Log for #openttd on 3rd August 2006:
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00:01:23  <RichK67> gn
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00:02:19  <Sacro> OMG, they killed RichK
00:02:21  <luckzeh> are vehics supposed to be capable of overtaking others that broke down?
00:02:24  <luckzeh> omg he suicided :/
00:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> road vehicles can overtake on straight roads
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00:04:19  <luckzeh> yes, but they can't do that on roads uphill for an example, or so it seems in my game.
00:04:34  <luckzeh> kinda nasty when the first car of about fifteen breaks down at the end of a tunnel :p
00:04:47  <luckzeh> is there a table when which airport is available?
00:04:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, "straight" seems to be a little strict
00:05:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i would look in table/*.h
00:06:35  <luckzeh> would adding availability years to the airport gui be information overload?
00:07:49  <Eddi|zuHause> probably yes...
00:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> such "advanced" information is rather suited for the wiki
00:08:14  <luckzeh> mhm-.
00:08:42  <luckzeh> in 2014, for the 20th anniversary, the wiki will be accessible ingame ;)
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00:13:12  <Eddi|zuHause> feel free to implement a wiki interface ;)
00:14:47  <luckzeh> why do I want to build an airplane with 48% max reliability? :x
00:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause> because you don't bother and switch breakdowns off? ;)
00:15:55  <Eddi|zuHause> or: to increase its max. reliability
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00:16:21  <luckzeh> it will get more happy if I feed it cookies?
00:18:37  <Eddi|zuHause> definitely ;)
00:18:46  <luckzeh> btw, it's kinda sad that the realistic accel patch for cars turns them into snails
00:18:52  <luckzeh> not that they were unprofitable snails.
00:19:34  <luckzeh> I got a service subsidy, somehow. apparently people decided to promote a route I have already been doing for twenty years.
00:21:31  <luckzeh> I also dont know why I even bother to build non-electric tracks
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00:24:38  <luckzeh> dutch mtv at reasonably late times is strange.
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00:27:09  <luckzeh> first they have a lot of recent mainstream-compatible metal/hard rock videos in a row, with very few commercial breaks, and it's actually pretty much like they're trying to be a music channel.
00:28:37  <luckzeh> and now, a show called top25 offers me a mix of moderatly old bad rap and somewhat good pop.
00:29:10  <luckzeh> but now everything is full of screenspam again. and I'll surely get to endure ten ringtone commercials in a row in three minutes.
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00:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> surely you mean ten times the same ringtone commercial in a row ;o
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00:40:50  <luckzeh> that one.
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00:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> this is exactly why i did not watch MTV in years...
00:43:49  <luckzeh> heh
00:44:06  <luckzeh> Premiere has a fancy decent music chan. but that costs money, of course.
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01:00:27  <luckzeh> I wanted to sleep. night.
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01:24:48  <mikk36> has anyone read this page throughly ? (also most links) ?
01:24:48  <mikk36>
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04:47:03  <DesktopMan> hey everyone. Any developers avaible for a chat? I'm porting openttd and need some pointers
04:47:27  <DesktopMan> result so far:
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05:52:28  <MiHaMiX> DesktopMan: porting to which platform?
05:52:35  <MiHaMiX> DesktopMan: mobile phones?
05:52:43  <DesktopMan> Nintendo DS
05:52:47  <MiHaMiX> ahh
05:52:58  <DesktopMan> running into a bit of ram troubles
05:53:02  <DesktopMan> need to cut down here and there
05:53:07  <MiHaMiX> i don't have access to Nintendo :-(
05:53:14  <DesktopMan> why not?
05:54:12  <MiHaMiX> DesktopMan: because I don't have nintendo :-(
05:54:24  <DesktopMan> awww. not that expensive though, 120 usd :)
05:55:17  <MiHaMiX> DesktopMan: well, if you donate one me, I'll be able to test, otherwise I'm afraid not
05:55:50  <DesktopMan> :P
05:57:29  <MiHaMiX> bbl, going to work
05:57:37  <DesktopMan> later
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06:45:00  <CIA-5> tron * r5723 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
06:45:00  <CIA-5> - Move the declaration of DrawRoadDepotSprite() out of functions.h (but I'm not too happy with the new header)
06:45:00  <CIA-5> - Use DiagDirection instead of plain int for the orientation of the depot graphics
06:45:00  <CIA-5> - Rename the associated data tables with sprites to something more meaningful
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08:10:14  <CIA-5> rubidium * r5724 /branches/TGP/ (15 files): [TGP] -Feature: add the CharSetFilter to ShowQueryString, so we can be stricter about the input values.
08:16:33  <CIA-5> truelight * r5725 /branches/TGP/ (genworld.h saveload.c thread.c thread.h):
08:16:33  <CIA-5> [TGP] -Codechange: renamed Thread to OTTDThread, as Windows (who ever) uses
08:16:33  <CIA-5>  Thread in winbase.h, and starts complaining if you define it otherwise
08:16:33  <CIA-5>  (with weird, undefined errors) (tnx Arnau and Rubidium)
08:16:33  <CIA-5> [TGP] -Codechange: undefine the temporary defined OTTDThread in genworld.h, so
08:16:34  <CIA-5>  you can include thread.h after genworld.h without any problems (Rubidium)
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08:30:15  <publunch> The local authority says I am appealing, but won't allow me to build.  :(
08:31:10  <scia> appealing :D
08:31:11  <Rubidium> it says your appaling
08:31:29  <DesktopMan> is there a way to remove all threading easily?
08:32:00  <Rubidium> disable saving
08:32:15  <DesktopMan> is there a define for that somewhere?
08:32:24  * DesktopMan is just getting to know the code
08:32:27  <Rubidium> no.. however..
08:33:13  <Rubidium> you might try not spawning a thread in thread.c and modify the other functions so it behaves properly
08:33:20  <Rubidium> though I'm not sure that will work
08:33:30  <Rubidium> and why would you want to disable threading?
08:34:01  <DesktopMan> because I doubt it works. I'm porting to DS
08:34:36  <Rubidium> check thread.c and especially line 7-10
08:34:58  <DesktopMan> I also need to cut down on ram usage. Any quick tips? :)
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08:36:11  <Rubidium> I've got no tips, but maybe you can look at the memory pools
08:36:32  <Rubidium> for town, vehicles, stations etc.
08:36:37  <DesktopMan> yeah will do
08:36:45  <DesktopMan>
08:36:55  <DesktopMan> it gets that far, but runs out of memory if I start a game.
08:37:13  <Rubidium> how much memory does it have?
08:37:24  <DesktopMan> 4 mbyte
08:37:41  <DesktopMan> but it uses about 800 kbyte for binary
08:38:36  <Rubidium> have you tried with a 64x64 map?
08:39:04  <DesktopMan> yeah same thing
08:39:10  <DesktopMan> so it's really close at boot
08:39:33  <Kjetil> There is some standard things you can reduse. Max number of vehicles and stuff like that
08:39:56  <Kjetil> But I doubt you will get it runing on 4mb
08:40:06  <Rubidium> that doesn't reduce the initial size of the memorypools AFAIK
08:40:17  <DesktopMan> are there any data that would do fine on a 16 bit bus?
08:40:32  <DesktopMan> I can use external memory, but it's 16/32 bit write only
08:42:18  <DesktopMan> oh, and since it goes to the menu, do the bg game always run? or does it only run if the menu covers less than all of the screen
08:42:23  <Kjetil> Are you going to try running openttd on a 486 ?
08:42:38  <DesktopMan> no a Nintendo DS
08:42:42  <DesktopMan> and it runs to menu
08:42:42  <Kjetil> ok
08:43:03  <Rubidium> yes, but it does not need to load the sprites of the game as you won't see them
08:43:16  <DesktopMan> how much does it cache?
08:43:21  <Rubidium> maybe you can look at the caching of those sprites
08:43:22  <DesktopMan> all of it?
08:43:26  <Rubidium> I've got no idea
08:43:45  <Rubidium> maybe 1MB or so
08:44:08  <DesktopMan> yeah that would kill it.
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08:46:00  <DesktopMan> oooh SPRITE_CACHE_SIZE
08:46:05  <DesktopMan> that takes up a fair chunk
08:48:10  <DesktopMan> this would have been easier if I actually had a debugger :)
08:51:39  <Rubidium> isn't there some emulator with debugging functionality?
08:51:47  <DesktopMan> no they are still very primitive
08:52:10  <DesktopMan> I have all data files on compact flash in gba slot which also makes them break
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09:01:05  <DesktopMan> hmm, no matter how much of the level I show it allocs too much
09:01:09  <DesktopMan> even if it's just a strip of 32 pixels
09:01:27  <DesktopMan> so there must be some kind of alocation that takes place when graphics first appear
09:05:06  <Rubidium> then I'm out of suggestions/ideas
09:05:19  <CIA-5> truelight * r5726 /branches/TGP/window.h:
09:05:19  <CIA-5> [TGP] -Fix: r5724 increased the size of querystr_d, which is included by network_ql_d, which now went over the 88 bytes on 64bit systems. Increased to next possible size: 96.
09:05:19  <CIA-5> [TGP] -Fix: querystr_d was never compile-time checked if it fits in the custom size.
09:11:45  <DesktopMan> hmm it dies at "Out of sprite memory" in spritecache.c
09:14:32  <DesktopMan> if I put all files on a memory mapped device instead, none would have to be cached or read
09:14:36  <DesktopMan> I might have to do that
09:15:05  <DesktopMan> fread etc just returning a pointer to it
09:16:49  <Bjarni> 	<DesktopMan>	is there a define for that somewhere? <-- windows95 or something do not support threaded saving, so I guess it got a define there to disable it... I just don't know where
09:17:14  <Bjarni> I never really bothered to look for it as I always considered threaded saving a good thing and it works
09:17:19  <DesktopMan> :)
09:18:30  <Bjarni> actually it's a runtime "define" since it's a common exe file for all versions of windows, so I guess it's an if or flag somewhere
09:18:53  <DesktopMan> righto
09:19:52  <Bjarni> well, that's my guess. To be sure, either read the code or ask Darkvater when he shows up. I can remember that he used to work on threaded saving
09:20:08  <Bjarni> but why would you want to unthread the game?
09:20:21  <DesktopMan> as I said, threads arn't too happy on Nintendo DS
09:20:22  <DesktopMan> :)
09:20:25  <Bjarni> ahh
09:20:34  <hylje> :p
09:20:45  <hylje> someone really ported ottd to ds?
09:20:54  <DesktopMan> it doesn't run ingame yet
09:20:59  <Bjarni> you likely said that before I got online today
09:21:03  <DesktopMan> ah
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09:21:17  <Bjarni> isn't that the device, that only got 4 mb memory or something?
09:21:39  <DesktopMan> yeah
09:21:43  <DesktopMan> going to be tight :)
09:21:55  <hylje> memory conserving magic
09:21:56  <hylje> ftw
09:22:07  <Bjarni> well, so far you are doing great progress compared to the former guy, who tried to port to DS
09:22:18  <peter1138> heh
09:22:40  <Bjarni> it took him like an hour to figure out that he needed to use the sdl headers to make his sdl lib work
09:22:51  <hylje> hah
09:25:01  <Bjarni> <-- this is the result of the first attempt :D
09:25:31  <DesktopMan> I might have to do something ugly, like decompress all files
09:25:42  <DesktopMan> and build a binary out of them, then return plain pointers
09:25:46  <peter1138> hmm
09:26:05  <hylje> Bjarni: paste that quote to priv since im on my 9300
09:26:12  <DesktopMan> it would atleast eliminate any sprite cache and file reads
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09:28:17  <DesktopMan> which file has sounds?
09:28:22  <DesktopMan> I might ditch those for the time beeing
09:28:36  <peter1138>
09:28:44  <peter1138> you can make it a zero byte file
09:28:47  <DesktopMan> so it was obvious.
09:28:48  <DesktopMan> P
09:28:56  <peter1138> then it'll still work, with no sounds
09:29:07  <DesktopMan> files without are about 3 mbyte
09:29:10  <DesktopMan> err, 4 mbyte
09:29:16  <peter1138> i don't think you'd need to decompress the graphics files
09:29:17  <DesktopMan> they can't be larger than 32 mbyte uncompressed can they?
09:29:35  <DesktopMan> then I'd have to decompress on draw
09:29:41  <DesktopMan> which wouldn't be very fast
09:29:52  <peter1138> that's what it does
09:30:03  <DesktopMan> the cache caches uncompressed doesn't it
09:30:07  <DesktopMan> it seems to be doing both
09:30:07  <peter1138> they're not "compressed" as such
09:30:25  <peter1138> no
09:30:31  <peter1138> the sprite cache literally just caches it
09:30:49  <DesktopMan> oh allright
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09:31:20  <DesktopMan> how can it run out of sprite cache if it just reads and decompresses if it's full :)
09:31:55  <peter1138> it always tries to use it, i guess
09:32:42  <peter1138> hmm
09:32:45  <peter1138> actually
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09:33:40  <CIA-5> rubidium * r5727 /branches/TGP/ (9 files in 2 dirs): [TGP] -Add: the ability to load BMP files for heightmaps if you're compiling with SDL
09:34:02  <peter1138> yeah
09:34:08  <peter1138> readsprite doesn't look like decompression to me :)
09:34:22  <peter1138> just copies it
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09:34:35  <peter1138> along with calculating array sizes
09:34:59  <DesktopMan> right. so just returning a pointer would be fine
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09:37:12  <peter1138> well
09:37:14  <peter1138> sort of
09:37:41  <peter1138> there're a couple of things to check... FioReadWord() ensure endian-safeness, for example
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09:38:36  <DesktopMan> it ends up in fread anyway
09:38:44  <DesktopMan> so if I just patch the stdio routines I should be fine and dandy
09:39:01  <DesktopMan> "just"
09:40:32  <DesktopMan> might be a romfs avaible so I can cheat a bit.
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09:50:37  <DesktopMan> hmm where/how do I set a higher debug level
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09:59:01  <tron_> peter1138: ReadSprite() decompresses the sprite on load (about line 130)
09:59:52  <peter1138> oh
10:00:34  <peter1138> crack-ass compression
10:02:01  <DesktopMan> it does a whole lot of calls to DeleteEntryFromSpriteCache until it hits best==-1
10:02:33  <DesktopMan> if it always ends up as uncompressed, I might save alot of memory and cpu by just returning a pointer to it
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10:18:15  <peter1138> Expansion Slots  o One x16 PCI Express slot with x16 signal o One x16 PCI Express slot with x4 signal
10:18:18  <peter1138> hmmm
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10:28:09  <Darkvater> peter1138: what are you talking about?
10:28:24  <peter1138> rubbish
10:28:26  <peter1138> generally
10:28:40  <peter1138> trying to spec a server and noticed that... don't need PCI-E anyway
10:29:28  <Darkvater> ah
10:30:12  <Bjarni> Darkvater: I think DesktopMan got a question about threaded saving
10:30:25  <DesktopMan> I'm pestering him :P
10:30:26  <Bjarni> aka we got another one, who tries to port to DS :D
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10:36:10  <Darkvater> tzhe tron clones attack!
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10:38:21  <Darkvater> -1
10:38:31  <Bjarni> one down
10:38:33  <Bjarni> 3 to go
10:38:50  <Neonox> :)
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10:48:20  <Neonox> -1
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10:55:39  <Neonox> hi Tron
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11:57:05  <CIA-5> truelight * r5728 /branches/TGP/ (22 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
11:57:05  <CIA-5> [TGP] -Add: redid the whole GUI for World Generation
11:57:05  <CIA-5> [TGP] -Add: gave Heightmap his own GUI
11:57:05  <CIA-5> [TGP] -Change: changed the intro_gui
11:57:05  <CIA-5> [TGP] -Change: changed the tg_seed to generation_seed, because it now works for
11:57:05  <CIA-5> all generators. Use the same seed with the same options, and you get _exactly_
11:57:09  <CIA-5> the same map, down to the little details as trees and population.
11:59:13  <peter1138> s/his/its/
11:59:25  <peter1138> silly languages with genders ;)
11:59:43  <Bjarni> it's more like English is no fun
11:59:43  <peter1138> bah
11:59:52  <Bjarni> you have to have at least two genders to have real fun :)
12:00:55  <CIA-5> truelight * r5729 /branches/TGP/settings_gui.c: [TGP] -Remove: removed the patch settings that are also in the generate world GUI
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12:14:33  <CIA-5> truelight * r5730 /branches/TGP/ (genworld_gui.c lang/english.txt): [TGP] -Add: give a simple warning if a user makes a change in GenerateWorld GUI that changes the difficulty level to custom
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12:16:29  <CIA-5> truelight * r5731 /branches/TGP/TODO.TGP: [TGP] -Fix: remove an item from the TODO when it is done
12:28:25  <roboman> gnight
12:30:27  <Mucht|work> night? where :-P
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13:32:45  <luckzi> what exactly makes cities grow, by the way? and is there some patch for them to.. do that in more civilized ways?
13:33:06  <hylje> passenger service
13:33:11  <Bjarni> goods
13:33:12  <hylje> and in some climates food and water
13:33:12  <Bjarni> mail
13:33:53  <Bjarni> you are in bad luck if it's a town in the desert without a water tower. You need to deliver food and water for it to grow
13:34:07  <Bjarni> if they don't accept it, then forget about that town
13:34:17  <Bjarni> in arctic towns in the snow needs food to grow
13:34:38  <Bjarni> and by needs, they will not grow if it lacks nomatter what else you do
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13:36:22  <toweri> BTW, that "no water tower in desert" reminds me - I'm using a semi-recent MiniIN (r5400something), generated an arctic 512*512 map with low towns and industries... and ended up with gazillion paper mills and printing works, but no forests at all... is this considered bad luck or a bug? :P
13:36:51  <hylje> kind of bug, forests show only up on high ground
13:37:00  <hylje> so if landscape is low, theres no high ground
13:38:53  <toweri> ...oh. right.
13:39:28  <toweri> Well, I guess I'll stick to hauling food (with its precursors), passengers, coal, oil, mail...
13:39:42  <toweri> Or generate a new map...
13:40:11  <Bjarni> <hylje>	so if landscape is low, theres no high ground <-- now that sounds like a bug :P
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13:48:09  <CIA-5> truelight * r5732 /branches/TGP/tgp.c: [TGP] -Remove: removed timer-code in TGP that tapped into YAPF core.. a bit nasty
13:50:40  <Bjarni> toweri: just checked. It's intended behaviour since you requested no hills ;)
13:51:16  <toweri> Well, the computer does exactly as asked...
13:52:02  <Bjarni> see
13:52:07  <Bjarni> then what is the problem?
13:52:18  <Bjarni> bug: the computer did as I asked it to do
13:53:24  <hylje> That is unintended behaviour and will be fixed in the next version.
13:54:20  <Bjarni> yeah
13:54:41  <Bjarni> max 10% of the tiles are allowed to be flat if you request a flat terrain
13:54:55  <Bjarni> otherwise it's too easy :p
13:55:39  <CIA-5> truelight * r5733 /branches/TGP/tgp.c: (log message trimmed)
13:55:39  <CIA-5> [TGP] -Remove: removed credits from source-files. If we start listing everyone
13:55:39  <CIA-5>  who wrote a piece of code, most likely that list will be longer then the
13:55:39  <CIA-5>  code itself (no offense). So, from this position I want to thank R. Kempton
13:55:39  <CIA-5>  and KUDr for their great work on the TGP code, and HJ. Malthaner for the
13:55:40  <CIA-5>  original code this TGP is based on, and all the others helped debugging and
13:55:44  <CIA-5>  commenting on it. Tnx!
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13:55:58  <Sacro> ahh, chatzilla
13:56:22  <glx> chatzilla is good for irc beginner :)
13:56:48  <glx> its main problem is when you crash firefox
13:57:02  <hylje> imho irssi is good for irc beginner
13:57:17  <Zavior> mirc
13:57:35  <Sacro> heh, i was going to install Hydra
13:58:16  <Sacro> *drools*
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14:06:18  <CIA-5> truelight * r5734 /branches/TGP/ (genworld_gui.c lang/english.txt): [TGP] -Fix: forgot to fix a TODO on the title of the World Generate GUIs
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