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00:45:24 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 00:51:11 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 00:58:58 *** Speedy has quit IRC 00:59:32 *** glx has quit IRC 01:22:26 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 02:29:59 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 03:41:04 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 04:38:21 *** Cubey has quit IRC 04:50:56 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 05:12:06 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 05:27:42 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 06:07:54 *** longrin has joined #openttd 06:27:37 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:27:40 <andythenorth> o/ 06:27:43 <andythenorth> V453000: such 06:27:48 <andythenorth> trees 06:34:58 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:00:15 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:05:00 *** blocage has joined #openttd 07:13:54 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:17:57 *** blocage has quit IRC 07:24:26 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:59:36 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:00:31 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 08:03:48 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 08:03:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 08:06:26 *** lastmikoi has quit IRC 08:06:40 *** lastmikoi has joined #openttd 08:08:51 *** tokai has quit IRC 08:44:51 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:57:07 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 09:17:20 *** Defaultti has joined #openttd 09:19:11 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:24:46 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 09:36:22 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 09:52:59 *** dustinm` has quit IRC 09:56:27 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 09:56:37 <Wolf01> o/ 09:56:47 <andythenorth> lo Wolf01 09:59:52 *** dustinm` has joined #openttd 10:10:40 <V453000> andythenorth I think I have some infection 10:10:46 <V453000> optimizing render times 10:10:55 <V453000> by overhauling the whole rendering script to do horrible things 10:11:01 <andythenorth> such automation 10:11:06 <V453000> going to save them seconds 10:11:50 <andythenorth> bbl 10:11:50 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 10:22:40 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 10:59:05 *** ToBeFree has joined #openttd 10:59:58 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 11:07:06 *** orudge has quit IRC 11:13:29 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 11:31:21 *** orudge has joined #openttd 11:37:04 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 11:55:03 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 11:58:49 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 12:29:48 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 12:29:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 12:29:52 <Alberth> o/ 12:32:32 <andythenorth> lo Alberth 12:34:51 <Wolf01> o/ 12:57:34 *** gelignite has quit IRC 12:58:02 *** argoneus has quit IRC 12:58:11 *** argoneus has joined #openttd 13:08:40 *** ToBeFree has quit IRC 13:34:33 *** Flygon has quit IRC 13:37:07 <supermop> yo 13:37:15 <Wolf01> o/ 13:37:26 <supermop> good morning wolf 13:41:51 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 13:42:46 *** trendynick has joined #openttd 13:52:18 *** idl0r has quit IRC 14:06:49 <V453000> nice, 5 times faster rendering with new script =D 14:08:05 <supermop> now i need to play a game where i can buy one of every RV so i can check how they look in vehicle list 14:08:24 <V453000> wot 14:08:32 <V453000> just play with vehicles_never_expire on ? 14:09:57 <supermop> yeah 14:10:03 <supermop> still need to buy each one 14:10:20 <supermop> to check how they look in vehicle list vs purchase menu 14:38:38 <supermop> hmm japan set + termite means you get the EMUs and electric locomotives 14:38:50 <supermop> but no diesel locomotives or wagons 14:38:59 <supermop> or DMUs 14:40:29 <supermop> hmm 14:40:55 <supermop> it seems that with termite electrified NG and regular NG are not compatible 14:45:15 <supermop> also this game is just to check RV list sprites, but here I am getting bothered by my EMU options 14:46:48 <andythenorth> supermop: sounds like a termite bug 14:49:29 <supermop> now i have to buy EMUs using only the head unit $$$ 14:49:55 <supermop> or could convert this line to shinkansen 14:51:48 <supermop> just pulled all the wires down 15:05:08 <andythenorth> Wolf01: did you run into this saveload issue also? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1192342#p1192342 15:05:32 <Wolf01> Yes 15:06:36 <Wolf01> I can't understand why it happen, all the vehicles after load have 0Kph max speed 15:07:18 <Wolf01> And clearly it crashes with division by 0 when calculating the effects 15:09:03 <Wolf01> The other crashes are new to me 15:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> a callback gone wrong with not-properly-saved data? 15:10:55 <Wolf01> Could be 15:26:35 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 15:30:00 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 15:31:56 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I tried with different grf combinations and always crashes, so it's not a grf problem 15:38:35 <Eddi|zuHause> if it only happens on reload, you might have incorrectly cleared some cache, or failed to reinitialize it 15:39:45 <Wolf01> But why it doesn't happen to andy or frosch? 15:39:59 <Eddi|zuHause> heisenbug 15:41:20 <andythenorth> not windows? 15:41:32 <andythenorth> both the reports of it are for windows 15:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> today i spent two hours debugging an issue where the fill levels of tanks were incorrect 15:42:40 <andythenorth> under or over? 15:42:41 <andythenorth> :P 15:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> turned out it was missing some () in the formula for volume 15:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> something along the lines of "l*b1*h1-b2*h2" instead of "l*(b1*h1-b2*h2)" 15:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> with b1/b2/h1/h2 being some complex formulas 15:52:55 <Wolf01> The only thing that changed is the introduction of a constant in saveload 15:53:25 <Wolf01> To give a meaning to the version number used in afterload 15:58:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I used to get mocked for putting parentheses into formulas :P 15:58:41 <andythenorth> instead of committing the operation rules to memory, and parsing them every time I read a line 15:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i told the other guy who was involved with writing the code that the formulas are unnecessarily complex 16:00:51 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 16:08:24 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 16:15:14 <Alberth> assign the formulas to temporary variables 16:18:49 *** Progman has joined #openttd 16:19:21 <andythenorth> lambdas 16:23:57 <Wolf01> Mmmmh... mmmh... I have a problem reading the type of a vehicle (road or tram), I get the subtype instead 16:28:51 <supermop> hmm need to remove exhaust pipe switch from 1900 and 1910 ish trucks 16:29:08 <supermop> dont fit on the old cabs 16:35:57 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 16:35:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 16:39:34 <Wolf01> Ok, when loading a savegame the roadtype info is broken 16:42:16 <Wolf01> Uhm, no, I don't think that is the case, the default roadtypes have 0 max speed anyway 16:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so the data is reset somewhere and then not refilled with proper values 16:43:26 <Wolf01> No, I think it gets the wrong value for the cached max speed 16:48:10 <__ln__> so... should i buy cheap flights to Los Angeles in january..march? 16:48:42 <supermop> for a 3 month stay? 16:48:53 <supermop> i mean LA is probably fine no matter when you go 16:49:01 <__ln__> no, max 1 week stay, but during those months 16:49:01 <supermop> unless you want to go swimming 16:49:21 <supermop> or if you want to spend time up in mountains 16:49:35 <supermop> how cheap? 16:50:05 <__ln__> 398 € 16:50:15 <supermop> holy shit 16:50:18 <supermop> where from? 16:51:00 <__ln__> from finland, via sweden 16:51:16 <supermop> you are pretty much obligated to go at that price 16:51:22 <Wolf01> Ok, the vcache.cached_max_speed is not restored 16:51:34 <supermop> especially if it means escaping the arctic dark 16:52:27 <__ln__> yeah, obligated was what i felt also last year when i bought finland->new york + washington dc->finland for 355€ 16:54:44 <supermop> what airline is this 16:55:24 <supermop> hmm short trailer still looks too long and modern on the old road trains 16:55:36 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 16:57:10 <__ln__> supermop: Scandinavian Airlines, https://www.flysas.com/ 16:58:41 <supermop> nice 16:58:59 <supermop> well you'll need to find a cheap airbnb, and maybe rent a car 16:59:07 <supermop> but otherwise i'd say do it 17:00:06 <__ln__> i'm seriously considering it indeed 17:01:20 <supermop> im either going to do vietnam or honolulu with my wife's family around then, but i've yet to see good prices 17:01:43 *** TrueBrain_ has joined #openttd 17:01:49 <Wolf01> I can't track the source of the problem, vehicles from vanilla work, vehicles from the same grf worked, no code was changed 17:02:31 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:02:32 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:03:37 *** TrueBrain-Bot has quit IRC 17:04:33 <Wolf01> I need frosch here, or someone which can understand where the problem is 17:05:40 *** TrueBrain has quit IRC 17:15:02 *** orudge` has quit IRC 17:15:09 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 17:15:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 17:16:20 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:16:30 <Wolf01> Quak 17:16:40 <planetmaker> quok ;) 17:18:53 <frosch123> hoin 17:19:38 <Wolf01> frosch123: Newgrf vehicles don't restore vcache.cached_max_speed like vanilla ones in NRT 17:22:08 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd 17:25:46 *** TrueBrain_ has quit IRC 17:27:45 <frosch123> Wolf01: it is recomputed in vehicle_sl.cpp:402 17:28:38 <Wolf01> Eh, also gcache.track_max_speed is 0 17:30:18 *** longrin has quit IRC 17:30:58 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 17:33:16 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:34:43 <Alberth> o/ 17:35:28 <andythenorth> hi 17:37:11 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 17:38:19 <Wolf01> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/22/saudi-arabia-accidentally-prints-textbook-showing-yoda-sitting/ wow 17:48:36 <__ln__> cool 17:52:27 <andythenorth> 1. how to fix FIRS Steeltown? 17:52:42 <V453000> :D 17:52:45 <andythenorth> 2. I need some fast British trains inventing to suit the Horse rules 17:52:51 <V453000> :D 17:52:53 <andythenorth> must be plausible fake 17:52:55 <V453000> :D 17:53:04 <andythenorth> SLUG is not the answer btw 17:54:12 <V453000> shyt 17:56:32 <V453000> andythenorth: 5 times faster rendering times :P 17:56:35 <V453000> iz win 17:56:51 <andythenorth> totally 17:56:52 <andythenorth> always 17:56:55 <andythenorth> go for 10 times next 17:57:04 <V453000> won't be so easy 17:57:12 <V453000> aka not going to happen :P 17:59:17 <andythenorth> maybe Horse schema all wrong 17:59:32 <andythenorth> started from slow steam locos and worked up 17:59:42 <andythenorth> maybe I should start from fastest train and work backwards 18:00:01 <andythenorth> Horse all bollocks again 18:04:13 <V453000> I started wondering if I should do 16/8 so don't worry about bollocks 18:14:11 <V453000> sooo fuck palms? 18:14:42 <V453000> 100% official forum comments agree that they are WRONG 18:15:03 <andythenorth> Alberth killed palms? 18:15:04 <andythenorth> :P 18:15:21 <V453000> well I agree 18:15:46 <V453000> desert cacti don't look like cacti though 18:15:49 <V453000> the fuck yo 18:15:52 <V453000> :D 18:16:38 <frosch123> V453000: the palms look emo 18:16:46 <frosch123> you should emphasise that even more 18:16:56 <frosch123> make it a sad tree 18:17:08 <frosch123> a tree that wishes it would be a slug 18:17:15 <V453000> gay 18:18:34 <andythenorth> V453000 offends 10% of channel, statistically 18:18:42 <V453000> nice 18:27:23 <frosch123> does that assume 100% male? 18:27:40 <V453000> isn't not that far from reality :P 18:28:04 <frosch123> well, most are probably bots and dead bouncers 18:34:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: stats are complicated eh https://daliaresearch.com/counting-the-lgbt-population-6-of-europeans-identify-as-lgbt/ 18:34:14 <andythenorth> varies a lot even in Europe 18:34:57 <andythenorth> UK, more male than female self-identify as LGBT 18:35:12 <andythenorth> other european countries tend to reverse that 18:35:50 *** orudge` has quit IRC 18:35:54 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 18:35:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 18:37:17 <andythenorth> hmm 10% comes from https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/05/10-per-cent-population-gay-alfred-kinsey-statistics 18:43:24 <V453000> sooo spikey cactus pink/green/brown thing is fav? 18:43:37 <V453000> I have 1 more ID to occupy after ditching the purple hanging down plant 18:43:47 <V453000> so one is getting a clone friend :D 18:44:13 <frosch123> do unicorns qualify as spikey? 18:44:27 <frosch123> also, do you have something resembling a durian? 18:46:36 <V453000> you're still on your durian fetish? 18:51:19 <andythenorth> ok Horse is now just one train 18:51:39 <andythenorth> 300mph, 10,000hp, 250t all cargos in 8/8 18:51:43 <andythenorth> winning 18:51:58 <andythenorth> ultimate 18:52:16 <V453000> what have I done 18:52:26 <V453000> btw 10k hp ain't enough for 300mph :P 18:52:48 <andythenorth> some kind of non-linear crap with HP<->speed? 18:53:05 <andythenorth> 3000hp is good for 100mph 18:53:17 <V453000> yes 18:53:31 <V453000> high speeds need fuckloads, especially TE related railtypes 18:53:56 <V453000> I don't know the exact function curve but from observation and experience yes 18:53:59 <V453000> look at nuts is all I can say :) 18:57:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you have space to name an engine "nut cracker"? 18:57:33 <andythenorth> maybe 18:57:37 <andythenorth> sounds narrow gauge :P 18:58:30 <V453000> XD 18:58:45 <V453000> hm I don't have any dead horse engines 18:58:59 <frosch123> i remember some zombiehorse 18:59:14 <V453000> yeah nuts has some horse related engines 18:59:23 <V453000> new set doesn't though 18:59:37 <V453000> well new set has about as much as CETS has graphics, but ... :) 18:59:49 <frosch123> so you are almost done? 18:59:54 <V453000> XD 18:59:58 <V453000> n 19:00:02 <frosch123> :) 19:00:33 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 19:01:12 <V453000> I've reworked the engine table multiple times already and today I even started wondering if they should be 8/8 or 16/8 19:03:45 <V453000> because 16/8 engines do have a lot of room for loooking badass 19:03:58 <V453000> like the superstrong and doombringer classes in nuts 19:04:49 <V453000> hm!' 19:04:53 <V453000> shit. 19:04:59 <andythenorth> meh 19:05:05 <V453000> 16/8 would mean double the amount of engine sprites 19:05:09 <frosch123> as long as there spawn multiple smoke effects, long engines are fine 19:05:10 <V453000> which is kind of alright 19:05:13 <andythenorth> @calc 125-15 19:05:13 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 110 19:05:18 <andythenorth> @calc 110-15 19:05:18 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 95 19:05:23 <andythenorth> Horse all fail 19:05:26 <V453000> XD 19:05:40 <andythenorth> non-regular speed increases per generation 19:05:41 <andythenorth> such wrong 19:05:45 <frosch123> i never used the super strong engines in nuts, multiple strong were nicer 19:06:04 <frosch123> though i guess that broke when you went for 16/8 everything 19:06:08 <andythenorth> must fux 19:06:09 <andythenorth> fix * 19:06:14 <V453000> haha frosch123 19:07:19 <V453000> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 19:07:26 <frosch123> i know that titanic only had fake chimneys, but i think trains should just have as many 19:07:30 <V453000> my plan doesn't take into account dual headed trains 19:07:32 <V453000> G_G 19:08:07 <V453000> maybe dual heading only express trains makes sense? 19:08:19 * andythenorth thinking same 19:08:26 <V453000> shit that helps a lot 19:08:31 <frosch123> well, i still need an excuse to allow articulated dual-headed engines 19:08:36 * andythenorth putting in some dual-headed engines 19:08:41 <V453000> I don't need that frosch123 :P 19:08:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: “not needed" 19:09:00 <V453000> oh yeah plan doesn't work 19:09:09 <andythenorth> also, for v2 Horse, I have deleted all articulation, so I can use dual-head :P 19:09:09 <V453000> FJSDIGFUCK 19:09:18 <andythenorth> V453000: just make road vehicle set 19:09:19 <andythenorth> easier 19:09:22 <V453000> N 19:09:23 <andythenorth> less roster bollocks 19:09:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: i thought dual-headed is for cabage and cucumber cars 19:09:35 <V453000> is same bollocks with less tools so it can't be made more awesome 19:09:52 <andythenorth> cucumber? o_O 19:10:04 * andythenorth fixed numbers 19:10:21 <andythenorth> mph: 65, 80, 95, 110, 125, 140 19:10:27 <V453000> chameleon trains already work as articulated and dual headed 19:10:33 <andythenorth> and maybe some kind of super-speed crap at 180mph 19:10:35 <andythenorth> meh 19:10:37 <V453000> it just tells the wagons to camouflage as an engine 19:10:41 <V453000> easy 19:11:04 <V453000> I guess I will just do the same thing 19:12:41 <V453000> unless 19:12:47 <V453000> shit I'm overcomplicating it all 19:12:58 <V453000> k plan ruined 19:13:35 <V453000> eh ok got solution I guess 19:14:19 <V453000> nvm ruined 19:15:02 <frosch123> anything special in czech rep today? 19:15:13 <V453000> idk? :D 19:15:17 <V453000> I don't read the news 19:15:22 <frosch123> why was there a thursday facts? 19:15:30 <V453000> what 19:15:37 <frosch123> or is the date wrong :p 19:15:51 <V453000> yeah just wrong date because kovarex doesn't even read callendar 19:17:24 <supermop> andythenorth: old road trains: short wagons, or don't exist at all 19:19:25 <andythenorth> short 19:19:34 <andythenorth> all 4/8 19:19:40 <andythenorth> 16/8 total 19:19:56 <andythenorth> eh 19:20:06 <andythenorth> 125mph -> 186mph big stupid jump 19:20:08 <andythenorth> but realism 19:20:10 <andythenorth> also players want 19:20:26 <andythenorth> how can I do it with a new railtype? 19:20:31 * andythenorth totally fails to understand railtypes 19:20:53 <andythenorth> All Railtypes Must Be Compatible 19:20:57 <andythenorth> due to conversion 19:21:00 <andythenorth> but how? 19:21:23 * andythenorth totally confused 19:21:35 <supermop> https://imgur.com/a/qBjZV 19:21:38 *** trendynick has quit IRC 19:21:47 <supermop> 5 and 6 are 'old' trucks 19:21:58 <supermop> with the 'short' trailers 19:22:07 <andythenorth> shorter 19:22:10 <andythenorth> and wheels at front 19:22:40 <supermop> the oldest rigid trucks have a shorter body, so i can composite new tiny trailers from those 19:24:09 <V453000> ok tropic done tomorrow 19:24:11 <V453000> toyland might be fast 19:24:14 <V453000> just 9 types 19:24:18 <V453000> will go full retard mode 19:24:22 <supermop> im making dollies for the road train p-menu sprites 19:24:36 <supermop> maybe i can be arsed to add to the actual trucks 19:25:25 <supermop> https://imgur.com/a/T69fb 19:25:39 <supermop> 7 is a rigid truck with short body 19:25:46 <supermop> can use those 19:26:59 <frosch123> wait what? you can have terminus stations in f? 19:27:42 <V453000> what the shit frosch123 ? 19:27:52 <V453000> "of course" ? :D 19:28:01 <frosch123> is that just my ottd mindset that trains can't reverse? :p 19:28:34 <V453000> in openttd trains reverse? :0 19:28:36 * V453000 is lost 19:30:43 <andythenorth> nobody knows railtypes :| 19:33:00 <V453000> can I read which vehID is behind a wagon? 19:33:07 <V453000> so that it can adjust sprites based on it? 19:33:27 <V453000> that should be doable, right? 19:33:39 <Wolf01> I need a backup plan for this evening 19:33:47 <frosch123> V453000: yes 19:34:05 <V453000> knew it! :D thanks 19:34:09 <frosch123> it needs your favorite var[] magic though :) 19:34:13 <V453000> I'm going to do horrible thing with it 19:34:16 <V453000> yeah I thought so 19:34:26 <V453000> I'll just force myself to learn it 19:34:42 <V453000> might be less of an obstacle now with some scripting experience 19:36:03 <Wolf01> frosch123: yes, you can have terminus stations in F, you only need to make trains doubleheaded, or you can drive trains manually but going backwards is slow 19:36:28 <V453000> you can have octopus station if you drive manually XD 19:36:29 <frosch123> i knew that i can drive backwards manually 19:36:36 <frosch123> i just did not get the dual-headed thing 19:37:03 <V453000> I'm just piling hacks on top of hacks and my plan is now saved again :D 19:37:06 <andythenorth> V453000: I just deleted all the next-vehicle var stuff in Horse, so you can have mine 19:37:10 <andythenorth> it’s spare now 19:37:21 <V453000> :D 19:40:48 <andythenorth> how can I implement high speed railtype? 19:41:42 <andythenorth> is there a way to make it compatible with RAIL / ELRL, but keep RAIL / ELRL trains off it? 19:44:15 <frosch123> what? 19:44:29 <frosch123> what is compatible to what? 19:44:36 <V453000> do steamers really need tenders in my set? 19:45:03 <supermop> andythenorth: huh 19:45:06 <V453000> kind of do 19:45:25 <Wolf01> He doesn't want steam, diesel, slow electric trains travel on high speed 19:45:26 <V453000> ok 24/8 19:45:34 <frosch123> currently i like using tank wagons to transport 500° water from reator to outposts 19:45:53 <frosch123> ie.e. you can replace the tender with a tank wagon 19:46:07 <andythenorth> what Wolf01 said 19:46:08 <supermop> andythenorth: but you do want fast trains to go on Rail? 19:46:21 <andythenorth> I don’t understand how to make it work 19:46:27 <andythenorth> railtypes all have to be compatible 19:46:38 <andythenorth> due to convert and auto-replace 19:46:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: but hight speed can travel on RAIL? 19:47:04 <andythenorth> how else can you prevent stuck trains when player drags convert over whole map? 19:47:26 <frosch123> who would do that? :p 19:47:31 <andythenorth> V453000 19:47:34 <frosch123> are you targeting stupid players? 19:47:39 <andythenorth> ^^ 19:47:40 <frosch123> or competitive ones? 19:47:54 <V453000> just don't prevent it? 19:47:55 <andythenorth> dunno, I’m totally confused about it :P 19:47:58 <V453000> fuck they broke it? 19:48:04 <supermop> andythenorth: also what about steam trains getting stuck if you make everything HSR 19:48:11 <V453000> a solution is providing universal railtype so you can convert whole map to it and unstop all trains 19:48:24 <V453000> I think that usually solves anything 19:48:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: if people replace all tracks at once, they should use tracks with date-dependant graphics 19:48:36 <V453000> admittedly I don't do that often 19:48:44 <V453000> hm, 32/8 engines? 19:48:54 <andythenorth> yes 19:48:56 <frosch123> V453000: don't do csd set 19:48:59 <andythenorth> with cargo capacity V453000 19:49:03 <V453000> they do that shit? 19:49:18 <frosch123> csd has some 5 tile articulated things 19:49:26 <andythenorth> so Horse needs to include universal railtype too? :| 19:49:26 <V453000> haha 19:49:28 <V453000> worry not 19:49:29 <frosch123> which represent some very specific train setup 19:49:32 <andythenorth> but what is point of railtypes then 19:49:34 <V453000> I'll probably fit it into 16/8 19:49:41 <V453000> but drawing out a long badass steamer is just great 19:49:41 <andythenorth> V453000: 24/8 is good 19:49:58 <V453000> no andythenorth 24/8 is fucking trash, you should know better 19:50:01 <V453000> gg 19:50:04 <V453000> victory 19:50:26 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/csd.png <- V453000: all three of them as single things 19:51:10 <V453000> well I am since forever saying that csd set is bullcrap 19:51:11 <frosch123> they essentially removed wagons, you purchase the whole train at once 19:51:29 <V453000> don't worry I'm not going to do anything stupid like that 19:51:30 <frosch123> maybe andy should do that :) 19:51:42 <V453000> the long part will always be only engine and all engines will be the same length 19:51:53 <andythenorth> V453000: this one isn’t even fake http://sbiii.com/trshdpix/15vgn100.jpg 19:52:00 <V453000> I'm not making NUTS2 but I learned things I won't just throw away :P 19:52:08 <andythenorth> ^ 24/8 19:52:18 <V453000> not that great 19:52:23 <V453000> it doesn't even look as a unit properly 19:52:27 <V453000> seems too much like 3 19:53:07 <V453000> OH DAMN 19:53:08 <andythenorth> yeah, but RL is never as good as faked 19:53:09 <V453000> this is going to work 19:53:11 <V453000> YES 19:53:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: ‘purchase the whole train at once’ o_O 19:53:30 <andythenorth> works great for trams 19:53:40 <andythenorth> ~all Hog trams same tile length 19:55:15 <andythenorth> V453000: 40/8 http://sbiii.com/bw-gapix/hugebot3.jpg 19:55:30 <V453000> that's the shit andy 19:55:40 <V453000> T H E 19:55:53 <V453000> that's just awesome 19:56:00 <V453000> now make it 16/8 19:56:18 <V453000> guess I have to make vehicles so slim that you will have to zoom in to x4 to see them properly ;P 19:56:45 *** Alberth has left #openttd 19:56:47 <V453000> nah this thing is so long it smells of compensation 19:57:06 <frosch123> narrow gauge? 19:57:26 <V453000> no, normal gauge but just made smaller 19:57:26 <andythenorth> ah stuff like https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6617 19:57:30 <V453000> basically making tiles longer 19:58:02 <V453000> andythenorth: that's what autoreplace and upgrade trains button in depot is for? 19:58:07 <andythenorth> how is railtype upgrading supposed to work? 19:58:08 <V453000> yeah you can't do it from the map but... 19:58:10 * andythenorth never does it 19:58:37 <andythenorth> I can only understand railtypes that are 100% different (except for electrified / not types) 19:59:08 <andythenorth> big puzzles 19:59:52 <andythenorth> solution will be found 20:00:11 <Wolf01> andythenorth: the solution is to give orders to slow train so they won't use the fast tracks 20:00:42 <andythenorth> but how? o_O 20:00:47 <andythenorth> waypoints? 20:00:48 <Wolf01> Waypoints 20:00:55 <andythenorth> not programmable signals? 20:00:58 <Wolf01> I use them a lot in TF 20:01:05 <andythenorth> railtypes can’t have a min. speed? 20:01:06 <frosch123> andythenorth: doesn't jgrpp have route restrictions? 20:01:16 <andythenorth> maybe, I found some magic signals 20:01:29 <andythenorth> didn’t understand them much, UI was odd 20:03:04 <andythenorth> what is problem? 20:03:22 <andythenorth> problem is slow railtype -> fast railtype? 20:03:38 <andythenorth> eh, not, no speed limits used 20:03:52 <Wolf01> Problem is: compatibility works x <-> y 20:03:54 <andythenorth> problem is player mass-converts track, all old trains stuck 20:04:01 <andythenorth> also problem is broken auto-replace 20:04:14 <andythenorth> and no consist management 20:04:23 <andythenorth> consist management solves all known problems 20:04:32 <andythenorth> except for the new ones it will create :P 20:09:53 <Wolf01> Try to fix NRT 20:11:18 <andythenorth> was the ‘ char broken in original TTD? 20:11:36 <andythenorth> for e.g. "’T.I.M’ (Electric)” 20:13:07 * andythenorth looking at original trains for inspiration 20:14:18 <V453000> that's how far he's gotten 20:14:58 <andythenorth> basically it was just solved in 1994 20:15:03 <andythenorth> just needs better graphics 20:15:34 <V453000> 1994 graphics are still best 20:15:49 <andythenorth> also how do I autoreplace AsiaStar to monorail? 20:15:51 * andythenorth confused 20:15:54 <V453000> and vanilla vehicles give no variety really 20:15:55 <V453000> you don't 20:16:02 <V453000> that's why grfs like universal rail exist 20:16:14 <andythenorth> universal rail is stupidest thing ever 20:16:20 <andythenorth> why not just have ‘one railtype' 20:16:30 <V453000> feel of big progression step 20:16:32 <V453000> is awesome 20:16:50 <V453000> even with the universal purr in nuts, having monorail and maglev is great 20:16:52 * andythenorth irritated with whole business 20:16:57 <V453000> gives you the feeling like it's something different 20:17:07 <andythenorth> completely unclear goals 20:17:10 <V453000> not to mention that maglev actually does work differently due to no T.E. bullshit 20:17:19 <andythenorth> hmm 20:17:36 <andythenorth> what is goal again? 20:17:44 <andythenorth> draw pixels? 20:17:53 <V453000> idk what is your goal :D 20:18:03 <andythenorth> fuck knows 20:18:08 * andythenorth totally lost 20:18:09 <V453000> my goal is to make the best gameplay train set which builds on what I know from nuts 20:18:13 <Wolf01> Upgrading from rail to monorail to maglev is stupid, just start with maglev 20:18:15 <andythenorth> players asked for faster in Horse 20:18:58 <V453000> Wolf01: yeah but only because it's for such short period and because the monorail vehicles are worthless 20:19:06 <V453000> if it had decent stuff it would be perfectly fine 20:19:15 <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1173170#p1173170 20:19:18 <V453000> in TT I guess it was still good because no maglev 20:20:11 <Wolf01> andythenorth: put a logic train with 9999999.99HP and make everyone happy 20:20:24 <andythenorth> already proposed 20:21:03 <andythenorth> meh 20:21:11 <andythenorth> very hard to make things you will never use 20:21:16 <andythenorth> improper amounts of not-caring 20:23:06 <V453000> I have some engines in nuts which I used just a few times 20:23:23 <V453000> not many though :D 20:23:35 <V453000> oh yeah the monorail MEOW class I used really like twice 20:23:48 <V453000> .... would explain why they don't even have wagons for all cargoes done properly XD 20:24:25 *** gelignite has quit IRC 20:25:07 <V453000> hm 20:25:22 <V453000> scrolling through nuts, the new train set will be glorious, but nuts will always have a place :) 20:25:38 <V453000> it's got something to scroll through the long list of useful engines 20:26:09 <V453000> I'm starting to spew trash 20:26:11 <V453000> gnight :D 20:26:32 <andythenorth> bye V453000 20:26:50 * andythenorth needs Eddi to explain the problem 20:26:56 <andythenorth> usually solves things 20:27:16 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 20:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> what problem? 20:55:36 <Wolf01> You should figure out 20:56:40 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 21:05:36 *** Speedy` has joined #openttd 21:05:46 *** Speedy` is now known as Speedy 21:07:10 <andythenorth> problem is high speed rail 21:09:50 <andythenorth> problem is boring :P 21:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so the problem is that you just don't want to do it? 21:10:39 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:12:19 <supermop> does horse need it? 21:12:32 <supermop> what roster are you thinking for? 21:13:06 <supermop> or rather, whats the problem in a stray pacer running along HS2 if user error leads it there 21:14:24 <andythenorth> I just don’t see the point of it 21:14:40 <andythenorth> but I don’t want a 125mph -> 180mph speed jump 21:14:54 <andythenorth> without some railtype change 21:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean high speed rail should be separated from the rest of the network? 21:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> HS1/Shinkansen/Maglev/...? 21:16:18 <andythenorth> I think you should have to build routes for it 21:16:22 <andythenorth> not just auto-replace 21:16:30 <andythenorth> but it has to be compatible 21:16:31 <andythenorth> so eh 21:17:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the need to build new rails is usually about curve speed 21:19:08 <supermop> if it has to be separate, it is not compatible 21:19:37 <supermop> if you find dedicated HSR boring, then don't bother with it? 21:19:52 <supermop> does IH really have any now? 21:20:23 <andythenorth> no 21:20:31 <supermop> does it need it? 21:21:33 <supermop> in a 'japan' roster, high speed is interesting because it is a new, non-compatible network, completely different in kind and gauge, built from scratch 21:21:56 <supermop> in a UK roster, its really just 'the same track but better' 21:21:59 <andythenorth> how does that solve the convert bug? 21:22:08 <andythenorth> or the autoreplace problem? 21:22:09 <supermop> what is the bug? 21:22:19 <andythenorth> stuck trains 21:22:30 <supermop> what is the problem? 21:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not a bug, that's a user error 21:22:50 *** orudge has quit IRC 21:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> like crashing trains from removing signals 21:23:06 <supermop> if you want to force user to build a new route, then they should build new routes 21:23:08 <FLHerne> It should just be impossible to convert tracks to an incompatible type :P 21:23:15 <supermop> not convert and auto replace 21:23:36 <FLHerne> Not an error, just ignore it, so you can do mass-conversions of other types by area 21:23:43 <supermop> if you want user to incrementally upgrade, then they can convert and auto replace 21:23:50 <supermop> neither is really a problem 21:23:58 <supermop> you just can't do it both ways 21:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you can ultimately not force your playstyle on the players 21:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> everyone will bring their own spin to it 21:24:44 <supermop> because you are saying " all trains must be red" and also " trains can be blue" 21:25:35 <andythenorth> I don’t want to force playstyle 21:25:39 <andythenorth> but game is broken 21:25:48 <supermop> why? 21:26:00 <andythenorth> stuck trains 21:26:04 <andythenorth> it’s even in the wiki 21:26:05 <supermop> you can't upgrade a rail line to monorail in TTO 21:26:21 <supermop> trains can get stuck by missing wires 21:26:21 <andythenorth> https://wiki.openttd.org/Electrified_railways 21:26:29 <supermop> wrong way signals 21:26:32 <andythenorth> "Extreme care must be exercised when upgrading ordinary rail to electrified rail as it is very difficult to spot small pieces of non-electrified rail that you may have missed (especially since track with a train on it will not be upgraded)." 21:26:39 <supermop> missing piece of track 21:26:46 <supermop> deadlocked junctions 21:27:27 <supermop> ok but you said hsr should be new routes 21:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sentence seems like 10 years outdated 21:27:29 * andythenorth wonders why Horse 1 doesn’t have this problem 21:27:49 <andythenorth> supermop: if it’s new routes, then can’t auto-replace 21:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> we allowed conversion of rails to electric when train is on them ages ago 21:27:59 <supermop> is it 'new right of way' or is it 'same track but better' 21:28:18 <supermop> andythenorth: i don't see the problem in that sentence 21:28:18 <andythenorth> dunno 21:28:27 <andythenorth> problem is unmeetable goals 21:28:51 <andythenorth> also https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6617 21:29:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think your "goals" are both too fluid to pin down and too contradictory to reconcile 21:29:30 <supermop> ok put it this way - what is the reason to forbid a slow standard gauge train on a fast standard gauge track 21:29:31 <andythenorth> they are paradoxical afaict 21:29:35 <andythenorth> or oxymoronic 21:29:57 <andythenorth> supermop: none 21:30:00 <supermop> there is a reason, but it's not clear that you want it, 21:30:07 <andythenorth> so why have the extra railtype? 21:30:17 <supermop> reason being to force players to build a new network type 21:30:18 <andythenorth> it adds nothing, just makes railtype menu longer 21:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> realism/variety/maintenance costs/... 21:30:31 <supermop> andythenorth: pay more $ for more speed 21:30:37 <andythenorth> hmm 21:31:01 <andythenorth> and breaking autoreplace 21:31:06 <andythenorth> and leaving stuck trains 21:31:11 <andythenorth> meh :) 21:31:57 <supermop> if you are just going to drag convert rail tool over whole map i dont think you are going to care about other features of the grf 21:32:15 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/455 21:32:39 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/4774 21:34:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so, anyone got any suggestion for the least interesting election in recent history? 21:34:39 <andythenorth> who wins? 21:34:42 <supermop> andythenorth: http://bae.se/bilder/2008/W080317-007.JPG 21:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: all of them 21:35:01 <supermop> here is a slow vehicle that somehow manages to drive on a fast rail 21:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and at the same time none of them 21:35:32 <andythenorth> supermop: agreed, but the railtypes in Horse have no speed limits 21:35:44 <andythenorth> the speed is in the trains 21:36:00 <andythenorth> and if the trains have to be cross-compatible, why bother with the new railtype? 21:36:00 <supermop> then there is no reason for a separate HSR railtype 21:36:06 <andythenorth> ok 21:36:11 <andythenorth> this was my confusion 21:36:21 <supermop> think of it less as a maglev 21:36:27 <supermop> and more like an HST 21:36:30 <andythenorth> so no fast trains in Horse 21:36:49 <supermop> ECML is just regular rail, happens to be pretty straight 21:37:16 <supermop> so a faster regular train can drive faster on it than on a curvy track 21:37:19 <andythenorth> also not very fast 21:37:29 <andythenorth> realism is intervening 21:37:42 <andythenorth> UK trains don’t go above 125mph, except on HS1 21:38:18 <supermop> yeah but from a horse point of view, HS1 is just like the ECML, but maybe straighter and flatter 21:38:48 <andythenorth> so what’s the conclusion? 21:38:50 <supermop> ballast, wire tension, rail welds dont show up in termite 21:38:52 <andythenorth> 199mph trains or not? 21:38:59 <supermop> sure why not 21:39:17 <andythenorth> seems like a huge jump, 125mph -> 199mph 21:39:20 <Eddi|zuHause> what are the reasons against adding a fast train (without new railtype)? 21:39:24 <supermop> in TTO the asia star runs fine on ELRL so long as you give it room to accelerate 21:39:29 <andythenorth> just the progression jump 21:39:36 <andythenorth> sticks out as weird 21:39:49 <andythenorth> most generations gain 15mph 21:39:50 <supermop> progression can be annoying 21:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 199/125 21:39:54 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.592 21:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> 60% boost? 21:40:09 <andythenorth> then suddenly 74mph jump 21:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what's that boost % for the other generations? 21:40:29 <supermop> once your network is dense, its probably not worth reworking everything for 15mph 21:40:38 <andythenorth> @calc 125/110 21:40:38 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.13636363636 21:40:43 <andythenorth> @calc 110/95 21:40:44 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.15789473684 21:40:51 <andythenorth> @calc 95/80 21:40:51 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.1875 21:41:04 <supermop> also UK trains could do 100mph in the 30s, and that top speed held for decades 21:41:10 <supermop> not a big problem 21:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(199/125) 21:41:20 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.26174482365 21:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so you're essentially missing a generation inbetween 21:41:41 <andythenorth> logically yes 21:41:42 <Eddi|zuHause> then it should be fine 21:41:48 <supermop> HST is faster bc its gets to 125mph faster, and routing lets it stay there, not because of the 25 more mph 21:42:29 <andythenorth> so how fast for gen 6 (2020) ? 21:42:39 <andythenorth> gen 5 will be 125mph 21:42:42 <supermop> how fast do trains go now 21:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 125*1.25 21:42:55 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 156.25 21:42:55 <andythenorth> RL? 125mph / 186mph 21:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 125*1.25**2 21:43:00 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 195.3125 21:43:07 <andythenorth> upgrades are coming on stream for 140mph / 199mph 21:43:18 <supermop> idk uk trains were supposed to go 150mph in the 80s 21:43:24 <andythenorth> they were 21:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so 125, 155 and 195 would be logical steps 21:43:35 <andythenorth> but the money wasn’t there 21:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> each 25% faster than the one before 21:43:40 <andythenorth> and now the paths wouldn’t be there 21:43:52 <andythenorth> 140mph train paths are a PITA, braking distances etc 21:44:03 <supermop> yeah 21:44:05 <andythenorth> and any preceeding trains have to get over the network without delay 21:44:08 <supermop> that's your new route 21:44:29 <supermop> its not the $$$ track, its just a line free of slower traffic, if you want it to be 21:44:30 <andythenorth> nah, I can’t see how new routes using types can ever work in OpenTTD 21:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 125*1.6 21:44:34 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 200 21:44:45 <supermop> thats what im saying 21:44:47 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 155*1.6 21:44:47 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 248 21:44:54 <andythenorth> you mean just don’t route slow trains on it? 21:44:57 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 195*1.6 21:44:57 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 312 21:45:03 <supermop> new and old routes are both RAIL 21:45:26 <supermop> just if your old rail cant fit a train running 200mph on it, you build a new one 21:45:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 125, 155, 195 is remarkably close to RL :P 21:45:55 <andythenorth> ok so is gen 6 140mph, or 199mph? 21:46:18 <andythenorth> horse 1 tops out at 155mph, I’m not sure ‘slower’ in v2 is going to be acceptable 21:46:22 <supermop> the shinkansen being SG, flat, and straight was just a bonus - the point of the project was the literal translation ' new trunk line' 21:46:33 <supermop> because the tokaido trunk line was full 21:46:48 <supermop> the Chuo Maglev is kind of the same 21:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, those km/h numbers are also pretty close to the german progression from the BR103 (200km/h, 1970s), ICE1 (280km/h, 1990s) and ICE3 (330km/h, 2010s) 21:47:08 <supermop> 500kmh is nice, but really the shinkansen is kind of full 21:47:37 <supermop> so if you need to build a whole new line again, might as well make it maglev 21:48:07 <supermop> in a uk-ish situation, just stick to SG rail 21:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: maglev in germany failed, for mostly political reasons 21:48:47 <Wolf01> I'll sleepflix, ping me if required :P 21:48:55 <supermop> in japan its not 'competing' with anything 21:49:10 <supermop> because its being built by the operator of the line it will compete with 21:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that was never the problem 21:49:53 <supermop> if DB built the transrapid between two cities because the conventional rail between them was too full, maybe it would have a better shot? 21:50:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the transrapid basically faced 3 problems: 1) it's very expensive, 2) all the NIMBYs, 3) regional politicians wanting in-between stops and reroutings, watering down all the benefits it could have had 21:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> specifically the planned Berlin-Hamburg line failed on 2+3, and the planned munich airport line failed on 1 21:51:43 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: chuo shinkanse has the 'benefit' of cutting through less populated areas 21:51:46 *** orudge has joined #openttd 21:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the berlin-hamburg line would have run through mostly empty territory as well 21:52:13 <supermop> so it can stop at every city on the way, and still have fewer stops than the tokaido shinkansen 21:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but still, there are politicians ruling those empty areas 21:52:48 <supermop> i guess in japan JR is king 21:52:53 <supermop> and just gets what it wants 21:53:25 <supermop> rather Tokyo and Osaka are powerful enough to ignore prefectures in between 21:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with Berlin-Hamburg was the state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, the least densely populated of all the german states. they demanded that in exchange for allowing the route through their state, they must add a stop in their capital of Schwerin 21:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> which isn't on the direct path, making the route longer, and there's really no demand for that either, as it's not a very large city 21:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not even the largest of the state itself 21:56:30 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: that empty territory still likely had farms 21:56:48 <Eddi|zuHause> mostly forest and lakes :p 21:56:58 <supermop> yeah, federal system like here 21:57:02 <andythenorth> supermop: nasty compromise. gen 6 at 160mph? :P 21:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and a huge exodus of people in the past 25 years 21:57:30 <supermop> why amtrak has to stop in every tiny town it passes 21:57:35 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, nobody lives there anymore except at the coast line 21:58:21 <supermop> in japan, prefectures aren't really in a position to 'allow' or forbid a line through them 21:58:55 <supermop> ok brb 21:59:23 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the other problem that line faced was environmentalists 22:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> because in a countryside that's mostly forest, you're not allowed to cut down even a single tree 22:05:07 *** tokai has joined #openttd 22:05:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 22:12:17 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 22:12:47 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 22:15:26 <andythenorth> also bed 22:15:26 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 22:16:22 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 22:31:38 *** Progman has quit IRC 23:27:45 *** orudge` has quit IRC 23:27:48 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 23:27:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 23:34:19 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 23:38:49 <Eddi|zuHause> huh? i got spam. in chinese...