Log for #openttd on 13th July 2007:
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00:06:21  <mrblah> ?
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00:07:29  <NukeBuster> ?
00:08:18  <Digitalfox_Desktop> NukeBuster: Crazy people ;)
00:15:20  <Digitalfox_Desktop> But the strange thing is that is almost always at this hour that some strange users appear :\
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00:17:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's an evil plot by cs :p
00:17:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> like a DoS attack :p
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00:23:19  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Eddi|zuHause3: Who knows lol
00:28:11  <Smoovious> a DoS attack... nice...
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00:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, that's how a DoS attack works, right? you get some strange person to send senseless requests so the server is overloaded with rubbish and cannot deal with the important stuff
00:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> although 1 request per night is probably a poor excuse of an "attack" :p
00:33:22  <Smoovious> not a DoS one anyways... but still qualifies as an attack
00:34:02  <Smoovious> one security site described something  similar...  site being probed  slowly  for v ulnerabilities
00:35:03  <SmatZ> some slow portscan?
00:36:21  <Smoovious> ya
00:36:23  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Eddi|zuHause3: Yes, most of the times by using zombies OS.. But for it to work it has be used 100% of all Server side power ( or almost 100%, depends if the server just serves that site/FTP's, etc..).. To make the server unavailable :)
00:36:37  <Smoovious> trying to stay u nder t he radar... but h e got spotted
00:37:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, even one irregular log entry may cause you to be spotted
00:37:56  <Smoovious> if someone is looking
00:38:01  <SmatZ> it is evening in the US now ... maybe people powering their home computers on ... releasing the zombies ;)
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00:38:46  <Smoovious> most admins would be l ooking for quantity... a single innocuous entry would be missed... but t he  dude  started seeing  it more than once... looking m ore familiar... then he  decided t o check past logs...
00:38:47  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: hard to say ... I am running an apache server - and there are irregularities (strange requests) very often
00:38:48  <Smoovious> busted
00:39:00  <SmatZ> even I do not have any public website...
00:39:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> Digitalfox_Desktop: meanwhile, most DoS attacks are distributed, using thousands of machines infected with IRC bots
00:39:32  <Digitalfox_Desktop> But DoS is becaming obsolete and hard to cause, because of policies introduced in OS/Router/etc.. that makes a bigger selection of what can enter or not and at what time interval.. :)
00:39:46  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Eddi|zuHause3: True :)
00:41:28  <Digitalfox_Desktop> When i was taking MCSE/CCNP and HTI one of things we spend 2 weeks learning was that to be really prepared to have security we need to use attack tools and see what they did.. So we spent 2 weeks using attack tools and compromising Windows 2003 and some linux distros to see what policies were wrong.. :)
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00:43:50  <Digitalfox_Desktop> We used almost everything in astalavista and attacks tools widely available on google.. Also one of our colleagues was a programmer and he made some pretty tools to check holes, on routers/switches and OS..
00:45:11  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Security is always hard to get.. People don't want hard passwords.. Don't want to have to pass a finger-print check because it's strange etc...
00:45:35  <Digitalfox_Desktop> It's more a compromise of security vs easy use
00:46:29  <SmatZ> some of first lines of log -
00:47:09  <Digitalfox_Desktop> And most of directors and presidents of company's think spending money on hardware to secure is a waste of money, since a mercedes is more fun :(
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01:02:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> looks like a bot trying to go through a list of names
01:05:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> you could probably easily write a script to detect this behaviour
01:07:09  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: what nicks are problematic?
01:07:27  <SmatZ> I am really confused, I would be happy to understand what you are talking about :)
01:07:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> not nicknames, filenames
01:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> that possibly contain executable stuff
01:08:34  <SmatZ> at this channel?
01:09:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> i mean the log you showed
01:09:28  <SmatZ> ah
01:09:44  <SmatZ> sorry I didn't understand :)
01:10:40  <SmatZ> maybe some problematic scripts or exploits
01:12:06  <SmatZ>
01:12:14  <SmatZ> "POST /media/adxmlrpc.php HTTP/1.1" 406 349 The log entries may be related to a Nov 10 2005 phpAdsNew vulnerability announcement: ...
01:12:22  <Gekko> fun
01:12:24  <SmatZ> some people trying to exploit
01:12:36  <SmatZ> yeah fun! :)
01:16:24  <SmatZ> good night
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01:19:35  <Gekko> Time to compile nmap
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01:30:17  <Sacro> Gekko: don't let Eddi|zuHause3 hear about nmap
01:31:40  <Gekko> lol
01:33:55  <Sacro> wouldn't want those pesky germans getting hold of hacking tools
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02:56:23  <Smoovious> ugh...
02:58:18  <Smoovious> was going to make a patch  so the savegames would have the known passwords, so players  in a network game don't lose their passwords, but it  is a pain in the  ass following  how the load/save game stuff is doing its thing...
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08:32:34  <alex_>   #### SFW - awesome nature video you must see this!!
08:33:07  <TrueBrain> @kick alex_ get lost
08:33:07  *** alex_ was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [get lost]
08:33:30  <Sionide> weird
08:33:48  <Sionide> SFW youtube spam, that is just strange
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08:35:47  <alex_> fine.
08:36:41  <alex_> 7million views on  youtube video, and its not good enough for #openttd? next time i wont post teh linky ;P
08:37:27  <TrueBrain> if we want to see youtube videos that are "so popular", we go and visit the website ourself. Next time it won't read 'kick', but an other 3 letter word.
08:38:03  <TrueBrain> reminds me: good morning people
08:38:20  <blathijs> Good morning TrueBrain
08:38:23  <blathijs> Good to see you :-)
08:38:30  <TrueBrain> :) It's alive! ALIVE!!
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08:40:43  <alex_> TrueBrain, look at the video, its fucking awesome
08:40:50  <TrueBrain> @op
08:40:53  *** mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
08:40:53  <alex_> nothing youve seen in nature videos before :)
08:40:55  *** mode/#openttd [+b alex_!*@*] by TrueBrain
08:40:55  *** alex_ was kicked from #openttd by TrueBrain [Go kick]
08:40:57  <TrueBrain> blabla
08:41:18  <TrueBrain> hmm... my IRC client can't even normally ban people...
08:43:12  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*] by TrueBrain
08:43:15  *** mode/#openttd [-b alex_!*@*] by TrueBrain
08:43:18  <TrueBrain> weird IRC client
08:43:19  <TrueBrain> really
08:44:38  <peter1138> :o
08:46:38  <Biff> what client?
08:47:06  <TrueBrain> Konversation
08:47:11  <TrueBrain> doesn't allow any real configuration
08:47:17  <TrueBrain> not even log rotate over days...
08:47:52  <Biff> aha
08:47:56  <Biff> irssi <3
08:48:18  <Biff> beeing sick and going on vacation tomorrow, not so good :(
08:48:27  <TrueBrain> :s
08:48:32  <TrueBrain> where does the vacation go to?
08:48:45  <Rubidium> yeah, Konversation always fails on a headless machine without any X libraries
08:48:46  <Biff> tunisia
08:48:56  <TrueBrain> not bad :)
08:49:10  <Biff> seems very nice
08:49:20  <Biff> we have very bad weather here in norway
08:50:12  <TrueBrain> hehe
08:50:20  <TrueBrain> in some parts of the world they have fires really big
08:50:22  <TrueBrain> the others parts flood
08:50:24  <TrueBrain> dunno
08:50:27  <TrueBrain> sounds like a good OpenTTD scenario
08:51:44  <Biff> hehe
08:54:49  <Gekko> why was alex_ banned?
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08:55:25  <Gekko> oh
08:55:27  <Gekko> i see.
08:55:28  <Gekko> spam.
08:55:48  <TrueBrain> and worse: continuing spam after a really clear warning
08:56:38  <Biff> for some reason i just have to watch the video he posted :-P
08:57:08  <TrueBrain> and for some reason my NoAI is doing some pretty strange stuff :s
09:19:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10533 /branches/noai/ (110 files in 11 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r10460:r10532.
09:21:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10534 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: [NoAI] -Fix r10533: update regression output
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09:46:44  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!*] by TrueBrain
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10:08:32  <Digitalfox_Notebook> I understand why you kicked him TrueBrain :) But the video is pretty cool ..
10:10:04  <Rubidium> Digitalfox_Notebook: "nature" videos usually point to porn
10:10:21  <Digitalfox_Notebook> Rubidium: True :)
10:10:43  <Rubidium> and this is not a channel to post porn links in
10:10:55  <Digitalfox_Notebook> very true
10:12:44  <Digitalfox_Notebook> When creating a newgrf set, how do we know what GRFID to give, and avoiding having one already used by other set? :\
10:16:26  <Rubidium> don't know, but I've got the feeling it's just a gamble whether it's already used
10:16:45  <Rubidium> but the first two bytes are usually the same for each author
10:16:59  <Rubidium> like PikkaBird's stuff always has 4444xxxx
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10:17:49  <Digitalfox_Notebook> I see.. And it makes sence... Thanks..
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10:37:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10535 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: set _current_player also for dying AI (tnx Rubidium for the help!!)
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10:42:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10536 /branches/noai/ (bin/ai/regression/ src/video/null_v.cpp): [NoAI] -Add: added option for null-driver to configure how long it should run (-vnull:ticks=10000)
10:46:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10537 /trunk/src/video/null_v.cpp: -Backport r10536: added option for null-driver to configure how long it should run (-vnull:ticks=10000)
10:48:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10538 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIVehicleStationList, which lists all stations a vehicle goes to
10:50:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10539 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_stationlist.hpp: [NoAI] -Documentation: added some comments for AI(Vehicle)StationList
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11:04:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10540 /branches/noai/ (6 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIStationVehicleList, which lists all vehicles that go to a given station
11:04:29  <TrueBrain> k, that should be enough to make profitable lines with RV :)
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11:13:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> so it is now capable of replacing the old new ai?
11:21:43  <TrueBrain> besides a pathfinder, which is possible in SQ itself, yes
11:22:06  <TrueBrain> oh, and it misses support for bridges and tunnels
11:22:08  <TrueBrain> minor details :)
11:25:05  <TrueBrain> but now first: Traveler
11:27:43  <Sionide> ahhhh crap
11:27:52  <Sionide> i'm rubbish and doing RRLL mainlines :(
11:27:55  <Sionide> at*
11:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, because it should be LLRR :)
11:29:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> but trying LRLR could be fun also
11:30:32  <TrueBrain> LRRL :)
11:30:42  <Sionide> hmm
11:35:41  <TrueBrain> LRDRL :p (D = Double Direction)
11:37:20  <Sionide> the mainline has always been RL, now i'm having to change all the junctions
11:37:21  <Sionide> arrgghhh
11:37:22  <Sionide> heh
11:39:38  <TrueBrain> playing OpenTTD... I didn't do that in a long while..
11:40:10  <Digitalfox_Desktop> O_O
11:40:59  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Go play TrueBrain.. Hey you deserve the fun ..
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11:41:17  <TrueBrain> fun fun... what is fun.... :p
11:42:10  <Digitalfox_Desktop> 9_9
11:42:14  <TrueBrain> 8_8
11:42:51  <Digitalfox_Desktop> It didn't show an emoticon?
11:42:57  <TrueBrain> I refuse!
11:43:01  <Digitalfox_Desktop> heh
11:43:19  <blathijs> #mep emoticons
11:43:24  <blathijs> smileys ftw!
11:43:27  <Digitalfox_Desktop> fine go make some new features for openttd lol
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11:48:01  <TrueBrain> Digitalfox_Desktop: did enough NoAI for one day :p
11:48:16  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Sure did :)
11:48:51  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: there is already somebody who wrote a pathfinder in SQ, so it should be fairly easy to make nice AIs with fairly little effort
11:48:58  <TrueBrain> yup
11:49:03  <TrueBrain> local city routes I already have
11:54:55  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I meant pathfinder for new inter city routes
11:55:46  <TrueBrain> I know
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12:06:30  <alex__> um
12:06:39  <alex__> which packages do you need agian for openttd to run in *nix?
12:08:02  <TrueBrain> I hate Traveler... it always ends when it just got good!
12:08:54  <Rubidium> alex__: see wiki
12:09:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10541 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp economy.h saveload.cpp):
12:09:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#1028]: cargo payment rates overflow.
12:09:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: cargo payment rates diverge from cost rates making it impossible to make any profit after a certain number of years.
12:09:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Both are solved by stopping the inflation after 170 years; there is absolutely
12:09:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: no point in continueing the inflation after that as it only makes the game have
12:09:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: overflows at some point that cannot be solved; using larger variables only
12:09:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: delays the inevitable.
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12:14:43  <Sionide> hmm
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12:16:17  <Sionide> if i'm getting graphics glitches with stuff being able to go under bridges, should i make a bug report about it?
12:18:32  <Maedhros> there's already a bug about it iirc
12:18:58  * Sacro|Laptop had a genius plan when he was sleeping
12:19:14  * Sacro|Laptop attemps to implement it
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12:21:16  <Sionide> Sacro|Laptop, what is it? :)
12:21:57  <Sacro|Laptop> Sionide: i do not wish to tell :) suffice to say, i probably won't be able to acheive it
12:23:03  <TrueBrain> so tell people and maybe they like it and to finish it :p
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12:23:40  <Sacro|Laptop> i want to start it myself :(
12:24:10  <TrueBrain> and I wish my new DVD+R DL were in...
12:24:15  <TrueBrain> takes for ever to order them
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12:27:05  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Are those a bit more affordable lately?
12:27:11  <TrueBrain> not in the NL
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12:28:03  <TrueBrain> otherwise they are 2,50 per DVD
12:28:17  <TrueBrain> which is far less then 60 euro :p
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12:51:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> i thought DL were more like 1EUR
12:53:39  <TrueBrain> hahaha
12:54:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> what?
12:54:27  <Noldo> plaah, it's raining
12:54:31  <TrueBrain> try finding them for 1 euro :p
12:54:37  <TrueBrain> (verbatim, that is)
12:54:45  <Sacro|Laptop> Noldo: yes... i'm getting worried about flooding
12:54:52  <Digitalfox_Desktop> It's a shame there aren't DL rewritable DVD's .. :(
12:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> why would it have to be verbatim?
12:55:09  <TrueBrain> because most others work poorly in my XBox :p
12:55:35  <Noldo> Sacro|Laptop: I'm not. There is so much lake area here that it would take quite a lot of rain for anything to flood
12:56:30  <Noldo> But it would nicer to cycle home if it didn't
12:57:27  <Digitalfox_Desktop> I actually got scamed with 10 ones ( didn't follow the development of DL and always thought there also DL Rewritable ..) So i bought 10 for 29EUR ( yes in portugal DL are expensive ) But SL are like 30 cents each..
12:59:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, ebay says it has 20 for ~27EUR, but from USA ...
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13:01:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> but there are a lot of cheaper brands...
13:02:12  <Digitalfox_Desktop> The problem is that mail shipping becomes expensive, if ordering for portugal.
13:02:51  <TrueBrain> I order in from Germany, around 26 euro for 10
13:03:01  <TrueBrain> still better than the 55 euro for 10 overhere :p
13:03:10  <Digitalfox_Desktop> And mail services are a little stupid.. Let's just say they have the habbit of losing a lot of stuff..
13:03:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> 25 for 22,90EUR (from austria)
13:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> (not verbatim)
13:03:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10542 /trunk/src/video/ (null_v.cpp null_v.h): -Codechange: use class member instead of global variable for null ticks value
13:05:17  <TrueBrain> bah, I need to keep track of my routes in order to find a depot that is good enough...
13:05:27  <TrueBrain> AIs always get rapidly more complex
13:05:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> 50 for 70EUR (Platinum, although i once bought those and they don't work in my burner, only in my friend's burner)
13:06:07  <Sacro|Laptop> hmm, are trains defined with a class...
13:06:14  <Sacro|Laptop> or do i need to rewrite a shedload of stuff
13:09:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, 10 for 8EUR...
13:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> and even from my city...
13:09:34  <Sacro|Laptop>
13:10:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> Sacro|Laptop: i think stillunknown did something with trains and classes
13:10:18  <Sacro|Laptop> Eddi|zuHause3: hmm, might have to look into it
13:10:22  <TrueBrain> wow, I have an AI that only makes inner-city connections, and makes profit :)
13:10:46  <TrueBrain> it even manages the lines just fine :)
13:11:16  <TrueBrain> haha, 20 vehicles to serve one station :)
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13:17:45  <TrueBrain> 34k pound RV income in 1 year
13:17:46  <TrueBrain> how nice
13:18:08  <TrueBrain> 61k in the second year :)
13:20:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> do you handle scaling by difficulty level?
13:20:31  <ln-> hmmmmm, a genuine copy of TTD ordered [x]
13:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> "10 things i want to do before my midlife crisis?"
13:21:05  <SmatZ> ln-: how?
13:21:47  <Sacro|Laptop> SmatZ: they are available
13:22:09  <Sacro|Laptop> i saw a copy for £2.99 in a second hand shop in town
13:22:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's what? ~5EUR?
13:22:48  <SmatZ> ah, second hand
13:22:58  <ln-> well, this is supposed to be a new one.
13:23:06  <ln->
13:23:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> "new" as in "never used"?
13:24:54  <ln-> "new" as in "New & Sealed."
13:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> so "new" as in "i found this in a box of never sold items in the corner of my warehouse"
13:25:51  <ln-> yeah.
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13:26:18  <TrueBrain> wow, my AI is still alive after 20 years
13:26:23  <SmatZ> Transport Tycoon Deluxe (Win95/98/ME)
13:26:23  <SmatZ> Still available as a budget title in the UK and US (Try Amazon's UK mail order web site - See link below)
13:26:23  <TrueBrain> with 100k pound RV income a year
13:30:31  <Sacro|Laptop> SmatZ: who is the publisher?
13:31:17  <Sacro|Laptop> mm, expensive
13:31:43  <Sacro|Laptop> errr... "Transport Tycoon And Transport Tycoon Deluxe Collection! Now On XP!
13:31:43  <Sacro|Laptop> by Atari "
13:31:48  <Sacro|Laptop> that sounds worrying
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13:34:03  <peter1138> 14:23 < SmatZ> Transport Tycoon Deluxe (Win95/98/ME)
13:34:04  <peter1138> hhe
13:34:14  <peter1138> yay for the windows version :D
13:34:19  <Sacro|Laptop> i love the fact that the sponsored link is an abandonware site with the full download available
13:34:33  <Sacro|Laptop> zomg no it's not
13:34:40  <Sacro|Laptop> its classicgameingpresents
13:34:43  <Sacro|Laptop> not CGN D:
13:35:24  <Sacro|Laptop> hmm, and I wonder how they acheived XP compatability
13:36:11  <Sacro|Laptop> £4.99. do i risk it
13:36:15  <Sacro|Laptop> and would it be a legal copy
13:36:58  <Maedhros> ln-: just to let you know, that'll probably be the DOS version (if it's the same one I got from Amazon, at least)
13:37:13  <Sacro|Laptop> Maedhros: i think its the WIn one
13:38:01  <Sacro|Laptop> i'm sure Replay was windows
13:38:20  <Maedhros> replay, as in the people who tend to sell things in yellow packaging?
13:38:29  <Digitalfox_Desktop> " Transport Tycoon And Transport Tycoon Deluxe Collection! Now On XP!
13:38:30  <Digitalfox_Desktop> by Atari " but "Availability: This item is not in stock or has been discontinued." lol
13:38:35  <Maedhros> cos they sold me the dos version ;)
13:38:49  <Maedhros> which does work on 9x, btw
13:39:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think i played the dos version on ME
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13:41:11  <Sacro|Laptop> hmm
13:41:24  <Sacro|Laptop> someone here is selling Transport Giant as Transport Tycoon
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13:43:13  <Sacro|Laptop>
13:43:16  <Sacro|Laptop> that looks suspect
13:43:44  <Sacro|Laptop> not only has he used JPEG not PNG, but its an OpenTTD screenshot
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13:46:38  * peter1138 got TTDwin with Tycoon Collection
13:46:42  <peter1138> or something like that
13:46:56  <peter1138> had TTD, RCT and RT2
13:46:56  <Sacro|Laptop> should we do anything about people selling OpenTTD?
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13:48:25  <Sacro|Laptop> hmm
13:48:37  <Sacro|Laptop> is it legal to sell a copied game so long as you state its not an original>
13:48:51  <lolman> Sacro|Laptop: no
13:49:11  <Digitalfox_Desktop> I think not.. About doing something.. Atari or CS may take that on the other way.. :\
13:49:13  <Sacro|Laptop> well people are doing it on eBay
13:49:28  <Sacro|Laptop> with Transport Tycoon, and Pizza Tycoon
13:49:50  <lolman> Sacro|Laptop: selling copies is worse than buying them
13:50:04  <izhirahider> remember OpenTTD is licensed under the GNU General Public License version 2.0.
13:50:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10543 /branches/noai/ (9 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AIStationListCargoRating as valuator for a station list
13:50:05  <Sacro|Laptop> yes i know
13:50:24  <Sacro|Laptop> izhirahider: yes... so he has to produce source if i contact him?
13:51:22  <izhirahider> See the file 'COPYING' included with the source :)
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13:55:32  <ln-> i'll let you know whether it was the dos version or not.
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14:13:37  <Mizipzor> to regain popularity in a town, can i erase all the trees around it and then rebuild them to make the town happy?
14:14:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10544 /branches/noai/ (13 files in 4 dirs):
14:14:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added AIIndustryList to list industries
14:14:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added AIIndustry::GetProduction, to get the production of a certain cargo of the industry
14:17:08  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Yes, that's what i do :)
14:17:19  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Offcourse theres also the bribe ;)
14:17:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> that should get fixed at some point
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14:19:14  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Don't know how.. Since if you already have 0 points at local authority you can't get down more.. So by destroying more theres no penalization ..
14:19:47  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Only if the value becames negative, like -1000
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14:27:01  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: I think it won't get fixed
14:27:20  <SmatZ> and ... I like this behavior :)
14:27:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a cheat...
14:29:23  <izhirahider> Sacro|Laptop, yes, I think so
14:31:44  <TrueBrain> so, now I am bored :p
14:34:58  <alex__> i bribed a town that i moved tons and tons of dirt around
14:35:03  <alex__> and i needed to build a station near it
14:35:15  <alex__> so i bribed the town... to no effect :(
14:36:00  <Belugas> TrueBrain, maybe give a hand to Rubidium with the stringcodes of ttdpatch for newindustries?  poor guy is running crazy on them :)
14:36:37  <Belugas> i thinkt that should quite occupy you!
14:37:00  <TrueBrain> hehe :)
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14:38:02  <TrueBrain> I have no idea what stringcodes are :p
14:39:05  <Rubidium> think of it as {STRING} {NUM} etc
14:39:58  <TrueBrain> ah! How did they solve it?
14:40:07  <Rubidium> which read from a "stack" and there are like get word from stack and print a {NUM} and get byte from stack and print as {NUM} together with "rotate top 4 words on the stack" or "push word on stack"
14:41:37  *** Osai is now known as Osai^Kendo
14:42:56  <Rubidium> which is *very* funny because some strings we must handle in our system, i.e. replace the "get word from stack and print as {NUM}" with just "get value from the dparams and print as {NUM}", but in other cases we need to emulate that TTDP stack as we get the (raw) data from a newgrf
14:43:58  <TrueBrain> .....
14:44:00  <TrueBrain> good luck :p
14:44:05  <peter1138> we replaced the byte-based stack with int64s
14:44:16  <peter1138> (via int32 for most of history)
14:44:32  <Rubidium> peter1138: I know that, but callback 3A assumes the byte-based stack
14:44:39  <peter1138> yeah
14:44:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10545 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_industry.cpp ai_industry.hpp): [NoAI] -Fix: GetProduction doesn't return a tile, but a value (tnx glx)
14:44:56  <peter1138> hmm
14:45:13  <peter1138> i guess you need to pre-parse the string to unpack the arguments, or something
14:46:40  <Rubidium> peter1138: but then... you've got a push word on stack
14:46:47  <peter1138> :o
14:46:51  <Rubidium> and you've got substrings that might push that word on the stack too
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14:52:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10546 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1026]: you can now have both Available Train as Available Ship window open
15:01:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10547 /trunk/src/date.cpp: -Fix: when Cheat-Window is open and a new month happens, the window wasn't redrawn instantly
15:02:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10548 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1020]: don't segfault when you quit in the end-of-the-game screen
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15:12:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10549 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1031]: wrong tram catenary poles drawn in some bridge directions.
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15:31:40  <alex__> when approx is the next version being released?
15:31:41  <alex__> :)
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15:34:16  <peter1138> when it's ready
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15:36:17  <alex__> ok
15:36:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> probably not this week :p
15:36:33  <alex__> what usually generates the new release?
15:36:49  <alex__> time? or the build up of code changes?
15:37:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> mood of the lead dev
15:39:54  <alex__> ah, ok :)
15:43:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> or pherhaps cosmic dust :)
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16:25:30  <Wolf01> hello
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16:30:36  * Sacro|Laptop considers hacking apart the vehicle class
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16:42:50  <Mizipzor> is a upslope on a bridge easer on the train than a upslope on terrain?
16:44:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> why would it?
16:47:09  <Mizipzor> dunno, i friend is trying to convince me :p but i cant prove him wrong
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16:53:50  <Belugas> Mizipzor, a bridge may have a speed limit, while the terrain will only slowdown because of the slope-tracting effort and so on
16:54:18  <Belugas> although, the "slope" of the bridgehead is certainly shorter then most terrain slopes ;)
16:54:31  <Mizipzor> Belugas, yea, but on an upslope, i guess a train will rarely slow down more due to the effect of the bridge than the slope
16:55:25  <SmatZ> Mizipzor: I did a test ... and in this test, bridges were better than hills
16:55:51  <Mizipzor> SmatZ, wierd... well i guess i was wrong then
16:56:29  <SmatZ> yes, weird... maybe my test was not that what you actually mean
16:56:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10550 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt hungarian.txt slovak.txt traditional_chinese.txt):
16:56:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-13 18:55:52
16:56:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 3 fixed by Neonox (3)
16:56:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 fixed by miham (2)
16:56:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovak - 6 fixed by lengyel (6)
16:56:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 6 fixed by xbddc (6)
16:57:06  <SmatZ> Mizipzor:
16:57:16  <SmatZ> the trains started in the same moment
16:57:23  <SmatZ> and this is after some time
16:57:33  <SmatZ> maybe the difference is somewhere else
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17:10:27  <Mizipzor> SmatZ, yes thats what i mean
17:12:48  <Digitalfox_Desktop> I just did the same in the screenshot in last nightly and after a while one of trains gains advantage over the other !!
17:17:37  <Digitalfox_Desktop> I always thought it was the same :\
17:17:49  <Mizipzor> Digitalfox_Desktop, me to
17:18:22  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Wait.. I did test it some months ago and i'm pretty sure it was the same..
17:18:34  <Digitalfox_Desktop> months or maybe years
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17:31:50  <Phazorx> question what can be taking a lot of CPU power if all vehicles are stopepd?
17:32:29  <Rubidium> not all vehicles are actually stopped?
17:32:40  <Phazorx> well the been still for a while
17:32:44  <Phazorx> i can see it from money counter
17:32:52  <Phazorx> map has 5 cities and 5 industries
17:33:05  <Phazorx> taking 80% power of briantetas box now
17:33:12  <Phazorx> towns are huge tho
17:33:24  <Phazorx> so are amount of waiting pax at stations
17:33:25  <Rubidium> are you sure it's that instance of OTTD?
17:33:39  <Phazorx> Rubidium: Ammller looing at top atm
17:33:44  <Phazorx> i'll log in too i guess
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17:35:28  <Wolf01> did you see the route planner patch in the forum?? really impressive
17:36:17  <Noldo> link?
17:36:19  <Rubidium> all he did was writing the appropriate cost calculation functions for YAPF and YAPF did the "real" work
17:36:33  <Wolf01>
17:36:34  <TrueBrain> still, it is a very nice idea :)
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17:39:59  <Noldo> a bit like saying TCP is nothing it's IP doing all the work
17:43:54  <Rubidium> Noldo: no, TCP is (much) more than a "simple" cost calculation change
17:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> it could very well be an important step for AI development
17:48:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd suggest porting it to road and try to include it in the NoAI
17:51:47  <ln->
17:52:37  <glx> how many of these are floating in the sea now?
17:53:00  <Rubidium> I wouldn't have stacked them that way
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17:55:31  <Phazorx> Rubidium: are city tiles and chanhing them is a CPU killer ?
17:56:00  <peter1138> in english?
17:56:01  <Rubidium> don't know
17:56:18  <Phazorx> peter1138: current coopers ganme
17:56:34  <Phazorx> have 250 stopped trams and 200 stopped trains
17:56:43  <Phazorx> 5 towns 4 industries
17:56:51  <Phazorx> eats 70% CPU
17:57:41  <Rubidium> and when you pause it?
17:57:53  <Phazorx> some stations have 1 mil of passengers waiting though
17:58:02  <Phazorx> well lemme try but i'd assume 0
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17:58:22  <peter1138> 1 mil o?
17:58:23  <peter1138> +f
17:58:25  <peter1138> heh
17:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> mil == thousand...
17:58:53  <skidd13> The internal x-axis is NW-SE and the y-axis NE-SW, is it?
17:58:57  <Phazorx> now, 980,000
17:59:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, the other way round, skidd13
17:59:14  <peter1138> 1 million passengers. no 'of' and not 'mil'
17:59:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> x is from NE to SW
17:59:31  <Phazorx> when paused - 0
17:59:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> y is from NW to SE
17:59:40  <Phazorx> AP uses 0.3 tho
17:59:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> N being the top of the screen
18:00:35  <skidd13> N is clear but I wasn't sure wich axis is which.
18:01:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> take your right hand (thumb=x, index=y, middle=z)
18:01:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> turn it so that z is up, x is towards your left, y is towards your right
18:02:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> most 3D coordinate systems follow the right hand rule
18:03:33  <skidd13> I know this rule, but wasn't sure cause then the land info tooltip shows x on 2nd pos. :)
18:03:58  <Phazorx> so ince again what can put such stress on CPU when nothing is mvoing ?
18:05:29  <peter1138> loads of things
18:05:49  <peter1138> cargo arriving at a station can cause the station to be redrawn, for example
18:06:29  <peter1138> skidd13: no, X is first pos on land area info
18:07:03  <Phazorx> train are not moving, so cargo arrives only local and stations are packed for a while already is there sprite animation that differencistaes 990000 and 1000000 ?
18:07:49  <peter1138> we don't do station sprite animation
18:09:01  <Phazorx> "we" ?
18:09:07  <peter1138> ottd
18:09:27  <Phazorx> well i kinda assumed that grfs can only use features that are available in engine
18:09:39  <Phazorx> regardless most stations are kisyt default ones ratehr than fancy
18:09:52  <peter1138> kisyt?
18:09:53  <Phazorx> so they dont have that much of animation capacity
18:10:02  <Phazorx> "just default"
18:10:28  <Phazorx> there are 113 RR stations there though
18:10:29  <peter1138> when using the default stations only, it is not redrawn
18:10:41  <peter1138> (that is per station)
18:10:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10551 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/api/squirrel_export.awk squirrel_helper.hpp): [NoAI] -Add: added SQ support for "void *"
18:11:06  <Phazorx> i understand so most liktley since it is not being done can not use 70% CPU
18:11:07  <Ammller> peter1138: town itself?
18:11:52  <peter1138> well
18:11:56  <peter1138> why don't you profile it?
18:12:22  <Ammller> there are much houses on the map, about 1Miil habitants
18:12:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> Phazorx: animation != changing on special occasion
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18:14:18  <peter1138> although it (when we support it) is triggered only certain events
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18:20:38  <Phazorx> i'll profile the save i guess
18:21:08  <Phazorx> but i forgot config option for that...
18:23:29  <skidd13> Hmm, now after fixing the axis of my code it sucks less but only the west-side is treated right. Damn. Does the command CMD_BUILD_ROAD optimise it's input?
18:41:45  <Phazorx> grrr.. what config flag i need for profiling ?
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18:45:09  <Tlustoch> Can someone tell me how is the price calculated? Stations distance or squares passed by the vehicle?
18:46:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> Tlustoch: station distance (manhattan)
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18:47:27  <Tlustoch> So going from upper corner to down corner is the biggest distance = highest price?
18:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, something like that
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18:52:16  <JazzyJaffa> Wolf01: Thanks for the comment on the route planner, it works ok when you have bags of ram and don't mind waiting as a single player, but I don't think its ready for AI!
18:54:17  <JazzyJaffa> YAPF is doing most of the work as Rubidium says, for something usable you'd need to do a lot more work
18:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, it's probably similar to the ship pathfinding, there are too many options
18:57:11  <JazzyJaffa> Indeed, you get millions of options
18:57:51  <JazzyJaffa> BTW Would YAPF for ships be viable if the whole route was cached?
18:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, it would probably reduce load very much if pathfinder is not called on every tile
18:59:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> but on every change of a water tile you have to clear all caches and recalculate
19:00:26  <JazzyJaffa> Only on an add of a water tile
19:00:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, also if the path is blocked by raising land
19:01:00  <JazzyJaffa> For loss of water you could check if the ship passed through (pretty rare)
19:01:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, but you have to check all ships and all future tiles of each ship
19:01:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> and see if it matches the tile(s) you changed
19:02:06  <JazzyJaffa> and for an add of water you would only need to check if the new tile had >1 water neighbours
19:02:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> you usually have 2 water neighbours
19:04:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> there are two possible ways to solve the ship issue
19:04:26  <JazzyJaffa> ah ha! i think you can get round that - I need to draw it out
19:04:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> a) implement ship routes between buoys, ships can only travel along those routes
19:05:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> b) find a region based pathfinder, that can handle large numbers of equivalent routes
19:05:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> (squares of water)
19:06:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10552 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1034, r10546]: opening Available Aircrafts segfaulted
19:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> of course regions are easier to find on water than on land (for track building), so it might not help much there
19:07:57  <skidd13> What about nature examples for the pathfinder? I remember something like that from my technical material lessons. The "Gummibandmodell" for dislocation movements in a crystalline structure.
19:08:36  <JazzyJaffa> I think this works: You remember each new water tile since last re-calc and only recalc if the new water tile has 1> "old water" tiles
19:08:57  <JazzyJaffa> thats the only case where a shorter route could be made
19:09:25  <JazzyJaffa> opps >1
19:11:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> like i said, flooding usually has "diagonal" edges, so most new water tiles have 2 old water tiles next to them
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19:12:55  <glx> [20:42:02] <Phazorx> grrr.. what config flag i need for profiling ? <-- configure --enable-profiling
19:13:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10553 /branches/noai/ (11 files in 5 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added a framework for AIPathFinder() and implemented a really stupid AIPathFinderStupid()
19:13:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> and you can try to optimise pathfinding by doing an approximate search first for intermediate points (like distance ~3 tiles), and then only calculate
19:13:51  <Phazorx> glx: thanks
19:13:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> path between the intermediate tiles
19:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> but you loose accuracy there
19:14:09  <Phazorx> i got that part already tho - running game with -D will do 1000 tiicks right ?
19:14:30  <Rubidium> no, it will start the dedicated server
19:14:36  <glx> no -v null does that
19:14:55  <glx> and it's configurable no
19:14:57  <Phazorx> ahh good thanks
19:15:00  <glx> *now
19:15:13  <Phazorx> "now" ?
19:15:32  <Rubidium> yes, since a few revs
19:15:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> what i mean, if you have a spot (x0,y0) and a spot (xend,yend), you choose a spot in [x0-delta,x0+delta]x[y0-delta,y0+delta] that is nearest to the target
19:16:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> then calculate a route
19:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> and move on from there
19:16:22  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause3: that is the worst kind of pathfinding you can do
19:16:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> lower delta means less accuracy and for large detours you do not find existing routes anymore
19:18:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, i said it is not really optimal
19:18:18  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause3: the strength of pathfinding is that is finds non-trivial paths that are cheapests and setting some waypoint in exactly the middle between two places can make it the worst possible route
19:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> but you can reduce load that way
19:23:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can also try it differently, calculate a cost for each spot in [x0-delta,x0+delta]x[y0-delta,y0+delta] depending on the basic cost and the distance to travel, then choose the best spot out of those
19:23:14  <Phazorx> hmm... is it normal that profiling too like 3 sek ?
19:23:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> works best if you do that from both ends
19:23:48  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause3: just use A*
19:24:16  <TrueBrain> basicly comes down to the same, only a bit more clever and less CPU-intensive
19:24:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> TrueBrain: but we already use A*, it is too intensive
19:24:33  <TrueBrain> is it really? :)
19:24:36  <TrueBrain> depends on the job
19:24:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> it is fine for rail networks
19:25:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> but not for lakes, or trackbuilding, where you have too many options
19:25:33  <TrueBrain> it for example works best for AI pathfinding
19:25:45  <TrueBrain> but what you describe is very close to A*, just A* takes less CPU then you method :)
19:25:57  <Phazorx> weird... it take 50% CPU if running but profiling is extrimly quick
19:26:49  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: YAPF is A* on steroids
19:27:00  <TrueBrain> yup
19:27:05  <TrueBrain> most of all: segment caching
19:27:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> one could try to build up caching information for the map
19:27:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> the problem is, water or clear land has no segments to cache
19:28:05  <Phazorx> profile run in 1.22 sek :/ anyway that's the one that hogs Brianetta's server now... anyone feel like taking a loook at it ?
19:28:26  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: 'profile run in ..'... it very much depends on how you run your profile
19:28:40  <TrueBrain> there is not one prototype for that, so you are a bit vague to me
19:28:52  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: openttd -vnull -G profile.sav
19:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> so to find a path from A to B on the map requires you to search almost the entire map, not just the tiles between A and B
19:28:59  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: run -vnull:ticks=10000
19:29:01  <TrueBrain> or something
19:29:03  <Phazorx>
19:29:04  <TrueBrain> make sure it runs for 30+ seconds
19:29:19  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause3: why?
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19:30:02  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: as long as md5_process is in your top5, you didn't run the profiling long enough
19:30:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> TrueBrain: imagine A and B in opposite corners of the map, map almost completely water
19:30:10  <TrueBrain> (it is an initializiation function)
19:30:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> just a straigt bit of land in the middle blocking the path
19:30:40  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause3: of course there are extremum, but for example A* ignores on average 98.6% of the map
19:30:50  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: i figured there was soemthing fishy about it
19:31:01  <TrueBrain> (of course it happens that it scane 100% of the map, but mostly it is pretty fast ;))
19:31:07  <Rubidium> Phazorx: -G ?
19:31:19  <Phazorx> -g
19:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> and the real problems start when there is no path
19:31:50  <TrueBrain> yup
19:32:02  <TrueBrain> but that is a problem for any pathfinder of any kind :)
19:32:19  <TrueBrain> for it to be 100% sure there is no path, it needs to check all tiles in some cases
19:32:30  <TrueBrain> no, never 100%
19:32:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> but you could build up a cache of connected components at the beginning of the game
19:32:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> updates of that cache should usually be local
19:32:59  <TrueBrain> at least 4 tiles aren't checked, as they block the route to the place (a corner tile blocked with what ever)
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19:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> but i imagine that a check of connected components are quite common for AI, especially on island games
19:39:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> it will get really funny if you also consider wormholes (bridges, tunnels), because the graph gets non-planar then :)
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19:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> i.e. neighbours of a tile are not only the immediate neighbours (4 usually) but also all tiles you could build a bridge or tunnel to
19:42:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> and an extreme dimension if you also consider terraforming
19:44:27  <Phazorx> well.. MD5 is not moving further away than 6th spot :(
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19:45:48  <TrueBrain> Phazorx: which isn't top5 ;)
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19:46:06  <Phazorx> TrueBrain: still means sometihng is not right
19:46:18  <Phazorx> and i can make it recognize 10000 but not 30000
19:46:24  <Phazorx> since both take 15 sek
19:46:29  <glx> what is first in your profile?
19:46:34  <Phazorx> wait a sek
19:46:38  <Phazorx> it was 1000 only
19:46:53  <Phazorx> -v null:ticks=30000
19:47:02  <Phazorx> for 532 is that supposed to work ?
19:47:10  <Phazorx>  52.48      7.72     7.72    54139     0.00     0.00  CargoList::InvalidateCache()
19:47:12  <Phazorx> 1st
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19:47:21  <glx> introduced in r10537
19:47:34  <Phazorx> how can i profile more than 1000 before that ?
19:47:45  <TrueBrain> modify source; easier to upgrade
19:48:00  <TrueBrain> @calc 7.72 / 54139
19:48:01  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.000142595910527
19:48:04  <Phazorx> hmm... an issue my appear differently there but i'll svn up anwyay
19:48:04  <TrueBrain> @calc 7.72 / 54139 * 1000
19:48:05  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.142595910527
19:48:10  <TrueBrain> 14 msec per call
19:50:13  <Phazorx> all vehicles are stopped btw
19:50:21  <Phazorx> so report will be strange by default
19:55:02  <SmatZ> I wish I could buy time ... for a reasonable price :)
19:55:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10554 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (4 files): [NoAI] -Codechange: allow classes with virtual functions to still export their enums.
19:55:37  <Rubidium> SmatZ: go to the US and shoot a cop, then you'll get "time" for free
19:55:59  <TrueBrain> "free"? :)
19:56:04  <TrueBrain> that also depends on your point of view of course
19:56:08  <TrueBrain> a weapon, bullet, flight...
19:56:21  <Phazorx>
19:56:45  <Phazorx> i recon it is 4 million pax waiting
19:57:03  <TrueBrain> @calc 50.26 / 172878
19:57:03  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.000290725251333
19:57:05  <TrueBrain> @calc 50.26 / 172878 * 1000
19:57:06  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.290725251333
19:57:18  <TrueBrain> 29msec... it is getting more the longer you run? :p
19:57:27  <Phazorx> "it" ?
19:57:43  <TrueBrain> InvalidateCache
19:57:46  <TrueBrain> but I guess that is for Rubidium :p
19:58:04  <Phazorx> hmm... what is it caching ?
19:58:09  <SmatZ> Rubidium: not exactly what I want :(
19:58:16  <Rubidium> for example the return value of CargoList::Count() const
19:59:15  <Belugas> [15:57] <Rubidium> SmatZ: go to the US and shoot a cop, then you'll get "time" for free  <--- pay attention on which state you'll do that.  You may find eternity instead of some free time;)
19:59:15  <Rubidium> Phazorx: and you've got a gazillion of cargo packets and it's increasing fast
19:59:41  <Phazorx> Rubidium: so i read it as "more cargo waiting" slower it runs ?
19:59:44  <Rubidium> the "only" solution is capping the amount of cargo packets per list
19:59:48  <Rubidium> Phazorx: yes
19:59:55  <Rubidium> so it must be capped somewhere
20:00:00  <Phazorx> capped?
20:00:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> limited
20:00:17  <Rubidium> like max waiting cargo = 25000 pieces or so
20:00:44  <Phazorx> well i tihnk it would be better if soemone would care about exporting these goods rather than accumulatiing
20:00:48  <Phazorx> kidna the game point there
20:01:34  <Rubidium> then start doing so, otherwise the game will become even more slow
20:01:40  <TrueBrain> lol
20:01:43  <TrueBrain> that is the penality to pay
20:01:50  <TrueBrain> get the cargo out of there, or the game becomes REALLY slow :p
20:01:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> haha :p
20:02:03  <TrueBrain> (giving you more time to get the cargo out of there? :p)
20:02:12  <TrueBrain> we should make a button: trash cargo
20:02:16  <TrueBrain> where you can trash cargo of a station
20:02:36  <Rubidium> *but* this means that someone can trash a server by building a station that only accumulates cargo
20:02:48  <TrueBrain> capping sounds like a good idea :)
20:03:02  <SmatZ> Rubidium: not exactly what I want :(
20:03:07  <SmatZ> errr sorry
20:03:12  <SmatZ> bad window
20:03:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, freight stations need warehouses for waiting cargo
20:03:26  <TrueBrain> make the cap-amount a patch option :)
20:03:33  <Phazorx> Rubidium: i tihnk this will be rectiofied in a different manner with new industries
20:03:38  <Phazorx> where you have stockpile caps ?
20:03:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can have small/medium/big warehouses for 1000/5000/20000 cargo
20:04:00  <Rubidium> a big warehouse of passengers
20:04:05  <Rubidium> hahaha ;)
20:04:06  <TrueBrain> :) Lol!
20:04:12  <TrueBrain> stocked :)
20:04:23  <Rubidium> 'cause Phazorx' game is almost completely passenger based
20:04:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> those are called "waiting halls" :p
20:04:36  <TrueBrain> let them die when they wait too long
20:04:48  <SmatZ> :-D
20:04:49  <Phazorx> it;s not almost
20:04:51  <Phazorx> it is completely
20:04:57  <Phazorx> there are 4 industries on the map
20:05:00  <Phazorx> and that are untouched
20:05:18  <Rubidium> hmm
20:05:40  <Phazorx> it looks nice tho
20:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> i always suggested additional non-track station buildings
20:05:53  <Phazorx> 5 towns, totla pop 1.5M :)
20:06:00  <Rubidium> I think we should make the "cargo dissappear from stations" function in such a manner that after a certain amount of cargo the amount that disappears increases exponentially or so
20:06:17  <Phazorx> Rubidium: with seevere rating and authorities penalty
20:06:20  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: do cargo packets keep track how long cargo is waiting?
20:06:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> like water refill sections for steam engines (can only travel limited amount of tiles without reaching a refill station)
20:06:28  <Rubidium> not on stations
20:06:42  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: maybe we should, and kill cargo that stays too long (with a chance of course)
20:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> or transformator stations, which can support x electric engines in the region
20:07:00  <SmatZ> cargo packets are being merged to reduce their number (afaik)
20:07:25  <Rubidium> SmatZ: yes, but till a max size of 65535 "items" per packet
20:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> SmatZ: each cargo packet can only hold 32k cargo
20:07:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> if he has 1M waiting that will not help
20:08:05  <SmatZ> yes, that's true - but it is the reason why cargo won't age ... only groups of 32/64k of cargo
20:08:28  <SmatZ> then, let die all of 32/64k passangers at once... :-x
20:08:29  <TrueBrain> changing that is very simple of course
20:09:20  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: won't it lead in hundreds of thousands cargo packets, each with 1-5 passangers?
20:09:51  <TrueBrain> possible, yes
20:09:55  <TrueBrain> but most likely it won't
20:10:02  <SmatZ> well, they can die slowly... like the radioactive things do
20:10:04  <TrueBrain> you can for example merge packets in groups of 5 days
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20:10:28  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: would mean adding another variable to the packets
20:10:33  <TrueBrain> true
20:11:04  <Rubidium> I'd say to just trash exponentially more cargo *after* a certain threshold
20:11:14  <SmatZ> yes
20:11:19  <TrueBrain> fine by me :p
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20:12:12  <Rubidium> though I don't have an idea for that threshold and the rate; could also be linear I guess
20:13:10  <Rubidium> 25 000 and then trash 1 for every two "entities" above that and cap it at 100 000?
20:13:23  <SmatZ> maybe for every 10000 of the same cargo divide any further incoming cargo by 2 ?
20:13:44  <SmatZ> eg. incoming_cargo >>= (waiting_cargo >> 13)
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20:14:57  <Rubidium> seems fairly efficient to me
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20:16:19  <Rubidium> hmm, that method kinda sucks though
20:16:54  <Rubidium> doing that on unloading/transfers makes that code more complex and places the code in two places
20:18:28  <Rubidium> unless
20:18:40  <SmatZ> well it could be if (incoming->from == here) incoming >>= ...
20:19:10  <Rubidium> yes, but then you still get the same problem
20:19:29  <Rubidium> with unloading vehicles you can still flood the station and slow down the game considerably
20:20:43  <SmatZ> on one hand you do not want to remove stuff while it is on loading/unloading station, on the other you know it may be used to slow down the game when done intentionally
20:21:20  <SmatZ> it is hard to decide :(
20:22:42  <SmatZ> including aging for cargo packets would mean calling some procedure for all the cargo packets every tick/day ...
20:23:07  <SmatZ> I don't know anything about it, so I won't speak about it :) sorry
20:24:21  <Rubidium> yes, but the current "age" of packets doesn't tell anything about the time at the station
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20:37:26  <Rubidium> <- something like this should suffice I guess
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20:40:03  <SmatZ> Rubidium: the << and / operator priority may surprise you :)
20:40:22  <TrueBrain> it is a const, not a define
20:40:37  * SmatZ says sorry
20:40:41  <TrueBrain> :)
20:40:45  <Rubidium> SmatZ: *if* it does then there is something horribly wrong with C++
20:41:20  <SmatZ> sorry I am really used to name only #define in uppercase :)
20:41:38  <TrueBrain> it is a bit confusing yes
20:41:47  <TrueBrain> enums would be more in place for uppercase :)
20:47:10  <Rubidium> Phazorx: your game should run much better with r10555 ;)
20:47:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10555 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange/Fix: add a soft limit of 4096 "entities" in a station's waiting queue and a hard limit of 32768 so (malicious) people cannot cause a "denial of service" attack by filling cargo lists.
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20:48:08  <SmatZ> well I would reather see that 'difference >>= difference >> 13' as it is progressive
20:48:45  <Rubidium> SmatZ: so is this
20:48:53  <SmatZ> I just had some though and won't let it go :D
20:49:53  <Mizipzor> omg... there are apparently people who refuse to use msn and still only uses icq... :S didnt see that one coming
20:50:09  <SmatZ> is it? it just removes 1/64 of everything over 4096, doesn't it?
20:50:58  <Rubidium> difference / 64
20:51:09  <SmatZ> yes yes :)
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20:54:09  <Rubidium> difference >>= difference >> 13 gives 8191 -> 8191, 8192 -> 4096 (or am I missing something?)
20:55:10  <Rubidium> and 16383 -> 8191, 16384 -> 4096
21:01:36  <SmatZ> no you are absolutelly right
21:02:49  <SmatZ> today it is not my day at all
21:04:19  <Belugas> Today is not my day anymore
21:04:21  <Belugas> it is the weekend
21:04:24  <Belugas> bye guys
21:04:33  <SmatZ> bye
21:04:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> Mizipzor: you might find that having "microsoft" in the name often drives people away from that product, especially people with an IT background
21:06:04  <Mizipzor> Eddi|zuHause3, hmm... maybe... hehe
21:07:46  <Rubidium> Mizipzor: I refuse to use both msn and icq ;)
21:08:14  <Mizipzor> Rubidium, what do you use for im purposes then? only irc?
21:09:03  <Rubidium> that or face-to-face (i.e. IRL)
21:09:23  <Rubidium> not really im though
21:09:57  <Rubidium> anyway, the problem with especially msn is that it doesn't have a proper cli-client
21:10:18  <glx> it's not made for cli
21:10:18  <Rubidium> and I don't know people who use icq
21:13:15  <Rubidium> (or don't know they are using it)
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21:14:33  <Maarten> ah here is the openttd channel :)
21:14:52  <DaleStan> Rubidium: Does Finch not do what you want? I know it can talk to MSN.
21:14:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> trouble using your client?
21:15:36  <Rubidium> DaleStan: never heard of it
21:16:17  <DaleStan> My understanding is that it's the text-mode version of Pidgin (which used to be called Gaim)
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21:43:41  <TrueBrain> Wolf01|AWAY: how is lego going?
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21:51:19  <Wolf01> i'm thinking about the roads
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22:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> you should not have bumps on the road
22:16:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> only next to the road
22:17:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> and you should align trees to the bumps :)
22:18:57  <Wolf01> i'll make the roads like these:
22:20:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, i remember that lego roads were grey
22:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> not black
22:20:47  <Ailure> heh
22:20:48  <Wolf01> these are built by little pieces
22:20:51  <Ailure> I found something funny
22:20:58  <Ailure> if you use newGRF's on your titlescreen
22:21:02  <Ailure> and change newGRF settings
22:21:11  <Ailure> everything defaults to orginal graphics
22:21:21  <Ailure> which means that some trains get stuck as their engine is replaced by a wagon
22:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> what do you mean by changing newgrfs of the title?
22:22:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> you mean that newgrf changes from the menu affect the title screen game?
22:22:56  <Digitalfox_Desktop> TT Forums are down.. maintenance :(
22:23:25  *** Sacro|Laptop [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:24:23  <Rubidium> maybe it becomes faster ;)
22:26:12  <Digitalfox_Desktop> Lets hope so :) But actually  i don't notice a lot of slow down in TT Forums.. Actually are one of the fastest forums i go to.. :)
22:26:38  <TrueBrain> might be the hardware pumping behind it :p
22:27:30  <glx> Ailure: yes it's because action F grfs
22:27:43  <Thomas[NL]> it gets migrated to PHPBB3
22:28:50  <glx> they need to be always initialised so all other grfs are initialised too (but not fully loaded) and that removes all grfs that could be in title screen
22:30:28  <DaleStan> Indeed. Well, pbpBB 3 rc3, AIUI.
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22:33:29  <Ailure> ah
22:33:34  <Ailure> well it's only a minor annoyance
22:33:48  <Ailure> it only happens when I mess with the newGRF settings, and that's rarely. :)
22:34:37  *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
22:35:03  <Digitalfox_Desktop> phpbb v3 has a lot of new features and changes, so would i love to see it in forums that use v2 :)
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22:39:10  <Digitalfox_Desktop> If anyone wants to see what's new and changed in v3
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22:45:27  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:18:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r10556 /branches/noai/ (12 files in 5 dirs):
23:18:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added AIAirport, which can build an airport
23:18:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added FindBestAircraft in AIVehicle
23:18:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: finished all AIVehicle commands for non-RVs
23:19:57  <TrueBrain> tada! Now people can make profitable airlines in their AI!
23:19:58  <TrueBrain> joy joy!
23:21:41  <SmatZ> good work :) I am really looking forward for some playable AI competitors ;)
23:22:09  <TrueBrain> create one ;)
23:23:14  <SmatZ> there are already some projects ... or at least were, so I hope they are still in development :)
23:24:41  <Ailure> ok
23:24:44  <Ailure> this is odd
23:24:50  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: so do I :)
23:24:54  <Ailure> I have a rather long bridge
23:25:06  <Ailure> sometimes thye signals ignore the train on the bridge
23:25:11  <SmatZ> :-) developing AI seems very hard...
23:25:12  <Ailure> resulted just into a crash now
23:25:21  <TrueBrain> it aint easy, that's for sure
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23:25:34  <TrueBrain> Ailure:
23:25:39  <SmatZ> Ailure: it is a known bug sorry :(
23:25:52  <Ailure> ok
23:26:09  <SmatZ> the patch might solve the problem, but peter is probably doing some revision of the code
23:26:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> wasn't there some "vehicles could not crash on bridges" commit recently?
23:26:43  <TrueBrain> night all
23:26:47  <Ailure> hmm
23:27:00  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: it is a different problem
23:27:05  <SmatZ> TrueBrain: night
23:27:15  <Ailure> heh
23:27:18  <Ailure> now it happened again
23:27:20  <Ailure> oh well
23:27:24  <Ailure> at least I work around the problem
23:27:26  <SmatZ> even with the patch?
23:27:28  <Ailure> by making that bridge one way
23:27:33  <Ailure> risky, but eh
23:27:41  <Ailure> the trains runs on the same speed
23:27:45  <Ailure> it shouldn't cause a crash
23:27:47  <Ailure> and breakdowns are off
23:27:51  <SmatZ> :-)
23:28:17  <Belugas> ho... DaleStan is back ! Welcome back among us Dalestan :)
23:28:26  <SmatZ> ho ho ho! :)
23:29:11  <DaleStan> Thanks.
23:34:42  <Ailure> I love when that happens
23:34:47  <Ailure> now the bug is purely beneficial :)
23:34:50  <Ailure> (it's a long bridge)
23:36:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> lmao :p
23:37:32  <Sacro|Laptop> minilzo.c:575: error: static declaration of '__lzo_copyright' follows non-static declaration
23:37:32  <Sacro|Laptop> minilzo.c:270: error: previous
23:38:57  <Rubidium> Sacro|Laptop: you broke it
23:39:07  <Sacro|Laptop> Rubidium:  i touched nothing
23:39:27  <Rubidium> no... and then it becomes magically static
23:39:55  <Rubidium> and the line numbers are off-by-a-lot
23:40:38  <Sacro|Laptop> i simply checked out r1 and typed make
23:42:25  * Sacro|Laptop posts a bug report
23:46:44  <SmatZ> Sacro|Laptop: are you posting a bug report for r1 ? :D
23:47:09  <Sacro|Laptop> SmatZ: i think i should
23:48:09  <SmatZ> it will be closed immediatelly - already fixed or invalid...
23:48:31  <Sacro|Laptop> D: no fun
23:48:35  <SmatZ> :)
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