Config
Log for #openttd on 22nd July 2009:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:08  *** Jolteon [~Jolteon@5acb3168.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:00:12  <glx> yes full install 1.28GB, help+sample 1.10GB :)
00:00:23  <Yrol> yes
00:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> "travellers to bulgaria are warned that officers at the border demand fake fees for a "mandatory swine flu shot"
00:00:56  <glx> nice way to make money :)
00:01:15  <Eddi|zuHause> "neither does a swine flu shot exist, nor is it known what is actually in the shot"
00:01:52  <Yrol> ah, the compiling guide for MSVC 2005 is far better. it even mentions where to get the SVN
00:03:40  <glx> [16:05:38] <+glx> Yrol: http://wiki.openttd.org/Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_2008_Express_Editions is a good start (though it misses windows sdk 6.1 step, but this step is on http://wiki.openttd.org/Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_2005_Express_Editions )
00:03:46  <glx> I already said it ;)
00:04:26  <Yrol> yes. as i said, 2005 is better. maybe a hint on the 2008 version to use the 2005 version as base would be useful.
00:04:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: it's a wiki. improve it.
00:05:03  <Yrol> (Eddi|zuHause) not my place. im just a user.
00:05:04  <OwenS> Note to self: On Solaris box, never do #killall
00:05:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: exactly your place, as you now know the information that you lacked
00:05:43  <Yrol> and i dont mean it in the emaning of tron ;o)
00:06:00  <OwenS> Solaris killall != Linux killall by a large margin
00:06:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: the devs do not edit the wiki. their time is too valuable for that
00:07:02  <Yrol> sorry, but that just sounds wrong, Eddi|zuHause
00:07:13  <glx> that's a wiki
00:07:31  <glx> that's how it's meant to be used :)
00:07:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: it's a wiki. users edit it.
00:08:11  <glx> sometime devs edit it (usually to fix big lies)
00:08:39  <glx> but we rarely look at the wiki
00:08:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: sometimes the view of an outsider is exactly what a documentation needs
00:11:44  <Akoz> what are the rules in GPL license when posting binaries?
00:12:03  <OwenS> Source for the code they are based upon must be provided
00:12:18  <glx> a diff/patch is tolerated
00:12:33  <Akoz> it must be in the same file? (zip for instance)?
00:12:41  <OwenS> no
00:12:51  <glx> you must be able to provide the full source on request
00:12:58  <Akoz> but.. http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=44446
00:13:03  <Akoz> Last edited by Rubidium on Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
00:13:03  <Akoz> Follow the rules in GPL license (COPYING) when posting binaries
00:13:15  <Akoz> I posted the .exe in a zipfile
00:13:21  <Akoz> should I add some documentation in there or smth?
00:13:58  <glx> exe is not enough for openttd
00:14:18  <Akoz> adding all added up to 4,5 mb and max size is 4
00:14:27  <Yrol> okay. i added a tiny thing
00:14:30  <glx> lang files and data files corresponding to the exe are needed to
00:15:00  <Akoz> ok.. but is that why the post was removed?
00:15:26  <glx> ask rubidium for more details I think
00:16:23  <Yrol> glx., okay.. the exe-errors are gone with 6.1.. now the usual bughunting...
00:16:44  <Akoz> k, thx
00:16:52  <glx> first build a clean version Yrol :)
00:17:29  <Yrol> wont help :o( "Error	1	Error result -1073741819 returned from 'C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\cl.exe'.	Project
00:17:29  <Yrol> "
00:18:32  <glx> check the log
00:18:46  <glx> output tab
00:20:08  <Yrol> the same
00:20:10  <Yrol> "1>Project : error PRJ0002 : Error result -1073741819 returned from 'C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin\cl.exe'."
00:20:35  <glx> and nothing above this line ?
00:21:11  <Yrol> oh.. it seems, string.cpp is the bad guy
00:21:20  <Yrol> tahts the line above it
00:21:52  <Yrol> i mean... errrm. the line above it says "1>string.cpp" not "oh.. it seems, string.cpp is the bad guy"
00:21:56  <glx> paste all the output on paste.openttd.org
00:22:40  <Yrol> http://paste.openttd.org/184396
00:23:20  <Yrol> i cleaned it first and then did a rebuild. release-version.
00:23:36  <glx> 4>..\src\music\dmusic.cpp(16) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'dmksctrl.h': No such file or directory <-- incorrect dx sdk installation :)
00:24:22  <Yrol> well, dont we want to go from top error to bottom error?
00:24:27  <glx> hmm and strgen failed to build
00:26:01  <glx> but it stranged it compiled openttd even in table/strings.h generation failed
00:26:35  <Yrol> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31528&view=previous
00:27:09  <Yrol> ( last two posts) °growls° i really dislike it, when people post they found a solution, but dont post the solution
00:27:29  *** KUDr [~doctor@203.253.broadband9.iol.cz] has joined #openttd
00:27:36  *** OwenS [~oshepherd@host86-145-221-7.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:28:14  <Yrol> why do i get a dmusic error, if i set it up to not use music?
00:28:24  <glx> hmm cl segfaulted
00:31:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that's microsoft quality at work for you ;)
00:31:57  <glx> http://www.mskbarticles.com/index.php?kb=967485
00:32:01  <Yrol> okay, i switched off the dxmusicpart.. aaaand get the next error °sigh°
00:32:09  <glx> may solve your cl crash problem
00:33:13  <Yrol> i didnt had those problems i tried last to compile openttd a year ago ( you might remember, glx ) since then i upgraded my pc. it now has 2 cores, maybe thats the issue?
00:36:22  <Yrol> (Eddi|zuHause) well, at lest i dont have to "fight the OS" with MS.
00:36:34  <Yrol> so a big step with problems is gone already
00:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't fight the OS... you need to live in symbiotic cooperation
00:37:28  <Yrol> with linux? sorry, im not a computer ;oP
00:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that is your problem
00:37:49  <Yrol> 1
00:37:55  <glx> linux is user friendly now
00:37:55  <Yrol> ( in boolean )
00:38:36  <keoz> (lol)
00:38:58  <Yrol> glx, there are userfriendly GUIs just like MSVC around for linux? so i dont need to do the whole typing?
00:39:03  <Eddi|zuHause> opposing to the popular opinion, a "1" does not mean anything to the computer... boolean is only the form of storage of the data, not their interpretation
00:40:07  <Yrol> opposing to that sentence, eddie :o) you cant read a sentence without interpreting it. ( okay, you REALLY are a computer °winks° )
00:42:05  <Yrol> however... im glad all over my body already, that there are some people alive and helping. and even without pointing me to that disgusting pamphlet "how to ask question in a smart way" °shudders°
00:45:36  *** Zorn [~zorn@e177230061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
00:53:17  *** Zorni [~zorn@e177239063.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:57:52  <Yrol> hmmm glx ?
00:58:09  <glx> ?
00:58:22  <Yrol> it doesnt seem to be a problem with MSVC, but with how openttd was coded "The problem occurs only when the number of members in the class far exceeds the recommended maximum of 4,096."
00:59:21  <glx> but it's not the case
00:59:29  <Yrol> "When the Debug Information Format option is turned on when you build the source" where can i switch off that DIF-option?
01:00:04  <glx> and string.cpp is also compiled for openttd
01:03:21  <glx> hmm open strgen properties
01:07:22  *** Sionide [sionide@cornflakes.imen.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:07:58  *** reldred [~Richard_E@wirele5.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #openttd
01:11:31  *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.]
01:13:45  *** Sionide [sionide@cornflakes.imen.org.uk] has joined #openttd
01:14:07  <Yrol> uh oh...
01:14:21  <Yrol> glx., i switched now to a more verbose debugsystem
01:14:38  <Yrol> massive flooding of warnings and erros, but also more information about the string-error
01:14:51  <Yrol> "Error	1	fatal error C1902: Program database manager mismatch; please check your installation	k:\OPENTTD\svn.openttd.org\src\string.cpp	1
01:15:40  <glx> even after a full rebuild ?
01:15:51  <Yrol> yes, cleaned and rebuilt
01:16:20  <Yrol> i also downloaded the 800 MB MSVC service pack, but... that cant be used for the express editions
01:16:36  *** reldred1 [~Richard_E@wirele5.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #openttd
01:16:47  <Yrol> (Eddi|zuHause) did you ever played homeworld?
01:16:57  <glx> what's the exact version installed ?
01:16:59  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i recall...
01:17:03  <glx> (about box)
01:17:21  <Yrol> hello mr. richard edlund. please dont dismember anyone here °winks°
01:18:15  <Yrol> v9.0.30729.1 SP
01:18:22  <Yrol> seems, its installed already
01:18:31  <glx> yes that's SP1
01:18:40  <Yrol> at least something
01:18:58  <glx> and I have the same version
01:20:13  <Yrol> (Eddi|zuHause) its anice 3d space strategy realtime game, a bit old though. and has a very nice soundtrack available for free, collected by the community. ncie ambient stuff
01:21:01  *** reldred [~Richard_E@wirele5.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:27:15  <Yrol> °laughs° i love MS... glx... from a forum about that databasemanager error "The compiler is finding the wrong version of mspdbsrv.exe.  Or it always used the wrong version and now it is finding the right one. "
01:27:46  *** Sionide [sionide@cornflakes.imen.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:28:18  <glx> yes MS world is full of fun stuff
01:28:24  <Yrol> (glx) http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/Vsexpressvc/thread/0ff23fa1-0788-405e-b6c9-034c013d3652
01:28:41  <Yrol> hm, what if i simply disable the support for multiple parallel builds?
01:34:47  <Yrol> (glx) do you have this cl.exe version? 15.0.30729.1
01:34:56  <Yrol> in C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\bin
01:36:25  <glx> hmm I have 15.0.21022.8
01:36:38  <glx> so no SP1 for cl.exe
01:39:05  <glx> I installed using the iso
01:41:11  <Yrol> hm.. cl.exe seems to be included in the .net framework too
01:48:55  <Yrol> ha! :o) http://support.microsoft.com/kb/967485
01:49:11  *** Sionide [sionide@cornflakes.imen.org.uk] has joined #openttd
01:51:52  <Yrol> but where do i put that "/typedil-"?
01:53:55  <glx> dunno
02:00:21  *** KenjiE20|LT [~Kenji@host86-171-245-188.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
02:03:32  <Yrol> i dont think, it has to do with the string-file at all. it happens to all cpp files actually
02:04:08  <Yrol> http://paste.openttd.org/184397
02:05:03  *** Chruker [~no@0x5da34ce4.vjnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit []
02:05:52  <Yrol> http://www.tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1360371&page=17
02:14:09  <Yrol> okay, im off to bed and loko tomorrow into this again
02:14:19  <Yrol> thanks for help and food :o) °waves°
02:14:41  *** Yrol [~Yrol@BAF14b5.baf.pppool.de] has quit [Quit: MOOOOOOOOOO?????]
02:32:29  *** orudge` [~orudge@189.87.115.33] has quit []
02:35:41  *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:19d5:6c8c:f1cb:a280] has quit [Quit: bye]
02:36:45  *** keoz [~keikoz@pha75-8-82-230-2-115.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
03:08:13  *** TinoDidriksen [~tino@port432.ds1-od.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:12:24  *** TinoDidriksen [~tino@port432.ds1-od.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
03:32:03  *** Fuco [~dota.keys@ip-105.imafexbb.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:38:38  *** TinoDidriksen [~tino@port432.ds1-od.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:42:44  *** TinoDidriksen [~tino@port432.ds1-od.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
03:55:19  *** LaSeandre [~quinngree@host86-147-57-75.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Wooooo!]
04:17:29  *** Pygma [~quassel@88.151.27.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:38:18  *** Splex [~splex@121.165.245.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:20:36  *** Splex [~splex@121.165.245.76] has joined #openttd
05:26:19  *** reldred1 [~Richard_E@wirele5.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
05:48:35  *** reldred [~Richard_E@wirele5.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #openttd
06:01:19  *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm132.psi140.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd
06:02:20  *** Zorn [~zorn@e177230061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:21:04  *** Jolteon` is now known as Jolteon
06:50:48  *** reldred1 [~Richard_E@wirele5.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #openttd
06:56:39  *** reldred [~Richard_E@wirele5.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:59:28  *** Jolteon [~Jolteon@5ad090ba.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:15:06  *** ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.11] has joined #openttd
07:22:43  *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
07:23:16  *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm132.psi140.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
07:33:22  *** reldred1 [~Richard_E@wirele5.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
07:43:08  *** wolfy [~Wolfenste@dhcp-077-250-089-252.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
07:43:23  *** fonsinchen [~alve@BAE95cd.bae.pppool.de] has joined #openttd
07:57:45  *** reldred [~Richard_E@115.131.202.205] has joined #openttd
08:00:00  *** reldred1 [~reldred@115.131.202.205] has joined #openttd
08:02:29  *** Xyzzy [c40fc9c9@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
08:19:26  *** keoz [~keikoz@pha75-8-82-230-2-115.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd
08:52:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16908 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: s/DepotWaypointReservation/DepotReservation/
08:54:55  *** Azrael- [~azraeluk@cpc4-papw2-0-0-cust778.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd
09:01:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16910 /trunk/src/lang/ (43 files in 2 dirs): -Update: remove removed strings from the other language files
09:01:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16909 /trunk/src/ (40 files in 5 dirs):
09:01:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2996]: NewGRF stations would be triggering assertions all over the place when using the more advanced station types.
09:01:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: make (rail) waypoints sub classes of 'base stations', make buoys waypoints and unify code between them where possible.
09:05:00  *** Lisa [~lisalar@n-17-62.sbnett.no] has joined #openttd
09:05:09  <Lisa> hm
09:05:31  *** Lisa is now known as Guest113
09:05:42  <Guest113> is there a register system :x
09:05:54  *** Guest113 is now known as Liza
09:05:59  <Akoz> add some digits and Im sure it'll be fine ;)
09:06:06  <Liza> i think that works
09:07:29  *** OwenS [~oshepherd@host86-145-221-7.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
09:07:58  <planetmaker> Maybe English people will pronounce it even more correctly this way :-P
09:08:41  <Liza> Lizard?
09:09:13  <planetmaker> I referred to pronounciation of z vs. s
09:09:21  <Liza> ze, es
09:09:29  <Liza> norwegian prononciation
09:09:39  <Liza> ce, es actualy
09:09:47  <planetmaker> dunno norwegian. but I guess one will be voiced one not.
09:10:11  <Liza> zc is pretty much the same on norwegian, z is never used
09:10:37  <planetmaker> like the difference between _s_ame and mu_s_ic
09:10:56  <Liza> hmm i dont hear any difference :P
09:10:59  <Liza> s is s to me :P
09:11:01  <planetmaker> :-O
09:11:04  <Liza> in both words
09:11:11  <Liza> i guess im saying them wrong then
09:11:12  <Akoz> *votes with Liza*
09:11:38  <Liza> but thats what happends when your born in norway, and learn norwegian
09:12:48  <Liza> who is planetmaker anyway?
09:13:11  <planetmaker> me
09:13:12  <Akoz> he is the maker of planets
09:13:12  <Ammler> some call him god
09:13:21  <Liza> O.o
09:13:33  <planetmaker> some call Ammler description highly over-rated
09:13:36  <planetmaker> :-)
09:13:49  <Liza> i see :P
09:14:33  <Liza> hmm, a possible fix suggestion for ottd should be able to build while negative money
09:14:49  <planetmaker> You got a loan for that
09:14:53  <planetmaker> You can borrow more
09:14:54  <Liza> gets bit dangerus when you only have a few more meters to go and run out of cash
09:15:05  <Liza> in early game the only time you need a loan :P and cant loan more
09:15:38  <Tefad> it's called planning..
09:15:47  <OwenS> Stupid stupid stupid... Biig box arrives. Open it up to find foam, more foam, even more foam, lots of air... and an 160GB HD
09:15:48  <Akoz> its called gambling
09:15:54  <Tefad> heh.
09:16:03  <Liza> then how can i afford building a long train to a city and fill it whit people and crash it :( whit another train that i cant afford
09:16:05  <Tefad> i always start with a short coal route
09:16:08  <OwenS> That box was big enough to contain all the other parts of my oder!
09:16:15  <Akoz> thats why you always loose Tefad
09:16:15  <Liza> Tefad i only play on desert maps
09:16:16  <Tefad> or even RVs..
09:16:18  <Liza> there are no coal mines
09:16:23  <Akoz> the long coal route always wins
09:16:32  <Tefad> well whatever works on desert..
09:16:33  <Tefad> water?
09:16:36  <Akoz> oil
09:16:39  <Liza> too expensive
09:16:48  <Akoz> water works too
09:17:01  <Akoz> but oil is best
09:17:01  <Liza> anyway there should be natural cargo loss when transfering those types of goods
09:17:05  <Liza> due the heat
09:17:16  <Akoz> from ceiled containers?
09:17:29  <Liza> and for steamtrains there should be nessessary to place watertowers along the track
09:17:46  <Liza> sorta like what they did whit electric
09:18:00  <Liza> exept that was sorta unnessessary since most trains hide the electric as a 3rd rail
09:18:06  <planetmaker> What would it add to gameplay?
09:18:09  <Liza> so boys can pee on it
09:18:18  <Liza> that was what i was wondering when they added electric rails
09:18:20  <OwenS> Erm.. most trains 3rd rail? What? Since when?
09:18:24  <Liza> then why not steam too
09:18:32  <Liza> Owen i dunno that :P
09:18:46  <Tefad> 3rd rail for metros maybe
09:18:47  <Liza> in anycase poled electric to height has its downsides too
09:18:47  <planetmaker> uhm... there's no 3rd rail in that sense. There's plain, there's electric, there's monorail and there's maglev
09:18:50  <OwenS> The only 3rd rail trains I know are urban ones
09:19:00  <Liza> those are futuristic ØP
09:19:11  <Liza> only used in one contry i think that monorail
09:19:29  <OwenS> there a short Maglev line installed in China
09:19:38  <OwenS> planetmaker: Shame we can't do like Locomotion with addable 3rd rail & catenary
09:19:59  <planetmaker> I dunno Locomotion.
09:20:06  <planetmaker> Nor do I actually have intend to do so :-)
09:20:07  <Liza> meh, it would be fun to have a harder game
09:20:11  <Liza> seriusly hard isnt very hard
09:20:17  <Liza> and now whit the ease use of light signals
09:20:20  <Liza> it hasnt been easyer
09:20:41  <planetmaker> Liza, get e.g. the 2cc Train Set, start in 1920, use also egrvts and use high building costs.
09:20:58  <planetmaker> Maybe even add ECS industries or at least Pikkabird industries
09:21:06  <TrueBrain> morning all
09:21:09  <OwenS> Mornin
09:21:12  <planetmaker> good morning TrueBrain
09:21:37  <Liza> hmm
09:21:44  *** paul_ [~paul@94.76.226.86] has joined #openttd
09:22:01  <Liza> also i would like to see r&d in game, where you can put money in reserch, else it takes longer for new train types to appear
09:22:18  <Liza> or shorter if you can afford funding it, and or giveing the one that funds most 2 or 1 year advance use, like they have now
09:22:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16911 /trunk/docs/ (landscape.html landscape_grid.html): -Update: map array documentation
09:22:46  *** DephNet[Paul] [~paul@host86-140-69-225.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:23:21  *** paul_ [~paul@94.76.226.86] has left #openttd []
09:23:33  *** DephNet[Paul] [~paul@94.76.226.86] has joined #openttd
09:24:42  <planetmaker> Liza, that would need a person sufficiently interested in that feature and sufficiently knowledgable in programming to implement it.
09:25:16  <planetmaker> and it would need deciding on all those issues how that relates to existing NewGRF which define introduction dates etc pp. Not an easy thing to do.
09:25:23  <Liza> just add a int per train that is water level, and it drains per sec of travel or somethintg
09:25:33  <Liza> and passing a water tower or forceing trains to stop and refill
09:25:37  <Liza> i honestly dont see the difficulty
09:25:51  *** tokai [~tokai@p54B80DDC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:26:06  <Liza> but then again i havent checked what language ottd is written in :P
09:26:10  <planetmaker> I referred to the r&d "proposal"
09:26:25  <Liza> ah, that i dunno, just make a ref to the years train come
09:26:36  <Liza> and push that year time based on funds stored in another int
09:26:53  <Liza> that people can send their money to of corse
09:26:58  <Liza> add of a few buttons :P
09:27:31  <Liza> virsa versa if no money then train come a few years later, realisticly train industry has to r&d more trains :P
09:27:46  <Liza> and it doesnt need to be in normal game, just a added challenge :P
09:28:04  <Alberth> can you add a condition to releasing a train for use, or is it just a fixed year?
09:28:07  *** tokai [~tokai@p54B80C97.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
09:28:10  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
09:28:32  <Liza> i think its fixed years
09:28:35  <Liza> right now
09:28:44  <Liza> but as whit all numbers :P allways fun to change
09:29:06  <Alberth> in NewGRF I mean. If the former, you could make an industry that does what you want, I think
09:29:39  <Liza> hm?
09:29:50  <Liza> what do you want
09:30:05  <Alberth> have r&d in the game
09:30:24  <Liza> i was speaking in speculation and suggestive manner :P
09:30:25  <Alberth> in the form of needing to deliver 'enough' cargo to some industry
09:30:32  <Liza> sure that can be a factor too
09:30:54  <Alberth> I was thinking aloud in ways to implement it :p
09:30:59  <Liza> nice ;)
09:31:22  <Liza> you should allways say what your thinking ;)
09:31:34  <planetmaker> Liza, it was actually clear :-)
09:31:55  * Liza is puzzeled
09:32:22  <planetmaker> Kowing who he is, but more so knowing roughly how the newgrf system works, make clear what he proposes :-)
09:32:23  <Alberth> there are a bunch of NewGRF wizards here that understand my question :)
09:33:06  <planetmaker> FYI, Liza : newgrf are not just new graphics, but it can define also quite a bit of game mechanics.
09:33:22  <planetmaker> it's a whole plug-in system in a way.
09:33:29  <Liza> nice
09:33:47  <planetmaker> it just needs people who write those newgrf. You could be the one who does the first r&d newgrf :-)
09:34:03  <Liza> ooh i dont know about that
09:34:11  <Liza> writeing new grfs are quite expensive
09:34:55  <Alberth> most of us make new things because we want some feature in the game
09:35:29  <Liza> sorta like monkey see monkey do?
09:35:43  <Liza> iam just kidding :D
09:36:00  <Liza> what language do you guys?
09:36:07  <OwenS> For NewGRF coding?
09:36:09  <OwenS> It's called NFO
09:36:31  <Liza> nfo, hmm dont think iv heard of it, im gona haf to check up on that
09:36:33  <Akoz> its not pretty :<
09:36:43  <Liza> its not object oriented?
09:36:51  <Alberth> ROFL!
09:36:52  <OwenS> It's not even procedural!
09:36:55  <Liza> National Farmers Organization (NFO)
09:37:02  <Akoz> lol
09:37:14  <Liza> so you make fields in logical data pattern
09:37:14  <Akoz> nah its not pretty at all
09:37:21  <Liza> and hopefor the best that it will work in game?
09:37:49  <Akoz> from what I gathered you just fetch info from available places and then display it somewhere
09:37:54  <Akoz> so you cant really program anything
09:38:33  <Liza> yes
09:38:35  <Liza> thats normal
09:39:06  <OwenS> NFO is basically an assembly language for the interpreter :p
09:39:14  <Liza> 100111010
09:39:29  <Akoz> assembly > NFO imo
09:39:34  <OwenS> Yeah
09:39:42  <Akoz> in assembly you can acctually do stuff :p
09:39:43  <OwenS> NFOs a confusing hybrid of declarative and weird :p
09:39:48  <Liza> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.nfo
09:39:49  <Liza> nice
09:39:57  <Liza> :P
09:40:06  <Liza> ascii art and text
09:40:10  <Akoz> nope, try again
09:40:32  <Akoz> this: http://svn.openttd.org/extra/ottd_grf/split/openttd.nfo
09:40:34  <Akoz> is what it looks like
09:40:35  <Liza> altavista isnt pointing to anything i see thats programing oriented
09:40:44  <Akoz> I just googled "openttd nfo"
09:40:45  <Akoz> ;)
09:41:00  <Liza> ok // thats normal
09:41:06  <OwenS> Thats normal?!
09:41:19  <OwenS> What programming anguage have yoy been using?!
09:41:21  <Liza> yes for text :P
09:41:30  <Liza> for typeing comments inside programs :P
09:41:41  <Liza> like :P /* */
09:41:46  <Liza> anyway reading
09:41:47  <OwenS> Oh yeah the comments are normal. Nothing else is
09:41:48  <Akoz> that isnt part of the nfo
09:42:07  <OwenS> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=NewGraphicsSpecs is the NFO reference
09:42:07  <Akoz> this is nfo:
09:42:08  <Akoz>    -1 * 0	 07 9D 04 = 01 00 00 00 01
09:42:08  <Akoz>    -1 * 0	 0B 03 7F FF 80
09:42:21  <Liza> ouch
09:42:25  <Liza> pretty close to assember :P
09:42:32  <Liza> looks like it actualy
09:42:45  <OwenS> No it doesn't. Believe me. It looks far worse :p
09:42:59  <Liza> ouch, why do you guys use such a difficuly language :P
09:43:07  <TrueBrain> 10 lines, and all it can do is bitch about everything
09:43:11  <OwenS> Ask PatchMan. It's TTDPatch's invention :p
09:43:14  <Liza> there are plenty of easyer languages to use nowdays >.<
09:43:23  <TrueBrain> scrap, 15 lines
09:43:25  <OwenS> NFO is... quite old
09:43:30  <Liza> no doupt about that
09:43:33  <Akoz> its just so that not "anybody" can go and mess around with grfs :p
09:43:47  <Liza> very convinient for a OPEN source prodject >.<
09:43:48  <OwenS> Also... No programming language matches the speed
09:43:57  <Liza> assembler?
09:44:06  <Akoz> *assembly
09:44:18  <Liza> doesnt that match its speed :P
09:44:28  <TrueBrain> Liza: can you at least try to put one line out that isn't negative in any way?
09:44:45  <Liza> well
09:44:51  <Akoz> gj
09:44:51  <Liza> the things you copypasted has a black square after 0
09:44:52  <Akoz> <Liza> well
09:44:53  <Akoz> ;)
09:45:06  <Liza> so i dunno if mirc norwegian language displays it correctly
09:45:09  <OwenS> I will admit I've only seen one more baroque language than NFO. And thats the microassembly for my processor :P
09:45:14  <Liza> -1 x 0 = o :P
09:45:31  <TrueBrain> OwenS: try out brainfuck or whitespace or that shit
09:45:46  <Liza> adress a=memory adress?
09:45:57  <TrueBrain> Liza: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=NewGraphicsSpecs
09:45:58  <Liza> and line under i dunno -1x0 again
09:46:07  <Liza> and a memory adress?
09:46:13  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Perhaps I should say "more barroque programming language that someone hasn't invented as a escoteric programming language"
09:46:20  <TrueBrain> OwenS: ;)
09:46:32  <Liza> well
09:46:49  <Liza> my language compared to this language makes c++ seem like english to me
09:46:54  <Liza> >.<
09:47:13  <TrueBrain> more complaining
09:47:16  <TrueBrain> give it a rest already
09:47:25  <Liza> motherbrain?
09:47:59  <Noldo> Whining will get you places
09:48:12  <TrueBrain> wine gets me in places :p
09:48:52  <TrueBrain> OwenS: you remind me that I had to laugh hard when I found out that a CPU has its own CPU, so to say (big state machine with code controlling that) .. it is funny to realise :p
09:48:58  <Liza> well, i guess i could get into nfo language
09:49:16  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Yeah. My microassembly is definitely not standard program like though :p
09:49:19  <OwenS> # Interrupt Return Instruction
09:49:20  <OwenS> 42	IRet	B=ILR, Store=IP, Next=*
09:49:22  <OwenS> *		B=IPSW, Store=PSW, Next=Op
09:49:26  <Liza> lots of black squares
09:49:28  <OwenS> I notice the tabs have been stripped >_<
09:50:15  <TrueBrain> like all sane clients do :p :p
09:50:19  <OwenS> Every microinstruction encodes the address of the next one. "Gotos considered harmful" indeed
09:51:09  <Liza> int money = 0;
09:51:09  <Liza> money = money + 1;
09:51:10  <TrueBrain> you got to love that shit, or run like hell :p
09:52:01  <Liza> from and to
09:52:11  <Liza> and int money declares where money is found
09:52:14  <Liza> in memory that is :P
09:52:24  <Liza> so i guess nfo you have to type the adresses manualy?
09:52:30  <Liza> :D
09:52:58  <Liza> 0x0AF010A1 = so on :P
09:54:08  <Alberth> NFO is not really a program (although it does have conditions), more a collection of data that gets used by the OpenTTD program.
09:54:15  <Liza> but from the looks of those lines you pasted it seem at least some stuff is readable :P so i guess your not useing referances to location where the function you wana run or something is adressed and so on makeing lts of adressing around
09:54:23  <Liza> script language?
09:55:03  <Alberth> each line defines something (the '-1 *' starts a new line)
09:55:22  <Liza> ok, so no endl ;)
09:55:26  <OwenS> TrueBrain: I guess my control unit could be described as microcode ROM, a bunch of multiplexers controlled by it's outputs and the instruction word, and a bunch of latches
09:55:45  <Liza> brb
09:56:56  <Alberth> Liza: iirc the first byte after '*' is the byte count, followed by 'byte count' bytes that express what you want. Browse the specs to get an idea of what you can do with it.
09:57:56  <Liza> this level of programing seem bit hard core for me :P
09:59:27  <Alberth> yes, it gets you in firm contact with bits and bytes :p
09:59:35  <Liza> im allergic
09:59:46  <Liza> :P
10:01:08  <Alberth> it is just a matter of getting used to, remember the first program that you saw, didn't it look like spanish to you? (assuming you cannot read spanish :p )
10:01:54  *** Exl [~myself@cp1224652-a.roemd1.lb.home.nl] has joined #openttd
10:03:02  <Liza> hmm, it was actualy basic i was first in contact whit :P
10:03:07  <Liza> handy script language
10:03:31  <Alberth> hmm, an airport built nest to a city announces it does not accept passengers and mail any more. That cannot be good :)
10:04:22  <Alberth> I prefer to use Python for that.
10:04:44  <Liza> yes iv been wanting to test phyton
10:04:51  <Liza> heard it was used in eve online
10:05:26  <Liza> stackless phyton that is
10:06:44  <Liza> why arnt you guys useing that language instead of nfo :P
10:07:32  <TrueBrain> most likely because there is like 5 years between stackless python and nfo .. nfo being there first
10:07:40  <Alberth> NFO is more just a collection of declarations, it is not really a program that is executed
10:08:00  <Liza> sounds like its time for upgrades ;)
10:08:25  <TrueBrain> sounds more to me it is time for an attitude change and respect a bit more what is done
10:08:47  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: what was it about starting a ignore list? :p
10:09:05  <Alberth> Also, NFO is large and complex. Several have tried to make something better, but doing that means either that you can support only a subset, or the 'better language' explodes in size and complexity.
10:09:12  <Liza> ah
10:09:26  <Liza> true that ottd runs pretty smooth
10:09:37  <Alberth> and a subset is no good :)
10:10:43  <Alberth> last but not least, NFO may look horrible, but once you get to understand it, it is really not that difficult.
10:11:12  <Alberth> (since you just have a bunch of data declaration lines)
10:11:20  <Liza> is there some webpage that has some help files on nfo?
10:11:26  <Liza> something to get started on?
10:11:39  <TrueBrain> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=NewGraphicsSpecs (sigh ...)
10:12:00  <Liza> graphics?
10:12:46  <Alberth> originally NewGRF's for just for adding graphics
10:13:37  <Liza> hmm
10:13:44  <Liza> then there might be problems adding r&d
10:13:58  <Liza> newgrf seem to be a script language
10:14:15  <Liza> some stuff can actualy need a main program modification
10:14:37  <Akoz> so do it in the program code
10:14:44  <Akoz> easier there anyway.. since you know cpp :)
10:15:03  <Liza> unless whole game is seperated into newgrfs, like a new button in gui for r&d?
10:16:00  <Alberth> now we come back to my thinking aloud :)
10:16:15  <Liza> well, in spring\ca they removed gui from client, and put it into luaui, so there wasnt a default user interface
10:16:35  <Liza> people pretty much made custom interfaces based on what they wanted and liked makeing buttons and so on
10:17:34  <TrueBrain> I see you have much to do Liza
10:17:40  <Liza> hmm, Alberth do you know about ottd gui?
10:18:20  <Alberth> Hmm, would I know? I have been working on that for the past year or two, or so :p
10:18:25  *** stuffcorpse [~rick@121.98.136.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:18:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16912 /trunk/ (33 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: split waypoint.h in waypoint_base.h and waypoint_func.h
10:18:42  *** stuffcorpse [~rick@121.98.136.241] has joined #openttd
10:19:03  <Liza> so, its possible to modify useing newGRF?, and or possibly replace the whole gui?
10:19:33  <Ammler> r8d?
10:19:34  <Liza> in case i wana try on a modification where i can raise the fontsize on things :P
10:19:49  <TrueBrain> fontsize is in openttd.cfg, much easier
10:19:59  <Liza> ok ;) but i was speaking theoreticaly
10:20:23  <Liza> change out all the menus and such
10:20:33  <Alberth> you can change the graphics, as eg done in OpenGFX. There are severe limitations atm since all buttons, labels, etc have fixed size.
10:20:46  <Liza> yes
10:20:46  <Alberth> I am working on getting that improved.
10:20:55  <Liza> nice
10:21:09  <Alberth> Ammler: r&d: research and development
10:21:10  <Liza> i just like to mention, in spring we have no fixed images on menus and such
10:21:22  <Liza> well exept unit icons
10:21:29  <TrueBrain> well, it seems you should join that game
10:21:31  <Liza> but that of corse could be replaced too
10:21:51  <Liza> im just wondering if newgrf allows stuff like that
10:21:59  <Liza> so i know limitations and such
10:22:37  <planetmaker> well... you can describe vehicles, industries, houses
10:22:47  <planetmaker> you can describe costs and interaction of all those
10:22:48  <Alberth> you can define all the graphics. Not sure what 'change the menu' would mean
10:23:02  <planetmaker> and you can replace pretty all graphics
10:23:28  <planetmaker> but you cannot yet change sizes of menus or alter window layouts
10:23:41  <Liza> ok, that was what i was wondering
10:23:47  <Alberth> so for the r&d, I was proposing an interaction between an industry and a vehicle
10:24:04  <Liza> that sounds pretty nifty
10:24:56  <Alberth> yep, you can control a large part of the game mechanics from NewGRFs
10:25:10  <Li