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00:06:56 <Samu> 2 years 00:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that only happens when things break :p 00:15:28 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 00:19:39 <Samu> last year 00:21:31 *** Progman has quit IRC 00:31:08 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 00:43:38 *** Gja has quit IRC 00:54:24 <Samu> finished 00:54:28 *** Samu has quit IRC 01:22:36 *** Thanark has joined #openttd 01:31:42 *** john-aj has quit IRC 01:31:57 *** Thedarkb1 has quit IRC 01:50:41 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 02:13:41 *** chomwitt has quit IRC 02:31:38 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 02:34:43 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 02:42:02 *** cathartes has joined #openttd 02:53:03 *** supermop has joined #openttd 02:59:37 *** DDR has quit IRC 03:01:57 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 03:02:24 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has joined #openttd 03:31:35 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 03:37:00 <Gustavo6046> Tunnels are costly. Is there no cheap way to get past a mountain without penalizing the vehicular speed?? 03:37:10 <Gustavo6046> Sometimes going around isn't a simple solution. 04:10:51 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 04:44:32 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 05:01:54 *** drdoom has joined #openttd 05:02:10 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 05:07:34 *** supermop has quit IRC 05:45:10 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:40:52 *** Coobies has quit IRC 06:51:49 <TrueBrain> yes, LordAro, sometimes people work and need sleep and that childish stuff :P 06:52:05 <TrueBrain> the Rust bot is funny; it is a nice way to solve that master should always compile (and succeed in tests) 07:07:55 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:09:50 *** cathartes has quit IRC 07:57:12 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 08:01:06 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:07:19 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 08:14:39 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 08:15:00 <Wolf01> Moin 08:18:36 *** synchris has joined #openttd 08:34:14 *** CompuDesktop has joined #openttd 08:39:17 *** Compu has quit IRC 08:57:47 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 09:39:22 *** Progman has joined #openttd 09:40:34 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd 09:42:06 *** Samu has joined #openttd 09:43:13 <Samu> HI 09:54:32 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 10:04:35 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 10:37:47 *** john-aj has joined #openttd 10:38:52 *** john-aj has quit IRC 10:48:57 <Samu> how many times can I edit a topic? 10:49:04 <TrueBrain> 12 times 10:49:15 <Samu> nah, can't be, it's already at 27 10:49:24 <TrueBrain> file a bug report; should be 12 10:49:32 <Samu> :( 10:50:04 <Samu> there was a forum, i think battle.net that had a limit :( 10:50:26 <TrueBrain> in some existance, somewhere on the world wide web, it must hold true, that there was a forum, which had a limit 10:51:43 <Samu> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1171159#p1171159 I'm updating this topic from time to time. Today was that time, I was only wondering if there's a limit 10:53:27 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 10:54:53 <Samu> wormnest, your ai finished 10:54:58 <Samu> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1171159#p1171159 10:55:20 <Samu> still need to uplaod screenshots 10:56:49 <Wormnest> Thanks Samu, looks like it´s doing pretty good 10:57:40 <Samu> after screenshots,i still have ships, aircraft and trains to test :( kinda boring to set everything up 10:57:50 <Samu> i know ships will take forever :( 10:58:33 <Wormnest> Oh well, it keeps you off the streets :p 11:11:39 <dihedral> Hello 11:13:14 <Samu> hi 11:14:01 *** Thedarkb1 has joined #openttd 11:17:00 <Samu> there are still players who don't know how to loan :( 11:24:37 <Samu> i can see that the screenshot section is gonna be hard to navigate 11:24:46 <Samu> if i keep adding 11:41:16 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 12:07:15 *** gelignite has quit IRC 12:22:12 *** Thedarkb1 has quit IRC 12:27:34 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 12:27:49 <TrueBrain> morning frosch123 12:27:51 <TrueBrain> RFC: https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/migration-draft.txt 12:27:58 <TrueBrain> any comments will go 12:28:00 *** Gja has joined #openttd 12:28:01 *** Thedarkb1 has joined #openttd 12:28:03 *** Gja has quit IRC 12:28:15 <frosch123> hoi 12:29:37 <LordAro> TrueBrain: gitlab isn't necessarily self-hosted 12:29:44 <TrueBrain> I am aware 12:29:59 <LordAro> also o/ 12:30:33 <Flygon> Man. 12:30:38 <Flygon> LordAro forever lives in my mind. 12:30:44 <Flygon> It's that damned xkcd connection. 12:30:50 <LordAro> er 12:30:51 <LordAro> hi 12:31:19 <Flygon> Yeah I just realized I sounded creepy af sorry 12:31:20 <Flygon> x.x 12:31:23 <LordAro> ;) 12:41:49 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I cannot imagine that is all you have to comment on it, so what gives? :) 12:42:34 <LordAro> sorry, KSPing 12:42:52 <LordAro> i'll take another look 12:43:14 <TrueBrain> you were complaining it was not going quick enough here :P 12:46:05 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, the last point "server itself requires maintenace". You mean the HV, or what does it refer to? 12:47:02 <TrueBrain> yes 12:47:04 <TrueBrain> the physical server 12:47:45 <planetmaker> just curious: do we require more server power there, or what does need maintenance there? 12:47:54 <TrueBrain> OS upgrade 12:48:02 <planetmaker> ok... yeah, HV upgrade 12:48:02 <TrueBrain> we might want to move to other hardware soon-ish 12:48:06 <TrueBrain> (it is .. 5 years old now?) 12:48:18 <planetmaker> dunno... about yeah 12:48:24 <TrueBrain> and maybe worth considering, cloud 12:48:27 *** Thedarkb1 has quit IRC 12:48:51 <TrueBrain> maybe not for the CF, but possibly for things like website, BaNaNaS, etc 12:48:57 <TrueBrain> just so it becomes serverless 12:49:19 <planetmaker> cloud... isn't it just a fancy name for "a VM somewhere else"? 12:49:38 <TrueBrain> serverless, is mainly the part of cloud I would be interested in 12:49:43 <TrueBrain> just: here is some Python, you run it now 12:49:48 <TrueBrain> here are some HTML files, you run it now 12:52:10 <planetmaker> you still need all the access we have now, don't you? 12:52:26 <planetmaker> Just curious... not sure I get how that is supposed to work :) 12:52:28 <TrueBrain> what do you mean, 'access'? 12:52:38 <TrueBrain> say you have a website, HTML, Javascript, and CSS 12:52:39 <planetmaker> to the management of the services 12:52:43 <TrueBrain> do you care on what server it runs? What OS? 12:52:48 <planetmaker> no, I don't 12:52:53 <TrueBrain> you just want something to host those files, so others can access it 12:52:58 <TrueBrain> that is called serverless, in a nutshell 12:53:07 <TrueBrain> so the "cloud" takes care of that shit for you 12:53:12 <TrueBrain> including upgrades, maintaince, etc 12:53:18 <TrueBrain> you just want high availability 12:53:22 <TrueBrain> same goes for Python applications 12:53:35 <planetmaker> so... something like light-weight containers where several run parallel on the same machine - we just don't care about the machine 12:53:36 <TrueBrain> I just want something to execute this Python 3.6 application 12:53:48 <planetmaker> just a separate login for us 12:53:52 <TrueBrain> I dont care if it is 1 machine, or 100 machines 12:53:57 <TrueBrain> I dont want to login to the machine 12:54:01 *** Progman has quit IRC 12:54:05 <TrueBrain> I just want it to be :) 12:54:08 <planetmaker> well, you need to modify your own website ;) 12:54:11 *** Progman has joined #openttd 12:54:15 <TrueBrain> then you upload new files :) 12:54:29 <TrueBrain> for example, AWS 12:54:34 <TrueBrain> there you upload your files to S3 12:54:44 <TrueBrain> you tell some fancy thing: if something hits this URL, serve this file 12:54:50 <TrueBrain> if I want to update my file, I do so 12:54:52 <TrueBrain> that is it 12:55:13 <planetmaker> ok, ty 12:55:21 <planetmaker> got it, I guess 12:55:35 <TrueBrain> we are so used to worry about everything, from network connection, to location, to hardware, to OS, ... 12:55:47 <TrueBrain> but nowedays, it is no longer important :) 12:55:54 *** Progman has quit IRC 12:55:57 <TrueBrain> and if AWS runs it on 10 machines, or on 1 12:55:59 *** Progman has joined #openttd 12:56:02 <TrueBrain> if he runs it in France, or in USA 12:56:10 <TrueBrain> who cares :D 12:56:19 <TrueBrain> (in reality, it runs in many places, sort of :P) 12:57:47 <frosch123> TrueBrain: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/phtmnjuv6 12:58:18 <TrueBrain> frosch123: difference between "1.7.2" and nightly are only the targets it runs for and the version it gets 12:58:25 <TrueBrain> the path is identical :) 12:58:57 <TrueBrain> you really want the CF to validate each PR, in general :) 12:59:39 <TrueBrain> (the testing part) 12:59:50 <frosch123> yes, but no publishing of binaries 13:00:11 <planetmaker> frosch123, compatibility also works for identical hashes iirc. 13:00:29 <TrueBrain> frosch123: ack 13:00:41 <TrueBrain> and we already support git for multiplayer 13:01:03 <planetmaker> just the version string needs to fit. And it needs to fit cross-platform. I recall there to be sometimes problems with different lengths of them at some stage - which declared them incompatible, but they were in fact built from the same source 13:01:45 <TrueBrain> frosch123: tnx a lot for feedback :) Just a bit unsure what you mean about the FF .. do you mean: we should do FF, or: we shouldn't? I am not sure we understood each other there 13:03:33 <frosch123> when pr are reviewed, usually you request changes. i would expect those changes to not be added on top, but to have the PR be rebased with adjusted commit contents 13:03:51 <TrueBrain> that is exactly the choices you have :) 13:03:59 <frosch123> so i expect PR to constantly get rebased 13:04:00 <TrueBrain> some people make a new commit with the fixes, and squash it at the end 13:04:05 <TrueBrain> others rebase 13:04:18 <TrueBrain> personally I think for starters enforcing FF is a good thing for OpenTTD 13:04:22 <TrueBrain> it is more "like SVN" 13:04:36 <TrueBrain> but if you look at Rust, they went overboard with allowing different flows :) 13:04:44 <TrueBrain> (and yes, I assumed all PRs are reviewed :P) 13:06:46 <frosch123> squash-at-the-end is still a kind of rebase 13:07:02 <TrueBrain> kinda; it mostly depends when the CI has a chance to do its validation 13:07:05 <TrueBrain> before merge or after 13:08:16 <TrueBrain> anyway, minor settings and stuff .. otherwise you agree with the idea? 13:09:07 <frosch123> yes, put as much into the cloud as possible :) 13:09:20 <TrueBrain> :D 13:09:25 <planetmaker> I guess we should do the same with the coop repos at some stage, too 13:09:35 <TrueBrain> you also agree with my summarization of the two requests you put down? :D 13:09:42 <frosch123> i also like the configuration of the farm (adding of jobs) via some vcs (if i got that right) 13:10:00 *** Thedarkb1 has joined #openttd 13:10:06 <TrueBrain> I want everything to be controlable via git, yes .. so anyone with access is in control 13:10:21 <TrueBrain> and I would really like to be as much aspossible that you can run it on your local machine as well 13:11:00 <frosch123> about the goals: i keep wondering about the purpose of a "single main stable branch" 13:11:31 <TrueBrain> what else would you define as "official" OpenTTD? 13:11:32 <frosch123> as i see it the players separate into different interest groups, which follow conflicting goals 13:11:48 <TrueBrain> wouldnt that confuse a lot of players? 13:11:54 <planetmaker> well, players always had different interests, did they? 13:11:58 <TrueBrain> (serious question; I do not know the answer) 13:12:12 <frosch123> so i dream about "openttd for sandbox", "openttd for competive millenials", "openttd for wannabe economics students" :p 13:12:25 <TrueBrain> this concept does allow that 13:12:35 <frosch123> but i do not see a way to unify those goals into a single main branch anymore 13:12:36 <TrueBrain> you just never promote any fork to be "the only one" :P 13:12:37 <planetmaker> Having a single "official" branch is good to keep the project focused. But with so few people contributing, that's become a pretty difficult thing 13:13:15 <TrueBrain> possibly even demote the current trunk to be "official" 13:13:16 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it depends on how people discover ottd 13:13:22 <planetmaker> It means to make decisions - and sticking somewhat to that one decision. Taking the lead. It's a hard and possibly harsh decision .But you never can satisfy everyone 13:13:40 <frosch123> but as i see it, those who discover ottd via social networks already use inofficial clients 13:13:50 <TrueBrain> that is very true 13:15:38 <LordAro> https://github.com/SFTtech/openage/pulls might want to take a look at how openage guys do PRs as well 13:15:58 <LordAro> they like to go way overboard, with style checkers, copyright checkers and everything else all at the CI level 13:16:08 <LordAro> they made their own CI system to run it 13:16:19 <LordAro> and they also "enforce" rebasing, which is much nicer IMO 13:16:32 <TrueBrain> what is nice about FF, that your history is clean 13:16:32 <LordAro> rebasing PRs* 13:16:34 <TrueBrain> no stupid merge shit 13:16:58 <LordAro> but equally, FF makes it clear which commits are connected to which PR/author 13:17:14 <TrueBrain> but I am sure time will show a way :) 13:17:24 <frosch123> LordAro: both sounds good to me :) i stopped reading some fs patches just because the diff started with 3 whitespace changes :p 13:17:58 <LordAro> TrueBrain: https://github.com/SFTtech/openage/network e.g. 13:18:30 <TrueBrain> it is so silly OpenTTD still uses manual reviews :P 13:18:35 <TrueBrain> it is so old-fashioned :) 13:19:28 <frosch123> to add to the "multiple branches" thing: at work i never have any issue to decide what is the right thing to do, because the software has a scientific correct thing to do. but in a game there are arbitrary decisions 13:20:57 <TrueBrain> frosch123: any other active people that might have feedback on this? 13:21:04 <TrueBrain> or shall we just start making it happen? 13:21:34 <LordAro> might be an idea to put it on the forums? 13:21:43 <LordAro> i have no idea what goes on there these days 13:21:54 <planetmaker> what would the forums contribute? 13:22:02 <planetmaker> what could they? 13:22:24 <LordAro> well the people making all the "forks" that you think might have potential are there 13:23:05 <frosch123> TrueBrain: michi_cc and peter1138 are both git fanboys 13:23:26 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I think frosch123 should write some kind of manifesto about his ideas for OpenTTD 13:23:31 <TrueBrain> that might be more valuable 13:23:33 <frosch123> alberth is the only one i do not know about 13:23:41 <TrueBrain> I just build on 2 pilars from that :) 13:23:53 <LordAro> ah yeah, alberth hasn't been around 13:24:25 <frosch123> LordAro: i have not read forums in half a year :) 13:24:57 <planetmaker> aye... Alberth should have a say, I guess, being the 2nd most active after frosch? 13:26:29 <frosch123> TrueBrain: https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#What_are_the_goals_of_the_offical_branch.3F <- that used to be my manifesto for the stable branch. but it only works for people who know ttd from their childhood. i do not see anyone join based on that :) 13:27:01 <TrueBrain> so extend on it? :) 13:27:11 <TrueBrain> that can still stand ofc, but the thing following becomes more imrpotant now :) 13:35:04 <TrueBrain> anyway, I will make some things happen on my side; mostly look into how to populate GitHub with both the right issues and the right commits/branches 13:39:15 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I think it might also be worth in talking to orudge; would be nice if every fork could get his own subforum to talk about it 13:39:23 <TrueBrain> 1 thread per fork is abit ..annoying :D 13:40:33 <Wolf01> It's already difficult to get people to talk on a single thread... maybe a "forks" subforum 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sets mode: +ovov peter1138 peter1138 orudge orudge 13:46:00 *** Taede has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** CompuDesktop has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** synchris has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** drdoom has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Thanark has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** ccfreak2k has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** OsteHovel has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Maarten has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Extrems has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** jinks has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** dustinm` has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** nahkiss has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** efess` has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** bwn has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** quiznilo has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** APTX_ has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** supermop_work has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Sylf has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** colde has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** innocenat has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** TinoDidriksen has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Ttech has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** dvim has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** urdh has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** ST2 has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Warrigal_ has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** mikegrb has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Tharbakim has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** Vadtec has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** murr4y has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** techmagus has joined #openttd 13:47:13 *** greeter has joined #openttd 13:47:30 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:47:34 <Wolf01> Are we all again? 13:47:56 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** Samu has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** tokai has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** michi_cc has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** donarek has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** heffer has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** Xaroth has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** APTX has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** Agiri[m] has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** cute[m] has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** juzza1 has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** plp has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** SpComb has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** Antheus has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** grossing has joined #openttd 13:47:56 *** helix.oftc.net sets mode: +vv tokai michi_cc 13:47:56 <TrueBrain> what is funny about this channel.. even after years (read: 10+), there are still ~100 people in here 13:47:57 <TrueBrain> :P 13:48:07 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 13:48:08 <Wolf01> :D 13:48:24 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: go read https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/migration-draft.txt ; let me know what you think :P 13:48:54 <Wolf01> The nice part is that of those 100, the active ones are like 10-15 13:49:31 * andythenorth reads 13:50:02 <Wolf01> I've never seen some of them talking, and I'm here since 2004 plus or minus a month 13:50:24 <TrueBrain> @seen Bjarni 13:50:24 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 6 years, 20 weeks, 2 days, 13 hours, 31 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh 13:50:36 <TrueBrain> wen can always use DorpsGek to find out who never said anything :P 13:52:35 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 13:55:02 <andythenorth> ok so for main, PR -> CI -> build 13:55:13 <andythenorth> also -> publish 13:56:02 <TrueBrain> build and publish is optional from PR 13:57:20 <andythenorth> so I can make forks that include my crypto-miner? o_O 13:57:26 <TrueBrain> you can 13:57:33 <andythenorth> and users will think it's 'official-ish' 13:57:41 <TrueBrain> ish, yes 13:57:44 <andythenorth> hmm, actually they don't believe NRT is official-ish 13:57:54 <andythenorth> I had real hard time convincing people it wasn't a hokey fork 13:58:08 <andythenorth> probably all fine 13:59:27 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 14:02:01 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: all looks good to me 14:02:07 <andythenorth> I can't answer the git unknowns 14:02:12 <TrueBrain> cool; tnx :) 14:02:15 <TrueBrain> nah, we will figure that out :) 14:02:19 <andythenorth> but I would like to help with website and Bananas rebuild 14:02:44 <andythenorth> I don't see why website isn't mostly static tbh 14:02:52 <andythenorth> it's not doing much 14:03:03 <TrueBrain> indeed 14:05:14 <andythenorth> bananas seems too hard to work on afaict 14:05:28 <andythenorth> frosch123 made a VM to at least make dev possible 14:05:39 <andythenorth> but it seems a clunky way to dev / deploy 14:07:26 <TrueBrain> yeah .. I would consider making it a cloud solution 14:07:32 <TrueBrain> guess we need to email AWS what they can do for us :) 14:09:32 <andythenorth> the challenge in web dev is always building the app :( 14:09:38 <andythenorth> either for dev, or in production 14:15:56 <TrueBrain> meh; a while ago I rebuild openttd.org in Angular .. just to realise it demanded you have Javascript .. which is silly for a page like openttd.org 14:16:11 <TrueBrain> never got to it looking further into that 14:16:29 <andythenorth> it's a solved problewm 14:16:39 <andythenorth> just have to have the argument about which framework :P 14:16:57 <andythenorth> there are 3 or 4 perfectly good python web frameworks 14:17:31 <TrueBrain> I just said Angular :P 14:17:37 <TrueBrain> nothing to do with Python :) 14:17:56 <TrueBrain> the dynamic part was trivial :) 14:19:28 <peter1138> hi 14:21:49 <andythenorth> I don't javascript :P 14:21:56 <andythenorth> it's kind of a principle 14:23:26 <TrueBrain> that is why you TypeScript these days! 14:23:38 <TrueBrain> for BaNaNaS itself Angular would be a really solid solution 14:23:41 <TrueBrain> with a decent API behind it 14:23:46 <TrueBrain> rewrite musa to use the API too 14:24:02 *** supermop has joined #openttd 14:24:45 <TrueBrain> but like I said .. I see a lot of benefit for writing it in the cloud, but I guess we need to investigate that ;) 14:28:50 <LordAro> TrueBrain: boo, angular 14:28:51 <LordAro> hiss 14:28:52 <LordAro> etc 14:29:00 <TrueBrain> and now with any valid argument? 14:29:10 <LordAro> i dislike javascript 14:29:16 <LordAro> its usage should be minimised 14:29:19 <TrueBrain> that is not an argument ;) 14:29:25 <LordAro> :p 14:29:25 <TrueBrain> and again, Angular is TypeScript 14:29:30 <TrueBrain> huge difference 14:29:44 <andythenorth> there's never an objective argument about web frameworks 14:29:46 <TrueBrain> mostly people saying stuff like that to me, never did anything with it :) But that is just my experience :) 14:29:48 <LordAro> JS-only sites tend to be really bad for accessibility purposes as well 14:29:49 <andythenorth> it's just editor wars again 14:30:03 <andythenorth> my objection is that I lost 4 days of my life to JS in 2001 14:30:10 <LordAro> and they're usually blank when JS is turned off 14:30:17 <LordAro> andythenorth: only 4? 14:30:21 <andythenorth> trying to make something work we'd sold, that couldn't be made to work 14:30:53 <andythenorth> I have nothing objective 14:31:05 <Samu> testing aircraft! 14:31:17 <TrueBrain> taking a poop! 14:31:33 <andythenorth> infringing infosec! 14:35:56 <Wolf01> I still prefer using PHP and a little of JS when really necessary (ajax stuff) :P 14:36:38 <TrueBrain> these days I really like writing a solid backend, and writing a frontend totally separate from it .. via a well defined API .. 14:36:46 <TrueBrain> also nice to write mobile apps against 14:37:08 *** Thedarkb1 has quit IRC 14:37:17 <TrueBrain> also why it is very unlikely I would be using Django again for any project of mine 14:38:57 *** Thedarkb1 has joined #openttd 14:39:22 <Wolf01> I would go with Symfony + Angular on my projects 14:39:27 <planetmaker> you seem to prefer to write new and then discard maintenance as "it's a pile of cruft" :P 14:40:29 <TrueBrain> the chances of any code base not touched for 12 years being any decent, is very very very slim in general, yes :) 14:40:30 * planetmaker seeks cover 14:43:29 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 14:43:29 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 14:43:40 <andythenorth> I am switching to this for website backends https://www.contentful.com/ 14:43:50 <andythenorth> there's a free developer edition 14:44:10 <TrueBrain> how much did they pay you to link that? 14:44:15 <TrueBrain> not sure if we should kick you now or not :P 14:44:29 <Wolf01> :D 14:44:35 <LordAro> clearly should just use rails 14:44:46 <andythenorth> I am paying them :( 14:44:51 <TrueBrain> as everyone should use dead langauges :P (did I say that out loud? :P) 14:45:03 <andythenorth> can I get a discount for affiliate referrals? 14:45:50 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 14:45:50 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 14:45:56 <Wolf01> o/ 14:45:57 <LordAro> o/ 14:46:51 <TrueBrain> Alberth / peter1138: https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/migration-draft.txt <- any comments? 14:47:05 <LordAro> Alberth: there's a fair bit of scrollback for you to go through :) 14:50:26 *** tokai has quit IRC 14:56:29 <Alberth> @logs 14:56:29 <DorpsGek> Alberth: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd 15:12:40 <Alberth> TrueBrain: seems fine to me 15:13:04 <Alberth> I ownder if we should use more github, eg markdownify the wiki 15:14:02 <TrueBrain> you want to migrate the current wiki? Or do I misunderstand you here? :) 15:14:10 <LordAro> something to consider afterwards, i'd say 15:14:25 <andythenorth> frosch was quite strongly in favour of keeping a wiki format 15:14:33 <andythenorth> and leaving documentation mostly with users 15:14:58 <Alberth> ok, just a thought 15:15:14 <TrueBrain> we can move important pages :D 15:15:20 <TrueBrain> it can in theory also host the webpage :P 15:15:21 <andythenorth> I proposed killing the wiki, because I don't like wikis :) 15:15:30 <andythenorth> I dislike 'untidy' :( 15:15:46 <TrueBrain> your OCD should not keep others from enjoying it :) 15:15:49 <andythenorth> did github kill 'pages'? 15:16:07 <andythenorth> there was some thing where you could host static websites based on markdown or so 15:16:13 <andythenorth> but I think it died 15:16:18 <TrueBrain> github can host your pages :P 15:16:25 <LordAro> static stuff only though 15:16:29 <andythenorth> https://pages.github.com/ 15:16:29 <Alberth> don't know what pages are, but isn't there github.io things? 15:16:37 <LordAro> same thing 15:17:18 <Alberth> multiple, more dedicated versions seems like a nice idea 15:17:27 <andythenorth> I should move my newgrf projects to github 15:17:36 <andythenorth> but then I have to reinvent coop infra 15:18:20 <Alberth> can't you push a build result to coop? 15:18:34 <TrueBrain> Alberth: I am very curious if that is what people want; but worth the try :) 15:18:59 <TrueBrain> and having a normal 2018-type code-review workflow would benefit the project for sure :P 15:19:59 <Alberth> perhaps not, both cirdan and jgr mostly do openttd+stuff 15:20:36 <Alberth> but one could make a version that drops all old crap :p 15:20:44 <andythenorth> I could only push a build result to coop if I had a build farm :). But the build farm is coop 15:20:44 <Alberth> have a sane base set 15:21:00 <Alberth> gh has build stuff too 15:21:19 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:21:23 <Alberth> travis, i think it's called 15:21:39 <LordAro> has anyone given any thought to bringing jgr & cirdan on as devs? 15:21:51 <LordAro> Alberth: travis is one option, there are several 15:22:05 <LordAro> could use existing bamboo stuff in the meantime 15:23:40 <LordAro> the first step as i see it is to migrate issues to github 15:23:46 <LordAro> that can be done even if github all falls through 15:24:26 <Alberth> tbh I don't know why one would bother porting the issues imho 15:24:55 <Alberth> just store them in a repo or a subdir, or even just forget about them 15:25:17 <LordAro> we're pretty sure that github would autolink the stuff in the commit messages 15:25:38 <LordAro> but eh, i guess it's a low priority thing 15:28:37 <Alberth> it won't link the old issues, not in the last place as git has a somewhat different revision numbering scheme 15:30:14 <LordAro> well no, but #nnnn will get linked 15:30:35 <LordAro> (maybe, the FS#nnnn might not) 15:30:40 <LordAro> anyway, bikeshedding 15:49:12 <andythenorth> we should boatshed instead 15:49:15 * andythenorth boatshedding 15:56:09 <Alberth> just add boat pixels! 16:01:14 <TrueBrain> You have to bump the issue to at least the number of FS, otherwise GitHub will falsely link issues to commits 16:01:23 <TrueBrain> doing that is as much effort as importing them, so meh 16:05:27 <supermop> yo 16:10:15 <Alberth> o/ 16:21:05 *** gelignite has quit IRC 16:21:22 *** Gja has joined #openttd 16:21:44 <Samu> what are the chances of random ai rolling CluelessPlus twice in a row? out of 42 AIs? :( 16:22:26 <LordAro> @calc 1/(42*42) 16:22:26 <DorpsGek> LordAro: 0.000566893424036 16:23:00 <Samu> sometimes I wonder how random is random 16:23:00 <andythenorth> somehow 16:23:07 <andythenorth> I made it fun to draw boats 16:23:10 <andythenorth> that was unexpected 16:23:19 <Wolf01> https://m.rebrickable.com/media/cache/ea/d0/ead03a88021ca22ee9a916c58f3128cb.jpg?1512914779.7469342 nice 16:23:44 <andythenorth> such chibi 16:23:48 <Wolf01> https://rebrickable.com/users/Echaton/mocs/ 16:24:06 <Wolf01> They look really good 16:24:29 <andythenorth> Wolf01: stay out of trains :P 16:24:32 <andythenorth> it's a tarpit 16:24:34 <Wolf01> :D 16:25:12 <Wolf01> I have some more chibi things to make, don't worry, I don't have space or time for trains now 16:25:46 <andythenorth> https://www.flickr.com/photos/andythenorth/sets/72157644406618728 16:26:55 <andythenorth> so 16:27:15 <Alberth> andy has a tarpit right at home :p 16:27:18 <andythenorth> ships that are 128px in – direction consistently flicker 16:27:24 <andythenorth> this is inevitable? 16:32:44 <supermop> make them articulated? 16:35:45 <andythenorth> lol 16:36:01 <andythenorth> are bounding boxes real? 16:36:04 <andythenorth> or a myth? 16:36:25 <andythenorth> my assumption is the spritesorter needs to know the dimensions of a sprite 16:37:42 <supermop> can you abuse sprite stacks? 16:38:29 <supermop> for each chunk of ship to be its own sprite 16:39:33 *** Thedarkb1 has quit IRC 16:40:18 <andythenorth> wondering 16:40:48 <andythenorth> oops 16:40:53 <andythenorth> crashed OpenTTD....again 16:43:06 <Wolf01> Don't report crashes by changing grfs ingame ;) 16:48:38 <andythenorth> lol 16:51:48 <andythenorth> so what's left in NRT then? 16:51:54 <andythenorth> is it trunk candidate yet? 16:52:11 <andythenorth> it's not lilke trunk has never included anything unfinished, or with bugs :) 16:54:50 <Wolf01> Imho it works 16:55:33 <supermop> poles in the middle of the road 16:56:09 <supermop> nml binary with town roads 16:56:11 <andythenorth> Wolf01: GS and AI support? 16:56:24 <andythenorth> supermop: I don't know how to make a Windows binary, sorry 16:56:31 <Wolf01> GS and AI will need to be tweaked 16:56:36 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 16:56:54 <Wolf01> Also the game code might need a bit of work 17:07:31 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 17:21:36 <Gustavo6046> Guys 17:22:05 <Gustavo6046> Does covering more of a city (using station joining) increase the influx of passengers? 17:29:58 <Alberth> why don't you simply try it? 17:38:12 <frosch123> supermop: https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nml-nrt-17ba2b7-win32.zip <- town road choice branch 17:42:02 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 17:53:20 <supermop> ooh 17:54:39 <supermop> Wolf01: can you remind me how it works? what is the name of the property? 17:56:38 <andythenorth> https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/commit/17ba2b7bed6d487b71ecd5ad79f4b1447db7efb0 17:56:40 <andythenorth> supermop: ^ 17:56:59 <supermop> lower is better? 18:02:19 *** Thedarkb1 has joined #openttd 18:02:36 <andythenorth> I would have expected higher is better 18:02:43 <andythenorth> dunno :) 18:02:46 <supermop> lets test 18:03:01 <supermop> i have dirt at 8, stone at 4 and asphalt at 2 18:05:36 *** glx has joined #openttd 18:05:36 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 18:06:59 <supermop> hmmm 18:11:57 <supermop> unkown action 0 property 0x1e 18:12:04 <supermop> disabling unspooled 18:14:55 <supermop> is that the town weight property? 18:15:31 <supermop> looks like it 18:15:42 *** Alberth has left #openttd 18:15:43 <supermop> this is last nights NRT build... 18:16:19 <frosch123> ask Wolf01 18:16:44 <supermop> maybe i need a branch other than nrt nightly 18:17:00 <supermop> nml doesn't complain 18:18:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I guess you're right with moving newgrf repos to github. We should start migrating that 18:18:35 <planetmaker> and the build repo can be made to interact with basically any repo. It simply needs configuring the proper source 18:18:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so we could keep bundles? o_O 18:18:51 <frosch123> planetmaker: eints cannot push to remote 18:18:52 <supermop> andythenorth: Wolf01: is the nrt nightly compatible with town weight? 18:19:14 <andythenorth> supermop: no 18:19:15 <frosch123> hmm, otoh, it just needs a github account 18:19:17 <planetmaker> dunno, it can also push elsewhere. Jenkins itself is quite autonomous. bundles is for it "just a server" 18:19:36 <supermop> ok well that explains the error 18:19:54 <planetmaker> though the server currently is kinda included as file system 18:20:11 <andythenorth> I was just thinking to reduce maintenance burden 18:20:27 <andythenorth> when devzone repo access breaks, it relies on frosch or spike 18:20:36 <frosch123> currently it works :p 18:20:40 <planetmaker> :D 18:20:50 <andythenorth> leave it until next major break? 18:21:08 <frosch123> until after ottd is migrated? 18:21:11 <planetmaker> the flaky thing is the web interface... ssh is much more robust 18:21:12 <andythenorth> no gain in looking for work 18:21:39 <frosch123> planetmaker: i switched the cron job to just restart before the eints push :p 18:21:44 <planetmaker> :D 18:21:50 <planetmaker> like it 18:22:03 <frosch123> the vm is just too small 18:22:17 <frosch123> it runs out of memory when someone downloads a zip bundle from rhodecode or something 18:22:37 <supermop> andythenorth: so should i send you this spool version to test? 18:22:53 <andythenorth> supermop: you'd need a windows binary? 18:23:17 <andythenorth> what we need is a new compile farm :) 18:23:22 <supermop> yes, but if you want to test it in my stead could just send to you 18:23:22 <andythenorth> that builds more branches 18:23:33 <andythenorth> I don't actually know much about it 18:23:40 <andythenorth> it's a Wolf01 idea :) 18:24:27 <supermop> ok 18:40:47 <andythenorth> I finished 5 ships :) 18:41:13 <andythenorth> just 24 more to go 18:46:53 <Samu> how do I generate a nice @listfile on windows? 18:53:47 <supermop> Wolf01: do you want to test these roads? 18:54:11 <Samu> anyway, i'm bored and decided to compress an mp3 using the best file compressor in existance 18:54:20 <Samu> what am I gonna expect 18:55:11 <Samu> paq8px archiver v138 (C) 2018, Matt Mahoney et al. 18:55:38 <Samu> the archiver now requires a @filelist 18:55:44 <Samu> i have no idea how to generate one nicely 18:55:59 <Samu> or @listfile 18:56:36 <Samu> well, forget it, it's not openttd related 18:56:45 <Cubey> Are you just talking about a list of filenames? 18:56:56 <Samu> yes, but also pathnames 18:57:01 <Samu> recursive 18:57:09 <Samu> not full pathnames though 18:57:53 <Cubey> Full pathnames wouldn't work? I guess you could remove the unneeded part of the path with a simple find and replace 18:58:18 <Cubey> dir /s/b 18:58:24 <Samu> also, windows filenames may contain spaces 18:58:41 <Samu> it fails to find files with space :( 18:59:52 <Samu> if the file is enclosed with "", like "file with spaces" 19:00:03 <Samu> it can compress, but i dunno how to generate such filelist 19:00:29 <Cubey> dir /s/b > listfile.txt and then find and replace away the parts of the paths with spaces 19:01:48 <andythenorth> hmm 19:02:02 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/livestock_carrier_large.png 19:02:07 <andythenorth> supermop: not feeling that sprite 19:02:11 <andythenorth> http://photos.marinetraffic.com/ais/showphoto.aspx?photoid=2785623 19:02:14 <andythenorth> http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=2290784 19:02:22 <andythenorth> I think the 2CC upper works doesn't work 19:03:03 <andythenorth> variants in the spritesheet http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/unsinkable-sam/repository/entry/src/graphics/ships/livestock_carrier_large_template.png 19:03:07 <andythenorth> needs more work though eh? 19:03:34 <frosch123> make some of the cages blue? 19:04:01 <frosch123> or maybe all of them 19:04:10 <frosch123> cages blend in with the hull currently 19:04:23 <andythenorth> yeah 19:04:36 <andythenorth> they could be white, but then it's a lot of white 19:04:46 <andythenorth> might look like a ferry :P 19:05:09 <planetmaker> the cages could be rusty-brown 19:05:20 <frosch123> or add some bigs and cows walking on the roof? 19:05:26 <frosch123> *pigs 19:05:37 <planetmaker> indeed... do they need a roof? :) 19:06:32 <frosch123> also some life buoys for them 19:06:51 <andythenorth> :P 19:07:32 <andythenorth> in iron horse, they have more contrast http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/livestock_car_pony_gen_5C.png 19:12:23 <Gustavo6046> http://i.imgur.com/37IwRNT.png I quit 19:12:33 <Gustavo6046> I suck at railways 19:21:54 <Samu> is that an AI? 19:25:48 <supermop> i think it needs to look like it has decks/levels andy 19:31:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you suck at making png screenshots 19:36:55 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 19:42:35 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 19:45:11 *** ToBeFree has joined #openttd 19:50:01 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/livestock_carrier_large.png 19:50:10 <andythenorth> I like it more, and it references Horse a lot 19:50:26 <andythenorth> I might need to knock out the doors in the hull 19:50:55 <andythenorth> it shares the same base hull sprite as http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/piece_goods_carrier_large.png 19:55:31 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 20:03:00 <Samu> the mp3 file was compressed from 16,7 MB (17.604.608 bytes) to 14,2 MB (14.910.279 bytes) 20:03:06 <Samu> impressive 20:10:28 <TrueBrain> the existance of mp3s? Yes 20:14:28 <LordAro> probably simpler to decrease the bitrate 20:14:59 <TrueBrain> simpler is taking a piss, tbh :) 20:15:31 <Gustavo6046> Samu, that is me 20:16:05 <Gustavo6046> TrueBrain, OGG if you really need intense compression 20:16:08 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/v6629-228/docs/html/static/img/livestock_carrier_large.png 20:16:13 <andythenorth> oops 20:16:15 <andythenorth> same as last 20:16:16 <Gustavo6046> FLAC can also be easily compressed without destroying the audio quality. 20:16:20 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/unsinkable-sam/push/LATEST/docs/html/static/img/livestock_carrier_large.png 20:19:21 <Gustavo6046> The best way to compress audio would be to divide it into chunks, do a weighted moving average on then and then interpolate them. 20:19:24 <Gustavo6046> And 20:19:51 <supermop> best way is listen to no recorded music, only live concerts 20:20:01 <Gustavo6046> for each of these chunks, we define a finer modulation map. 20:20:11 <Gustavo6046> supermop, I'm not talking about music 20:20:17 <Gustavo6046> I'm talking about digital audio in general 20:20:47 <TrueBrain> so white noise 20:20:49 <TrueBrain> brown noise 20:20:57 <TrueBrain> my sister crying 20:22:21 <andythenorth> why did you make your sister cry TrueBrain ? 20:22:22 <andythenorth> sounds mean 20:22:32 <TrueBrain> I made her read this chat 20:22:35 <TrueBrain> *owh snap* 20:23:53 <glx> it's not the worse subject in this chat :) 20:31:48 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 20:34:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i found the reason why the website broke... 20:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> https://www.twitch.tv/videos/231667653 <-- around 1:38:30 he announces "search for openttd", and a minute later "oh... we broke it :p" 20:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that was thursday evening 20:35:59 <glx> usual reason for the website to fall :) 20:36:15 <TrueBrain> sorry to disapoint, that was not "the reason" :P 20:38:19 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's certainly plausible that when the biggest german youtuber says the name of a website in a stream which 20-40k people watch, that website might go down quickly :p 20:38:36 <TrueBrain> honestly, we had worse over the years 20:39:09 <TrueBrain> and both times around the time django stopped working, the traffic was not unusual 20:39:38 <TrueBrain> all I could find, that it blocked on an IO operation ... 20:40:54 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 20:43:19 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 21:09:19 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 21:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like you need a watchdog to kill it if blocked 21:10:03 <TrueBrain> it happened now 3 times in 2 years ... 21:10:07 <TrueBrain> I mean ... 21:10:21 <TrueBrain> I rather have an upgrade to something non-django-1.2 than a watchdog :D 21:10:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue about that :p 21:11:18 <TrueBrain> https://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/migration-draft.txt is a good start ;) 21:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i want to have a clue :p 21:13:54 <TrueBrain> and I guess that is part of the problem ;) 21:26:20 <frosch123> hmm, i don't like the inserters-compress-belts change 21:27:17 <LordAro> :o 21:27:53 <frosch123> there was this technique to put slightly faster belts in front of inserters which do the compresing 21:28:33 <frosch123> i considered that really smart 21:28:54 <frosch123> actually, it still looks better than the inserter stopping movement... so i'll keep doing it :) 21:33:01 <supermop> hmm i wonder why my highway doesn't use the bridge overlays i want it to 21:37:30 <supermop> oh 21:37:40 <supermop> ok i figured it out 21:38:09 <andythenorth> bye 21:38:10 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:50:26 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 21:54:44 *** ToBeFree has quit IRC 21:57:10 <supermop> is there no way to draw different road underlay or overlay for level crossings? 21:58:36 <supermop> oh its on the to-do 21:59:57 <frosch123> most level crossing stuff is already provided by the railtype 22:00:07 <frosch123> so, it's more a rail thing 22:06:35 *** ToffeeYogurtPots_ has joined #openttd 22:06:43 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 22:17:05 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 22:19:38 *** Thedarkb1 has quit IRC 22:39:21 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 22:46:23 <supermop> frosch123: i wanted to add stripes before the crossing on some road types 22:46:35 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:51:29 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 23:05:39 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 23:08:59 *** synchris has quit IRC 23:24:37 *** Thedarkb1 has joined #openttd 23:26:12 <Wolf01> supermop: sorry, had a party this evening :P 23:27:11 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:38:03 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 23:46:03 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 23:55:35 <debdog> you should be too drunk to even type here then 23:56:33 <Wolf01> I don't drink