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00:10:15 *** TooTallTyler has joined #openttd 00:55:31 *** Speedy` has quit IRC 01:02:21 <supermop_Home> well i forgot to eat dinner 01:20:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that might be a problem at 3AM :p 01:21:29 *** gelignite has quit IRC 02:03:44 *** Yexo is now known as Guest24816 02:03:48 *** Yexo has joined #openttd 02:03:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo 02:04:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 commented on issue #140: 0.5.1 - animated forest tiles from OpenGFX+ Industries disappear https://git.io/JflSO 02:10:00 *** debdog has joined #openttd 02:11:06 *** Guest24816 has quit IRC 02:13:21 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 02:26:58 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 02:28:25 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:34:46 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 02:45:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 opened pull request #141: Fix #140: non-advanced sprite layouts don't have flags https://git.io/Jflj3 03:30:34 *** glx has quit IRC 04:26:44 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 04:38:03 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 05:00:02 <TooTallTyler> My town set decreases how much mail is produced by towns (houses produce nearly none, commercial is slightly increased) so I'd like to try increasing mail delivery payments to compensate. Does anyone know A: Mail's default price factor, and B: If I only define the price factor, will the cargo inherit its other properties from the base game cargo, or do I have to define the entire cargo? 05:01:54 *** TooTallTyler has quit IRC 05:30:38 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 05:40:55 *** plastic has joined #openttd 05:48:16 *** plstc has quit IRC 06:02:30 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 06:02:57 *** plstc has joined #openttd 06:08:16 *** plastic has quit IRC 06:19:33 *** plastic has joined #openttd 06:26:46 *** plstc has quit IRC 06:40:47 *** plstc has joined #openttd 06:46:46 *** plastic has quit IRC 06:47:05 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:24:16 *** plstc has quit IRC 07:25:34 *** supermop_Home has quit IRC 07:39:22 <andythenorth> o/ 07:41:42 <planetmaker> o/ 07:48:07 *** Samu has joined #openttd 07:49:01 <Samu> hi 07:51:50 *** plstc has joined #openttd 07:52:08 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 08:02:22 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 08:19:38 *** cHawk- has quit IRC 08:20:37 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8140: Fix #8137: New clients can't join (desync) after funding an industry https://git.io/Jf8OW 08:21:49 *** matt21347 has joined #openttd 08:23:38 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8140: Fix #8137: New clients can't join (desync) after funding an industry https://git.io/Jf8OE 08:24:15 <LordAro> i'm not going to merge them though :p 08:54:50 *** plastic has joined #openttd 08:55:52 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #8140: Fix #8137: New clients can't join (desync) after funding an industry https://git.io/Jf836 08:56:11 *** plastic has quit IRC 09:01:01 *** plstc has quit IRC 09:06:49 <_dp_> LordAro, btw, https://stackoverflow.com/a/14678298 09:07:46 <LordAro> mm, i do recall reading something similar before, now that i think about it 09:10:05 <_dp_> LordAro, well, the whole STL is not templated for no reason ;) 09:11:34 <_dp_> and rust even dropped polymorphism in favor of templates xD 09:12:22 <_dp_> they're done much better in rust though 09:13:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] hpiirai opened issue #8142: Loading savegame from 1.10.1 fails: ”Wrong owner for station tile” https://git.io/Jf8sz 09:13:56 <Heiki> (yes, that was me) 09:15:29 <LordAro> Heiki: well that's problematic 09:16:02 <LordAro> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8134 09:17:19 *** juzza1 has quit IRC 09:29:21 *** cHawk- has joined #openttd 09:34:43 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 10:07:17 *** Yoshi has joined #openttd 10:07:42 <Yoshi> Hello, long time not heared ;) 10:09:18 <Yoshi> After the Bananas Upgrade... What is the current way of reporting copyright infringing content? Mail to abuse@openttd.org? 10:09:49 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ilayaraja97 commented on issue #8131: Missing bounding boxes for bridge pillars of height 1 cause graphical glitches https://git.io/JfWqh 10:12:41 <LordAro> Yoshi: if that was the way before, it's the way now too 10:12:46 <LordAro> that bit hasn't changed 10:13:06 <Yoshi> I'm not sure if it was the way before :D 10:13:16 <LordAro> neither am i :p 10:13:19 <LordAro> TrueBrain: ^ ? 10:13:21 <Yoshi> There is no embedded "report" function on bananas 10:13:56 <Yoshi> on openttd.org, there is an abuse@openttd.org listed at the contact form 10:16:02 <TrueBrain> Yup, mail to abuse. And we should indeed add it on the site too, good suggestion :) 10:16:32 <Yoshi> Who receives this email? :D 10:16:37 <TrueBrain> I hope abuse still routes the mail correctly, but it should :D (sorry, we don't have that many reports) 10:16:45 <TrueBrain> I for one 10:17:06 <Yoshi> The I'll just send a quick mail and stay here :) 10:17:18 <TrueBrain> But the point of these aliases is that enough people get it so it is processed :) 10:17:21 <TrueBrain> Sure! 10:20:11 <TrueBrain> Bah, cannot login to the server to check who is attached to the abuse alias :p feel free to CC me too; just to be sure :) 10:28:08 <Yoshi> Sent :) 10:30:21 <Yoshi> And sent again to you :D 10:31:20 <TrueBrain> Cheers. Most likely greylisted, so it might take a bit to reach me, but I will pick it up tonight. And sorry you had to use it .... 10:33:56 <Yoshi> I wonder why I didn't use it earlier... The three entries are from 2015 :think: 10:34:21 <Yoshi> Seems like I am absent for way too long time 10:34:53 <TrueBrain> Ghehe 10:35:39 <Yoshi> Transport Fever took over 99% of my free time on computer :D 10:41:35 <TrueBrain> Priorities! :p 10:41:57 <TrueBrain> Received the email. Will process it later today! 10:42:14 <Yoshi> Thank you :) 10:42:40 <Yoshi> If there are any remarks or questions, just respond to the mail 11:01:33 *** mcbanhas has joined #openttd 11:01:44 <mcbanhas> Hello 11:04:08 <mcbanhas> So for the altered texts, I wanted o submit all capitalization changes first. Should I create a new PR or modify PR #7870? 11:07:54 <planetmaker> hi 11:07:59 <planetmaker> https://bananas.openttd.org/package/newgrf/42530102 11:07:59 <planetmaker> https://bananas.openttd.org/package/newgrf/42530103 11:07:59 <planetmaker> https://bananas.openttd.org/package/newgrf/42530101 11:08:11 <planetmaker> ^^ I received the e-mail and checked the validity of Yoshi's claim 11:09:08 <planetmaker> Yoshi, same question here, as you're around: are you ok with disabling the newgrf for all versions and removing it from the accessible list - but keeping it for people with a savegame which requires it? 11:10:02 <Yoshi> Hi planetmaker :) 11:10:08 <planetmaker> That stops distribution - except in cases where an existing savegame would be broken. I'd like to kindly ask you to allow continued distribution in that case 11:10:32 <Yoshi> What happens, if a new server has it in the list? 11:10:45 <Yoshi> Will clients still be able to download it? 11:10:58 <planetmaker> If a server's savegame would use it, yes, then the clients would be allowed to download it, too. 11:11:28 <planetmaker> that's technically "a savegame needs it" 11:11:36 <Yoshi> As far as I understand, Brianum was or is a server, thus, that was the only purpose of these entries. 11:11:55 <planetmaker> oh, ok 11:12:16 <LordAro> mcbanhas: probably ultimately cleaner if you make a new PR 11:12:31 <planetmaker> let me see... whether I can find the account 11:12:32 <LordAro> reuse is good, but we're not limited by numbers :) 11:15:05 <Yoshi> All three vehicles are included in the DACH 0.3.2, seems like whoever runs or runned that server jus extracted it and reduced the cost property 11:16:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker I wondered about replying to this, but not sure what to say? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=71029 11:16:35 <planetmaker> I'm not sure what to reply myself tbh... 11:16:48 <planetmaker> I'd like to suggest that people a working github solution 11:18:02 <andythenorth> coop infra is on life support? 11:18:10 <andythenorth> maybe we just say the facts and move on 11:18:12 <andythenorth> transparency 11:18:33 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, can I hand out the e-mail of the account who uploaded the NewGRFs in question? 11:18:43 <planetmaker> So that the two can sort it out themselves, ideally? 11:20:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes... I feel struggling to keep it properly running and maintained. It's better to move on. It's ... no-one properly taking care of... I'm still missing time. Was much more fun when it was a group of people 11:20:26 <andythenorth> :) 11:20:38 <andythenorth> maybe we just put that 11:20:46 <planetmaker> I don't mind at all to have the server running. But I don't have time to maintain all services 11:22:26 <planetmaker> Yoshi, may I hand out your e-mail to the account who uploaded the NewGRFs. With a time of like ... 3 days to respond to you so that you two can sort it out that either he updates or disables NewGRFs? 11:23:04 <planetmaker> And I'm sure you two can talk it out in German even ;) 11:24:38 *** Lejving_ has joined #openttd 11:25:14 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 11:25:19 <Yoshi> You may send him legal@mguertler.de as contact mail 11:26:51 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC 11:27:06 *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd 11:27:19 <planetmaker> ok. Thank you. 3 days is ok, and when he doesn't reply, please tell us again. We don't want your stand in that way... jsut have a good community where people can tal to eachother 11:27:36 <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/8142 - the station is a buoy, the tile owner is water, the station->owner is none. This is intended behaviour for buoys, but why does it only crash in debug build? 11:28:55 <Samu> or will it also crash in release build? 11:29:17 <Yoshi> Planetmaker: Yes, indeed talking to sort things out is better :) Part of my everyday "job" over at the Transport Fever community too... 11:31:27 *** Lejving has quit IRC 11:33:18 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 11:33:31 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 11:38:12 <planetmaker> Hi, 11:38:12 <planetmaker> it was brought to our attention that three of your NewGRFs are violating 11:38:12 <planetmaker> copyright: 11:38:12 <planetmaker> https://bananas.openttd.org/package/newgrf/42530102 11:38:12 <planetmaker> https://bananas.openttd.org/package/newgrf/42530103 11:38:13 <planetmaker> https://bananas.openttd.org/package/newgrf/42530101 11:38:15 <planetmaker> The Graphics are originally part of the DACH set and licensed under GPL 11:38:17 <planetmaker> v2 - thus you are required to honour that license. CC-BY-SA is not a 11:38:19 <planetmaker> compatible license. 11:38:23 <planetmaker> Please contact the author of the DACH set 11:38:25 <planetmaker> legal@mguertler.de 11:38:27 <planetmaker> immediately so that you can find a resolution to the issue. 11:38:29 <planetmaker> If we don't hear back within 3 days (that is till 15th May 2020) from 11:38:31 <planetmaker> the DACH set author, we will have to disable your NewGRFs unconditionally. 11:38:33 <planetmaker> Best regards, 11:38:35 <planetmaker> ^^^ that's what I sent him now 11:39:39 <LordAro> planetmaker: we tell people off for far fewer lines, y'know 11:39:49 <planetmaker> yes, I know 11:39:54 <planetmaker> rightfully :P 11:40:56 <Yoshi> sounds good :) 11:43:16 <Yoshi> Regarding the Talk is better than hard Judgement... Austrian Set by PNDA was such a case too. He took graphics from DACH Set without asking, but finally he sorted things out and even got more from me ^^ 11:44:22 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 11:44:39 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 11:46:06 <planetmaker> it most often is ignorance rather than malevolence 11:46:22 <Yoshi> indeed 11:46:27 <LordAro> good ol' hanlon 11:46:50 <Yoshi> but sadly, sometimes ignorance turnes over to malevolence, when the original author claims 11:47:52 <planetmaker> well. First thing I checked was: which NewGRF is older :) Then I checked graphics ingame for similarity... well. This case identical :) 11:48:24 <Yoshi> clear case :D 11:48:44 <planetmaker> this one very much so. I wish it always was that easy :) 11:49:31 <planetmaker> but ofc... it also was easy as I knew somewhat the DACH set 11:49:37 <Yoshi> ^^ 11:50:00 <Yoshi> In german OpenTTD community, it nowadays seems to be as known as the DBSet ^^ 11:50:37 <planetmaker> I'm not surprised. It's the difference between vapourware and something real :) 11:55:05 <Yoshi> I still need a 48hour day... then I could continue with all the old projects :D 11:55:21 <planetmaker> tell me about it :) 11:58:18 <Yoshi> Number One Item on my wishlist is the time reverser of Hermione 11:58:21 <Yoshi> ^^ 12:10:20 *** supermop_Home_ has joined #openttd 12:10:31 <supermop_Home_> hello 12:15:21 <Samu> I'm intrigued why does the save in #8142 load in 1.10.1 12:16:00 <Samu> should go through the same tests 12:16:04 <Samu> should fail 12:17:45 <LordAro> Samu: the fix in #8134 will be (or was going to be) in 1.10.2, it's not been released yet 12:17:53 <LordAro> so it's not going through the same tests 12:17:59 <LordAro> clearly the fix is wrong, or missing some edgecase 12:18:31 <Samu> what fix, where is it 12:18:38 <Samu> ah 8134 12:18:43 <Samu> nvm i fail 12:19:48 <LordAro> Samu: though please do investigate exactly what's happened 12:20:01 <Samu> it's about a buoy 12:20:20 <Samu> buoy has a tile owner OWNER_WATER 12:20:26 <LordAro> ah 12:20:31 <Samu> and the station->owner has OWNER_NONE 12:20:41 <Samu> mismatch 12:20:43 <LordAro> indeed 12:20:47 <LordAro> put it in the issue, please :) 12:20:54 <Samu> but all buoys are like that 12:21:11 <Samu> well, almost all 12:21:13 <LordAro> indeed, a missed edgecase in the fix 12:22:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #8142: Loading savegame from 1.10.1 fails: ”Wrong owner for station tile” https://git.io/Jf8sz 12:25:06 <Samu> reminds me of my Build on Competitor canal 12:25:25 <Samu> i had made changes to buoy owner 12:25:28 <Samu> there 12:27:28 <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/8134/files 12:27:31 <Samu> ya, i see 12:27:40 <Samu> exactly that where it crashes 12:29:17 <Samu> erm... not crash, i mean errors 12:29:25 <LordAro> yes 12:29:33 <LordAro> we all knew that 12:29:45 <Samu> sorry, I'm typically slow 12:29:50 <LordAro> that message was only added recently :p 12:29:57 <LordAro> no need to restate it 12:38:49 <andythenorth> planetmaker FWIW https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1231999#p1231999 12:40:08 <LordAro> andythenorth: copying the majority of what OGFX does should be enough for most people 12:40:23 <LordAro> possibly also with what nml does for adding files to the GH release 12:40:27 <andythenorth> if there are no python deps 12:40:34 <andythenorth> and it's just nmlc + a makefile 12:40:41 <LordAro> indeed 12:40:41 <andythenorth> seems vanilla? 12:40:55 <andythenorth> I did get Azure building FIRS and publishing it to S3 12:40:55 <LordAro> someone should make a friendly OTTD GH action :) 12:41:03 <andythenorth> but Azure is a lot of clicking buttons :( 12:41:34 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 12:52:28 *** plstc has joined #openttd 12:58:11 *** glx has joined #openttd 12:58:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 13:01:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne opened pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given. https://git.io/Jf8BZ 13:03:39 <FLHerne> Oops 13:03:44 <LordAro> FLHerne: also, is not None 13:03:49 <LordAro> s/not// 13:03:59 <FLHerne> LordAro: Yes, I know 13:04:21 <FLHerne> The 'and not sources' was a last-minute thought, and I clearly wasn't paying attention ;P 13:05:05 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given. https://git.io/Jf8BZ 13:06:42 <Samu> _dp_ don't forget headquarter 13:06:52 <Samu> at #8140 13:06:56 <FLHerne> Oh now what 13:07:45 <_dp_> Samu, what about headquarters? 13:07:59 <Samu> they produce pass and mail 13:08:04 <_dp_> Samu, and? 13:09:27 <Samu> im not sure, does it handle HQs? 13:09:49 <_dp_> Samu, yeah, why shouldn't it? 13:10:54 <Samu> ok then 13:13:07 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 opened pull request #8143: Fix #8142, 5aa6351: Buoy owner and tile owner can be different https://git.io/Jf8BX 13:13:29 <glx> stupid buoys 13:16:05 <Samu> glx have a look at my big PR #7937, it handles buoy owners 13:16:39 <LordAro> glx: waypoints aren't affected, are they? 13:16:53 <glx> waypoints have a real owner 13:17:27 <glx> buoys have none and the tile can be water owned or any player 13:17:53 <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7937/files#diff-7ffe265d9d3938fe4f4257dfa6726142R640 13:18:01 <LordAro> FLHerne: ah, no f-strings in python3.5 13:18:03 <LordAro> sorry :p 13:18:41 <LordAro> though all the other versions have issues as well 13:18:41 <FLHerne> LordAro: We should just merge https://github.com/Xaroth/nml/commit/b5c517728dc77ffa5e3423bbce78ef381de699ae already :P 13:18:54 <LordAro> FLHerne: 3.5 still supported for a few more months :p 13:19:02 <FLHerne> I know, fixing it all 13:19:16 <Xaroth> I was summoned 13:20:15 <Xaroth> 3.5 is end of support; end of life in about 4 months iirc 13:21:01 <Xaroth> 3.6 is end of support and EOL end of next year, but it's also still used by some LTS distros 13:21:25 <Xaroth> so going beyond 3.6 is a bit meh atm 13:21:29 <LordAro> mm 13:21:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8143: Fix #8142, 5aa6351: Buoy owner and tile owner can be different https://git.io/Jf8RL 13:22:09 <LordAro> _dp_: good thing you made us wait for 1.10.2, otherwise we would've missed ^ 13:22:32 <glx> and nice someone tried a nightly 13:23:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 merged pull request #8143: Fix #8142, 5aa6351: Buoy owner and tile owner can be different https://git.io/Jf8BX 13:23:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 closed issue #8142: Loading savegame from 1.10.1 fails: ”Wrong owner for station tile” https://git.io/Jf8sz 13:26:39 <_dp_> yeah, worked out nicely xD 13:26:42 <Samu> i would rather change buoys 13:26:57 <Samu> j/k 13:26:58 <glx> and introduce new bugs ? 13:27:10 <glx> not for an easy backportable fix 13:27:13 <Samu> introduce canal owners 13:27:51 <Samu> now I got to unfix your fix on my PR :) 13:27:56 <Samu> heh 13:28:12 <FLHerne> Xaroth: Only need 3.6 for the f-strings 13:30:13 *** plastic has joined #openttd 13:31:01 <Samu> _dp_, just tested headquarters, it still works, it uses the ForAllStationsAroundTiles 13:32:02 <mcbanhas> Anyone can tell me why I'm getting this error msg: 13:32:10 <mcbanhas> jvitorino@jvitorino-X550DP:~/openttd$ git checkout upstream -b <textupdate> 13:32:10 <mcbanhas> bash: syntax error near unexpected token `newline' 13:32:53 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 13:32:53 *** plastic has quit IRC 13:33:15 *** plastic has joined #openttd 13:33:16 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: < and > are special characters to bash 13:33:19 <Yexo> If that's literally what you tried: The '<' and '>' symbols trigger text redirects, that's not what you want 13:33:46 <mcbanhas> yep that fixed it 13:33:54 <mcbanhas> thanks 13:34:13 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: `command > filename` means "write the output to that file" 13:34:33 <FLHerne> So it sees the >, and it's expecting a filename to follow 13:36:51 *** plstc has quit IRC 13:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if you really want the <> there, put it in single quotes: '<blah>' 13:41:15 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 13:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but you shouldn't want the <> there, really 13:42:06 <Samu> IsSaveGameVersionUntil is conflicting with many of my PRs :( I wonder now if i place my code past the until or before the until 13:43:20 <glx> I'd say after as I guess you have a savegame upgrade 13:43:47 <Samu> ok, thx 13:44:13 <glx> it's logical to apply new fixes after others 13:45:18 <glx> unless the fixes are needed before other checks 13:48:57 <Samu> there should be a pull --force in github desktop. There is but once i make a change in visual studio, it's gone 13:50:52 *** plstc has joined #openttd 13:52:55 <Samu> there is no IsSaveGameVersionAfter function :( 13:53:23 <nielsm> that's just the negation of IsSavegameVersionBefore 13:53:35 <Samu> ah, that may work, gonna try 13:53:43 <glx> or negation of until 13:54:02 <glx> depending on wanted starting point 13:54:34 <glx> before is <, until is <= 13:55:34 <dwfreed> negation of < is >=, and negation of <= is > 13:56:10 <Samu> if ((!IsBuoyTile(t) || IsSavegameVersionBefore(SLV_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL)) && bst->owner != GetTileOwner(t)) SlErrorCorrupt("Wrong owner for station tile"); 13:56:17 <Samu> testing 13:56:51 *** plastic has quit IRC 13:57:29 <Samu> nop, failed 13:57:31 <Samu> im dumb 13:59:18 <Samu> 0x10 means... ONWER_NONE if I recall 13:59:22 <LordAro> Samu: that looks very much like the wrong solution 14:00:52 <Samu> if ((!IsBuoyTile(t) || !IsSavegameVersionBefore(SLV_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL)) works 14:01:20 <dwfreed> which is different than what you had before 14:06:33 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal https://git.io/JvUIQ 14:07:25 <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7937/commits/3172f4dc0add8294b899d1ce3b34bd77938599c4 there it is 14:09:20 <LordAro> Samu: please stop needlessly linking everything 14:09:23 <LordAro> it's literally right there 14:22:52 <glx> I don't think it's an issue to always skip the check when it's a buoy 14:23:48 <glx> they are not multitile anyway 14:24:21 <glx> the main reason for this check was multi tile and multi modal stations 14:24:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given. https://git.io/Jf8BZ 14:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu> if ((!IsBuoyTile(t) || !IsSavegameVersionBefore(SLV_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL)) <-- i'd probably de-morgan this to !(buoy && savegame) 14:38:38 <Samu> ok 14:38:49 <Eddi|zuHause> my intuition tells me to use as few ! as possible in complicated logic 14:40:31 <dwfreed> especially since it's easy to miss 14:44:56 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal https://git.io/JvUIQ 14:45:11 <Eddi|zuHause> also, if you're in saveload code you should probably emphasise the savegame version, so you might want to put that check first 14:46:40 <Samu> oh snap, ok 14:52:26 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal https://git.io/JvUIQ 14:53:56 *** cHawk- has quit IRC 14:55:24 <Samu> I'm not sure what to do with 8047 14:55:31 <Samu> let it go 15:04:59 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 opened pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82n 15:05:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7919: Lifetime profit https://git.io/JveOR 15:05:14 <mcbanhas> hold on to your butts 15:06:27 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7937: Build on competitor canal https://git.io/JvUIQ 15:07:35 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:07:41 <mcbanhas> Ok, I think that went well by the looks of it. LMK if you guys catch anything out of the line 15:07:53 <mcbanhas> It's the first time I'm doing a PR on my own 15:09:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7890: Fix #6452: Reset only editable and visible settings from GUI https://git.io/Jexqi 15:10:35 <mcbanhas> Hmm some check appear to be failing. Any idea what's causing this? 15:11:16 <TrueBrain> <planetmaker> TrueBrain, can I hand out the e-mail of the account who uploaded the NewGRFs in question? <- no, that is never okay. You can only reach out to the email address asking if he is okay with it ;) 15:12:11 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:12:41 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7822: Fix #7670: Cache the origin tile to prevent recurring calls to the road pathfinder when a vehicle is blocked by another https://git.io/JegbJ 15:15:57 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82d 15:16:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7661: Codechange: Rework 'start_date' parameter for AIs as a game setting https://git.io/fjMsZ 15:18:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #7193: Fix #6468: Load correct version of AI as specified during the time of its save. https://git.io/fhHI1 15:18:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf8aJ 15:18:52 <TrueBrain> Welcome DorpsGek_III , the spammer! Pfft .. 15:20:47 <Samu> it was IsSaveGameVersionUntil's fault 15:24:14 <LordAro> mcbanhas: the checks should tell you what's wrong ;) 15:24:31 <mcbanhas> Yeah i can understand one of them, but not the others 15:26:13 <LordAro> mcbanhas: because you've not kept your local copy up to date, so have ended up reverting some changes 15:26:20 <LordAro> which have caused the knock on error in all the other languages 15:26:25 <LordAro> james103 has pointed it out 15:26:39 <mcbanhas> That's one I figured out, but what about the other failed checks? 15:26:51 <LordAro> which others? 15:26:51 <glx> missing string 15:27:06 <glx> all checks failed on missing INR string 15:41:23 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 15:43:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] matthijskooijman opened pull request #8145: Fix: sdl2-config would always be detected as present https://git.io/Jf8Vp 15:45:55 <blathijs> I'm looking at packaging OpenTTD 1.10 (a bit late, w00ps) and noticed that there is an SDL2 video driver. How stable and complete is that? Ready to be used by default on Debian, or better to stick for SDL1.2 for a bit more? 15:46:11 <LordAro> blathijs: perfectly stable and complete as far as we're aware 15:47:07 <blathijs> Ok, sounds good. Let's see if I can get it to compile, then :-P 15:47:50 <nielsm> just be aware that you can only use either SDL1 or SDL2 :) 15:48:28 <glx> and if both are found SDL1 is disabled IIRC 15:49:41 <nielsm> I suppose we should formally deprecate the SDL1 driver some time soon and remove it when the SDL2 driver is found to be stable 15:51:10 <LordAro> mm 15:51:32 <nielsm> maybe with cmake change so you only get SDL1 if you actively request it 15:51:39 <LordAro> though there was someone that wanted to keep it a few weeks back 15:51:43 <LordAro> was it the amiga port? 15:51:53 <nielsm> maybe something like that 15:52:09 <nielsm> can't they use allegro instead? 15:52:38 <nielsm> though allegro is barely maintained at all, nobody really uses it? 15:55:43 <mcbanhas> question, after I do commit --amend to replace a file, do I have to do commit --all afterwards? 15:55:51 <mcbanhas> Or will that just create a new commit? 15:56:05 <nielsm> commit creates a new commit unless you use --amend 15:56:31 <mcbanhas> But after I've done --amend it now tells me there are still unstaged changes 15:56:42 <nielsm> you can combine them 15:56:49 <nielsm> git commit -a --amend 16:02:20 <_dp_> lol, was curious how to check which sdl a I using, now I know that if switching to fullscreen kills X server that's sdl1 xD 16:05:25 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 16:06:03 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] matthijskooijman opened pull request #42: Fix: [Makefile] make sure installed filenames are as OpenTTD expects https://git.io/Jf8rW 16:07:50 <mcbanhas> https://dpaste.org/tru1 im getting this error now 16:08:19 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] glx22 updated pull request #141: Fix #140: non-advanced sprite layouts don't have flags https://git.io/Jflj3 16:08:23 <nielsm> you need to git push --force 16:08:28 <mcbanhas> aha 16:08:52 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82n 16:10:58 <blathijs> mcbanhas: I recommend --force-with-lease, which refuses to force if someone else pushed to the same branch since you last did, which is a bit safer. 16:11:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82n 16:12:59 <blathijs> Ok, SDL2 seems to work fine, nice :-) 16:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> <mcbanhas> But after I've done --amend it now tells me there are still unstaged changes <-- you should "git add" before "git commit" 16:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> although i tend to go "git commit -a" unless i have some fancy mixed stuff 16:25:29 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82n 16:28:28 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 16:30:17 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf8og 16:31:52 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 16:41:51 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 16:41:59 <andythenorth> oof only 26 cargos here https://www.bpf.co.uk/Data/Content/images/petrochem%20(2).jpg 16:42:21 <andythenorth> but FIRS implementation is 52 cargos already :P 16:55:37 <mcbanhas> Do you guys actually play with THAT level of complexity? 16:56:30 <Eddi|zuHause> no. andy is just working on a pipe dream 16:57:01 <andythenorth> well played Eddi|zuHause 16:57:08 <andythenorth> you should do standup :) 16:57:27 <andythenorth> mcbanhas this works pretty well to play https://firs-test-1.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/firs-v4-previews/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown 16:57:45 <andythenorth> I am pushing for 64 cargos with the chemical economy 16:57:53 <andythenorth> it's an experiment in flow 16:59:19 <mcbanhas> curious to how much research you put into the inner workings of industry in general 17:00:52 <andythenorth> I find it really interesting 17:01:04 <andythenorth> it's like a puzzle 17:01:24 <andythenorth> especially chemistry where there are different processes around the world 17:01:32 <andythenorth> and there are multiple names for the same chemical 17:02:09 <andythenorth> and output can also be feedstocks to their own production process 17:02:14 <mcbanhas> I wonder how does one get into a specific business like 17:02:32 <mcbanhas> "ok i'm gonna invest on a polymer factory!" 17:02:46 <andythenorth> interesting isn't it 17:02:55 <andythenorth> also the amount of plastic we consume 17:02:57 <andythenorth> and where it comes from 17:03:01 <andythenorth> and what the alternatives are 17:03:15 <mcbanhas> The answer is usually oil 17:05:06 <mcbanhas> Almost everything we use these days has some form of oil derivate. Alternatives would simply disrupt the highly convenient chain of derivates you illustrated so well. 17:06:02 <mcbanhas> A few days ago I learned that even the majority of modern hydrogen production is achieved through natural gas. 17:14:39 <andythenorth> and yet on a basic level, it's all just elements and compounds 17:14:46 <andythenorth> other sources are possible 17:14:51 <andythenorth> or alternative processes 17:16:13 *** mcbanhas has quit IRC 17:16:36 *** mcbanhas has joined #openttd 17:18:58 <mcbanhas> andythenorth, you have any idea how many oil people would be pissed off over that possibility? 17:19:36 <andythenorth> I think the geo-political aspects of the fossil fuel lobby are a Known Thing 17:20:02 <andythenorth> whilst they have managed to capture control of multiple democracies and pseudo-democracies 17:20:14 <andythenorth> they are becoming less investable by capital markets 17:23:12 <mcbanhas> Because of the pandemic you think? Personally I think oil will go back to booming after this is over. 17:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: crude oil from various places have subtle differences in composition, which needs careful tweaking of the refinement process, so oil refineries are very reluctant to switching 17:29:09 <andythenorth> yes, it's a long term slow moving process 17:29:38 <andythenorth> but coal power generation is already un-investable in most developed economies even without carbon tax 17:29:45 <andythenorth> and gas generation is following 17:29:54 <andythenorth> the next thing will be petrochemical feedstocks 17:30:28 <andythenorth> assuming 30 year timelines 17:30:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they've been debating over here for the past 10 years over opening a new coal power plant that is already built (and which is supposed to supercede 3 existing ones) 17:31:22 <andythenorth> plastic consumer goods have big 2 issues: source of hydrocarbons, and destination of waste plastic 17:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause> ... while at the same time debating over how quickly we can get out of coal power completely 17:31:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause are you in the brown coal region? 17:31:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 17:32:01 <andythenorth> remarkable place 17:32:21 <andythenorth> we built round one of civilisation by digging up all that coal and burning it 17:32:30 <andythenorth> we built round two with all the oil 17:33:06 <andythenorth> where I grew up, you could pretty much see (or at least hear) a coal train any hour of the day 17:33:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we're now on the case of: can we build round 3 with neither of those, or is it gonna collapse in on itself? 17:33:28 <andythenorth> yes 17:33:32 <andythenorth> coal train line went past my house, my school, my next school, and the school after that 17:33:48 <andythenorth> could see 7 deep mines (coal) from one window of my house 17:33:54 <mcbanhas> I don't think coal is un-investable at all. China, for example, is still building new coal power stations due to the west's increased demand for electronics. Coal plants are cheap and quick to build. 17:34:18 <andythenorth> yes, this is the problem with supposed achievement of low-carbon economy in countries like UK 17:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: your information might be 5 years outdated 17:34:31 <andythenorth> we have simply outsourced steel and other high pollution industries to china 17:34:54 <andythenorth> India is mandating 100% EVs by 2030(?), but is digging up all of Queensland to burn as fuel for it 17:36:07 <Eddi|zuHause> china is one of the leading drivers of dropping the price of solar panels, large swaths of the german solar industry have been bankrupted by that 17:37:53 <andythenorth> I was looking for an appropriate (non campaigning) source on fossil fuel divestment 17:37:55 <andythenorth> found one https://www.axa.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/axa-accelerates-its-commitment-to-fight-climate-change 17:38:11 <andythenorth> the actuaries will say it's a bad risk 17:38:25 <andythenorth> if you've ever met an actuary, they are pretty low emotion 17:39:35 <andythenorth> https://www.zurich.com/en/media/news-releases/2019/2019-0625-01 17:40:01 <andythenorth> if you're uninsurable with mainstream insurance markets 17:40:07 <andythenorth> you're going to fail due diligence 17:40:20 <andythenorth> which means mainstream institutional investors (pension funds) won't invest 17:40:54 <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, two years at best https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Commodities/In-ironic-twist-drive-for-clean-energy-creates-Asian-coal-boom 17:41:04 <andythenorth> this is a very big change from current *today* situation where fossil fuel investments are the major contributor of dividends to pension funds 17:41:11 <milek7> doesn't germany recently increased fossil enery share due to phasing out nuclear? 17:41:27 <mcbanhas> milek7, I heard the same. 17:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat-ish, but the complete nuclear shutdown hasn't happened yet. only the really old ones which should have been decommissioned by that point anyways 17:42:52 <andythenorth> https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts 17:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> nuclear is a very controversial subject on that matter anyway 17:43:19 <mcbanhas> andythenorth, you mean stuff like 401ks? 17:43:46 <andythenorth> 401ks are pensions from large providers like Fidelity? 17:43:53 <andythenorth> index funds, mutual funds etc? 17:43:58 <andythenorth> not self-invested? 17:44:09 *** Progman has joined #openttd 17:45:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Jf8ig 17:45:47 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 17:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> as you can see on those charts, the expansion of renewables easily trumps the loss of nuclear power. the main argument people were having was: "we could get out of coal earlier if we kept nuclear around longer" 17:46:46 <andythenorth> if we did the CCS we could keep burning the coal 17:46:49 <andythenorth> but CCS is unproven eh 17:46:53 <andythenorth> or is it? 17:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we're a few decades out from deploying CCS on an industrial scale 17:47:47 <andythenorth> it's unclear what it's for 17:47:51 <andythenorth> preserving oil industry wealth? 17:47:57 <andythenorth> declining coal mining jobs? 17:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and that doesn't solve the "we're still running out of oil" problem 17:48:23 <andythenorth> don't we have lots of it, just not economically accessible? 17:48:40 <andythenorth> if only we could somehow unfreeze all the methane hydrate from the bottom of the ocean :P 17:48:46 <andythenorth> so much hydrocarbon resource 17:49:00 <andythenorth> maybe by warming the oceans 4 degrees 17:49:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so as far as i can tell, germany's plan for now is: "hope there isn't a peak-renewables", "use natural gas as backup", "get out of the other stuff in a timely manner, without being too hasty" 17:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> where some powers want the latter to be quicker 17:50:38 <andythenorth> we have this small issue with things like Haber Bosch fertiliser 17:50:52 <andythenorth> which is 100% dependent on gas / naphtha currently 17:51:04 <andythenorth> and somewhat needed to...feed us 17:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a semi-strong argument at the second part, where it's "but you're making us too dependent on russia for gas deliveries" 17:52:43 <milek7> what does exactly installed solar capacity mean? it depends on season, doesn't it? 17:52:52 <milek7> average? 17:53:00 <Eddi|zuHause> which recently escalated as orange-hair-dude intervened on an already almost-finished gas pipeline 17:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: installed capacity is just the covered area multiplied with an assumed efficiency value 17:54:32 <andythenorth> there will be a retrospective factual measure for any period 17:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there's actually 2 efficiency values: a) in case of direct solar input, how much power are you getting out, and b) how large of a fraction of time is actually full solar input 17:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the "installed capacity" is only concerned with a) 17:56:39 <andythenorth> anyway TL;DR 17:56:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so a) is mostly about what angle the sun is shining at it (averaged out over days/seasons), and b) is about how cloudy it is 17:56:55 <andythenorth> * change electricity supplier to 100% renewable, preferably gas supplier also 17:57:05 <andythenorth> * change pension fund if you have one, to divestment from fossil fuel 17:57:12 * andythenorth has done 1, not 2 17:57:24 <andythenorth> my pension provider was very proud that they have divested from tobacco recently 17:57:28 <andythenorth> and are therefore ethical 17:57:40 <andythenorth> so many wrongs 17:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> they should have done that 30 years ago... 17:58:29 <andythenorth> I think they probably did 17:58:30 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and 10 years ago they should have switched to ethical mining 17:58:36 <andythenorth> but they are still talking about it now 17:58:39 <andythenorth> as ethical behaviour 17:58:50 <andythenorth> suggests a gap of other examples :P 17:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and "ethical mining" not as in "we don't buy anything from Congo", but as in "we choose carefully who in Congo we buy from" 18:00:25 <andythenorth> :) 18:01:10 <_dp_> "we pay a share to some scammers in congo with good pr" :p 18:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i like this figure: "Share of renewable power generation: Norway: 106.8%" :p 18:03:24 <milek7> change gas supplier to what? renewable gas? such thing exists? 18:03:34 <andythenorth> yes 18:03:37 <andythenorth> I was surprised 18:03:43 <andythenorth> it's currently very minority 18:03:55 <andythenorth> biogas from crops or compost recycling 18:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: first thought would be bio-gas from human waste decomposition 18:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> like, side product from water treatment 18:04:45 <andythenorth> that currently tends to be used directly on site for power generation 18:04:50 <andythenorth> but could be fed to the gas grid 18:05:01 <andythenorth> same from pig / cow farms 18:05:15 <andythenorth> manure digestion biogas 18:05:31 <milek7> it still generates co2 from combustion, so what is adventage of this? 18:05:39 <mcbanhas> If only solving the climate crisis was all about telling individual to change pension funds and power providers... 18:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> milek7: it's stuff that would have been released anyway 18:07:16 <andythenorth> the exact timeline is a question 18:07:35 <andythenorth> how long does methane from cow manure take to release vs. capturing it and burning it 18:07:40 <andythenorth> what's the rate of emission? 18:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: no, it's not about telling every individual to change habits, it's about putting levers on the right places 18:08:33 <mcbanhas> That sounds like fancy rewording 18:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: you're not diverting a river by going out and telling each water atom to change direction 18:09:18 <mcbanhas> That's sort of what I'm saying, yeah 18:09:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you're doing that by either making a few subtle changes so it gets harder to go one direction and easier to go in another direction 18:09:44 <andythenorth> not everyone has to change pension fund or power provider 18:09:46 <andythenorth> only 'enough' 18:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> psychology of herd movement is very tricky subject 18:10:28 <andythenorth> the UK has more capital to spend on renewable installation than our spatial planning regime will allow to be built 18:11:16 <mcbanhas> andythenorth, I still think that's wishful thinking. I don't believe you can simply fix problems that are caused by the way the economy itself is structured, which affects the way communities are organized, and the amounts of consumption. These are also to a large extent political problems that can only be fixed through serious political intervention. 18:11:43 <andythenorth> either / or thinking is quite a common fallacy 18:12:11 <andythenorth> it's quite a common self-inflicted brake on groups trying to be progressive 18:12:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the main problem germany has currently with renewable energy production is that the majority production sites are not where the majority of power consumtion is, and they've been delaying the construction of essential power distribuition lines 18:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: that is not a new problem, it has at any time in history been discussed whether you can change enough by reform, or if you need an actual revolution 18:13:43 <andythenorth> there is probably an aphorism somewhere 18:13:51 <mcbanhas> the problem is that right now we are running out of time now. 18:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> where often the revolution wasn't actually solving anything, but ended up right back where it started 18:15:27 <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, that's cynicism at best and denying human and social advancements from political action at worst 18:16:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd dispute both of those claims, but it would be too elaborate for a simple irc discussion 18:18:25 *** GroovyNoodle has joined #openttd 18:21:22 <andythenorth> revolution has a very poor track record afaict 18:21:30 <andythenorth> it tends to replace one elite with another 18:21:36 <andythenorth> and people die along the way 18:21:47 <andythenorth> not all revolutions are bloody 18:22:36 <andythenorth> but the existence of "The Bloodless Revolution" as a historical event suggests the common outcome 18:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> revolution has two main problems: 1) it creates reactionary forces that want "the old way" back (that is usually romanticised and never actually existed), and 2) it inherits all the problems of "the old way", and gets blamed for not solving them quickly enough 18:23:27 <andythenorth> also I think we've had revolutions 18:23:36 <andythenorth> Trump, Brexit, 5 Star etc 18:23:45 <andythenorth> alleged revolutions against ruling elites 18:24:05 <andythenorth> seizing of power by the people etc 18:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i 18:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd classify the trump/brexit camp actually in the "reactionary" part 18:24:42 <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, agreed 18:24:53 <mcbanhas> Even stuff like 5 star, etc 18:25:06 <Eddi|zuHause> because the revolution was already on the way before they got into power 18:25:56 <andythenorth> I'd agree 18:26:11 <andythenorth> alleged revolutions 18:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 star is a bit trickier, because i would rather argue that they're of the 2nd camp. they were seeing the anti-berlusconi movement, and didn't get results quickly enough 18:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> same way as the ukrainian dude, where it was like "we've seen multiple back and forth revolutions" 18:27:19 <andythenorth> progress comes from capitalism 18:27:25 <andythenorth> almost entirely 18:27:30 <andythenorth> which is unfortunate 18:28:09 <mcbanhas> 5 star/brexit is more about "we want some of the nice things we used to have" over actually enacting real change 18:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> capitalism has undoubtedly created previously unimaginable momentum 18:29:07 <andythenorth> it's unfortunate because it concentrates unbelievable wealth and power in the hands of very few 18:29:09 <Eddi|zuHause> but the question we are facing right now is: are we actually in control of that momentum? 18:29:11 <mcbanhas> capitalism was great at mobilizing productive forces up until the 2nd half of the 20th century. 18:29:32 <andythenorth> without any kind of rationale, like divine birthright 18:29:41 <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, if one agrees with Nick Land, not really :p 18:29:56 <mcbanhas> Capitalism has sort of become a beast of its own. 18:30:00 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: i don't think i've heard that name before 18:30:08 <andythenorth> bring back Kings! 18:30:15 <andythenorth> divine rulers! 18:30:18 <andythenorth> Popes! 18:30:23 <andythenorth> Czars! 18:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i wouldn't rule out the possibility of that happening 18:31:54 <mcbanhas> It's already what's implied in the return of strongmen at the head of western economies 18:32:08 <andythenorth> many people would like it 18:32:16 <andythenorth> they would vote for that! 18:32:19 <mcbanhas> And that's the problem with populism 18:32:24 <andythenorth> elected dictators! 18:32:29 <andythenorth> happy days! 18:32:32 <andythenorth> colour TV for all! 18:32:43 <mcbanhas> People don't really like taking responsibility at the end of the day 18:33:09 <mcbanhas> It's sort of what is implied in representative democracies, division of labor, etc 18:34:12 <Eddi|zuHause> anything more advanced than a stone age society needs specialisation of labour, and that includes people who specialize in leadership 18:34:17 <mcbanhas> On one hand you shouldn't be forced to have an opinion on every foreign policy or economic matter. The system should handle that for you, so you can have time to enjoy your life. 18:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the question at that point always is: how do you filter out people that are unfit for their specialisation 18:35:47 <mcbanhas> But on the other representative democracy assumes people and communities will make deliberate rational choices, which is a very outdated belief from classic liberalism 18:36:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause oh that's easy, you just promote them 18:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i forgot the name for that 18:37:01 <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, the same question can put on a different, more recent example: how does one prevent conspiracy theories from running amok during pandemic times? 18:37:40 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: i think it's too early to tell :) 18:38:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause Peter Principle 18:38:22 <andythenorth> promotion to limit of competence 18:38:37 <andythenorth> so you end up stuck in a position you are not competent to fill 18:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: i've seen someone propose that the problem was created by a history of to discredit previous conspiracy theories by injecting more absurd ideas into them. which is a concept that is now clashing by all those marginalised people now cuming together to form one giant wave 18:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, that's what i was thinking 18:40:43 <andythenorth> one cannot prevent conspiracy theories running amok 18:40:48 <andythenorth> they are a memetic virus 18:40:59 <andythenorth> highly adapted to give a high R0 18:41:14 <andythenorth> one can counter them 18:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that you can't do something hasn't ever prevented people from trying 18:41:26 <andythenorth> we counter viruses 18:41:29 <andythenorth> we have remedies 18:41:55 <andythenorth> but unless we can vaccinate the human brain, we can't prevent memetic virus transmission 18:42:45 <FLHerne> We could just kill everyone 18:42:50 <andythenorth> Yes! 18:42:50 <FLHerne> That would work 18:42:56 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, ^ 18:42:56 <andythenorth> form a political party for that 18:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the best explanation i heard so far was: "conspiracy theories are running amok because all the cancelled flights mean the government couldn't spray enough chemtrails" 18:43:02 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenGFX] matthijskooijman opened issue #43: Favors .git version even in release tarball https://git.io/Jf8Xh 18:43:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause that's wonderful 18:43:17 <andythenorth> I might have to share that 18:44:19 <mcbanhas> Anyway, who wants to have a look at some strings? 18:48:44 <milek7> election silliness continues there 18:49:07 <milek7> first insisting on 10 may, next haphazardly organized postal voting, then cancelled at last moment by party president, now again express pushing of law through parliament.. 18:51:39 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 18:57:28 *** Candlejack has joined #openttd 19:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> very little foreign news currently penetrates the wall-of-corona articles 19:24:12 <mcbanhas> https://dpaste.org/Yj9V 19:24:20 <mcbanhas> folks can you help me improve these? 19:24:31 <glx> oh we had floodings this week end, changed from covid oriented news 19:24:40 *** Candlejack has quit IRC 19:25:18 <mcbanhas> I only streamlined the phrasing little a bit. They could use a heavier re-wrte 19:25:56 *** GroovyNoodle has quit IRC 19:33:55 <nielsm> "Stays green as long as there is one or more green exit signals from the following section of track." 19:34:13 <nielsm> maybe "from the following signal block." instead 19:35:35 <nielsm> "Behaves in the same way as a block signal but" <- I think "behaves the same way" (without "in") is okay here? not sure 19:36:39 <nielsm> "This allows you to build large ramifications of pre-signals" <- I don't think the word "ramifications" is good here, it's certainly not the meaning I usually think of. maybe "cascades"? 19:36:46 *** supermop_Home_ has quit IRC 19:39:11 <nielsm> for path signals I'd really want to change the function description entirely: "Allows trains to pass if they can reserve a path to a safe stopping point. Reserved paths can not cross." 19:39:17 <mcbanhas> cascades sounds a bit weird. "Large branches" or maybe even "large networks"? 19:40:03 <nielsm> use the full description for both "normal" and one-way path signals, but add one of "Can be passed from the back" or "Can not be passed from the back" 19:42:41 <nielsm> "This parameter sets the number of tiles inbetween signals" <- "Sets the number of tiles frome one signal to the next" (starting with "this parameter" is unnecessary) 19:54:25 <FLHerne> The number of tiles when? 19:55:03 <FLHerne> "Sets the number of tiles between signals when dragging to build more than one" 19:55:07 <FLHerne> Or something 19:55:31 <FLHerne> That wording is bad 19:56:30 <FLHerne> "Sets the number of tiles between signals built by dragging" 19:56:31 <FLHerne> No 19:57:24 <FLHerne> "Sets the number of tiles between signals when building more than one" 19:57:39 <FLHerne> ...more than one at a time? 20:02:17 <nielsm> FLHerne I intentionally left out the second half of the sentence because that was fine 20:02:32 <FLHerne> nielsm: Oh, ok 20:03:48 <mcbanhas> Sets the number of tiles between signals when using auto-placement? 20:04:33 <mcbanhas> I dunno, I feel we must first decide what exactly to call the drag-to-autobuild function 20:05:08 <mcbanhas> Like I called it signal auto-placement on the other two lines below, but I don't think it's good enough 20:05:35 <mcbanhas> Maybe actually calling it "Drag-to-build" wouldn't be a bad idea 20:14:48 <TrueBrain> frosch123 : CC'd you as we should improve that error flow I guess :D 20:20:04 <nielsm> mcbanhas the problem with writing "between signals" is that it's not signals 20:20:17 <nielsm> when you set it to 1 you build signals every tile, with 2 it builds every other tile, and so on 20:20:38 <nielsm> uh the problem is that it's not *distance* 20:20:45 <mcbanhas> that's a good point 20:20:52 <nielsm> or... damn I think I should maybe sleep 20:21:10 <mcbanhas> then we can use the word interval 20:21:29 <nielsm> tile-frequency! 20:21:37 <nielsm> (that's a terrible term) 20:21:56 <nielsm> Tile-frequency of drag-construcuted signals 20:22:08 <nielsm> terse and obtuse <3 20:23:46 <nielsm> anyway, gn 20:24:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl commented on pull request #7896: Feature: Push-buttons on storybook pages https://git.io/Jf8SL 20:31:10 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, any more ideas? 20:31:40 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I'm not looking right now, trying to improve nml tests 20:31:47 *** nielsm has quit IRC 20:56:05 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 20:57:58 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 20:58:41 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 21:03:34 <andythenorth> I wanted a coal tar distillery 21:03:43 <andythenorth> as a source of paracetamol 21:04:03 <andythenorth> but I suspect I have a cargo quantity impedance mismatch 21:07:30 <milek7> cities needing paracetamol to grow? 21:10:14 <andythenorth> yes 21:10:25 <andythenorth> we probably don't ship trainloads of it though 21:12:40 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 21:12:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 21:13:21 <andythenorth> 150k tons per year 21:13:27 <andythenorth> hmm 21:19:33 *** tokai has quit IRC 21:31:49 *** Samu has quit IRC 21:36:38 *** matt21347 has quit IRC 21:52:00 *** Speeder has joined #openttd 21:52:18 <Speeder> hello 21:52:23 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] somini commented on pull request #157: Include final URL https://git.io/Jf8Q5 21:52:42 <Speeder> so, I remembered that in 2014 I was messing with heightmaps, and stopped due to height limit being low 21:52:50 <Speeder> 2015 seemly got the height limit increased 21:53:01 <Speeder> so I decided to muck around with heightmap again, maybe release the one I was working on back then 21:53:49 <Speeder> my question is: if I got it right, each pixel of a heightmap is a CORNER, not a tile? 21:57:17 <Yexo> Yes. The four corners of a tile can have different heights, so there is no such ting as "single height of a tile" 21:57:51 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:00:18 <Speeder> so my 4096x4096 file for example I should load it on a 1024x1024 map? 22:02:18 <Yexo> No, corners of neighbouring tiles are the same, so while a single tile has 4 corners, in total there are as many corners as tiles on the map (modulo some extra at one border) 22:03:43 <Yexo> To put it differently: internally OpenTTD stores the height of the northern corner as "tile height". The height of the other corners can be gotten from neighbor tiles 22:06:34 <Speeder> ah I see 22:06:55 <Speeder> also anyone made a patch or something that lets you define on the heightmap file or another kind of file, where rivers are? 22:17:24 <Yexo> No idea, sorry 22:18:49 <milek7> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=70846 22:24:23 <Speeder> I found that but no idea how to get the patch :( 22:31:39 <mcbanhas> guys where can I find the bitmap for the tiny font? It doesn't seem to be in OpenGFX/sprites/png/gui/ 22:32:45 <Yexo> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/sprites/png/gui/fonts.png 22:36:06 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:45:11 <mcbanhas> Yexo, that's the newspaper font 22:45:45 *** Yoshi has quit IRC 22:46:11 <Yexo> mcbanhas: there are actually 3 fonts in that file: regular, small and newspaper 22:46:22 <mcbanhas> oooh 22:46:25 <Yexo> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenGFX/blob/master/sprites/base/base-0000-font.pnml contains the offsets 22:50:06 <mcbanhas> I found a compatible charset we can use to expand font to japanese 22:50:24 <mcbanhas> *this font 22:50:43 <mcbanhas> and corresponding charsets for the larger fonts too 23:01:55 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 23:12:22 <glx> mcbanhas: easier to set a font in cfg :) 23:12:45 <mcbanhas> Yeah but it's not as nice 23:13:25 <mcbanhas> I mean this pixel font is also available in ttf, so it could be used both ways 23:13:35 <glx> and real font is resizable 23:15:01 <mcbanhas> btw, why isnt anti aliasing enabled for fonts by default? 23:31:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that's the biggest worry we should have concerning fonts 23:31:42 <mcbanhas> what is the biggest wory concerning fonts then? 23:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> probably would be a better idea to ditch the sprite font entirely, and include a full TTF font suitible for all supportedlanguages 23:32:49 <mcbanhas> There is no such thing right now 23:33:29 <mcbanhas> Fonts that support extended latin + greek + cyrillic + hebrew + asian languages are rare 23:33:36 <mcbanhas> and usually not suited for video games 23:35:04 <mcbanhas> Much less one that resembles the classic ttd font 23:35:47 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 23:36:28 <mcbanhas> Like, we can do that already for the newspaper font, because it's based on Liberation Serif 23:36:58 <mcbanhas> Which does have unicode support for the most part 23:37:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the bigges concern with fonts, however, would be an ingame gui to set them up 23:37:40 <mcbanhas> I don't think we need a gui for that 23:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we certainly do 23:38:53 <mcbanhas> I think first and foremost we need good fonts with enough character coverage that means it doesn't change to a system font every other language 23:39:38 <mcbanhas> I do understand what you're saying though, given how the UI scales on hi res 23:40:55 <mcbanhas> But before we even consider that, we need fonts that do the job 23:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause> as you said, it's unrealistic that we find a font that fits all those criteria, which makes it even more important to make the setting more accessible to the players 23:43:33 <mcbanhas> Well that's why first and foremost I wanted to expand the pixel font into something workable 23:44:17 <mcbanhas> Because pixel fonts can still be turned into .ttfs 23:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's pretty much impossible to extend the pixel font for things like arabic, which rely on all sorts of character connections and transformations 23:44:49 <mcbanhas> Lol, says who 23:45:39 <mcbanhas> https://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/1406787/arabic-pixel-1 23:46:02 <mcbanhas> and yes, it includes ligatures 23:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but we can't have ligatures, because we can have only one sprite per character 23:47:33 <mcbanhas> what most arabic fonts do is that they have characters for every possible ligature 23:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but then you have to implement a system that translates character combinations to ligature-characters 23:48:47 <mcbanhas> That is correct, yes 23:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody is going to do that 23:49:17 <glx> on windows and macos we rely on the OS to do that for us 23:49:31 <mcbanhas> what about linux? 23:49:31 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly 23:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> on linux we use a library 23:50:01 <glx> there's ICU, with all its issues 23:51:44 <glx> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6922