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Log for #openttd on 23rd June 2007:
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00:00:09  <eekee> comments in most unix-y config files must have looked funny
00:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> i know that i never ever used the ~ character until win95 came out
00:01:15  <eekee> I remember liking the old ISO layout, but don't recall much now. I remember : was next to ; rather than being shift-; , was much nicer for using vi, lol
00:01:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> here ; is shift-, and : i shift-.
00:01:52  <eekee> I think ' was shift-; though, which wasn't so nice
00:02:02  <eekee> ah yes
00:02:16  <eekee> here it's < and > respectively
00:02:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> > is shift-<
00:02:57  *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@82-43-58-81.cable.ubr04.croy.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
00:03:08  <eekee> oh yes, that's what the \| key of a UK keyboard becomes with US layout
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00:03:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> the worst part for programmers is usually that the {[]} keys have to be used with AltGr
00:04:10  <eekee> ack!
00:04:27  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't have a problem with that actually
00:04:54  <eekee> well it's alright if you're handling inputs properly anyway
00:05:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> the worst problem with the american layout, besides the y-z switch is that you need shift to get +
00:05:44  <eekee> yeah, not keen on that. Another thing the ISO layout fixed
00:06:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> here the +/*/~ key is next to the return key (normal/shift/altgr)
00:07:03  <eekee> #~ here, & a little bit of a nuisance.
00:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> and the -/_ key is next to the right shift
00:07:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> no, + is above #
00:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> the # key is really annoying there
00:08:05  *** lolman [~lolman@cpc3-leds2-0-0-cust55.leed.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
00:08:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> it used to be above the return key (with a shortened backspace)
00:08:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> and the return was bigger
00:08:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> and now i always hit both keys
00:08:48  <eekee> The last kb I had put #~ up by the backsace, making the backspace single-key size & the return a full size. That was a nuisance, but I don't particularly like #~ by return either, lol
00:08:54  <eekee> heh
00:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't use backspace that often, it does not need to be supersized
00:09:40  <eekee> I liked the ST layout, had #~ on the far side of the right shift, but the whole kb was wider iirc
00:09:45  <eekee> I do!
00:10:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i probably use 'e' far more often than backspace...
00:10:22  <Eddi|zuHause2> and that is not supersized either...
00:10:46  <eekee> biggest annoyance I find is insert & delete, particularly with Gtk+ 2.x which gives no clue as to whether you're in insert or overwrite mode, which steenks!
00:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> i think 'e' is used far more often in german than in english
00:11:06  <eekee> er, e is like, under your fingers, backspace is further otu. That's myy problem with it
00:12:17  <eekee> yy.. I think this keyboard has a little bounce. Maybe why I stopped using it; that & it predates Windows keys :)
00:12:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't have that kind of problem...
00:12:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> my problem is much more that i hit return instead of backspace...
00:12:55  <eekee> heh, I did that more with the smaller backspace ^^;
00:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> get one with tux keys :)
00:13:38  <eekee> Eddi|zuHause2: would love to :D but I'm gonna get a unicomp terminal emulator instead. Gettign url...
00:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> have you seen those logitech keyboards that have a supersized del key, and place the ins key totally wrong?
00:14:29  <eekee> http://www.pckeyboard.com/emulator.html
00:14:40  <eekee> nope, but I'd like to
00:15:36  <eekee> I very briefly was able to use an actual IBM terminal kb of the same layout & construction of that unicomp kb. Very nice :D
00:17:07  <benc_> kind of ironic that keyboards styled after ones from two decades ago are so much better
00:17:10  <eekee> http://steampunkworkshop.com/keyboard.shtml That's what I want to mod the unicomp kb to, or something like it :D
00:17:21  <benc_> than the micro-sized, media-enhanced stuff oems spit out :)
00:17:36  <eekee> *shivers* yes...
00:17:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> http://www.daskeyboard.com/
00:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> :p
00:18:00  <eekee> although I find I don't mind laprtop kbs.
00:18:27  <benc_> using an ext kb with a laptop is just too clunky
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00:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause2> i usually hate laptop keyboards for their misplacement of special keys like the arrows
00:19:12  <eekee> flat :) Cherry have a good rep, but afaik only the IBM design Unicomp licensed has a curved base so the keys actually go down at different angles
00:19:15  <benc_> i have a particular bizarre laptop kb, i think toshiba engineers rolled dice to figure out which keys they'd arbitrarily swap
00:19:17  <eekee> oh yes...
00:19:22  <eekee> LOL
00:19:52  <eekee> I have an old iBook. With Apple key bindings it's not too bad, but it's a US layout, lol
00:22:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> you don't get US layout problems with "das keyboard" :)
00:22:50  <eekee> heheheheheh
00:23:33  <eekee> Abble did an iBook with blank white keys. It scares me, lol, as does Das Keyboard :D
00:23:37  <eekee> *Apple
00:23:51  <mikegrb> I have an ibook with blank keys
00:24:01  <mikegrb> well it did have blank keys, from wear
00:24:14  <eekee> hehe
00:24:20  <mikegrb> got a new macbook and wife made me buy a new keyboard for the ibook before giving it to her ;)
00:24:35  <eekee> mine's not that far gone, one careful lady owner before I got hold of it, lawl
00:24:43  <eekee> heh ^^
00:25:57  *** KritiK [Maxim@ppp83-237-102-44.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:26:14  <eekee> It's funny that the Das Keyboard page should mention mechanical keyswitches, because all the cheap rubish kbs I've had in the last few years have ahd them
00:26:27  *** Markkisen [~hestporr@h22n1fls301o1037.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:26:30  <eekee> (not Cherry switches, obviously)
00:27:04  <Jerub> there was once an apple ibook keyboard made by fingerworks
00:27:20  <eekee> who?
00:27:25  <Jerub> fingerworks.com
00:27:29  <eekee> *click*
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00:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> i have thought about buying a "das keyboard", but it does not seem to come in a wireless version :(
00:28:08  <eekee> ooh, looks rubbery o.o;
00:28:17  *** SmatZ [~root@a40-prg1-5-107.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
00:28:41  <Jerub> eekee: it's not rubbery, it's a flat touch sensitive surface, like a trackpad on a laptop
00:28:55  <eekee> ah! hmmmm
00:29:03  <Jerub> I have a touchstream lp at work.
00:29:15  *** Hendikins [~wolfox@CPE-121-209-210-229.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
00:29:15  <eekee> was it hard, like a laptop trackpad?
00:29:24  <eekee> that would give me rsi, lol
00:30:16  *** DJ_Mirage [~sexybigge@biggetje.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: www.sexybiggetje.nl]
00:30:17  <eekee> or.. hmm, I think it would
00:30:41  *** skidd13 [~skidd13@p548A45A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
00:30:46  <Eddi|zuHause2> i hate touchpads on laptops... they are always where i want to put my hands
00:30:59  <eekee> hehe, yeah, they're evil like that
00:31:49  <Hendikins> eekee: Thought you were going back to bed :P
00:31:52  <dihedral> someone here fit with rrdtool?
00:32:32  <Smoovious> NoAI is getting merged into trunk already?!
00:32:38  <dihedral> i would need a rrd database :-)
00:33:02  <eekee> Hendikins: gonna let my dinner go down & have some more to eat.
00:33:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10291 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#920]: double click in town-GUI didn't work as expected
00:33:59  <eekee> my iBook has a "prevent accidental trackpad input" option that works for me, & I've seen a similar option on a Windows laptop
00:34:11  <eekee> what's NoAI?
00:34:54  <Smoovious> it is one of the branches, dedicated to the development of a new AI system, that would be extremely configurable... allowing for different AI's to be used
00:35:01  <eekee> ooh!
00:35:30  <Smoovious> would be cool for different computer players to run different AI's... so they have their own personality. :)
00:35:36  <eekee> yeah :D
00:35:52  <eekee> oh hey, why does turning all news off make the game smoother? (giant map)
00:36:10  <eekee> er, & that's in multiplayer, just as a client
00:36:20  <glx> less things to display
00:36:27  <Smoovious> less to sort
00:36:43  <eekee> *shrug* ok
00:36:46  <Smoovious> that too
00:36:58  <dihedral> a learning ai :-D
00:37:05  <eekee> *wish* :D
00:37:27  <dihedral> set it to record for 3 full games and after that the others will not know who is playing
00:37:34  <Sacro> http://www.b3ta.com/links/Goodbye_Tony_Blair
00:37:39  <dihedral> even chattative?
00:37:47  <eekee> hehehe
00:38:34  <eekee> Silent player B)
00:40:05  <skidd13> why not a cooperative AI for dummy work, eg. balance the number of vehicles on a shared order.
00:41:00  <Smoovious> cuz an AI is supposed to behave in a manner that is comparable to a real player... if a player can't do it, neither  can the AI...
00:41:36  <Smoovious> they aren't meant to compensate for dummies :P
00:41:44  <eekee> :D
00:43:07  <Phazorx> can AI be separated from mane code
00:43:17  <Phazorx> and be connecatbale as virtual player
00:43:54  <Phazorx> i'd love to do logic for that, assuming it will be not integrated into code and can be externalized
00:43:55  <dihedral> what a catchy tune Sacro
00:43:59  <eekee> AI client.. I don't really know the network protocol, but I think so
00:44:46  <Smoovious> from what I understand, you'll be able to design your own AI's for it... I think it is  based on squirrel, but I don't know
00:44:57  <glx> it is
00:45:12  <Smoovious> so it is. :D
00:46:39  <Sacro> dihedral: yes, most people think that
00:48:33  <Sacro> somehow 660MB of ram is being used
00:48:37  <Sacro> how do i find out where its all gone :\
00:49:07  <Sacro> :o
00:49:16  <Sacro> top has 1777172k used
00:49:19  <Sacro> thats like
00:49:26  <Sacro> 1.7(ish) gig
00:49:28  <dihedral> is there any data, that is consistent during one game ?
00:49:49  <eekee> size of the map :D
00:50:19  <dihedral> *one* game
00:50:23  <dihedral> not *all* games
00:50:41  <dihedral> sorry - my bad- did not emphasis correctly before
00:51:23  <Smoovious> type of scenario
00:51:24  <eekee> Well, diferent games may have different sized maps. I thnk you're looking for some kind of key you can use to ID a game, right?
00:51:45  <dihedral> data that is different from one newgame to another newgame!
00:52:11  <Smoovious> not sure, but... is the random seed value saved?
00:52:36  <dihedral> it is at least not sent
00:52:37  <Smoovious> wouldn't be perfect, but it would be unique enough to be practical
00:52:44  <dihedral> but yes - random seed would do it
00:53:00  <Smoovious> it has to be sent... or the other players wouldn't sync
00:53:21  <dihedral> ah - yes
00:53:28  <dihedral> perhaps with a tcp connection
00:53:36  <dihedral> but i only got a udp connection
00:53:44  <Smoovious> probably when the game data is sent
00:54:03  <Smoovious> how do you get udp only and not tcp? it is the same connection
00:54:55  <dihedral> http://openttdlib.dihedral.de/example2.php
00:55:08  <dihedral> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=32659
00:55:13  <dihedral> that is how :-D
00:55:13  <Phazorx> eekee: emulated client
00:55:18  <Phazorx> it can be local as well
00:55:37  <eekee> Phazorx: yeah
00:55:45  <Smoovious> well, sorry, but I'm not really motivated enough to chase/retype the url's...
00:55:51  <Smoovious> no browser on this computer
00:56:14  <Phazorx> it would be nice to have global KB for AI too
00:56:27  <Smoovious> KB?
00:56:39  <Phazorx> knowledge base
00:56:45  <Phazorx> studying more promissing moves
00:57:02  <dihedral> smovious: just remember OpenTTDLib and search the forums next time
00:57:43  <Smoovious> me, I'm planning on writing an  intentionally bad AI... not one that plays stupidly, like the legacy AI, but just plays bad... :)
00:58:00  <dihedral> lol
00:58:24  <glx> 'getseed' in the console gives the seed
00:58:26  <dihedral> i shall write an ai that will watch my servers for ai's that are playing badly and kick them
00:58:45  <eekee> haha!
00:58:47  <dihedral> glx: that still does not send it udp to OpenTTDLib
00:58:56  <glx> right
00:59:05  <Smoovious> uh  huh
00:59:25  <dihedral> unless of course there are tcp queries that can be done without me having to be a client
00:59:40  <dihedral> and i doubt that !
01:01:08  <eekee> how is server name, # of companies etc retrieved before connection?
01:01:43  <dihedral> udp
01:01:51  <dihedral> 1. query master server
01:01:59  <dihedral> 2. get ip's and ports
01:02:01  <eekee> O.o ok
01:02:03  <dihedral> 2. query those
01:02:09  <dihedral> all udp!!
01:02:12  <dihedral> afaik
01:02:23  <Smoovious> doncha mean 3. ?
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01:02:38  <eekee> seems wierd to use udp for small quantities of non-time-critical data, but what do I know
01:02:41  <dihedral> i said *as far as i know* :-D
01:02:57  <Smoovious> 2 2's?
01:03:04  <dihedral> eekee: usually most game data like that is done udp
01:03:15  <Smoovious> must have gone to an american school...
01:03:16  <dihedral> i dont know anything bejond that
01:03:26  <eekee> *shrug* ok.
01:03:31  <dihedral> that is why i had issues with the 16 bit integers today
01:03:39  <dihedral> :-D
01:03:46  <dihedral> actually 4 bit
01:03:50  <eekee> 16-bit now? heh
01:03:54  <dihedral> hell i should know 3
01:03:56  <dihedral> na
01:03:59  <dihedral> just kidding
01:04:05  <eekee> :d
01:04:27  <dihedral> Smoovious: i was having issues with getting php to handle 64bit integers... just to fill you in
01:04:55  * Smoovious nods.
01:10:17  * eekee sleeps
01:18:28  <Belugas> http://devs.openttd.org/~belugas/Industries/newindustry_gui1.png
01:18:31  <Belugas> http://devs.openttd.org/~belugas/Industries/newindustry_gui2.png
01:18:34  <Belugas> http://devs.openttd.org/~belugas/Industries/newindustry_gui3.png
01:18:39  <Belugas> I like it :D
01:18:48  <Belugas> although not finished...
01:19:34  *** XeryusTC [~irc@cc480157-b.sneek1.fr.home.nl] has quit [Quit: Solong, and thanks for all the fish.]
01:19:56  <Ailure> hehe
01:20:00  <mikegrb> I hate it.
01:20:05  <Ailure> wait
01:20:06  <Ailure> holy shit
01:20:08  <Ailure> is that openTTD?
01:20:11  <mikegrb> (because it is not in my copy)
01:20:19  <Ailure> :o
01:20:26  <Ailure> You should post a compersation with TTDpatch
01:20:41  <Ailure> I forgot how it looked like, but I think it was kinda similar
01:20:45  <Ailure> just without that coloured square
01:20:46  <Belugas> it is ottd indeed :)
01:20:52  <Ailure> nice
01:21:08  <Belugas> mikegrb, what dislikes you in those screenies?
01:21:09  <Ailure> The square thing is a neat addition though
01:21:18  <mikegrb> (because it is not in my copy) <-- Belugas, this
01:21:26  <Belugas> lol!!!
01:21:29  <mikegrb> <3
01:21:54  <Belugas> it will...
01:22:13  <Belugas> Ailure, the gui is a bit like ttdpatch's one,
01:22:25  <Belugas> but i discovered afterward it was based on the same idea.
01:22:33  <Ailure> ah
01:22:38  <Belugas> although, mine is resizeable, ttdp not
01:22:55  <Ailure> heh
01:23:00  <Ailure> due to the flexible GUI code?
01:23:01  <Belugas> mine highlights the selected indiustru, ttdp not
01:23:13  <Belugas> yeah quite a bit more flexible...
01:23:18  <Ailure> heh
01:23:24  <Ailure> I recall reading about such internal changes before.
01:24:14  <Ailure> Nothing that users notice right away, but it makes for faster and easier devolopment for programmers :p
01:24:33  <Belugas> Recently?  yo must be referencing the cpp_gui branch then...
01:24:38  <Ailure> ah
01:24:40  <Ailure> well
01:24:47  <Ailure> for some itme ago I mean
01:25:02  <Belugas> or maybe the widget branch?  a while ago
01:25:05  <Ailure> at least I could swear seeing such changes in the trunk log
01:25:05  <Ailure> yeah
01:25:07  <Ailure> the widget thing
01:25:24  <Belugas> yeah... that was quite a challenge :)
01:25:48  <Ailure> Well, it's worth it if it saves future headache
01:25:49  <Ailure> :)
01:27:02  <glx> and now we can even use double click for some things
01:28:03  <Ailure> yeah
01:28:24  <Ailure> only annoyance I have with the UI
01:28:32  <Ailure> is the 'hidden' stuff
01:28:46  <Ailure> like holding down ctrl while cloning to make it share vehicle orders
01:29:06  <Ailure> While I know quite well how to do that, it's sometimes a bad idea to hide features behind "shortcuts"
01:29:13  <glx> right click tells you about that
01:29:16  <Ailure> or hotkeys
01:29:26  <Ailure> heh
01:29:27  <Ailure> it does
01:30:02  <glx> (for ctrl stuff not for shortcuts)
01:30:45  <Ailure> heh
01:30:49  <Ailure> I also like how far you can zoom out now
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01:31:12  <Ailure> makes the minimap obsolote sometimes :p
01:31:18  <Ailure> well, I still use it for finding industries heh
01:32:21  <skidd13> @availible dev: I fixed the issues of the random town layout (http://bugs.openttd.org/task/897) peter1138 listed. Is it OK now?
01:35:54  * Belugas reads
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01:38:38  <Belugas> it seems the comment i added is no longer required, with "CheckSavegameVersion(69)" :)
01:38:56  <Smoovious> comment?
01:39:16  <Belugas> on skidd13's patch...
01:39:29  <Belugas> i wrote that little part (iirc)
01:39:39  <skidd13> yup
01:39:41  <Belugas> but not as it is right now
01:39:59  <Belugas> peter1138 make skidd13 changed it in a more ... simple way
01:40:49  <Smoovious> as long  as you're peeking at stuff... I posted a real tiny patch FS#914
01:42:09  <Belugas> saw that today, yes
01:42:23  <Belugas> i kinda remember it has been discussed too
01:42:29  <Belugas> in a positive way ;)
01:43:16  <Smoovious> damn
01:43:25  <Smoovious> gonna ruin my track record
01:43:37  <Smoovious> lemme re-do it so it goes way against  coding style
01:44:25  <Smoovious> btw, spending tonight working on getting my chat window patch current again... and changed... had some ideas to  do a couple things differently on it
01:44:43  <Smoovious> and just gonna start over on my subsidies one
01:44:51  * dihedral is amazingly tired and will get to bed now
01:44:58  <Smoovious> wave
01:45:07  * dihedral waves back
01:45:22  <dihedral> it is terrible when gravity is experienced with eye-lids
01:45:31  <dihedral> Belugas how are you doing?
01:45:40  <dihedral> happy weekend up ahead?
01:45:49  <skidd13> damned late here too... nearly 4am.... night
01:46:21  <Smoovious> I just use gravity to tell me which way I should pour the milk in my cap'n crunch
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01:47:13  <Jerub> I've gotta say, the most annoying thing about long trains (20+ carriages) is how long they spend at 61km/h leaving depots
01:47:20  <Belugas> dihedral, 3 days long we yeah :
01:47:21  <Belugas> :)
01:47:25  <Belugas> lot of time to rest ;)
01:47:45  <dihedral> yeah... if used to rest :-D
01:48:05  <dihedral> Smoovious: your patch: +			case WKC_F1: case WKC_PAUSE: ToolbarPauseClick(w); break;
01:48:19  <dihedral> case something: case something ??
01:48:51  <dihedral> i have no idea
01:48:55  <dihedral> just looks odd :-)
01:49:15  <dihedral> yeah - forget it...
01:49:15  <glx> dihedral: we use that at many places
01:49:34  <Belugas> going to bed.  see you soon
01:49:37  <dihedral> i expected stuff like that to strech over 2 lines
01:49:51  <dihedral> enjoy your sleep in Belugas
01:50:03  <dihedral> too tired to think straight
01:50:31  <dihedral> not a good idea to be looking at code when i cannot even look out of my eyes!
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01:54:23  <TrueBrain> pompiedom
01:54:35  <Sacro> don't you people sleep?
01:54:43  <TrueBrain> nope
01:54:53  <Sacro> fair enoguh
01:55:04  <Smoovious> <dihedral> case something: case something ??  <--- yeah, but it matched  identical to the other one in there, so  thought it best to stay consistent
01:55:57  <Smoovious> Sacro... does passing out count as sleep?
01:56:44  <Sacro> Smoovious: depends
01:58:57  <TrueBrain> I am bored
01:59:04  <TrueBrain> we no longer have small bugs
01:59:05  <TrueBrain> very annoying
01:59:55  <Smoovious> :(
02:00:09  <TrueBrain> so go and find some!
02:00:54  <Sacro> TrueBrain: fix pbs
02:01:11  <dihedral> lol
02:01:14  <TrueBrain> to fix something, it needs to be there in the first place
02:01:18  <dihedral> yeah - that goes through as "small"
02:01:25  <dihedral> oh
02:01:31  <dihedral> fix the lack thereof
02:01:36  <TrueBrain> give me a 16 bit _m8, and you have your PBS
02:02:10  <Sacro> why do my trains slow down *every* time they hit a corner
02:02:13  <Smoovious> on the helistation, if  a heli is coming out of the depot to a pad,  the other helis  there  wait  til the depot heli parks on a pad  before taking off
02:02:23  <Smoovious> inertia
02:02:24  <dihedral> what is _m8?
02:02:41  <TrueBrain> something I am making up right now
02:02:42  <Sacro> TrueBrain: add _m8
02:03:01  <dihedral> if you need friends... well - then i dont know
02:03:09  <dihedral> but add_m8 sure sounds like it
02:03:13  <TrueBrain> see, to have PBS, every train needs to leave some data on the rail
02:03:17  <TrueBrain> letting know it was there
02:03:23  <TrueBrain> after that it kind of is a piece of cake
02:03:37  <TrueBrain> as there is a 16bit vehicleID to store
02:03:41  <TrueBrain> I need 16 bit s free :)
02:03:56  <dihedral> mapsize << trainnumber << tiles_with_tracks_on
02:04:02  <glx> isn't there enough space with m7 ?
02:04:12  <TrueBrain> glx: I was just checking that
02:04:14  <TrueBrain> for normal rail there is now
02:04:29  <dihedral> and what is m7?
02:04:31  <Sacro> TrueBrain: all it needs to do is reserve the track with 1 bit
02:04:32  <TrueBrain> for tunnels
02:04:34  <TrueBrain> for bridges
02:04:36  <glx> should be ok for station too I think
02:04:38  <Sacro> well, 1 bit per trackdir
02:04:38  <TrueBrain> Sacro: hahahahahaha
02:05:07  <TrueBrain> glx: I only don't have enough bits for road/rail crossing
02:05:22  <TrueBrain> but as it never can be a junction, it might not be that big of a problem
02:05:32  <TrueBrain> Sacro: just think for a second about your claim
02:05:33  <TrueBrain> just for a sec
02:05:37  * Sacro thinks
02:05:39  <TrueBrain> a train, reserves tiles
02:05:44  <Sacro> yes...
02:05:51  <TrueBrain> but.. how the fuck does he know he is the one reserved them?
02:06:04  <Sacro> cos when the next one asks... its told no
02:06:04  <TrueBrain> if you modify the track, the PF finds an other route
02:06:07  <TrueBrain> and oh dear.....
02:06:09  <Sacro> they already are reserved
02:06:15  <Sacro> *BOOM*
02:06:16  <TrueBrain> yes, but when he asks himself that
02:06:18  <Sacro> just like the old PBS :p
02:06:20  <TrueBrain> he gets too: no!
02:06:43  <Sacro> hmmm
02:06:49  <Sacro> i'm sure thats more complex than is needed
02:07:34  <TrueBrain> but if you store the vehicle ID, you can at least track it for real
02:07:41  <TrueBrain> anyway, that would be my intake into PBS
02:07:46  <TrueBrain> I am sure others think differently :)
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02:08:28  <glx> an always red system would be nice
02:08:35  <TrueBrain> glx: and I miss 3 bits for stations
02:08:42  <TrueBrain> always red system?
02:08:48  <Sacro> glx: i have got an always red system here
02:09:14  <Sacro> thing is... its *always* red
02:09:21  <TrueBrain> okay, now I am going to ask the very tricky question: how does TTDP do it?
02:09:31  <Sacro> TrueBrain: download their source :p
02:09:43  <Sacro> i still get more amusement from my NOR signals
02:10:03  <glx> I meant default red
02:10:41  <Smoovious> hmm...
02:10:44  <TrueBrain> bah, my way into PBS will fail too :p
02:10:48  <TrueBrain> so, I gave it a spin :)
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02:11:47  <Sacro> http://www.tt-forums.net/files/ottd_psig_167.png
02:11:54  <Smoovious> afk20min
02:12:16  <benc_> how far ahead would trains be reserving track for PBS?
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02:12:50  <Sacro> benc_: hopefully it would depend on its stopping distance
02:13:09  <TrueBrain> Sacro: normally PBS works from signal to signal
02:13:19  <TrueBrain> else it is possible it has to stop in the middle of a PBS blocks
02:13:24  <benc_> ah
02:13:34  <TrueBrain> which can cause 1) deadlocks, 2) is silly, as there are no signals :)
02:13:35  <benc_> sounds like a pretty sparse matrix then
02:13:57  <benc_> might be worth looking into storing track reservations in a tree
02:14:01  <Sacro> TrueBrain: what do you mean?
02:14:11  <dihedral> what happened to the pbs that once was there?
02:14:13  <benc_> (TileIndex, VehicleID) tuples as the key
02:14:24  <TrueBrain> dihedral: it was bugged beyond repair, and nobody cared to fix it
02:14:30  <benc_> er, TileIndex as key, VehicleID as value
02:14:48  <TrueBrain> so we reverted so we could release a stable version, and nobody fixed it to get it back in
02:15:02  <dihedral> right
02:15:44  <TrueBrain> but I think the idea was bugged by design
02:16:16  <Sacro> @openttd commit 3471
02:16:18  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Commit by Darkvater :: r3471 branch/pbs/ (2006-01-29 18:41:39 UTC)
02:16:20  <DorpsGek> Sacro: - Branch PBS and remove it from trunk. Interested people can fix/rewrite it wholly in svn.openttd.org/branch/pbs
02:16:25  <TrueBrain> benc_: checking if a tile is available makes it rather hard
02:16:25  <Sacro> it was a sad day :(
02:16:39  <TrueBrain> Sacro: it depends on your point of view :)
02:16:51  <Sacro> TrueBrain: insane user of PBS
02:17:04  <TrueBrain> Sacro: sure it was sad to see it being removed from trunk, but it did prevent us from releasing any stable version
02:17:09  <benc_> TrueBrain: if the tree is keyed on TileIndex, checking if a tile is available should be O(log n)
02:17:15  <Sacro> TrueBrain: i thought PBS was fine
02:17:18  <TrueBrain> which means we still were in like 0.4.0.1 as latest stable? :)
02:17:20  <Sacro> you just had to know how to use it
02:17:28  <TrueBrain> Sacro: haha :) I define that as unstable :)
02:17:30  <Sacro> wasn't it pre 0.4.0?
02:17:45  <TrueBrain> Sacro: I have applications where you can't press on certain places; advise of helpdesk: don't press there
02:17:57  <TrueBrain> benc_: but yo need to scan all vehicles :)
02:17:57  <Sacro> PBS was fine
02:18:05  <Sacro> just don't build on a junction thats got trains running on it
02:18:24  <TrueBrain> Sacro: the bug-list was longer then my arm, but let's not get into that
02:18:25  <benc_> i don't follow
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02:18:35  <benc_> why scan all vehicles?
02:18:39  <Hendikins> I liked PBS, bug laden as it was.
02:18:39  <TrueBrain> oh, you mean a stand-alone list
02:18:48  <benc_> yes
02:18:53  <TrueBrain> someone should have kept on syncing the pbs branch :)
02:19:06  <Sacro> TrueBrain: me and DaveWorley tried to remerge it
02:19:19  <Sacro> actually, i might give it another go tommorow
02:19:47  <TrueBrain> benc_: hmm, not a bad idea in fact, was it not it takes a lot of memory.. the question is: how much
02:20:00  <TrueBrain> as you also need to store by track-bit for 2 cases
02:20:08  <benc_> also, if you used a map array, wouldn't you need _m8 AND _m9?  one tile can contain two NS or EW tracks
02:20:19  <TrueBrain> (the 2 cases you can have 2 independant tracks that don't cross on a tile)
02:20:25  <TrueBrain> ;)
02:20:33  <TrueBrain> I can store one in existing _m
02:20:37  <TrueBrain> the second doesn't fit indeed
02:20:53  <benc_> oh thats right, vehicleid = 16 bits
02:21:00  <TrueBrain> sad aint it? :)
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02:21:57  <TrueBrain> if only the PF always returned the same route for all PFs, would make it much easier :)
02:23:06  <benc_> could always politely ask players to not create junctions, would solve the whole problem ;)
02:23:14  <TrueBrain> haha :)
02:23:21  <TrueBrain> it indeed solves it all ;)
02:24:19  <TrueBrain> but okay, the other idea is also nice; it aint real, but it is nice: remove all signals, and let trains reserve track in front of them they need to break
02:24:22  <TrueBrain> ;)
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02:25:37  <benc_> oh dear
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02:26:21  <TrueBrain> give an estimate: how much PBS tiles would be needed on a big game? (in % of the tiles)
02:26:33  <benc_> exactly what i was wondering
02:26:52  <TrueBrain> 10%?
02:26:58  <benc_> say 200 trains, signal spacing 4
02:27:16  <benc_> probably less than 10%
02:27:24  <TrueBrain> so..
02:27:28  <benc_> esp on a big map
02:27:55  <TrueBrain> @calc 2048 * 2048 * (16 * 1.1 + 8)
02:27:56  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 107374182.4
02:27:59  <TrueBrain> @calc 2048 * 2048 * (16 * 1.1 + 8) / 1024 / 1024
02:27:59  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 102.4
02:28:09  <TrueBrain> @calc 2048 * 2048 * (16 * 1.1 + 8) / 1024 / 1024 / 8
02:28:10  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 12.8
02:28:16  <TrueBrain> Ah :) 12 MiB... hmm.. that is wrong
02:28:26  <TrueBrain> @calc 256 * 256 * (16 * 1.1 + 8) / 1024 / 1024 / 8
02:28:26  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.2
02:28:35  <TrueBrain> 200 KiB.. more like it... acceptable
02:29:09  <benc_> what;s 16*1.1 + 8?
02:29:33  <TrueBrain> 16 bits for VehicleID, 8 bits for TileIndex, and 1.1 factor for 'double' tiles :p
02:29:35  <TrueBrain> hmm, 8 bits is wrong
02:29:36  <TrueBrain> but okay
02:29:59  <benc_> tree nodes require pointers though
02:30:10  <TrueBrain> yeah, but it is a nice estimate
02:30:21  <TrueBrain> as I even forgot the 10% :p
02:30:43  <Sacro> meh, i'll do it in less
02:30:49  * Sacro has a cunning plan
02:30:52  <TrueBrain> tell us
02:30:55  <TrueBrain> might help :)
02:32:10  <benc_> using a separate data structure can always be left as an optimization for later
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02:32:48  <Sacro> TrueBrain: i can't
02:32:54  <Sacro> my source is secret
02:33:02  <TrueBrain> blablablabla
02:33:14  <Sacro> its so secret, even i don't know it sometimes
02:39:00  <TrueBrain> so, if we follow benc_ in his thinking, we just need 1 bit in the _m to flag PBS reserved, and have a lookup to find which vehicle
02:39:13  <TrueBrain> hmm, 2 bits, in that silly case of 2 tracks on 1 tile :)
02:39:43  <Sacro> yes
02:39:46  <Sacro> 2 bits per tile
02:39:50  <Sacro> thats what i said
02:39:57  <benc_> or have the lookup be sparse
02:40:05  <benc_> only have nodes for reserved tiles
02:40:05  <TrueBrain> !whatis sparse
02:40:14  <TrueBrain> grr @ _42_, why did I disable it in #openttd :(
02:40:15  <benc_> sparse = few elements
02:40:22  <TrueBrain> benc_: exactly what I mean
02:40:22  <benc_> in a big empty space
02:40:39  <TrueBrain> std::map stores Tile and Vehicle if the PBS bit is set
02:40:59  <benc_> why even have a pbs bit in _m then?
02:41:06  <TrueBrain> faster
02:41:26  <benc_> hmm yeah i guess that would be checked a lot
02:41:30  <TrueBrain> say a vehicle doesn't have a PBS route yet, it knows immediatly if it can use a tile or not
02:41:37  <benc_> <-- not familiar with the PBS code yet
02:41:41  <TrueBrain> me neither :p
02:41:47  <TrueBrain> just thinking how it can possible work :)
02:42:03  <TrueBrain> the main problem is: if the current route is aborted, how to clean up the reservation
02:42:11  <Sacro> when it approaches a junction, it needs to route over it
02:42:14  <Sacro> but how to handle stations
02:42:45  <benc_> store a list of tile reservations on the vehicle too
02:42:45  <TrueBrain> Sacro: depends on the order, if it is going to stop on the station, act like a PBS signal is at the enterance and at the exit
02:42:50  <TrueBrain> else reserve through it
02:42:57  <benc_> but ugh, i dont know if that's just too much crud floating around
02:43:07  <Sacro> TrueBrain: it should route out the other side anway
02:43:10  <TrueBrain> benc_: hmm, maybe even that alone is enough
02:43:13  <Sacro> to stop anything routing back the other way
02:43:38  <TrueBrain> Sacro: what do you mean?
02:43:41  <benc_> TrueBrain: i think you're right
02:43:48  <benc_> with the 2 _m bits there
02:43:59  <Sacro> TrueBrain: to have a 2 track station with both platforms 2 way
02:44:02  <TrueBrain> benc_: even more fun, if you store it per vehicle, you can disable the PF for the time it is on the PBS block :)
02:44:35  <TrueBrain> but what if the junction changes
02:44:47  <benc_> i thought the PF only fired when crossing junctions anyway?
02:44:47  <Sacro> TrueBrain: *BOOM*
02:45:03  <TrueBrain> benc_: it does, but in a PBS block it shouldn't even be doing that
02:45:04  <benc_> or when track marked dirty after construction
02:45:09  <TrueBrain> it should just follow the PBS marked route
02:45:47  <Sacro> TrueBrain: surely PBS would just reserve the YAPF generated route?
02:45:56  <TrueBrain> Sacro: of course
02:45:56  <benc_> ah, so PBS thinks out the whole route but only reserves part of it
02:46:00  <TrueBrain> or the NPF for all I care
02:46:19  <TrueBrain> benc_: PBS should reserve the route from signal to signal
02:46:24  <benc_> right
02:46:24  <Sacro> or how about ditch the idea of having PBS signals/markers and just reserving for all trains
02:46:46  <TrueBrain> Sacro: that I just told you as an idea :)
02:46:50  <TrueBrain> but it aint realistic :)
02:47:03  <Sacro> sounds pretty realistic to me
02:47:12  <TrueBrain> euh
02:47:15  <TrueBrain> trains don't just stop
02:47:17  <TrueBrain> they need signals :)
02:47:18  <Sacro> a train should have a path reserved from start to finish
02:47:31  <Sacro> and a signal goes green when its path is reserved and its path is clear
02:47:42  <benc_> doesn't work that way irl either
02:47:43  <TrueBrain> that is PBS yes :)
02:47:47  <benc_> track allocations change
02:47:52  <Sacro> benc_: they shouldn't
02:48:14  <Sacro> once a train has a path allocated, it should follow it
02:48:15  <benc_> detours happen
02:48:31  <benc_> in case of accidents, unforeseen construction, etc
02:48:31  <Sacro> why would it need to detour if it has a reserved path?
02:48:36  <TrueBrain> benc_: but lets assume for a moment that will never happen in OpenTTD :)
02:48:49  <TrueBrain> as you assume a time-tabled PBS
02:48:53  <Hendikins> I'd like to be able to run trains nose to tail on a single track bi-di line.
02:48:56  <TrueBrain> let's first try a safety PBS :)
02:49:06  <Sacro> Hendikins: moving block?
02:49:22  <Hendikins> I'm not great with the terminology used.
02:49:36  <TrueBrain> as of course the best would be if, say, the train reserves 3 tiles in front of him
02:49:42  <TrueBrain> where it tells the estimate time it will be there
02:49:54  <TrueBrain> so 2 trains can cross eachother even in reserved PBS block, because one isn't there yet ;)
02:49:54  <Hendikins> But if I've got a single track section in between double track sections, I should be able to have >1 train at a time using it if they are going in the same direction.
02:49:58  <TrueBrain> but... that might be a bit too much :p
02:50:04  <Sacro> moving block ditches signals, and uses braking distance between trains
02:50:21  <Hendikins> In real life such movements would be singalled.
02:50:23  <Sacro> Hendikins: yes, thats possible
02:51:07  <TrueBrain> it aint possible the easy
02:51:15  <TrueBrain> as it isn't a static PBS reservation
02:51:35  <TrueBrain> the = that
02:51:42  <TrueBrain> it isn't = it needs
02:51:43  <TrueBrain> :p
02:52:04  <TrueBrain> a static = a non-static
02:52:04  <TrueBrain> darn!
02:52:06  <TrueBrain> haha :)
02:52:23  <TrueBrain> to have 2 trains on the same track after eachother without signals, you are doing more then PBS :)
02:52:53  <Sacro> TrueBrain: moving block signalling
02:53:07  <Sacro> actually, it is PBS
02:53:10  <TrueBrain> which I doubt exists in real life :)
02:53:19  <TrueBrain> it is a PBS, but not a static PBS which we try here :)
02:53:26  <benc_> you are simulating the autobahn in that case
02:53:44  <Sacro> Under a moving block system, computers calculate a 'safe zone' around each moving train that no other train is allowed to enter. The system depends on knowledge of the precise location and speed and direction of each train, which is determined by a combination of several sensors: active and passive markers along the track and trainborne tachometers and speedometers (GPS systems cannot be used because they do not work in tunnels.) With a mov
02:53:44  <Sacro> ing block, lineside signals are unnecessary, and instructions are passed directly to the trains. This has the advantage of increasing track capacity by allowing trains to run closer together while maintaining the required safety margins.
02:54:08  <Sacro> TrueBrain: actually, moving block would be easier
02:54:17  <Sacro> because you don't have to bother with signals
02:54:19  <TrueBrain> Sacro: dunno if it is easier, but for sure it makes the game less fun
02:54:29  <Sacro> however unrealistic
02:54:40  <Sacro> not many trains currently use it
02:54:50  <TrueBrain> if any :)
02:54:51  <benc_> moving block sure wasn't available in 1950
02:55:06  <benc_> when the game starts
02:55:13  <TrueBrain> like PBS is :p
02:55:28  <benc_> true:P
02:55:35  <TrueBrain> but that are minor details :)
02:55:49  <Sacro> lets have a signalling system with bells implemented
02:56:56  <TrueBrain> but okay
02:57:02  <TrueBrain> ideas plenty, code none :p
02:57:53  <benc_> would it be easier to start a new branch and PBS it up?
02:58:05  <TrueBrain> you mean: start from scratch?
02:58:05  <Sacro> bring back /branches/pbs!
02:58:09  <TrueBrain> yes of course that is easier :)
02:58:24  <benc_> no, i mean whats the easiest way to merge
02:59:13  <benc_> never looked at the old branch myself, i dont know
02:59:48  <benc_> willing to help out with grunt work
02:59:57  <Sacro> mmm, me too
03:00:01  <Sacro> getting back into coding
03:00:08  <Sacro> i even vaguely understand pointers!
03:00:31  <TrueBrain> good for you :p
03:00:46  <Sacro> *pointer == variable
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03:00:49  <TrueBrain> it is 05:00, and I am not tired :(
03:00:55  <Sacro> pointer == &variable
03:00:59  <Sacro> its 04:01 here
03:00:59  <TrueBrain> just hungry
03:01:01  <Sacro> and i'm shattered
03:02:25  <TrueBrain> Chocolate... hmm....
03:05:01  <TrueBrain> but okay
03:05:07  <TrueBrain> why do you guys keep on pushing PBS?
03:05:12  <TrueBrain> is it that important for you? :)
03:05:54  <benc_> i'm not pushing it, i actually like the existing system just fine
03:06:04  <TrueBrain> okay, so besides benc_ :p
03:06:07  <benc_> interesting programming challenges though
03:06:17  <TrueBrain> there are easier things to start with :)
03:06:22  <benc_> indeed
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03:09:32  <TrueBrain> so, I expect when I come back in, say, 12 hours, you guys have PBS finished
03:09:47  <benc_> we'll get right on it
03:10:34  <benc_> rome was built in a day after all:)
03:10:46  <TrueBrain> my point exactly :)
03:11:02  <TrueBrain> not much that line is used against me :) I mostly use it against people.... :p
03:11:04  * Sacro yawns
03:13:26  <TrueBrain> we should properly check how the old PBS was done :p
03:13:32  <TrueBrain> but those patches are unreadable :(
03:13:44  <benc_> how so?
03:13:51  <TrueBrain> they always are
03:13:57  <TrueBrain> they become big...
03:15:21  <Smoovious> might be worth starting again from scratch too
03:17:33  <Smoovious> maybe come up with a different  way of keeping track of which signals lead to other signals...
03:17:36  <Smoovious> dunno
03:18:34  <Smoovious> would like to see more than just stop/proceed signals too...
03:18:47  <benc_> !logs
03:18:51  <benc_> !log
03:22:40  <TrueBrain> it aint going to be easy...
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03:23:52  <Sacro> Smoovious: such as?
03:26:16  <Smoovious> well... in one of the US styles... G/G all clear ahead... G/R clear ahead... Y/Y clear, expect to stop at 2nd next signal... Y/R expect to stop next signal... R/R stop...
03:26:30  <Smoovious> with signal state default to stop instead of proceed
03:27:02  <benc_> i'm going blind already trying to tell the difference between pre/signal/combo signals ;)
03:27:05  <Smoovious> clearing t he track for the t rain ahead of it... maybe get that working well, then tackle the path-based
03:27:25  <Sacro> yeah, that'd be cool
03:28:06  <Smoovious> for path based, use 3 targets...
03:28:14  <Smoovious> dunno
03:28:44  <Smoovious> would  like to see a G/R if  I'm going straight   on t he main track, and a R/G if I'm cleared to branch off
03:28:48  * Smoovious shrugs.
03:29:00  <Smoovious> probably more complexity than we can  do as far as that goes
03:29:43  <Smoovious> one guy in here the  other day was talking about doing programmable signals... really interested me, but  can't find a thread about it...
03:29:57  <TrueBrain> most likely he failed :p
03:30:07  <TrueBrain> via SQ it is possible, but pretty slow
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03:30:56  <Smoovious> don't think he faileed yet, he was still doing it... but  if we can do something where you can set up the available paths for  the i nterlocking, and keep them in a table for that group,  and signal  accordingly...
03:31:06  <Smoovious> but would take a lot to work out t he l ogic
03:31:11  <Smoovious> think it can be done  tho
03:31:18  <TrueBrain> not to talk about memory and speed :)
03:31:48  <benc_> that's like running a TCP router firmware on, say, Python
03:31:57  <TrueBrain> yup
03:32:05  <TrueBrain> still, much more configurable :)
03:32:58  <TrueBrain> but okay, I don't want to do PBS
03:33:03  <TrueBrain> so, what am I going to do... :)
03:33:23  <Smoovious> trying  to think of what program I used to mess around with that made linking signalling together fairly  easy
03:34:34  <Smoovious> well, if you really want a project... how about, if when autorenew isn't able to replace a vehicle cuz it isn't  available  anymore, to pop up a news item that the replacement was u navailable... i  nstead of being quiet until we notice we got trains  20 years past its l  ife sspan
03:34:54  <TrueBrain> Autoreplace == Bjarni
03:35:04  <Smoovious> 1 word... coup
03:35:10  <benc_> more news items!
03:35:12  <Smoovious> :D
03:35:33  <benc_> not really project-y though
03:35:53  <benc_> but would be nice to be able to get more notifications
03:36:12  <benc_> like when shares are bought, money is given in multiplayer, town actions done, etc
03:36:18  <Smoovious> well, the failied autoreplace would be on par with "...is getting old." messagees
03:36:41  <Smoovious> yeah, we need more shares too... like... 100 instead of 4
03:36:54  <TrueBrain> no, we need a dynamic share
03:37:03  <benc_> shares are worthless until after economy rebalancing:)
03:37:05  <TrueBrain> like the real market
03:37:07  <Smoovious> buy in single percents... and only buy them a limited amount at a time
03:38:27  <Smoovious> maybe, something l ike... if you h ave more than 50% ownership of another company, you don't need their permission to use their tracks anymore, you can just go on them on your own and if he d oesn't like it... well...  he can sell the rest of his shares to you and go home. >:)
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03:40:41  <Smoovious> ya know, if we do increase # of companies, think we should go to 15 instead of 16, leaving company 0 available for independent vehicles... like... a road  vehicle crashes or something, emergency vehicles come out of a nearby depot  to the scene, disrupt traffic for a while until
03:40:50  <Smoovious> it dissapears, then drives b ack to th e depot
03:41:56  <Smoovious> or occasionally a rail work crew comes out on th e track getting i n t he way for a while
03:42:26  <TrueBrain> I like to see a lot of new disasters :)
03:42:31  <Smoovious> I had some ideas for closing airports, which I think would work
03:42:52  <TrueBrain> trains not stopping for a red signal
03:42:54  <TrueBrain> stuff like that :)
03:43:13  <Smoovious> yeah, that's what I was thinking... with a 'company 0' available for vehicles, you could do a lot with disasters and other things
03:43:49  <Smoovious> if a signal hasn't been serviced in a long time, the chance for signal failure gradually goes up
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03:44:28  <Smoovious> much more gradually than breakdown percents... (which I think still happen too often, even on reduced... can't imagine playing  on normal)
03:45:51  <Smoovious> oh... being able to  start a new company when already joined to a server as an observer... that'd be great...
03:46:02  <Smoovious> less disruptive to the current players too
03:46:26  <Smoovious> and for  the server... if I am hosting a game, and I go bankrupt,  I'm screwed
03:53:14  <Ailure> heh
03:53:18  <Ailure> could work as a console command
03:53:50  <Ailure> NewCompany
03:53:58  <Ailure> and SwitchcCompany <ID>
03:54:13  <Ailure> eh
03:54:15  <Smoovious> should be able to just go  under the load/save/quit menu too
03:54:25  <Ailure> SwitchCompany <ID> <password>
03:54:44  <Smoovious> or the client list... click on your nick, create new company
03:55:04  <benc_> essentially a way to switch from spectator to player
03:55:05  <Smoovious> but yeah, at least a console command...
03:55:09  <Smoovious> something...
03:55:13  <benc_> would be handy, genenerally
03:55:14  <Smoovious> yeah
03:55:24  <benc_> dont have to exit/reconnect if you're specing
03:55:44  <Smoovious> would help (maybe, probably not) stop all those idiots  who keep creating a new  company, leavbe a min  later, and never come back
03:56:10  <Smoovious> tho my problem is when I find a server I wanna play on, I don't always remember which o ne it was I connected to
03:56:44  <Smoovious> maybe you could o nly create a new  company, once you're connected as a spectator
03:57:08  <benc_> yeah, thats a separate issue
03:57:20  <benc_> need to remember last several servers connected to
03:57:25  <benc_> i think there's a thread about it..
03:58:11  <Smoovious> yeah, I think I still have a FS entry up asking for it
03:58:37  <Smoovious> yeah, FS#533
03:58:48  <benc_> wow, that's a ways back
03:58:53  <benc_> in 900s now
03:59:13  <benc_> limbo sucks
03:59:26  <Smoovious> ya
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03:59:51  <Smoovious> working on  getting FS#532 current and changed a bit tonight
04:01:18  <benc_> havent tried that one out yet
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04:02:19  <Smoovious> it worked pretty good... but still room for improvement...
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04:10:26  <Ailure> hmm
04:10:40  <Ailure> Am I silly if I have a black man as manager
04:10:49  <Ailure> then name the company as "Bike Storage"
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04:11:22  <Smoovious> no sillier than other companies I've seen
04:11:31  <Ailure> hehe
04:13:14  <Ailure> then in the same game
04:13:25  <Ailure> a friend made a reference to something from a silly manga about trains
04:14:36  <Ailure> http://194.47.44.201/openTTD/Bike%20Transport%20game/Bike%20Storage,%2012th%20Sep%201922%232.png
04:14:42  <Ailure> http://194.47.44.201/imagemacros/1170672919214.png
04:14:55  <Ailure> he always build thoose circular networks
04:15:06  <Ailure> and that station says "multi track drifting" in japanse
04:15:13  <Ailure> or so he said
04:15:45  <benc_> hah
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04:22:10  <Smoovious> somehow I don't think multi-track drifting is going to be implemented in trunk
04:24:29  <Ailure> aww
04:32:02  * Phazorx gets a lot of desyncs/CTDs lately while managing trains servicing
04:32:20  <Phazorx> was there any bugs concerning that between 170 and now ?
04:34:05  <Ailure> 170 of what
04:34:19  <Ailure> or do you mean
04:34:23  <Ailure> 10170?
04:36:38  <Phazorx> 10170 yes
04:37:06  <Phazorx> i guess sdince i am using train grops interfqace it could eb related to grouping
04:38:23  <Ailure> heh
04:38:27  <Ailure> I was using it earlier without problems
04:38:32  <Ailure> but I didn't do anything too excessive in it
04:38:48  <Ailure> in a multiplayer game, that is
04:39:23  <Phazorx> i'm just clicking on trains and then sending them to depot
04:39:33  <Phazorx> since servicing order somehoe did not work for all
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04:39:44  <Phazorx> and i got desynced twice since i started doing that
04:40:01  <Ailure> haha
04:40:04  <Ailure> that was little bit mean
04:40:11  <Ailure> but I guess he deserves it
04:41:48  <Phazorx> ?
04:41:56  <Ailure> or hmm
04:41:57  <Ailure> nevermind
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08:43:14  <Hendikins> Hrm, I'm finding ottd runs much better on the 64bit box
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08:45:21  <peter1138> does it happen to also be faster?
08:45:42  <Hendikins> Actually, no
08:46:12  <Hendikins> This is a 1600MHz Sempron (64bit) vs a 2000MHz Barton (32bit), both with 1 gig RAM
08:46:43  <Hendikins> (The 32bit machine is dualproc, but that isn't particularly relevant)
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09:04:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: KUDr * r10292 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix: suppress VC 7.1 warning: "\src\texteff.cpp(251) : warning C4258: 'y' : definition from the for loop is ignored; the definition from the enclosing scope is used" which prevents compilation on MSVC 2003
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09:43:51  <stillunknown> Hendikins: The amd64 architecture is faster per mhz, and ofcource the usage of int64 doesn't hinder a 64bits arch.
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09:49:28  <TrueBrain> @op
09:49:29  *** mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
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09:54:26  <stillunknown> Can functions inherit like classes can?
09:54:59  <eekee> what would they inherit?
09:55:21  <stillunknown> A piece of common code.
09:55:46  <stillunknown> But now that i think of it, it would be strange.
09:55:56  <eekee> yeah ^^'
09:56:19  <eekee> I'd guess to move the common code to an inline func
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09:58:24  <stillunknown> Hello Osai.
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10:01:00  <Osai> hi
10:01:14  <stillunknown> eekee: if i inline a virtual function into a non-virtual function, will that even work?
10:01:30  <eekee> stillunknown: ok now I'm lost :)
10:02:15  <stillunknown> I'm considering a two stage vehicle controller, one with common code, which then calls the second stage.
10:02:41  <stillunknown> Obviously the second needs differs greatly between the vehicles, and that needs to be virtual.
10:02:55  <stillunknown> So i can define different functions for different vehicle types/
10:04:28  <eekee> why are you tryig to do it in one function?
10:04:50  <stillunknown> Make the code more pretty and reduce code duplication.
10:05:41  <stillunknown> I already have a single tick function, next task would be the controller.
10:06:03  <Noldo> so a vehiclecontroller class with specific ones derived from that?
10:06:15  <eekee> sounds like a job for a class, yeah
10:06:35  <stillunknown> Obviously those functions are in the vehicle class.
10:06:40  <eekee> Oh & IMHO, great big 'megafunctions' are never pretty :D
10:07:15  <stillunknown> I don't want great megafunctions, i even cut up the TrainController, since it was too large for my taste.
10:07:23  <Hendikins> *growl* nothing more annoying than industries and towns that seem impossible to bribe when trying to build a straight, level express line
10:07:25  <eekee> /me's "I hate OOP" swtich just tripped
10:07:45  <eekee> heh
10:07:56  <eekee> Hendikins: patience works 8)
10:08:26  <eekee> stillunknown: sounds like you want to subclass the vehicle class, am I right?
10:08:35  <stillunknown> This is already done.
10:08:37  <Hendikins> So does cloning pax trains in the mean time because 40 isn't enough
10:08:39  <stillunknown> In trunk.
10:08:47  <eekee> heheh
10:09:04  * eekee blinks
10:09:34  <eekee> Augh I give up, lol
10:10:26  <eekee> Ugh, brain won't stop. Can't you subclass the subclasses? I thought that was a principle of OOP...
10:10:50  <stillunknown> The subclasses in place are fine.
10:11:15  <stillunknown> I'm just considering what to do with aircraft, they work very differently from everything else.
10:11:27  <eekee> no, they're not, because they're preventing you from implementing your vehicle controller
10:12:11  <stillunknown> I currently have a virtual vehicle controller, defined for each type.
10:12:23  <eekee> nvm
10:12:30  <peter1138>   2.48     12.14     0.56     3851     0.00     0.00  CargoPacket::AllocateRaw()
10:12:39  <peter1138>   0.00     22.37     0.00     3851     0.00     0.00  CargoPacket::AllocateRaw()
10:12:43  <peter1138> better ;)
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10:13:25  <Wolf01> hello
10:13:37  <stillunknown> eekee: Most controller functions are predicable, increase tick counter, check for crash, check for reverse, do loading stuff
10:13:46  <eekee> mmhmm
10:14:05  <Wolf01> now i'm a lucky owner of transport tycoon, after a difficult search i found it!
10:14:13  <eekee> yay!
10:14:46  <stillunknown> eekee: But currently the controller's have varying names and sometimes stuff is in the wrong place.
10:15:02  <eekee> ahh, & you're trying to clean it up
10:15:41  <stillunknown> I'm going to do as much cleanup as i can, then i'll force someone to put it into trunk ;-)
10:15:49  <eekee> haha!
10:16:48  <eekee> Well, all I can say is that cleaning up often requires changing the structure, hence my comment that maybe the current subclassing isn't "just fine" & may need to be subclassed futher
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10:17:12  <stillunknown> Maybe for aircraft
10:17:28  <stillunknown> helicopter and aircraft issue
10:17:55  <eekee> ah right *nod*
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10:19:32  *** peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.5.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog,           Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds:           nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs,  Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices
10:19:36  <peter1138> hmm
10:19:38  <peter1138> wtf
10:20:04  *** peter1138 changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.5.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices
10:20:13  <peter1138> no idea :o
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10:22:06  <Biff> hmm, what is "FS"?
10:22:16  <XeryusTC> fly spray
10:22:21  <Biff> ah
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10:25:47  <dihedral> mornin
10:26:24  <eekee> ahoy hoy
10:26:32  <dihedral> aye
10:27:48  <dihedral> my word - it was a little too late for my tast :-P
10:27:52  <dihedral> +e
10:28:01  <eekee> yeah, heh
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10:46:21  <TrueBrain> lalalala
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10:48:34  <peter1138> 4 las?
10:49:13  <TrueBrain> I was bored
10:50:11  <peter1138> i see
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10:58:00  * Hendikins wonders why his dual head T.I.M.s aren't being replaced with dual head AsiaStars, even though they're supposed to be getting replaced and the trains are going to depots
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11:02:25  <Chris82> good morning
11:02:36  <Chris82> does it help city growth when I build roads for them?
11:02:49  <TrueBrain> a bit, not much
11:03:05  <TrueBrain> the town-groth sometimes trades house-building for road-building
11:03:07  <TrueBrain> but that is all
11:03:51  <Chris82> ok then I can save myself a lot of time :D
11:04:02  <Hendikins> Is autoreplace supposed to ignore dual head + dual end trains?
11:05:06  * Hendikins would really not like to have to manually upgrade 150-odd trains
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11:06:59  <dihedral> TrueBrain: saw you patched the smooth_economy stuff :-)
11:07:30  <Chris82> Hendikins I though that was a bug that got fixed recently
11:08:18  * Hendikins svn ups to latest
11:08:28  * Hendikins was at r10201 or so.
11:08:43  <dihedral> nice
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11:18:13  <Hendikins> Chris82: Apparently not.
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11:18:52  <Hendikins> Even with r10292 my dual head T.I.M.s are not being autoreplaced.
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11:29:08  <dihedral> does autoclean_protected = 0 in the mean time mean that protected companies are never purged?
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11:32:28  <Haclet> Hi
11:32:32  <Haclet> I have question
11:32:38  <Haclet> What the timetable is ?
11:32:43  <Haclet> How can I use it?
11:33:07  <dihedral> by downloading the latest nightly (or anything as of r10269)
11:33:07  <Haclet> It new future or was before and I didn't see it ?
11:33:16  <dihedral> new... very new
11:33:20  <dihedral> 4 days perhaps
11:33:27  <Haclet> WOW :)
11:33:34  <Haclet> So - how can I use it ?
11:33:47  <dihedral> but you need a nightly build not a stable build... openttd.org/nightly i believe
11:34:09  <Haclet>  I have last version from SVN
11:34:22  <dihedral> good
11:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> Haclet: open train orders window, on the top right there is timetable
11:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> then assign a time for each item
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11:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> if the train takes less time than that, it will wait
11:34:48  <Haclet> Yes I know where it is, but how can I use IT ?
11:34:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> time is in days
11:35:12  <Haclet> so that means that I can set for example 10days for coal, 5 days for something else ?
11:35:32  <dihedral> just try it :-)
11:35:45  <Haclet> dihedral: GOOOD Answer -
11:35:52  <eekee> lol
11:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can e.g. tell your slow freight trains to wait at a station, while an express train is scheduled to pass through and overtake
11:35:59  <Haclet> As soon as I will have tami
11:36:03  <Haclet> time
11:36:10  <eekee> TT's always had a "try it & see" interface, lol
11:36:14  <eekee> :)
11:36:20  <Haclet> take care - I have to do some diuties - no games for this moment ;)
11:36:40  <Haclet> eekee: right LOL
11:36:46  <eekee> ^^;
11:36:48  <Haclet> thank you
11:36:51  <Haclet> see you soon
11:36:53  <Haclet> bye
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11:37:09  <Chris82> Hendikins: Hmm that dual train bug is weird. The dual head trains in the DB Set XL are replaced without problems.
11:37:47  * eekee tries it
11:38:10  <dihedral> i thought it was a good answer :-)
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11:38:17  <dihedral> a "learn by doing" answer
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11:40:18  <Chris82> I used the time table on an extremely huge passenger circle line on a 2048x2048 map
11:40:33  <Chris82> it works well to keep a an approx. set distance between the trains
11:40:49  <Chris82> so I don't have 50 trains in one corner of the circle line but instead spread all over the line
11:41:07  <dihedral> would be cool if the station rating changed depending on if a train is how late or on time :-)
11:41:16  <Chris82> I don't know how useful it is for express / cargo train issues, I never use the same tracks for passenger and cargo lines
11:41:16  <dihedral> or the town's rating
11:43:03  <peter1138> getting the time table right is tricky
11:43:14  * Chris82 nods
11:43:34  <dihedral> unfort yes
11:43:54  <Chris82> but I think once I figured all the tricks out it becomes a great and useful feature
11:43:58  <dihedral> i would be cool if there was an 'history'
11:43:59  <Chris82> right now it's more trial and error :p
11:44:17  <dihedral> all trains in this shared order too an average of x days for this
11:44:30  <eekee> Trains only get replaced when they go in for servicing, right?
11:44:37  <dihedral> aye
11:44:44  <Chris82> with auto replace?
11:44:48  <dihedral> aye
11:44:50  <Chris82> they get replaced whenever you set the option
11:45:01  <Chris82> servicing can be disabled that's no problem in the latest nightlies (was before tho)
11:45:15  <dihedral> Chris82: they still have to visit a depot to get replaced!
11:45:20  <Chris82> yes sure
11:45:28  <eekee> mine aren't going into the depot at all O.o
11:45:33  <Chris82> but you don't need to send them there and enable servicing
11:45:50  <eekee> may be a 'fault' in my test track, but I don't see it
11:45:56  <Chris82> huh? you must have a depot somewhere on your tracks, otherwise how did you build the trains?
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11:46:18  <dihedral> you have breakdowns turned off?
11:46:35  <dihedral> and possible service if breackdowns are off = disabled?
11:46:38  <Chris82> I have breakdowns off and disabled servicing. But auto replace works fine anyway.
11:47:08  <Chris82> It didn't in earlier versions of auto replace because then trains only got replaced on the normal service intervals.
11:47:15  <Chris82> But as I said that's no issue in the latest nightlies
11:47:17  <eekee> Oh, my trains were waiting for the servicing interval to come up
11:47:24  <eekee> oh
11:47:41  <eekee> hm
11:47:44  <Chris82> which version are you using?
11:48:48  <eekee> r10201
11:49:04  <Chris82> then auto replace should definitely work without servicing
11:49:17  <eekee> It didn't :)
11:49:28  <Chris82> can you send me a savegame?
11:49:36  <Chris82> so I can see if I find an error in the network
11:49:52  <eekee> Well, servicing was enabled, maybe when dervicing is disabled it works differently -- sure
11:50:27  <Chris82> well but if it works with servicing disabled and doesn't work with enabled servicing it would be really weird
11:51:05  <eekee> sending
11:51:10  <eekee> yeah, but possible :D
11:51:17  <Chris82> did you try to DCC me?
11:51:21  <eekee> yeah
11:51:25  <Chris82> that is disabled here
11:51:28  <Chris82> can you upload it?
11:51:28  <eekee> oh
11:51:33  <eekee> sure!
11:53:28  <eekee> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ethan.grammatikidis/eekee-veh-replace-test.sav
11:56:14  <Chris82> hmmm interesting
11:57:11  <Chris82> they are not replaced indeed but there's no way this track has pathfinding problems
11:58:23  <Chris82> it only works when I send them manually to servicing
11:58:26  <Chris82> otherwise nothing happens
11:58:28  <Chris82> that is strange
12:00:08  <Chris82> this might be the dual head problem Hendikins spoke about before
12:00:24  <Chris82> steam and single head electrified railway is replaced properly
12:00:57  <eekee> Yes. I was playing with Hendikins, I replaced single-headers fine earlier in the same game with r10201
12:02:34  <Chris82> hmm I will try if I can reproduce that in a game I created myself
12:02:37  <eekee> Incidentally I made that test with r10201, perhaps the error hangs on from the old version? r9936 or therabouts had a problem with ufo shadows persisting after the ufo had blown up, & you load up a save game with those shadows in a newer version & then shadows are still there
12:04:06  <Bjarni> can anybody tell me the name of a known good industry newGRF?
12:04:15  <Bjarni> known good as in "works with trunk"
12:04:33  <peter1138> uh none?
12:04:55  <Bjarni> that would explain why this didn't work
12:05:02  <eekee> trunk supports new industies now?
12:05:05  <peter1138> no
12:05:09  <Bjarni> I guess not
12:05:27  <eekee> o ok
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12:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> wasn't there a purely graphical factory replacement? :p
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12:18:01  <eekee> oh graphical replacement works, yeah. The Mars grf does that, on openttd
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12:45:49  <Smoovious> I think I have that graphical factory replacement if ya want it
12:46:31  <Caemyr> ?
12:47:49  <Smoovious> answering something someone else said 30min ago
12:50:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> ugh... that lightning was close...
12:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> Smoovious: i don't think that was what he actually asked for :p
12:50:34  <Smoovious> oh sorry, my bad.... >moves it a few miles further north<
12:50:48  <Smoovious> that was to you, Eddi|zuHause3. :P
12:51:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> i was only replying to something else
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12:51:39  <Smoovious> brb
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12:51:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> and the question was rhethorical... hence the ":p"
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13:07:45  <Smoovious> ib
13:08:27  <Smoovious> yeah, but I tend to play straight-man a lot... a lot of  things are funnier when there's  one person  who acts like h e doesn't get it. :D
13:09:52  <dihedral> is there any way one could get a screenshot from the intro screen with out the menu in front?
13:10:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, rename the .dat to .sav and load it
13:10:45  <dihedral> :-) thanks
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13:45:40  <kaan> hi all
13:47:01  <TrueBrain> hi kaan
13:48:06  <dihedral> hello
13:52:09  <kaan> :)
13:52:49  <kaan> so what new breathtaking features sneaked into trunk since i went to bed last noght?
13:52:57  <kaan> night*
13:55:25  <dihedral> network_udp.cpp: FOR_ALL_CLIENTS(cs)
13:55:33  <dihedral> how are they sorted
13:55:39  <TrueBrain> not
13:55:40  <dihedral> i.e. latest join first?
13:55:42  <dihedral> ok
13:55:45  <dihedral> thx
14:01:12  <stillunknown> OTTD is a mess in some ways, but i suppose you all knew that.
14:01:32  <TrueBrain> depends on to what you refer
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14:02:26  <stillunknown> There is consistency between vehicle functions.
14:02:32  <stillunknown> One does DoThis()
14:02:40  <stillunknown> other: Don'tDoThis()
14:02:56  <stillunknown> yet another: DoThis(i want more args)
14:03:18  <stillunknown> Also there is no well defined structure were things should be done.
14:03:31  <stillunknown> Either in a tick, or in the vehicle controller, etc.
14:03:43  <TrueBrain> so you only complain about lack of documentation
14:03:43  <stillunknown> But don't worry, i'm doing my best ;-)
14:03:50  <TrueBrain> that you can resolve yourself :)
14:04:03  <stillunknown> I'm busy restructuring some things.
14:04:19  <TrueBrain> I am hungry, but as I am going on vacation, I don't really feel like buying new stuff, so I only have things I don't like to eat that much...
14:04:21  <TrueBrain> annoying :)
14:05:48  <kaan> well, find the stuff in the back and eat it with your eyes closed then :P
14:06:02  <TrueBrain> I don't have stuff 'in the back'
14:06:06  <TrueBrain> I am a pretty clean guy :)
14:06:09  <TrueBrain> I think :p
14:06:22  <kaan> i meant like canned fish or something
14:06:48  <TrueBrain> aawwwhhhh :p
14:06:50  <TrueBrain> aa = oo
14:07:15  <kaan> or make pasta with kethup
14:07:22  <TrueBrain> I hate pasta
14:07:24  <TrueBrain> really, I do
14:07:38  <kaan> hehe, theres no pleaseing you i guess
14:07:49  <TrueBrain> nope :)
14:07:51  <TrueBrain> yeah, good patches
14:07:53  <TrueBrain> that pleases me :)
14:08:02  <kaan> well im fresh out ;)
14:08:18  <eekee> Tuna + bread == meal :d
14:08:28  <kaan> eekee: exactly!
14:08:32  <eekee> :D
14:08:44  <eekee> need a lil bit of veg too, but can skip it
14:09:10  <kaan> TrueBrain: where are you going on vacation?
14:09:19  <TrueBrain> France! Viva La France!
14:09:23  <eekee> where's the trancparency options gone?
14:09:29  <kaan> nice
14:09:31  <TrueBrain> eekee: where it should have been all along
14:09:38  <TrueBrain> eekee: try to look in the most logic place to find it :)
14:09:56  <eekee> TrueBrain: What, under map? Oh I know, under config
14:10:02  <kaan> then you should get good food :D
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14:10:10  <eekee> ya tee why
14:10:13  <TrueBrain> eekee: exactly :) Under map wasn't really... logic :p
14:10:43  <eekee> *shrugs* It made sense to me :) But then it wasn't with the other view options
14:11:08  <TrueBrain> it made sense to you?!
14:11:11  <TrueBrain> iek!
14:11:40  <stillunknown> I never found the old place, i noticed it a day or two ago for the first time.
14:14:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> <TrueBrain> France! Viva La France! <- it's "vive la france", isn't it?
14:14:52  <TrueBrain> who cares
14:14:58  <Smoovious> TrueBrain... do you still put together openttd .torrents?
14:15:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> viva sounds more like italian
14:15:05  <TrueBrain> hmm, torrents
14:15:07  <TrueBrain> I should update them
14:16:08  <Smoovious> well, reason I ask  is I keep a client (2 actually) running 24/7... if ya want someone  to help seed, I'm willing... can set  something up to autoload them
14:16:19  <TrueBrain> feel free :)
14:16:38  <Smoovious> do you have them on an rss?
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14:17:59  <TrueBrain> nope, the page you see there is all we have
14:18:13  <Smoovious> oh...
14:18:52  <Smoovious> well, will see what I can set up when ya get back
14:19:17  <Smoovious> and thnx for the commit. :D
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15:02:09  <Phazorx> can anyone suggest a way to debug hard crashes?
15:02:27  <Phazorx> it gets very anoying and isnt responce to my actions since last few times i been idle
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15:12:04  <TrueBrain> so, what next....
15:12:46  <stillunknown> Phazorx: does it give asserts?
15:12:51  <Phazorx> stillunknown: hard crush
15:12:55  <Phazorx> CTD
15:12:59  <Phazorx> *crash
15:13:16  <stillunknown> Run it in a debugger, backtrace it when it crashes.
15:13:31  <Phazorx> win32 here  :/
15:13:50  <Phazorx> i guess gdb from mingw would do
15:15:42  <stillunknown> But don't expect to run any mega games in a usefull way.
15:15:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> compile with debug symbols first...
15:16:09  <stillunknown> Because a debug build isn't optimized or stripped of it's symbols.
15:16:10  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause3: i might ened more detailed instructions
15:16:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> ./configure --help?
15:16:56  <TrueBrain> ./configure --enable-debug is enough :p
15:17:14  <Phazorx> nothing fancy like linking gdb?
15:17:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> gdb should be already installed
15:17:50  <Phazorx> not in mingw here
15:17:56  <Phazorx> which is what came with bottd
15:18:07  <TrueBrain> that we can't help/fix/solve
15:18:07  <TrueBrain> :)
15:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> then install it :)
15:18:20  <Phazorx> i'l get gdb
15:18:36  <Phazorx> once i fugure out how i can branch local svn copies
15:18:36  <Phazorx> s
15:18:49  <Phazorx> so i have latest with profiling along with 10170
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15:22:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> md openttd-r#####; cd openttd-r#####; svn export <URL> -r #####
15:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you intend to svn update later, use svn checkout instead of svn export
15:24:22  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause3: i was hoping to avoid 2 sources
15:24:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you want to have different revisions, you need different sources...
15:25:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> but after compiling you can delete everything outside the bin/ dir
15:31:52  <Phazorx> well that was a bad start
15:31:57  <Phazorx> gdb fails to compile
15:32:18  <Phazorx> in sys/time.h
15:32:22  <Phazorx> weird
15:33:24  <glx> gdb is included in msys
15:35:06  <glx> mingw32-gdb.exe
15:35:07  <Phazorx> wasnt ehre
15:38:20  <Ammler> Phazorx: you can also reconfigure with revision=rXXXXX, but I would also suggest to use more than one source
15:39:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> Phazorx: but you don't need to compile it
15:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> Ammler: that will never work correctly...
15:40:02  <Ammler> If the different sources not much behind, it worked for me well, at least I made it so long time
15:41:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> Ammler: that was really just a coincidence
15:42:29  <Ammler> indeed, last year I had some desyncs, but since I rejoined this year, it worked well
15:42:58  <Ammler> now I work with different chckouts too
15:47:49  <Ammler> 32bpp is in the trunk now, but I miss one more zoom in step, how do I activate that?
15:48:01  <glx> code it
15:48:12  <Ammler> but it was in the 32bpp already
15:48:50  <glx> the 32bpp in trunk is very different from the branch
15:51:23  <Phazorx> ugm glx where do i get that debuger?
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15:51:55  <Smoovious> Ortho makes a good debugger... .. .
15:53:55  <stillunknown> I wonder why people bother with so called integrated builds, they end being ugly kludges that die after a while
15:54:17  <glx> Phazorx: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=2435&package_id=82721&release_id=158852
15:54:33  <Smoovious> because they're  good for testing things out that haven't made it into trunk yet
15:54:59  <Phazorx> thank you
15:55:11  <stillunknown> But identifying bugs is troublesome with many patches.
15:55:20  <stillunknown> And some people use it just to use it.
15:55:47  <Smoovious> it isn't testing specific bugs, but for  overall usability, and how they interact with each other
15:56:02  <Smoovious> there's more to testing than looking for errors
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15:57:06  <Smoovious> they make integrateds for the same reason they make branches...
15:57:33  <Smoovious> don't like em, don't use em, but they get something out of it, even if you can't see it
15:57:40  <stillunknown> But branches are for the purpose of eventually being merged back, and they are usually by one or a small group of authors.
15:57:50  <Smoovious> so?
15:58:42  <stillunknown> It's a temporary fork, which is bound to die.
15:58:49  <Smoovious> again... so?
15:59:20  <Smoovious> people like to try out stuff... what's so hard to understand about that?
15:59:36  <stillunknown> It's better to spend time to get 10-15% of those patches included in trunk, much better on the long run.
15:59:59  <eekee> P0otentially much more boring though :d
16:00:26  <Smoovious> and branches are for the purpose of trying stuff out without messing up the trunk... a branch is not necessarily intended to be merged back... some do... more often than not, they don't
16:00:39  <Smoovious> better according to who?
16:01:05  <Smoovious> do y ou really think people don't  intend for their patches to make it into t runk?
16:01:29  <stillunknown> Most people do, but a lot don't enter.
16:01:42  <Smoovious> so what?
16:02:02  <Smoovious> you're not quite onto the  whole concept of what open source i s, are ya?
16:02:32  <Smoovious> people h ave the freedom to try things out...
16:02:38  *** |re06011988| [~RE0601198@ADijon-152-1-24-183.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:02:58  <Smoovious> if they get added into trunk, fine, but the majority of patches offered, don't make it into trunk
16:04:00  <stillunknown> But maintaining a large combination of patches on a fast moving target like openttd, is a bad idea imo.
16:04:02  <Smoovious> if nothing else, it is  a learning experience for the people involved... and even if they don't make it into trunk, the process has been very valuable for them...
16:04:21  <Smoovious> I disagree... I see it as a  very good idea
16:04:59  <TrueBrain> good ... bad .... it has its ups and its downs
16:05:02  <Smoovious> and very positive for the project
16:05:47  <Smoovious> if people weren't trying out new  things independently, would t he project  be as far along as it is now?
16:05:51  <eekee> It's a game, development is unpaid, if the developers don't get to have their fun as & when the fancy, who would code it at all?
16:06:14  <Smoovious> free your mind. :)
16:06:16  *** Tobin [~Tobin@c58-107-50-36.eburwd7.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Tobin]
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16:08:16  <stillunknown> I like an active community as well.
16:08:33  <Smoovious> then quit bitching about it being active. :P
16:09:07  <Smoovious> someone wouldn't let you play on their server, is that it? cuz, I don't get what the problem is
16:10:08  <TrueBrain> I am bored
16:10:15  <stillunknown> I never even touch patch builds, so that's not the problem.
16:10:19  <Smoovious> when do you split for France?
16:10:26  <TrueBrain> in 5 days
16:10:29  <Smoovious> stillunknown... youor choice
16:10:38  <Smoovious> TrueBrain... how long ya gonna be gone for?
16:10:42  <TrueBrain> 12days
16:10:49  <Smoovious> not bad...
16:10:54  <TrueBrain> indeed :)
16:11:15  <Smoovious> whatcha planning to do once ya get there?
16:11:21  <TrueBrain> travel
16:11:24  <TrueBrain> enjoy
16:11:27  <TrueBrain> do nothing
16:11:42  <Smoovious> just see where the current takes you/
16:11:51  <TrueBrain> I have a car
16:11:53  <TrueBrain> so , yeah
16:11:59  <Smoovious> nice
16:12:25  <Smoovious> I hate scheduled vacations myself... like to do the random drive...
16:12:37  <eekee> Yeah me too ^_^
16:12:38  <Smoovious> end up finding much more interesting places that way
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16:13:26  <TrueBrain> yup
16:13:29  <TrueBrain> so we will see :)
16:13:37  <Smoovious> hope ya have a good time
16:13:41  <TrueBrain> hmm, a desert that is 3 weeks over its date...
16:13:46  <TrueBrain> let's try it
16:13:46  <dihedral> aye - from here too
16:14:08  <TrueBrain> tnx, I will :)
16:14:18  <TrueBrain> but I ahve 2 days left of coding :p
16:14:21  <TrueBrain> and I am bored to dead
16:14:29  <dihedral> TrueBrain: when you start dreaming ottd stuff - you know you need another few days away :-D
16:14:57  <dihedral> why are you bored?
16:15:03  <TrueBrain> it smells okay
16:15:09  <TrueBrain> it tastes oky
16:15:11  <TrueBrain> can I assume it is okay?
16:15:21  <Smoovious> what is it?
16:15:22  <dihedral> what are you looking at?
16:15:30  <TrueBrain> a desert
16:15:39  <dihedral> if its milk or meat and its off itll make you through up
16:15:42  <dihedral> how old is it?
16:15:52  <Phazorx> ouch
16:15:54  <TrueBrain> 5 weeks old, 3 weeks over its date :p
16:15:55  <Phazorx> 20887629 Jun 23 12:15 openttd.exe
16:15:59  <Phazorx> 20M lol
16:16:02  <Smoovious> was it frozen?
16:16:09  <dihedral> depends on how nice you want your holiday to be
16:16:23  <TrueBrain> not frozeh
16:16:30  <Smoovious> yeah, better be on the safe  side this  close to departure and just toss it
16:16:31  <TrueBrain> I hate dates on stuff
16:16:35  <TrueBrain> it is never correct
16:16:38  <TrueBrain> nah
16:16:40  <TrueBrain> I am eating it :)
16:16:41  <dihedral> if you dont mind stopping the car every 5 mins to take a dump... go ahead :-D
16:16:47  * Smoovious shakes his head.
16:16:54  <kaan> good luck with that TrueBrain
16:17:05  <dihedral> what people do when they are bored
16:17:10  <TrueBrain> and it tastest gooooooddd!!! :)
16:17:41  <dihedral> lets just wait a day or 2 and see if your stomach sais the same
16:17:46  <stillunknown> Sick countdown: 20 minutes ;-)
16:17:48  <TrueBrain> will let you know :)
16:17:59  <kaan> id rather not know :P
16:18:00  <dihedral> just spare the details will ya
16:18:20  <TrueBrain> no pictures?
16:18:22  <TrueBrain> darn!
16:18:32  <Smoovious> try and take video of it when ya hurl
16:18:33  <dihedral> knock yourself out
16:18:41  <eekee> lololol
16:21:19  <TrueBrain> okay, I tossed it out
16:21:33  <kaan> quitter! :P
16:21:59  <kaan> so what else hides in the back where you found that?
16:22:14  <Smoovious> find a !tasty spot?
16:22:15  <TrueBrain> that was all
16:22:19  <TrueBrain> cleaning the fridge :)
16:22:31  <TrueBrain> only thing I have left is a 3 months old cheese
16:22:38  <TrueBrain> but it was too young when I bought it
16:22:49  <kaan> cheese is good
16:23:13  <TrueBrain> it sure is!
16:23:20  <dihedral> TrueBrain: cleanning out the fridge usually does not mean you have to eat it all too
16:23:38  <TrueBrain> dihedral: the content of my fridge is pretty harmless
16:23:54  <dihedral> what content the is not?
16:23:55  <Smoovious> usually a bad time for random snacking too
16:24:01  <dihedral> lol
16:24:51  <Smoovious> sometimes I find something so old, and can't figure out why  I would have ever bought it in the first place, much less when
16:25:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> i do not like cheese...
16:26:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> except when baked on pizza or similar...
16:26:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> damn, now i am hungry :)
16:26:46  <kaan> me too
16:26:52  <kaan> i better get something
16:27:38  <TrueBrain> kaan: look luck with the back of your fridge :)
16:28:13  <kaan> lucky me i cleaned it out yesterday
16:28:53  <kaan> i think it will be pate on bread :D
16:28:58  <TrueBrain> enjoy :)
16:29:30  <kaan> or maybe canned fish :)
16:32:03  <dihedral> radio just said there was a tornado in frankfurt!!
16:32:05  <dihedral> hmmm
16:32:08  <dihedral> interesting
16:33:16  <Smoovious> would love to go weather-chasing one of these days
16:33:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> there was a tornado right in front of my window a while ago...
16:34:00  <dihedral> r u in frankfurt?
16:35:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> no...
16:35:14  <dihedral> well then
16:35:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> also... which frankfurt?
16:35:18  <dihedral> :-)
16:35:24  <dihedral> main
16:35:47  <dihedral> i guess they would have explicitly stated it otherwise ;-)
16:35:59  <dihedral> 'where do you live then?
16:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> about half way between both :)
16:36:33  <dihedral> lol
16:36:37  <TrueBrain> so between France and Germany
16:36:40  <TrueBrain> Luxemburg? :p
16:36:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> TrueBrain: ??
16:36:58  <TrueBrain> haha :)
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16:39:04  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause3: old and bad joke from my friends :p
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16:40:52  <dihedral> that luxemburg was between the 2 frankfurts??
16:40:58  <TrueBrain> yeah
16:41:01  <dihedral> hu
16:41:08  <dihedral> i can feel a giggle rising ...
16:41:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't get it...
16:41:11  <dihedral> ah
16:41:12  <dihedral> no
16:41:14  <dihedral> sorry
16:41:26  <dihedral> was a sneeze
16:41:27  <TrueBrain> some friends of my are very bad in where to place what
16:41:34  <dihedral> ah
16:41:36  <dihedral> ok
16:41:41  <dihedral> then that would make sense
16:41:45  <TrueBrain> so hearing Frankfurt always makes me smile
16:41:50  <dihedral> :-)
16:41:58  <dihedral> ^ like that
16:42:15  <TrueBrain> (a friend said: I was going from Frankfurt to Frankfurt, it was fun! The other one said: so you came through Luxemburg?)
16:42:28  <dihedral> he
16:42:30  <dihedral> lol
16:42:49  <dihedral> if they were american you could excuse it
16:43:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> # Weil Frankfurt so groƟ ist, teilt man's in zwei ein
16:43:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> # in Frankfurt an der Oder und Frankfurt am Main
16:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> (popular german drinking tune)
16:43:50  <TrueBrain> why am I not suprised?
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16:48:07  <dihedral> :-)
16:50:31  <Ammler> dihedral: does or will your OpenTTDLib also support grfs?
16:50:59  <dihedral> working on it
16:51:04  <Ammler> cool :)
16:51:28  <dihedral> aparantly it will be bound to fail ( or not relyable acording to Rubidium)
16:51:31  <dihedral> but i shall try
16:51:47  <Smoovious> what is OpenTTDLib anyways?
16:51:59  <dihedral> php5 classes to query games
16:52:01  <Ammler> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=32659
16:52:32  <Smoovious> oh right... so you could put various state info on a page
16:52:32  <Ammler> will it also be possible to extract the infos from a save?
16:52:34  <dihedral> although yesterday evening i made a set of php4 ones
16:52:46  *** Markkisen [~hestporr@h22n1fls301o1037.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:52:49  <dihedral> check out http://openttdlib.dihedral.de/example2.php
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16:53:32  <dihedral> TrueBrain: would it be possible to let ottd know the timestamp of when the current game was started
16:53:37  <dihedral> as in the unix timestamp
16:53:40  <TrueBrain> no
16:53:51  <dihedral> why?
16:54:04  <TrueBrain> calculating that yourself takes as much effort as doing it ingame
16:54:07  <TrueBrain> while we never need it ingame
16:54:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> btw, dihedral, sure with "tornado" they didn't mean the military plane?
16:54:50  <dihedral> could the game send the map seed on the FIND_SERVERS query?
16:55:11  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause3: they mentioned that it tore of some roof's and uprooted some trees
16:55:16  <dihedral> and that noone was harmed
16:55:24  <dihedral> so i dont think it was the plane :-D
16:55:48  <Smoovious> unless it was flying, really, really, low
16:55:53  <dihedral> TrueBrain: i am looking for some data that is constant during the cause of one game, but different in the next game
16:56:01  <dihedral> i.e. after a newgame command for example
16:56:10  <TrueBrain> there is nothing I guess
16:56:18  <dihedral> the random seed?
16:56:28  <TrueBrain> not gauranteed
16:56:35  <dihedral> but likely?
16:56:37  <Ammler> dihedral: is it also possible to fetch the data from a save?
16:56:39  <Smoovious> PID?
16:56:57  <dihedral> Ammler: i process udp packets
16:57:15  <dihedral> the pid will be the same Smoovious until the game is quit and restarted
16:57:54  <Smoovious> yeah, thought that was basically what you were after
16:58:08  <dihedral> i want data that will change on each new game
16:58:21  <dihedral> i.e game reaches end of game date and a new one starts
16:59:15  <Ammler> (the ingame date?)
16:59:21  <dihedral> great
16:59:23  <dihedral> yeah
16:59:31  <Ammler> :)
16:59:34  <dihedral> as if you start at 1946-01-01
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16:59:45  <dihedral> every new game will give the same date
17:00:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> but if you query often enough, the new date will be lower than the previous date...
17:01:00  <dihedral> server goes down
17:01:05  <dihedral> dont get any data
17:01:11  <dihedral> server is loaded with a save game
17:01:24  <dihedral> date is later than the one i already have
17:01:34  <dihedral> and i would assume i have the same game
17:02:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> so?
17:02:25  <dihedral> i am hoping to do some mining
17:02:46  <dihedral> store every move in a database
17:03:07  <dihedral> as in when did who join which game :-D
17:03:22  <dihedral> which company, performance of that company
17:03:24  <dihedral> etc.
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17:14:48  <dihedral> if i set the game to never delete save games
17:15:03  <dihedral> are they timestamped?
17:15:05  *** MarkSlap [~hestporr@h22n1fls301o1037.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:15:18  <dihedral> with the game date or the real timestamp
17:15:27  <dihedral> na - forget it
17:15:31  <dihedral> that is a nasty thought
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17:22:16  <Smoovious> well, maybe if you use the autosaves... .. .
17:24:48  <stillunknown> Did anyone know HandleLocomotiveSmokeCloud() is a bug resource user?
17:25:35  <stillunknown> *big
17:26:06  <peter1138> profiling unoptimized builds, eh?
17:26:27  <stillunknown> No.
17:28:22  <stillunknown> peter1138: But seriously, it seems to represent a lot of the vehicle load.
17:29:21  <stillunknown> 35-40% if i had to guess/
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17:29:45  <Smoovious> but what's a steamer without smoke?
17:29:55  <stillunknown> The game i tested uses maglev.
17:29:59  <eekee> exactly, lol
17:30:00  <peter1138> stationary :D
17:30:04  <eekee> hehe
17:30:04  <Noldo> stillunknown: what does it do?
17:30:18  <stillunknown> Noldo: that function?
17:30:25  <stillunknown> or something else
17:30:28  <Smoovious> oh... well, if you're getting smoke on a maglev, sounds like a maintenance issue... run to depot more often? :P
17:30:34  <Noldo> stillunknown: that function?
17:30:40  <eekee> hehehehe
17:30:43  <stillunknown> stillunknown: what does it do?
17:30:46  <stillunknown> define it
17:30:52  <TrueBrain> so now it is time to play a bit OpenTTD :)
17:30:59  <eekee> fnord!
17:31:18  <stillunknown> Maybe a patch option to disable smoke effects on all but steamers is sensible.
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17:31:41  <Noldo> plaah
17:31:47  <stillunknown> No, that won't help, since it needs to determine if there are steamers in the first place.
17:31:50  <dihedral> what happened to diagonal road crossings?
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17:32:17  <eekee> stillunknown: OTTD already disables smoke on maglev / monorail, & besides, I'm sure some people like the diesel smoke. I do
17:32:43  <stillunknown> eekee: i think iterating through a train every tick is a bad idea
17:33:17  <eekee> O.o o.O isn't that done anyway? Anyway, don't assume, profile. Assuming makes an ass out of u & me :p
17:33:33  <Smoovious> ...
17:33:34  * Phazorx wonders what is he doign wrong
17:33:45  * eekee puts away his openttd game & reboots to activate a new kernel. won't be back until the nvidia driver works again, lol
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17:33:59  <Phazorx> i'm trying to launch ottd within gdb
17:34:06  <Phazorx> binary seems to work fine by itself
17:34:15  <Phazorx> but in gdb after targeting it just exits
17:35:12  <stillunknown> tried: make run-gdb
17:35:40  <stillunknown> That should rule some user errors.
17:35:48  <Phazorx> ughm...
17:36:33  <Phazorx> $ make run-gdb
17:36:34  <Phazorx> target exec openttd.exe
17:36:39  <Phazorx> r openttd.exe
17:36:47  <glx> why target?
17:36:57  <Phazorx> Program exited normally
17:37:03  <Phazorx> glx: i tihnk it was in manual ?
17:37:23  <glx> just type "r"
17:37:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> just type "run <arguments>" in gdb
17:37:33  <glx> folowed by args
17:37:39  <glx> like r -g
17:38:55  <Phazorx> that worked till segfault on 1st click
17:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> then type bt
17:40:07  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause3: i was trying to point out that it wasnt quite the result i expected
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17:40:57  <eekee> yays
17:41:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> Phazorx: then you did something very wrong
17:41:12  <dihedral> well done eekee
17:41:14  <dihedral> wb
17:41:21  <eekee> :d ty hehe ^^
17:41:27  <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause3: it didnt like server from config
17:41:55  <Noldo> stillunknown: it should use the CHANCE functions to select which vehicles to puff with
17:42:23  <Phazorx> cant listen :(
17:42:54  <Phazorx> NetworkUDPSocketHandler::Listen(unsigned, unsigned short, bool) (this=0x1e48890, host=0, port=0, broadcast=1)
17:43:13  <eekee> Guys, remember these locos puffed fine on 486s, it's probably the blitter that needs optimising or somehting
17:44:03  <Phazorx> eekee: i dont remember having 1000 trains or 2048^2 maps on 486
17:44:12  <eekee> well... :)
17:44:32  <Phazorx> and i do remember terrible lag on modem play :)
17:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> my TT games extremely lagged on my 386 DX 25 after like 10 years
17:46:07  <Phazorx> i never had 386 :(
17:46:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> it took months before i actually got to the first diesel engine
17:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> and i never got an electric engine before i played it on a 468 (DX2-60 or so)
17:47:42  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: you are an old guy
17:48:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> i was like 10 when TT came out
17:48:20  <Phazorx> Ammler: look who's talking :)
17:48:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> my father bought his brand new 486, and gave me his old 386
17:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> at the same time he brought a gaming pack which contained the TT demo
17:49:29  <Phazorx> anyway... i'd like to debug the issue i have but so far i can not get to it
17:49:31  <Phazorx> http://pastie.caboo.se/72896
17:49:33  <Phazorx> any ideas?
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17:50:21  <Luukland> Heya All, how can I save my scenario without copying the difficulty settings?
17:51:31  <Luukland> (someone here :P ??)
17:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> errr... i would think starting a scenario should overwrite the stored difficulty setting
17:52:16  <Phazorx> cant you modify dficulty and save it as a game ?
17:52:26  <TrueBrain> lol, transfer rules: 10k pax waiting at a station, and I can't get them moved away :)
17:52:52  <Luukland> Phazorx sure
17:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> why not?
17:53:02  <stillunknown> Is it possible to have a function in a subclass, and use that function without a empty virtual function in the base class?
17:53:44  <Luukland> but i mean, if someone wants to play my scenario, can he/she choose whith which settings she/he would like to play....
17:53:54  <Luukland> or is that not possible
17:54:03  <Noldo> stillunknown: not from baseclass pointer
17:54:11  <kaan> stillunknown: i dont know c++ that well but it should be possible i think
17:54:14  <Phazorx> glx can you take a look at it plz http://pastie.caboo.se/72896
17:54:24  <Phazorx> it should be something windows related and basic
17:54:31  <Noldo> well there is dynamic_cast, but that's not very neat way to do anything
17:54:40  <glx> Phazorx: what rev?
17:55:01  <Phazorx> 10170
17:55:27  <Phazorx> i dount it it ottd related
17:55:41  <peter1138>  17.59      3.92     3.92     1000     0.00     0.00  CheckCargoPacketLeaks()
17:55:42  <peter1138>  11.57      6.50     2.58   511323     0.00     0.00  HandleLocomotiveSmokeCloud(Vehicle const*)
17:55:45  <peter1138>   3.99      7.39     0.89 12869237     0.00     0.00  BeginVehicleMove(Vehicle*)
17:55:48  <peter1138> heh
17:55:50  <peter1138> that is pretty excessive
17:56:38  <Phazorx> so steam is expensive on both gamecash and cpu?
17:56:49  <Luukland> does someone here live on the island Jamaica?
17:57:02  <Luukland> :P
17:57:13  <Luukland> i need some info for my scenario :P
17:57:33  <glx> Phazorx: you started a server?
17:57:47  <Phazorx> glx clicked on multiplayer button on 1st screen
17:58:05  <Phazorx> then find server
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18:04:25  <Luukland> If i would like to upload my scenario to the OTTD forum, what should the difficulty settings be?
18:04:31  <glx> Phazorx: it segfaulted for me too :/
18:05:01  <Smoovious> Luukland... that's up to the one creating the scenario. :P
18:05:12  <Luukland> ok :)
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18:06:42  <stillunknown> peter1138: normally it seems hidden in the train controller, but once i started seperating and changing things i noticed it
18:06:56  <peter1138> stillunknown: i just removed the static.
18:06:58  <stillunknown> Wondering what i had done wrong, i noticed the controller was light load now.
18:06:59  <Phazorx> glx: in mingw?
18:07:20  <glx> yes in gdb
18:08:01  <Phazorx> so... no gdb ?
18:08:37  <glx> maybe a bug fixed in newer rev as it doesn't segfault in r10295
18:08:48  <Phazorx> hmm... that suxx
18:08:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's funny... usually bugs like that disappear when adding debug stuff :p
18:09:12  <Phazorx> reason why i started doing it - i get random CTDs from coopers box which is on 170
18:09:18  <glx> probably a memory curruption bug
18:10:43  <peter1138> yeah, uh, always debug using the current head revision...
18:10:47  <stillunknown> Phazorx: In case i didn't tell you a while ago, train load scales by number of trains, train length and train speed
18:10:53  <peter1138> it's kinda pointless otherwise
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18:11:47  <stillunknown> peter1138: An easy reduction can be gained from only doing smoke checks on engines.
18:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, it might be a bug that is just more hidden, not actually fixed
18:12:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> stillunknown: but powered wagons might also be able to smoke
18:12:33  <Phazorx> stillunknown: length in cars or tiles ?
18:12:42  <stillunknown> cars
18:12:58  <Phazorx> does it matter if they are secondary engines?
18:13:36  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause3: But not in an enclosed public place after July 1
18:14:26  <Noldo> what is the point of powered wagons and differentiating them from engines?
18:15:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> Noldo: engines may be run by themselves, powered wagons are just regular wagons with an override
18:15:39  <Noldo> ok
18:16:26  <stillunknown> Phazorx: the bulk from the load comes from moving single vehicles
18:16:56  <stillunknown> ofcource many very short trains vs one long train will always have a difference
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18:19:43  <stillunknown> Phazorx: that's why 500 normal vs 1000 maglev trains is such a big difference
18:20:54  <peter1138> well
18:20:55  <UnderBuilder> what should we do with the old newgrf system? having those 8bpp graphics with 32bpp will result in a not so nice contrast
18:21:25  <stillunknown> 8bpp will always be primary system
18:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> UnderBuilder: why would that need a change?
18:21:42  <UnderBuilder> newgrf is only 8bpp
18:22:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> newgrf will always stay 8bpp
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18:22:31  <UnderBuilder> the trouble will come when the 32bpp graphics come out
18:23:02  <Luukland> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=600436#600436 << Comments please :)
18:23:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> why would that be a trouble? the primary 32bpp gaphics will resemble the 8bpp graphics as close as possible
18:23:32  <peter1138> oh yeah
18:23:39  <peter1138> you know the method of using 32bpp graphics at the moment?
18:23:44  <peter1138> that works for newgrfs too...
18:24:39  <peter1138> stillunknown: do you think it's possible to have only one 'movement step' for high speed vehicles? currently of course it checks many things for each step...
18:25:25  <stillunknown> peter1138: i've thought about that, but i first need to finish the clean up i'm doing
18:25:34  <stillunknown> before even thinking about that
18:25:42  <stillunknown> thinking = trying
18:26:33  <stillunknown> Something along the lines of doing movement largely on a tile basis (for non-branching track) may be possible.
18:29:24  <stillunknown> peter1138: your thoughts on this http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=600438#600438 would be appreciated
18:29:27  <peter1138> more likely is just skipping some checks
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18:31:59  <stillunknown> peter1138: have you looked at that thread?
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18:33:06  <peter1138> looking now
18:33:35  <UnderBuilder> I thought that sergey was banned
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18:42:42  <Luukland> btw. i am still searchin' for 7 people who want to sign in for the OTTD tournament, i already have 25 souls :P
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19:18:29  <stillunknown> Since when can some engines not haul freight cars?
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19:24:19  <Smoovious> like, which ones
19:24:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> the ICE3 for example
19:24:55  <stillunknown> AEM7 in the north american renewal set
19:25:12  <Smoovious> is  that an Amtrak engine?
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19:25:32  <stillunknown> It did autoreplace it, but manually buying or cloning is a no go.
19:25:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> it would be a stupid idea anyway
19:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> stillunknown: then that is an autoreplace bug
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19:26:51  <stillunknown> Also i can attach one freight car to the engine, but not more.
19:28:17  <Smoovious> not finding it... which climate? and do you have any parameters set?
19:29:23  <stillunknown> No parameters, artic climate.
19:30:57  <Smoovious> I find  no AEM7... sure you're talking about the right GRF?
19:30:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> Smoovious: i think brianetta had NARS in his newgrf package... http://ppcis.org/standard
19:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> oh, you meant the engine, not the grf
19:31:58  <Smoovious> right
19:32:10  <Smoovious> I got NARS loaded and looking... there is no AEM7
19:32:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> i can't help with that, i never used it
19:32:51  <stillunknown> Sorry, it's USSET 0.86
19:33:19  <Smoovious> uh huh
19:33:42  <stillunknown> Look after 1990.
19:34:19  <TrueBrain> la al lalalalala la lal al al l al al l al al l al al l al a al l a a ala
19:35:49  <Sacro> hmmm
19:35:51  <Sacro> svn might be broken
19:36:08  <TrueBrain> hmm, you now have 'sv' and 'n'?
19:36:12  <Smoovious> yeah, it looks like a bug... you shouldn't be  able to put that first freight car on it
19:36:28  <stillunknown> Can newgrf contain text messages?
19:36:43  <Smoovious> the AEM7 is for Amtrack passenger service on electrified rail...
19:36:48  <Smoovious> never designed for freight
19:37:03  <Smoovious> Sacro... broken how?
19:37:36  <Sacro> Smoovious: reporting a strange version number
19:38:08  <Smoovious> whats the #?
19:38:19  <Sacro> ==> newer revision detected: 10296
19:38:19  <Sacro> omanian
19:38:19  <Sacro> ussian
19:38:24  <Sacro> thats not right :\
19:38:43  <Smoovious> <DorpsGek> Commit by miham :: r10296 /trunk/src/lang (12 files) (2007-06-23 18:35:37 UTC)
19:38:52  <Smoovious> submitted a bunch of language updates
19:39:16  <Sacro> svn log $_svntrunk --limit 1 | sed -n 's/^r\([^ ]*\) .*$//p'
19:39:51  <stillunknown> Can newgrf contain error messages?
19:40:00  <Sacro> think the regex is screwy
19:40:22  <Smoovious> I'm so rusty on regex's... couldn't tell   ya without a manual in front o f me
19:40:42  <TrueBrain> we need PBS :p
19:40:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> stillunknown: yes, they can
19:41:02  <Smoovious> almost done... PBS will be up in about an hour
19:41:11  <Sacro> Smoovious: orly?
19:41:15  <Smoovious> no
19:41:19  <Sacro> D:
19:41:21  <Smoovious> :P
19:42:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> i had an idea of implementing PBS by adding virtual (invisible) wagons in front of the engine
19:42:24  <Sacro> ooh thats a clever idea
19:42:31  <TrueBrain> haha, very funny idea indeed :)
19:42:39  <Prof_Frink> What we need is signals between tiles
19:42:55  <eekee> We do, lol :D
19:43:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> then you do not have to store a vehicle id in the tile, you can just look up vehicle by tile (hash?)
19:44:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> so it would suffice to have a reserved bit in the map
19:45:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> and the infrastructure to handle vehicles is already there, only needs very few improvements
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19:46:02  <Phazorx> is 295 not working due to languages?
19:46:17  <TrueBrain> hmm, I am thinking about the idea of Eddi|zuHause3...
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19:47:33  <TrueBrain> it means you need to remove all signals all together
19:47:54  <stillunknown> And you can never turn after the invisible wagons.
19:47:58  <TrueBrain> and allow trains to ride up till they find an other train
19:47:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, signals will still be there... you need some place to stop expanding the vehicle chain
19:48:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> if the virtual vehicle chain gets shorter than the braking distance, you extend it to the next signal
19:48:58  <Smoovious> mount a long stick on the front of  the train, seated against t he throttle control so when you get too close to another train you stop... just like in Money Train
19:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> along the path that the pathfinder returns from the front virtual vehicle
19:49:06  <eekee> LOL
19:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you cannot extend the vehicle chain due to blocked path, order the train to stop at the previous signal
19:50:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> which you can do, because it is within stopping distance
19:50:25  <eekee> will this result in more "cannot remove track, train in the way" errors?
19:50:38  <Phazorx> hmm... i could be doing soemthing wrong
19:50:46  <stillunknown> There are situations were your logic will fail Eddi.
19:50:52  <Smoovious> it would also enable a more realistic stopping distance too... variable length according to the power and speed of the train, and the  weight/inertia...
19:50:54  <Phazorx> but i just did a svn co -r10295
19:50:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> this has the side effect that the "reserved path" can never change, because the vehicles are already there
19:50:59  <Phazorx> and it comes with no languages
19:51:00  <TrueBrain> eekee: which in fact resolves all problems we had with modifiying the track when it is PBS reserved :)
19:51:11  <eekee> Doh! XD
19:51:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> also, you cannot modify tiles that have a virtual vehicle on it
19:51:22  <eekee> Doh doh doh XD;
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19:51:38  <Smoovious> 10296 is the language commit, Phazorx
19:51:42  <TrueBrain> which, agian is a very nice idea
19:51:52  <TrueBrain> as it resolves all the problems :)
19:51:52  <eekee> fair enough, but I'll have to change my emergency track surgury habbits, lol
19:51:54  <Phazorx> so latest nighty is not working?
19:52:07  <stillunknown> But please, call it something else than vehicle.
19:52:10  <Smoovious> and if a train is stopped, there would be no reserved track ahead
19:52:26  <stillunknown> Or at least a new type vehicle.
19:52:44  <Smoovious> just call it stopping distance
19:53:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> stillunknown: the whole idea builds on the reuse of existing vehicle code
19:53:28  <TrueBrain> downside of all this is, that for any attempt, you need to understand one of the PFs.....
19:53:30  <eekee> "Cannot remove track, approaching train could not stop in time" How's that?
19:53:49  <Smoovious> "Cannot remove reserved track."
19:53:58  <stillunknown> Assumptions about pathfinders is a bad idea.
19:54:10  <eekee> "reserved" makes me wonder what it's reserved for
19:54:22  <Sacro> h
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19:54:27  <Smoovious> that's what a learning  curve climb is for
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19:55:04  <eekee> I need extra tractive effort to tackle learning climbs
19:55:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> TrueBrain: why? if you want to attach a vehicle at the front, and it is on a switch tile, you run the pathfinder, and place the vehicle on the returned trackbit, that should be totally pathfinder agnostic (in the 'stupid' attempt, the pathfinder might later be tweaked to give penalty to reserved tiles)
19:55:14  <Rubidium> 18:51 < dihedral> aparantly it will be bound to fail ( or not relyable acording to Rubidium) <- when you have server side caching it'll generally work ok
19:55:15  <Smoovious> if signals that have a branch after it, were set to default-red until an approaching train gets near it and it clears a route for it... .. .
19:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> pathfinder will always be run from the front vehicle, it will just not be the engine anymore
19:56:13  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause3: even so I don't like that attempt in detail, you still have the part: "and place the vehicle on the returned trackbit", which means knowning the PF :p
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19:57:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> TrueBrain: why? that is exactly what the moving code currently does, it removes the vehicle from the old place, and places it on the return value of the pathfinde
19:57:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> just that now you would not remove the old vehicle anymore, just add a new one
19:58:17  <TrueBrain> you only forget that it won't be helping for any PBS alike thing, as the signals will be red
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19:58:40  <Smoovious> like... say a signal only has one route to the next signal, it operates as ABS, and defaults to a proceed state... and if it has more than one route to the next signal (meaning 2 signals),  then it defaults to a stop state... when a train approaches it, and no other train is cleared to that track, then the signal changes to proceed
19:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> that is the next step, signals will always be red, unless there is a virtual vehicle on it
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19:59:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> when there is a virtual vehicle on the signal tile, it means the train successfully reserved a path through it
19:59:41  <Smoovious> well, assuming you want that kind of signalling to automatically become the appropriate one
20:00:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, all signals should be PBS...
20:00:22  <stillunknown> Won't that put a considerable load on the vehicle hashmap?
20:00:43  <stillunknown> A few junctions ok, but everywere, that can't be cheap.
20:01:38  <stillunknown> Also realize that the vehicle map does not have the resolution needed for this task.
20:01:42  <Smoovious> well, ya gotta choose... dumb signals that don't think much, like we got now... or smart signals...
20:01:57  <Smoovious> oh bah
20:01:58  <dihedral> Rubidium: thanks that is good to know
20:02:15  <Smoovious> leave them alone... if they wanna try it let em try it...
20:02:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, you can make those virtual vehicles as long as the tile... would reduce the amount of vehicles
20:02:38  <stillunknown> What kind of resolution would you have for the vehicle map?
20:02:51  * Hendikins would be quite content with dumb signals unless otherwise specified.
20:02:57  <UnderBuilder> loading indicators are in trunk? from when?
20:03:08  <stillunknown> A day, maybe two.
20:03:08  <Smoovious> yeah, you don't need to have smart signals everywhere
20:03:39  <stillunknown> Still, the vehiclemap currently has a resolution of 128x128.
20:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> UnderBuilder: 'svn log | grep -i -C2 indicator'?
20:03:50  <Smoovious> most signals  just behave as ABS signals anyways
20:04:11  <Hendikins> I'd have very limited use for "smart" signals. I'm used to working the dumb ones pretty well.
20:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> stillunknown: you will not need to look up the vehicle often
20:04:28  <Smoovious> you'll adjust. :P
20:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> you have the reserved bit for the tile for an easy check
20:04:45  <Smoovious> I was used to doing without pre-signals... I got over it. :D
20:06:25  <Hendikins> I'd probably only find "smart" signals particularly useful early in the game before I could afford to grade separate all my junctions.
20:07:02  <Sacro> Smoovious: it took me aaaaaaaages to get used to 2 way signals
20:07:06  <stillunknown> Eddi: Every time you want to enter such a junction you must check all tiles in your path.
20:07:06  <stillunknown> At a low resolution that's going to be ugly.
20:07:06  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:07:06  <Sacro> er,,
20:07:08  <Sacro> 1 way even
20:07:27  <Smoovious> well, that's up to you
20:07:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> another optimisation: the virtual vehicles do not actually have to move, when the engine moves, just shorten the vehicle in front of the engine, if the engine leaves the tile, the vehicle will have length 0, get deleted, and the engine attached to the next vehicle
20:08:08  <Smoovious> there's some tight spaces to get into tho... especially if there are other companies at the same place
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20:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> if such a vehicle gets deleted, check the breaking distance (length of the vehicle chain can be cached value)
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20:09:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> braking distance should be an easy function of cached weight and current speed
20:09:30  <Smoovious> maybe up/downhill too
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20:09:48  <Smoovious> # of engines will help add to braking effort too
20:10:06  <Sacro> and what kind of engine
20:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> usually all wagons have brakes...
20:10:33  <Sacro> and the UKRS brake van!
20:10:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> but that is a decision that can be made much later...
20:11:00  <Smoovious> yeah, but multiple engines increase how fast you can trip the brakes... plus active braking from the traction wheels
20:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> tripping brakes should always be instant...
20:11:49  <Smoovious> 1 engine would take 3 times  as long to brake, as 3 engines would
20:11:53  <Smoovious> no way
20:11:56  <Sacro> Smoovious: not true
20:12:04  <Smoovious> it takes  time  to bleed out the air
20:12:19  <Smoovious> well, depending on the brakes
20:12:21  <Sacro> it depends on the weight of the engine
20:12:23  <Sacro> and its braking power
20:12:35  <Smoovious> for automatic braking with the traction wheels, yes
20:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> Smoovious: in germany, brakes are usually pneumatic, the brakes are under pressure initially, and if someone hits the emergency brake, pressure is removed and the brakes hit
20:13:03  <Sacro> thats how a westinghouse brake works
20:13:39  <Smoovious> yeah, that's how the vast majority of the brakes on US rolling stock is now too... but some still use the pressurized brakes to apply
20:14:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd consider that pretty unsafe...
20:14:20  <Smoovious> (and yes, I'm aware I was getting that part backwards  initially)... I was talking more about dynamic braking
20:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm gone watching something... have a nice discussion :)
20:15:40  <Smoovious> anyways, the longer a train is, the longer it takes for the pressure to drop through the line for all of t he brakes to engage
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20:17:07  <peter1138> what's all this crap about virtual wagons?
20:18:04  <Smoovious> it is for shipping programs
20:19:18  <stillunknown> peter1138: did you have a look?
20:19:29  <stillunknown> at the patch
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20:20:19  <peter1138> ages ago, yes
20:20:48  <stillunknown> Odd definition of ages.
20:25:27  <Prof_Frink> stillunknown: You overestimate his attention spa-ooh a squirrel!
20:26:26  <kaan> I had a look at it, but i gave up cause im too tired
20:26:45  <kaan> I like the idea though
20:29:54  <kaan> general question: how much space on your HD is used by pr0n?
20:30:08  <peter1138> 0
20:30:27  <Sacro> kaan: about 12GB i think
20:30:29  <Smoovious> 80%
20:30:35  <kaan> huh? well people really are gone for the night
20:30:47  <kaan> oh, there you are ;)
20:31:06  <kaan> hmmm, i better find out myself now that i brought it up
20:31:08  <Smoovious> well, 70% now
20:31:41  <eekee> lol
20:31:48  <kaan> hmm, 28GB
20:31:59  <eekee> I feel clean, lol
20:31:59  <kaan> good thing i got that extra HD
20:32:15  <peter1138> why do you have so much?
20:32:23  <peter1138> what do you do with it? rewatch it?
20:32:29  <Smoovious> small hd's?
20:32:32  <kaan> i forget to delete it when i stop laughing
20:32:56  <eekee> $ du -s .private/
20:32:56  <eekee> 100M    .private/
20:32:56  <eekee> And I thought I was so dirty...
20:32:58  <kaan> oh there is a few that i keep for good
20:33:00  <Smoovious> I downloaded more  than  I've looked at... most I have no clue what it is
20:33:10  <Smoovious> gradually getting it cleared out
20:35:26  <peter1138> Waiting: 9,225 passengers :o
20:35:29  <kaan> it all went bad when i found the pirate bay
20:37:10  <TrueBrain> why does playing OpenTTD at a certain time becomes boring?
20:37:11  <kaan> eekee: why the hidden folder? mine is \My Documents\Pr0n\
20:37:35  <eekee> eh, friends...
20:37:40  <peter1138> TrueBrain: cos i never finished my pbs implementation!
20:37:45  <eekee> hehe
20:37:48  <TrueBrain> you have one too?
20:37:49  <kaan> TrueBrain: thats is a very broad question, splease narrow it down a bit
20:38:07  <peter1138> TrueBrain: only very vaguely, heh
20:38:15  <kaan> eekee: oh, I see ...
20:38:19  <peter1138> i think i got as far as track reservation ;p
20:38:20  <TrueBrain> I have seen 3 ideas in the last 24 hours :p
20:38:26  <peter1138> but really there isn't much to it
20:38:42  <TrueBrain> nope
20:38:51  <peter1138> although virtual wagons sounds like a stupid idea
20:39:02  <TrueBrain> for a static PBS, yes, but not for other types of PBS
20:40:40  <kaan> just out of curiosity: what is the two biggest issues concerning PBS?
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20:40:49  <peter1138> someone writing it
20:40:57  <Smoovious> well
20:41:01  <TrueBrain> staying correct after track modification
20:41:23  <kaan> hmm, ok
20:41:26  <peter1138> if (reserved) donotallowmodification
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20:42:16  <kaan> peter1138: or let the train crash when it runs out of expected track, then they will learn
20:42:26  <kaan> :P
20:43:06  <glx> and don't mess the system when a train decides to reverse
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20:43:44  <peter1138> i still think tekky's stuff has potential
20:43:52  <kaan> very much so
20:43:54  <peter1138> even if it'll confuse some people, heh
20:44:18  <kaan> but there should probably be a "light" version for the peeps
20:44:30  <Smoovious> naw
20:44:53  <Smoovious> keeps the riff-raff out of the advanced games. ;)
20:46:41  <kaan> well i havent looked too hard at that part of the code, but wouldnt it help if the signal code was seperated from the rest?
20:48:09  <Sacro> yes, i plan on ripping the signal code out
20:49:01  <kaan> ok, sounds nice, hvae you planned when?
20:49:07  <kaan> have*
20:50:22  <dihedral> g'night ladies
20:50:36  <kaan> night dihedral
20:50:38  <dihedral> i need my bed
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21:12:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10298 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs):
21:12:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#903]: show the subdirectory below the default data directory in this
21:12:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: filename in the newgrf list. The directory was removed in r9560 because then it
21:12:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: used to full path instead of the path relative to the data directory, but since
21:12:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: the inclusion of "search paths" that is not necessary anymore.
21:13:29  <Hendikins> Heh, go CityRail, do the media release about a proposed fare increase on a Saturday when nobody is looking...
21:14:31  <Smoovious> :D
21:17:01  <Smoovious> um... Rubidium... what does "This will duplicate removal will not be removed." mean? and... if I have 2 identical NewGRF's in different places, I'd really like to see em so I can do something about it
21:18:59  <Rubidium> remove the first will and the sentence will make sense
21:19:31  <Smoovious> ok... but would still want to see the duplicates...
21:19:57  <Smoovious> otherwise I'd need another program to compare the ID's and MD5's to figure out which one(s) I can safely delete
21:21:20  <Smoovious> it was very handy for that
21:21:22  <Rubidium> that will become very ugly and unmaintainable
21:21:54  <Smoovious> with 4  installations of openttd, I'm constantly copying and moving GRF's back and forth, until it is so messy it is unmanageable
21:22:11  <Rubidium> that's what "search paths" solves
21:22:17  <Smoovious> being ugly is the point of seeing them... I can see the ugly, and fix it
21:22:19  <Rubidium> you only need 1 place for all your grfs
21:22:23  <Smoovious> it doesn't solve i t tho
21:22:30  <peter1138> just put all your extra grfs (including trg*) in ~/.openttd/data :)
21:22:38  <Smoovious> except lots of GRF's have the same name
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21:23:02  <peter1138> or subdirs of data
21:23:06  <peter1138> what's the problem?
21:23:11  <Smoovious> I moved them out of ../data intentionalaly to keep them  seperate from the grf's that have to stay with the game
21:23:16  <Rubidium> Smoovious: the "problem" is that when you put a list of files in openttf.cfg, that files will also be duplicate in the list (AFAIK)
21:23:42  <Smoovious> oh, the old NewGRF display behavior changed so I can't use it to
21:23:44  <Smoovious> YES!
21:24:16  <Smoovious> that's what I want... I want them to be duplicate, so I can  see the duplicates, and where thhe duplicates are, so I know which one I can delete without losing one
21:24:41  <Smoovious> I got 5 av8w grf's  right now...
21:24:47  <Smoovious> all different versions
21:25:02  <Rubidium> Smoovious: what I meant is: all files you put in the [newgrf] section of openttd.cfg would turn up as duplicates in the list
21:25:04  <Smoovious> I did have some duplicates I removed before
21:25:13  <Smoovious> yes, I know
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21:25:20  <Smoovious> and what I meant is... I WANT IT TO DO THAT
21:25:25  * Smoovious sighs.
21:25:39  <Rubidium> WHY do you want files that are only ONCE on your disk to show up TWICE?
21:25:56  <Smoovious> ifi it finds a NewGRF, even if it is a duplicate, display it in the list, so I can see that it is a duplicate instead of a different version
21:26:17  <peter1138> Smoovious: you are barking up the wrong tree
21:26:19  <Smoovious> I don't want files that are on my disk once, to show up twice... I want files that are on my disk twice, to show up twice
21:26:22  <Rubidium> Smoovious: you really don't get me
21:26:35  <Rubidium> really listen to what I say!
21:26:43  <Smoovious> ok, go ahead... try again
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21:26:51  <glx> Smoovious: put all newgrf in one place :)
21:26:55  <Smoovious> no
21:27:12  <peter1138> heh
21:27:16  <Rubidium> IF a newgrf is listed in the [newgrf] or [newgrf-static] section of openttd.cfg it WILL show those files you listed in openttd.cfg as DUPLICATES when they are not duplicates
21:27:18  <glx> no need to have them in all openttd dis
21:27:40  <Smoovious> will it  show them as duplicates, if they are duplicates?
21:28:25  <Rubidium> yes BUT ALSO WHEN THEY ARE NOT DUPLICATES!!!
21:28:40  * peter1138 has 4 pb_viaduct.grfs listed
21:28:43  <peter1138> 2 are the same
21:28:46  <peter1138> so what's the problem?
21:28:48  <Rubidium> showing a file twice when it exists only once on the list is not GOOD
21:28:51  <peter1138> btw
21:29:02  <Smoovious> ok... well, that is a problem I never had
21:29:42  <Rubidium> well, you could've when you were using Windows
21:29:56  <Smoovious> just so long as if I can see  I have the same GRF in .\newgrfs\av8w.grf and .\standard\av8w.grf , then I'm good
21:30:03  <Smoovious> I'm using windows
21:30:15  <peter1138> you're talking about the wrong lit
21:30:17  <peter1138> *list
21:30:37  <Smoovious> I just never manually edit the cfg file... I have openttd do the rescan itself
21:30:38  <peter1138> NewGRF settings versus Available NewGRF files
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21:30:54  <Smoovious> right... available NewGRF files is what my bug report was about
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21:31:23  <Rubidium> Smoovious: and when current working directory == directory of binary it will show all files in that directory as duplicate when they are not
21:31:55  <Smoovious> why would the binary be in the data  dir?
21:32:13  * Smoovious shrugs.
21:32:58  <Smoovious> well, will take a look when I get back up to the current revision...
21:33:10  <Smoovious> still getting my other 2 patches current again
21:33:16  <Rubidium> Smoovious: you really must READ what I say
21:33:24  <Smoovious> I did read it
21:33:35  <Rubidium> if "working directory" == "directory where the binary is in"
21:33:55  <Rubidium> this has nothing to do with the binary being in the data directory
21:33:58  <Smoovious> sorry, but just cuz it was clear to you, who made the change, doesn't mean it was clear to me...
21:34:18  <Rubidium> because the data directory would be "working directory"/data/ and "directory where the binary is in"/data/
21:34:25  <Smoovious> so it doesn't search subdirs  of the data directory, but subdirectories of openttd's home dir?
21:34:53  <Smoovious> er
21:34:55  <Rubidium> no, it searches subdirs of the data directory
21:35:16  <Smoovious> then...  but not the home dir?
21:35:23  <Rubidium> but if the directory where the data directory is in shows up twice in the found "search paths" it will scan that data directory
21:35:30  <glx> it searches in "working dir"/data, "openttd.exe dir"/data, mydocs/openttd/data, ...
21:36:08  <Smoovious> ok... so it doesn't know when working-dir and home-dir  are the same then
21:38:16  <Rubidium> it's even very hard to determine that they are actually the same in all cases
21:38:45  <Smoovious> that's kinda hard to believe
21:38:52  <Rubidium> like when I symlink .openttd to openttd and start from openttd. It will not know that .openttd and openttd are actually the same
21:39:43  <glx> hmm for windows you can just strcmp the paths :)
21:39:58  <glx> but I agree it can be harder for other platforms
21:40:01  <Smoovious> ok... that makes sense... but expanding the placeholders and comparing  the  resulting paths  would be a fairly simple check
21:41:44  <Smoovious> anyways, so long as I still see genuine duplicates, I'm good...
21:41:52  <Rubidium> glx: you can't
21:42:14  <Rubidium> well, not the stuff from openttd.cfg and what it finds itself
21:43:18  <Rubidium> and, Windows has symlinks or something looking like symlinks too
21:43:57  <Smoovious> btw... just to needle a  bit... I did read... and what I read, was "... so if you have the exact same grf in multiple directories, it will not show."... which was why I was arguing so hard. :P
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22:11:20  <stillunknown> Rubidium: the show all cargo bug is back
22:12:08  <Rubidium> stillunknown: back as in? I loaded a savegame that already had that issue?
22:12:19  <stillunknown> The issue is not selfcorrecting?
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22:12:53  <stillunknown> In that case, it must be the first time i noticed it again.
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22:14:36  <Rubidium> stillunknown: well, I think it is, but after something like 2 games years I think
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22:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... after almost one year you decide to close a feature request just like that? ...
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22:50:12  <Smoovious> cleaning out the fridge...
22:51:10  <TrueBrain> yeah, needed from time to time
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22:52:41  <TrueBrain> and now: goodnight!
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22:55:45  <Smoovious> o/
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23:59:12  <Ailure> hm
23:59:34  <Ailure> timetable system would be easier if there was a average travelling next to each travel D:

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