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03:57:21 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@c122-108-245-233.kelvn3.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625231939]] 04:35:40 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe34dc00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 04:56:04 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75985.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:56:23 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B772EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:56:21 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 06:12:36 <planetmaker> Moodles: yes and no. 06:12:59 <planetmaker> you can manually use different fonts and their sizes in the cfg 06:13:06 <planetmaker> you can't change the size of the sprites 06:23:15 *** andythenorth [~andytheno@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 06:37:00 *** ^Spike^ [~spike@d200003.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 07:07:25 <Terkhen> good morning 07:07:26 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@93.21.11.171] has joined #openttd 07:19:49 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:30:50 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-86fae253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 07:37:03 *** b_jonas [~x@dsl4E5C0850.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd 07:41:01 <__ln__> 10:40 o'clock and already 26 degrees celsius... 07:41:24 <Moodles> planetmaker: its the top left i need bigger, that menu 07:43:46 <planetmaker> Draw bigger icons 07:43:58 <planetmaker> Then there's a chance to create a bigger menu 07:44:14 <planetmaker> are you ready to work for it? 07:44:39 <b_jonas> I don't want a bigger menu, because I want better keyboard shortcuts instead 07:44:56 <planetmaker> b_jonas: then try the nightlies. Freely configurable 07:45:04 <b_jonas> oh, great 07:47:16 <planetmaker> first thing I did was install a shortcut for autoroad, too :-) 07:55:09 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:00:32 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@93.21.11.171] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 08:02:59 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:08:08 *** fjb [~frank@p5485B952.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:10:30 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host20-232-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 08:11:30 <Wolf01> HELO 08:11:36 <Wolf01> USER Wolf01 08:11:40 <Wolf01> PASSWD mine 08:13:15 * SpComb reconfigures Wolf01's SMTP client 08:13:21 <SpComb> connecting to the wrong port 08:13:28 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5bc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 08:13:31 <Wolf01> :D 08:13:36 <Wolf01> hello frosch123 08:13:43 <frosch123> morning wolf 08:18:47 * Zuu does not have a thermometer but enjoys some morning hours when it at least is colder outside than inside so you can keep the window open. 08:21:19 <Wolf01> those from the 6:00am and 9:00am? here is already a hell... 08:23:22 <planetmaker> I wish, I wish 08:23:49 <planetmaker> I've no problem with the temp. and shorts and T-Shirt at 3am... which indicates it's WAY too warm in the night ;-) 08:23:55 <planetmaker> moin also :-) 08:25:57 <Wolf01> 26°C tonight, and 400000% humidity 08:26:07 <planetmaker> :-) 08:26:47 <planetmaker> well. Now it's 30°C and 65% humidity here 08:26:53 <planetmaker> at frigging 10:30h... 08:32:23 *** duckblaster [~duckblast@202-65-53-107.xdsl.net.oyster.net.ck] has joined #openttd 08:33:14 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D935F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:37:21 * Rubidium is still wondering whether he should be happy for last night's thunderstorms 08:38:24 <Rubidium> missing trains due to severely limited speeds, massive delays with the train (45m), ... so late in E'de that I had to walk home (or pay a lot for a taxi) 08:39:51 <planetmaker> he 08:39:58 * planetmaker still hopes for the thunderstorm today 08:40:17 <Rubidium> and then the thunderstorm reaching this place only around 02:30 08:40:31 <planetmaker> though the bicycle ride home yesterday night was quite nice 08:42:59 * Zuu dreams of a fan, but starting the desktop computer just to being able to use its PCU to power some fans is probably not a good idea as it would produce a lot of heat. 08:50:00 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:50:03 <b_jonas> stupid trains, stop whining about being lost when I'm fixing your track, or I'll get annoyed and _really_ make you get lost 08:50:31 <valhallasw> then switch off the lost nags 08:50:57 <Zuu> Or either build a bypass while you are reconstructing or use build in pause cheat. 08:51:37 <b_jonas> valhallasw: they're not in a separate category in the message settings 08:52:36 <b_jonas> it's in "Advice / information on company's vehicles" I think 08:53:00 <b_jonas> ah, I see, there's an advanced options 08:53:07 <b_jonas> for "Warn if train is lost" 08:53:07 <b_jonas> thanks 08:58:53 <valhallasw> np 08:59:16 <valhallasw> although I had no idea where the switch was, either :-) 09:01:55 *** Samu [~Samu@a81-84-19-173.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #openttd 09:01:58 <Samu> hi 09:02:18 <Alberth> hai 09:02:35 <Samu> may i return to the forum? I decided to come back 09:02:44 <Zuu> Why not? 09:03:04 <Samu> what must I do then? 09:03:20 <Zuu> Log in to your account? 09:03:31 <Samu> invalid password 09:03:32 <Samu> and 09:03:44 <Samu> account manually disabled by admin 09:03:52 <Zuu> As far as you know your user name you should probably be able to get the password as an email. 09:04:11 <Zuu> Do you know of any reason why the admin might have disabled it? 09:04:19 <Samu> yes, it was my request 09:04:33 <Zuu> Then you have to ask the admin to re-enable it I think. 09:04:45 <Samu> I sent an email to hyronymus 09:04:50 <Samu> :) 09:05:08 <Zuu> Then just sit and wait. :-) 09:05:24 <Samu> it's a much pacific forum 09:05:45 <Samu> I am also posting on the battle.net forums 09:05:50 <Samu> I came from there 09:06:06 <Zuu> It's actually more european than pacific. 09:06:23 <Samu> I mean peaceful 09:06:26 <Samu> pacifie 09:07:11 <Zuu> ok 09:07:23 <Moodles> is there any frontend's for editing the openttd config file? 09:07:30 <Alberth> openttd 09:07:49 <Samu> does anyone here play war3? 09:07:54 <Zuu> <random text editor with highlighting> 09:08:11 <Samu> I saw rubidium name in a 4v4 replay on azeroth 09:08:15 <Samu> wondering if it's him 09:08:42 <Zuu> I usually don't play and if I do then it is mostly OpenTTD. :-) 09:09:14 <planetmaker> [11:07] <Samu> does anyone here play war3? <-- you are in the wrong IRC channel. Clearly 09:09:28 <Samu> it was because of rubidium 09:10:43 <Samu> hmm talking about replays... openttd replays? 09:11:41 <Terkhen> no 09:11:58 <Zuu> There has been some work on series of semi-gaint screenshots taken every month or so. 09:12:00 <Alberth> you could save all autosave files :) 09:12:25 <Samu> heh, not exactly the same thing 09:12:29 <Zuu> Using some video tool the screenshots can then be turned into a video file. 09:12:33 <Terkhen> save the initial map and log all commands 09:12:48 <Rubidium> Samu: why would I? I already pay enough taxes so others can play war 09:12:51 <Samu> yes I think that's how replays work 09:13:09 <Samu> hi rubidium 09:13:24 <Samu> I thought you played warcraft 3 :) 09:13:27 <Rubidium> Terkhen: that sounds a lot like... desync debugging (or on other words: it's already implemented) 09:13:30 *** [hta]specx [~opera@ip94-126-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 09:15:08 <Samu> how much kb/s to run a server for 100 years? 09:15:57 <Samu> erm, I mean what is the total 09:16:20 <Zuu> IIRC there is some kind of estimate in the wiki 09:16:54 <Zuu> possible on the multiplayer article or an article linked from it. 09:19:32 <planetmaker> 2kb /s + map download 09:19:36 <planetmaker> per client 09:20:10 <planetmaker> 24 clients used 55kbit on our server 09:21:33 <Samu> i found it 09:21:54 <Samu> how many seconds does a year last? 09:21:58 <Samu> i can calculate 09:22:17 <Samu> hmm 09:22:24 <Samu> a 24/7 server costs 60gb/s 09:22:28 <Samu> with 10 players 09:22:45 <b_jonas> Samu: 60 GB/s ? 09:22:50 <b_jonas> you mean 60 GB/month? 09:23:09 <Samu> per month ya 09:23:11 <Samu> lol 09:25:04 <Samu> do you know how long does 1 year take in openttd? 09:27:01 <planetmaker> yes 09:27:11 *** Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-201-235-230.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:27:30 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c272.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:27:37 <planetmaker> [11:21] <Samu> how many seconds does a year last? <-- approx. Pi * 10**7 09:28:03 <Samu> can't find it in the wiki 09:29:14 <Samu> ah game mechanics 09:30:35 <Samu> hmm nope, i can't find it 09:31:13 <frosch123> @calc 365*74*0.03 09:31:13 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 810.3 09:31:27 <frosch123> how often do we answer that question? 09:32:00 <Rubidium> from Game Mechanics wiki page: "If in the game's time a day is 2.36 seconds" 09:32:18 <frosch123> @calc 74*0.03 09:32:18 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2.22 09:32:49 <frosch123> @calc 2.36/74 09:32:50 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 0.0318918918919 09:33:27 <Samu> ah, thanks 09:34:07 <Alberth> now please add a link to that info at the wiki where you were looking 09:35:02 <Samu> http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics 09:35:12 <Samu> i found it, it's slightly hidden 09:35:23 <Samu> must read all to find it 09:35:23 <Alberth> obviously too hidden 09:36:00 *** KouDy [~KouDy@rb5ck203.net.upc.cz] has joined #openttd 09:36:31 <Rubidium> ah well... just try a "proper" encyclopedia first :) 09:37:25 <Samu> 2.36*365*1.2 09:37:46 <Alberth> Rubidium: so many words..... 09:38:30 <Samu> 1033 kb for a 100 year replay, I think 09:38:53 <Samu> must be wrong 09:39:14 <Samu> ah wait 09:39:16 <Samu> for 1 year! 09:39:23 <Samu> so for 100 years is 09:39:26 <Samu> 103MB 09:39:27 <Samu> lol 09:39:58 <Samu> then it can be compressed 09:40:12 <Samu> not sure how the server handles data 09:40:23 <Samu> does it send it compressed between users? 09:40:46 * Rubidium wonders whether Samu has any idea how compression works 09:40:56 <Samu> i don't know 09:41:24 <Rubidium> every compared digital television to analog and wondered by analog can switch within milliseconds and digital takes seconds 09:41:35 <Rubidium> and why analog arrives earlier than digital? 09:41:44 <Spoons> Because it's badly implemented! Zing. 09:42:22 <Rubidium> Spoons: basically yes... it *needs* to know what's coming in the next second or so to do proper compression 09:42:33 <Rubidium> which causes a lag of a second 09:42:48 <Samu> ah, nice :) 09:42:48 <Rubidium> the same will happen when you're adding compression to OpenTTD's commands 09:42:48 *** Spoons is now known as FauxFaux 09:43:06 <Rubidium> and then you'll have the lag both ways... 09:43:27 <FauxFaux> You could just use a hilariously tiny window. Although, knowing you madmen, all the commands are bitpacked to hell anyway. 09:43:34 <Samu> I'm confused now, does it compress it or not? 09:44:12 <Zuu> Not the commads that are sent Client <-> Server as I read Rubidium. However the save games are usually compressed. 09:44:31 <Samu> yes, that's what I was asking :) 09:44:42 <Samu> ok, thank you 09:45:04 <Rubidium> Zuu: but it sends the compressed savegames without compressing that data stream 09:45:12 <Zuu> If you want to make a replay patch you can probably compress the logged commands as there is no problem to keep a few seconds of data in a buffert in that case. 09:45:34 <Samu> I understand now, it makes sense to me too 09:45:50 * Rubidium already made a replay patch... and if you tell your OS to compress the output file everything will just be fine 09:46:41 <Samu> an example, 1 game of warcraft 3 takes about 1 Megabyte total on my consumes 09:46:56 <Samu> but when I load that game replay 09:47:00 <Samu> it's about 150 kb 09:47:06 <Zuu> And even if you leave out compression (even at OS-level) having a 100 MB file floating around that is then compressed when the game has ended is not that bad either. 09:50:11 <frosch123> it gets bigger if you add key frames which contain a whole savegame 09:52:41 <Samu> Warcraft 3 replays don't log the map, but Starcraft do 09:53:00 <Samu> That's maybe part of the reason we can see replays online in Starcraft 09:53:39 <Samu> if you don't have the original map when you load a war3 replay, it doesn't work :( 09:53:48 <Samu> well, openttd with replays would be cool 09:55:59 <Samu> I have a question about ntfs 09:56:16 <Alberth> is that a new train? 09:56:33 <Samu> microsoft says compressed hard discs with the ntfs run faster 09:56:41 <Samu> ew... :( 09:56:58 <frosch123> maybe decompression is faster than reading from the disc 09:57:19 <Alberth> given todays CPUs I would not be surprised 09:57:25 <Samu> was wondering if some really fast compressing method could be impremented 09:57:33 <Samu> for openttd servers 09:57:41 <Samu> I don't know... just wondering 09:58:02 <Samu> server - client 09:58:10 <Alberth> Samu: trivial: 'copy data plainly' is very fast for compressing :) 09:58:30 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-25-5-181.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:58:39 <Alberth> server <-> client data is never stored at a disk 09:59:03 <Samu> but the goal is less bandwidth 09:59:12 <Samu> less than 1.2 kb/s 09:59:17 <planetmaker> Samu: OpenTTD uses VERY little bandwidth 09:59:45 <planetmaker> any video stream is orders of magnitude higher 09:59:46 <Samu> I see, well I was on mobile connection a few days ago 10:00:05 <planetmaker> there's no problem with mobile connections sustaining that data rate 10:00:06 <Samu> i have 100 mb for free, but after that it's pay time 10:00:29 <planetmaker> what eats your budget is the savegame download 10:01:12 <planetmaker> For an average map of 0.5Mbyte you can play like 10:01:14 <Samu> yes, another suggestion for that, download the map only once, and keep it in the cache 10:01:15 <planetmaker> @calc 500000 * 8 / 2.2 10:01:15 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 1818181.81818 10:01:26 <planetmaker> half an hour 10:02:02 <Samu> then if the user drops from the game and reconnects, it wouldn't be needed to reload the entire game again 10:02:17 <Samu> it gets only part of what hasn't been cached 10:02:32 <SmatZ> hello people :) 10:02:41 <SmatZ> Samu: interesting idea, I wonder how much would that save 10:02:45 <Alberth> Samu: then you need to keep all commands around 10:03:08 <Samu> I think the other problem is 10:03:14 <Samu> CPU 10:03:16 <Samu> lol 10:03:18 <SmatZ> I rather meant something like keep just generation seed+other mapgen parameters 10:03:34 <SmatZ> and instead of whole map, send just difference in the map array 10:05:06 <SmatZ> storing commands is not possible, syncing would take ages 10:05:16 <Wolf01> that sounds like the "undo" feature if used reversed, you might get 2 features in one.. :D 10:05:32 <SmatZ> :) 10:05:37 *** Zahl [~Zahl@2a01:198:5c1:0:dc96:2bc9:2e72:e102] has joined #openttd 10:06:28 <Samu> hmm, what if there's a time limit the user can be out of the game? 10:06:36 <Samu> say, no longer than 10 minutes 10:06:52 <Samu> or something defined by the server 10:06:53 <SmatZ> still, syncing could take several minutes after reconnect 10:07:55 <Samu> hmm, how do mmorts games work? I never played one 10:08:43 <Samu> I just read the player can leave the game at any time and reconnect later on 10:08:54 <Samu> like a day later or so 10:08:54 <SmatZ> in those games, you only need information about near surrounding around you 10:09:00 <SmatZ> in OTTD, you need to know the whole map 10:09:47 <Samu> an AI will take control of his stuff while he's not playing 10:09:58 <Samu> it's a weird concept for me 10:10:04 <Samu> but I see 10:10:14 <Samu> so it's similar to mmorpg 10:11:34 <Samu> the issue is indeed the real-time aspect 10:11:47 <Samu> what you see is what everyone sees too 10:14:40 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1E13E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:15:14 *** Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-201-235-230.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:21 *** tdev [~udev@p57B7CEB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:16:47 *** [hta]specx [~opera@ip94-126-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:58 <Zuu> In games where the map is mostly static and you have a few units, then you can cache the map and just update the unit locations and state of them. In OpenTTD the map changes and therefore it is harder to cache the map and "just" update what has changed. 10:20:29 <Samu> 2048x2048 squares 10:20:30 <Samu> hehe 10:21:53 <Wolf01> the problem is that you need infinite caching and the server will be all the time caching the map 10:22:49 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF87C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 10:23:41 <Wolf01> gah... updating the tags of 5GB of mp3 10:23:46 <Wolf01> takes ages 10:23:46 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-25-5-181.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:24:03 <Samu> automatically? 10:24:07 <Wolf01> yeah 10:24:19 <Samu> well, sound recognition 10:24:25 <planetmaker> [12:20] <Samu> 2048x2048 squares <-- if you play maps of that size, the biggest traffic part will in all cases be the map download 10:24:39 <Samu> must send part of it 10:25:01 <Wolf01> no, I just made a compilation and I need to clear track, album, year infos... 10:25:22 <Samu> aha planetmaker, was only mentioning 10:25:33 <Samu> I prefer 256x256 maps 10:25:41 <Wolf01> order the songs by artist and then rename files "artist - songname" to uniform the names 10:25:41 <Samu> my comp(s) can't run any faster 10:26:03 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.2.191.147] has joined #openttd 10:28:41 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5F0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:30:14 *** Zahl_ [~Zahl@2a01:198:5c1:0:dc96:2bc9:2e72:e102] has joined #openttd 10:30:14 *** Zahl [~Zahl@2a01:198:5c1:0:dc96:2bc9:2e72:e102] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:30:14 *** Zahl_ is now known as Zahl 10:35:45 <Samu> I have a question 10:36:01 <Samu> oops 10:36:01 <Samu> ok 10:36:11 <Samu> is it possible to save the game 10:36:21 <Samu> at the exact moment the player drops? 10:37:15 <Samu> and also have an auto-reconnect feature? I think you know what I'm trying to get to 10:39:49 <valhallasw> technically: yes and yes 10:40:07 <valhallasw> but it won't do what I think you're trying to get to, being reconnecting-without-having-to-download-the-map 10:41:25 *** Amis [~Amis@5400C2FE.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 10:41:32 <Amis> Hello! 10:41:37 <planetmaker> it won't. Because the game on the server will have progressed already when the client detects that it dropped 10:41:40 <planetmaker> Hi Amis 10:42:59 *** Sacro [~ben@83.100.250.208] has joined #openttd 10:44:50 <Amis> (ottd 1.0.2) When I'm playing, the road/rail level crossing signals turn red only when the train is on the tile. Are there any way to make that signal behave like the one on the Main Menu screen? (It turns red when the train is 4~5 tiles away) 10:44:51 *** tdev [~udev@p57B7CEB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:45:23 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@86.92.135.101] has joined #openttd 10:45:25 <planetmaker> Amis: you need to use path signals 10:45:37 <planetmaker> then it'll work that way 10:45:44 <Amis> Oh I see 10:46:46 <Amis> Since path signals are the selected by default that means it's working perfectly? (Last time I played ottd was when they just introduced this) 10:47:02 <Alberth> ? 10:47:17 <Amis> Half year ago 10:47:22 <Amis> Or more maybe 10:47:23 <planetmaker> Amis: it always worked that way with path signals 10:47:32 <planetmaker> as long as they're present. 10:47:38 <planetmaker> And they're present for... 18 months? 10:47:46 <Alberth> crossings react on track reservations. path signals reserve the entire block, 'normal' signals only the current tile 10:47:53 <Amis> Huhh, time goes by 10:48:37 <Alberth> Amis: we had a head-start, playing with the nightlies :) 10:48:42 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-220-142-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 10:49:44 <Amis> Something else: how can I reactivate an expired vehicle? (If possible) 10:50:47 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:51:12 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20117 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Codechange: Use a Point struct to store double click position. 10:52:38 <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_gameplay#How_to_get_expired_vehicles_back.3F 10:52:50 <Alberth> freshly prepared this morning :p 10:53:03 <Amis> Thank you 10:53:04 *** Sacro is now known as Guest2698 10:53:05 *** Sacro [~ben@83.100.250.208] has joined #openttd 10:53:19 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20118 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Add: Detect if the mouse has been hovering over the same point. 10:54:08 <Amis> Weee, and it works, yay 10:54:54 <Samu> what have you guys tried to reduce bandwitdh? 10:55:22 *** JVassie [~James@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:55:28 <Samu> the major cons in OpenTTD games is indeed that loading part 10:55:30 <Rubidium> use zlib instead of lzo for savegame compression 10:56:05 <Samu> I see 10:56:09 <SpComb> less trees 10:56:11 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20119 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp viewport.cpp window_gui.h): -Add: Tooltips can be removed if the user stops hovering the mouse. 10:56:18 <Rubidium> SpComb: yeah... that one too :) 10:56:44 <SpComb> although I've never tried to difference myself 10:57:22 <Rubidium> it can be quite significant 10:57:37 * Zuu senses tooltips on hover 10:57:54 <Rubidium> oh... and we're trying not to create tiles that need 128 bytes of storage 10:58:40 <Samu> there's a game where everyone tried to connect, it was paused most of the time, it is annoying 10:58:52 <Samu> 128 bytes per tile? 10:59:07 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20120 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp window.cpp window_gui.h): -Feature [FS#3913]: Tooltips are shown by hovering the mouse over a widget instead of by right clicking on it. 10:59:31 <Rubidium> Samu: 128*4 million = huge 10:59:50 <Rubidium> although 9*4 million is still quite big, it's not as huge as the other 11:00:05 *** Guest2698 [~ben@83.100.250.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:00:21 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20121 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp window.cpp window_gui.h): -Add: OnHover method for windows. 11:00:48 <Samu> is the data plain text? 11:00:51 <Samu> for a tile? 11:00:55 <Samu> how does it work? 11:01:02 <planetmaker> of course not plain text 11:01:10 <Rubidium> it's XML! :) 11:01:15 <planetmaker> :-P 11:01:18 <Rubidium> oh noes... that' 11:01:34 <Rubidium> oh noes... that's what other people want it to be so it's more flexible 11:01:36 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20122 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: Correct vehicle list tooltips at the depot window. 11:02:13 <Samu> hmm, there may be some nice compression algorythm out there suitable for that 11:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... any chance we are approaching "On Hover" tooltips? 11:02:47 <Zuu> Yes 11:02:56 <Terkhen> should already be working :) 11:03:04 <Zuu> See r20120 11:03:25 *** Sacro is now known as Guest2700 11:03:26 *** Sacro [~ben@83.100.250.208] has joined #openttd 11:04:07 <Samu> have you tried freearc or nanozip? 11:04:20 <Samu> or 7-zip lzma 11:04:24 <Samu> ppmd 11:04:33 <Zuu> The 5 pixel movement limit might need some tweaking depending on the exact implementation. But it is hard to find something that works for everyone. For a trackball you don't need a treshold but for pen tablets I usually find most hovering thresholds too low. 11:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> lmaa? 11:05:40 <Terkhen> it could get a setting if required 11:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> (sorry... i make that lame joke every time...) 11:06:00 <Terkhen> let's see what feedback it gets 11:06:09 <Rubidium> Samu: tried lzma, but the problem is that it's already deprecated in favour of lzma2... however lzma2 hasn't had a stable release yet 11:06:50 <Samu> :) 11:07:07 <planetmaker> that sounds pretty lame. Deprecation before a successor is available 11:07:15 <Zuu> I haven't tried yet so I can't really say anything other than the very broad spectra of acceptable limit that usally exist. 11:07:30 <Samu> I tried freearc the other day to compress some stuff 11:07:38 <Samu> it surprised me 11:07:46 <Samu> it's better than both winrar and 7-zip 11:07:54 <Samu> and faster 11:08:05 <Samu> but downside is memory 11:08:29 <Samu> nanozip does even better but way too slow compressing and decompressing 11:08:32 *** duckblaster [~duckblast@202-65-53-107.xdsl.net.oyster.net.ck] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:09:07 *** Guest2700 [~ben@83.100.250.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:09:17 <Rubidium> lzma can compress OTTD savegames up to 30% better, however... at those compression levels it takes ages 11:12:13 *** Timmaexx [~Timmaexx@port-92-201-235-230.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:13:00 *** Sacro is now known as Guest2701 11:13:01 *** Sacro [~ben@83.100.250.208] has joined #openttd 11:13:46 *** Timmaexx [~Timmaexx@port-92-201-235-230.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:20 <SmatZ> http://www.maximumcompression.com/data/exe.php 11:17:04 <SmatZ> from this example, WinRK is ~15% better thannanozip 11:17:29 <SmatZ> but still, then time is important 11:18:08 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:18:18 <b_jonas> planetmaker: oh, that sounds like grub 11:19:04 <planetmaker> ? 11:19:09 <Samu> winrk isn't free 11:19:20 <Samu> freearc and nanozip are free 11:19:30 *** Guest2701 [~ben@83.100.250.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:20:01 <frosch123> AcroRd32.exe <- what is that doing in the list of compressors? 11:20:29 <planetmaker> that's the file being compressed 11:20:58 <planetmaker> e.g. the test data 11:21:12 <planetmaker> s/e.g./i.e./ 11:21:19 <frosch123> ah, so it should be labeled "uncompressed" :) 11:21:23 <planetmaker> yep 11:22:05 <planetmaker> hm, ratio in % is also the wrong description or unit 11:22:15 <SmatZ> http://www.maximumcompression.com/data/summary_mf2.php set of files, sorted by some size/time ration 11:22:17 <SmatZ> -n 11:22:51 <SmatZ> nanozip is fine there :) 11:23:23 *** dfox [~dfox@r11mg201.net.upc.cz] has joined #openttd 11:23:23 <SmatZ> ~2 times faster than 7zip with lzma 11:23:37 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 11:24:01 <planetmaker> ah... we just should apply jpeg compression. We can easily afford the loss of a few bits 11:24:08 <SmatZ> hehe :) 11:24:11 <planetmaker> It doesn't show in photos either ;-) 11:25:50 *** tycoondemon|supporter [~thok@cc64025-c.hnglo1.ov.home.nl] has quit [Quit: If I were a rich man, Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum. All day long I'd biddy biddy bum. If I were a wealthy man.] 11:27:28 <frosch123> yup, you can easily compensate that by using golden network connectors 11:28:03 <SmatZ> :D 11:28:15 <planetmaker> :-D 11:28:45 <SmatZ> I can't find nanozip's sources, so it is a no-way for OpenTTD 11:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with golden connectors is that you can only unplug them like six times... then all the gold plating is gone... 11:29:04 <Ammler> SmatZ: that table misses the time 11:29:37 <SmatZ> Ammler: http://www.maximumcompression.com/data/summary_mf3.php#data this one doesn't :) 11:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause> # Ich wollte dir 11:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> # Nur mal eben sagen 11:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> # Dass du das 11:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> # GröÃte fÃŒr mich bist 11:33:45 <VVG> hello 11:33:52 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@204-74-213-37.take2hosting.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:34:47 <Ammler> I played a lot with those tools for the GRFPack 11:35:01 <Ammler> not found anything better than 7zip 11:40:34 <Samu> I see WinXP (NTFS) in that site, lol 11:42:21 <Samu> wow.... FreeArc is ranked 2 positions lower than NTFS compression speed 11:42:34 <Samu> but nearly the double ratio 11:42:36 *** Adambean [CG1@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 11:43:27 <Samu> 39% vs 71% for just 1 second difference 11:43:54 <frosch123> i guess you can see the i/o speed in that table. quite often decompression is slower than compression 11:44:13 <Samu> what is the i/o 11:44:18 <Samu> I don't know what it means 11:44:26 <frosch123> input/output 11:44:28 <frosch123> i mean the disk 11:44:33 <frosch123> or whatever 11:45:16 <frosch123> or is my assumption wrong, that decompression should be faster than compression? 11:45:30 <Samu> it should be 11:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> from a complexity theory point of view, decompression should usually be faster 11:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> especially if you consider 99% of the accesses to be read access, optimising the decompression makes sense... 11:47:22 <frosch123> unless if involves some encryption/decryption stuff :) 11:47:42 <SmatZ> frosch123: not always :) 11:47:46 <Eddi|zuHause> encryption and compression are diametral operations... 11:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> compression should reduce redundancy, encryption should add redundancy 11:50:43 *** Fixer [~Fixer@91.202.128.79] has joined #openttd 11:50:55 <Samu> pkzip, haha, I remember using that in DOS 11:51:25 <frosch123> today it is called winzip, and is afaik still the same 11:54:05 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 11:54:11 <Samu> http://freearc.org/ 11:54:19 *** tdev [~udev@p57B7CEB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:54:20 <Samu> lots of features I have no idea what they mean 11:54:41 *** George is now known as Guest2703 11:54:51 <b_jonas> frosch123: I think it depends on what the compressor is optimized for. for source trees on mirrors, ideally the decompression should be faster, whereas for backups you rarely read, ideally the compression should be faster. 11:55:00 <b_jonas> but in practice, the decompression is almost always faster. 11:55:35 <frosch123> b_jonas: i just mean from a theoretical point of view, without considering disk speed and such 11:55:37 <b_jonas> planetmaker: "oh, that sounds like grub" is because you said "that sounds pretty lame. Deprecation before a successor is available" 11:56:48 <andythenorth> hi hi 11:56:54 <andythenorth> hi ho 11:56:59 <Alberth> hi andy 11:57:05 *** Seberoth [~seberoth@xdsl-78-34-105-27.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 11:57:19 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth 12:06:15 <andythenorth> anything happening? 12:08:26 <frosch123> siesta 12:08:26 *** Seberoth [~seberoth@xdsl-78-34-105-27.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: get satisfied! ⢠:: www.unitedservers.de ««« (Gamers.IRC) »»» gamersirc.net ::] 12:11:00 <planetmaker> I get bug reports for SwedishRails which complain about OpenTTD not working as shown in http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/snow.png and http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/snow2.png 12:11:19 <frosch123> planetmaker: you use the newgrf groundtype variable, right? 12:11:51 <planetmaker> you mean I query the terrain type? Sure 12:12:21 <frosch123> exactly, and that one is not as bright as smatz' code :) 12:12:30 <planetmaker> The issues mentioned mostly are: the wrong snow-awareness on tiles which use foundations 12:12:42 <frosch123> i started this morning on fixing that, but i am not very efficient at these temperatures 12:12:47 <planetmaker> and to a lesser extend the missing smooth transition 12:13:01 <planetmaker> hehe. These temperatures are really really bad, yeah 12:13:12 <frosch123> i am only talking about the foundation issue :) 12:13:29 <planetmaker> which is the bigger one, yes 12:13:55 <planetmaker> hm... though I'm sure SmatZY-patchy has a patch for that :-) 12:14:34 * andythenorth ponders what to do what to do 12:14:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth: snow aware forests 12:15:19 <andythenorth> probably the kind of thing Foobar likes to do 12:15:29 <andythenorth> I have to do FIRS 0.3 :| or something for HEQS I guess 12:15:47 * andythenorth faces up to FIRS 0.3 12:16:12 <andythenorth> setting cb flags correctly is always fun :) 12:16:18 <andythenorth> hmm 12:16:28 <andythenorth> seems industry debug info doesn't show enabled cbs? 12:16:41 <andythenorth> doh 12:16:47 <andythenorth> need to scroll :) 12:16:50 *** zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 12:16:51 <planetmaker> :-) 12:20:19 *** Sacro [~ben@83.100.250.208] has quit [Quit: Sacro] 12:22:40 * andythenorth ponders supplying animal food to certain farms 12:23:54 <planetmaker> "farm supplies"? 12:24:04 <andythenorth> nah, that's problematic 12:24:10 <planetmaker> how so? 12:24:19 <andythenorth> loops 12:24:32 <andythenorth> dairy farms need grain 12:25:08 <andythenorth> but if grain => farm supplies, then there's a case where grain farm can get in a self-boosting loop 12:25:16 <andythenorth> simpler to make dairy farm accept grain 12:25:21 <andythenorth> if I can be bothered... 12:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you have mixed farms, because they are self-boosting! 12:26:02 <andythenorth> :) 12:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> animal feces is good for growing crops, growing crops is good for feeding animals 12:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hence the saying "auf eigenem Mist gewachsen" 12:26:57 <planetmaker> [14:24] <andythenorth> dairy farms need grain <-- uhm... not really 12:27:15 <planetmaker> they need hay. And special animal food 12:27:23 <planetmaker> (which contains grains, but not only) 12:27:23 <andythenorth> animal food comes from the feed plant 12:27:37 <planetmaker> and silage 12:27:57 <planetmaker> and usually hay and silage is self-made. But the "power-food" is bought 12:28:02 <andythenorth> think it's easier to leave it as-is :) 12:32:11 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:61eb:6e67:e51e:7cdb] has joined #openttd 12:32:15 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:33:14 <andythenorth> meh 12:34:24 <andythenorth> Terkhen: might have some new industry closure to test soon... 12:34:49 <b_jonas> aren't towns already in such a self-boosting loop? 12:35:01 <andythenorth> b_jonas: interesting question 12:35:08 *** heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has joined #openttd 12:37:17 <Terkhen> andythenorth: no problem, will shorter/smaller tests be enough? 12:37:46 <andythenorth> Terkhen: yes, closures will show up within 5 years (or not) 12:37:53 <andythenorth> I'm just checking locally 12:37:56 <Terkhen> okay 12:38:41 <b_jonas> I've bought up one of the AIs and now I'm cleaning up after him 12:39:19 <b_jonas> I've sold all its planes and trucks, now I'll sell most of the trains and remove the train tracks, and then I'll clean up its airports and some of its roads 12:39:43 <andythenorth> frosch123: this line means I have to write my own closure code for secondary industry, yes/no? 12:39:43 <andythenorth> if (!callback_enabled && (indspec->life_type & INDUSTRYLIFE_PROCESSING)) { 12:41:54 <frosch123> yes 12:42:45 <andythenorth> meh :| 12:43:49 * andythenorth ponders closing on a random number 12:43:58 <andythenorth> for purposes of eeeeevil 12:44:16 <frosch123> why would you want to enable the change production callbacks unless for supplying your own closing code? 12:44:39 <andythenorth> to provide players with option to disable secondary closure 12:45:07 <frosch123> then use action6 to enable/disable the callback, or even just the industry behaviour :) 12:45:20 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-28-207.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:45:58 <frosch123> anyway. suggestion for secondary industries: close if not serviced in last two years, with a probability depending on the distance to the next industry of same type 12:46:02 <andythenorth> the inertia is towards me writing the code :) 12:46:19 <andythenorth> writing closure code for 19 industries requires one template 12:46:31 <andythenorth> writing action 6 for 19 industries means changing 19 templates :o 12:46:50 <frosch123> why that? 12:46:54 <planetmaker> not really. Action6 can also be templated ;-) 12:47:11 <frosch123> you do not have to put everything in one action6 12:47:15 <frosch123> err, action0 12:47:24 <andythenorth> ah good point 12:47:29 <andythenorth> one template, 19 action 0s? 12:47:50 <andythenorth> sounds like the kind of task planetmaker excels at :) 12:48:38 *** Jhs [~Jhs4@host170-89-206-1.limes.com.pl] has joined #openttd 12:48:44 <planetmaker> he 12:48:55 <planetmaker> at 32°C I don't excel at anything. 12:49:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: how serious is your plan to improve closure algorithm? 12:49:54 <andythenorth> as writing some nfo for this isn't really very hard 12:49:57 <andythenorth> just boring to test :) 12:50:15 <andythenorth> but I won't bother if you're going to provide something better in game 12:52:10 <frosch123> i want to do: 1. balance opening and closure, so that equal amounts of industries are opened as closed (especially for smooth economy that does not hold currently). 2. make random productionchanges also depend on number of industries, not only map size. 3. add advanced settings to scale the amounts of random production changes (including opening and closeure via random callback). 12:52:36 <andythenorth> 1 makes sense 12:52:36 <frosch123> nothing of that affects the monthly callback which is imo not suited at all for closure, as that is unbalanced with opening 12:53:06 * andythenorth ponders handling closure on random cb 12:53:22 <planetmaker> why not, andythenorth ? 12:53:30 <andythenorth> makes sense 12:53:33 <planetmaker> as long as it doesn't affect serviced ones 12:53:40 <andythenorth> means I don't have to handle random in the grf 12:54:11 <planetmaker> good for FIRS :-) Easier to code 12:54:14 <andythenorth> yup 12:54:27 <andythenorth> just set a simple condition that is either met or not met 12:54:44 *** Fast2_ [~Fast2@p57AF837A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 12:55:11 <andythenorth> game can handle distributing random stuff, changes by map size etc 12:55:30 * andythenorth 'confers 80+ variable structure' 12:56:12 * andythenorth looks for a 'cargo delivered' var 12:56:25 <andythenorth> looks like it will need to be handled with storage instead 13:00:20 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF87C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:00:21 *** Fast2_ is now known as Fast2 13:00:27 <andythenorth> frosch123: 2 years unserviced seems short? 13:00:49 *** Jhs [~Jhs4@host170-89-206-1.limes.com.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01:19 <frosch123> spoils those 2kx2k map players :p 13:01:28 *** Jhs [~Jhs4@host170-89-206-1.limes.com.pl] has joined #openttd 13:01:31 <frosch123> but maybe for 1800-ish play it is short 13:01:37 <frosch123> make it depend on date :) 13:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the trains are travelling 2 years, but there can be more than one train 13:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd be for 1 year no service -> treat as unserviced 13:03:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, don't make the serviced-protection too long, it just spoils your closure statistics 13:03:27 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:05:04 <andythenorth> the problem with short closure periods is that the map is empty very quickly :o 13:05:21 <frosch123> then your probability is wrong 13:05:54 <andythenorth> but if I use random production change, that problem is decreased...or can be blamed on someone else :) 13:06:00 <frosch123> you cannot control emptyness by years, you only make the map become empty later 13:07:13 <andythenorth> think I'll do what I did with Power Station: n months protected, then indicate to player that industry is at risk. But rely on random production change cb to come round and kill the industry 13:07:30 <andythenorth> should work 13:07:38 * andythenorth lunch 13:14:23 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20123 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Add [FS#3721]: Use all available space when drawing articulated road vehicles. 13:15:43 *** Vitus [~chatzilla@138.194.wms.cz] has joined #openttd 13:22:41 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@204-74-213-37.take2hosting.com] has joined #openttd 13:22:55 *** dfox [~dfox@r11mg201.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:28:16 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF837A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:36:27 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm85.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 13:41:01 *** Jhs [~Jhs4@host170-89-206-1.limes.com.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:44:17 <Wolf01> just for information, I enabled the heavy duty vehicles grf set, but how can I add more cars to them? Seem I'm able to have only the engine+the first car 13:45:19 <andythenorth> Wolf01: ? 13:46:35 <andythenorth> which vehicles? 13:46:42 <frosch123> Wolf01: some vehicle can be refitted 13:47:03 <Wolf01> I started on 1945, and I need to transport logs with the bulldozer thingies 13:47:16 <andythenorth> some bulldozers have more trailers than others 13:47:24 <andythenorth> there isn't a variable refit for those (yet) 13:48:27 <Wolf01> oh, so they are static, I must wait for a brand new vehicle if I want more cargo space? 13:48:44 <andythenorth> yes 13:48:49 <andythenorth> :) 13:48:54 <andythenorth> or buy more vehicles 13:50:45 <Alberth> if a user buys more vehicles, new ones get released faster :) 13:53:56 <andythenorth> umm...? 13:55:19 <Alberth> just idly pondering about another weird concept :) 13:56:05 * andythenorth wonders how many industry persistent storage slots exist? 13:56:07 <andythenorth> 16? 14:02:02 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF837A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 14:02:35 *** asnoehu [~thok@cc64025-c.hnglo1.ov.home.nl] has joined #openttd 14:04:43 <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ 14:05:17 <frosch123> 16 14:05:47 <andythenorth> k 14:05:50 <andythenorth> thanks 14:06:00 * andythenorth scratches head for a bit 14:07:53 *** asnoehu [~thok@cc64025-c.hnglo1.ov.home.nl] has quit [Quit: If I were a rich man, Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum. All day long I'd biddy biddy bum. If I were a wealthy man.] 14:08:13 *** asnoehu [~thok@cc64025-c.hnglo1.ov.home.nl] has joined #openttd 14:10:51 <Wolf01> [15:55:28] <Alberth> just idly pondering about another weird concept :) <- fund research like on rollercoaster? 14:11:54 <Alberth> or go bankrupt, so you won't have any vehicles left to buy :p 14:12:19 <Alberth> but kind of, indeed 14:14:24 <Wolf01> very good players with maglevs on 1975... 14:22:49 * andythenorth ponders 14:23:07 <andythenorth> how about more vehicles == *longer* to get new ones 14:23:32 <andythenorth> :P 14:27:33 * andythenorth is epiclly baffled 14:28:23 <Alberth> could be nice too, why make a new vehicle if the old one sells so well :) 14:29:08 <andythenorth> how does turning on the production change cb destroy cargo definitions 9.9 14:29:33 * andythenorth has some debugging to do :( 14:31:13 <andythenorth> and the dep check seems to be broken :o 14:36:04 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20124 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix (r20118): Don't bring windows to front by hovering over them. 14:37:08 <frosch123> Wolf01: wouldn't your distance tooltip be more useful for the minimap? 14:37:14 *** JVassie [~James@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:38:46 <Wolf01> Yes, it might be. But I never looked at the minimap code 14:39:37 <frosch123> hmm, too bad. both mouse buttons are already used in the minimap 14:39:45 <frosch123> else one could just drag a line in it or so 14:40:11 <Terkhen> ctrl + click 14:41:13 <Wolf01> I was also thinking about a "find the best route between mountains" with the A* 14:41:26 <frosch123> that's called NoAI 14:41:36 <Wolf01> for the player 14:41:57 <frosch123> oh, then it is called brain 14:42:35 <frosch123> Wolf01: isn't building the track the central point of playing OTTD? :o 14:43:24 <Wolf01> yes, but suggesting a touristic path might be a nice feature... instead of flattening a mountain to build a straight line 14:44:34 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've (again) got a template which is not seen by dep check. I've forgotten how to fix it (sorry) :o 14:45:08 * Alberth has stopped flattening mountains a long time ago already 14:45:42 <Alberth> isn't planning that path part of the fun? imho it is. 14:46:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, definitely 14:46:53 * Eddi|zuHause occasionally designed really beautiful paths 14:47:13 <andythenorth> any chance the industry debug windows could redraw more frequently? 14:47:34 <Alberth> have something moving under it :p 14:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: add an Invalidate() call at the right place 14:48:16 <Amis> I wonder if there ever been suggestions about airplanes crashing anywhere in the world not on airports only 14:48:33 * Alberth bets there have been 14:48:43 <Amis> That feature would be awesome 14:48:52 <Alberth> ow? why? 14:49:14 <Amis> That makes the game more realistic 14:49:31 <Alberth> luckily realism is not a design goal 14:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Amis: statistically, starting and landing are the most dangerous parts 14:49:47 <Alberth> how would it enhance game play 14:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Amis: it's really rare that planes simply drop from the sky mid-flight 14:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> unless they hit a mountain, or so... 14:50:11 <Amis> But happens 14:50:34 <Amis> sometimes 14:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm against it... 14:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe crash at start could be introduced 14:51:23 <Alberth> the game abstracts from such occasions 14:51:40 *** elho [elho@psycho.elho.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it's bad enough that planes break down mid-flight 14:51:49 <Alberth> (flying into mountains, I means) 14:51:54 <Amis> This could happen when for example a broken plane is going in circle around a busy airport and can't land for a long period of time 14:52:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: "mountains" are only 800m high in openttd anyway :p 14:52:29 <andythenorth> what happens if I try and store more than FFFFFFFFh in persistent storage? 14:52:44 <Eddi|zuHause> did i mention we should have more heightlevels yet? :p 14:53:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it should wrap around... 14:53:23 <Eddi|zuHause> FFFFFFFFh + 1 = 0 14:53:38 <andythenorth> is it acceptable to ship closure code that *will* break if the player plays more than 357913941 years? 14:54:13 <andythenorth> that's 357 million years... 14:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> time is limited to year 5 million 14:54:28 <andythenorth> and starting time is 0? 14:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, year 0 14:54:45 <andythenorth> suspect my code will be ok then 14:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> note that the year 5 million is repeated over and over again 14:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 365.2425*5000000 14:55:49 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1826212500 14:55:57 <Amis> What can you do in year 0? :/ 14:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Amis: depends on your newgrfs 14:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 365.2425*6000000 14:56:18 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 2191455000 14:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess 5Mio was the largest "round" number below 2^31 days 14:57:06 <Eddi|zuHause> there's quite some room there... 14:57:21 *** elho [elho@psycho.elho.net] has joined #openttd 15:04:38 * andythenorth crosses fingers and hopes for industries closing 15:06:09 <andythenorth> boom boom boom 15:06:15 <andythenorth> closures :) 15:06:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: the random change cb is scaled by map size? 15:07:18 <frosch123> currently yes 15:07:42 <frosch123> if you start 2kx2k map with a single industry, it is called twice per day for that single industry :p 15:07:57 <frosch123> resp. starting a 2kx2k map with no industries is kind of pointless 15:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: as it quickly fills itself? 15:09:54 <andythenorth> 1024x1024 map, normal industry; I'm seeing 5-6 industries close per month 15:10:06 <frosch123> yes, it funds a single industry, and then changes production at the said rate. so it closes very quickly again, or others show up :p 15:10:46 <andythenorth> I'm going to finish closure code. Distributing how random it is can be someone else's problem :) 15:10:57 <andythenorth> hmm 15:11:06 <andythenorth> closing fishing harbours is a bit sad :( 15:11:53 <andythenorth> maybe fishing harbours should 'close' but stay 15:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> accept tourists instead ;) 15:12:52 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@77.106.154.101] has joined #openttd 15:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, openttd misses an "abandoned industry" concept... 15:13:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: so drop the production to zero, print "closed" in the window, and allow reopening it after 50 years 15:14:13 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would it work? 15:14:22 <b_jonas> nah, that would just be confusing 15:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno... 15:14:35 <b_jonas> if there's an industry on the map but it doesn't actually work, just remove it 15:14:51 * andythenorth has broken the cpp somehow :( 15:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the "C PreProcessor" or "CPlusPlus"? 15:16:40 *** morph [~4e548610@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 15:16:46 <andythenorth> the former 15:16:52 <morph> Hello, I'd like to ask a question about OpenTTD title bar size 15:17:03 <morph> How can I get it as big as in this screenshot? - http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2010/07/05/coopetition-and-the-winner-is-yexo/ 15:17:20 <morph> I tried to ask the author of the screenie but he's afk. 15:18:19 <Alberth> enlarge the picture in a program such as ff ? 15:18:31 <morph> .. 15:18:56 <morph> Look at the title bar size of the ingame dialog windows 15:19:02 <morph> It's "heightened" 15:19:07 <morph> How can I do that? 15:19:32 <morph> Direct link - http://blog.openttdcoop.org/files/blog/2010/07/03-01-1995.png 15:19:42 <Alberth> oh, he is running an old opengfx version 15:20:10 <Alberth> notice the red circular icon at the right of each window 15:20:11 <Alberth> ? 15:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> morph: it's a bug 15:20:26 <Alberth> where the shade icon is with your version 15:20:27 <Eddi|zuHause> the "circled i" icon 15:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't be there 15:20:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's larger than the icon that should be there 15:20:51 <morph> Looks more like a "feature" than a "bug" to me :( 15:21:10 <morph> <-- off to suggestion forums 15:21:21 <Alberth> gui widgets scale to their contents 15:21:32 <b_jonas> morph: I'm not sure, but I heared that in the nightly version the sizes adjust to font sizes so if you change the title bar font size to higher in the config file that might help. 15:21:47 <Alberth> so if you have a larger icon, everytinh gets larger 15:22:10 <Alberth> b_jonas: also in 1.0.x 15:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause> morph: you can have a bigger font in openttd.cfg, then the title bar scales to that font 15:22:51 <morph> Ok, thanks alot :) 15:23:03 <morph> Would be nice if there was a switch in the ingame configuration :) 15:23:36 <Alberth> you can switch base graphics sets already 15:24:04 <Alberth> we just need you to draw larger graphics 15:24:25 *** tdev [~udev@p57B7CEB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: free open source vehicle simulator: http://rigsofrods.com] 15:25:05 * andythenorth ponders 15:25:28 * Alberth waves cool air to andythenorth 15:25:38 <andythenorth> it's not too hot here 15:25:49 <andythenorth> I am in Wales, famous for not-hot 15:26:08 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 15:28:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: not sure I understand FIRS parameters :) 15:28:45 <andythenorth> any chance of help? 15:34:35 *** Jhs [~Jhs4@host170-89-206-1.limes.com.pl] has joined #openttd 15:34:43 <andythenorth> if FIRS param 3 is set to 2.... 15:34:50 <andythenorth> this evaluates true 15:34:50 <andythenorth> 7F PARAM_CLOSE_SECONDARY 00 FF // check if closure parameter is set 15:34:54 <andythenorth> this doesn't 15:35:05 <andythenorth> 7F PARAM_CLOSE_SECONDARY 01 01 // check if closure parameter is set 15:35:12 <andythenorth> umm 15:35:18 <andythenorth> that's nonsense, sorry 15:40:18 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I've just pushed some FIRS closure code that *seems* to work 15:41:31 *** Fixer [~Fixer@91.202.128.79] has left #openttd [] 15:43:28 <morph> I tried changing the font size values in openttd.cfg, nothing changed ingame :/ 15:43:56 <Terkhen> andythenorth: do you only need a log for param 3 set to 2? 15:44:08 <andythenorth> initially 15:44:15 <andythenorth> :) 15:44:59 <andythenorth> closure should also happen if param 3 is 3, 6 or 7 15:50:05 <Alberth> morph: you started a new game, right? 15:50:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: what do you think of random prod. change cb not touching same industry type more than once per month? 15:50:29 <morph> Tes. 15:50:35 <morph> I mean, yes, Alberth 15:51:37 <morph> What I did was I changed the values of large_size, medium_size, small_size in openttd.cfg. 15:51:50 <morph> Yet I don't see any bigger fonts. 15:52:24 <Alberth> you also need to set a different font, as the builtin fonts have only one size 15:52:40 <morph> Oh, ok. 15:52:45 <Alberth> http://pastebin.org/389436 is what I do, you probably have to use a different font path 15:53:15 * andythenorth ponders primary industry closure 15:53:16 <Alberth> and I have an almost random font, as I use it for testing only 15:53:41 <Alberth> ie it is not necesarily nicely readable or so 15:54:08 <morph> Ok, I'll do that and inform you about progress 15:54:10 <morph> :) 15:54:52 * Alberth is afk to make and eat some food 15:56:47 <morph> Thanks, it worked, gl on your food! :) 15:57:37 *** Jhs [~Jhs4@host170-89-206-1.limes.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:58:04 <Terkhen> andythenorth: http://pastebin.com/7juA1snX <-- param 3 set to 2 16:00:03 *** JakeGrimshaw [~jake.grim@5e04ff19.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:02:28 <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you know the map size? 16:02:41 <Terkhen> 256x256 16:03:02 <andythenorth> looks about right 16:03:14 <andythenorth> there's an 18 month protection period, then it just uses the random prod. change cb 16:04:02 <andythenorth> think I'll ship that version :) 16:04:12 <andythenorth> now I have to sort out primary closure 16:08:18 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd 16:08:18 *** ctibor|spi [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:08:36 <Rubidium> why did I read primary colour? 16:10:35 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF837A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:11:40 <andythenorth> dunno 16:14:19 <andythenorth> Terkhen: could you run a test on the latest nightly with params 0 0 1? 16:14:27 <andythenorth> might need to run it for some time... 16:14:37 <Terkhen> time / size? 16:14:46 <andythenorth> size: large 16:14:55 <andythenorth> time, I don't know, I'm not sure it's working :( 16:15:01 <andythenorth> possibly 30 years or so? 16:15:04 <Terkhen> okay 16:15:07 <andythenorth> thanks 16:19:21 *** Xrufuian [~Xrufuian@pool-98-119-100-47.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 16:25:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you close on the first random callback? :o 16:25:36 <frosch123> or is there some additional probability checked? 16:26:08 <andythenorth> frosch123: for secondary...there is an 18 month protection period. Then 'boom' on first random cb 16:26:22 <frosch123> i guess that is too much :) 16:26:34 <andythenorth> too much protection? 16:26:54 <frosch123> closure of secondary as often as production change for primary 16:27:26 <andythenorth> I've learnt to not try and handle this in nfo :P 16:27:36 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822de6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:28:50 <frosch123> original industries have 50% chance of closure on random callback 16:29:12 <andythenorth> I can add that if I can work out hex random 16:29:30 <andythenorth> I have random code lying around for this 16:29:44 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@92.10.85.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:57 <frosch123> just use var18 (or 10?), mask some bits, and return the value 16:31:18 <andythenorth> masking with 02 gives me 50%? 16:31:27 <frosch123> check for 18 months, then check for (var18 and 1), and return 0 or 3 depending on that 16:31:57 <frosch123> (var18 and 1) is either 0 or 1, both with 50% chance 16:32:18 <frosch123> (var18 and 3) is either 0, 1, 2, or 3, each with 25% chance 16:32:37 <andythenorth> ok, nearly done 16:32:38 <frosch123> then you can decide whether to close on only 0, 0 and 1 or 0 and 1 and 2 16:32:52 <andythenorth> I'll try it with 50% chance 16:33:02 <andythenorth> I have this code already in primary :) 16:34:31 <andythenorth> `seems to work` 16:34:46 <andythenorth> I'm seeing 2-3 closures / month instead of 5-6 16:39:52 *** Dreamxtreme [Dreamxtrem@92.10.85.141] has joined #openttd 16:40:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: any ideas on how to handle primary closure? 16:40:13 <andythenorth> I have current code for it, works like so: 16:40:36 *** Fixer [~Fixer@91.202.128.79] has joined #openttd 16:40:46 <andythenorth> if prod multiplier <= 4, random chance of closure (masked with 3F) 16:42:05 <frosch123> monthly cb is always bad for closure 16:42:10 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-28-207.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:42:12 <frosch123> random cb is better 16:42:49 <frosch123> i guess for smooth economy i am going to do small production changes in monthly cb, and big changes/closure in random cb 16:43:14 <frosch123> but i have not tried yet :) 16:43:35 <andythenorth> for primary, I might just run random cb, returning 0D 80 16:47:29 <andythenorth> hmm 16:47:35 <andythenorth> this is fiddly 16:47:40 *** b_jonas [~x@dsl4E5C0850.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:50:44 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 16:52:14 *** morph [~4e548610@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:56:13 * andythenorth wonders what the point of power stations is? 16:56:17 <andythenorth> :P 16:57:15 <Hirundo> coal sink ? 16:57:27 <Alberth> release CO2 in the atmosphere? 16:57:47 <Eddi|zuHause> ideally, power stations should have an effect on town growth... 16:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but that code hasn't been implemented yet... 16:58:34 <Alberth> ever noticed that power stations are normally close to a harbour and not to a city? 16:59:12 * andythenorth thinks of removing power stations from FIRS 16:59:29 <Alberth> perhaps do a global counting of powered power stattions 16:59:38 <andythenorth> there's no way to know they're powered 16:59:43 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm85.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:58 <Alberth> andythenorth: it is hardly original imho 17:00:09 <Alberth> so I'd say get rid of them 17:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Introduction fails to mention that "GetShortName" needs to return exactly 4 characters 17:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you don't exactly copy-paste the example, you easily run into that trap 17:01:06 <Alberth> fix the wiki 17:01:23 <Terkhen> andythenorth: http://pastebin.com/if92ienQ <--- 2048x2048, 30 years, parameters 0 0 1 17:01:37 <Terkhen> see you tomorrow 17:01:41 <Alberth> bye 17:01:56 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:02:14 <andythenorth> Terkhen: thanks 17:02:16 <andythenorth> bye 17:04:45 * andythenorth removes power station :) 17:05:08 <Alberth> the whole country goes dark 17:05:39 *** Vitus [~chatzilla@138.194.wms.cz] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625231939]] 17:07:49 <andythenorth> frosch123: does the standard primary production change run monthly *and* random, or random only? 17:08:19 <frosch123> non-smooth economy uses only random cb 17:08:54 <frosch123> smooth economy uses only monthly, but as i said that is unbalanced for closure of primary and secondary 17:10:12 <andythenorth> I am trying to work out whether to offer players a way to use 'built in primary changes' with FIRS, by-passing the code I've written 17:10:24 <andythenorth> it adds complexity :P 17:11:15 <andythenorth> this is already complex :( 17:11:38 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20125 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: 17:11:38 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Change: [NewGRF] If a tile has a snow-flag in the map array, use that for 17:11:38 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: Terrain Type variables, instead of always only using the tile Z position. Also 17:11:38 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: use the maximum Z of a tile for tiles which usually have levelling foundations 17:11:38 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: (stations, houses, industries, unmovables). 17:12:01 *** KouDy [~KouDy@rb5ck203.net.upc.cz] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The alternative IRC client] 17:12:06 *** KouDy [~KouDy@rb5ck203.net.upc.cz] has joined #openttd 17:12:10 *** JVassie [~James@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so what about road foundations? 17:12:33 <frosch123> they have a snow-flag 17:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but last time, a different calculation than rail-foundations 17:12:58 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-235-120.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 17:13:17 <frosch123> i did not change that 17:13:24 <frosch123> nor am i going to :) 17:13:26 <andythenorth> hmmm.....frosch123: so for primary I am using random cb to handle closure. Does that mean industries won't close on smooth economy setting?? 17:13:52 <andythenorth> sorry, all the economy stuff is baffling :o 17:14:18 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has joined #openttd 17:14:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: smooth economy setting does not affect newgrf industries 17:14:27 <andythenorth> fine fine 17:14:38 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has joined #openttd 17:28:33 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20126 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Fix [FS#3883]: Make railtype Terrain Type variable aware of RAIL_GROUND_HALF_SNOW. That is, resolve the sprites for upper and lower part of the foundation independently. 17:31:57 *** Samu [~Samu@a81-84-19-173.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 17:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting... 17:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause> now we also need half-rivers and half-canals 17:36:35 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822de6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: bis dann] 17:36:45 <Rubidium> and half-ignores? 17:38:40 <andythenorth> /me wonders why primary production would increase when he's written code to prevent such a thing :P 17:39:09 <andythenorth> it's *not* due to month lenght 17:39:36 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20127 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#3929]: Replace 'invalid engine' with 'vehicle model'. 17:40:25 <frosch123> well, remove an "invalid", or add one. just as you like 17:45:50 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20128 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) 17:45:50 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:50 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 57 changes by kokobongo 17:45:50 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: croatian - 5 changes by VoyagerOne 17:45:50 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: finnish - 9 changes by jpx_ 17:45:52 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by glx 17:45:52 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: german - 9 changes by planetmaker 17:51:15 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20129 /trunk/os/debian/ (control patches/run-openttd-wrapper.patch rules): -Add [Debian]: debug symbols package 17:51:40 * andythenorth wonders how to backport things to FIRS 0.3 17:55:04 <Ammler> hg transplant 17:55:57 <Rubidium> svn merge -c <rev>[,<rev>[,<rev>[,<rev>[..]]]] ^/trunk 17:58:18 <andythenorth> thanks 17:59:04 <Ammler> not sure, how svn merge.. will help :-) 18:01:22 *** dfox [~dfox@r11mg201.net.upc.cz] has joined #openttd 18:02:41 <Alberth> that's how you copy changesets svn style 18:03:49 *** JVassie [~James@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:05:36 *** tdev [~udev@p57B7CEB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:06:36 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@f234099.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:04 *** b_jonas [~x@dsl4E5C0850.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd 18:14:56 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 18:16:14 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF837A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 18:19:59 *** tdev [~udev@p57B7CEB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: free open source vehicle simulator: http://rigsofrods.com] 18:21:27 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:30:11 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@77.106.154.101] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:26 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@77.106.154.101] has joined #openttd 18:30:47 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:38:54 * andythenorth requests more words in Bananas :P 18:40:12 <Rubidium> use shorter words 18:43:36 <Ammler> andythenorth: release is comming... 18:45:04 *** Aali_ [~aali@h-90-31.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 18:45:04 *** Aali [~aali@h-90-31.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:21 *** lasershock [~lasershoc@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:47:26 *** tdev [~udev@p508EA05F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:48:38 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 19:00:29 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 19:14:35 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@204-74-213-37.take2hosting.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:21 *** devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@202.3.77.202] has joined #openttd 19:20:01 *** tdev [~udev@p508EA05F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:27:25 *** tdev [~udev@p508EA05F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:28:38 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-2-21-69.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 19:29:42 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-2-21-69.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:02 *** Wizzleby [~wizzleby@pool-108-2-21-69.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 19:49:49 *** Black_Phoenix [~phoenix@93.126.99.23] has joined #openttd 19:50:14 <Black_Phoenix> Hi, can I switch off industries telling me their increase/decrease in production in newspapers 19:50:22 <Zuu> Why do not socer players learn to be at least somewhat good on their "wrong" foot? 19:50:34 <Black_Phoenix> Playing on a 1024x1024 map with plenty of factories makes news never go off-screen 19:50:55 <Markk> Black_Phoenix: Press and hold the "News"-button to the right. 19:51:11 <Markk> And choose News settings (Or something in that way). 19:51:18 <Black_Phoenix> Oh yeah 19:51:24 <Black_Phoenix> I forgot that button existed 19:51:26 <Black_Phoenix> Thanks 19:51:27 <Markk> :) 19:51:33 <Markk> No problem. :) 19:52:37 <Black_Phoenix> Finnaly! Sweet silence 19:52:49 <Markk> :D 19:53:36 <Black_Phoenix> One more question, can I somehow change schedule for large groups of vehicles at once 19:53:42 <andythenorth> shared orders 19:53:47 <Black_Phoenix> How do I do that? 19:53:56 <andythenorth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Orders 19:53:57 <Alberth> read wiki :) 19:54:04 <andythenorth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Orders#Shared_orders 19:54:51 <Black_Phoenix> The button is not active 19:55:05 <Black_Phoenix> Or 19:55:07 <Black_Phoenix> nevermind 19:58:44 <Black_Phoenix> Sorted it all out :P 19:59:53 <andythenorth> brrrr 20:00:00 <andythenorth> can login to bananas, but not the ottd wiki 20:00:19 <andythenorth> silly captcha 20:00:21 <andythenorth> :) 20:00:29 <andythenorth> now resolved 20:01:24 <Black_Phoenix> one more question 20:01:37 <Black_Phoenix> do slopes and trees near runway edges affect crash probability 20:01:45 <Alberth> no need to announce you are going to ask a question :) 20:01:57 <Alberth> no 20:02:05 <Black_Phoenix> hmm 20:02:08 <Alberth> you can even fly through building, no problem 20:02:16 <planetmaker> ctrl+click with goto is your friend 20:02:27 <Black_Phoenix> I remember some website said that you could plant trees near competitor airports and planes would crash more often, but that was original TT 20:02:42 <andythenorth> some websites are often wrong :) 20:02:50 *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has joined #openttd 20:03:02 <Black_Phoenix> well it kind of worked in TT, at least it looked like if it did 20:03:14 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has joined #openttd 20:03:17 <Rubidium> they didn't crash due to trees in TTO 20:03:21 <Rubidium> nor TTD 20:03:38 <Black_Phoenix> and does plane speed divider affect income 20:03:45 <Alberth> yep 20:03:47 <Black_Phoenix> oh good 20:03:57 <Alberth> plane takes longer to travel -> less income 20:04:15 <Black_Phoenix> I mean that I set it to 1/2 instead of 1/4, and put airports twice further away from each other 20:04:21 <Black_Phoenix> hmm 20:04:26 <Black_Phoenix> actually I don't make sense 20:04:36 <Black_Phoenix> the time will not change :P 20:04:37 <Alberth> I thought so too :) 20:05:24 <Alberth> you end up with too much money anyway, so it doesn't matter much 20:06:22 <Black_Phoenix> I was interested in comparing railroad vs airplane prices for own amusement 20:09:26 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 20:09:29 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:12:34 <Black_Phoenix> another question, what does affect town grows: people that travel from town, or in town, both, or neither? 20:13:52 *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has quit [Quit: Quit] 20:14:51 <Alberth> no idea exactly, it depends on the climate at least 20:16:38 <frosch123> there is quite a long text on the wiki about city growth 20:27:08 *** Amis [~Amis@5400C2FE.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Quit: Távozom] 20:27:52 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:32:37 <ccfreak2k> Yes. 20:33:14 <ccfreak2k> In general, in-town bus service does more for growth than cross-country trains. 20:33:20 *** duckblaster [~duckblast@202-65-54-181.xdsl.net.oyster.net.ck] has joined #openttd 20:33:23 *** KouDy [~KouDy@rb5ck203.net.upc.cz] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!] 20:34:30 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 20:34:41 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20130 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3935]: Standard roadstops can also be left via manual depot orders. 20:39:50 <Black_Phoenix> ccfreak2k you're here too. what else should I find out about you 20:46:43 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:47:50 <ccfreak2k> Of course I'm here. 20:49:29 *** [hta]specx [~opera@ip94-126-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #openttd 20:51:57 *** functionofxy [~functiono@pool-68-239-229-123.nwrk.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 20:52:01 *** murr8y [~murray@45.84-49-70.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:53:32 <functionofxy> does anyone have examples of terminus station that have multiple entrances, multiple exits? I'm having a lot of trouble building a 12-bay, 5-tile station w/ 4 entrances and three exits. I can post a screenshot. 20:54:22 <frosch123> it is better if not every exit is reachable from every platform 20:54:33 <Zuu> For not too much traffic a large junction with PBS signals should be enough. 20:54:43 <planetmaker> functionofxy: http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2008/08/30/under-the-scope-path-based-signals-terminus-2-way-roro-stations/ 20:54:47 <frosch123> do not build on 12-bay, but three 4-bays, and later merge them 20:55:15 <Zuu> Add some overpasses for far left to far right if you think that is necessary. 20:56:03 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has joined #openttd 20:56:05 <functionofxy> This station has to handle 45-60 trains come off a quadruple-track mainline 20:56:21 <functionofxy> I widen the right of way to 7 tracks b/c of some long bridges right before the station 20:56:33 <functionofxy> http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5885/tuningstoneonseatranspo.png 20:59:29 <ccfreak2k> I've always found it odd that PBS signals turn green only for a split second. 20:59:57 <ccfreak2k> More "correct" behavious would cost more CPU time, though. 21:02:54 <functionofxy> did anyone take a look at my screen? I only have 28 tiles to work with, and there are a LOT of trains. 21:03:20 <planetmaker> functionofxy: then build one of the stations I linked you to. 21:03:26 <planetmaker> the lowest two 21:04:03 <Zuu> If you have a lot of trains at a steady flow you could divide the station into four sections without any load balancing. 21:05:09 <Zuu> You might want to try upstream to let some tracks switch over to the "wrong" side. 21:05:10 <functionofxy> Zuu, I don't want to do that b/c I'm worried about the loads. They will get messy, as the merges and splits to the branch lines are mostly at grade. There's no telling where the bulk of the trains might end up 21:05:36 <functionofxy> There's simply not enough room upstream to do pretty merges. 21:06:05 <functionofxy> I can post the entire map if you want 21:06:20 <frosch123> night 21:06:26 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5bc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:33 <andythenorth> good night 21:06:44 <Zuu> You have an extra tile at in sideways at the edge of the map and the maglev could be moved a bit to let you swap side of some tracks. 21:06:58 <planetmaker> functionofxy: you could for a starter make the bridges LRLRLR instead of LLLRRR 21:07:25 <Zuu> Exactly my point 21:07:31 <functionofxy> planetmaker, as I mentioned to Zuu, I have no real way of doing the crossovers. Things are too congested. I'm going to post my map. 21:07:57 <planetmaker> you need no more than two tile width for cross-overs 21:08:22 <planetmaker> and you don't have the space in front of the station 21:08:39 <Zuu> If you have the high congestion you say, then you probably have high flow at all entries and thus the need for propper load balancing with selection of all tracks is not needed. 21:08:45 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has quit [Quit: Quit] 21:08:51 <planetmaker> and you still didn't look at the stations I linked. They do what you want in 24 tiles 21:09:11 <functionofxy> I did look. 21:09:45 <functionofxy> I'm just not sure how I'm going to expand that to 10-12 bays in the pace I have. 21:09:45 <planetmaker> it fits exactly your space and station 21:09:59 <functionofxy> Perhaps I only need 8 bays. That would be nice 21:10:00 <planetmaker> just add another 4 tracks next to it. Two of those entry lanes 21:10:09 <planetmaker> it's a modular 4-station-track concept 21:10:32 <functionofxy> http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5885/tuningstoneonseatranspo.png 21:11:07 *** lasershock [~lasershoc@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 21:11:43 <planetmaker> oh, you have all the space for implementing LRLRLR before the bridges. Just don't put the depots there 21:11:49 <Zuu> The tunnel you have there before the bridges could be removed and that track could bridge over and enter in the mibddle of the reverse track. 21:13:32 <functionofxy> I'm going to try planetmaker's station, if it doesn't work, then lrlrlrlr 21:13:54 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 21:14:19 <planetmaker> functionofxy: is the maglev also yours? 21:14:26 <planetmaker> Then give yourself some breathing space. 21:14:36 <planetmaker> Move them up the 3 or 4 tiles possible 21:14:50 *** Xrufuian [~Xrufuian@pool-98-119-100-47.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.] 21:14:53 <ccfreak2k> I like how all the industries are crammed into one corner. 21:14:55 <functionofxy> and just deal with the longer bridges 21:15:26 <Zuu> Btw, which AIs do you play against? 21:15:33 <functionofxy> this a scenario done by purno 21:15:39 <functionofxy> I'm new to this... 21:16:01 <functionofxy> I just picked admiralai and pathzilla 21:16:19 <functionofxy> I introduced them late in the game so I could build the rail system for resources 21:16:27 <functionofxy> and they could take care of the annoying cities 21:17:33 <Zuu> I was just wondering as I couldn't tell from their building behaviour. 21:18:12 <functionofxy> they are really messy 21:18:20 <functionofxy> take a look at some of those inter-city roads 21:18:38 <Zuu> All my AIs are fairly easy to identify at least for me who knows what too look for. :-) 21:20:04 <Zuu> With the amounts of AIs that all wants their share of these big cities it is no surprise that it becomes a mess out of it. 21:20:26 <Black_Phoenix> Is there a place I can see information on how my trains are following schedules, all in same window? Instead of opening timetable for every train I want to see? 21:21:26 <Zuu> Not as far as I know. 21:22:29 <ccfreak2k> Black_Phoenix, no. 21:23:01 *** [hta]specx [~opera@ip94-126-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:10 <ccfreak2k> Another useful feature would be to set a series of trains that have the exact same configuration and orders/timetable to have start dates set at regular intervals. 21:23:26 <ccfreak2k> It's time consuming to calculate the start dates for a fleet of vehicles. 21:23:36 *** elho [elho@psycho.elho.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:40 *** elho [elho@psycho.elho.net] has joined #openttd 21:25:23 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-8-19.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 21:25:52 *** marioxcc [~user@200.92.184.45] has joined #openttd 21:26:31 <marioxcc> hi, i'm looking for a fully free (as in freedom) transport simulator 21:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you're free to transport any simulator 21:26:55 <marioxcc> last time i looked openttd required propietary data files from the propietary game 21:27:08 <Eddi|zuHause> there's replacement sets meanwhile 21:27:21 <Zuu> marioxcc: That's no longer the case 21:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause> if you use the windows installer, it offers to download them 21:27:30 <marioxcc> i'm at GNU/Linux 21:27:40 <Zuu> OpenGFX + OpenSFX give you graphics and sounds to play OpenTTD. 21:27:42 <Eddi|zuHause> then read the website 21:27:45 <marioxcc> ok thanks 21:27:46 <marioxcc> :) 21:28:01 <marioxcc> i used to be a simutrans fan long long ago, but i just realized it's propietary software :( 21:28:20 <Zuu> simutrans is afik open source 21:28:21 <marioxcc> so here i'm going to look at openttd, thanks 21:28:25 * Rubidium wonders how long ago marioxcc looked 21:28:39 <planetmaker> :-) sounds like looong time 21:28:41 <marioxcc> Rubidium: when i knew nothing about copyright & free software licensing 21:29:01 <marioxcc> simutrans is nethier open source nor free software, because it don't allows modification and commercial didstribution 21:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it's freeware 21:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and i think it was opensourced later 21:29:54 <Rubidium> and the sources are open, you're just not free to do whatever you want to do with it 21:30:06 <devilsadvocate> is it possible to do an incremental build on the openttd tree? 21:30:09 <Rubidium> although neither are you free to do whatever you want to do with OpenTTD's sources 21:30:21 <ccfreak2k> So it's open source but not "free software." 21:30:38 <Rubidium> devilsadvocate: depending on how you build OpenTTD... yes and no 21:30:40 <ccfreak2k> You know, like Free Tibet. 21:30:47 <marioxcc> ccfreak2k: it isn't open source 21:30:56 <devilsadvocate> Rubidium, i'm using GNU make (not VS) 21:30:58 <marioxcc> it don't allows modification, open source requires the right to modify and sell 21:31:10 <planetmaker> devilsadvocate: did you try? 21:31:35 <planetmaker> or asked differently: how do you think make works? 21:31:38 <Eddi|zuHause> marioxcc: that heavily depends on your definition on "openness" 21:31:53 <ccfreak2k> Exactly. 21:31:54 <Zuu> marioxcc: Neither do GPL allow selling of software. 21:31:57 *** elho [elho@psycho.elho.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:57 <marioxcc> it do 21:32:05 <marioxcc> you can sell GPL'ed software 21:32:16 <Zuu> You can charge for distribution 21:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i consider "open" already when you're able to view the source and do local modifications 21:32:25 <devilsadvocate> planetmaker, afaict the last time i used incremental building there was some wierdness in the configure script, hrmm.. i think i was using cmake 21:32:49 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: local modifications are (IMNSLO) fair-use 21:32:49 <devilsadvocate> yeah, it was using cmake, not make 21:32:56 *** Sacro is now known as Guest2734 21:32:56 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-8-19.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 21:33:01 <planetmaker> so nothing which the build system supports 21:33:03 <marioxcc> open source is defined in: http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php, it requires modification as well as right to sell the software 21:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: the only thing that the GPL enforces is that you may not charge fees for distributing the SOURCE above actual material value 21:33:10 <marioxcc> well, anyway i'm doing offtopic 21:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: it does not forbid selling the binaries 21:33:37 <glx> you still need to provide the source 21:33:38 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has joined #openttd 21:33:45 <ccfreak2k> X-chat does that. 21:33:49 <marioxcc> glx: it don't forbides selling 21:34:05 <glx> ccfreak2k: win32 part is not open 21:34:11 <marioxcc> you must provide the source code of course, because the GPL is a copyleft license 21:34:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you only have to give the source to people who paid for the binaries before 21:34:26 <ccfreak2k> glx, there's not a whole lot of change, other than just getting it to build and run. 21:35:05 <glx> you don't know windows API :) 21:35:15 <devilsadvocate> Eddi|zuHause, with gpl if you give/sell the binary you _have_ to give them the sources, and cant say how they can or cannot use the sources/binaries (ie, you cant give it to them under an NDA) 21:35:20 <ccfreak2k> Nope. I only know libogc, and by extension some POSIX. 21:35:35 <glx> windows is not POSIX 21:35:37 <Eddi|zuHause> devilsadvocate: so? 21:35:47 <glx> many things have to be rewritten 21:36:24 <Rubidium> marioxcc: depending on interpretation of that definition OpenTTD (GPL) isn't open source either; it DOES discrimate against people/groups wanting to use the code as their own without properly crediting and redistributing the source if/when they distribute binaries based upon the code (so it violates 5 & 6) 21:36:25 <devilsadvocate> Eddi|zuHause, so usually, 'selling' GPL code is usually not very profitable, since the first person you sell it to can legally give it away for free 21:36:49 <Eddi|zuHause> devilsadvocate: but it doesn't forbid you to try 21:36:51 <ccfreak2k> glx, I know Windows "isn't POSIX." 21:36:53 <devilsadvocate> :) 21:36:57 <devilsadvocate> yeah, it doesnt 21:36:57 *** Sacro [~ben@adsl-87-102-8-19.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [] 21:37:15 <Rubidium> devilsadvocate: appstores?!? 21:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> devilsadvocate: and, you don't have to give the source with the binary... only if they actually ask for it 21:37:16 <marioxcc> Rubidium: that's an unvalid interpretation, OSI agreees to give credit 21:37:38 <marioxcc> anyway, I dislike open source because it misses the point: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html 21:37:46 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-8-19.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 21:37:55 *** elho [elho@psycho.elho.net] has joined #openttd 21:37:57 <marioxcc> i support free software as in freedom 21:38:22 <planetmaker> freedom as to do or let do what? 21:38:38 <planetmaker> gpl is also not 'free' - by some definitions 21:39:04 <marioxcc> i use the GNU definition of free software 21:39:26 *** Guest2734 [~ben@adsl-87-102-8-19.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:39:35 <planetmaker> which in v3 is not supported by the OSI 21:39:42 <planetmaker> or at least not recommended 21:39:49 <glx> we don't use v3 21:39:55 <planetmaker> I know. 21:41:25 <planetmaker> and I'm quite happy about it 21:41:40 *** b_jonas [~x@dsl4E5C0850.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:42:06 <marioxcc> gpl 3 protects user againsting thing like tivoization 21:42:18 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.214.2] has joined #openttd 21:42:29 <marioxcc> so free software always keeps free in practice not only in theory 21:43:34 <planetmaker> the 2nd last sentence at least contains two words which I don't parse and one or more grammar errors 21:43:40 *** Sacro1 [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-42-4.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 21:43:49 <Rubidium> marioxcc: the point is... it is impossible to not "discriminate" someone when talking about "freedom". A gives a binary to B (which is a freedom of A), but if B does have the freedom to ask (require) A for the sources. In the case A should have the freedom to reject that, but then B doesn't have the freedom to require it... as such there is no "full freedom" and you'll always be "discriminating" someone 21:44:01 *** elho [elho@psycho.elho.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:19 <marioxcc> Rubidium: one thing is freedom, another is power 21:44:29 <marioxcc> if you can control what your own computer do, it's freedom 21:44:37 <marioxcc> if you can control what your client computer do, it's power 21:45:20 <ccfreak2k> Rubidium, in other words, having some freedoms requires restricting other freedoms. 21:45:29 <Rubidium> exactly 21:45:45 <marioxcc> no really 21:46:00 <marioxcc> if you can restric other right's, it's power, not freedom 21:46:06 *** Chrill [~chrischri@h-5-149.A212.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 21:46:21 <planetmaker> the freedom is always the freedom of the one thinking differently 21:46:32 <Rubidium> like "the right to remain silent" (freedom to not self incriminate); it removes the "freedom" of the justice department to torture you to get the answer/self incrimination 21:47:03 <marioxcc> Rubidium: it's a nosesnse, if justice department can torture you to get the answer is not a freedom 21:47:04 <marioxcc> is a power 21:47:15 <marioxcc> because they are acting in other's rights, not on their owns 21:47:31 <marioxcc> just as a king have the power to say people what to do 21:47:32 <ccfreak2k> But they cant, because laws restrict that freedome. 21:47:46 <marioxcc> ccfreak2k: ¿why do you say it's a freedom? 21:47:54 <ccfreak2k> Making us (the citizens) free of torture. 21:48:04 <marioxcc> from ours perspective 21:48:06 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@89.246.207.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:48:06 <marioxcc> is our freedom 21:48:14 <marioxcc> but from the perspective of the FBI, it's a power, say 21:48:32 <Zuu> Isn't it their freedome to choose method? 21:48:40 <marioxcc> no, it's their power 21:48:47 <marioxcc> because they don't act on their own 21:48:56 <marioxcc> act on someone else 21:49:32 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-8-19.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:49:55 <Zuu> Anyway if I invest 10k in making some random software, why shouldn't it be my freedome to choose how it is distributed? 21:50:20 <planetmaker> because you then exercise 'bad' power, Zuu :-P 21:50:20 <Rubidium> so... if I act on my own it would be a freedom to be judge, jury and executioner? 21:50:41 <marioxcc> Zuu: because you chose to use 10K 21:50:50 <marioxcc> not people 21:51:19 <planetmaker> marioxcc: so... what should he live on otherwise? 21:51:42 <marioxcc> by using a free license 21:51:46 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the freedom to kill other people as means to sustain him/herself! :) 21:51:48 <marioxcc> there are lots of free software licenses 21:51:51 <marioxcc> free as in freedom 21:52:08 <marioxcc> Rubidium: i think you undestand my point about freedom/power, but you just want to discuss, ¿true? 21:52:17 <planetmaker> marioxcc: but he spent money to develop it. And if it's only his time it took him. He has to get value for that investment. 21:52:27 <planetmaker> How shall he do that? By giving it away for free? Hardly... 21:52:35 <Zuu> Personally, I think it is up to each individuall author to decide what license to use and how to distribute software or anything else. If you want to promote free/open software, then contribute to that kind of software but don't complain at people who make other choises. 21:52:52 <marioxcc> planetmaker: i talk about FREEDOM not FREE price 21:53:07 <marioxcc> there is plenty of commercial free software 21:53:30 <planetmaker> marioxcc: yes. and if I write a programme, it's my freedom not to disclose source or restrict its use 21:53:41 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-8-102.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 21:53:45 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF837A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:54:05 <marioxcc> planetmaker: if you distribute it you must give the source 21:54:11 <planetmaker> no 21:54:17 <glx> depends on the chosen licence 21:54:19 <Zuu> Not if you are the original owner fo the code. 21:54:36 <Zuu> As original owner of something you may ever double license code if you want. 21:54:39 <marioxcc> planetmaker: if you can restrict other people, it's a power, not freedom 21:54:41 <planetmaker> I'm not obliged to do anything with my own intelectual property 21:54:59 <marioxcc> intelectual property is just a propaganda term 21:55:09 <glx> no it's reality 21:55:18 <marioxcc> here is an explanin, for example http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.html 21:56:41 <planetmaker> your link doesn't support your argument 21:57:01 * Rubidium wonders whether ignoring marioxcc is a power or a freedom 21:57:01 <Zuu> Eg. if I for example like OOS/FOSS and want to support it, then it is my choice to GPL the software, but it should remain my choise as the author of the work. 21:57:16 *** Fixer [~Fixer@91.202.128.79] has left #openttd [] 21:57:32 <planetmaker> Rubidium: both 21:57:51 * planetmaker agrees with Zuu 21:58:00 <marioxcc> Zuu: copyright is an atifical permission for the author 21:58:04 <marioxcc> it isn't a natural right 21:58:15 <marioxcc> bt an artificial one for the sake of the users 21:58:25 <marioxcc> part of the history is here: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/misinterpreting-copyright.html 21:58:39 <ccfreak2k> Actually, it's for the sake of the author. 21:59:00 <marioxcc> ccfreak2k: yes, curretly is 21:59:15 <marioxcc> but it shouldn't be, in the begin it was not 21:59:38 <marioxcc> it's on the original US constitution for example, a chunk is quoted on that page 22:00:08 <Rubidium> that reminds me of the (Dutch) Pirate Party coming in here trying to please us by reducing copyright to 5 years and completely removing copyright for non-commercial releases... 22:00:08 <glx> US constitution doesn't apply to me 22:00:13 <planetmaker> copyright was always about restricting user rights and giving authors control over their... intelectual property 22:00:28 <planetmaker> and these things pre-cede the foundation of the US 22:00:41 *** Sacro1 [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-42-4.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:00:48 <marioxcc> well, i don't want to discuss 22:00:59 <marioxcc> if you want gates or jobs to be your master, is your problem 22:01:12 <glx> that's unrelated 22:01:13 <marioxcc> i don't, i want freedom on my computer 22:01:15 * planetmaker generally dislikes fundamentalism 22:01:26 <planetmaker> Whatever colour or aim they propagate 22:01:43 <Rubidium> marioxcc: but... are you completely free on your computer with all that data being stored "somewhere"? 22:02:00 <marioxcc> Rubidium: i don't understand 22:02:06 <marioxcc> ¿somewhere? 22:02:18 <glx> and your computer uses licenced material, like CPU, GPU, ... 22:02:25 <Zuu> If you want freedome in your computer, then I suggest supporting authors that do release their source code as open sourrce etc. rather than atacking the system or even wores bypassing the system by illegaly downloading stuff. 22:02:26 <planetmaker> evil! 22:02:32 <Rubidium> marioxcc: google, ISP, swift, ... 22:02:50 <Rubidium> not even talking about those internet filters 22:02:56 <glx> even BIOS is not free 22:03:06 <marioxcc> Zuu: laws made for restric freedoms have no moral autorithy 22:03:21 <marioxcc> i have to obey them because it's a law, not because i think they are right 22:03:31 <Rubidium> ALL laws restrict *someone's* freedom 22:03:33 *** Black_Phoenix [~phoenix@93.126.99.23] has quit [] 22:03:33 <glx> so you prefer anarchy 22:03:39 <marioxcc> no 22:03:42 <planetmaker> sure 22:03:50 <ccfreak2k> Zuu, indeed, downloading proprietary software in that fashion only shows that you still desire their software. 22:03:53 <marioxcc> go hell people, i just come here chating of free software 22:03:59 <planetmaker> freedom always ends there where it impacts the freedom of another person 22:04:03 <Rubidium> or said differently: name me one law that doesn't restrict someone's freedom 22:04:13 <marioxcc> and you just flame me because of that, you think i must be a slave of what authors says 22:04:14 <marioxcc> go hell 22:04:19 <marioxcc> :( 22:04:21 *** marioxcc [~user@200.92.184.45] has left #openttd [ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:04:32 <planetmaker> fundamentalist 22:04:56 <ccfreak2k> And now back to our reguarly scheduled programming consisting mostly of semi-comatose clock-watching. 22:05:02 <Rubidium> no... you come here to preach your (according to multiple people) incorrect ideas 22:05:08 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-25-5-181.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 22:09:29 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@d99-199-13-89.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:09:36 <Zuu> Or we can plan the super-cool plugin system that everyone wants. :-p 22:09:40 <ccfreak2k> I want to buy this four pack of tickets to the state fair, but I need to find three other people that would be going. 22:11:10 <Zuu> Sounds like a task for tt-forums off topic forum. 22:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> hhm... is the fundamentalist gone yet? 22:11:27 <Zuu> Yep he left 5 minutes ago. 22:11:33 <ccfreak2k> Zuu, I really meant three people I know. 22:11:36 <glx> anyway a user is free to not use a software if he doesn't like the license ;) 22:11:42 <ccfreak2k> :( 22:11:48 *** JakeGrimshaw [~jake.grim@5e04ff19.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 22:12:31 <Zuu> glx: Indeed 22:13:05 <Zuu> But that's not the same thing as forcing all software to have a Free Software license. 22:13:53 <glx> that's just a stupid idea 22:14:35 *** Sacro1 [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-8-102.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 22:16:09 <Zuu> If more users took their right to choose software based on the license they could actually affect the supply of softwares, but now they just whine about the price / lack of freedom of software. 22:16:46 <Rubidium> it's not the single users that are the problem 22:16:46 *** Markk is now known as Markk^ 22:16:47 *** Markk_ is now known as Markk 22:17:13 <Zuu> Oh yea, it is never my fault, it's always someone else that sholud do things right. :-D 22:17:24 <Rubidium> it's the large corporate world where the person that has to implement stuff has nothing to say about what to use and the prik that runs the company tells what software to use 22:18:53 <Rubidium> Zuu: if 100 people would say: we're not going to use Windows anymore they'd likely be lieing because they need it for their work 22:19:26 <Zuu> True 22:19:27 <glx> or their games 22:19:33 <Rubidium> and they'd be using the stuff they're familiar with because they aren't brought up to think for themselves 22:19:44 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-8-102.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:23:18 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-8-102.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 22:29:54 *** Sacro1 [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-8-102.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:33:08 *** Sacro1 [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-8-102.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd 22:33:08 *** tdev [~udev@p508EA05F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: free open source vehicle simulator: http://rigsofrods.com] 22:39:36 *** Sacro [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-8-102.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:39:47 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D935F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Regel Nr. 1: Jeder hört auf mein Kommando! - Regel Nr. 2: Jeder bleibt auf dem Weg! - Regel Nr. 3: ... ... 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