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Log for #openttd on 5th July 2021:
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05:48:45  <andythenorth> is FIRS expected to work with 64x64 and just one town?
05:48:53  <andythenorth> or any map size and just one town?
05:52:18  <Rubidium> I think the more interesting question is, how is it supposed to work when creating a scenario? Then you (temporarily) got no towns
05:56:10  <Rubidium> I first thought you could do a check when loading the NewGRF, but that idea quickly made no sense as the NewGRFs will be loaded before any of the towns in a new game are made. So that wouldn't be a nice solution, which effectively makes it that you ought to support it. On the other hand, if you create an industry that requires watery/snowy/desert/rainforest tiles to be built upon and those do not exist
05:56:16  <Rubidium> the player might be screwed in a similar manner as when your set cannot place some industries
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06:08:10  <andythenorth> it's a bit lolz currently
06:09:04  <andythenorth> industries doing any town checks seems unwise
06:09:07  <andythenorth> currently
06:09:44  <andythenorth> unrelated: seems map gen tries to place industries in order of ID
06:10:02  <andythenorth> so if a lower ID industry checks for presence on map of a higher ID, it won't be built
06:10:05  <andythenorth> at least on small maps
06:21:49  <andythenorth> maybe I can manipulate the probability until the dependencies exist
06:27:18  <andythenorth> nope
06:27:28  <andythenorth> ok this means I've just shipped a broken FIRS :D
06:27:30  <andythenorth> oh dear :)
07:07:56  <peter1138> https://blog.davetcode.co.uk/post/21st-century-emulator/
07:09:36  <TrueBrain> someone went a bit overboard :P
07:09:40  <TrueBrain> looks like fun :
07:09:41  <TrueBrain> D
07:09:42  <andythenorth> it's not April 1?
07:10:10  <andythenorth> "Naturally I ran into a number of new issues with this approach. "
07:18:17  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain reopened issue #9386: Building on MacOS fails with "bus error: 10" https://git.io/Jngox
07:18:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain commented on issue #9386: Building on MacOS fails with "bus error: 10" https://git.io/Jngox
07:19:44  <TrueBrain> no clue why it is that commit, and not one up
07:19:51  <TrueBrain> owh well, time to do other stuff first
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09:07:21  <peter1138> Hmm, SQL server supports encrypted data fields. Seems pointless to have the server able to decrypt...
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13:01:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on pull request #9411: Replace master-server (UDP-based) with Game Coordinator (TCP-based) https://git.io/JcKik
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14:07:27  <peter1138> https://twitter.com/alexjc/status/1411966249437995010
14:07:28  <peter1138> ...
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14:15:14  <belu> Hi,
14:15:44  <belu> anyone knows how to disable shadowing under the trains on the railroad in the latest version ?
14:16:07  <LordAro> "show path reservations" setting
14:16:07  <peter1138> That'll be part of the graphics you are using.
14:17:05  <belu> ...so the train is going on the track, and as it passes tile by tile is like footprinting each and every tile on it's way
14:17:24  <belu> like being a darker shadow under the train
14:17:31  <peter1138> Oh, path reservations, lol
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14:17:41  <peter1138> Yeah, that... isn't new.
14:17:45  <belu> ok thank you, i''ll try now
14:18:06  <belu> new for me as I was playing in the old 0.4.7 till now :))
14:18:23  <LordAro> peter1138: the default did change in the latest release though
14:18:37  <LordAro> belu: that is impressively old
14:18:48  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on issue #9386: Building on MacOS fails with "bus error: 10" https://git.io/Jngox
14:19:00  <belu> yes i know, i had to update as it couldn't be played online ...
14:19:17  <peter1138> LordAro, to on? Strange, that's ... undesirable.
14:19:52  <glx> it's useful for beginners
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14:27:24  <belu> "show path reservations" setting worked, many thanks,
14:27:49  <belu> and is there an option to retain older trains, instead of the list getting 'rid" of the old ones ?
14:28:03  <glx> yes, "never expire"
14:28:09  <belu> and having only the newest ones ?
14:28:16  <belu> thank you !
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14:41:05  <FLHerne> 0.4.7, released 26th March 2006
14:41:07  <FLHerne> wow
14:58:31  <glx> pff trying things requiring release build is so slow
14:59:15  <Samu> AIDepotList(AITile.TRANSPORT_WATER), which tile? north, south or both?
14:59:39  <Samu> must test
15:02:12  <Samu> im going to assume north
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15:02:43  <glx> Isn't it documented ?
15:04:15  <Samu> https://docs.openttd.org/ai-api/classAIDepotList.html
15:08:17  <glx> tile is the one used when building it
15:11:32  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis commented on pull request #9405: Reduce allocations in string handling https://git.io/Jc6sN
15:11:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] fsimonis closed pull request #9405: Reduce allocations in string handling https://git.io/Jcmd2
15:25:20  <glx> so yes north tile Samu (as "The depot will be built towards the south from 'tile', not necessarily towards 'front'.")
15:25:48  <Samu> nice, that makes things simpler
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15:28:50  <glx> funny, when building a water depot you can use any tile for 'front', as long as it's on one of 'tile' axis
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15:48:18  <Rubidium> glx / TrueBrain: might https://github.com/rubidium42/OpenTTD/tree/split_off_settings_table help with the bus 10 error? Or rather, can one of you test whether it helps? I haven't been able to reproduce the issue yet, probably due to a too old compiler or something stupid like not passing the right settings
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16:53:10  <glx> Rubidium: just started a build, will take some time for it to complete :)
17:01:32  <glx> now in the longest part, linking
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17:16:51  <andythenorth> so at map gen are industries just built in ID order, lowest first? https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/28e90769f74e55ea7c8f75146d5b33e0aa777da8/src/industry_cmd.cpp#L2326
17:17:25  <glx> there's a first round of one of each type in type order
17:17:33  <glx> then other are placed randomly
17:17:39  <nielsm> it tries to build one of each first, then does random until the target is hit
17:18:27  <andythenorth> excellent :) that means I can read src even if I can't write it :)
17:18:33  <andythenorth> and it matches observed behaviour
17:18:54  <andythenorth> it does mean I need to manage IDs
17:19:06  <andythenorth> so that industries which depend on another industry have higher relative ID
17:19:24  <andythenorth> and I can't automate that (because IDs need to be stable)
17:19:30  <andythenorth> so I'll do it manually
17:20:07  <andythenorth> I can't co-locate different industries by town or region, so I have to check distance to type a from type b
17:22:21  <glx> Rubidium: gcc is happy with your proposal
17:36:18  <Rubidium> glx: nice. Then I'll clean it up and make a PR out of it
17:43:01  * andythenorth wonders if newgrf should gain some general purpose map scripting :P
17:43:26  <andythenorth> industry placement would be a use case
17:43:33  <andythenorth> and industry closure
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18:10:15  <nielsm> andythenorth: what about that suggestion I had a while back where industrytypes have a callback for "min/max desired number in this town" callback?
18:24:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rubidium42 opened pull request #9414: Split off settings.cpp into several separate files https://git.io/Jc6h3
18:25:27  <Rubidium> only "problem" with that PR is that it now conflicts with glx's PR
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18:30:11  <andythenorth> nielsm _could_ work
18:30:26  <Samu> oh no, my script took too long to save
18:30:28  <andythenorth> towns are problematic
18:30:36  <andythenorth> because the player can create a map with only 1 town
18:30:42  <andythenorth> and newgrf can't know the number of towns
18:30:54  <andythenorth> so creating 'types' of town is dangerous
18:31:02  <peter1138> Can't or doesn't?
18:31:16  <andythenorth> has been said twice that it shouldn't
18:31:31  <andythenorth> doesn't is the factual truth
18:31:38  <andythenorth> the rest is just open source 10 people 10 opinions
18:34:22  <andythenorth> peter1138 patchpack? :)
18:37:25  <peter1138> The IHaveAPatchForThatPack
18:40:15  <nielsm> also revisiting the regions idea, they could perhaps be defined by newgrf: a feature that only one grf is allowed to implement (loading a second grf that tries to implement it could then fail loading that grf). the feature only has callbacks, one callback is after mapgen has finished placing all towns, it receives the number of towns created/in existence, and returns the number of regions to
18:40:15  <nielsm> create.
18:41:26  <nielsm> the game then divides the map geographically into that number of regions by some kind of grid or whatever, and inside each region it picks one (roughly centered) town that becomes the capital of the region.
18:42:13  <andythenorth> yes
18:42:17  <nielsm> other towns might belong to a region either by the geographical subdivision, or by which capital is closest, the grf callback might be able to choose that or maybe it's just hardcoded
18:42:24  <andythenorth> regions could just be partitioning n adjoining towns
18:42:26  <andythenorth> or something
18:42:45  <andythenorth> and ideally a regional capital would be parent scope of town or similar
18:42:56  <andythenorth> then parent vars could be accessed
18:43:06  <andythenorth> or new explicit vars alternatively
18:43:15  <nielsm> if the subdivision makes a subdivision with zero towns in it, then it might try making a different pattern or something, or maybe sub-subdivide the other subdivisions with a large number of towns to make sure the requested number of capitals are selected
18:44:02  <nielsm> after the capitals are chosen and towns have a regional designated, the grf gets to visit every town (in some order) to initialise their town registers
18:44:14  <andythenorth> there is probably some case for multiple definitions of regions (with IDs for each set), but might be best avoided
18:44:33  <nielsm> and if new towns are created during gameplay, that init town cb is also run, of course
18:44:51  <andythenorth> unrelated, but now that we have town registers an industry removed cb might be useful
18:44:58  <andythenorth> like javascript on unload
18:45:13  <nielsm> probably yes
18:45:32  <andythenorth> probably the easiest case to envisage for regions is power stations
18:45:40  <nielsm> also if you want to have "min/max desired count in this town (or region?)" cb for industrytypes
18:45:42  <andythenorth> it would be easy to write electricity production to a register
18:45:52  <andythenorth> but it's silly to have a power station in every town
18:46:08  <nielsm> and the game has to close down industries to get below the max desired, it needs to ask the defining grf which industry to close
18:47:15  <nielsm> also I hope you're taking notes here because I'm not, I'm just braindumping an idea that popped up
18:47:27  <andythenorth> we have webster :)
18:48:46  <andythenorth> so the map gen cb 'towns finished' cb gets a result for number of region partitions to create?
18:48:54  <andythenorth> and we might know the number of towns at that point?
18:49:23  <andythenorth> we can found towns in game also?
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18:50:12  <nielsm> yeah I guess it should know the map dimensions, and number of towns created
18:50:39  <nielsm> the "init individual town" cb might also want to be able to toggle the "is city" flag
18:50:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/Jcif9
18:50:53  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
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19:02:16  <andythenorth> that would be helpful
19:02:39  <andythenorth> if e.g. a town is 'mostly farms'
19:02:51  <andythenorth> it shouldn't be flagged as a city for growth
19:06:24  <glx> <@Rubidium> only "problem" with that PR is that it now conflicts with glx's PR <-- oh I'm used to fix conflicts in this PR :)
19:08:29  <glx> hmm regression seems to fail for VS2017, let's try locally
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19:09:10  <nielsm> and, I guess there should be some kind of global variable indicating the number of regions present, and the grfid of who defined the regions
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19:11:41  <Rubidium> glx: yeah, the regression failure kinda baffles me. I got no idea why it would fail
19:17:07  <glx> hmm I guess no output and no crash, maybe failed to open the savegame
19:17:56  <glx> I really should improve CI to upload the output on failure :)
19:18:20  <glx> because comparison is done after all the filtering
19:19:33  <glx> ok regression failed locally too (for VS2017)
19:19:39  <glx> I can check the output
19:20:48  <glx> ok both regression test give an empty file
19:21:15  <andythenorth> nielsm probably
19:21:39  <andythenorth> also is there a map capital? :P
19:23:01  <nielsm> multiple administrative levels gets annoying
19:25:54  <andythenorth> I can't see a gameplay reason for it
19:26:03  <andythenorth> but it would give the grf map-wide storage :P
19:26:03  <glx> seems to be a crash Rubidium
19:26:17  <andythenorth> so I am mostly interested in the side-channel exploit it offers
19:27:01  <glx> I'll do more digging later, I have an overcooked2 party waiting :)
19:27:27  <glx> oh it's a div/0
19:40:30  <Samu> how do i solve "This script took too long to Save"
19:40:50  <nielsm> making saving faster, or maybe play on smaller maps
19:41:18  <Samu> strange that I never got it before
19:41:26  <Samu> now that i added ships, i get it
19:42:34  <Samu> *cough* can I suggest increase MAX_SL_OPS *cough*
19:43:16  <Samu> but ok, i guess my townManager code is the problem
19:43:54  <Samu> this code here was actually from LuDiAI, the original
19:44:46  <Rubidium> glx: might that be due to some ordering of initialization the SettingTable variables are not initialized correctly (i.e. too early)? If so, then that might mean existing main is broken as well for the private settings tables
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19:51:19  <nielsm> Samu: the best choice for save-load for AI and GS to be fast would be to structure the data used by the script in such a way that you don't *need* to run any expensive data collection during save but can just dump the existing data right in, and similar for loading you want to be able to basically consume the data as they were saved
19:52:22  <andythenorth> nielsm if we did regions for christmas, we could have north pole and santa :P
19:53:16  <nielsm> stop reminding me of the winter holidays themed industry set I never got very far with
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20:00:40  <nielsm> this thing: https://0x0.st/s5CK.txt
20:02:37  <Samu> https://i.imgur.com/13tODxK.png - the last autosave where it managed to save, and what is loaded when loaded back
20:14:08  <Samu> https://github.com/SamuXarick/LuDiAI-AfterFix/blob/master/TownManager.nut
20:14:10  <Samu> halp
20:15:24  <Samu> saveTownManager iterating over the m_nearCityPairArray takes about 85% of the save time
20:16:39  <andythenorth> santa claus is coming to town
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20:31:26  <Samu> i really need to investigate what's in that huge array
20:31:36  <Samu> seems fishy that it's so large, but...
20:32:03  <Samu> 512x512, tons of towns
20:32:27  <Samu> it's an array of town pairs
20:32:56  <Samu> each pair is a route to try building
20:37:31  <Samu> but it's strange, i tested the AI in 4096x4096 maps before, reaching 5k road vehicles
20:37:39  <Samu> 12k towns
20:37:56  <Samu> maybe i didn't have autosave enabled to test
20:41:07  <Samu> when i did those 100 years tests, i had autosave
20:41:28  <Samu> the ai didn't crash with a too long to save... this is very odd
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21:51:17  <peter1138> M1 Macbook?
22:04:50  <andythenorth> well
22:05:19  <andythenorth> i9 Macbook is definitely fail
22:05:27  * andythenorth must to sleep
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22:05:48  <glx> i9 in anything not well ventilated
22:19:05  <peter1138> Problem with a Macbook is it comes with Mac OS.
22:24:44  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/team] SlipperyDuck777 opened issue #232: [en_AU] Translator access request https://git.io/JciVM
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23:07:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8285: Rewrite `OverflowSafeInt` to avoid undefined behaviour https://git.io/Jci6N
23:28:09  <glx> Rubidium: it fails when loading intro game, and indeed the 3 SettingTable are not yet initialised when GetSettingFromName() is called

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