Log for #openttd on 31st May 2007:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:04:20  <Bjarni> goodnight
00:04:28  <Bjarni> rest in peace doc
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00:04:41  <doc> :)
00:10:15  *** glx|away is now known as glx
00:13:14  <Sacro|Laptop> any french/german speakers in here?
00:13:33  <glx> french why?
00:13:54  <Sacro|Laptop> mine is a bit rusty
00:13:58  <Sacro|Laptop> what is "Where is?"
00:14:02  <Belugas> two french for you serviec
00:14:08  <glx> où est?
00:14:21  <Sacro|Laptop> my housemate is going to switzerland tommorow, and she knows no french or german
00:14:28  <Belugas> "donde es" in spanish
00:14:46  <Sacro|Laptop> Belugas: yes, cos she might need to speak spanish
00:14:49  <glx> hmm they speak italian there IIRC
00:15:08  <Sacro|Laptop> glx: don't confuse us :p
00:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> swiss people are likely to know at least 4 languages :p
00:15:50  <Belugas> well... maybe yo could offer her an electronic translator :)
00:15:56  <Sacro|Laptop> Eddi|zuHause2: will one of them be english?
00:15:59  <Sacro|Laptop> or chinese
00:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> english probably, chinese less likely :p
00:16:26  <Belugas> anyway, english is understood about anywhere in the world...
00:16:37  <Sacro|Laptop> Eddi|zuHause2: "Where is" auf deautsch?
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00:16:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> "Wo ist"
00:17:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> swiss people speak a totally weird dialect of german anyway :p
00:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> it
00:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> 's way worse than the austrian and bavarian dialects :p
00:18:33  <Sacro|Laptop> hehe
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00:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> the dialect is called "Hochalemannisch", or more commonly "Switzerdütsch"
00:22:59  <Sacro|Laptop> mmm
00:23:03  <Sacro|Laptop> i wanna travel
00:23:08  * Sacro|Laptop considers going to Europe
00:23:26  <glx> you live in Europe
00:23:30  <Sacro|Laptop> do i?
00:23:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> from a european's view, you are already in europe
00:23:54  <Sacro|Laptop> yes, but from an English person's point of view, we aren't
00:23:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> europe is everything from iceland to the kaukasus
00:26:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, i should sleep... have to get up early
00:26:24  <Sacro|Laptop> it's hardly Europe stuck on this crappy island
00:27:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> even if you reduce europe to the european union, you're still in europe
00:27:33  <Belugas> yeah european continent
00:27:43  <Belugas> in the geographical way
00:27:50  <Sacro|Laptop> we usually class Europe as the mainland
00:27:56  <Sacro|Laptop> ie not England or Iceland
00:31:01  <glx> but your not in euro zone :)
00:32:52  <Sacro|Laptop> timezone? no
00:36:47  <glx> money ;)
00:37:08  <Sacro|Laptop> money?
00:37:15  <Sacro|Laptop> oh, we don't want the euro
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00:37:40  <Belugas> yeah, you'd better off with american dollars :D
00:37:51  <Sacro|Laptop> the dollar is sinking qite badly
00:38:14  <Belugas> ho...that is why the canadian $ is so high :D
00:38:33  <glx> isn't it the same?
00:38:39  * glx runs
00:38:44  <Sacro|Laptop> yeah
00:38:52  <Sacro|Laptop> its about £2 to the dollar
00:38:59  <Sacro|Laptop> its nice for importing stuff
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00:39:31  <Sacro|Laptop> jasper is back on irc
00:40:16  <Belugas> far from it, glx :) can$ is waaaaaaay more cute ;)
00:41:01  <Sacro|Laptop> its like monopoly money
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00:58:17  <Belugas> right :S
01:00:28  <Jerub> I'm loving how the us dollar is going.
01:00:40  <Jerub> I just did a thinkgeek order, and I'm considering an amazon order.
01:01:07  <Sacro|Laptop> lol
01:03:14  <_Mist_> yeah, it's never been cheaper
01:03:25  <_Mist_> well, not for as long as I've been alive, that is :P
01:03:58  <Jerub> :p
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02:13:32  <vofflan> Hi
02:13:42  <Digitalfox> hi
02:13:46  <vofflan> Can someone send me a config with a server running without slope penalty?
02:13:49  <vofflan> i cant get it to work :|
02:14:06  <Digitalfox> oh, that i can't help.. :(
02:14:12  <glx> realistic_acceleration on
02:14:17  <vofflan> on?
02:14:34  <glx> realistic_acceleration = true in openttd.cfg
02:14:59  <vofflan> yeah
02:15:03  <vofflan> how the hell does that work?
02:15:05  <vofflan> doesnt make sense D:
02:15:14  <vofflan> Well thank you anyway :P
02:16:29  <Digitalfox> good night everyone
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03:35:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r9994 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h): -Codechange: Add pointers for Industry and Industry Tiles in the grf file.
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07:21:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9995 /trunk/src/genworld.cpp: -Fix (r9962): Don't scroll the map at the start of a new game
07:22:09  <wboekabart> morning peter1138 ;)
07:22:17  <wboekabart> good way to start the day
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07:34:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9996 /trunk/src/ (road_cmd.cpp station_cmd.cpp): -Fix: be more strict when building/upgrading roads and/or road stops.
07:35:53  *** wboekabart is now known as boekabart
07:36:07  <boekabart> gettin' reaaaally close
07:36:43  <Rubidium> 0.6 isn't really that close
07:36:52  <boekabart> LOL
07:37:28  <valhallasw> I wonder what kind of function you could fit between revision and full version *grin*
07:38:41  <Vikthor> Hi boekabart. I told Marek about your interest in aging tracks, did he contact you?
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07:42:36  <boekabart> Vikthor: Yes he did!
07:42:46  <boekabart> but also Ben_K is trying something out
07:43:01  <boekabart> I hope to find some time today or tomorrow to try some coding
07:44:29  <Vikthor> Wonderfull, I am looking forward to what will come out of this ;)
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09:02:34  <TheJosh> hey
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09:54:11  <Luukland> Frostregen__ you are welcome :)
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11:34:26  <boekabart>
11:34:39  <Sionide> oooold
11:34:39  <lolman> boekabart, old ;)
11:34:46  <Sionide> sorry boekabart ;)
11:34:50  <boekabart> KTHXBYE
11:35:06  <Sionide> i said day before yest, that i was gonna translate ottd into lolcode :p
11:35:32  <boekabart> IZ TRAIN EMPTY NOWAI!
11:36:11  <Bjarni> maybe toyland could do with a lolcode addon
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11:47:07  <kaan> hello
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12:16:41  <kaan> :D just read wtf today and i stumbled over this
12:17:16  <hylje> silly netherlanders
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12:35:31  <eekee> hehe
12:36:22  <eekee> script languages... What if ottd had embedded script interpreters, but a different language for each region?
12:36:25  <eekee> lolcode for toyland
12:36:42  <eekee> Java for tropical (more than one reason...)
12:37:26  <Kjetil> brainfuck for toyland
12:37:48  <eekee> I dunno whether Python should be for temperate because it was named after Mony Python - British; or Northern because it was (iirc) designed originally by a scandinavian
12:37:56  <eekee> Kjetil: yeah :D
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12:39:30  <Maedhros> ye gods
12:39:40  <Maedhros> i'd forgotten how slow the very early dbsetxl engines are...
12:39:58  <eekee> ouch?
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12:42:00  * eekee googles dbsetxl -- "ooh, propper hoppers"
12:42:27  <Maedhros> yeah, it's nice :)
12:42:38  <Maedhros> just very very slow to begin with ;)
12:42:54  <eekee> heheh
12:43:26  <peter1138> 49km/h!
12:43:38  <peter1138> my poor BR92s
12:43:44  <eekee> mew
12:44:00  <peter1138> although, the BR75s are out nwo
12:44:43  <eekee> same speed as the... um... little 060 from the temperate region, right? I use them all through my game when I can, because they can turn a profit on lines so short that nothing else can, lol
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12:45:37  <peter1138> similar speed
12:46:40  <eekee> right
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12:47:55  <eekee> I usually play with "vehicles never expire" on, and just use whatever engine seems appropriate for each route, anyone else here play like that?
12:48:56  * boekabart still didn't find out how to easily replace an old engine by a more modern replacement
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12:49:49  <eekee> boekabart: scrap the engine (just the engine) & build the new one. It will come up with the same number & orders
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12:50:16  <eekee> (Goes all the way back to TTD or TTO, that ^^)
12:50:50  <boekabart> eekee: yeah that's not what I call easy... if you have 80 trains slowly expiring one by one
12:51:02  <eekee> ohhhh ah
12:51:14  <eekee> I think there's something in the global train list...
12:51:47  <eekee> I also think I saw an upgrade button somewhere in the debot window, but not sure
12:51:47  <boekabart> i hear there is something, never really searched.
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12:58:49  <iPandaMojo> Yeah, there is a mass replace interface
12:59:16  <iPandaMojo> It'll send them to depot automatically for you and everything
13:00:22  <iPandaMojo> At the top UI bar, there's a train icon --- clicking it brings up a list of your traints
13:00:24  <iPandaMojo> *trains
13:01:01  <boekabart> iPandaMojo: and then?
13:01:04  <iPandaMojo> Select "replace vehicles" from the dropdown next to the "Manage list" button to bring up the replace UI.
13:01:20  <iPandaMojo> (e.g. the little down arrow)
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13:01:31  <boekabart> thanks, I'll try that when next opportunity. I've been too lazy to look for it I guess.
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13:36:31  <boekabart> Grass growing on unused tracks:
13:36:57  <Kjetil> Cool :P
13:38:26  <hylje> quite
13:38:45  <hylje> now if we could have graceful borderpieces
13:38:52  <hylje> it would be most perfect
13:39:39  <boekabart> I guess if the sprites were a bit bigger
13:39:56  <boekabart> extending into the next/previous graciously... that would work, right?
13:40:18  <hylje> yep
13:40:41  <hylje> it could and should start right away but a bushy border would be nice looking
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14:16:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r9997 /trunk/src/lang/ (american.txt french.txt):
14:16:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-05-31 16:16:13
14:16:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: american - 30 fixed by WhiteRabbit (30)
14:16:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changed by glx (1)
14:17:36  <Kjetil> OoO r10000 soon
14:18:10  <hylje> 999
14:18:11  <hylje> 9
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14:29:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9998 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Fix (r9990): possible null pointer dereferences on MorphOS.
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14:54:20  <clb> could someone give me a hand? I built openttd on winxp/vs80 successfully but I suppose I'm missing something since when I try to run the game using my .exe, it complains about not being able to load any .grf -files. any ideas?
14:54:41  <Touqen> Did you put the .grf files in the right location?
14:55:15  <clb> I tried copying the .exe from the Release folder to the same directory where the openttd.exe resides in the latest release,
14:56:12  <clb> so the .grf's were in .\data\ relative to the exe, and I also tried putting the .grf's in the same directory as the exe, but no luck
14:56:30  <Touqen> And your configuration file is correct?
14:56:42  <clb> it just starts with 'Your 'openttd.grf' file is corrupted or missing!'
14:57:11  <Touqen> clb: How are you starting it?
14:57:21  <clb> I have openttd.cfg file in the same directory as the exe, and if I run the original openttd.exe from the 0.5.2 release, it starts fine
14:57:33  <clb> directly from explorer, i.e. not in VS80
14:58:30  <Touqen> When you downloaded the sources from SVN, it should have included all that stuff in the directories that it gets built into and should be using that version of the files, not the ones from the lastest stable.
14:59:19  <clb> ah ok, so it seeks differently relative to the .exe with the latest stable?
14:59:21  <peter1138> the grfs in trunk are different from those in 0.5.2
15:00:29  <clb> ah ok, I'll try the svn data files out and see how it goes
15:00:42  <Touqen> clb: That's why nightlies don't include "just" the binary, but they include other stuff too.
15:02:18  <clb> thanks! now it runs fine
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15:11:12  <Iron> hello
15:11:16  <clb> ok now, then doing the same feat in linux.. I first run ./configure which goes through fine, then make, which also succeeds, and finally when I run the binary, it just returns to prompt immediately without any warning whatsoever.
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15:13:54  <Iron> why is that that i have a coal mine which i transport coal from but i can only achieve that 69% of coal is transported, while i run 3 trains on the line, 1 train always waiting at the station to load up (they're set up to full load)
15:14:10  <Iron> and my rating on the station is high, 82%
15:14:43  <Iron> oh damn, wait, nevermind
15:15:02  * Iron slaps forehead
15:15:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9999 /trunk/ (12 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: make it possible to disallow busses and lorries to go a specific way on straight pieces of road.
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15:17:20  <izhirahider> oh
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15:17:53  <izhirahider> Who's the milestoner? :)
15:18:10  <hylje> rubi most likely
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15:22:28  <Wolf01> hello
15:22:33  <clb> is there a way to build the binary in linux with some verbose/debug output so I could track why it would be failing?
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15:27:26  <skidd13> Is there a way to convert a SpriteID to Sprite?
15:28:05  <Rubidium> GetSprite(..) ?
15:28:19  <Rubidium> SpriteID is something completely different than a Sprite
15:28:57  <Wolf01> uhm, one way roads?
15:30:13  <Wolf01> about r10k, I bet on Belugas for newindustries :D
15:30:22  <skidd13> GetSprite is what I was looking for. Thanks.
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15:31:04  <peter1138> $ svn up
15:31:04  <peter1138> At revision 10000.
15:31:11  <boekabart> :)
15:31:30  <lolman> Just another rev then?
15:31:30  <Sionide> woo!
15:32:04  <Touqen> 9999 one way roads?
15:32:07  <boekabart> yes
15:32:11  <Sionide> neat
15:32:12  <boekabart> well prep for it i think
15:32:17  <Touqen> interesting
15:32:18  <Wolf01> you might be so evil to make a void revision for 10k
15:32:31  <boekabart> Rubidium did :)
15:32:52  <Rubidium> what? lies!
15:32:59  <Wolf01> :D
15:33:35  <boekabart> hm
15:33:41  <Rubidium> svn log -r HEAD:10000 svn://
15:33:43  <boekabart> someone or something did
15:33:49  <boekabart> yeah, empty
15:33:53  <boekabart> not even a date
15:34:14  <clb> well I got the dedicated server running, but other than that, it won't do anything in client mode at all.
15:35:54  <Belugas> maybe this will please you for the "loss" of 10k :
15:35:54  <Belugas> ;)
15:36:05  <Wolf01> i'm so sad i might be going home when r10k happens :(
15:36:15  <boekabart> Wolf01:  IT HAS HAPPENED
15:36:30  <boekabart> it's an empty void commit by no-one
15:36:38  <boekabart> someone had that all planned
15:36:46  <boekabart> or it's an SVN feature
15:36:51  <lolman> I bet it was Rubidium
15:36:59  <Wolf01> i don't see it in cia
15:37:01  <boekabart> heh, the betting starts again
15:37:15  <boekabart> Wolf01: (5:33:11 PM) Rubidium: svn log -r HEAD:10000 svn://
15:37:35  <lolman> r10000 | (no author) | (no date) | 1 line
15:37:39  <Wolf01> that's a fake ;)
15:38:41  <peter1138> Belugas: COMMIT!
15:38:58  <peter1138> wait, i'm not Born_Acorn...
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15:40:09  <Belugas> but close ;)
15:41:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10001 /trunk/src/ (industry.h newgrf.cpp table/build_industry.h): -Codechange: Add support for removing dynamically allocated newgrf data
15:41:08  <nairan> yay
15:41:16  <Wolf01> doh
15:41:25  <nairan> like someone worte they left it out
15:41:30  <nairan> *wrote
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15:41:42  <Wolf01> how evil :D
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15:43:22  <Wolf01> i must keep silence next time :P
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15:58:00  <UndernotBuilder> !openttd commit 10000
15:58:01  <_42_> Commit by rubidium :: r10000 (none) (2007-05-31 15:16:44 UTC)
15:58:05  <UndernotBuilder> lolz
15:58:14  <UndernotBuilder> !openttd commit 10001
15:58:15  <_42_> Commit by belugas :: r10001 /trunk/src/ (industry.h newgrf.cpp table/build_industry.h) (2007-05-31 15:40:36 UTC)
15:58:17  <_42_> -Codechange: Add support for removing dynamically allocated newgrf data
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15:59:01  <UndernotBuilder> Rubidium fooled all :D
15:59:23  <UndernotBuilder> oh, and I didn't know that was possible to commit a empty revision
15:59:29  <skidd13> check 9999 ;)
15:59:34  <UndernotBuilder> I know
15:59:52  <boekabart> Rubidium: so it WAS you after all
16:00:01  * Wolf01 goes home
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16:00:16  <UndernotBuilder> so... mr. X wins
16:00:18  *** orudge [~orudge@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:00:46  <Belugas> UndernotBuilder : it was not en ampty revision :) it has stuff, believe me.
16:01:09  <Ailure> ah
16:01:12  <Ailure> oh heh
16:01:17  <Ailure> most of the revisions in a school project i'm in
16:01:20  <Ailure> is like that
16:01:26  <Ailure> since we're too lazy commenting what we did
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16:02:32  <UndernotBuilder> so the nearest guess was the mr.x one:
16:02:34  <UndernotBuilder> Or just skip 10k and go from r9999 just to r10001.
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16:15:10  <ledow> Just popped in to say... Thanks Rubidium for the one-way roads. :-)
16:16:34  <Maedhros> !openttd ports
16:16:41  <Maedhros> !openttd port
16:16:41  <_42_> Maedhros: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advsertise) communication (outbound)
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16:25:01  <Wolf01> hello
16:27:00  <Sacro> why can't one way roads have junctions?
16:27:11  <hylje> one-way roads?!
16:27:58  <Sacro> and why can't you convert a 1 way to 2 way automatically?
16:28:09  <Wolf01> because you must set the flag in the pieces after and before the junction
16:28:11  <Wolf01> as in ttdpatch
16:28:18  <Sacro> Wolf01: oh?
16:28:36  <boekabart> like rails, you set the sign somewhere on the road
16:28:51  <boekabart> around the crossings or in the middle
16:28:56  <Rubidium> ttdpatch pretends to support it on junctions, but it doesn't work on junctions
16:29:18  <Rubidium> *and* making it work properly on junctions would require 4 times as much bits
16:29:28  <Wolf01> and i like it as it is
16:29:33  <Sacro> true
16:29:56  <Sacro> though it'd be better if there was an "autoconvert to 2 way if needed" switch
16:30:06  <hylje> its not like road junctions use a load of bits?
16:30:28  <Wolf01> and now i must find a way to get the main title scroll bugfree
16:30:43  <Rubidium> hylje: are you really sure about that?
16:30:47  <hylje> no
16:31:18  <Sacro> hmm
16:31:33  <Sacro> when you drag over a one way street with one way the other way, bad things happen
16:32:21  <peter1138> "Can't build road here..."
16:32:27  <Sacro> holding ctrl shouldn't toggle the status
16:32:30  <peter1138> should be "Can't make road one-way here..." or something
16:32:36  <Sacro> ctrl should be always one way
16:32:47  <peter1138> nice
16:33:17  <Rubidium> Sacro: and how to make a unaccessible road and/or remove onewayness?
16:33:23  <Sacro> Rubidium: R
16:33:31  <Sacro> unaccessable?
16:33:34  <Sacro> shouldn't be allowed
16:33:51  <Sacro> i keep overlaying roads and losing the one-way-ness
16:33:52  <Sacro> its a pain
16:34:22  <boekabart> it should works the same as railway signals imho, interface wise
16:35:01  <Sacro> boekabart: yes
16:35:04  <Sacro> err... maybe
16:36:21  <Wolf01> found a bug
16:36:22  <Sacro> and depots should convert the road peice in front
16:36:27  <Sacro> and then join
16:36:33  <Wolf01> and this time in trunk
16:37:41  <Wolf01> to replicate it: build a road depot in the middle of nothing, purchase a vehicle, start the vehicle
16:37:59  <Wolf01> asserts something on road type
16:39:39  <Wolf01> GetRoadTileType(t) == ROAD_TILE_NORMAL
16:40:55  <Wolf01> can i get a medal?
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16:42:37  <Sacro> road_map.h:163: DisallowedRoadDirections GetDisallowedRoadDirections(TileIndex): Assertion `GetRoadTileType(t) == ROAD_TILE_NORMAL' failed.
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16:47:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10002 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r9999): don't try to get the disallowed directions from a road depot...
16:47:56  <boekabart> !commit 10002
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16:48:11  <Rubidium> boekabart: just be patient
16:50:43  <Wolf01> peter1138, somebody recalled to my mind that i have some improvements for the transparent options, do you want some of them in separate patches?
16:53:21  * boekabart had too much coffee today
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16:56:14  <Progman> placing a one-way road vertical to an existing road build a junction, this should be rejected imo
16:57:23  <Rubidium> huh?
17:00:18  <Progman> wait a moment, slicing the screenshots...
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17:03:59  <Progman> <- before the first ctrl-click
17:04:23  <SpComb> Logs:
17:04:23  <Bjarni> !logs
17:04:32  <Progman> <- after the first ctrl-click
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17:05:01  <Progman> <- expected error message at second ctrl-click
17:05:35  <Progman> so, imo it shouldn't build a junction if you try to build a one-way road vertical to an existing road
17:05:55  <Noldo> oneway roads?
17:06:44  <Progman> Noldo: green arrows on the 3. image
17:07:10  <boekabart> Are fast vehicles supposed to overtake slow ones?
17:07:18  <boekabart> ah they do :)
17:07:22  <hylje> highways!
17:07:31  <hylje> now we need crazy road pathfinder caching
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17:07:39  <hylje> so we could have crazy amounts of rvs
17:07:40  <boekabart> but slow down a lot while passing
17:09:26  <Progman> ouu, overtake can be dangerous, if the miss a drive (if you have high-ways) ;)
17:09:53  <boekabart> i just built a highway
17:10:00  <hylje> omg
17:10:03  <boekabart> and the fast busses do overtake the 56 kmh lorries
17:10:10  <boekabart> but slow down to 50 first
17:10:13  <hylje> :(
17:10:15  <boekabart> like women passing on a highway
17:10:32  <hylje> how do you pass someone at -6km/h speed difference
17:10:40  <boekabart> FIRST slow down
17:10:45  <boekabart> then accelerate and overtake
17:10:46  <Noldo> boekabart: tell them they don't have to
17:10:56  <boekabart> Noldo: easier sais than done :)
17:11:00  <boekabart> said
17:11:00  <Progman> but it looks cool anyway
17:11:34  <boekabart> i think RVs accelerate slower than trains in ottd :(
17:11:44  <hylje> rvs have less HP
17:11:47  <hylje> in general
17:12:06  <boekabart> hylje: also less tonnes
17:12:17  <Sacro> tonnage
17:12:19  <boekabart> all RVs accelerate faster than trains
17:12:25  <boekabart> in real life
17:12:36  <hylje> irl trains are underpowered :-)
17:12:45  <boekabart> no, rv's are overpowered
17:12:52  <boekabart> who needs to hit 60mph in 5 secs?
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17:15:14  <Wolf01> peter1138, are you there?
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17:17:04  <Progman> Rubidium: you get what I mean?
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17:18:53  <Rubidium> yes, now I do... but I wonder whether it is really wanted because adding this warning would mean you cannot make one big one way road through (other) crossing roads
17:21:39  <Progman> ou, you can hold and drag
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17:22:06  <hylje> when 1way roads are ready
17:22:21  <hylje> someone patch town AI to upgrade "mainline" streets to 2 tile
17:22:34  <boekabart> hold/drag: you can, but it cancels the first one if you do it like on rails
17:23:29  <Rubidium> boekabart: you do not make any sense
17:23:37  <boekabart> :)
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17:24:12  <hylje> well
17:24:17  <hylje> welcome to the club it seems
17:24:39  <Progman> one-way doesn't work for trams, do it?
17:25:34  <boekabart> Rubidium: Here goes. I build a 'one way' arrow, ok.
17:25:38  <Sacro> yeah... just route them round in a circle
17:25:46  <Sacro> they can't turn around on their own can they?
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17:25:53  <boekabart> then with ctrl, I drag from there along the road
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17:26:06  <boekabart> the whole drag'area becomes oneway, but the initial tile loses its arrow
17:26:44  <Rubidium> oh... that
17:26:53  <Rubidium> that's because these work a little different
17:27:07  <boekabart> Rubidium: to be honest... I think I'd be easier for most users if the UI for oneway would work more like the signal ui
17:27:09  <Rubidium> you 'toggle' the one way status
17:27:28  <boekabart> the clicking on the right side of the road with the right direction just made the lack of autoroad worse imho
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17:27:53  <boekabart> a rotate, left, right, block, free would be user-friendlier I think?
17:28:13  <boekabart> with a separate button like the signal button
17:30:34  <boekabart> i like the feature though, just built a cloverleaf for cars
17:30:46  <hylje> :o
17:30:54  <boekabart> to bad cars don't seem to pass on bridges
17:32:11  <boekabart> Rubidium: the worst is the 'blocked road' sign, since it IS linked to a direction but you cannot see it
17:32:25  <Rubidium> boekabart: if you can get proper graphics for both autoroad and the signal stuff (maybe even some roadside stop boards?)
17:32:30  <Progman> \o/
17:32:42  <Rubidium> boekabart: why can't you see the blocked road sign?
17:32:58  <Rubidium> aren't those arrows clear enough?
17:33:01  <boekabart> i see it, but not the direction (NW or SE) it's linked to
17:33:18  <boekabart> i click SE, then middle, i have a block
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17:33:33  <boekabart> but cannot change it to NW from there, only back to SW
17:33:54  <Rubidium> you can; just ctrl click on the sw part
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17:34:22  <boekabart> no, it changes back to SW
17:34:59  <Rubidium> then you (probably) fail in clicking properly, because it works for me
17:35:13  <Progman> works for me too
17:36:22  <Progman> but is a little bit confusing as you click on SW on a blocked tile and the NE arrow appears (as logical as you 'remove' the SW-one-way-info)
17:36:32  <boekabart> NOW i get it
17:36:40  <boekabart> click on the place where you DONT want it
17:36:42  <boekabart> ....
17:36:49  <Rubidium> boekabart: wrong
17:37:01  <Rubidium> you click on the place where you want to toggle the oneway-status of
17:37:14  <Sacro> its a toggle
17:37:14  <Rubidium> and the red thing means that both are "on"
17:37:17  <Sacro> which isn't very intuitive
17:37:27  <boekabart> NOW i get it!!
17:37:38  <Sacro> boekabart: yes... but it takes some headscratching
17:37:42  <boekabart> sure does!
17:38:04  <boekabart> basically you place a "don't enter here" sign
17:38:05  <Sacro> "both-one-way road"
17:38:07  <boekabart> riiight
17:38:10  <Sacro> err... thats 2 way then
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17:38:19  <Sacro> should be a both-no-way
17:38:23  <Sacro> or a dead end
17:38:33  <boekabart> then the gfx should be smth red, not green :)
17:38:38  <Progman> it is
17:38:51  <boekabart> i mean the other one :)
17:39:19  <boekabart> Rubidium: I guess there is no place for 1-way signs on bridge heads, is there?
17:39:19  <Progman>
17:40:16  <Rubidium> technically there is place
17:41:10  <Rubidium> but you say CTRL click cycling is "easier" to understand?
17:41:13  <Rubidium> but...
17:41:32  <boekabart> actually, placing them like rail signals
17:41:43  <Rubidium> when you do it like signals and you "place" these "one way signs" on the road, you won't see them as the normal signals are "allow both dirs"
17:41:50  <boekabart> i see the button icon already: the one way sign :)
17:42:01  <Rubidium> boekabart: that's not a button
17:42:13  <boekabart> we'll make it
17:42:16  <boekabart> (or have it made)
17:42:37  <boekabart> i mean: as in 'the universal one-way sign', the red O with the white -
17:43:07  <boekabart> Rubidium: yes, so the 4 'signal' states you cycle through are left, right, none, open
17:43:18  <boekabart> open beiing without gfx
17:43:35  <Rubidium> but what should the "default" (first) state be?
17:43:39  <boekabart> if you want me to, i can have a go at it
17:43:42  <boekabart> default = open
17:43:44  <boekabart> like now
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17:43:54  <boekabart> ah, the 'next'?
17:44:00  <boekabart> same as with rails
17:44:13  <boekabart> north
17:44:32  <boekabart> (open) -> north, south, closed -> open
17:44:47  <boekabart> svn up
17:44:52  <boekabart> sorry
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17:44:54  <Rubidium> boekabart: you can try to do it, but do it properly
17:45:58  <Sacro> nooo, just disable the toggle mode
17:46:04  <Sacro> i like up dragging and down dragging
17:46:18  <Sacro> but make it OR 1 with ctrl
17:46:23  <Sacro> and AND 0 without
17:46:28  <Sacro> rather than XOR
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17:46:47  <boekabart> Sacro: but why drag, you need the sign only once on the road
17:47:00  <Sacro> boekabart: you have to drag for the road anyway
17:47:59  <boekabart> Sacro: I don't see a good reason why to do it different than for rail
17:48:07  <boekabart> just out of symmetry
17:48:57  <Sacro> boekabart: alright...
17:49:01  <Sacro> just get rid of the damn toggle
17:49:02  <Sacro> its a pain
17:49:04  <TrueBrain> BOE!
17:49:15  <Rubidium> whaaah
17:49:27  <TrueBrain> :) Gna!
17:51:44  <Progman> the toggle is fine
17:52:09  <Progman> as you use half-tiles for road-builds
17:52:28  <Progman> so these fits the road-build style
17:52:34  <Progman> btw. ;)
17:53:15  <boekabart> nice
17:53:26  <Sacro> ooh
17:53:32  <Sacro> we can do pretty road junctions now
17:54:42  <boekabart> sacro: well there is a small problem still:
17:55:12  <TrueBrain> boekabart: how is that a problem?
17:55:12  <boekabart> so you need to make em a bit bigger, at least 1 tile between the small and big loop with a sign, like Progman has.
17:55:27  <Sacro> yeah...
17:55:33  <Sacro> cos you can't have one way over a junction
17:55:41  <boekabart> TrueBrain: Try doing that on a real freeway.
17:55:49  <Sacro> or one way on bridges :o
17:55:54  <TrueBrain> good you never saw me drive :)
17:56:04  <Sacro> TrueBrain: at least you save petrol
17:56:09  <TrueBrain> my point ;)
17:56:10  <boekabart> a solution is to remove the inner loops, and make the outer ones 2 way
17:56:16  <TrueBrain> so one-way doesn't work on bridges? :)
17:56:20  <boekabart> you can't pass on those outer loops in real life anyway
17:56:27  <boekabart> TrueBrain: you can't place the signs
17:56:33  <Sacro> boekabart: you can :p
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17:56:48  <boekabart> Sacro: YOU can :)
17:56:49  <hylje> :o
17:56:59  <TrueBrain> "willen is kunnen"
17:57:00  <Sacro> hylje: you alright there?
17:57:07  <hylje> no
17:57:09  <hylje> why?
17:57:11  <Sacro> methinks he may have figured out r9999
17:57:23  <TrueBrain> I like how Rubidium describe things :)
17:57:25  <hylje> who
17:57:28  <hylje> what
17:57:33  <boekabart> 1 thing is sure: the one way roads is going to cause a whole lot of traffic on the forums I think
17:57:33  <Sacro> TrueBrain: it made me think for a second
17:57:48  <Sacro> boekabart: but at least the traffic is now controllable
17:57:59  <Sacro> can you have 2 vehicles side by side in a stop yet?
17:58:04  <boekabart> Sacro: I'm very much FOR one way roads, that's not the thing
17:58:05  <Sionide> if you start putting one way rounds into towns, you can muck up the AI's buses
17:58:15  <boekabart> Sionide: You need to own the roads
17:58:18  <Sionide> ahh
17:58:22  * Sionide hasn't played with it yet
17:58:27  * Sacro builds a level crossing and claims the road
17:58:32  <Sacro> actually, that got fixed D:
17:58:39  <Sacro> i liked that trick in tto
17:58:45  <boekabart> Sacro: who didn't
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17:59:03  <boekabart> there is the same thing with trams now :)
17:59:58  <Progman> trams follow the same mechanic?
18:00:14  <Progman> (don't have one atm.)
18:00:37  <Rubidium> boekabart: what are you talking about?
18:01:51  <scia> :O openttd: /home/scia/openttd/trunk/src/road_map.h:22: RoadTileType GetRoadTileType(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_STREET)' failed.
18:01:55  <scia> Aborted (core dumped)
18:02:43  <hylje> heh trams can collide with RVs without problems
18:03:02  <boekabart> doh: on a one way signed road, cannot make a tram cross/juntion/curve
18:03:18  <hylje> tramway is road
18:03:35  <Rubidium> boekabart: that sounds like an issue
18:03:42  <Rubidium> scia: and?
18:03:48  <boekabart> Rubidium: sorry: tramways can cross, but not junction
18:03:55  <scia> I build a bridge
18:04:02  <boekabart> Rubidium: and can't turn
18:04:06  <scia> and sent a vehicle over it
18:04:26  <scia> the bridge is not connected to a road on the other side so it should reverse
18:04:37  <scia> that is how it occurre
18:04:38  <scia> d
18:05:09  <boekabart> but
18:05:30  <boekabart> Rubidium: but: if I have a tram turning into a straight road, and want to add a one way sign to it, i can
18:06:09  <Rubidium> boekabart: as I said, that's a "problem"; tram tracks shouldn't care about onewayness
18:06:15  <boekabart> same for a tram junction on straight road
18:06:35  <boekabart> so, bug is in tramway building code, too many checks?
18:06:58  <Rubidium> well, rather not enough checks ;)
18:08:21  <boekabart> Anyway, trams on a one way street aren't a good idea since they will drive the wrong way :)
18:08:57  <hylje> ha
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18:12:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10003 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r9999): crash when vehicle had to turn on a bridge.
18:12:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10004 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix: trams can always intersect/have junctions on one way roads (because they only work for busses and lorries).
18:13:03  <boekabart> Rubidium: you fast one you
18:14:01  <scia> thanks Rubidium :)
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18:24:03  <Zr40> Rubidium: could you get FS#104 committed? :)
18:26:38  <peter1138> only if it's rewritten
18:26:55  <Zr40> in what way?
18:28:52  <Noldo> oh my, autosaving 2k*2k map takes some time
18:29:46  <Thomas[NL]> I get the same error scia had :
18:29:47  <Thomas[NL]> openttd: /home/thomas/openttd/src/road_map.h:22: RoadTileType GetRoadTileType(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_STREET)' failed.
18:29:47  <Thomas[NL]> Aborted (core dumped)
18:29:53  <Thomas[NL]> r10004
18:31:25  <Thomas[NL]> I made a nice high-road clover-leaf and sended some vehicles over it
18:32:17  <Unaimed> Is there a simple way to display a window ingame? (from the code, something like alert("text");)
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18:34:09  <Noldo> Unaimed: there must be
18:35:30  <Unaimed> If that doesn't work, how do you print a line to the console?
18:37:04  <Zr40> printf?
18:37:44  <Maedhros> Noldo: the fact that it's possible doesn't mean it must be easy ;)
18:38:38  <Noldo> :)
18:41:15  <Unaimed> IConsolePrint prints to the console
18:43:05  <Noldo> I'm disapointed, None Industries doesn't stop them from being founded
18:43:17  <Zr40> that only applies to map generation
18:43:31  <Zr40> you could want an empty map, so that you can place industries yourself
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18:45:35  <Noldo> but you could also want none
18:45:42  <Zr40> then don't create them :)
18:46:23  <Noldo> yes, but random founding of new ones wasn't wat I wanted
18:46:33  <Noldo> grrr 'wat'
18:47:22  <boekabart> Noldo: You want the 'founding industries during game-time' function to take the # of industries settings into account?
18:47:33  <boekabart> .. sounds fair enough
18:47:37  <Belugas> Noldo, there is no patch settings to stop the industries to be funded while ingame
18:47:55  <hylje> Noldo: wat
18:48:09  *** Mucht [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:48:11  <Belugas> the only way for yu to do it is wait until newindustries is done and create your own grf that disable them all
18:48:56  *** Zr40_ [] has joined #openttd
18:50:01  <Noldo> But there are many nice new features added since I played last time
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19:00:50  <Noldo> What do the vehicle groups do?
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19:02:07  <Wolf01> groups the vehicles for easy handle them
19:03:19  <Noldo> what does that button near ceterline do?
19:03:33  <Maedhros> right click on it
19:05:31  <Zr40> peter1138: what needs to be rewritten?
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19:10:09  *** helb [~helb@] has quit [Quit: Logout]
19:14:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10005 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Merge two flags (2cc and newhouses) indicating some newgrf features have been loaded, and introduce the newindustry one.
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19:20:48  <Wolf01> boekabart, i really like your patches :D
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19:49:14  <UndernotBuilder> a question: the .net framework installer is requesting me microsoft installer 3.0 do anyone know what is the name of the installer of the last one so I search it?
19:49:35  <Wolf01> windows update
19:50:04  <UndernotBuilder> no, that downloads with it WGA and that will catch me
19:50:15  <Wolf01> autopatcher xp
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19:50:28  <Sionide> it's that rubbish program that lets you install from .msi files
19:50:29  <Sionide> eurgh
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19:50:43  <UndernotBuilder> but I can install .msi files :S
19:50:58  <graeme> just go to microsoft website and search for installer, you can download it
19:51:03  <Sionide> i don't know anything about windows
19:51:10  <Wolf01> yes if you have the required framework version
19:51:10  <Sionide> (anymore)
19:52:31  <UndernotBuilder> because I remember some time ago being able to install .net fw but now don't
19:52:48  <UndernotBuilder> but in that moment I have upgraded to sp2
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19:53:56  <Wolf01> then that installer required the framework 1.0, maybe now it requires the 2.0 and is available the 3.0 to install
19:54:41  <Wolf01> just download autopatcher xp and you shouldn't have problems of wga
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19:55:33  <graeme> thats what you want
19:56:03  <glx> needs wga ;)
19:56:07  <graeme> doesnt
19:56:17  <graeme> i did it a few weeks ago
19:56:19  <glx> Validation Required
19:56:42  <graeme> ahh, og yeah. where did i get it from then?
19:56:52  <graeme> its available somewhere
19:57:10  <Wolf01> <-
19:58:36  <graeme> or a direct link to the file Knew it was about
19:59:08  <graeme> google is your freind
19:59:19  <kaan> you could use this too:
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20:09:40  * dihedral appreciates the work all the devs do...
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20:14:45  <Wolf01> 'night
20:14:48  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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20:19:15  <UndernotBuilder> whats the status of high water?
20:21:08  <kaan> i think the tide is about to turn :P
20:22:10  <Touqen> Ugh.
20:22:25  <UndernotBuilder> OH NOES
20:22:26  * Touqen throws kaan and his puns in the garbage.
20:22:27  <kaan> ok, il ladmit that was bad
20:23:15  <kaan> ok then, ill admit that it was really bad
20:23:16  <UndernotBuilder> If jasperthecat1 looks into the revision 10000 topic and looks into the new feature, he will go berserker!
20:23:17  <Bjarni> could be worse
20:23:36  <Bjarni> however right now I can't think of anything worse though :p
20:23:44  <kaan> hehe
20:23:57  <kaan> you are right, i cant think of anything worse
20:25:09  <kaan> so now we have established that i hold the record for the wors humor here :)
20:25:15  <kaan> *worst
20:26:17  <Sacro> UndernotBuilder: he's found IRC
20:26:31  <UndernotBuilder> OH NOES
20:26:41  <Sacro> yeah, he has been in #tycoon on quakenet
20:26:44  <peter1138> oh highways, lol
20:26:51  <UndernotBuilder> one time I did a joke and named myself jasperthecat1
20:27:09  <UndernotBuilder> but better not make it remember to Rubidium :)
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20:35:22  <TrueBrain> <- who has the guts? :)
20:35:53  <Sacro> TrueBrain: there's no way i can get a passport in 6 days :p
20:36:03  <TrueBrain> :) Poor you ;)
20:36:22  <Rubidium> Sacro: go to the airport and tell that you lost it and need it badly
20:36:36  <Sacro> need what? to go to the netherlands?
20:36:50  <Rubidium> that passport ofcourse
20:37:15  <Sionide> go to the passport office, queue up and get one done on the day...
20:37:23  <Sionide> course you can get one in 6 days... easy.
20:38:34  <Sacro> hmm
20:40:34  <Frostregen__> hmm, would be 461km
20:40:41  *** Frostregen__ is now known as Frostregen
20:41:31  <Frostregen> but...a reason to go to netherlands, besides dope ;)
20:42:16  <peter1138> why do you need a passport to travel within europe these days?
20:42:19  <peter1138> oh yes, terrorism...
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20:43:03  <Zr40> peter1138: what would you need to travel in the USA?
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20:44:00  <peter1138> a gun
20:48:23  <Sacro> some pasties
20:49:02  <ln-> flights about 700 euros on this short notice, ... i think that's a bit much.
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20:50:33  <ln-> or even below 400 on another company, but still a bit expensiveish.
20:51:34  <Sacro> i think i can get the ferry from Hull to somewhere
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21:18:01  <Sacro> hmm £108 for a same day passport
21:20:18  <Touqen> Heh. Same day passports. It takes weeks to get a passport in the US.
21:20:22  <orudge> Hmm
21:20:28  <orudge>,-95.677068&sspn=49.624204,82.265625&ie=UTF8&cd=1&saddr=N%C3%B8rup,+Vejle,+Danmark&daddr=Leiden,+Sydholland,+Nederlandene&z=7&om=1
21:20:38  * orudge isn't sure he quite wants to go on a drive in foreignland just yet, though
21:21:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r10006 /trunk/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Fix (FS#362): allow different signal types on one tile
21:21:32  <Sacro> orudge: you'd go via hull?
21:21:39  <Sacro> glx: orly? what types?
21:22:09  <orudge> Sacro: Google would send me via Dover
21:22:14  * Rubidium waits for glx' image
21:22:25  <Sacro> orudge: strange. i'd go down to Hull, then over to Rotterdam
21:22:30  <glx>
21:22:32  <Sacro> or maybe via newcaslte
21:22:40  <orudge> Google evidently doesn't know the Hull route
21:22:58  <orudge> but, hm
21:23:01  * orudge tries doing it manually
21:23:13  <orudge> nope
21:23:16  <orudge> it still sends me via England
21:24:35  <Sacro> mmm
21:24:40  <Sacro> that seems a longer route
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21:25:03  <orudge> Christ
21:25:06  <orudge> £271 return with a car
21:25:10  <Sacro> what?
21:25:13  <orudge> with this one web site
21:25:16  <orudge> from Hull to Rotterdam
21:25:38  <orudge> £246 without a car
21:25:43  * orudge thinks not, somehow
21:25:56  <orudge> driving would be hypothetically possible, but at such short notice, and without any experience driving on the right
21:25:57  <orudge> I think I might not
21:26:01  <orudge> The Dutchies should come to us ;0
21:26:02  <orudge> ;)
21:26:48  <Bjarni>  <orudge> ... without any experience driving on the right <-- that's actually a minor issue if you are mentally prepared for it
21:26:53  <Sacro> orudge: £112 return
21:26:54  <orudge> I imagine it won't be too bad
21:26:58  <Bjarni> I mean I wouldn't mind driving in the left side
21:27:09  <orudge> I've been "driven" on the right, in the US and Canada
21:27:13  <orudge> and I'm sure it wouldn't be too bad
21:27:16  <orudge> just a bit unnerving at first I guess
21:27:45  <Bjarni> just remember that you have to go the other way around the roundabouts ;)
21:28:27  <Sacro> hehe
21:28:36  <Bjarni> that's  actually an issue
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21:29:24  <Bjarni> people are prepared to drive in the other side (compared to what they are used to), but they aren't prepared to go the other way around roundabouts for some reason
21:29:26  <Sacro> yes i know
21:29:31  <Bjarni> many accidents happens that way
21:29:31  <orudge> Mmh, yes, roundabouts and suchlike would be fun
21:29:34  <Sacro> my dad got crashed into by a danish firetruck
21:29:46  <Bjarni> where?
21:29:50  <Sacro> Hull
21:29:58  <orudge> why would a Danish fire truck be here?
21:29:59  <Sacro> on a roundabout
21:30:03  <Bjarni> wtf would a Danish firetruck do in Hull?
21:30:03  <Sacro> orudge: there was a convention
21:30:08  <Sacro> err
21:30:10  <Sacro> Bjarni even
21:30:51  <orudge> er, both of us
21:30:52  <orudge> ;)
21:31:00  <Bjarni> firetrucks are used to other cars moving out of the way
21:31:03  <Bjarni> :p
21:31:13  <Sacro> it didn't have its siren on
21:31:19  <Bjarni> still
21:31:24  <Sacro> it scuffed up on the roundabout and hit him
21:31:52  <Bjarni> I guess he just left the ferry
21:32:05  <Bjarni> could be his first British roundabout
21:32:18  <Sacro> no, he was going back to the ferry
21:32:26  <Bjarni> bonehead
21:33:38  * Bjarni remembers when he was driving a car with the wheel in the "wrong" side
21:33:56  <Bjarni> it took a bit to get used to switching gear with the other arm
21:33:57  <Sacro> the wheel should be on the right
21:34:08  <Sacro> and change gears with the left hand
21:34:13  <Bjarni> why?
21:34:18  <Bjarni> are you left handed?
21:34:25  <Sacro> nope
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21:35:14  <Bjarni> actually driving in the right side makes more sense because then the hand brake and gear are controlled by the right arm
21:35:49  <orudge> er
21:35:58  <orudge> but the right hand is dominant
21:36:01  <orudge> so that would be preferrable, would it not?
21:36:20  <Bjarni> yeah, that's my point
21:36:27  <orudge> oh
21:36:33  <orudge> but
21:36:37  <orudge> [22:35:14] <Bjarni> actually driving in the right side makes more sense because then the hand brake and gear are controlled by the right arm
21:36:46  <orudge> when you're driving on the right side of the car, you control the gears, etc, with your left arm...
21:36:57  <Sacro> orudge: you don't have to
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21:37:12  <orudge> Remind me not to be in the car if you're using your other arm :p
21:37:14  <orudge> hand
21:37:33  <Bjarni> I meant right side of the road
21:37:39  <Bjarni> so you are in the left side of the car
21:37:59  <ln-> the left hand is for holding the cell phone, the right one for tuning the radio. questions?
21:38:12  <Bjarni> Trains has the same issue, but it's more severe because when driving in the right, the driver is in the right (to see signals) and in order not to hit the fireman, the fireman would be on the left. Shoveling coal when standing in the left makes him hold the shovel right for righthanded people
21:38:42  <Bjarni> ln-: yeah... where is your 3rd arm to control the air condition?
21:39:02  <glx> the left hand to open the window :)
21:39:19  <Bjarni> when a train is driving in the left side, the driver is in the left, the fireman is in the right and has to hold the shovel like a left handed person
21:39:33  <Bjarni> so it really matters which side steam locomotives drive in
21:39:56  *** Osai^2 is now known as Osai
21:40:10  <glx> locomotives drive on left side here
21:40:16  * Bjarni tried left hand coal shoveling
21:40:20  <Bjarni> it's tricky :s
21:41:10  <Bjarni> yeah, I know several countries uses left side driving for their railroads... I don't know why though
21:41:41  <Bjarni> since the only reason to pick a side is the placement of the fireman and that would tell the railroads to use the right hand side
21:42:24  <Bjarni> so I guess it could be a random pick by engineers, who never planned on staying on a locomotive and didn't care for the engine crew
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21:43:51  <Bjarni> well, today it doesn't matter if a train drives on the left or right side as the )%(%#EUR%(EUR railroads fired all the firemen
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21:45:50  <glx> firemen are not needed in electric loco
21:46:59  <Bjarni> they are on GG1
21:47:09  <Bjarni> heating steam boiler
21:47:32  <Bjarni> funny enough they are needed for electric engines, but not diesel o_O
21:48:08  <Bjarni> the heating steam boiler on diesel engines burns diesel fuel, but I don't know who adds water to it as needed
21:48:24  <Bjarni> <--- hahahaha
21:49:53  <ln-> london underground drives on the right, and i think normal trains too.
21:50:33  <mikegrb> hmmm speaking of fire trucks we had an engine here that was on the way to a motor vehicle accident with extrication they rolled the truck
21:50:43  *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
21:50:47  <mikegrb> they ended up having to be extricated!
21:50:58  <mikegrb> their tools were on the drivers side which was in the air
21:51:08  <mikegrb> so their own tools were used to cut them out!
21:51:26  <Bjarni> sounds nasty
21:54:26  * stillunknown wonders why train collision checking is still done every tick
21:54:48  <Bjarni> reminds me of the story. Almost all the firemen were gathered to a party and one of the few, who wasn't there came running in and yelled "the fire station is on fire!!!". They laughed because they thought it was a joke, but it turned out that he was repairing a broken diesel pump and it leaked diesel on to the floor and his tools created a spark.... they had to send firetrucks from another town and when they arrived, it was too late
21:54:48  <Bjarni>  to save anything
21:54:54  <Rubidium> maybe because they could collide every tick?
21:55:54  <stillunknown> At the expense of two bits per tile, it can be greatly reduced.
21:55:55  <Bjarni> imagine if it was a day event thing. Then theoretically two trains could pass each other if they are short and they were driving fast enough
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21:56:35  <Jerub> stillunknown: 2 bits?
21:56:51  <mikegrb> yeah, there was an artile in one of the firefighter magazines about a station somewhere in .us about 8 months back
21:56:52  <Bjarni> stillunknown: explain
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21:57:05  <mikegrb> on the way back to their station they got dispatched to a smoke in the area call
21:57:07  <Bjarni> mikegrb: it was in Denmark and it was years ago
21:57:21  <Jerub> stillunknown: two trains can travel through a tile and not hit each other..
21:57:41  <stillunknown> Bjarni: On tileentry activate a bit, disable when leaving.
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21:57:47  <mikegrb> as they got closer they reported that the smoke seemed to becoming from very near their station
21:58:00  <mikegrb> then dispatch got the automatic fire alarm
21:58:00  <stillunknown> Once a second train enters, activate the second bit, the check each tick for collisions.
21:58:07  <mikegrb> Bjarni: different incident ;)
21:58:17  <stillunknown> s/the/then
21:58:38  <Rubidium> stillunknown: and when there are 3 trains on one tile?
21:58:45  <Rubidium> or even four
21:58:49  <Moriarty> The world generator seems very broken in nightly 10002
21:58:56  <Jerub> stillunknown: that way you have to iterate over everh tile to find the tiles with two bits set.
21:59:16  <Jerub> stillunknown: that's a much harder operation than iterating over each train you know..
21:59:19  <Bjarni> two on bits could indicate "more than one" and turning off the 2nd one would need to verify that the tile only contains one train
21:59:23  <Moriarty> i.e. the OTTD hangs - Both terragenesis or Original break.
21:59:34  <Jerub> (with 2 bits you can count to 3)
22:00:24  <Bjarni> <Jerub> stillunknown: that way you have to iterate over everh tile to find the tiles with two bits set. <-- no. For the train, if v->tile(both set) {check for collision();}
22:00:36  <Rubidium> Jerub: but there can be up to 4 trains on a single tile
22:01:02  <stillunknown> I once did a less than perfect implementation, to see if it gave the desired performance improvement.
22:01:05  <staniel|desktop> how can there be 4?
22:01:28  <stillunknown> bridges maybe?
22:01:29  <Jerub> Bjarni: okay... but you'd still have to iterate over all the other trains to see which one it could be.
22:01:36  <stillunknown> ignore that
22:01:48  <glx> I can see 3 with bridges, but where is the fourth?
22:01:52  <Jerub> Rubidium: come to think of it, if yoi were really clever, I reckon you could get 5 or 6 :)
22:02:08  <staniel|desktop> ahh, maybe tunnels?
22:02:15  <Rubidium> rail tiles with 2 pieces of track in the upper/lower or left/right
22:02:17  <Bjarni> <Jerub> Bjarni: okay... but you'd still have to iterate over all the other trains to see which one it could be. <-- yeah, but it can skip all the trains that are on tiles with only one train (that's usually most of them)
22:02:24  <Jerub> well, you can quite easily arrange a 4 way head on.
22:02:30  <Rubidium> and two trains on each side
22:02:34  <Jerub> X some track, send 4 trains in to meet in the middle.
22:03:01  <stillunknown> But the penalty for 3 or more trains, will not occur often.
22:03:07  <Bjarni> <stillunknown> I once did a less than perfect implementation, to see if it gave the desired performance improvement. <-- and what did the profiling tell you?
22:03:23  <stillunknown> It went down the list a long way.
22:03:46  <stillunknown> Forgot the exact numbers.
22:04:04  <Jerub> 5 is easy, you park a MJS250 in the middle...
22:04:17  <Jerub> dunno how easy 6 would be...
22:04:57  <Bjarni> sure the collision detection is used more rarely, but did you include the checking and setting of the bits in your benchmark? We want this to be a overall speed improvement ;)
22:05:02  <Rubidium> first park 4 trains on the left, right, top and bottom track pieces, then let a 4 way head on occur ;)
22:05:12  <stillunknown> Bjarni: actually i had trouble finding it in the profiling
22:06:00  <Jerub> Rubidium: you can make it a 5 way by planting a MJS250 in the dead center first :)
22:06:17  <Rubidium> 9 on a tile... hmmm
22:06:28  <stillunknown> But in real life, how often would you have more than 2 trains on a tile?
22:06:39  <Bjarni> rarely
22:06:45  <Rubidium> only when you crash trains
22:06:50  <Jerub> stillunknown: usually in collisions...
22:07:56  <stillunknown> So the penalty for iterating over all trains is probably small, compared to checking collisions each tick.
22:08:13  <Bjarni> I like the idea of having a train counter. 2 bits would tell "0, 1, 2, more than 2". Special actions would take place in the last case
22:08:15  <stillunknown> (in the case of 3 or more trains)
22:08:59  <Bjarni> 3 trains or more is so rare that we don't have to optimise that case. 1 or 2 happens often enough to optimise those
22:09:35  <Bjarni> now the question is: can we find two bits that's always free on all rail tiles?
22:09:52  <stillunknown> m6
22:10:17  <stillunknown> bit 2 and 3 for example
22:10:46  <stillunknown> <-- This was the crude implementation i did a "long" time ago
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22:13:58  <Moriarty> [23:01:01] Moriarty: The world generator seems very broken in nightly 10002
22:13:58  <Moriarty>  i.e. OTTD hangs - Both terragenesis and Original break.
22:14:11  <glx> works for me
22:14:22  <Moriarty> Hmmm - Definately broken here - winxp
22:14:51  <Moriarty> It shows funny things too - the mouse cursor looks like a grass tile
22:14:55  * Bjarni compiles 10002
22:15:15  <Moriarty> A snow tile even - it changed at least once when I just tested it.
22:15:50  <Bjarni> stillunknown: well, this idea looks really interesting. I didn't benchmark the collision detection. How severe is the CPU usage for it right now?
22:15:56  <Moriarty> Hmm - turns out it was a grf (the snow in temporate grf)
22:16:14  <Moriarty> Worked fine with the previous copy of OTTD I used (can't recall rev - deleted now)
22:17:10  <stillunknown> Bjarni: I haven't run openttd in a while, but looking at the code (which seems the same), it's safe to say that for a train only network it's one of the top consumers.
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22:18:41  <stillunknown> I just happened to get a flyspray mail about a patch i once submitted, and suddenly remembered this.
22:21:44  <stillunknown>
22:21:45  <Bjarni> are you up to do some performance tests so we can get some real numbers to decide if it's worth 2 bits?
22:21:57  <stillunknown> I wrote this back then:
22:21:58  <stillunknown> Under normal curcomstances the CheckTrainCollision() function is not called, testing suggest quite an improvement (60% vs 50% cpu usage on a map with 900-1000 trains).
22:23:11  <stillunknown> But i have to go to bed now, i will set up up for some tests when i have the time.
22:23:22  <glx> we need a real performance comparison, using the same savegame for a long run
22:23:41  <stillunknown> I used the same savegame.
22:23:55  <Bjarni> for the same period of time?
22:24:37  <stillunknown> Yes, i watched the cpu beheaviour in top, because it would fluctuate initially iirc.
22:24:56  <stillunknown> But i really must sleep now ;-)
22:25:26  <glx> cpu usage in top is not a real comparison I think
22:25:59  <stillunknown> Profiling (and debugging) has one issue, it adds overhead, which has scale issues.
22:26:20  <stillunknown> I wanted to know the actual effect on a game as well.
22:26:29  <stillunknown> really gone now.
22:26:47  <Bjarni> bye stillunknown
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22:26:56  <glx> gn stillunknown
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22:55:14  <kaan> goodnight all :)
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23:14:53  <Sacro>
23:14:59  <Sacro> thoguh Bjarni isn't actually dutch
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23:32:23  <Bjarni> Sacro: that depends... if you don't block the road for anybody, then yes
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23:32:43  <Bjarni> however
23:33:00  <Bjarni> it's not particular safe traffic to do so xD
23:33:19  <Bjarni> anyway
23:33:21  <Bjarni> goodnight
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23:33:34  <Sionide> so
23:33:41  <Sionide> the next big thing in ottd is gonna be road traffic
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