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00:09:11 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 00:12:35 *** gelignite has quit IRC 00:19:05 *** arikover` has joined #openttd 00:22:40 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 00:26:25 *** arikover has quit IRC 00:28:59 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN opened pull request #7549: Fix: Clicking on scrollbar 'thumb' moved position up instantly. https://git.io/fjGOQ 00:29:34 <Samu> oh crap, my ai suffered an humilating defeat 00:29:42 <Samu> desert tileset too hard 00:33:53 <Elon_Satoshi> oof ouch owie AI hurting juice 00:37:28 *** arikover` has quit IRC 00:39:20 <Elon_Satoshi> What do I do when my ratings drop to atrocious in a city? 00:40:07 <glx> plant trees 00:40:15 <glx> lot of trees 00:40:44 *** Progman has quit IRC 00:41:12 <Elon_Satoshi> what do you mean? 00:43:49 <_dp_> Elon_Satoshi, planting trees increases rating 00:44:21 <_dp_> Elon_Satoshi, or if you're not in mp just enable magic bulldozer 00:45:24 <_dp_> hm, though I guess bulldozer won't help when rating is already bad... 00:45:58 <_dp_> so, that leaves trees and bribes 00:46:43 <_dp_> enabling bulldozer just allows to avoid dealing with that nonsense in future 00:46:58 <Elon_Satoshi> you mean i could just bulldoze the town away? 00:47:19 <_dp_> yep 00:47:24 <Elon_Satoshi> ah 00:47:27 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 00:47:48 <Elon_Satoshi> i wonder what happens if i try to carry passengers n' stuff with a helicopter to and from the town that rates me atrocious 00:47:48 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 00:48:05 <Elon_Satoshi> Btw is multiplayer good for low bandwidth internet and high latency? 00:48:21 * Elon_Satoshi uses satelite internet and only plays chess 00:48:24 <peter1138> Not really. 00:48:32 <Elon_Satoshi> crap 00:48:39 <_dp_> Elon_Satoshi, helicopters or not doesn't matter, any active station increases rating, any inactive decreases 00:48:39 <peter1138> You need bandwidth initially to download the map from the server. 00:48:57 <Elon_Satoshi> i can wait 00:49:08 <peter1138> And then any action you perform goes via the server, so high latency is... not too fun. 00:49:13 <Elon_Satoshi> hmm 00:49:21 <_dp_> but server usually can't :( 00:51:47 <Elon_Satoshi> Ugh why aren't there any high latency friendly games? 00:51:54 <Elon_Satoshi> Besides chess 00:52:46 <peter1138> I remember play-by-mail games back in the 80s and 90s :-) 00:52:50 <peter1138> Super high latency... 00:53:07 <peter1138> And yes, that was sending a floppy disk in the post, not email :-) 00:53:36 * Elon_Satoshi wonders if play-by-mail games are cross compatible with IP over avian carrier 00:55:22 <peter1138> Heh 01:02:02 * Elon_Satoshi surrounds Highland Hills with so many trees they'll never see the horizon again 01:04:28 <Elon_Satoshi> wow they love me now 01:09:51 <Elon_Satoshi> Is OpenTT educational at all? 01:10:04 <Elon_Satoshi> s/TT/TTD 01:25:31 <peter1138> Programming it certainly is. 01:42:55 *** Samu has quit IRC 01:46:00 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 01:52:35 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 02:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause> people have said they used it in education 02:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> one would imagine turn-based games, like, say magic, would be good for high latency. but the modern online versions of those are probably still coded to kick you if you didn't respond in X seconds 02:06:00 <supermop_Home> go 02:06:29 <supermop_Home> tho kgs its hard to find matches for untimed games 02:06:49 <Elon_Satoshi> What parts of OpenTTD have to be live? 02:07:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: if you place a rail tile, every client in your game must place that rail tile in the exact same tick 02:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: so if you click on a tile to build, first this build attempt is sent to the server, the server verifies it, and sends it out to all clients with a tick number when it should happen 02:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: your game must pause until that message arrives 02:10:07 <Elon_Satoshi> Hmm 02:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the client always lags slightly behind the server for this reason, which is in itself not the problem. high latency will increase this lag, so a) you will have to wait some time for your click to result in an action, and b) the game state on the server might be different from the state that you see, because other people (or town growth, or whatever) might have changed the area you are building in 02:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> so you might frequently run into situations where your actions fail 02:15:21 <Eddi|zuHause> because something appeared to have been buildable for you, but on the server it failed 02:16:45 <peter1138> 03:08 < Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: your game must pause until that message arrives 02:16:48 <peter1138> Wut? 02:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i was maybe being overly simplifying 02:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but my understanding is that the server sends out a heartbeat a la "it is now safe to proceed to tick <X>" 02:19:58 <Elon_Satoshi> If my client locks up such that not even the cursor moves, is that because of server lag or client lag? It seems like a client lag thing though 02:20:06 <peter1138> The client always lags behind the server because the server is authoritative and must execute all commands first. 02:20:40 <peter1138> The cursor doesn't move then it's probably trying to catch up with the server. 02:21:17 <Elon_Satoshi> ah 02:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a high latency, then all the server's "proceed now to tick <X>" messages will probably arrive in bulk 02:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> and the client has to catch up 02:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so you will have a stop-and-go game 02:22:55 *** glx has quit IRC 02:23:02 <Elon_Satoshi> not even that, "Your computer took too long to join the server" 02:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that even the mouse locks up is a result of the very 90s architecture of the game core, where GUI and game logic aren't properly separated 02:23:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you need a specially configured server with higher lag timeouts 02:24:52 *** Flygon has quit IRC 02:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: joining a game is particularly problematic, because while you're downloading the map, the server already moves on, so when you finish downloading the map, you will also have to rush ahead to the current state of the server 02:27:49 <Elon_Satoshi> hmm 02:28:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: it helps if the server is paused 02:29:12 <Elon_Satoshi> maybe i'll just play singleplayer 02:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably better :) 02:29:40 <Elon_Satoshi> unless you need someone to help test experimental high latency multiplayer 02:29:54 <Elon_Satoshi> I offer 600ms ping time 02:30:01 <Elon_Satoshi> lol 02:30:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Elon_Satoshi: there once were a bunch of people who played a savegame for 10 years, then passed it around to the next person :) 02:30:29 <Elon_Satoshi> 10 years gametime or real time? 02:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> game time 02:30:36 <Elon_Satoshi> oh 02:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> which is like 2 hours of playtime 02:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (not counting pause) 02:32:01 <Elon_Satoshi> I think I'm gonna urge hyperrogue to make their network multiplayer latency friendly if they ever decide to add such a feature 02:32:49 <Elon_Satoshi> I wonder how well battle of wesnoth is with latency 02:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should stick to turn based games ;p 02:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause> have you tried CIV? :) 02:35:24 <Elon_Satoshi> you mean openciv? 02:35:28 <Elon_Satoshi> or was it freeciv? 02:35:47 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:35:56 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, that, or regular iv :p 02:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> civ 02:39:29 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 02:42:53 *** debdog has quit IRC 02:55:42 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7546: Fix #6507: Don't try to load invalid depots from older savegames https://git.io/fjG3H 04:19:48 *** fanioz has joined #openttd 04:42:01 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 04:44:19 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 04:44:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 04:51:18 *** tokai has quit IRC 04:58:56 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 05:17:41 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 05:18:02 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 05:28:49 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 05:31:38 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 05:33:04 *** fanioz has quit IRC 06:36:09 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:37:26 <andythenorth> yo 06:38:29 <nielsm> morn 06:39:52 <V453000> heyo 06:47:42 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:04:26 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:12:58 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:13:58 *** Speedy` has quit IRC 07:29:22 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 07:36:00 *** nielsm has quit IRC 07:48:40 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 07:54:15 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:57:14 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 08:09:54 *** fanioz has joined #openttd 08:22:42 *** fanioz has quit IRC 08:27:50 <V453000> which one is betterer ? https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=207835 08:28:23 <V453000> got conflicting answers so far :D 08:36:26 *** Progman has joined #openttd 08:58:33 *** Progman has quit IRC 08:59:22 *** Progman has joined #openttd 08:59:51 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 09:32:41 *** pnda has joined #openttd 09:41:34 *** fanioz has joined #openttd 09:42:53 <Artea> year 2991 09:43:14 <Artea> 1, 10^12 euros 09:43:27 <Artea> 6 aircraft crashed :( 09:45:56 <Artea> good morning 10:04:47 <peter1138> But is it? 10:10:49 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 10:10:54 <Wolf01> o/ 10:12:09 <Wolf01> Meh, snowing at 60km from here 10:16:23 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 10:16:50 <andythenorth_> so if we had arbitrary tracks on road tiles 10:17:03 <andythenorth_> I could do really big mining trucks 10:17:11 <andythenorth_> single one-way track 10:18:36 <andythenorth_> and feldbahn could have 4 tracks on a tile 10:19:55 <andythenorth_> cargo transport rate per tile is key game mechanic :D 10:22:22 <peter1138> Yeah but how? 10:25:20 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 10:26:30 <andythenorth_> dunno :) 10:26:33 <andythenorth_> biab 10:29:30 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 10:30:01 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 10:30:34 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 10:30:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 10:35:20 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 10:36:20 *** Speedy` has joined #openttd 11:06:56 *** Thedarkb-T60 has quit IRC 11:08:03 <peter1138> So a road type lists what lane combos it supports? 11:08:14 <peter1138> Hmm. 11:08:37 <Wolf01> Hmm 11:08:54 <frosch123> merging rail and roadtypes into one? 11:09:01 <peter1138> No. 11:09:30 <peter1138> Ideas for more than just two lanes. 11:10:03 * Wolf01 with Eddi's voice: state machine 11:10:20 <peter1138> Yes, that's lovely. 11:10:26 <peter1138> Guess what. That's what we need to define. 11:10:35 <peter1138> Just saying "state machine" doesn't make it happen. 11:11:11 <Wolf01> I would make one way roads make use of both lanes first 11:11:18 <frosch123> i guess then we need extra-zoom for world coordinates 11:11:42 <peter1138> Wolf01, that's pretty orthogonal to this. 11:12:21 <peter1138> frosch123, possibly, possibly not. 11:12:23 <Wolf01> Yes, you need to change the same bits of code 11:12:44 <peter1138> Wolf01, yeah, so you'd be doing it twice. 11:13:04 <Wolf01> Or at steps 11:14:08 <peter1138> Wolf01, but without thinking ahead as to the final solution, you end up with a half-assed interim that limits your final solution, or at least requires a load of otherwise unnecessary conversion. 11:14:27 <Wolf01> Yes, that's what happened with NRT 11:14:32 <peter1138> So you might have a good solution that works, only for it to be ripped out again. 11:16:13 <Wolf01> We need to define a fully flexible system which also allow dedicated lanes and how to assign them, the interface might be really complicate 11:19:11 <Wolf01> And, which will be the target? From 1 lane per tile to 4 lanes per tile? 11:22:18 <peter1138> frosch123, current lanes are at position 5 and 9, that leaves some room. 11:23:25 <frosch123> you have less room on horizontal and vertical tracks or curves 11:24:00 <frosch123> but i see andy's strategy to draw less pixels :p 11:34:36 <Artea> yeahhhhhh 11:34:43 <Artea> year 2999 11:34:52 <Artea> 1015 years has pass :D 11:43:32 <peter1138> There's just enough room for 'curves' 11:44:54 *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd 11:53:45 <peter1138> Wolf01, any further thoughts on that? 11:53:59 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 11:58:07 * Artea invites peter to try year 3001 and 818,100,000 euros loan 11:59:39 <Wolf01> Different speed limits per lane 12:00:11 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd 12:01:37 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 12:02:12 <Wolf01> Also... diagonal roads, while we are at it 12:03:00 <Wolf01> Only introduced by grfs 12:03:16 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 12:03:36 <Wolf01> He flew panicked? 12:11:31 *** gelignite has quit IRC 12:13:42 *** fanioz has quit IRC 12:16:33 *** fanioz has joined #openttd 12:39:34 <peter1138> The issue with diagonal roads is the transitions. 12:40:11 *** Samu has joined #openttd 12:41:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 12:42:28 *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd 12:43:18 <peter1138> Bah, managed to get a blister on my hand from 40 minutes work :p 12:43:29 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 12:44:59 <andythenorth> yo 12:46:04 * Artea on Infected Mushroom - I Wish (Accoustic Live Remix) @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmSjKwAbOio 12:46:40 <andythenorth> so the problem is how to define a list of directed edges between points on a tile? 12:47:07 <andythenorth> isn't defining vectors on a 2D plane a well solved problem? 12:47:28 <peter1138> What? 12:47:40 <andythenorth> yes 12:47:58 <andythenorth> where would we even start to define tracks? 12:48:02 <andythenorth> how are they currently defined? 12:48:17 * andythenorth will read src 12:48:49 <peter1138> I love it when people suggest random things and say it's solved. 12:51:37 <andythenorth> usually I say it, and Eddi tells me why I'm wrong 12:51:52 <andythenorth> then sometimes we make progress :P 12:53:35 <andythenorth> so roadveh_movement.h has a load of pairs defined for stuff 12:53:45 <andythenorth> am I starting in a roughly correct place? 13:08:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the current hardcoded state machines 13:09:10 <peter1138> So a new "state machine" needs to know how to go from lane A to lane B. 13:09:27 <Eddi|zuHause> these probably need ripping out and redoing with the hypothetical new state machine engine 13:09:28 <peter1138> It needs to know what lanes are available. 13:09:41 <peter1138> And that is about it :p 13:10:21 <peter1138> If someone wants to tackle converting TILE_SIZE from 16 to 64, that's... a big job. 13:11:14 <peter1138> How many lanes do you get on diagonal roads? o_O 13:11:26 <andythenorth> ouch 13:11:31 <andythenorth> diagonal roads are scary 13:11:41 <peter1138> Easy, diagonal roads can't have junctions. 13:11:51 <peter1138> So only 2 trackbits can be set. 13:12:06 <peter1138> If it has 4 trackbits set, it's a 4-way junction. 13:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that's quite some limitation 13:12:16 <peter1138> Disturbs me very sprites. 13:12:17 <andythenorth> I can't even begin to imagine how diagonal roads look like to build 13:12:42 <andythenorth> when I try to visualise it, I just get https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/52/Testcard_F.jpg 13:12:54 *** glx has joined #openttd 13:12:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 13:13:05 <peter1138> Let's see if I can complete MAP07 without dying. I am... using save/load, though. 13:13:33 <andythenorth> fair 13:15:50 *** supermop_Home has quit IRC 13:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> we currently have 4 trackbits, diagonal would add 8 more? (4 tile edges)x(3 exit directions) 13:18:22 <peter1138> I think trackbits would stay the same 13:18:27 <Eddi|zuHause> road vehicle movement would have some defined width, which imposes an effective minimum spacing of parallel lanes, but if there's nothing to stop you from setting the lane offsets narrower, the pathfinding needs ways to handle this 13:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i can't imagine how that works 13:19:14 <peter1138> Current 4 trackbits control 2 lanes. 13:19:28 <peter1138> 4 trackbits can thus be used to control 1, 2, 3 or whatever lanes. 13:20:01 <peter1138> A trackbit effectively means road exits that edge. 13:21:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so the trackbit gets ways to define not only lane offset, but also lane direction? 13:21:25 <peter1138> Eh, no? 13:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> how would it then allow diagonal road bits? 13:21:48 <peter1138> exits perhaps not the right word? road enters/exits/ 13:22:24 <peter1138> You just have a state machine (lol) that moves vehicles diagonally instead of around a corner. And then show that... er... visually. 13:23:33 <Eddi|zuHause> there's two problems with that: a) people will want predefined state machines for the most common situations, and b) you need to combine the state machines from the 4 road bits somehow 13:23:36 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7546: Fix #6507: Don't try to load invalid depots from older savegames https://git.io/fjGW7 13:24:08 <peter1138> There won't be anything other than predefined 'state machines' 13:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that's quite some limitation 13:24:49 * andythenorth wonders when the world will invent the irc collaborative equivalent of whiteboards, or fag packets in the pub 13:25:01 <andythenorth> it will be carnage, but often words don't cut it :P 13:25:17 <peter1138> NewGRF airports got stuck on state machine definition. Why would we want to get stuck again? 13:25:29 <peter1138> andythenorth, discord or slack probably has them. 13:25:34 <andythenorth> probably 13:25:44 <andythenorth> also, how else can keep up the required rate of rage quits? 13:25:54 <andythenorth> other than over-reaching and making people grumpy and stressed :P 13:26:38 <andythenorth> what's the worst thing we can do? 13:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: iirc the problem with airport state machines was allowing a way to write them (in NewGRF) while preserving the author's sanity 13:27:25 <peter1138> Yes. What's the difference? 13:27:47 <andythenorth> what are the available options? 13:27:58 <andythenorth> [newgrf defined state machines | pre-defined state machines] 13:28:01 <andythenorth> [other] ? 13:28:04 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe this is where truebrain comes in and tell us we're thinking too closely in existing solutions? :) 13:28:12 <andythenorth> TB is gonne 13:28:33 <Eddi|zuHause> over the jordan? 13:30:05 <andythenorth> possibly not that extreme 13:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (does that even translate?) 13:36:56 <andythenorth> if you mean 'is TB dead?' then yes 13:37:31 *** Flygon has quit IRC 13:37:32 <Alberth> I think you can compute them, but it's far from standard practice 13:40:07 <Alberth> basically model what can happen, and where the decision points are, then compute where stuff goes wrong and chop off that part of behavior at the decision point before it 13:43:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, that's the meaning i intended. my 30 seconds of googling only came up with origin explanations that i'd file under "bullshit" 13:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so i wasn't sure how "international" it is 13:43:55 <andythenorth> yeah I googled to check, but I'd heard it before 13:54:54 <andythenorth> turns out 60w is a lot more than 30w when it comes to USB-C PD 13:55:12 <andythenorth> 30w reduces the rate of battery consumption, 60w charges it quickly :P 13:55:31 <peter1138> It's almost double! 13:56:30 * andythenorth can only think in terms of lightbulbs 13:56:39 <andythenorth> very confusing comparing lightbulbs to laptops 13:56:58 <Eddi|zuHause> one lightbulb equals 10 LEDs 13:57:00 <andythenorth> also BIAB 14:05:30 *** supermop_Home has joined #openttd 14:15:49 *** Alberth has left #openttd 14:23:20 <Wolf01> Rise to ruins is giving me headaches 14:46:29 <Artea> MU Online just made me mad 14:46:35 <Artea> died in Devil's Square :( 14:59:54 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:03:31 <peter1138> So 15:03:41 <peter1138> We didn't get far. NRT is still unmerged. 15:03:54 <andythenorth> merge it? 15:10:03 *** Thedarkb-T60 has quit IRC 15:17:16 <peter1138> Ok, how many lanes should be permitted? 15:20:28 <andythenorth> 4? 15:21:44 <Wolf01> 4 15:22:52 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 15:26:43 *** D-HUND is now known as debdog 15:26:53 <Artea> I can see someone already asked for mp3/ogg player 15:30:32 <peter1138> Nah, 7 different lanes. 15:30:52 <peter1138> Then it's possible to have 3 centred. 15:31:13 <peter1138> Of course more than 4 at one time would be a little... cramped. 15:32:13 <peter1138> Also means you can have 1 centred lane. 15:33:11 <Artea> <andythenorth_> bbl, phone irc :p 15:33:12 <Artea> haha 15:34:27 <Artea> 2 years ago 15:34:35 <andythenorth> 7 makes sense 15:34:43 <andythenorth> but it would be weird to use all 7 :P 15:34:50 <Artea> readling logs is funny sometimes 15:34:52 <andythenorth> 2, 3, or 4 on differing offsets :P 15:36:00 <peter1138> So current roads would be lanes 2 and 4 15:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you should be able to give each lane any exit point along the edge 15:41:19 <peter1138> Possibly. 15:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> so, existing roads would have the lane configuration like {(5,NE),(9,SW)} 15:42:42 <Eddi|zuHause> generating a state machine on any random combination might be a pain 15:43:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and then we still haven't tackled overtaking 15:45:20 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: So basically you want OTTD to have https://www.wiki.sc4devotion.com/index.php?title=SC4Path_Format ? 15:49:39 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] YJSoft commented on issue #7511: Loading font from game folder not works at some windows version https://git.io/fjG4Y 15:51:24 *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd 15:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: not quite. what i have in mind right now, is that the NewGRF provides a list of lane patterns, and the 4 road bits on the tile each specify which list entry they are referring to. the tile must then come up with a state machine connecting the 4 road bits 15:54:38 <michi_cc> But traffic lights :D 15:54:49 <peter1138> Yikes, how large do you think our map array is? 15:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: how else are you going to have transition tiles? 15:58:18 <peter1138> Not like that. 15:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (also, we will need to double that, as road and tram can have different lane patterns) 16:00:31 *** Thedarkb-T60 has quit IRC 16:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the other option is prefab transition and crossing tiles ("traffic objects"), then with NewGRF state machine support. 16:03:32 <Eddi|zuHause> which will be subject to serious combinatorial explosion 16:03:48 <peter1138> And this is why we need limits. 16:04:05 <peter1138> Otherwise you end up with 1KB per map tile... 16:04:17 <peter1138> But at least it's a solved problem! 16:05:05 <Artea> (wondering if peter likes Brutal DooM) 16:06:51 *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd 16:06:52 <Eddi|zuHause> if you allow 2^X lane patterns per road type, you need X*4*2 map bits 16:07:12 <Eddi|zuHause> with X=4 that's 32bits 16:07:55 <peter1138> And that is not happening. 16:08:06 <Eddi|zuHause> just supporting the current one-way roads would already be 4 lane patterns 16:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having trouble imagining another system that is flexible enough to be useful 16:11:14 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should explain your thoughts then? 16:11:16 <V453000> hm the forums seem to prefer the second one, IRC so far prefers first one :D https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=207835 16:11:24 <V453000> lesson learned: don't ask people if you want a decisive answer :D 16:11:32 <V453000> what's the opinion here? 16:11:35 <peter1138> Who on IRC prefers the first one? 16:11:42 <peter1138> They're wrong. 16:11:46 <V453000> :D 16:11:47 <V453000> OH 16:11:53 <peter1138> And i@ve not seen anything about it here. 16:11:57 <V453000> is 2nd one that much better? 16:12:08 <LordAro> i prefer the first one 16:12:11 <LordAro> :p 16:12:29 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, prefabs 16:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i would consider a 3rd option 16:12:43 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: ? :D 16:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> having the outer engines "rounded", and the middle ones "blocky" 16:12:58 <peter1138> ^^ 16:13:02 <V453000> yay, no :D 16:13:16 <V453000> but yeah that would probably be nicest 16:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an easy check whether a vehicle is the first or the last in the chain, to switch graphics :p 16:14:12 <V453000> yes I already do that in many places 16:14:49 <V453000> I just can't say I want to draw a middle sprite version for every rounded train I have at the moment :D 16:15:18 <V453000> Also the 2nd option would probably be quite weird with 6 engines 16:15:26 <V453000> though, how often do you really build 4, or even 6 16:16:02 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't know, then how would i? :p 16:16:43 <peter1138> Remind me what the axonometric grid angles should be? 16:16:46 <Eddi|zuHause> if the vehicles are non-articulated, you can let the user handle it by ctrl+click flipping 16:16:48 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 16:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2) 16:17:25 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.463647609001 16:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc atan(1/2)*180/pi 16:17:31 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 26.5650511771 16:17:50 <Eddi|zuHause> is that what you were asking? 16:17:57 <peter1138> Yeah. 16:18:07 <peter1138> Bah, Inkscape rounds it to 26.57 16:18:25 <Eddi|zuHause> probably close enough :p 16:19:25 <frosch123> V453000: second one is way better 16:20:35 <frosch123> engines can be either /¯\ or /¯¯, but not /¯/¯ 16:23:08 <pnda> How do I draw a Button inside a Window? 16:23:34 <peter1138> You don't. 16:23:53 <peter1138> You add a button to the nested widget list. 16:24:10 <V453000> ok, 2nd one wins with overwhelming force :) thank you very much :) 16:24:18 <V453000> now I have to rewrite how it draws (: 16:24:33 * V453000 has the code generated from python :)))) 16:24:45 <V453000> much andy such wow 16:25:09 <frosch123> do you use andy horse stuff 16:25:14 <frosch123> or invent your own magic? 16:25:56 <V453000> no not that much andy 16:25:58 <V453000> just my own 16:26:01 <V453000> it's not that complicated 16:26:24 <V453000> I only use python to generate the first version and then fix bugs manually usually 16:26:31 <V453000> also the unique switches I write manually 16:26:35 <frosch123> yeah, i expected it to be easier to write your own magic nistead of using someone else's magic 16:26:58 <V453000> so it's just helpful for mass things, but it's not like I press 1 button and everything generates itself and compiles 16:27:01 <frosch123> uh, you edit the generated stuff? 16:27:05 <V453000> yes 16:27:08 <V453000> well some parts 16:27:14 <V453000> if something is a PITA to add to the code 16:27:24 <pnda> What's the button thingy for NWidget? 16:27:32 <V453000> but of course I try to avoid having to edit it at all 16:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> thats sounds like an antipattern 16:28:13 <V453000> well no Eddi, it's just trying to be reasonably time efficient. I don't need the generation script to be absolutely perfect to every detail and edge case, like if the first switch would end up with 0..0 or something 16:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the usual approach is to have some way to funnel the potential later edits into the generation process 16:28:20 <V453000> but yes the latest version generates a perfect thing atm 16:29:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the idea is to have the edits not lost if you run the generation again 16:29:09 <V453000> that's the perfect world yes Eddi but then you can spend a lot of time on details to perfectionalize the generator 16:29:17 <V453000> not always 16:29:30 <V453000> again, in a perfectly full-scale generated thing yes 16:29:34 <V453000> and I agree it's a nice thing 16:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> like in CETS i have a way to include hand-written switches from a separate file 16:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> like, if the generic articulation callback doesn't give the right result, i have a file with a custom one, and that gets used instead 16:30:53 <V453000> right 16:31:14 <V453000> well of course my setup isn't nearly as perfect 16:32:42 <V453000> it's just a different approach :P 16:42:30 <pnda> I don't really understand how to use a Button in a Window. Can anyone give some examples/help? 16:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> look for an existing window with a button? 16:43:25 <pnda> I did but implementing what I saw there crashed the game 16:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe tell us more what you did? 16:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> especially, what you did, and what you think you did. 16:45:08 <pnda> NWidget(WWT_PUSHTXTBTN, COLOUR_GREY) is what I had. Thought it would add a Button. Also didn't see the function that gets executed when pressing from the windows I looked at. 16:46:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i imagine there's a constructor somewhere that does things like specify which text is displayed, and which function is called 16:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: the examples of WWT_PUSHTXTBTN have another parameter to NWidget 16:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you follow that parameter, you should find things 16:50:37 <pnda> Which window did you look at? 16:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> none, just typed "grep WWT_PUSHTXTBTN src/*" 16:56:30 <pnda> Ah so I can just have a enum for widgets in my header file and then reference it from OnClick and in the WWT_PUSHTXTBTN? 17:16:19 <Samu> round 11 almost over 17:16:25 <Samu> 2 games remaining 17:17:36 *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd 17:35:56 <Samu> round 12 will be toyland 17:36:10 <Samu> who can provide the openttd.cfg? 17:36:15 <Samu> so that it's not always me 17:37:33 <peter1138> Er... 17:39:03 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 17:39:21 <peter1138> Hmm, so... 17:39:45 <andythenorth> eh what? 17:39:51 * andythenorth should read back 17:40:06 <andythenorth> automate everything! 17:41:25 <andythenorth> V453000: option 1 vs 2 is potato / potato 17:41:54 * Artea on Per Kristian Risvik - Evil Incarnate @ Liquiddoom Radio -> http://liquiddoom.net:8000/doom 17:42:21 <andythenorth> V453000: make it realistic! 17:42:26 <andythenorth> I find you a RL picture 17:43:17 * Artea is curious about peter's opinion about Brutal DooM 17:49:55 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7546: Fix #6507: Don't try to load invalid depots from older savegames https://git.io/fjGB7 17:51:57 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7546: Fix #6507: Don't try to load invalid depots from older savegames https://git.io/fjGBN 17:52:52 *** Gumle2 has quit IRC 17:55:33 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN commented on pull request #7546: Fix #6507: Don't try to load invalid depots from older savegames https://git.io/fjGBh 17:55:33 *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd 17:56:02 <andythenorth> V453000: just do realism https://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/images/nyc1802_rdl.jpg 17:57:00 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN approved pull request #7542: Fix #7255: Prevent crashlog corruption by only printing the 32 most recent news messages https://git.io/fjGRv 17:57:34 <peter1138> Artea, been busy... playing it with NJDoom2 17:58:51 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 17:59:23 <Artea> never heard 17:59:41 <Artea> I used to play in Zandronium 18:00:43 <peter1138> It's an ancient WAD that I used to play back in the day. 18:01:09 <peter1138> Got Hell Revealed II but that's way too hard, even without Brutal Doom. 18:02:22 <Artea> I used to play HR II in ZDaemon 18:02:45 <Artea> I miss Slaughterfest 18:03:28 <V453000> andythenorth: 18:03:31 <V453000> well now what. :D 18:03:42 <andythenorth> V453000: just do realism 18:03:50 <V453000> realizm is already implemented, that's simple 18:03:51 <peter1138> Never got very far with Evilution and the Plutonia stuff. 18:03:56 <andythenorth> V453000: random 18:03:56 <V453000> alternating is just tiny bit more code 18:04:00 <V453000> lol 18:04:10 <andythenorth> I always random if 2 equal choices :P 18:04:26 <peter1138> https://www.wad-archive.com/wad/Slaughterfest-2012 18:04:26 <peter1138> Hmm 18:06:12 <Artea> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScAu3DrWo7E 18:06:14 <Artea> peter1138 18:06:18 <Artea> I done this map solo 18:07:04 <peter1138> That doesn't look fun :p 18:07:16 <Artea> is ultra fun 18:07:30 <Artea> always sprint 18:08:10 <pnda> Do I have to make a comment describing every function even if it's a function used before in a window? e.g. DrawWidet(), OnClick() 18:08:52 <V453000> andythenorth: random is of course another option but in this case I rather wouldn't do that 18:09:01 <V453000> not to mention that it's handled by a rather long series of switches 18:11:51 <Artea> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAaCG_OJr9k 18:11:56 <Artea> done this map solo too 18:12:12 <Artea> and so awesome having Lufia Song in DooM 18:13:07 <Eddi|zuHause> ... it would probably take me hours to go through that slaughterfest thing 18:15:20 <Artea> takes alot of time to kill them all 18:18:47 <Wolf01> So, 7 lanes, one-way/no-entry bits for every lane, point-to-point exit or point-to-multipoint (and reverse)? 18:20:17 <Wolf01> For example, 3 entry points with 4 exits 18:22:58 <Wolf01> Access ramps too or it's out of scope? 18:23:05 <Wolf01> Bridges, tunnels? 18:23:27 <peter1138> I gave up. 18:24:00 <peter1138> Whatever I think of, Eddi|zuHause comes along and comes up with something way more flexible which just needs about 32 bytes per tile or something. 18:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :p 18:24:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i said 32bit :p 18:24:32 <nielsm> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1221089#p1221089 <- okay so the 1.9 releases running slow on macos 10.14 seem to run more like normal when run in fast-forward 18:24:54 <nielsm> which could indicate that the problem is either in the timing or in the sleeping 18:27:51 <pnda> So if I remove the position of a string somewhere and reuse it somewhere else, so from one window to another. Should I rename the string in every language to fit the new name or should I leave it as is (which could confuse some)? 18:30:54 <nielsm> how much movement is it? 18:31:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause came up with many problems for NRT :) 18:31:28 <andythenorth> but 2 types per tile was 'enough' :) 18:32:04 <pnda> STR_ABOUT_MENU_SCREENSHOT to idk, STR_SCREENSHOT_SCREENSHOT 18:33:06 <nielsm> if you're moving an option out of a menu you should definitely rename the string and physically move it somewhere else in english.txt 18:33:20 <pnda> Ok, only in english.txt? 18:33:25 <nielsm> since the menus often implicitly use series of strings 18:33:35 <pnda> yes they do 18:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> pnda: generally, you only change the english.txt file 18:33:43 <nielsm> well either delete or rename+move it in the other languages too 18:33:50 <pnda> Ok, will do, thanks 18:34:40 <peter1138> Well anyway, we don't have 32 free bits. 18:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: clearly, we need a more flexible map system :p 18:35:09 <peter1138> Bollocks to that. 18:35:40 <andythenorth> 'good enough' 18:35:48 <andythenorth> this is only worth doing if it's fun 18:36:45 <milek7> 38fps still seems too slow with these timings 18:38:44 <pnda> Will I have to edit strings.h or is that auto generated? 18:39:43 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 18:39:54 <andythenorth> 38fps on any decent mac is frigging slow 18:39:56 <pnda> ah, auto-generated 18:40:20 <andythenorth> I can push through 2000fps easy 18:40:31 <andythenorth> different OS though 18:40:58 <pnda> I'm always at 40fps, Fast Forward sometimes over 10000 18:43:20 <nielsm> milek7 yeah it's way too slow but at least it proves that it should be capable of outputting more frames per second than it does in non-ffwd 18:48:32 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 18:48:53 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 18:50:21 *** Gumle2 has quit IRC 18:53:16 <andythenorth> I can't do it now, but I can upgrade an external boot drive to 10.14 and test 18:53:54 <nielsm> ah that'd be useful 18:54:47 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 18:55:22 <pnda> I can't see how to change the font colour for a NWidget(WWT_PUSHTXTBTN). Does anyone know? 18:56:05 <nielsm> tried putting colour codes in the string in english.txt? 18:56:57 <pnda> true...lol 18:57:39 <pnda> Can I add a string myself right now for english.txt? I know other files have to be done through the webtranslator, but this is not translating 18:58:28 <nielsm> yes just add new strings to english.txt when necessary 19:06:29 <pnda> Where are the strings for the help dropdownlist defined? I can't find them 19:06:57 <nielsm> probably right next to STR_ABOUT_MENU_SCREENSHOT 19:07:45 <pnda> Using search all files I can only find that string inside of the language txt files 19:07:59 <nielsm> oh you mean where in the code the menu is generated? 19:08:10 <pnda> No, I found that 19:08:33 <pnda> toolbar_gui.cpp:185 is the general function that gets used 19:08:46 <nielsm> line 1052 19:08:52 <nielsm> PopupMainToolbMenu(w, WID_TN_HELP, STR_ABOUT_MENU_LAND_BLOCK_INFO, _settings_client.gui.newgrf_developer_tools ? 13 : 10); 19:09:16 <nielsm> the first string id in the menu, and then the count of consecutive string ids to use for the menu 19:09:22 <pnda> Ahhhhhh right 19:09:40 <nielsm> which is why you need to move the original string away if you're removing the item from the menu 19:09:43 <pnda> Because STR_ABOUT_MENU_LAND_BLOCK_INFO gets +1 for each item in the menu 19:11:20 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 19:20:43 * peter1138 bacvk 19:23:28 <pnda> I removed the button from the top right row but it's still there in a way https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442748131898032138/572140743926480917/unknown.png 19:23:38 <pnda> I already did a rebuild 19:24:12 <pnda> This is the code: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pwul3cvlf 19:24:12 <nielsm> the "broken" space? 19:24:39 <pnda> yes 19:24:49 <nielsm> SetFill(1, 1), 19:24:56 <nielsm> on every button 19:25:05 <nielsm> lets them stretch to fit width 19:25:48 <pnda> thanks a lot 19:27:23 <nielsm> (and it's important to put it on everything, since some translations may have unexpectedly long or short strings for some things :) 19:27:27 *** pnda has quit IRC 19:27:35 <nielsm> (unless of course the thing should not stretch) 19:46:56 <peter1138> Debian Stretch 19:47:03 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 19:58:48 <Samu> round 11 finally over 19:58:58 <Samu> need a openttd cfg for round 12 19:59:01 <Samu> plz provide 19:59:18 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 20:01:40 * andythenorth should Hog 20:01:42 <andythenorth> but tanks 20:01:52 * peter1138 should... something? 20:06:07 <andythenorth> just merge NRT 20:06:10 <V453000> getbits(extra_callback_info1, 8, 8) this is what does layer drawing stuff? 20:06:13 <andythenorth> and await bug reports 20:06:19 <V453000> from andy's paste :) 20:06:28 <V453000> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p9dnkcojz#line-708 20:06:30 <andythenorth> sunglasses emoticon? o_O 20:06:40 <andythenorth> that's layers bollocks yes 20:06:49 <andythenorth> I draw pantographs separate layer 20:06:54 <andythenorth> is batshit 20:06:56 <V453000> yarr 20:07:20 <V453000> I had some completely batshit thing there that frosch showed me, but I don't even pretend to know what it was supposed to do back in the day 20:07:47 <V453000> probably for some incredibly hideous plan I Had 20:09:11 <V453000> also andythenorth [22:06] <@Happpy> Hi v no pax ships what the hell 20:09:17 <V453000> unsinkable dude :D 20:12:02 <andythenorth> eh wat? 20:12:17 <V453000> unsinkable sam has no passengers ships? 20:12:26 <V453000> anyway, it keeps drawing a single layer for me :( 20:13:09 <glx> nielsm: seems macos and allegro both use gettimeofday to get ticks 20:13:41 <andythenorth> V453000: there's a thing with register 101 iirc 20:13:45 <andythenorth> has frosch gone? 20:13:58 <andythenorth> if register 101 is used elsewhere, layers fail 20:14:01 * andythenorth would have to check that 20:14:19 <nielsm> glx yeah, I suspect it might lack precision for whatever reason 20:14:33 <V453000> what do you mean register 101 20:14:42 <V453000> item ID? 20:15:27 *** Gumle2 has joined #openttd 20:16:48 <V453000> well I was using item ID 101 but no that didn't help :) 20:17:22 <andythenorth> temp storage 20:17:25 <andythenorth> I am trying to find the docs 20:17:43 <V453000> :0 wtf 20:17:47 <glx> and man page for gettimeofday says it's obsolete 20:18:20 <V453000> well I do vaguely remember I was trying to make an experiment with NUTS and layering earlier and it did not work for reasons I didn't discover ... the layering switch seems identical to what doesn't work for me today as well. 20:18:33 <andythenorth> ok so XXX_FLAG_SPRITE_STACK 20:18:48 <andythenorth> means using temp storage 0x100 20:19:22 <V453000> oh 20:19:22 <andythenorth> if anything else uses 0x100, sprite layers fail V453000 20:19:31 <andythenorth> took me frigging ages to debug that one night 20:19:42 <V453000> but what does any of thise mean 20:19:44 <andythenorth> it's documented though 20:19:47 <V453000> what is the flag :D 20:19:52 <V453000> and where do I see 0x100 :D 20:19:53 <andythenorth> that enables sprite layers 20:20:04 <V453000> it's a flag in the item? 20:20:04 <andythenorth> paste your code? 20:20:49 <V453000> layer switch https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pnrokmkwd 20:20:51 <V453000> no flags in vehicles 20:21:31 <V453000> ooh found this in my old prototype misc_flags: bitmask(TRAIN_FLAG_SPRITE_STACK); 20:22:40 *** Gumle2 has quit IRC 20:24:16 <V453000> misc_flags: bitmask(TRAIN_FLAG_SPRITE_STACK, TRAIN_FLAG_FLIP, TRAIN_FLAG_2CC); 20:24:19 <V453000> added this to item 20:24:22 <V453000> doesn't seem to work yet 20:24:49 <andythenorth> V453000: there's a fancy switch you have to use https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p9dnkcojz#line-820 20:25:22 <andythenorth> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Composing_vehicles_from_multiple_sprites 20:28:49 *** supermop_Home has quit IRC 20:29:39 <V453000> what in the hell 20:32:28 <V453000> why does this return the same for 0 and 1 and then something in return? https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p9dnkcojz#line-830 20:35:32 <andythenorth> getbits(extra_callback_info1, 8, 8) is the var for count of layers 20:35:55 <andythenorth> so I use 3 layers there 20:36:26 <andythenorth> if it's layer 0 or 1 it keeps going up the graphics chain to another switch 20:36:38 <andythenorth> if it's layer 2, it switches to draw rear lights 20:36:59 <andythenorth> broke my brain making the pantograph stuff :| 20:39:41 <V453000> well this is wrong, but there are some differences :D https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pf9x4f4bt 20:39:48 <V453000> I pasted some bits from your thing 20:39:51 <V453000> not so easily I guess :) 20:41:32 <V453000> I have this from frosch https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pjjacbu8t 20:42:08 <V453000> which looks nasty but does seem to connect a lot of the things I see around 20:43:17 <V453000> jesus fucking christ 20:43:19 <V453000> it actually works 20:43:23 <V453000> I was just missing the flag 20:43:24 <V453000> :D 20:43:31 <V453000> in frosch we trust 20:43:39 <andythenorth> frosch's thing makes total sense 20:43:41 <andythenorth> really simples 20:43:52 <V453000> yeah it makes the absolute definition of sense to me 20:43:56 <V453000> :D 20:44:12 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] PeterN dismissed a review for pull request #7485: Add: Dropdown build menus from toolbar have icons https://git.io/fjGm6 20:44:15 <V453000> but it works :) can fully implement tomorrow 20:44:24 <andythenorth> counts up to 4, then stops 20:44:28 <andythenorth> and you haz 4 layers 20:44:41 <V453000> that's the <4 right 20:44:50 <V453000> so if I were using 2 layers, I'd put <2 there instead 20:50:47 <andythenorth> probs 20:51:28 <V453000> I'll try tomorrow :) thing works with 4 now, got it commited, saved :) I'll try to make it work with 2 or 3 layers tomorrow :) thank you super much andy 20:51:32 <V453000> this stuff is bonkers wtf for me 20:51:33 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 21:03:48 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 21:10:34 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe updated pull request #7328: Improve restart https://git.io/fhxPf 21:12:05 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:14:27 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe commented on pull request #7328: Improve restart https://git.io/fjGEy 21:14:34 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Berbe commented on pull request #7328: Improve restart https://git.io/fjGES 21:23:32 <Samu> round 12 started 21:26:01 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:35:33 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 21:46:56 *** Thedarkb-T60 has quit IRC 21:49:32 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 21:56:08 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:06:09 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:08:14 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 22:10:10 *** nielsm has quit IRC 22:10:25 *** Thedarkb-T60 has joined #openttd 22:14:38 *** erratic has joined #openttd 22:45:32 <DorpsGek_II> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stale[bot] closed pull request #7081: Change: [Linkgraph] Pause the game when linkgraph jobs lag (#6470) https://git.io/fh2Pg 22:45:51 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:00:39 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:07:04 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 23:18:47 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 23:19:08 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd