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00:10:15 *** debdog has quit IRC 00:13:07 *** debdog has joined #openttd 01:13:25 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 02:09:44 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:32:01 *** glx has quit IRC 02:58:08 *** Biolunar_ has joined #openttd 03:05:08 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 03:47:25 *** Cubey has quit IRC 03:57:52 *** gentz has joined #openttd 03:59:18 <gentz> Uhhhh... so I'm making a patch which makes the convert/upgrade rails button also upgrade trains if there in a depo 03:59:33 <gentz> cause electric -> monorail is super painfull 04:00:06 <gentz> Is there anyone who I should consult on this/ask permission from before I start? 05:33:30 <LordAro> gentz: permission? no one. that's open source for you :p 05:34:07 <LordAro> however, if you're actually planning on getting it included in the game in the future, that's a bit more tricky 05:34:32 <gentz> Yes thats what I mean 05:37:26 *** Keridos has quit IRC 05:40:23 <LordAro> i'm not aware of any existing patch that does this, but there are a few newgrfs that attempt to solve the same issue (universal railtypes, notably) 05:43:00 *** Keridos has joined #openttd 06:17:15 *** cHawk has quit IRC 06:28:32 <Flygon> So you specify what train is upgraded to which when upgrading the track? 06:28:42 <Flygon> ie. to account for NewGRF sets, rather than the base-set. 06:29:34 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 06:33:17 *** Deactivated has joined #openttd 06:33:56 <Deactivated> Hi guys' 06:34:50 <Deactivated> #join ttdreddit 06:35:03 <Deactivated> oops sorry 06:35:22 <Deactivated> trying to guess the channel for the server ircs 06:45:36 *** Deactivated has quit IRC 06:58:26 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:33:01 *** blocage has joined #openttd 08:31:01 <Alkel_U3> GUIwise, specifying the replacement scheme could be done from the autoreplace window. It won't be carried out when the new train is incompatible with the depot's railtype but it could be accounted for when performing the depot upgrade 08:57:29 *** mescalito has joined #openttd 09:17:14 *** Hiddenfunstuff has joined #openttd 09:45:23 *** Celestar has quit IRC 09:45:34 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 09:48:36 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 09:49:16 <Wolf01> o/ 09:50:19 <Wolf01> Strange, it took me more time to have the breakfast (a coffee) than going to bank 09:50:27 *** debdog has quit IRC 09:55:37 *** Celestar has joined #openttd 10:07:31 *** Thanark has quit IRC 10:07:51 *** Celestar has quit IRC 10:19:15 *** Celestar has joined #openttd 10:39:47 <planetmaker> LordAro, can you check whether paste.o.o works for you now w/o cert issues? 10:49:09 *** adf88 has joined #openttd 10:55:46 <LordAro> planetmaker: works \o/ 11:10:39 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 11:14:22 <Wolf01> Works for me too 11:40:50 <planetmaker> wonderful 11:45:10 <LordAro> thanks planetmaker :) 11:54:00 <andythenorth> no cert issues for me now either :) 11:54:04 <andythenorth> thanks 12:25:30 *** cute[m] has quit IRC 12:25:30 *** UncleCJ has quit IRC 12:29:20 *** UncleCJ has joined #openttd 13:02:21 *** cute[m] has joined #openttd 13:46:12 *** Flygon has quit IRC 13:48:19 <andythenorth> isn’t it 13:58:25 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 14:06:08 <Wolf01> Iz will of live? 14:11:20 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 14:11:20 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 14:11:24 <Alberth> o/ 14:11:40 <Wolf01> o/ 14:24:55 *** blocage has quit IRC 14:25:37 <andythenorth> @summon frosch123 14:25:37 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: out of chalk 14:25:45 <andythenorth> @get chalk 14:25:45 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: 'chalk' is not a valid topic number. 14:25:50 <andythenorth> @buy chalk 14:25:53 <andythenorth> @find chalk 14:25:58 <andythenorth> @pickup chalk 14:26:03 <andythenorth> @go north 14:26:05 <andythenorth> hmm 14:26:05 <andythenorth> https://circleci.com/blog/its-the-future/ 14:40:50 <Alberth> very tiring hypy 14:41:42 <andythenorth> Wolf01: iz will 14:41:47 <andythenorth> such html 14:42:10 <Alberth> more firs, I see 14:42:18 <andythenorth> norwegian 14:42:22 <andythenorth> and so on 14:42:27 <andythenorth> Norwegian FIRS 14:42:31 <Alberth> :o 14:42:32 <andythenorth> Leif should fork it :) 14:42:33 <Wolf01> andythenorth: send me some will? 14:42:46 <andythenorth> Wolf01: is it not for cheap on ebay? 14:43:28 <Wolf01> Seem it's against ebay tos to sell that 14:47:14 <Wolf01> I can exchange some will with a bag full of air bags 14:50:39 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 14:55:55 <LordAro> andythenorth: that link iz excellent 14:56:18 <andythenorth> it was linked back from the JS version someone posted here a month or so ago 14:57:02 <LordAro> yeah, i thought it was reminiscent 15:31:12 *** cosmobird has joined #openttd 15:38:19 *** Maraxus has joined #openttd 15:57:56 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 16:07:49 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 16:08:21 <Alberth> o/ 16:08:35 <planetmaker> \o 16:12:46 <andythenorth> |o| 16:12:54 <andythenorth> “waving or drowning?" 16:13:54 <LordAro> why not both? 16:18:30 <andythenorth> “waving whilst drowning" 16:19:40 <frosch123> hoi 16:19:45 <Wolf01> Quak 16:22:55 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 16:34:11 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 16:37:28 <andythenorth> ticket wars https://bugs.python.org/issue28638#msg280560 16:37:29 <andythenorth> such 16:42:55 <frosch123> andythenorth: devs.openttd.org/~frosch/newfarm/openttd-dev-macosx-10.8-x86_64.zip <- does that work? 16:45:16 <Wolf01> Does not have http(s):// in front, so it's not clickable :P 16:45:39 <frosch123> do you have osx? 16:46:29 *** glx has joined #openttd 16:46:29 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 16:48:00 *** cosmobird has quit IRC 16:48:18 *** cosmobird has joined #openttd 16:49:44 <Wolf01> You asked if that works, as a link it doesn't (needs to be copied and pasted in browser), I can't speak about the content 16:52:44 <frosch123> don't turn into eddi 16:52:58 <Wolf01> I was bored, sorry 16:54:32 <Wolf01> BBL 16:58:30 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 16:58:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: planetmaker: actually, do you still have 32bit osx systems? 16:59:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: not sure how to check but I doubt it 16:59:58 <andythenorth> iirc, Apple have dropped 32 bit apps 17:00:04 <andythenorth> or have announced they are 17:01:06 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 17:01:33 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 17:01:50 <andythenorth> seems mine is 64 bit 17:02:52 <frosch123> osx 10.6 is the last 32bit one or something 17:03:18 <andythenorth> frosch123: binary you linked w.f.m 17:03:41 * andythenorth would be more ruthless about dropping old OS X version support 17:03:48 *** Progman has joined #openttd 17:04:03 <frosch123> TrueBrain: TrueBrain-Bot: so, what actualy needs doing then? the docker files you linked just work (tm) 17:06:40 <planetmaker> frosch123, I do still have the old laptop. And it might even boot into OSXX 10.6 or whatever it has. I haven't started it in ages 17:06:54 <planetmaker> I think that's a 64 bit system, though 17:07:13 <frosch123> so, no point in creating a 32bit binary for testing? 17:07:27 <planetmaker> it can build and run 32bit and 64 bit binaries 17:07:30 <andythenorth> I have a 32 bit mac in my loft 17:07:32 <andythenorth> but no 17:07:37 <planetmaker> usually that's combined to a universal one. 17:07:50 <LordAro> might be worth asking on the forums? 17:07:54 <LordAro> you never know 17:08:12 <planetmaker> but... I wouldn't think anyone with a straight mind would still play OpenTTD on a 32bit mac system 17:08:22 <andythenorth> we have open FS about compiling on 10.4 17:08:27 <planetmaker> however people build it for a raspberry pie and simiolar 17:08:32 <andythenorth> probably 32 bit PowerPC 17:08:39 <andythenorth> meanwhile https://www.macrumors.com/2017/06/06/apple-to-phase-out-32-bit-mac-apps/ 17:08:58 <andythenorth> you buy the fruit logo, you get aggressive deprecation 17:09:06 <andythenorth> other brands of computer are available 17:10:09 *** cosmobird_ has joined #openttd 17:11:23 <andythenorth> I would reject https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6087 17:11:31 <andythenorth> I would close this as no longer relevant https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5797 17:12:26 <andythenorth> I would also reject https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5694 17:12:52 <andythenorth> I’ve only left them open in case I’m missing something 17:12:54 <andythenorth> :) 17:13:11 <andythenorth> defining official support policies…eh I’m not authorised for that :) 17:15:42 *** cosmobird has quit IRC 17:20:38 *** cosmobird has joined #openttd 17:20:38 *** cosmobird_ has quit IRC 17:30:29 <andythenorth> biab 17:30:30 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:34:37 *** Maraxus has quit IRC 17:37:17 *** cosmobird has quit IRC 17:40:45 *** blocage has joined #openttd 17:44:06 *** FLHerne_ has quit IRC 17:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27903 trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt (2017-08-30 19:45:39 +0200 ) 17:45:46 <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints: 17:45:47 <DorpsGek> vietnamese: 37 changes by myquartz 17:46:19 <Wolf01> Friend (yes, that one) asked for "openttd:" protocol to connect to server links clicked in browser/email/wtf 17:46:21 <Wolf01> BBL again 17:47:27 <Wolf01> BTW I told him to stop harassing me with stupid things and just use the ingame server browser 17:48:49 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 18:08:05 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 18:13:23 <andythenorth> quintuple rainbow over my house 18:13:24 <andythenorth> unusual 18:14:28 <frosch123> not bad 18:14:59 <andythenorth> shall I close those OS X tickets then? o_O 18:15:12 <andythenorth> we don’t have a maintainer to comment, and the BDFL is absent :P 18:15:17 <frosch123> most weird thing i ever saw was when it rained so heavily while sun-shining that the raindrops smashing onto the street created a ground fog with rainbows in them 18:15:50 <frosch123> like, usually rainbows are far away, but there it were only like 10m 18:16:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: how long does it last if you only close one per day? 18:16:29 <andythenorth> ~14 months? 18:16:41 <frosch123> i meant the osx ones :p 18:16:52 <andythenorth> ach, probably a week :P 18:17:01 <andythenorth> some are stupid, impossible to repro 18:25:40 <andythenorth> random segfault crap :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6615 18:25:50 <andythenorth> ‘it runs for a while' 18:26:56 <andythenorth> just a crashlog, on a 4 year old Apple OS that I don’t have https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6146 18:27:03 <andythenorth> with no savegame no repro steps 18:31:32 <andythenorth> hmm 18:31:38 <andythenorth> is there a policy on crash reports? 18:37:05 <frosch123> the other platforms give a backtrace in the crash.log 18:37:15 <frosch123> noone seem to have implemented that for osx 18:40:19 <andythenorth> it’s probably not something I’d be able to learn quickly :P 18:41:13 <frosch123> it should be similar to the linux one 18:41:21 <frosch123> though maybe it needs clang specific code 18:41:30 <frosch123> so, maybe also something for LordAro 18:41:31 <andythenorth> should I put a mac on SSH somewhere? :P 18:42:00 <andythenorth> I do actually have spare macs, and a moderately stable cable connection 18:42:03 <LordAro> ! 18:43:02 <frosch123> LordAro: does clang also link with glibc? 18:43:21 <frosch123> i.e. does src/os/unix/crashlog_unix.cpp become active as well? 18:43:34 <frosch123> it has implementations for glibc and solaris (wtf) 18:43:52 <LordAro> good question 18:43:59 <LordAro> it uses gcc's stdlib by defauly 18:44:01 <LordAro> t 18:44:14 <frosch123> otoh, do i recall some c++11 stuff for backtraces? 18:44:27 <andythenorth> / month to rent a crap mac mini in a datacentre :P 18:47:44 * andythenorth too mean 18:48:52 <frosch123> so, there is a crashlog_osx.cpp, and it contains code for stacktraces 18:48:58 <frosch123> does it not work? 18:49:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: if you kill your openttd with "killall -6 openttd" 18:49:24 <frosch123> does the crash.log contain a stacktrace? 18:51:11 * andythenorth testing 18:52:04 <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p6ho2q2zb 18:52:26 <andythenorth> time is UTC? :o 18:52:41 * andythenorth hasn’t figured the offset, but it’s off by one hour compared to BST 18:53:14 <frosch123> ok, so it contains some stacktrace 18:53:38 <frosch123> can't tell whether it is short because it was idling 18:55:47 <andythenorth> want another? 18:56:19 <frosch123> can you make a real crash, like reloading bad newgrf :p 18:56:28 <frosch123> you may have experience with that :) 18:57:54 <andythenorth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pdlnvj78z 18:58:03 <andythenorth> I crash it a lot on changed strings :P 18:58:09 <andythenorth> but that was killall 18:59:45 <blocage> there is no offscreen drawing ? 18:59:46 <frosch123> well, that crashlog code has been there since at least 2009 19:00:10 <frosch123> so, no idea why some tasks have none 19:02:38 *** adf88 has quit IRC 19:03:42 *** adf88 has joined #openttd 19:04:13 <andythenorth> maybe the crashlog code crashed :P 19:05:24 <andythenorth> is it fair game to close crash reports without full information? 19:05:50 <andythenorth> imo, crash reports tend towards being useful in aggregate, not individual cases :P 19:05:55 <frosch123> there is a close reason "not enough information" 19:11:11 <andythenorth> so there used to be an automated crash reporter? o_O 19:11:39 <frosch123> i read about that, but never saw it 19:11:46 <frosch123> must be more than 10 years ago :) 19:13:22 <andythenorth> aggregate, data-mine, plot on a chart :P 19:13:37 <andythenorth> I have NFI how to actually do that, but it’s an interesting project 19:14:23 <frosch123> well, given that crash.dmp end up being beyond 20mib lately... 19:14:43 <andythenorth> that does get interesting 19:14:48 <andythenorth> it would scale horribly? :) 19:14:59 <frosch123> while we extract like 500byte from them... 19:15:19 <andythenorth> could we ingest crash reports on a queue, extract the data, incremement statistics, delete the raw report? 19:15:44 <andythenorth> somewhat similar to a behaviour tracking system we wrote for flash games years ago at work 19:16:03 <andythenorth> except not 20mib 19:16:08 <andythenorth> more like a few kb 19:18:23 <frosch123> hmm, maybe release builds are compiled without debug symbols 19:19:05 <frosch123> stable binary is about 2mib smaller than nightly for osx 19:22:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so there used to be an automated crash reporter? o_O <-- i vaguely remember a button like "send crash report", but i think that never worked. or was disabled on most platforms, or something 19:24:20 <andythenorth> hmm 19:24:23 <andythenorth> eh ok 19:24:34 <andythenorth> well I closed 2 OS X bugs 19:24:39 <andythenorth> 398 FS left :P 19:25:46 <planetmaker> frosch123, andythenorth I used to get stacktraces on OSX... but maybe things changed? 19:25:53 <planetmaker> you need to compile as debug build possibly, though 19:27:58 <andythenorth> how would this get closed? :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6365 19:28:07 <andythenorth> if it’s possibly fixed? 19:28:34 <andythenorth> another OS X, no stacktrace https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6393 19:29:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess you can close 6365 19:29:23 <andythenorth> no further reports? 19:29:32 <frosch123> apparently not 19:30:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: i bet 6393 is "out of memory" 19:31:15 <frosch123> hmm, nah 19:31:15 <andythenorth> seems to be a pattern of OS X AI bugs? 19:31:37 <frosch123> it is a 32bit binary, and it uses 32bpp blitter, but no 32bpp baseset 19:32:06 <frosch123> though... does that change it? 19:32:14 <frosch123> it's the same memory usage right? 19:32:26 <andythenorth> hmm, AI issues aren’t specific to OS X, nvm 19:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't the sprite cache size get automatically adjusted? 19:32:45 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but before the ais 19:33:05 <frosch123> so after spritecache you have very little heap, and ai may use all of that 19:33:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: can you find a pattern "32bit binary, 32bit blitter, ai crash"? 19:33:55 <andythenorth> errr 19:33:58 <frosch123> all of those are potentially "out of memory" 19:34:28 <andythenorth> I tagged all the crashes https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=Crash%3A&project=1 :P 19:34:40 <andythenorth> they’re not all out of memory, I can see that much :) 19:35:17 <andythenorth> if only we had a thing that parsed crash logs into sqlite or something :P 19:35:37 <frosch123> you can likely write a python script for that 19:35:47 <frosch123> query all fs, download all crash.log, parse them 19:36:02 <andythenorth> sounds like a job for LordAro :) 19:36:38 <frosch123> poor boy :) 19:36:50 <andythenorth> Wolf01 was bored earlier 19:37:03 <andythenorth> flyspray has rss buried somewhere 19:37:19 <andythenorth> or just curl html and use libxml or something 19:37:32 <andythenorth> walking the dom is always fun :P 19:38:16 <frosch123> i would use regex on the html 19:38:25 <andythenorth> the horrible thing is, given a spare weekend I could actually write this in python :| 19:38:31 <andythenorth> it wouldn’t be good, but it would work 19:38:45 <frosch123> i would think it's a single-use software 19:43:54 <andythenorth> for 32 bug reports, manually processing them would be faster 19:43:58 <andythenorth> but reall dull 19:44:02 <andythenorth> really * 19:45:27 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6572 looks like 32 bit blitter + binary 19:46:15 <andythenorth> oh no, that’s a 64 bit binary 19:46:21 * andythenorth looking in wrong place :P 19:47:11 *** cosmobird has joined #openttd 19:48:52 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6430 32 bit blitter + binary 19:49:59 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6322/ 32 bit blitter + binary, AI Crash (comment by frosch123) 19:50:52 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6291 32 bit blitter + binary 19:51:14 <frosch123> 6322 says "out of memory" in the crash.log explicitly :) 19:51:28 <frosch123> i guess the question was whether ottd should catch ais causing out of memory 19:52:07 <andythenorth> I’ve been through all 32 FS ‘Crash:’, those are the ones that fit the criteria 19:52:14 * andythenorth could have made mistakes but eh 19:52:32 <frosch123> (in this case the ai tires to allocate 200mib, which is 10% of everything, and spritecache already takes like 50%) 19:53:00 <andythenorth> seems like there are four possibly related to same cause? 19:53:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: well, two of them already blame the ais in the comments :) 19:53:17 <andythenorth> yes 19:53:28 <andythenorth> should I link them? Or overkill? 19:54:20 <frosch123> keep 6322, link the rest as duplicate 19:54:38 <andythenorth> ok 19:57:13 <andythenorth> oh probably this as well? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6615 19:58:37 <frosch123> so we have a 32bit macosx user in 2017 :) 19:58:40 <andythenorth> seems OS X will segfault on OOM 19:58:47 <andythenorth> or so random google searches imply :P 19:58:54 <andythenorth> “andythenorth is not a programmer” 19:59:19 <andythenorth> also seems OS X will segfault if trying to allocate more than 3GB on a 32bit system 20:00:02 <frosch123> i guess since 6615 is recent, we could recommend to disable 32bpp blitter via openttd.cfg or command line 20:01:00 <andythenorth> I closed it as duplicate, should I reopen and request user tries 8bpp blitter? 20:01:15 <frosch123> no reopen, just a hint 20:01:30 <frosch123> i doubt the user would get that info from the other task 20:01:50 <frosch123> actuall,y the guy runs osx 10.12 20:02:04 <frosch123> so 10.12 does exist for 32bit? 20:02:22 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 20:04:08 <andythenorth> not afaik 20:04:27 <andythenorth> r 20:04:32 <andythenorth> https://www.quora.com/What-kind-of-OS-is-macOS-Sierra-32bit-or-64bit 20:04:34 <frosch123> well, 6615 says so 20:05:23 <andythenorth> internet says Apple dropped 32 bit CPU support in 2011, but they still support 32 bit apps until 10.14 20:07:04 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6605 is 32 bit blitter / 32 bit build, but looks like a different cause? 20:07:40 <frosch123> yes, if it is reproducible with the save :) 20:09:29 *** Alberth has left #openttd 20:11:46 <andythenorth> well 7 closed today 20:12:01 <andythenorth> this one is intriguing https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6564 20:12:11 <andythenorth> it’s rare to see a newgrf-related crash afaik 20:13:03 <andythenorth> I accidentally discovered it, because habitually I ignore the ‘newgrfs are missing’ message on game load 20:13:11 <andythenorth> due to…reasons 20:13:21 <andythenorth> then I bisected the grfs 20:14:29 *** adf88 has quit IRC 20:20:04 <andythenorth> hmm 20:20:19 <andythenorth> how is news posted to openttd.org? 20:20:40 <frosch123> via django 20:20:48 <frosch123> it's the only thing we use django for :p 20:21:11 <frosch123> hmm, actually the security advistor is also run via django, but we have not used that in years 20:21:36 <andythenorth> meh 20:21:52 <andythenorth> I wondered about posting some updates on state of dev 20:22:06 <andythenorth> but I don’t actually want community comments on it, in a thread 20:22:14 <andythenorth> so not forums 20:22:46 <andythenorth> do I read gitlog right, adf88 now has commit rights? 20:22:54 <frosch123> yes 20:23:47 <andythenorth> so 50% reduction in FS, multiple patches implemented, and new feature for visualising train length? o_O. And a new dev 20:25:02 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:25:28 <andythenorth> ^ that’s news eh 20:25:50 <andythenorth> a project that has good news more likely attracts more decent devs 20:26:56 <frosch123> do you want to blog? :) 20:27:05 <frosch123> tb writes a blog every few years 20:27:27 <frosch123> V used to write blogs on coop, but then switched to writing them at work 20:28:26 <andythenorth> I don’t want to blog no 20:28:35 <frosch123> anyway, i do not develop constantly enough to twitch-stream it :p 20:28:42 <andythenorth> but I would like to attract in 1-2 more devs, to make it all more fun 20:28:48 <frosch123> it's always 5 minuted that, 5 minutes this 20:29:09 <andythenorth> it would be nice to have someone doing little updates 20:29:27 *** gelignite has quit IRC 20:29:36 *** FLHerne_ has joined #openttd 20:29:49 <andythenorth> I would rather blog than work on the current web stack :P 20:30:43 <andythenorth> but most of all I should finish FIRS v3 20:30:47 <andythenorth> such FIRS 20:31:07 <andythenorth> otoh, if we fix Bananas I can fix the stupidity of FIRS names 20:31:08 <frosch123> write a newgrf newbie guide :) 20:31:12 <andythenorth> ugh 20:31:33 <andythenorth> I wondered about writing an updated contributing-to-openttd guide 20:31:40 <frosch123> or improve the ottd gui to easily import grf presets 20:31:54 <frosch123> and allow downloading the grfs for presets 20:32:19 <andythenorth> “FIRS Industry Replacement Set” 20:32:22 <andythenorth> “FIRS 2" 20:32:33 <andythenorth> “FIRS Industry Replacement Set 3" 20:32:38 <andythenorth> should have named it better eh? 20:32:56 <frosch123> well, bananas cannot rename stuff :) 20:33:05 <frosch123> one of its biggest downsides 20:34:08 <frosch123> i wonder, if we had a proper spec for bananas, what would it cost to hire some crud to implement it? 20:34:18 <frosch123> or would it end up like the factorio mod portal? 20:35:10 <frosch123> (factorio mod portal was written by some community member, then purchased by the devs, and is cursed since then) 20:35:32 * andythenorth looks at the repo 20:36:07 <andythenorth> so in theory, I could have commit access to extra/website, without having to have access to main repo? 20:36:27 <glx> hmm it's all or nothing I think 20:36:35 <andythenorth> otherwise I have to do everything in github, and file pull requests against one of you 20:36:51 <andythenorth> and there is no way I want or would get commit right on ottd 20:36:53 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 20:37:01 <glx> too dangerous ;) 20:37:10 <andythenorth> in so many ways 20:37:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: eints is also separate 20:37:31 <frosch123> there is zero reason for it to be in ottd svn 20:37:50 <andythenorth> it would not be a bad project to pioneer moving to github? 20:38:08 <andythenorth> I am surprised there are not more web dev contributors tbh 20:38:12 <andythenorth> although maybe I shouldn’t be 20:38:15 <frosch123> the question is whether it even makes sense to build on top of the old one 20:38:38 <andythenorth> I can’t comment until I get the VM, run it, and figure out how to SSH into it :P 20:38:50 <andythenorth> you’ve scared me with the master server commentary 20:39:08 <frosch123> bananas is fairly easy in comparison 20:40:19 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:40:26 <frosch123> the advantage of webapps is that you can mostly replace them and migrate the database once 20:40:35 <frosch123> you do not have to keep savegame compatibility :p 20:42:21 <glx> but sometimes the DB structure is a problem 20:42:45 <frosch123> like? 20:44:43 <_dp_> but in webapps there is IE to deal with :p 20:45:28 * andythenorth will be dropping IE 9 support in Jan 2018 :P 20:45:34 <andythenorth> only 2 years after microsoft 20:45:57 <andythenorth> frosch123 the front end…I’d just rebuild from scratch 20:46:05 <andythenorth> I’ve rebuilt websites and web apps n times 20:46:34 <andythenorth> I’m not a huge fan of technical docs, but is there a basic diagram for bananas? 20:46:45 <andythenorth> either the stack, or data flow? 20:46:53 * _dp_ rebuilt web apps many times too, some of them even successfully :p 20:46:53 <andythenorth> or calls between services 20:47:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is a database with iiirc a single table for all the content 20:47:39 <andythenorth> (1) how big is it 20:47:48 <frosch123> when stuff is added, the data is extracted in some safe way, tested with a few scripts, and then repackaged 20:47:50 <andythenorth> (2) are the binaries in the db, or blobs on disk? 20:48:10 <frosch123> can't remember 20:48:19 <frosch123> easy to check with the vm 20:48:31 <andythenorth> :P 20:49:12 <andythenorth> hey I didn’t lose it when I migrated laptop :) 20:49:42 <andythenorth> oh maybe I did, that’s just an old Virtualbox config I found 20:51:29 <andythenorth> it’s nice that VirtualBox is free 20:51:41 <andythenorth> I would otherwise pay as much as £8.99 for it 20:51:54 <peter1138> that much? 20:51:55 <peter1138> shocking 20:52:03 <andythenorth> I would not be happy at that price 20:52:55 <andythenorth> well it’s running frosch123 20:52:59 <andythenorth> how do I linux? :P 20:53:27 <frosch123> did your add port-forwarding? 20:53:33 <andythenorth> nah 20:53:40 <andythenorth> nor do I have the login password stored here 20:53:47 <frosch123> openttd/openttd 20:54:47 <andythenorth> in 20:54:55 <andythenorth> ls works :P 20:55:11 <frosch123> oh, 8 tables even 20:55:23 <LordAro> i may or may not have been playing with rewriting the website in django 1.11 20:55:32 <andythenorth> non-committal :P 20:55:39 <frosch123> LordAro: albert may have as well 20:55:45 <LordAro> hehe 20:55:48 <frosch123> you should agree on what actually needs doing 20:56:04 <LordAro> i've thrown everything out and started again :p 20:56:17 <LordAro> and am just taking what's relevant 20:56:28 * andythenorth has never djangoed 20:56:40 <_dp_> screw django, lets' rewrite in flask :p 20:56:47 <andythenorth> it’s probably just python views backed by models, with a templating language? 20:56:50 <andythenorth> and some dispatcher 20:56:57 <andythenorth> and a wsgi pipeline frontend? 20:57:03 <andythenorth> +1 to flask 20:57:13 <LordAro> yeah, i mean ultimately django is overkill for what the site currently does 20:57:28 <andythenorth> obviously picking the tech should come before having any actual goals :) 20:57:29 <LordAro> flask comes with its own issues though 20:57:43 <LordAro> i suspect it might be too minimalistic for this 20:58:02 <andythenorth> actually I am -1 to flask 20:58:11 <andythenorth> eints is bottle 20:58:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: i would start with the database layout 20:58:22 <blocage> you talk about the openttd web site ? 20:58:27 <frosch123> anyway, bananas content is on disk 20:58:29 <LordAro> andythenorth: simple.http,clearly 20:58:35 <frosch123> database only contains links 20:58:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: usually I start from core entities in the site => base classes => data structure 20:58:56 <andythenorth> but eh, I live in a world of python objects 20:59:06 <andythenorth> it’s all just tables in sql land 20:59:09 <_dp_> LordAro, how is it "too minimalistic", it can do pretty much everything django can, you just pick separate libraries instead of bundled ones 20:59:22 <andythenorth> are we going to have a framework-off? 20:59:27 <andythenorth> wake me up when it’s done :P 20:59:41 <LordAro> _dp_: i've had bad experiences with those separate libraries 21:00:02 <andythenorth> the currently winning python combo for apps is pyramid + postgres 21:00:20 <andythenorth> website agencies seem to favour django, it’s probably doing more out of the box for them 21:00:35 <andythenorth> everyone hacking their own little thing seems to like bottle or flask 21:00:38 <_dp_> LordAro, I had bad experience trying to make django work with those separate libraries :p 21:00:45 <LordAro> hehe 21:01:14 * andythenorth prefers a compile to static html if at all possible 21:01:39 <LordAro> aye 21:02:25 <andythenorth> the master server does what? 21:02:32 <LordAro> there are bits of the site that are dynamic though 21:02:40 <andythenorth> handshakes with clients and routes requests to appropriate services? 21:03:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: there are two parts of master server 21:03:43 <frosch123> one is contacted by the servers to register them 21:04:02 <frosch123> the other part queries the servers on return, to see their status and query newgrf for the website 21:04:25 <frosch123> anyway, no need to touch any of that currently 21:04:42 <andythenorth> is it isolated behind some API> 21:04:43 <andythenorth> ? 21:04:57 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 21:04:59 <frosch123> it runs without django 21:05:08 <_dp_> I bet it's isolated behind some db :p 21:05:10 <andythenorth> how does django talk to it? Or not ? 21:05:18 <frosch123> through some db iirc 21:05:27 <frosch123> django just reads 21:05:28 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 21:05:43 <frosch123> actually, likely plain python without django 21:05:53 <frosch123> just read db contents 21:06:28 * andythenorth needs a stack diagram 21:07:19 <andythenorth> will I make any sense of it by ls-ing dirs in the VM? 21:07:26 <andythenorth> that’s how I usually find my way around web apps 21:07:35 <frosch123> start with the readme :) 21:08:11 <andythenorth> I’ve crashed the VM :) 21:08:25 <LordAro> that took you less than a minute 21:08:30 <andythenorth> pretty good eh? 21:08:53 <frosch123> you crashed the vm without crashing your whole machine? 21:09:04 <andythenorth> resized the virtualbox window 21:09:11 <andythenorth> sounds like our bugs too eh? 21:09:19 <frosch123> it has been long since vbox messed something up, but if, then it took the whole machine with it 21:10:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess you could also read musad source 21:10:15 <andythenorth> so to develop in a VM I have to set up some kind of mount point on OS X 21:10:21 * andythenorth re-phrases 21:10:28 <frosch123> it only contains the base business logic without the gui mess 21:10:33 <andythenorth> so to develop in a VM, I have to…google stuff 21:10:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: i usually configure port forwarding for ssh and http 21:11:06 <frosch123> then login via ssh to the box 21:11:12 <frosch123> or mount via sshfs 21:11:48 <Wolf01> Back 21:12:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: i believe that is also written in the readme :p 21:12:30 <andythenorth> it is 21:12:52 <andythenorth> I just have to translate it into OS X, and be sure I’m not breaking our infosec policy 21:13:16 <andythenorth> stuff 21:14:23 <LordAro> frosch123: on a related subject, the ovh sponsor html stuff is a horrid flash thing, do you think you could dig up something a bit more modern? 21:14:48 <frosch123> LordAro: well, we have not been sponsored for 2 years, just noone removed it 21:14:48 *** blocage has quit IRC 21:14:58 <LordAro> oh 21:15:00 <LordAro> lol. 21:16:19 <andythenorth> shall we just move it all to wix? o_O https://www.wix.com 21:16:38 <frosch123> i hate their advertisement 21:16:52 <frosch123> squarespace has at least nicer ads 21:17:03 <frosch123> anyway, nope :p 21:17:44 <LordAro> andythenorth: apparently it generates horrendous sites 21:18:04 <andythenorth> I am not sold, not even at £free 21:18:13 <andythenorth> how do I get out of readme.txt? 21:18:23 <andythenorth> I typed ‘edit readme.txt' 21:18:23 <frosch123> how did you get into? 21:18:27 <andythenorth> :q isn’t working 21:18:50 <frosch123> esc :q! 21:18:53 <andythenorth> ctrl-c :quit 21:19:32 <frosch123> i watched a gitlab video recently 21:19:53 <andythenorth> hmm 21:19:59 <andythenorth> stuck in vim :P 21:20:02 <andythenorth> ‘recording' 21:20:02 <frosch123> they demonstrated how to login to the deployment vm 21:20:13 <frosch123> which was essentially a shell in a webbroweser 21:20:21 <frosch123> and then the guy used vi to edit something 21:20:52 <frosch123> so you had vi in a webbrowser tab :p 21:21:31 <andythenorth> ach 21:21:45 <andythenorth> reset the machine :P 21:21:53 <andythenorth> life is too short for vim 21:22:03 <andythenorth> or finding out what my keyboard is bound too in the VM 21:22:05 <andythenorth> one or the other 21:22:24 <frosch123> oh, true, it may have a german keyboard layout :p 21:22:28 <frosch123> even more reason to login via ssh 21:23:02 <frosch123> so ":" is shift+"." 21:23:04 <andythenorth> :P 21:23:08 <andythenorth> ha 21:23:41 <andythenorth> that works 21:24:51 <andythenorth> so what do we need to do again? 21:24:55 <andythenorth> - new bananas 21:24:57 <andythenorth> - new website 21:25:00 <Wolf01> Get me less bored 21:25:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: only "new bananas" 21:25:26 <andythenorth> with features? 21:25:37 <frosch123> yes, all those listed yesterday 21:25:42 <andythenorth> do we need to reskin? 21:25:45 <andythenorth> can we avoid that? 21:25:56 <andythenorth> reskinning is like my glamorous day job 21:25:58 <Wolf01> "openttd:" protocol... just kidding 21:25:59 <frosch123> keep the bananas, noone cares about the rest 21:26:08 <frosch123> make it bootstrap again 21:26:09 <andythenorth> and anyone else doing the skin will likely annoy me :p 21:26:21 <andythenorth> I need to learn bootstrap 4 anyway 21:26:28 <andythenorth> I am stuck in 2 and 3 land 21:26:51 <_dp_> is 4 out yet? 21:27:20 <andythenorth> they’ve flipped the main docs over to it https://getbootstrap.com/ 21:27:25 <andythenorth> so I think so 21:27:25 <Wolf01> Man... the one I used last was 2 21:27:35 * andythenorth exploring 21:27:56 <_dp_> idk, still looks alpha to me 21:28:08 <Wolf01> Alpha 6 21:28:19 <Wolf01> There is beta too 21:28:29 <andythenorth> eh it’s all gone flexbox? 21:28:32 <_dp_> I'm waiting for that damn thing for more than a year already 21:29:01 <_dp_> oh, beta indeed 21:29:03 <andythenorth> flexbox is likely 5 years in my future :( 21:29:43 <Wolf01> Flexbox seem the fashion of the moment, and I didn't even used that yet, I usually try all that new stuff 21:29:52 <_dp_> " we finally have our first beta release of Bootstrap 4. In that time, we’ve broken all the things at least twenty-seven times over ..." 21:29:55 <_dp_> sounds promising xD 21:30:05 <andythenorth> yeah, no flexbox for me http://caniuse.com/#feat=flexbox 21:30:18 <LordAro> F 21:30:49 <andythenorth> seriously, who is using flexbox anywhere if there is broken IE support? 21:31:10 <andythenorth> presumably mac-using hipster JS developers? 21:31:18 * andythenorth combines stereotypes :P 21:31:56 <Wolf01> ShittIE still used more than Edge :( 21:33:24 <_dp_> I think last web thing I was doing only worked in alpha ff xD 21:37:06 <andythenorth> is bed should I 21:37:42 <andythenorth> bye 21:37:43 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:38:53 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 21:51:17 *** Arveen2 has joined #openttd 21:51:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 21:51:23 *** glx_ has joined #openttd 21:51:50 *** Lejving_ has joined #openttd 21:53:49 *** milek7 has quit IRC 21:53:55 *** rellig has quit IRC 21:54:21 *** glx is now known as Guest3650 21:54:21 *** glx_ is now known as glx 21:54:36 *** neverpanic has joined #openttd 21:54:49 *** milek7 has joined #openttd 21:55:19 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 21:57:46 *** Guest3650 has quit IRC 21:57:51 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 21:58:01 *** Arveen has quit IRC 21:58:11 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:58:31 *** Lejving has quit IRC 22:08:13 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:11:43 *** cosmobird has quit IRC 22:15:44 *** neverpanic has quit IRC 22:19:49 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:26:48 *** keoz has joined #openttd 22:43:32 <Wolf01> $friend says that running openttd.exe -n ip, it freeze at newgrf scanning 22:45:22 *** mescalito has quit IRC 23:11:38 *** Wolf03 has joined #openttd 23:11:38 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest3662 23:11:38 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 23:14:46 *** Guest3662 has quit IRC 23:22:58 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 23:38:18 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC 23:48:57 *** Biolunar_ has quit IRC