Log for #openttd on 30th January 2010:
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00:40:01  <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: you can pause the game while viewing the link graph, and it's fine :)
00:40:15  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: that's not the point...
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00:41:56  <SpComb^> well, it does say something
00:42:05  <SpComb^> redrawing the link graph every tick is too slow
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00:43:12  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a "redraw minimap after X ticks" constant, you know...
00:43:13  <dragonhorseboy> hey
00:44:06  <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: ah well, not the time of day to discuss details..
00:45:10  <fonsinchen> what's the problem with minimap and link graph?
00:45:46  <SpComb^> fonsinchen: lags up the game far worse than the normal view
00:46:22  <fonsinchen> Yes, I know.
00:46:50  <fonsinchen> There's much more it has to do, though.
00:46:51  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: each time i open the link graph i hear the fan speeding up and the game gets really sluggish
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00:47:35  <fonsinchen> The calculation of aggregate flows and plans for a link is quite expensive
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00:47:59  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: if it's so expensive to calculate, cache the variables for display somewhere
00:48:13  <fonsinchen> Maybe I should.
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00:49:21  <fonsinchen> But I won't get around the "FOR_ALL_STATIONS" / for all links in from station part.
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00:49:31  <SpComb^> but it isn't really such a critical thing, reading the linkgraph is pretty much an off-line activity for me..
00:49:55  <fonsinchen> It's probably a problem with network games
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00:50:06  <fonsinchen> You might get disconnected if you lag too much.
00:50:27  <SpComb^> heh, raise the daylength... has the useful side effect of stretching that time period ^^
00:51:17  <dragonhorseboy> fonsinchen one of the thing that annoys me is that for no reason ottd still can't seem to default to a non-zero value for netframe_freq yet. setting it to 20 always solves a lot of the dropoffs in my case
00:51:24  <dragonhorseboy> but meh
00:51:29  <fonsinchen> SpComb^: doesn't help if you keep the map open long enough
00:51:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure if lagging half an hour behind is "useful" :p
00:51:45  <dragonhorseboy> hey chris
00:51:48  <SpComb^> fonsinchen: joking
00:52:04  <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: what about displaying the chat messages for half an hour? :P
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00:52:39  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: i really don't understand why that is counted in days anyway
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00:53:57  <SpComb^> nor do I, but I haven't gotten around to patching it yet
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00:54:09  <SpComb^> it's also very annoying with paused multiplayer games...
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00:54:39  <dragonhorseboy> heh
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00:54:48  <dragonhorseboy> just like the last time between two of us right spcomb?
00:54:52  <SpComb^> quite
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00:56:00  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: have you had a chance to look at the savegame that guy posted? either i don't understand what he is doing wrong or he is just not listening to what i say
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00:57:02  <fonsinchen> I haven't gotten around to it yet.
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00:57:58  <SpComb^> fonsinchen: another thing you might want to consider at some point is reworking the settings towards a "don't change gameplay at default values" mode
00:58:39  <SpComb^> since that's going to be required anyways once it becomes more... mainstream? :)
00:58:50  <ChorizoGrueso> It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place!  No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right.  They never will!  The same goes for New Orleans!  Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed.  What have the niggers in New Orlea
00:58:50  <ChorizoGrueso> ns done?  If you are sick of this, join Chimpout forum!
00:58:51  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
00:58:51  <fonsinchen> That'd be easy: Set all demands to "unhandled" and the rating scaling to off
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00:59:46  <fonsinchen> however, for the moment I rather go for the "no need to change anything to play cargodist" mode.
00:59:51  <Zuu> Ah, nice cooked togeather some batch-running scripts for a Windows program using SendKeys and then a C++ program to read the from clipboard and write it to a file. :-)
01:00:42  <Zuu> Now I can just tell it to run a file via cli and then read the results in another file. :-)
01:01:52  <fonsinchen> Eddi|zuHause: Maybe the guy has very long settings for moving average length and unit?
01:02:02  <Sacro1> that forum is rather amusing....
01:02:06  <fonsinchen> That would explain the problem
01:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought we left this "defaults should be unchanged [=TTD] gameplay" phase behind us...
01:02:38  <SpComb^> fonsinchen: well, part of this would be making it easier to turn cargodist on
01:02:41  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: yeah, that's what i said, he said he didn't change them
01:03:21  <fonsinchen> maybe he has played some earlier version with the values from back then still being around in his openttd.cfg
01:03:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty damn sure he's just not listening to me...
01:04:05  <fonsinchen> In order to make it easy to turn cargodist on I need a set of defaults.
01:04:54  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: a "cargo destinations" switch in the difficulty gui, and the fine tuning in the advanced settings gui?
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01:05:33  <fonsinchen> Could be done, but I need defaults for the advanced settings. In order to get those, people have to try different settings and give me feedback.
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01:06:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm pretty sure 99,9% of the people don't get what a "moving average" is, have you thought about a more autoadaptive method?
01:07:07  <fonsinchen> I have already implemented one
01:07:21  <fonsinchen> The moving average settings hardly affect anything anymore.
01:07:52  <fonsinchen> I think r18533 was before that, though.
01:08:21  <Eddi|zuHause> well, he picked the wrong one from the daylength thread, even though i pointed to the right one...
01:10:48  <Eddi|zuHause> we should probably put that to rest as a layer 8 error...
01:10:54  <fonsinchen> from the daylength thread? So he's using cargodist with daylength?
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01:11:31  <fonsinchen> The moving average unit is measured in days ... so a long day length will inflate the moving average unit.
01:11:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i believe i read that out of his really non-descriptive posts
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01:12:15  <fonsinchen> Then it takes forever for dead links to time out.
01:12:29  <dragonhorseboy> talking with spcomb bought up an interesting question if noone would mind.. can you expand the 'Default Station' with more than just one single platform in the station construction list?
01:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> aha, might be an explanation
01:13:34  <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: what? the default station can have any amount of platforms
01:13:42  <dragonhorseboy> ok just had to wonder thanks
01:15:15  <dragonhorseboy> eddi do you still remember the mini-in builds btw?
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01:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i forgot everything about them...
01:19:02  <Eddi|zuHause> what a dumb question...
01:19:07  <SpComb^> I'd love to hear suggestions as to how to fix the moving-average-in-days when using daylength
01:19:44  <SpComb^> one could just hack it to use ORIG_DAY_TICKS, but then it isn't days anymore...
01:20:08  <SpComb^> also, I clearly need to fix up my topic to make the win32 binaries more obvious, even for german readers :)
01:22:08  <dragonhorseboy> hm well eddi and spcomb what would you two think of if say for example you built a long road linking two points but then at some later date decided to not run anything on it anymore...
01:22:46  <dragonhorseboy> as it is now you still keep paying for it (beside it getting in the way of someone's rail laying too) but the mini-in had the optional feature to eventually make the road ownerless when not used frequently enough
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01:23:24  <dragonhorseboy> I know that it might be tricky if only one or two rv was still using the road once in a long while but it could solve one old MP problem with other player being offline and their dead roads are in the way
01:23:33  <dragonhorseboy> just my own thought ;)
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01:24:12  <SpComb^> phpBB markup sucks because there's no [h1]/[h2] or indentations
01:24:56  <SpComb^> dragonhorseboy: dunno and don't care, I don't play competitive
01:25:07  <Zuu> Do you wish to do something with the h1/h2 on your browser?
01:25:11  <dragonhorseboy> for the record I don't know what the patch's name or author would had been because its oddly not mentioned anywhere in the first page on the mini-in thread
01:25:39  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb well competitive isn't the point.. the point was useless roads becoming stripped of whoever *was* owning them. but eh
01:27:06  <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: i believe it was called "abandoned roads"
01:27:25  <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: might be related to "grass on rails"
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01:28:40  <dragonhorseboy> one interesting thing I did try many times tho was that the fact city owned roads could become your own roads if you ran enoug bus frequently meaning even if the mayor hated you you still could blow up a shoreline city's old water bridge to replace with your own modern (faster top speed) one
01:29:06  <dragonhorseboy> eddi hmm that helped, thanks
01:31:04  <dragonhorseboy> admittly at least a lot of other mini-in features did make it into newer builds at least
01:31:18  <dragonhorseboy> and yes you CAN thank updated relastic accerlation for that too
01:31:21  <dragonhorseboy> on top of several others :)
01:32:43  <dragonhorseboy> btw I think I like that 'grass growth on unused tracks' thing .. would be amusing in a busy IS map when someone then realize that a rail link that hadn't ever been used for a long time is almost lost in very tall weed that the first train has to go really slowly through :p
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01:33:34  * dragonhorseboy tries to not type so much anymore for now (I seem to be filling the screen :S )
01:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: both patches need some kind of counter stored in the map
01:34:17  <Eddi|zuHause> which might be problematic for level crossings...
01:34:51  <dragonhorseboy> true on that
01:38:34  <dragonhorseboy> one feature they tried in the mini-in that I grew to hate right away after only one short game was the "slow down at road crossing" train option :S
01:38:42  * SpComb^ slight reformatting
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01:39:16  <dragonhorseboy> was a bit stupid when the trains kept slowing down to <50km/h (regardingly of whatever they were even for 260km/h 8000hp locos) every single freaking road tile to get to the city station :S
01:39:46  <dragonhorseboy> at least thankfully noone else seem to be ever wanting that kind of feature :)
01:40:12  <SpComb^> dragonhorseboy: what are 260km/h trains doing on level crossings? :)
01:40:32  <dragonhorseboy> spcomb better question: why did the mayor build these new roads in the stupid place of all the thing?
01:40:42  <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: that was never in MiniIN
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01:58:40  <dragonhorseboy> think I'm going to bed so bye
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02:07:41  * Belugas whistles and sings
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02:38:35  <Zuu> Oh, someone got home from the pub..
02:38:57  <Zuu> (lound party music)
02:46:50  <Zuu> Nha, I'll leave you singing alone Belugas. Since long, time to sleep :-)
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03:54:29  <Belugas> hehhe
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04:46:30  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
04:50:16  <Nite_Owl> anyone awake - I have an audio question
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07:04:40  <Lapsus> Hello! :3
07:04:52  <SirSquidness> Greetings! :3
07:05:55  <Lapsus> I have an idea for a graphics set for openttd and have no idea at all as to how to start or where to find out. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
07:06:20  <Lapsus> Probably a bad question at two AM, but here I am.
07:06:29  <SirSquidness> I have no idea whatsoever. But I can guarantee someone else in here will be able to guide you.
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07:09:29  <Lapsus> That's the hope :D
07:09:39  <roboboy> do you want to draw or code? 8BPP or 32BPP?
07:10:18  <Lapsus> Just a simple experiment, so mostly redrawing original graphics, 8bpp.
07:10:44  <Lapsus> or mercilessly tracing to see if I can do it at all at first :P
07:12:06  <Lapsus> I'm hoping that if I'm making edits to an existing set I can get by with minimal coding. Also this won't be for release at all :v
07:13:01  <roboboy> try for drawing
07:13:26  <roboboy> look at for getting it into the game
07:13:59  <roboboy> it was written for TTDPatch but it applys to OpenTTD as they both use the same spec mostly
07:14:03  <Lapsus> Thank you! :3
07:14:33  <roboboy> I had to hunt some of that down as I have not looked at it in ages
07:16:13  <roboboy> and I dont really know what im doing either
07:22:00  <Lapsus> Bah, GRFWizard requires ttdpatch to work, apparently
07:22:08  <Lapsus> google time I suppose.
07:22:54  <roboboy> hm never though of that
07:23:34  <roboboy> you looking for TTDPatch or some other way of using GRFCodec than its command line interface?
07:23:48  <Lapsus> Just grabbed ttdpatch
07:23:49  <Lapsus> lol
07:26:25  <Lapsus> Okay, command line time I suppose
07:29:18  <Lapsus> Ah, that worked
07:30:37  <Lapsus> A couple days of poking at this and I'll be set :v
07:30:42  <Lapsus> Thanks a lot roboboy :3
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08:14:54  <Terkhen> good morning
08:24:29  <andythenorth> morning
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08:57:20  <roboboy> good evening
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09:33:01  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r18957 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Doc: Documenting the scroll_x, scroll_y, and subscroll variables of SmallMapWindow.
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09:55:10  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r18958 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Merge smallmap remap functions.
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10:08:51  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r18959 /trunk/src/sprite.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Allow layering of multiple groundsprites in spritelayouts of stations, houses and industrytiles; so hacks with zero-sized bounding boxes are no longer needed and no longer cause trouble.
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10:28:50  <Luukland> Guys, in 0.7.5, selling road that is on an edge costs more money then actually removing road on a flat ground, while railways and heliports don't, I believe when selling road on the edge, it counts the foundation again, while in other situations it doesn't, small bug :)
10:29:55  <TrueBrain>
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10:41:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r18960 /trunk/src/train.h: -Codechange: Move acceleration-related values to a separated cache.
10:42:45  <planetmaker> moin :-)
10:43:03  <planetmaker> I somehow see the rv acceleration patch approaching trunk inclusion ;-)
10:43:52  <roboboy> is there a difference between removing a rail tile and dynamiteing a rail tile apart from dynamite destroying any other rail peices on the tile?
10:44:34  <Alberth> planetmaker: 'accelerating trunk inclusion' of course :)
10:46:26  <planetmaker> hehe :-P
10:48:17  <roboboy> where does openttd store its title game?
10:48:28  <SpComb^> roboboy: data/opntitle.dat
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10:49:26  <roboboy> it seems when I ran the 1.0.0 beta 3 setup that file was not created
10:49:59  <roboboy> hm now its there
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10:55:16  <roboboy> it seems it was in program files/openttd/data
10:56:18  <Alberth> euhm, how is that not data/opntitle.dat ?
10:56:20  * roboboy wonders what is different about opentitle.dat and the ttd title.dat in terms of file format
10:56:45  * Alberth suspects there is none
10:57:15  <frosch123> one uses ttd  save format, the other uses ottd 0.3.2 or simliar format
10:58:16  <roboboy> I tried telling openttd to use the TTD one and it boohood with all water. I was hoping it might just work since OpenTTD can still load TTD savegames
10:58:34  <frosch123> actually i would expect it to just work
10:59:15  <roboboy> but I got blue sea
10:59:57  <Alberth> load it as a normal save game, so you can move around
11:00:10  <frosch123> hmm, ttd saves have different file extension
11:00:18  <frosch123> maybe that is uses to detect them
11:02:51  <frosch123> loading it with ".sv1" works fine
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11:07:44  <frosch123> ah, i see, the intro menu hides the silly tracklayout
11:08:35  <frosch123> i guess i never looked at the original titlegame ingame
11:08:51  <frosch123> how silly :p
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11:35:52  * planetmaker just uploads another proposal for the title screen.
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11:41:36  <ccfreak2k> Welp.
11:41:43  <ccfreak2k> I gave freenode the middle finger.
11:42:00  <ccfreak2k> Now it's time to see if OFTC users are as off-kilter as freenode ones are.
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11:43:24  <Eddi|zuHause> oftc is a way better place
11:46:33  <ccfreak2k> I certainly wouldn't expect to hear the opposite here.
11:47:40  <SpComb^> OFTC's way better than Quakenet :)
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11:48:29  <Eddi|zuHause> that's easy, because freenode is getting worse than quakenet :p
11:49:08  <ccfreak2k> I've always noticed freenode as weird ever since I joined a few years ago.
11:49:34  <ccfreak2k> Their "policies" were completely different from any other network.
11:49:59  <ccfreak2k> Now their network kicks instead of throttles if too many commands are set, and they refuse to change it, so fuck 'em.
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11:50:25  <ccfreak2k> Hey so what's openttd anyway
11:50:36  <SpComb^> does it matter?
11:51:01  <ccfreak2k> Command throttling?
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11:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause> <ccfreak2k> Hey so what's openttd anyway <-- maybe you should take a look at the website ;)
11:52:58  <Hirundo> Why is memory for cargo packets not zeroed? performance?
11:53:07  <ccfreak2k> Also I wish to dig the opengl patch from the grave and update it to the newest version.
11:53:26  <TinoDidriksen> Hirundo, zeroing is only important if your format is not well defined.
11:53:54  <Alberth> or your code does not comply to your format :)
11:54:16  <TinoDidriksen> Now, if the stream is compressed, zeroing can help...
11:54:29  <Hirundo> All pools automatically zero their memory, but the CP pool explicitly doesn't
11:55:46  <frosch123> likely performance
11:56:39  <frosch123> the cargopacket pool also does not free memory at once, but reuses it for the next packet
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11:58:35  <Rubidium> Hirundo: yes, performance
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12:30:28  <TrueBrain> lalala
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12:34:58  * orudge replaces TrueBrain with a CD player
12:35:13  <TrueBrain> that might be a good choice, yes, worth your money, for sure
12:36:30  <orudge> although a CD player is perhaps less good at server administration
12:36:43  <TrueBrain> depends on how good you think I am at it :p
12:36:54  <orudge> heh
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12:40:29  <ccfreak2k> A CD player can pop open and press the reset button.
12:40:41  <ccfreak2k> If that's all TrueBrain is good for, he might have some competition.
12:40:47  <orudge> heh
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12:40:59  <orudge> plus TrueBrain can't reproduce music as accuratel
12:40:59  <orudge> y
12:41:31  <TrueBrain> neither can I produce any tone that is considered nice-for-the-ear
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12:42:45  <TrueBrain> so lets ask for a donation of a cdplayer
12:42:52  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
12:43:04  <TrueBrain> then I can finally retire for real :)
12:43:26  <Ammler> :'-(
12:43:27  <orudge> I could even donate a CD player!
12:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> wait... that's all it takes to get rid of you? :p
12:43:50  <TrueBrain> why do I see 10 cd players as donation made right now? Hmm ...
12:43:59  <jonty-comp> replace him with the tape player from the IT Crowd
12:44:07  <Eddi|zuHause> haha ;)
12:44:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the "answering machine" :p
12:44:19  <jonty-comp> except substitude "IT department" for "OpenTTD" and etc.
12:44:21  * orudge tries turning jonty-comp off and on again
12:44:36  <jonty-comp> "Hello OpenTTD?  Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
12:44:52  <SpComb^> that should work
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12:46:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that reminds me, i have a few episodes left...
12:48:27  <TrueBrain> jonty-comp: that will be my new reply, tnx for the tip :)
12:48:59  * jonty-comp takes credit
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13:11:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r18961 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Simplifying and unduplicating code in smallmap.
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13:24:26  <Rubidium> hi TrueBrain :)
13:25:39  <TrueBrain> Have you tried turning it off and on again?
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13:25:56  <TrueBrain> morning glx :)
13:26:07  <Rubidium> yeah, now it gives a BSOD while booting :)
13:26:19  <TrueBrain> then you didn't install Linux, did you? :p
13:26:21  <Rubidium> well, rather a week ago :)
13:26:26  <glx> check video driver
13:27:08  <Rubidium> glx: not much can be done about the video driver in Vista's installer
13:27:21  <TrueBrain> why are you trying Vista? Sounds horrible :)
13:27:54  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: to try to get the manufacturer to fracking fix their breaking of my computer
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13:28:08  <TrueBrain> I thought the last MB fixed it?
13:28:12  <glx> can't you try a win7 instead ?
13:28:30  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: yes, id did, that's why I said "well, rather a week ago"
13:28:47  <Rubidium> glx: don't have a win7 CD, do have the vista CD that came with the laptop
13:28:50  <TrueBrain> ah ;)
13:28:52  <TrueBrain> I was scared :p
13:29:02  <TrueBrain> so you are back developing? :p
13:29:03  <glx> no win7 in msdnaa?
13:29:18  <Rubidium> glx: probably
13:29:44  <Rubidium> but the point is... downloading the several GB file takes more than 1 hour, computer goes into thermal protection after 1 hour of idling
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13:30:00  <glx> wasn't that fixed already ?
13:30:01  <Rubidium> s/goes/went/
13:30:06  <glx> ha :)
13:30:14  <Rubidium> glx: yes, it did, that's why I said "well, rather a week ago"
13:30:44  <glx> yup, the "goes" made me think it was doing it again ;)
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13:31:13  <glx> anyway vista is known to miss a lot of drivers
13:31:23  <Rubidium> though yesterday I first installed vista so I'd still get "support" from the manufacturer
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13:31:48  <Rubidium> glx: that's an understatement... I was happy it could detect that there was a CPU in the system
13:32:22  <oskari89> I tried win 7 just yesterday.. Not really much different from vista.
13:32:23  <glx> not a big problem if it can at least find an ethernet driver (so you can find the missing ones online)
13:32:41  <oskari89> Except faster and lighter than Vista.
13:33:36  <glx> I have only 1 problem with win7, some games kill aero (disable and not restore when they exit)
13:34:31  <Zuu> I didn't like transparent windows in Vista so I disabled it.
13:34:46  <glx> I like aero peek
13:34:54  * Rubidium is amazed how much more you can have with 50% of the HDD space usage of Vista
13:35:40  <Rubidium> including most drivers out-of-the-box
13:36:06  <planetmaker> :-D
13:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> how much does windows take nowadays? i always reserve around 10-15GB for my / partition
13:37:09  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: vista install said it needed about 17.8 GB
13:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause> never ran out before...
13:37:26  <glx> I remember myself compiling kernel to have sound with suse 7.0
13:37:28  <Rubidium> ofcourse, that includes a 3 GB swap and 3 GB hibernation file
13:37:49  <Rubidium> currently my system uses, I reckon, about 3-4 GB
13:38:40  <Eddi|zuHause> /dev/sda1              13G  5,6G  6,2G  48% / <-- a fairly fresh install with most of my every-day usage
13:38:53  <glx> there's an improvement with win7: 32bit and 64bit are in the same box :)
13:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> except windows games
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13:39:39  <PeterT> morning all
13:40:27  <Rubidium> hmm, self-compiled debug-grade gcc takes quite a bit of space
13:40:39  <Rubidium> ~900 MiB in /usr/local
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13:42:18  <Rubidium> but yes, less than half of what you need for Vista, but including 3 different version of gcc, text editors, version control, office tools, mail, (la)tex
13:42:33  <Rubidium> so yeah, Windows has become quite bloated
13:42:53  <Rubidium> a 100 MiB download for a videocard driver, like... what's the point?
13:43:01  <Rubidium> especially if it isn't a 'one-for-all' driver
13:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the linux ati drivers are the same size...
13:43:31  <glx> for nvidia it's one-for-all :)
13:43:31  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure about nvidia
13:44:08  <glx> (149MB)
13:44:52  <glx> but it comes with PhysX (and my GPU doesn't support it)
13:45:11  <fonsinchen> alberth, you seem to have understood, what that subscroll variable in smallmap does ...
13:45:46  <fonsinchen> could you explain it to me?
13:47:12  <Alberth> sure
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13:47:32  <fonsinchen> I mean, I have removed it in my patches and I don't see the difference. What am I missing?
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13:48:11  <Alberth> scroll_x and scroll_y refer to a base-tile at the top-left of the smallmap
13:49:18  <Alberth> in smallmap coords, that tile is a 4pixels long, at the left of the top-left of the smallmap display.
13:50:02  <Alberth> the distance between the right-hand side of those 4 pixels and the (0, 0) coordinate (ie the top-left pixel), is subscroll
13:50:53  <fonsinchen> Why isn't that 0 by definition?
13:51:36  <fonsinchen> And what kind of glitch should I be seeing?
13:51:37  <Alberth> I think you use scroll_x/y not only as tile coordinate, but the 4 bits inside a tile also.
13:52:20  <fonsinchen> I have to check that ...
13:52:23  <Alberth> If you drag the map 1 pixel horizontally, the subscroll changes, not the base tile (unless you cross a tile boundary of course)
13:53:20  <Alberth> I am heavily thinking about dividing scrollx/y by 16, as those bits are not used, and it saves a lot of shifting while rendering
13:55:52  <Alberth>  with subscroll 0  and  with subscroll 3
13:56:38  <Alberth> red 4 pixels is the base-tile
13:57:58  <Alberth> I have also tried to implement my own CenterPos computation by doing this tile counting in reverse, but that didn't work :(
13:58:42  <fonsinchen> OK, I don't quite get it yet. I have to look at my own code again.
13:58:49  <Alberth> fonsinchen: note the "& ~0xF0" in CenterPos that you removed
13:59:29  <roboboy> gnight
13:59:33  <fonsinchen> What is the old name of CenterPos?
13:59:34  <Alberth> gnight roboboy
14:00:12  <fonsinchen> Ah, there it is
14:00:13  <Eddi|zuHause> why all that magic with a "subscroll" if you can just use normal tile coordinates and different scroll steps?
14:00:14  <Alberth> SmallMapCenterOnCurrentPos
14:00:30  <fonsinchen> I didn't know what it did, so I removed it and it still worked.
14:01:10  <Alberth> I suspect your scroll_x/y use the lower 4 bits.
14:01:28  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: "scroll steps" ?
14:01:32  <fonsinchen> I always though of scroll_x/y to be coordinates on the main viewport
14:01:40  <fonsinchen> not tile coordinates, but absolute ones
14:01:50  <fonsinchen> maybe I'm wrong, though
14:02:25  <Alberth> euhm, maybe my wording was wrong. scroll_x/y are in world coordinates, but always multiples of TILE_SIZE.
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14:03:11  <fonsinchen> Why is that?
14:03:51  <Alberth> no idea, it seems not optimal, simple tile coordinates would be better for performance
14:03:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i mean when tiles are 4 times as wide as they are high, scrolling 1 pixel in x direction is 4 steps and in y direction is 16 steps, or somethng
14:04:23  <fonsinchen> I mean, why not just use the absolute coordinates and forget about the multiple of TILE_SIZE
14:04:30  <fonsinchen> I think that's what I'm doing
14:04:39  <Alberth> like Eddi|zuHause says
14:04:47  <Alberth> yes, that seems to make sense
14:06:10  <Alberth> perhaps the subscroll was added later after they found scrolling to be non-smooth.
14:06:40  <Alberth> eg in SmallMapCenterOnCurrentPos   it is also not set, although you'd expect that.
14:06:48  <fonsinchen> The tiles are not really 4 times as wide as they are high. There is this trick with drawing alternating columns
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14:07:56  <Alberth> in world coordinates tiles are TILE_SIZE by TILE_SIZE aren't they?   That gets distorted by the perspective
14:08:37  <fonsinchen> Yes I know, but the ratio is less drastic. maybe 1:2
14:09:05  <fonsinchen> Even though we draw 4 pixels in a row for each tile
14:09:07  <planetmaker> quite exactly actually
14:09:19  <planetmaker> width=64, height=32 pixels for ground tiles
14:09:40  <Alberth> ah, that you mean.  we should render 4x2 pixels instead :)
14:10:03  <fonsinchen> No, that was just in reply to Eddi|zuHause. I don't know what he was up to.
14:12:15  <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> in world coordinates tiles are TILE_SIZE by TILE_SIZE aren't they?   That gets distorted by the perspective <- yes, but it's not that simple, as there is an axis transformation involved
14:12:16  * Alberth wonders whether this difference in ratio is the cause of my reverse tile counting problems
14:12:53  <fonsinchen> "Reverse Tile counting"? What's that?
14:13:50  <fonsinchen> You mean determining the coordinates on the smallmap from main viewport  coordinates?
14:14:04  <Alberth> yes
14:14:09  <fonsinchen> That didn't work for me until I got rid of that subscroll
14:14:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the transformation is fairly simple: TILE_SIZE in (map-)x direction is 1 pixel in (screen-)y direction and -2 pixels in x direction
14:14:43  <Eddi|zuHause> TILE_SIZE in (map-)y direction is 1 pixel in (screen-)y direction and +2 pixels in x direction
14:15:03  <Alberth> you have a pixel and a world coordinate, then count back to where scroll_x/y is at the left of the top-left pixel.
14:15:32  <Alberth> the result should be scroll_x/y + subscroll.   Unfortunately, it never was :(
14:15:44  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I have seen RemapCoords() :)
14:17:22  <fonsinchen> So leaving out subscroll gives you a slight inaccuracy of less than one main viewport tile.
14:17:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so the reverse transformation is: 1 pixel in (screen-)x direction is -TILE_SIZE/4 in (map)-x direction and +TILE_SIZE/4 in y-direction
14:18:26  <Alberth> yep
14:19:00  <Alberth> fonsinchen: if you don't use scroll_x to store those bits, yes
14:19:11  <Eddi|zuHause> 1 pixel in (screen-)y direction is +TILE_SIZE/2 in both (map-)x and y directions
14:19:31  <fonsinchen> For most of the things you want to draw you either have a tileindex or completely free world coordinates
14:19:42  <Eddi|zuHause> or without the /2?
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14:20:16  <Alberth> with, I think
14:20:27  <fonsinchen> If you align your map not by tiles but by unrestricted world coordinates you don't have to worry about things being aligned to tiles
14:20:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a linear transformation, anyway
14:21:25  <Alberth> fonsinchen: not true, since you draw 4 pixels of a tile at one go.
14:23:23  <fonsinchen> OK, it seems I implicitly round down all coordinates to tile boundaries
14:24:54  <rait> any reason why latest nightly would not successfully load a game?
14:25:24  <planetmaker> yes.
14:25:38  <rait> already fixed problem?
14:25:51  <planetmaker> Just reading the commit log: I bet so
14:26:25  <rait> okay, skipping that bugreport ...
14:26:26  <planetmaker>  (edit)    	  @18952   	  [18952]   	17 hours  	yexo  	 -Fix (r18950): loading recent (=newer then title game) savegames failed
14:27:06  <planetmaker>
14:28:01  <rait> i actually have a svn client, don't know why i asked before checking svn log
14:28:35  <Alberth> why didn't you build a current trunk version and tried using that instead?
14:29:57  <rait> haven't got my build setup working yet
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14:31:45  <fonsinchen> So, subscroll is completely determined by scroll_x and scroll_y, right?
14:32:26  <fonsinchen> I think what I do is shift the things I draw with DrawSmallmapStuff so that subscroll is 0 for all others.
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14:35:05  <fonsinchen> This means actually my solution should be a little jumpy on a scale of 2 to 4 pixels. This may be a problem with small screens.
14:37:50  <fonsinchen> Yes, it can only scroll in units of 4 pixels horizontally or 2 pixels vertically.
14:39:09  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I like your suggestion, will try that.
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14:54:18  <stalwart10> is there a way to set the current view of the map from the openttd console?
14:54:45  <TrueBrain> scrollto?
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15:00:14  <stalwart10> Nicccce
15:00:18  <stalwart10> thanks
15:00:26  <stalwart10> and how can I query it?
15:00:47  <stalwart10> I mean the current position
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15:08:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't seen a command for that
15:09:20  <TrueBrain> using the Questionmark (the red on)
15:09:26  <TrueBrain> clicking on a tile gives the coordinates
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15:29:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r18962 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18958, r18961): Code-style, use this explicitly.
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15:47:55  <dragonhorseboy> anyone know why they decided that 'build while paused' has to be considered an actual cheat? just wondering about it
15:49:39  <frosch123> cheats are just singleplayer settings, there is nothing bad with them
15:50:12  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: because _you_ can continue to build while an AI cannot.
15:50:21  <dragonhorseboy> well it seem a bit silly that your whole game has to be considered cheated all just because you wanted to be able to resignal a junction without trains crashing everywhere
15:50:43  <planetmaker> oh... re-signaling can be done w/o pause mode.
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15:50:46  <Coco-Banana-Man> you could just stop your trains
15:50:50  <planetmaker> Either pay attention or stop your trains
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15:50:59  <frosch123> or build a track around
15:51:00  <dragonhorseboy> coco...there's 200+ to stop just only 4% of them?
15:51:16  <dragonhorseboy> do you build tracks around when that'll mean maligned 90 corners multiply times
15:51:23  <dragonhorseboy> you know..some junctions are large for a reason
15:51:33  <Coco-Banana-Man> just stop one on each entrace of that junction ;)
15:51:43  <dragonhorseboy> coco...and which one likewise?
15:51:54  <dragonhorseboy> sometimes I wonder if thats why noone bother rebuilding junctions thanks to signal
15:51:59  <frosch123> dragonhorseboy: really, is your biggest problem that it says "oh , he cheated!"
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15:52:49  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: honestly. stopping a train on each incoming track to block it is not difficult, is it?
15:53:02  <planetmaker> or remove one tile from the incoming tracks. same effect
15:53:29  <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker...its going crash anyway .. and if the junction had pbs that makes it ever more crashy .. because you know.. trains always never check that what they reserved is not actually there
15:53:41  <planetmaker> and money you loose meanwhile due to trains queuing... no problem in this game either. Or you do it wrong [TM]
15:54:01  <dragonhorseboy> (I've had several trains just deciding to ignore the first red signal because they didn't see anything blocking what they assumingly reserved)
15:54:04  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: they don't crash... unless you do it... wrong ;-)
15:54:11  <TrueBrain> dragonhorseboy: it is an art to redesign a busy hub while it is operational .. also the beauty of this game :)
15:54:24  <planetmaker> ^^^
15:54:31  <dragonhorseboy> real life trains don't scream by trackside-close signallers at 120km/h
15:54:34  <planetmaker> most enjoyable of things in OpenTTD indeed
15:54:47  <dragonhorseboy> neverminding the vacuum turbulences
15:54:55  <TrueBrain> I loved doing that in coop :)
15:55:06  <planetmaker> you still could do it there :-)
15:55:15  <TrueBrain> haven't played OpenTTD in months
15:55:16  <Alberth> dragonhorseboy: so if we do more real-life, it would be more cumbersome
15:55:26  <TrueBrain> I did start it last week, but that was just to test something for Rubidium :p
15:55:37  <dragonhorseboy> this is why I consider patch=actual play and ottd=only for MP alone
15:55:42  <dragonhorseboy> ^_^
15:55:57  <dragonhorseboy> (beside the pause button's unuseable in MP as well anyway)
15:56:10  <dragonhorseboy> alberth how you mean?
15:56:18  <planetmaker> of course it is. Who are you to pause the game for all, if you're not admin?
15:56:34  <planetmaker> if you are the server, you CAN pause it
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15:57:39  <Alberth> well, in RL, they would shut down the junction completely to protect the workers, or build a pass-by, ie things you don't want to do since they are too much trouble.    How is that an argument for pause in build?
15:57:45  <planetmaker> it  simply doesn't work in the wild that every player can act as server admin.
15:58:08  <planetmaker> Alberth: the by-pass solution works pretty well in OpenTTD :-)
15:58:18  <Alberth> planetmaker: I know, and I love it :)
15:58:21  <dragonhorseboy> alberth try build diagonal bridges in ottd and come back saying you were *able* even build one for a bypass
15:58:25  <planetmaker> So... that piece of realism is actually what I usually employ when re-building hubs
15:58:52  <dragonhorseboy> seriously the limited grid pattern of either game makes it useless for certain alignments
15:59:08  <planetmaker> oh, we've come to the general slash-out now?
15:59:24  <planetmaker> to the "it all sucks dick"?
15:59:26  <jonty-comp> wait a minute
15:59:32  <TrueBrain> you can always find a missing feature in any game. Instead of complaining about it, try to be creative with the things you can do. That shows you are a master of the game. Not noticing something is lacking (in your opinion) :)
15:59:35  <jonty-comp> why would you need to build diagonal bridges for a junction?
15:59:40  <jonty-comp> surely your junction isn't in the sea
15:59:50  <jonty-comp> or in the middle of a town
16:00:03  <dragonhorseboy> jonty-comp its becuase the whole junction was built at straight align so a bypass track would have to become a diagonal bridge to even be able to bypass it at all
16:00:10  <Alberth> and even if it is, just build a bigger passing by
16:00:20  <dragonhorseboy> (unless you wanted induce at least 4 90 degree corners to fit)
16:00:37  <Alberth> what's the problem with that? it is TEMPORARY
16:00:53  <jonty-comp> anyway, what TrueBrain said
16:01:32  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: yeah, that 'real life' game misses undo and saving state and loading old states
16:01:36  <planetmaker> also: be a bit more creative than thinking in only straight tracks and by-passes, dragonhorseboy
16:01:36  <dragonhorseboy> alberth...80km/h for 16+ tiles and causing lot of bangups compared to running smooth at 167km/h nonpulsed
16:01:58  <jonty-comp> note the 'temporary' aspect of this
16:01:59  <TrueBrain> dragonhorseboy: again, the keyword is TEMPORARY
16:02:02  <dragonhorseboy> (and yes longer trains do take a very long time to snake 90 corners)
16:02:03  <TrueBrain> work faster if it bothers you
16:02:04  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: also: how do you think construction sites influence the trains in RL?
16:02:12  <jonty-comp> surely you have to do something to clear out the junction before you buildwhilepaused anyway
16:02:37  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: nah, here they just run with 130 kmh passed workers, not a problem :p
16:02:42  <dragonhorseboy> truebrain work faster = introduce multiply mouse cursors support then
16:02:52  <TrueBrain> dragonhorseboy: feel free to submit a patch for it
16:02:54  <dragonhorseboy> jonty..not really
16:02:56  <planetmaker> use keyboard short cuts
16:03:14  <planetmaker> pretty fast actually
16:03:15  <TrueBrain> I would like to see a user use multiple mouses ...
16:03:18  <TrueBrain> can't picture it :)
16:03:32  <jonty-comp> and if the junction is already empty, then it's probably not busy enough to warrant all this fuss anyway :P
16:03:36  <planetmaker> mutliple mice, one cursor. Hillarity ensues.
16:03:40  <dragonhorseboy> in patch I just simple pause .. bulldoze all signals (and any old joins if needed) and plop new ones in then check for any darkened rails still left and make sure these doesn't intersect into another one..then unpause. done
16:03:46  <Rubidium> just write squirrel byte code with your keyboard and let that be executed
16:03:47  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: that I did do :) Lots of times :) To annoy users ;)
16:03:54  <planetmaker> :-P
16:03:56  <jonty-comp> oh, I see
16:04:00  <jonty-comp> you don't actually change the track
16:04:01  <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker..there's no keyboard shortcut to place items :)
16:04:08  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: so.. what's the problem with using the build-in-pause mode In OpenTTD?
16:04:09  <dragonhorseboy> only select menu items usually
16:04:18  <TrueBrain> then I wonder what I have been using all those years ....
16:04:27  <TrueBrain> there are no shortcuts to palce stuff .. shit .... how did I do that ...
16:04:34  * TrueBrain goes back in history to check
16:05:03  * jonty-comp follows TrueBrain with a power drill
16:05:10  <TrueBrain> NOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo
16:05:12  <TrueBrain> not the power drill!
16:05:21  <planetmaker> the hydraulic hammer?
16:05:29  <TrueBrain> wait: Have you tried turning it off and on again?
16:05:37  <jonty-comp> now if you don't mind, I have an episode of the Simpsons to watch, which is in HD for some reason
16:05:43  <TrueBrain> enjoy :)
16:05:50  <jonty-comp> perhaps I will!
16:05:51  <planetmaker> ^
16:05:56  <TrueBrain> I hope you do
16:06:00  <TrueBrain> else it is a waste of your time
16:06:07  <jonty-comp> most things are
16:06:11  <jonty-comp> yet I still do them :D
16:06:12  <TrueBrain> true
16:06:19  <TrueBrain> breathing being in the top 10 for me
16:06:21  * jonty-comp takes his power drill elsewhere
16:06:24  <TrueBrain> complete waste of my time
16:06:41  <dragonhorseboy> lol truebrain you do know that you need oxygen to live anyway :P
16:06:42  *** Rubix`` [] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds]
16:06:45  * dragonhorseboy hehs
16:06:56  <TrueBrain> I need sleep too; still a complete waste of time
16:07:04  <Rubidium> there's a simple way to reduce wasted time
16:07:05  <dragonhorseboy> then why are you living?
16:07:16  <planetmaker> to waste your time. Just for the spite
16:07:27  <TrueBrain> why are we here?
16:07:28  <Rubidium> ... just stop procreating
16:07:37  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: but I like the attempts to procreate too much
16:08:30  <Rubidium> although I wonder why procreate and procrastinate look so similar
16:08:44  *** Rubix`` [] has joined #openttd
16:08:48  <TrueBrain> because they both start with 'pro' and end with 'ate'?
16:09:56  <Rubidium> yeah, that must be it
16:10:10  <Sacro> prostitate?
16:10:40  <peter1138> proportionate
16:11:04  <Rubidium> of even because they both start woth procr
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16:15:58  <Zuu> TrueBrain: The answer for what you have been using all years: a compiler and a text editor to code OpenTTD instead of trying to play it? :-)
16:16:12  <TrueBrain> OWH SHIT! That have I been doing wrong :'(
16:16:14  <TrueBrain> I feel stupid now
16:16:37  * dragonhorseboy hehs
16:16:53  * dragonhorseboy is actually trying to work on some quick nfo coding :S
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16:19:09  <dragonhorseboy> at least thankful for helpful softwares + the nfo wiki on :)
16:19:30  <TrueBrain> thin ice .. thin ice ...
16:19:46  <dragonhorseboy> ?
16:20:09  <TrueBrain> owh, since you joined you are doing nothing else then bashing against OpenTTD, and promoting TTDp. I have nothing against TTDp, but there are limits to what is considered social behavoir
16:20:10  <Zuu> TrueBrain: To comfort you I was able to press the "Add comment" button instead of "attach .." button on FlySpray two times in a row today. :-p
16:20:12  <Alberth> dragonhorseboy: you seem to better use #ttdpatch
16:20:19  <TrueBrain> Zuu: concratz ;)
16:20:26  <dragonhorseboy> alberth..then what about the IS games? :p
16:20:54  <Zuu> I'm probably already preparing to get drunk tonight :-p
16:21:08  <TrueBrain> hmmm .. getting drunk tonight ... now there is a very good idea ...
16:21:43  <Zuu> There is a big kravall (overall party = party where you were your overall) in town tonight.
16:22:47  <dragonhorseboy> alberth and don't forget that several major pages on the ottd wiki actually points to finding it on instead for some reason (and the basecostmod is a ottd-only grf yet it ends up on anyone?)
16:23:08  <TrueBrain> Zuu: oeh, can I join? :)
16:23:20  <dragonhorseboy> have fun zuu
16:23:23  <dragonhorseboy> brb
16:24:32  <Zuu> TrueBrain: I think you could enter there as a guest. But aren't you in the centeral Europe?
16:24:37  <Aali> Zuu: vilken kulör pryder er ouveralle?
16:24:44  <TrueBrain> Netherlands, to be exact
16:25:06  <Zuu> Aali: deep blue
16:25:17  <Zuu> With yellow and black stripes
16:26:27  <Zuu> marine blue*
16:27:32  <Zuu> And yours Aal?
16:27:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r18963 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Give AccelerationModel a generical name.
16:27:52  <Zuu> Aali?*
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16:30:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r18964 /trunk/src/ (48 files in 3 dirs): -Change: Highlight the selected action for town authority, and do not duplicate the itemtext to the description.
16:30:24  <dragonhorseboy> hey yexo
16:31:49  <Aali> Zuu: råsa
16:32:29  <Aali> #F280A1
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16:39:20  <glx> Aali: utf8 please
16:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: what do you actually have to do with long fish that can cause electric shocks?
16:45:23  <Aali> glx: eat my ass please :)
16:45:32  <Aali> Eddi|zuHause: your hovercraft is full of eels?
16:45:54  * TrueBrain gets the popcorn
16:46:13  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
16:46:13  *** Aali was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [hmm no]
16:46:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Aali: yes, those... they're ... damn
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16:47:07  <dragonhorseboy> :)
16:48:15  *** mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
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17:42:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r18965 /trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp: -Fix (r17846): Don't compare horizontal positions with vertical.
17:43:35  <TrueBrain> tsss, why not?
17:44:54  *** Yexo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:47:16  <frosch123> ask your girlfriend
17:47:31  <TrueBrain> touche :)
17:47:42  <frosch123> :)
17:48:35  <planetmaker> lol
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18:02:58  <Zuu> Mhe, my overall needs some sewing threatment :-s
18:05:23  <Zuu> Mostly because I'm out of glue :-p
18:05:37  <TrueBrain> I can make so many funny remarks now ...
18:05:44  <TrueBrain> instead, I will just sit silently
18:08:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you forgot "have you tried turning it off and on again" :p
18:08:41  <Eddi|zuHause> (especially the spell-checker :p)
18:09:05  <planetmaker> :-P
18:10:56  <Zuu> Please enlighten me.
18:12:27  <planetmaker> Zuu, I had to read it twice. It's probably treatment instead of threatment. But... those sentences taken out of context can be easily understood for much more joy when put into other contexts ;-)
18:12:53  <TrueBrain> sewing .. glue .. oh yeah!
18:14:17  <Zuu> yea, should be treatment there.
18:14:36  <Zuu> Or maybe just some 'care'. :-)
18:14:48  <planetmaker> he :-)
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18:15:39  <Zuu> The glue of the stripes on one side has loosened on a stretch of 20-25 cm.
18:16:06  *** TMS [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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18:16:50  * andythenorth wonders if the FIRS cement plant should produce goods instead of Engineering Supplies
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18:34:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: possibly both?
18:35:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r18966 /trunk/src/ (46 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Remove Window::OnDoubleClick() in favour of a parameter for OnClick().
18:35:43  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I've resolved on goods.  It's a bit weird delivering 'cement' to a quarry for example (as Engineering Supplies).  Goods goes to towns.  It's cleaner and easier for the player :)
18:36:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it makes sense
18:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought "engineering supplies" is more heavy machinery and the like
18:36:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes.  Also fuel, and (in an easter egg)....explosives!  :D
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18:39:06  <glx> just use fertilizer and fuel :)
18:40:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand fuel...
18:40:55  <planetmaker> fertilizer in order to make towns grow or double industry output?
18:41:13  <TrueBrain> people tend to breed better when giving fertilizer
18:41:15  <andythenorth> glx: I did think of that....
18:41:45  <andythenorth> glx: another easter egg: deliver fertiliser and fuel together, and the industry explodes!
18:41:58  <andythenorth> oh, we probably just got listed by echelon!
18:42:11  <TrueBrain> lets post it on twitter!
18:42:29  <Eddi|zuHause> who cares if we blow up america
18:42:36  <Prof_Frink> Americans?
18:42:38  <Eddi|zuHause> for allah!
18:42:40  <Eoin> America!
18:42:44  <andythenorth> umm
18:42:51  <andythenorth> it was all going so nicely
18:42:57  <Prof_Frink> Canadians might complain if bits of America landed on them
18:43:16  <Eoin> Just wait till the wind changes direction
18:43:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r18967 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18966): Never trust your copy&paste skills.
18:43:45  <planetmaker> lol
18:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> canada is funny, it's like a semipermeable membrane
18:44:08  <Eddi|zuHause> all the good stuff from canada gets into USA, but all the bad stuff from USA does not get into canada :p
18:45:13  <Zuu> Like that the Canadians are better at using the SI units?
18:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r18968 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 5 changes by Tvel
18:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by ReisRyos
18:45:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
18:46:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
18:46:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
18:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i watched the beginning of lost a few days ago, and noticed how people like jack and sawyer go in miles and people like sayid go in kilometers
18:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i almost understand a few parts of the "techno-babble" in the music thread ;)
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19:06:04  <peter1138> sounds bad with the slow strings
19:06:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually listened to anything
19:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i started now two video conversions, but now they are both using 150% CPU
19:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so apparently it's trying to keep one CPU free
19:17:06  <TrueBrain> LOL! Watching a serie ... they have 'The Key' which bypasses any firewall / password on the Internet, because of a fundamental flaw in the Internet
19:17:08  <TrueBrain> hahahahahaha
19:19:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the fundamental flaw in the internet is called "governments"
19:20:40  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i have a feeling that i'm missing an episode of dollhouse
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19:48:14  <TrueBrain> LOL! Now the computer on the plane "got confused" and "shut down" ... LOL!
19:48:20  <TrueBrain> this serie sucks (fact-wise)
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19:48:54  <glx> what's its name?
19:49:18  <TrueBrain> Human Target, S01E02
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19:51:38  <SpComb^> are there any sensible SNMP -> RRD collectors, apart from MRTG (which has its own limitations..)
19:52:04  <SpComb^> there's cacti, but... PHP... MySQL..
19:52:24  <TrueBrain> Cacti is the most used, but it sucks like hell
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19:58:32  <SpComb^> seems collectd does have a sensible SNMP module after all
19:58:36  <SpComb^>
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19:59:40  <nicfer> hi
20:00:05  <nicfer> one question, how do I install git on debian?
20:00:56  <TrueBrain> apt-get install git-core
20:00:57  <TrueBrain> I believe
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20:01:10  <TrueBrain> 'git' itself is some random other packet
20:01:11  <TrueBrain> package
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20:04:44  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: yeah, that episode is far far from being anywhere near realistic
20:06:46  <frosch123> pick a random series, rb knows it
20:07:06  <TrueBrain> Dutch boredom: download every serie you can
20:07:09  <TrueBrain> Dutch law: it is legal
20:08:37  <glx> then what was the problem with pirate bay ?
20:08:48  <Rubidium> providing the downloads is illegal
20:08:51  <TrueBrain> BREIN trying to be funny
20:08:52  <glx> ha
20:09:27  <TrueBrain> but I can access tpb freely, so .... dunno
20:10:02  <frosch123> maybe you find some country, where only downloading is illegal, and providing is not :)
20:11:31  <octo_> SpComb^: If you need help or have feedback, let me know ;)
20:11:38  *** octo_ is now known as octo
20:11:59  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: probably because they sued the wrong people :)
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20:17:03  <TrueBrain> "Feeding the cat" - Puts on gasmask
20:22:56  <Terkhen> here in Spain you have to pay canon for each storage device (including DVDs, digital cameras and the like), for recording devices (such as a DVD recorder or even a printer) and I think they are trying to impose it for network devices too
20:23:47  <Rubidium> Terkhen: happens here too
20:23:48  <TrueBrain> we only have to do for CDs, DVDs, .. lucky the request to do it on MP3 players and stuff was denied
20:24:01  <glx> we have a tax for every storage device
20:24:11  <glx> including HDD
20:24:29  <TrueBrain> so every country is fucked .. nice to know :)
20:25:08  <glx> that's why our ISP provides TV box with a 40GB only HDD (in reality it's a 80GB ;) )
20:25:09  <Rubidium> anyhow, I'd suggest for Brein to extend to paper too. 10 euro per square meter... lets see how much spam is going to be reduced
20:25:21  <Rubidium> and how much the government is going to screw itself
20:25:25  <frosch123> i guess there is no duty on transfering hdd from de to fr
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20:25:49  <glx> only if uncaught I think
20:26:09  <glx> same for recordable DVD
20:26:10  <Terkhen> your equivalent of RIAA also buys theaters and palaces with the canon money? :)
20:26:53  <glx> theorically it's given to SACEM which then redirect to artists
20:27:24  <Terkhen> that's how it works in theory here too
20:27:31  <frosch123> what part is theoretically? the "given" or the "redirect"?
20:27:46  <glx> I'd say both ;)
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20:28:01  <glx> only major artists get something usually
20:28:06  <TrueBrain> here a magizine has nice proof both are theoretical :)
20:28:12  <Rubidium> glx: yeah, and I guess *ONLY* when the amount for the artist passes a certain amount and *ONLY* when they can agree on some division among artists
20:28:27  <Terkhen> that's how it happens here too :)
20:28:28  <glx> something like that
20:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> LOL! Now the computer on the plane "got confused" and "shut down" ... LOL! <-- there was a real incident on some airplane presentation where the crew shut down the computer because it wouldn't allow a maneuver [who the fuck even allowed that??]. of course the plane subsequently crashed during that maneuver
20:29:11  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: still something different. Here they made a move which made the computer crash, and hang the whole plane :p
20:29:55  <glx> only one computer in this plane?
20:30:06  <TrueBrain> and clearly no auto-reboot (which they all have :p)
20:30:09  <Rubidium> yeah... and then they downloaded the OS for the 'computer in the plane' in mid air
20:30:13  <TrueBrain> even computers in the car can reboot N times per second ;)
20:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> (we had these incidents on a lecture of software engineering)
20:30:33  <Eddi|zuHause> (as in: "first lesson: how to not do it!") :p
20:30:36  <Rubidium> and ofcourse it ran on a laptop
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20:30:43  <glx> ariane 5 first launch is a nice one too
20:30:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that one was in there as well
20:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> even in-depth, because it's a good example of error management
20:31:13  <Rubidium> and the computer was conveniently placed where the nose wheel is
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20:31:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and some stock market in milano
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20:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> where they used "always round down" instead of a balanced method
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20:39:03  * andythenorth wonders: could 'Fuel Oil' and 'Chemicals' be combined to 'Petro-chemicals' ??
20:40:17  <valhallasw> no.
20:40:29  <valhallasw> of course, you could change the names
20:40:50  <TrueBrain> 'Dark' and 'Angel' can be combined to 'Dark Angel'! :)
20:40:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^^ you usually have an opinion
20:40:56  <TrueBrain> Hmmmm ... Jessica Alba ..... hmmmm ....
20:41:23  <valhallasw> however, fuel oil is not a petrochemical and not all chemicals are petrochemicals
20:43:34  <valhallasw> however, while they are three completely different things, computers generally do not care if you want to combine apples and pears under the banana name.
20:43:56  <glx> you just need a cast :)
20:44:27  <andythenorth> valhallasw: thank you, a very exacting answer :)  but not quite what I was looking for
20:44:33  <valhallasw> glx, you just made my day :D
20:44:34  <Rubidium> apples, peers, bananas, OpenTTD got all :)
20:45:10  <valhallasw> so, andythenorth, what /are/ you looking for?
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20:45:27  <andythenorth> I am deciding whether to eliminate cargos from the FIRS set
20:45:27  <glx> I can run apple in pear
20:45:38  <TrueBrain> I can run PEAR on an Apple
20:45:56  <glx> but why?
20:46:30  <valhallasw> yes. I think my answer addressed that issue
20:46:46  <valhallasw> you could do that, but petrochemicals are a nonsensical names to describe fuel oil + chemicals
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20:47:21  <glx> but it can be the output of an industry accepting chemicals and fuel oil
20:48:05  <valhallasw> so the industry casts a (chemical, fuel oil) tuple to petrochemicals
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20:51:11  * andythenorth thinks that Fuel Oil and Chemicals will stay separate for now
20:51:33  <valhallasw> andythenorth: what about 'petroleum products'
20:51:38  <valhallasw> too long, probably? :)
20:51:46  <valhallasw> but in the case of FIRS, fairly accurate
20:51:56  <frosch123> some day there will be an industry set representing organic chemistry, where you can produce ethanol from ethan and something i forgot
20:53:06  <frosch123> and if you deilver the wrong cargo, they just close down :p
20:53:09  <valhallasw> :D
20:53:32  <SpComb^> octo: on collectd?
20:53:50  <octo> SpComb^: *nod*
20:54:08  <TrueBrain> SpComb^: I guess he wanted to point out he is in some way involved in that development :p
20:54:21  <SpComb^> seems so, I found his name on the contact page :)
20:54:26  <SpComb^> octo: well... the SNMP plugin lacks some features that MRTG has...
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20:55:21  <SpComb^> octo: mostly, selecting specific IF-MIB::*.$foo counters to poll based on the values in IF-MIB::ifName.$foo
20:55:59  <SpComb^> octo: in other words, only polling the counters for interfaces with specific names... and those interface names are also a host-specific property, so it would be very cumbersome to specify those in the <Data> block
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20:57:21  <TrueBrain> on that I agree SpComb^ ...
20:57:55  <SpComb^> just polling all of the counters with Data::Instance works quite well, and the output .rrd files have the ifName in them, but one doesn't always want to get all the values in a table
20:58:00  <octo> SpComb^: Yeah, that's been requested a couple of times, but so far nobody stepped up to implement it
20:58:49  <SpComb^> it seems there's a little conflict between a) running collected on both hosts with the network plugin b) running collectd on one host and snmpd on another host
20:58:53  <octo> SpComb^: It's possible to query all interfaces and then filter out the ones you don't want, but that's not acceptable for large routers or some embedded hardware
20:59:23  <SpComb^> or Xen dom0 with dozens of domU's...
20:59:30  <SpComb^> (each domU having several if's)
20:59:46  <octo> Those you shouldn't query with SNMP ...
20:59:59  <SpComb^> -> 131 .rrd's
21:00:04  <TrueBrain> are there easy ways to monitor bandwidth of a domU?
21:00:19  <TrueBrain> (without required software running inside the domU)
21:00:28  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: use vifname=vif-hostname-whatever in the vif=[] statements
21:00:43  <octo> TrueBrain:
21:00:49  <SpComb^> so then the interfaces get nice names instead of vifX.Y
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21:01:09  <TrueBrain> octo: now that is useful :)
21:01:24  <octo> TrueBrain: Indeed :)
21:02:08  <SpComb^> the plugin config seems a bit simplistic
21:02:53  <TrueBrain> I guess I need to remove Cacti from our network and roll out collectd? :)
21:03:17  <SpComb^> also: Include statements inside of <Plugin> blocks
21:03:27  <SpComb^> TrueBrain: collectd doesn't do the graph output
21:04:04  <TrueBrain> it is not like Cacti does that in any way that I would consider acceptable
21:04:19  <TrueBrain> how often it fucked up a graphical output ........
21:04:37  <TrueBrain> currently it has a big sign on it: DO NOT TOUCH -- IT IS WORKING NOW
21:04:52  <SpComb^> then roll your own rrdtool scripts :P
21:04:59  <octo> SpComb^: Enabling the "Include" keyword within blocks would create inconsistencies and break some plugins..
21:05:04  * SpComb^ wrote some python to make nice smokeping-inspired rrdtool graphs
21:05:16  <TrueBrain> well, the stats collecting shit already is custom made ...
21:05:19  <octo> SpComb^: But you can have multiple <Plugin /> blocks for one plugin if you want to split the config
21:05:22  <TrueBrain> even our own protocol
21:05:33  <TrueBrain> (because Cacti fucked up SNMP reads when trying to read 15+ hosts)
21:05:46  <SpComb^> then what *do* you use Cacti for? :P
21:07:04  <TrueBrain> the most fun I always have with Cacti when a system goes into a reboot (for what ever reason), even if it is only a VPS
21:07:14  <TrueBrain> it immediatly tells me the system is doing 100 mbit/s, for at least 10 minutes
21:07:25  <TrueBrain> try to explain to a customer why his usage was 10 fold of normal ...
21:07:54  <TrueBrain> or try updating Cacti without losing data
21:08:04  <TrueBrain> owh, I am going to stop ranting against Cacti now ... don't use it, my tip of the day
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21:10:31  <SpComb^> octo: I'll have to take a look at the snmp.c code some time... but I think for now I'll stick to MRTG for the traffic stuff
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21:12:39  <octo> SpComb^: Sure ;)
21:13:15  <TrueBrain> I am going to focus my frustration on my lovely MMO to-be :p
21:14:21  <Noldo> what?
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21:21:43  <TrueBrain> what what? :p
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21:23:38  <Rubidium> kilowhat
21:23:46  <TrueBrain> watt is joule per second?
21:25:00  <Noldo> wtf / line
21:25:01  <Rubidium> yeah, watt? :)
21:25:18  <Noldo> TrueBrain: what kind of MMO?
21:25:32  <TrueBrain> Noldo: owh, a Dune2 spinoff
21:25:51  <TrueBrain> I wanted to do a TTD, but it means rewriting OpenTTD, which is no fun
21:26:25  <Noldo> TrueBrain: is it all in your head or do you have something writen down?
21:26:34  <TrueBrain> we are writing things down slowly
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21:33:58  <Noldo> how are you going to make it massive?
21:34:51  <Rubidium> 1TiB download of unneeded crap?
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21:35:53  <TrueBrain> Noldo: by allowing a lot of players to battle each other :) That much was obvious I hope :)
21:37:57  <peter1138> MMOTTD?
21:38:14  <Noldo> TrueBrain: yes
21:38:16  <TrueBrain> I have drafts for that :) But you need to pull out the client from the server ... that is never going to happen
21:39:28  <Noldo> is it going to be series of normal dune fights tied together with something else or a big dune world
21:39:40  <TrueBrain> one big dune world :)
21:39:44  <TrueBrain> let me show you the drafts ...
21:41:52  <TrueBrain> I had to read them over to make sure it was 'up-to-date' :p
21:42:16  <TrueBrain> <- not much yet, but we are trying to get there :) (while working on OpenDUNE and the technical implements of this MMO)
21:42:44  <Noldo> what is a good reading order?
21:43:12  <TrueBrain> first_draft.txt gives the general idea .. the rest are the same in more detail
21:43:19  <TrueBrain> order is not important after that
21:45:02  <SpComb^> <-- crunch crunch crunch
21:45:29  <TrueBrain> many interfaces :p
21:46:05  <SpComb^> thankfully the script generates all of the .html and .png files for each .rrd every time you update anything
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21:49:28  <Noldo> TrueBrain: done
21:49:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18969 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h rail.h rail_cmd.cpp): -Add: [NewGRF] NewGRF-settable rail type properties.
21:50:27  <Rubidium> is that what everyone else thinks it is?
21:50:44  <Rubidium> the "catenary over third rail"-patch?
21:51:04  <Eddi|zuHause> lack of "-Feature" ;)
21:52:36  <TrueBrain> Noldo: any suggestions / ideas you might have, are very welcome (via PM that is)
21:52:43  <peter1138> could've been a codechange
21:52:49  <peter1138> it's just properties, no graphics yet
21:53:07  <peter1138> although yes, it does include the flag for catenary... i'd totally forgotten about that, hehe
21:54:14  <SpComb^> octo: so what rrdtool web frontend do you recommend for use with collectd?
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21:54:45  <glx> Noldo: and feel free to test the current opendune version :)
21:55:44  <octo> SpComb^: Personally I'm using the bundeled "collection3" script
21:56:03  <octo> SpComb^: Visage is pretty popular these days:
21:56:25  <octo> SpComb^: collectw looks kinds promising:
21:58:11  <SpComb^> drraw is ... all the AJAX/JSON things are ... I just want something with properly customizeable HTML/CSS output,
21:59:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18970 /trunk/ (docs/landscape_grid.html src/rail_type.h): -Codechange: Increase number of possible rail types to 16.
22:00:38  <frosch123> pff, everyone could have changed that constant :p
22:00:51  <peter1138> go on then
22:01:46  <frosch123> hehe, obviously there will be someone who wants "more" :)
22:02:05  <glx> as always
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22:04:26  <stalwart10> Why can't be there 2^31-1 rail types?
22:04:53  <peter1138> because i personally decided you can only have 16
22:04:56  <Rubidium> why limit it to 2^31-1?
22:04:57  <peter1138> because i'm mean :D
22:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i already explained why 16 might become limited quite soon...
22:05:20  <frosch123> we need extra zoom to distinguish more railtypes
22:05:52  <stalwart10> 2^31 fits nicely into a signed 32 bit word :-)
22:05:55  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, it is relatively easy to change to more. you just add another byte to the map array...
22:06:11  <peter1138> NewMapArray!
22:06:14  <stalwart10> but we could consider that 64 bit systems are taking over
22:06:24  <peter1138> (2^64)-1 railtypes?
22:06:31  <stalwart10> yees
22:06:36  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: as if that is "easy" to argue past a majority of the devs :p
22:07:22  <frosch123> wasn't it richk who said, he would just make all of m1..m7 uint32s :)
22:07:22  <stalwart10> you could allocate some ipv6 address range for openttd rail types as well :-)
22:07:59  <Rubidium> why not doubles? 1.797e308
22:10:46  <frosch123> we do not duplicate code
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22:11:47  <peter1138> de-de-duplicate
22:12:07  <frosch123> reduplicate?
22:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i should say something, but can't come up with anything intelligible :p
22:13:22  <frosch123> should fit well then
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22:44:07  <andythenorth> would BEER be an appropriate cargo?
22:45:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: MB tried that, but later decided it'd make more sense as a subcargo: Food (Beer)
22:45:26  <andythenorth> that's what I concluded about a year ago.  just thought I'd double check!
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22:54:07  <TrueBrain> lalaal
22:55:29  * andythenorth : has simplified FIRS cargo chains a little more and reduced the industry count a little more :)
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23:33:55  <Eddi|zuHause> damn...
23:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i turn around to go to my bed
23:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and what do i see?
23:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> two cats...
23:35:09  <roboboy> byebye
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