’t have to be github, but eh, why use anything else? 14:47:06 <ic111> There was an attempt to set up an project there some years ago, as far as I remember parts of that project exist. 14:47:14 <andythenorth> I did it for NRT 14:47:18 <andythenorth> just clone openttd git repo 14:47:22 <andythenorth> make a branch 14:47:32 <andythenorth> dunno how you’d get a patch queue in there 14:47:38 <ic111> But things stopped before a repository was actually activated, and at that time, the repository wasn´ t that important as there was someone building windows binaries for me 14:47:43 <andythenorth> queues are daft 14:47:56 <supermop> I feel like nrt is so much easier to test and solve problems with because of that 14:48:02 <andythenorth> queues throw away everything good about a repo, because they’re private 14:48:03 <Alberth> queues are different 14:48:13 <Wolf01> andythenorth: what if we provide DL factor to grfs? One could use it for calculations? 14:48:44 <andythenorth> Alberth: or have I misunderstood queues? 14:49:00 <Alberth> depends on how yo see patch files 14:49:14 <Alberth> I regularly edit and shuffle those files 14:49:22 <Alberth> which is next to impossible in git 14:49:41 <Wolf01> I'll try a game with DL factor set to 1200 14:50:00 <Alberth> there is cherry-pick, but you need the entire commit machinery then 14:50:13 <Alberth> eg rename a variable that you added 14:50:18 <Alberth> trivial in a diff file 14:52:12 <ic111> It´s also a question of, which tools are you used to. I mean, given that I know how to use patch files, and didn´t use git so far (real world software development in my case is svn), switching to git because of a couple of bugfixes doesn´t seem senseful to me. 14:52:21 <Alberth> splitting or editing the change 14:53:35 <Alberth> git branches can't easily be stacked and changed 14:54:24 <Alberth> ie you have much better access to the changes that you make, rather than only to the state of the file at some point in the patch 14:55:19 <Alberth> unfortunately, hg seems to be moving away from patch queues too, afaik 14:55:48 *** orudge` has quit IRC 14:56:16 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 14:56:17 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 14:56:19 <andythenorth> Wolf01: dunno about providing DL to grfs 14:56:25 <andythenorth> the problem I can forsee there 14:56:30 <andythenorth> is grf authors vs. players 14:56:41 <andythenorth> but eh, am I here to sort out social problems? :P 14:56:53 <Wolf01> Yes, but not alone 14:57:21 <andythenorth> ic111 the upside of going to any repo that the compile farm can build…is binaries 14:57:32 <andythenorth> binaries => more players 14:57:43 <milek7> Alberth: interactive rebasing 14:57:52 * andythenorth would like to see 20 or 30 forks building on farm 14:58:01 <_dp_> andythenorth, oh, if only it worked like that... 14:58:14 <andythenorth> worked for NRT 14:58:19 <andythenorth> which is my sole data point so far 14:58:34 <andythenorth> only way to prove that wrong is try more 14:58:54 <_dp_> andythenorth, idk, feels like it kinda works coz 1 >> 0 (not talking NRT here) but meh... 14:59:14 <Alberth> milek7: I know that's git solution, but try changing something you changed in some commit spread all over the place 14:59:22 <Alberth> diff file gives me 1 file to edit 15:00:00 <Alberth> andI I don't get any match on code I didn't touch 15:00:47 <milek7> commit it, run rebase, move it under original commit you want to modify and change pick to squash 15:01:05 <milek7> but yes, more complicated than patch files ;p 15:01:27 <Alberth> I have also been editing patches higher in the queue to avoid merge conflicts 15:02:01 <Alberth> both git and hg are incredibly stupid in understanding there is nothing else but the sequence patches that they have 15:03:29 <_dp_> andythenorth, in other words there are not that many active players so if we make more binaries some of them are bound to get 0 interest 15:04:14 <andythenorth> and yet people apply patches and test them 15:04:17 <andythenorth> forums tell us that 15:04:19 <_dp_> andythenorth, while having binaries may increase interest in a patch it won't increase overall amount of players 15:04:23 <andythenorth> what’s the loss of having binaries? 15:04:37 * andythenorth is confused by the supposed downsides? 15:04:46 <andythenorth> computer does the work 15:05:11 <_dp_> andythenorth, nah, no loss rly, I'd like to see it too 15:05:49 <andythenorth> ok 461 FS issues left 15:06:02 <andythenorth> I have hit maximum boredom now 15:06:29 <andythenorth> I have a list of 15 more that I totally cannot review alone 15:07:02 <_dp_> andythenorth, just "binaries => more players" sounds a bit too enticing :) 15:07:15 * _dp_ hopes he picked a right word out of dictionary 15:07:21 <andythenorth> oh yeah, that was probably lame 15:07:43 <andythenorth> binaries => fractionally higher chance of useful feedback 15:08:09 <andythenorth> this: way out of my wheelhouse https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3590 15:08:13 <andythenorth> but 7 years old 15:08:16 <andythenorth> NFI 15:09:50 <_dp_> andythenorth, it's a hack, but a damn good one :p 15:10:52 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3590#comment7586 <- isn’t there GS deity for this? 15:11:06 <supermop> I only play binaries 15:11:11 <supermop> can't be asked to compile 15:13:45 <_dp_> andythenorth, I didn't get all the details in that particular bug, but in general server feels very handicapped 15:14:15 <_dp_> andythenorth, I remember some check like that one giving me a lot of troubles 15:14:52 <andythenorth> another one: 10 years old https://bugs.openttd.org/task/992 15:16:30 <_dp_> 992 is implemented imo 15:16:38 <_dp_> there is always something to improve 15:16:48 <andythenorth> ok 15:17:38 <supermop> what does TIP do? 15:17:39 <andythenorth> ah this 15:17:40 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1190831#p1190831 15:17:49 <_dp_> and any stored password is pretty much bound to be unencrypted 15:17:49 <andythenorth> ^ this is what I think has fucked OpenTTD a bit 15:18:03 <andythenorth> _dp_: well you could always store the key locally 15:18:06 <andythenorth> what could go wrong? 15:18:55 <_dp_> andythenorth, decryption key you mean? 15:19:05 <_dp_> andythenorth, that's not much different from plain text imo 15:19:19 <andythenorth> well you could put the key in a key store 15:19:23 <andythenorth> and keep the key for that locally 15:19:30 <andythenorth> yair 15:19:34 * andythenorth is bored :P 15:19:40 <_dp_> andythenorth, then you have a key to uncrypt a key :p 15:19:44 <andythenorth> can we talk about FIRS now? 15:19:48 <andythenorth> at least that can make progress 15:23:22 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 15:25:55 <_dp_> I think we have two mods vanishing already after I gave them access for configuring new firs server xD 15:27:25 <andythenorth> too much FIRS 15:27:25 <andythenorth> ? 15:27:51 <_dp_> too much work I guess 15:28:19 <_dp_> it's a cb so you need to balance it properly 15:28:31 <_dp_> and find right grfs for everything 15:28:53 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 15:29:50 <supermop> what needs to be fixed in unspooled? 15:30:31 <_dp_> also custom industry sets need custom mapgens in cb to fairly place industries for everyone 15:32:12 *** ic111 has quit IRC 15:34:55 *** ic111 has joined #openttd 15:41:45 <andythenorth> supermop: find some FS issues to close, and I’ll tell you? o_O 15:41:51 <andythenorth> actually I don’t know :) 15:53:41 <Wolf01> I'm still reasoning about balancing income and running costs 15:56:11 <Wolf01> Maybe I should think about it while lucid dreaming, so I have a lot more time, but it's difficult and I always get up with headache 16:04:04 <supermop> hmm should I composit on tram bogies? 16:05:08 <supermop> vanilla RVs are 7/8 16:05:16 <supermop> :( 16:05:37 <supermop> need to redo whole template 16:06:15 <supermop> also... I take 1/8 in _ to be 4px 16:06:34 <supermop> and 2 px in ? 16:06:36 <supermop> / 16:06:44 <supermop> and 1.5 in | 16:06:58 <supermop> feel like I don't like that somehow 16:07:15 <supermop> also I guess this is why all my bendy buses have such a gap 16:09:50 <supermop> if I build my trams out of 1/8 end cabs, and n*2/8 body segments, some of which may have wheels... 16:09:59 <supermop> I am generally happy 16:10:16 <supermop> but there is no natural place to put doors, espescially on older trams 16:10:39 <andythenorth> bendy trams 16:11:22 <supermop> if I make the cabs 2/8 that works better for end doors, and modern aerodynamic cabs 16:11:58 <supermop> but then its unclear where to put the wheels, as the shortest trams will be all cab 16:12:52 <supermop> so can just make different rules for each generation of tram, but then why even bother with a system 16:14:35 <supermop> I guess compositing on doors could work 16:16:28 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 16:16:58 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 16:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the trams that i know usually have doors near the cab 16:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and sometimes in the middle 16:29:54 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 16:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> also: http://www.gotha.de/typo3temp/pics/3c3471a83f.jpg 16:30:44 *** supermop has quit IRC 16:31:11 <Eddi|zuHause> (that middle door is in a separate bendy section) 16:46:38 *** debdog has quit IRC 16:48:58 <supermop_home> Eddi|zuHause does that segment have wheels? 16:50:11 *** debdog has joined #openttd 16:50:25 <supermop_home> the anglo American world doesn't have enough yellow buildings 16:50:55 <supermop_home> SE Asia, latin america, central and eastern Europe all have lots 16:51:03 <supermop_home> color never caught on here 17:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause> make east german houses: all grey 17:04:23 <supermop_home> what about before the war? 17:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> about the wheels: you see the little cutouts at the bottom? that's where the wheels are: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-B0407-0029-001,_Potsdam,_Neubauten_am_Platz_der_Einheit_(cropped).jpg 17:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_home: i don't know about before the war... all relevant pictures are black and white 17:13:12 *** debdog has quit IRC 17:14:34 <peter1138> urgh 17:15:11 <Wolf01> supermop_home: with good accuracy you can go for brick-yellow and copper-oxyde for roofs 17:15:35 <Wolf01> But it might vary between different places 17:15:55 *** debdog has joined #openttd 17:27:51 <andythenorth> now what shall I do? 17:27:54 <andythenorth> test patches? https://bugs.openttd.org/?do=index&project=1&type%5B0%5D=4&sev%5B0%5D=&pri%5B0%5D=&due%5B0%5D=&cat%5B0%5D=&status%5B0%5D=open&percent%5B0%5D=&reported%5B0%5D= 17:48:49 <Alberth> 2837 could be done by saving the game and loading it again? 17:52:44 <Alberth> 5390 needs that nogo change, and even then I am not convinced, ie why would you need an event for a destroyed house? 17:55:40 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:55:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:59:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: I’ll close 2837 18:01:30 <andythenorth> 5390 - it’s an anti-griefing measure according to forum thread 18:01:42 <andythenorth> prevents vandalism on city-builder goal servers 18:01:51 * andythenorth didn’t read the whole thread :P 18:03:05 <andythenorth> @calc 840-459 18:03:06 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 381 18:03:19 <andythenorth> after about 300 ‘no’, it’s getting harder to say ‘no’ :) 18:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 33*49 18:03:23 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1617 18:03:28 <andythenorth> esp. about stuff I domn’t understand 18:03:34 <andythenorth> -m 18:04:21 <andythenorth> this would be dependent on the OS? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4426 18:05:12 <Eddi|zuHause> whenever a game works like that, i immediately disable it 18:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, that code would probably be platform specific 18:10:42 <andythenorth> I don’t really want to highlight fonso for this one https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6466 18:10:52 <andythenorth> that request is basically bollocks, no? 18:14:35 <andythenorth> I have NFI how you could have ’10% cargo dist' 18:14:48 <andythenorth> and 90% manual 18:15:01 *** ic111 has quit IRC 18:16:38 <Alberth> 2155 seems a good feature 18:16:54 <Alberth> not used much likely, as there are very few dedicated servers 18:18:10 <frosch123> ottd command line could use a redesign :) 18:18:41 <frosch123> it has many weird things, but lacks close related ones 18:18:44 <Alberth> technically, you can allocate less than 100% capacity for a line to CD 18:19:00 <Alberth> which means you have space left 18:19:01 <frosch123> i believe there are multiple fs tasks about console options 18:19:18 <Alberth> not sure how you get pax to enter such a train though 18:19:31 <Alberth> as CD has to decide which pax not to move itself 18:19:41 <frosch123> like, it's exactly the case where every single fs task is bad, but by combining them you can put together something sane 18:20:37 <frosch123> like, why in the world is there a parameter to set the starting year? 18:21:20 <andythenorth> because we don’t have tags, I have been prefixing stuff in the titles 18:21:26 <andythenorth> I can’t make much use of categories 18:21:47 <andythenorth> currently you can search e.g. “Timetable:”, “Orders:” “Scenario Editor:” 18:21:51 <andythenorth> trying to group stuff 18:22:32 <andythenorth> w.r.t 6466, unless I misunderstood cdist 18:22:43 <andythenorth> most of the magic happens when moving cargo into and out of vehicles 18:23:06 <frosch123> i have no experience with cdist, but i remember that there is cargo with unassigned destination sometimes 18:23:20 <frosch123> possibly only intermediate until the next calculation finishes 18:23:36 <andythenorth> that will be loaded onto vehicles without established links afaik 18:23:45 <andythenorth> actually no real clue :) 18:24:33 <andythenorth> but anyway, I cannot think how to even describe “10% manual and 90% cdist” 18:24:36 <andythenorth> or whatever 18:25:17 <Alberth> "unassigned" it will hop on to any unfilled train 18:25:57 <Alberth> frosch, https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5487 is one you discussed with eddi 18:26:44 <Alberth> andy, the problem is likely how to point out pasengers that should not be routed by cdist 18:27:27 <Alberth> hmm, likely you can even do that given the capacity on a train 18:27:43 <Alberth> with a few unassigned, that should do the trick 18:28:16 <frosch123> Alberth: i do not see much point in a single seed variable 18:28:29 <frosch123> how much can you randomise with 32bits for everything? 18:28:54 <V453000> hm 18:29:01 <V453000> I see '32bits' and my eyes get red 18:29:05 <V453000> brain starts to boil 18:29:07 <V453000> you get the point 18:29:25 <frosch123> so you would rather need something which gives you a new random number every time 18:31:15 <Alberth> so, obsolete? 18:31:19 <Wolf01> 30+2bits 18:31:20 <frosch123> hmm, how was it worded in that c++ conference: we are not opposed to the idea, but it requires more thought on the etails 18:31:31 <Alberth> fair enough 18:32:35 <Alberth> andy, 5464 delivers 1 unit of cargo in round robin fashion to the industries, that will take forever to distribute eg ship deliveries 18:33:42 <andythenorth> ha 18:33:45 <andythenorth> close that 18:33:46 <andythenorth> :) 18:33:57 <frosch123> "EWG found the use case compelling, because (...). Several details still need to be worked out. " 18:33:58 <andythenorth> w.r.t to the seed, is anyone actually planning to use it? 18:34:07 <andythenorth> is it even a pony? http://openuru.org/images/no_you_cant_have_a_pony.jpg 18:34:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: how does sound for a closing reason? :p 18:36:51 <andythenorth> frosch123: add a closing category “no pony today” ? 18:38:55 <frosch123> advanced settings selection is ill-formed, no diagnostics required 18:39:22 <frosch123> did i read too many c++ papers lately? 18:39:35 <LordAro> *not enough 18:42:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: should I close 5646, or does it need a fairer review? 18:43:03 <andythenorth> it’s only 2013, if it was older I’d bin it 18:43:14 <Alberth> 5464, I hope 18:43:21 <andythenorth> oops 18:43:26 <Alberth> ie cargo to multiple industries 18:43:33 <andythenorth> yup 18:43:45 <Alberth> patch is not fast enough 18:43:55 <andythenorth> we could just extend cdist 18:44:03 <andythenorth> create virtual links for move-to-industry 18:44:18 <Alberth> you don't distribute 1000 candies one-by-one to 25 children 18:44:29 <andythenorth> or…use stations near the N tile and stop worrying about it 18:44:54 <andythenorth> ah…it’s lipstick on a pig, but if it was indicated at the station which industry was actually accepting… 18:44:58 <andythenorth> that would help :P 18:45:23 <Alberth> closest to the label afaik 18:46:01 <Alberth> I can see the value in the issue, but the solution just uses the wrong approach 18:46:27 <Alberth> it needs to calculate how to distribute, and then do it in one sweep 18:47:16 <Wolf01> <Alberth> you don't distribute 1000 candies one-by-one to 25 children <- why not? And I also wait they finish the previous one before giving them another 18:47:28 <Alberth> :D 18:47:40 <Alberth> try 10 candies :p 18:47:58 <Wolf01> 10 candies to 25 children could be a challenge 18:48:19 <Alberth> not for speed, most likely :p 18:48:32 <Wolf01> Maybe I should just put one against the other in a battle royale and give all of them to the survivor 18:49:27 <Wolf01> And I think that is what happened with the industries, one won 18:52:52 <andythenorth> station names…again https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6017 18:53:04 <andythenorth> that one is just a yes/no even for the principle 18:54:36 <Alberth> does an industry always have a station name? 18:54:50 <Alberth> in particular, does default set have that? 18:55:29 <Alberth> likely you can get away with defining an industry without a station name 18:56:22 <Alberth> if so, something has to produce station names 18:57:10 <Alberth> which would be "player names", as these are the only available names 18:57:53 <Alberth> if stations must always provide a name, then it's a matterof changing the code into assigning 18:58:22 <Wolf01> Make it an API 18:58:30 <Wolf01> So it can be defined via grf 18:58:44 <Wolf01> andythenorth would be happy 18:58:48 <Alberth> which would at least be feasible in the latter case 18:59:15 <Alberth> you can have station names in newgrf, I am asking if it's obligatory 18:59:33 <Alberth> ie is there always a name specific for an indsutry? 19:00:30 <Alberth> if not, the entire idea isn't even feasible currently 19:01:26 <Wolf01> With specific name you mean like "Fartbottom Coal mine"? 19:02:06 <andythenorth> it goes to “town coal mine #3” or something 19:02:08 * andythenorth tests 19:02:15 <Wolf01> Industries for sure have a city bound 19:03:30 <Wolf01> andythenorth: NoStationNames spec 19:05:00 <andythenorth> goes as far as “Lower [town name]” then “[town name] Station #16" 19:05:44 <andythenorth> changing original gameplay is against our objectives? 19:05:48 <andythenorth> so 6017 can be closed 19:06:00 <andythenorth> also, players will complain 19:06:16 <Wolf01> andythenorth: bah 19:06:19 <andythenorth> that doesn’t mean much, but in this case they will ask why station names for industries are now bugged 19:06:25 <andythenorth> because they all go to numbers 19:07:05 <andythenorth> unless we just patch oil rigs 19:07:23 <andythenorth> but that will likely also get applied to newgrf industries using the station tile 19:08:57 * andythenorth closes it 19:12:47 <V453000> well shit 19:12:53 <V453000> I was trying to use lists as templates :D 19:12:56 <V453000> dayum 19:13:17 <andythenorth> deepcopy 19:13:27 * andythenorth probably misunderstood 19:14:08 <andythenorth> LordAro: want to add your gist to this? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6525 19:14:14 <Alberth> deepcopy is the brute-force approach :p 19:14:47 <V453000> was doing dumb shit https://paste.openttdcoop.org/prvwclk5l 19:15:01 <V453000> need to convert it to functions or something I guess 19:15:38 <andythenorth> openttdcoop lost it’s cert? 19:15:43 * andythenorth getting warnings 19:16:12 <V453000> :d wot 19:16:34 <andythenorth> SSL seems to be broken 19:16:52 <andythenorth> only according to Google 19:17:13 <andythenorth> anyway, V453000 all those [n+1, n+1, n+1] offsets 19:17:24 <andythenorth> is it always n+1, n+2 etc? 19:17:34 <andythenorth> looks like you don’t need to write that out 19:17:41 <V453000> usually, sometimes it's hardcoded number 19:17:49 <V453000> there's a weird pattern 19:17:58 <andythenorth> probably fine written out then 19:18:00 <andythenorth> easier 19:18:27 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 19:18:30 <V453000> it's n, n+1, n+2 for the first index, but for example n+7, n+6, n+5 for the last index 19:18:39 <V453000> which means they go against each other and eventually they meet somehow 19:18:41 <V453000> which I edit manually 19:18:46 <V453000> which is why it's all written out yeah 19:18:58 <andythenorth> which lucky patch shall I test first? :P 19:19:10 <andythenorth> they are mostly unappealing eh? 19:19:22 <andythenorth> hth can we make testing patches more fun? o_O 19:19:37 <andythenorth> it’s totally like eating unwanted vegetables right now 19:20:17 <andythenorth> err 19:20:30 <andythenorth> so it’s not like I asked people to send me this work 19:20:49 <andythenorth> same goes for devs eh? 19:24:22 <_dp_> I think it's only worth testing patches that are somewhat reviewed 19:24:59 <_dp_> or where testing also kind of reviewing, like UI patches 19:25:17 <Wolf01> ^ 19:25:54 <andythenorth> dunno 19:26:05 <andythenorth> there’s still 75 to review in that case 19:26:54 <V453000> oh wtf 19:27:03 <V453000> loading BRIX with NUTS could cause desyncs 19:27:09 <V453000> BRIX disables itself 19:27:09 <V453000> wot 19:27:43 <V453000> OH 19:27:45 <frosch123> when static and non-static grfs try to mess with each other, the static one is dropped 19:27:52 <andythenorth> @seen supercheese 19:27:52 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: supercheese was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 46 minutes, and 37 seconds ago: <Supercheese> and that's good enough for me 19:27:57 <V453000> I guess that's because NUTS is trying to check for signals 19:28:02 <V453000> jeez :D 19:28:57 <V453000> I guess that only happens for multiplayer, right? 19:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> no 19:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> happens always 19:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> need to load BRIX non-static, or drop the check from NUTS 19:29:46 <V453000> why don't I get the error in single player then ._. 19:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, then i don't know 19:30:25 <andythenorth> closed https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5456 19:30:34 <V453000> well if it's desync related protection I would understand it only applying to MP 19:30:49 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the thing is, the NUTS check cannot have different result depending on whether static BRIX is loaded or not, so the only valid solution is to always not load BRIX 19:31:23 <V453000> yes, or load it normally without static 19:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that must be done by the server owner 19:33:26 <V453000> of course 19:36:15 <frosch123> what should i do with all the fish that i accidentially get from destruction robots? 19:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> give it to the dolphins? 19:37:08 <frosch123> that achievement has no hints how to get it 19:37:20 <frosch123> it's an easter dophin or something 19:37:27 <V453000> put fish into rocket, launch it 19:37:30 <V453000> gg 19:37:39 <Wolf01> SPOLER 19:37:42 <Wolf01> SPOILER 19:37:44 <Wolf01> SHIT 19:37:45 <frosch123> he, i tried that 19:37:47 <frosch123> did not work 19:38:01 <Wolf01> Did you try to put them on the water again? 19:38:35 <frosch123> i actually got excited when i thought about the rocket 19:38:43 *** adf88 has joined #openttd 19:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i just randomly said that, didn't know there was an achievement :p 19:38:46 <frosch123> and now you tell me that it should actually work? :o 19:39:21 <Wolf01> Try to put 42 fishes on the rocket 19:40:11 <frosch123> hmm, i only launched one 19:40:17 <frosch123> what is the stack size for fish? 19:43:25 <peter1138> 16? 19:44:45 <andythenorth> SPACE as hotkey? o_O https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6375 19:45:14 <_dp_> YES PLIZ 19:45:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: i would like smarter hotkeys 19:45:21 <_dp_> and tab :) 19:45:29 <frosch123> like rotate selected object 19:45:48 <andythenorth> presumably we can’t just give every UI control a UUID? 19:45:59 <andythenorth> and then let players map keys to UUIDs? 19:46:40 * andythenorth looks how it works 19:46:48 <_dp_> andythenorth, an entry in hotkeys.cfg is a nice UUID ;) 19:46:50 <andythenorth> yes 19:47:07 <frosch123> andythenorth: not everything has a gui button 19:47:20 <frosch123> like all those weird cycle signal type 19:47:34 <frosch123> or toggle depot orientation 19:48:08 <_dp_> rotate hotkey would be very nice, it's the one probably missing the most right now 19:48:41 <andythenorth> ach 19:49:06 <_dp_> or mb more like cycle hotkey indeed, that cycles signals too 19:49:47 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#I.27ve_fixed_a_bug_.2F_added_a_feature._How_can_I_submit_it_to_the_codebase.3F 19:50:03 <andythenorth> “First join us on irc, and discuss what you are trying to achieve" 19:50:20 *** orudge` has quit IRC 19:50:27 <andythenorth> “Patches with no prior discussion are rarely accepted from contributors who aren’t known to us" 19:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i always want to reply to suggestion threads like "how did nobody ever think of that before?" and each word is a link to a previous suggestion about the exact same thing. but then i can't be bothered to look for all those threads 19:51:09 <andythenorth> “It can be disheartening to attach a patch to the tracker and then nobody even comments. To avoid this, conversation in advance is best" 19:51:23 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 19:51:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 19:51:27 <andythenorth> “Discussing in irc is still no guarantee, and some days the channel is quiet." 19:51:36 <andythenorth> “But eh, it’s just more fun this way.” 19:52:49 <andythenorth> “FS ticket comments are a poor way to have a conversation, and can seem very formal, cold, dismissive or rude when not intended to be any of those" 19:53:25 <andythenorth> “Often it turns out that individual patches aren’t much use in isolation, or are fixing part of a bigger issue.” 19:53:41 <andythenorth> “Only when the bigger issue is tackled is it worth the effort to change OpenTTD” 19:53:44 <andythenorth> or something 19:53:52 <_dp_> and bundled together they are too big to review :p 19:55:38 <supermop_home> tram segment sprites, assuming each part can have and either end: a cab, a 'blind' end with no cab, or a gangway to next vehicle 19:57:00 <andythenorth> “Sometimes patches get no comments simply because NOBODY LIKES YOUR IDEA, but nobody wants to say so in case it looks rude ;)” 19:57:06 <supermop_home> not all combinations are likely to occur, so I don't need nomeclature that covers everything 19:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_home: so what was the question? 19:57:58 <andythenorth> supermop_: got a mockup? 19:58:46 <frosch123> btw. i am interested in learning xslt 19:58:50 <supermop_home> but something like " A is a part with 2 cabs. B is a part with one cab and one gangway. C is a part with one cab and one blind end. D is a part with two gangways. E is a part with two blind ends. F is a part with one gangway and one blind end. etc 19:59:00 <supermop_home> is not very helpful or intuitive 19:59:12 <frosch123> so if you can find a use case to use xslt in ottd / some patch... :p 19:59:57 <supermop_home> other way is something like A= cab, b= gangway etc, and call each one "part_X_AB" etc 20:00:17 <supermop_home> but it seems clunky to use so many digits 20:00:18 * _dp_ tried to understand xslt few times but failed 20:00:31 <Alberth> very silly language 20:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_home: parts with gangway are articulated front/middle/end, parts without gangway are front/end 20:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so cab+gangway = articulated front, gangway+gangway = articulated middle, gangway+blind = articulated end 20:01:13 <supermop_home> Eddi|zuHause some older tram might have articulated parts with no gangway 20:01:21 <andythenorth> frosch123: I am trying desperately to get xslt out of my life 20:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> cab+blind = front, blind+blind = end 20:01:43 <andythenorth> eh the website is django? 20:01:58 * andythenorth wonders if it’s running a wsgi stack 20:02:15 <supermop_home> question is mostly, how to give these sprites short but meaningful systematic names 20:02:21 <andythenorth> actually doesn’t matter, Diazo works outside WSGI 20:02:22 <andythenorth> http://docs.diazo.org/en/latest/ 20:02:44 <andythenorth> if you want to learn xslt, we can reskin the website without touching django 20:03:23 <andythenorth> you will then learn why that is a terrible idea, unless you have literally no control over the website code (happens when you’re selling consulting services sometimes) 20:03:49 <supermop_home> ooops forgot wheels 20:04:27 <_dp_> andythenorth, omg, instead of fixing the website let's write another website that will fix our website? 20:04:34 <andythenorth> a theming layer 20:04:41 <andythenorth> there are valid use cases 20:04:46 <andythenorth> they’re not common 20:04:47 <frosch123> hmm, this time the fish worked 20:04:56 <frosch123> i wonder what i misclicked last time 20:05:36 <andythenorth> <replace fish=“click” content=“click” /> 20:05:56 <andythenorth> so eh, 75 patches to review 20:05:57 <frosch123> i also do not find a way to put them back into the water 20:06:00 <_dp_> andythenorth, spamming identical websites? 20:06:07 <frosch123> blue prints to not capture fish population 20:06:18 <frosch123> and i cannot put them manually either 20:06:35 <andythenorth> of those 75, only 2 interest me 20:06:43 <andythenorth> and 1 just fixes a type in code :P 20:06:48 <andythenorth> typo * 20:06:49 <andythenorth> :P 20:06:49 <frosch123> maybe i can put them into the reactor 20:07:17 <andythenorth> there are maybe 5 more patches that are like “I should look at this to be a good person" 20:07:21 <andythenorth> but eh, it’s boring isn’t it/ 20:07:23 * _dp_ not sure if frosch is talking about fish or patches 20:07:26 <andythenorth> fish 20:07:32 <andythenorth> patches are my problem today 20:07:38 <andythenorth> frosch123 is fishing 20:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you think being a good person is boring? 20:07:46 <andythenorth> errr…yes 20:07:52 <andythenorth> when pushed to answer 20:08:07 <V453000> :D foundation sprite 1666 is broken 20:08:09 <V453000> how ironic 20:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you know, the number 666 being evil has nothing to do with it being a 6 repeated 3 times 20:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> because back when that story was written, the "arabic numbers" weren't invented yet 20:09:22 <andythenorth> it’s just Nero isn’t it? 20:09:26 <andythenorth> allegedly? 20:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, allegedly, probably 20:09:58 <andythenorth> unless that’s false flag :P 20:10:03 <andythenorth> wheels in wheels in wheels 20:10:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but still, back then the number 666 would be written with greek letters 20:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> or hebrew letters 20:10:33 <andythenorth> so patches via FS - mostly dead then? o_O 20:10:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and they were different letters for 6, 60 and 600 20:11:07 <frosch123> V453000: so 1666 contains every roman number exactly once, and sorted? MDCLXVI 20:11:27 <V453000> GG 20:11:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast#Nero 20:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that misses the double-M and double-D 20:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> for 5000 and 10000 20:11:49 <Eddi|zuHause> other way round 20:11:57 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: if i accept those, it's infinite 20:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> not really 20:12:31 *** jgkamat has left #openttd 20:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: also, you can make a chain 16/166/1666/... or 6/16/66/166/... 20:14:30 <frosch123> the reactor does not accept fish 20:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: try mr fusion from the far future of 2017? 20:16:43 <V453000> frosch123: yet 20:22:07 <V453000> I fixed a BRIX bug \o/ 20:22:10 <V453000> was productive :D 20:22:39 <andythenorth> congrats 20:22:47 <andythenorth> I avoided finishing FIRS 20:22:53 <andythenorth> or even thinking about newgrf 20:23:06 * andythenorth has had holiday in Flyspray 20:23:15 <V453000> by making sure finishing of other people ideas was avoided? :D 20:23:17 <V453000> :D:D:D 20:23:25 <V453000> such win iz 20:23:29 <andythenorth> V453000: you should get ‘close ticket’ rights :) 20:23:39 <andythenorth> would be spree for you 20:23:51 *** Alberth has left #openttd 20:24:05 <V453000> would iz 20:24:09 <V453000> haz time to read ticket not 20:24:22 * andythenorth either 20:24:28 <V453000> my cat language is getting less readable by the minute 20:24:39 <andythenorth> total sense makes to me 20:24:50 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 20:24:53 <V453000> k rawr 20:26:04 <andythenorth> is nice to have break from newgrf 20:26:18 <andythenorth> probly time haz FIRS 3 done 20:26:19 <V453000> I guess :) 20:26:39 <V453000> I'm just going through BRIX and wondering what do I REALLY want to do for next version 20:26:52 <V453000> is a bunch of smaller fixes which isn't particularly fun to do :D but eh 20:26:56 <V453000> might also rework all trees 20:27:48 <V453000> yeah I should do that first 20:28:01 <V453000> need a break from the python thing for today 20:28:10 <andythenorth> trees not aweome awlready? 20:28:15 <V453000> rewriting that index definition needs to be left for tomorrow 20:28:18 <V453000> trees are super fucked 20:28:23 <V453000> some of them are good 20:28:32 <V453000> but most of them are not and are totally different style from good ones 20:28:46 <V453000> + no trees for arctic, tropic or toyland, and some missing for temperate 20:30:49 <V453000> but yeah otoh 344 models or how many 20:30:52 <V453000> ._. 20:32:00 <andythenorth> which is good? o_O 20:33:45 <V453000> that's kind of insane 20:34:23 <andythenorth> do all same tree? o_O 20:34:26 <andythenorth> 1 model 20:35:18 <V453000> I'd like to avoid that 20:35:39 <V453000> might just do something simplistic 20:36:14 *** supermop has joined #openttd 20:36:32 * andythenorth will await results 20:36:38 <andythenorth> now such sleep 20:36:39 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 20:39:08 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 20:41:45 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:41:53 <Wolf01> Such thunderstorm 20:44:56 *** tycoondemon has quit IRC 20:45:10 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd 21:06:13 *** luxtram has joined #openttd 21:10:25 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:29:54 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 21:30:23 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 21:47:26 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> now, is the result of "such sleep" actually "find sleep"? [sorry, joke works better if you know german] 21:53:11 <supermop> ha 21:54:18 *** Wolf03 has joined #openttd 21:54:18 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2865 21:54:19 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 21:55:24 <Wolf01> Eh, ISP got nuked by blackout 21:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you're in serious need of a new ISP 21:56:02 <Wolf01> Yes 22:00:15 *** Guest2865 has quit IRC 22:15:40 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:17:35 *** supermop has quit IRC 22:26:30 *** Progman has joined #openttd 22:41:17 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 22:44:27 *** supermop_home has joined #openttd 23:13:15 <Shoshonite> Does anyone know where the Oil Refinery sprites are hidden from OpenGFX I can't even find a reference to them in the Sauce 23:18:48 *** adf88 has quit IRC 23:21:04 *** supermop_home has quit IRC 23:23:57 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 23:43:26 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 23:43:52 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 23:44:39 <Sylf> You'll need to look in the source. No sauce or salsa or soup will contain those sprites. 23:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> use the sauce 23:52:54 <Sylf> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/entry/sprites/png/industries/industries_misc.png A part of that looks like oil refinery 23:56:31 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC