Log for #openttd on 11th July 2010:
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03:30:10  <Moodles> is it possible to increase the size of the gui when running high resolutions like 1920x1200?
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06:12:36  <planetmaker> Moodles: yes and no.
06:12:59  <planetmaker> you can manually use different fonts and their sizes in the cfg
06:13:06  <planetmaker> you can't change the size of the sprites
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07:07:25  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:41:01  <__ln__> 10:40 o'clock and already 26 degrees celsius...
07:41:24  <Moodles> planetmaker: its the top left i need bigger, that menu
07:43:46  <planetmaker> Draw bigger icons
07:43:58  <planetmaker> Then there's a chance to create a bigger menu
07:44:14  <planetmaker> are you ready to work for it?
07:44:39  <b_jonas> I don't want a bigger menu, because I want better keyboard shortcuts instead
07:44:56  <planetmaker> b_jonas: then try the nightlies. Freely configurable
07:45:04  <b_jonas> oh, great
07:47:16  <planetmaker> first thing I did was install a shortcut for autoroad, too :-)
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08:11:30  <Wolf01> HELO
08:11:36  <Wolf01> USER Wolf01
08:11:40  <Wolf01> PASSWD mine
08:13:15  * SpComb reconfigures Wolf01's SMTP client
08:13:21  <SpComb> connecting to the wrong port
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08:13:31  <Wolf01> :D
08:13:36  <Wolf01> hello frosch123
08:13:43  <frosch123> morning wolf
08:18:47  * Zuu does not have a thermometer but enjoys some morning hours when it at least is colder outside than inside so you can keep the window open.
08:21:19  <Wolf01> those from the 6:00am and 9:00am? here is already a hell...
08:23:22  <planetmaker> I wish, I wish
08:23:49  <planetmaker> I've no problem with the temp. and shorts and T-Shirt at 3am... which indicates it's WAY too warm in the night ;-)
08:23:55  <planetmaker> moin also :-)
08:25:57  <Wolf01> 26°C tonight, and 400000% humidity
08:26:07  <planetmaker> :-)
08:26:47  <planetmaker> well. Now it's 30°C and 65% humidity here
08:26:53  <planetmaker> at frigging 10:30h...
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08:37:21  * Rubidium is still wondering whether he should be happy for last night's thunderstorms
08:38:24  <Rubidium> missing trains due to severely limited speeds, massive delays with the train (45m), ... so late in E'de that I had to walk home (or pay a lot for a taxi)
08:39:51  <planetmaker> he
08:39:58  * planetmaker still hopes for the thunderstorm today
08:40:17  <Rubidium> and then the thunderstorm reaching this place only around 02:30
08:40:31  <planetmaker> though the bicycle ride home yesterday night was quite nice
08:42:59  * Zuu dreams of a fan, but starting the desktop computer just to being able to use its PCU to power some fans is probably not a good idea as it would produce a lot of heat.
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08:50:03  <b_jonas> stupid trains, stop whining about being lost when I'm fixing your track, or I'll get annoyed and _really_ make you get lost
08:50:31  <valhallasw> then switch off the lost nags
08:50:57  <Zuu> Or either build a bypass while you are reconstructing or use build in pause cheat.
08:51:37  <b_jonas> valhallasw: they're not in a separate category in the message settings
08:52:36  <b_jonas> it's in "Advice / information on company's vehicles" I think
08:53:00  <b_jonas> ah, I see, there's an advanced options
08:53:07  <b_jonas> for "Warn if train is lost"
08:53:07  <b_jonas> thanks
08:58:53  <valhallasw> np
08:59:16  <valhallasw> although I had no idea where the switch was, either :-)
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09:01:58  <Samu> hi
09:02:18  <Alberth> hai
09:02:35  <Samu> may i return to the forum? I decided to come back
09:02:44  <Zuu> Why not?
09:03:04  <Samu> what must I do then?
09:03:20  <Zuu> Log in to your account?
09:03:31  <Samu> invalid password
09:03:32  <Samu> and
09:03:44  <Samu> account manually disabled by admin
09:03:52  <Zuu> As far as you know your user name you should probably be able to get the password as an email.
09:04:11  <Zuu> Do you know of any reason why the admin might have disabled it?
09:04:19  <Samu> yes, it was my request
09:04:33  <Zuu> Then you have to ask the admin to re-enable it I think.
09:04:45  <Samu> I sent an email to hyronymus
09:04:50  <Samu> :)
09:05:08  <Zuu> Then just sit and wait. :-)
09:05:24  <Samu> it's a much pacific forum
09:05:45  <Samu> I am also posting on the forums
09:05:50  <Samu> I came from there
09:06:06  <Zuu> It's actually more european than pacific.
09:06:23  <Samu> I mean peaceful
09:06:26  <Samu> pacifie
09:07:11  <Zuu> ok
09:07:23  <Moodles> is there any frontend's for editing the openttd config file?
09:07:30  <Alberth> openttd
09:07:49  <Samu> does anyone here play war3?
09:07:54  <Zuu> <random text editor with highlighting>
09:08:11  <Samu> I saw rubidium name in a 4v4 replay on azeroth
09:08:15  <Samu> wondering if it's him
09:08:42  <Zuu> I usually don't play and if I do then it is mostly OpenTTD. :-)
09:09:14  <planetmaker> [11:07]	<Samu>	does anyone here play war3? <-- you are in the wrong IRC channel. Clearly
09:09:28  <Samu> it was because of rubidium
09:10:43  <Samu> hmm talking about replays... openttd replays?
09:11:41  <Terkhen> no
09:11:58  <Zuu> There has been some work on series of semi-gaint screenshots taken every month or so.
09:12:00  <Alberth> you could save all autosave files :)
09:12:25  <Samu> heh, not exactly the same thing
09:12:29  <Zuu> Using some video tool the screenshots can then be turned into a video file.
09:12:33  <Terkhen> save the initial map and log all commands
09:12:48  <Rubidium> Samu: why would I? I already pay enough taxes so others can play war
09:12:51  <Samu> yes I think that's how replays work
09:13:09  <Samu> hi rubidium
09:13:24  <Samu> I thought you played warcraft 3 :)
09:13:27  <Rubidium> Terkhen: that sounds a lot like... desync debugging (or on other words: it's already implemented)
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09:15:08  <Samu> how much kb/s to run a server for 100 years?
09:15:57  <Samu> erm, I mean what is the total
09:16:20  <Zuu> IIRC there is some kind of estimate in the wiki
09:16:54  <Zuu> possible on the multiplayer article or an article linked from it.
09:19:32  <planetmaker> 2kb /s + map download
09:19:36  <planetmaker> per client
09:20:10  <planetmaker> 24 clients used 55kbit on our server
09:21:33  <Samu> i found it
09:21:54  <Samu> how many seconds does a year last?
09:21:58  <Samu> i can calculate
09:22:17  <Samu> hmm
09:22:24  <Samu> a 24/7 server costs 60gb/s
09:22:28  <Samu> with 10 players
09:22:45  <b_jonas> Samu: 60 GB/s ?
09:22:50  <b_jonas> you mean 60 GB/month?
09:23:09  <Samu> per month ya
09:23:11  <Samu> lol
09:25:04  <Samu> do you know how long does 1 year take in openttd?
09:27:01  <planetmaker> yes
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09:27:37  <planetmaker> [11:21]	<Samu>	how many seconds does a year last? <-- approx. Pi * 10**7
09:28:03  <Samu> can't find it in the wiki
09:29:14  <Samu> ah game mechanics
09:30:35  <Samu> hmm nope, i can't find it
09:31:13  <frosch123> @calc 365*74*0.03
09:31:13  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 810.3
09:31:27  <frosch123> how often do we answer that question?
09:32:00  <Rubidium> from Game Mechanics wiki page: "If in the game's time a day is 2.36 seconds"
09:32:18  <frosch123> @calc 74*0.03
09:32:18  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2.22
09:32:49  <frosch123> @calc 2.36/74
09:32:50  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 0.0318918918919
09:33:27  <Samu> ah, thanks
09:34:07  <Alberth> now please add a link to that info at the wiki where you were looking
09:35:02  <Samu>
09:35:12  <Samu> i found it, it's slightly hidden
09:35:23  <Samu> must read all to find it
09:35:23  <Alberth> obviously too hidden
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09:36:31  <Rubidium> ah well... just try a "proper" encyclopedia first :)
09:37:25  <Samu> 2.36*365*1.2
09:37:46  <Alberth> Rubidium: so many words.....
09:38:30  <Samu> 1033 kb for a 100 year replay, I think
09:38:53  <Samu> must be wrong
09:39:14  <Samu> ah wait
09:39:16  <Samu> for 1 year!
09:39:23  <Samu> so for 100 years is
09:39:26  <Samu> 103MB
09:39:27  <Samu> lol
09:39:58  <Samu> then it can be compressed
09:40:12  <Samu> not sure how the server handles data
09:40:23  <Samu> does it send it compressed between users?
09:40:46  * Rubidium wonders whether Samu has any idea how compression works
09:40:56  <Samu> i don't know
09:41:24  <Rubidium> every compared digital television to analog and wondered by analog can switch within milliseconds and digital takes seconds
09:41:35  <Rubidium> and why analog arrives earlier than digital?
09:41:44  <Spoons> Because it's badly implemented!  Zing.
09:42:22  <Rubidium> Spoons: basically yes... it *needs* to know what's coming in the next second or so to do proper compression
09:42:33  <Rubidium> which causes a lag of a second
09:42:48  <Samu> ah, nice :)
09:42:48  <Rubidium> the same will happen when you're adding compression to OpenTTD's commands
09:42:48  *** Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
09:43:06  <Rubidium> and then you'll have the lag both ways...
09:43:27  <FauxFaux> You could just use a hilariously tiny window.  Although, knowing you madmen, all the commands are bitpacked to hell anyway.
09:43:34  <Samu> I'm confused now, does it compress it or not?
09:44:12  <Zuu> Not the commads that are sent Client <-> Server as I read Rubidium. However the save games are usually compressed.
09:44:31  <Samu> yes, that's what I was asking :)
09:44:42  <Samu> ok, thank you
09:45:04  <Rubidium> Zuu: but it sends the compressed savegames without compressing that data stream
09:45:12  <Zuu> If you want to make a replay patch you can probably compress the logged commands as there is no problem to keep a few seconds of data in a buffert in that case.
09:45:34  <Samu> I understand now, it makes sense to me too
09:45:50  * Rubidium already made a replay patch... and if you tell your OS to compress the output file everything will just be fine
09:46:41  <Samu> an example, 1 game of warcraft 3 takes about 1 Megabyte total on my consumes
09:46:56  <Samu> but when I load that game replay
09:47:00  <Samu> it's about 150 kb
09:47:06  <Zuu> And even if you leave out compression (even at OS-level) having a 100 MB file floating around that is then compressed when the game has ended is not that bad either.
09:50:11  <frosch123> it gets bigger if you add key frames which contain a whole savegame
09:52:41  <Samu> Warcraft 3 replays don't log the map, but Starcraft do
09:53:00  <Samu> That's maybe part of the reason we can see replays online in Starcraft
09:53:39  <Samu> if you don't have the original map when you load a war3 replay, it doesn't work :(
09:53:48  <Samu> well, openttd with replays would be cool
09:55:59  <Samu> I have a question about ntfs
09:56:16  <Alberth> is that a new train?
09:56:33  <Samu> microsoft says compressed hard discs with the ntfs run faster
09:56:41  <Samu> ew... :(
09:56:58  <frosch123> maybe decompression is faster than reading from the disc
09:57:19  <Alberth> given todays CPUs I would not be surprised
09:57:25  <Samu> was wondering if some really fast compressing method could be impremented
09:57:33  <Samu> for openttd servers
09:57:41  <Samu> I don't know... just wondering
09:58:02  <Samu> server - client
09:58:10  <Alberth> Samu: trivial:  'copy data plainly' is very fast for compressing :)
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09:58:39  <Alberth> server <-> client data is never stored at a disk
09:59:03  <Samu> but the goal is less bandwidth
09:59:12  <Samu> less than 1.2 kb/s
09:59:17  <planetmaker> Samu: OpenTTD uses VERY little bandwidth
09:59:45  <planetmaker> any video stream is orders of magnitude higher
09:59:46  <Samu> I see, well I was on mobile connection a few days ago
10:00:05  <planetmaker> there's no problem with mobile connections sustaining that data rate
10:00:06  <Samu> i have 100 mb for free, but after that it's pay time
10:00:29  <planetmaker> what eats your budget is the savegame download
10:01:12  <planetmaker> For an average map of 0.5Mbyte you can play like
10:01:14  <Samu> yes, another suggestion for that, download the map only once, and keep it in the cache
10:01:15  <planetmaker> @calc  500000 * 8 / 2.2
10:01:15  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 1818181.81818
10:01:26  <planetmaker> half an hour
10:02:02  <Samu> then if the user drops from the game and reconnects, it wouldn't be needed to reload the entire game again
10:02:17  <Samu> it gets only part of what hasn't been cached
10:02:32  <SmatZ> hello people :)
10:02:41  <SmatZ> Samu: interesting idea, I wonder how much would that save
10:02:45  <Alberth> Samu: then you need to keep all commands around
10:03:08  <Samu> I think the other problem is
10:03:14  <Samu> CPU
10:03:16  <Samu> lol
10:03:18  <SmatZ> I rather meant something like keep just generation seed+other mapgen parameters
10:03:34  <SmatZ> and instead of whole map, send just difference in the map array
10:05:06  <SmatZ> storing commands is not possible, syncing would take ages
10:05:16  <Wolf01> that sounds like the "undo" feature if used reversed, you might get 2 features in one.. :D
10:05:32  <SmatZ> :)
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10:06:28  <Samu> hmm, what if there's a time limit the user can be out of the game?
10:06:36  <Samu> say, no longer than 10 minutes
10:06:52  <Samu> or something defined by the server
10:06:53  <SmatZ> still, syncing could take several minutes after reconnect
10:07:55  <Samu> hmm, how do mmorts games work? I never played one
10:08:43  <Samu> I just read the player can leave the game at any time and reconnect later on
10:08:54  <Samu> like a day later or so
10:08:54  <SmatZ> in those games, you only need information about near surrounding around you
10:09:00  <SmatZ> in OTTD, you need to know the whole map
10:09:47  <Samu> an AI will take control of his stuff while he's not playing
10:09:58  <Samu> it's a weird concept for me
10:10:04  <Samu> but I see
10:10:14  <Samu> so it's similar to mmorpg
10:11:34  <Samu> the issue is indeed the real-time aspect
10:11:47  <Samu> what you see is what everyone sees too
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10:16:58  <Zuu> In games where the map is mostly static and you have a few units, then you can cache the map and just update the unit locations and state of them. In OpenTTD the map changes and therefore it is harder to cache the map and "just" update what has changed.
10:20:29  <Samu> 2048x2048 squares
10:20:30  <Samu> hehe
10:21:53  <Wolf01> the problem is that you need infinite caching and the server will be all the time caching the map
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10:23:41  <Wolf01> gah... updating the tags of 5GB of mp3
10:23:46  <Wolf01> takes ages
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10:24:03  <Samu> automatically?
10:24:07  <Wolf01> yeah
10:24:19  <Samu> well, sound recognition
10:24:25  <planetmaker> [12:20]	<Samu>	2048x2048 squares <-- if you play maps of that size, the biggest traffic part will in all cases be the map download
10:24:39  <Samu> must send part of it
10:25:01  <Wolf01> no, I just made a compilation and I need to clear track, album, year infos...
10:25:22  <Samu> aha planetmaker, was only mentioning
10:25:33  <Samu> I prefer 256x256 maps
10:25:41  <Wolf01> order the songs by artist and then rename files "artist - songname" to uniform the names
10:25:41  <Samu> my comp(s) can't run any faster
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10:35:45  <Samu> I have a question
10:36:01  <Samu> oops
10:36:01  <Samu> ok
10:36:11  <Samu> is it possible to save the game
10:36:21  <Samu> at the exact moment the player drops?
10:37:15  <Samu> and also have an auto-reconnect feature? I think you know what I'm trying to get to
10:39:49  <valhallasw> technically: yes and yes
10:40:07  <valhallasw> but it won't do what I think you're trying to get to, being reconnecting-without-having-to-download-the-map
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10:41:32  <Amis> Hello!
10:41:37  <planetmaker> it won't. Because the game on the server will have progressed already when the client detects that it dropped
10:41:40  <planetmaker> Hi Amis
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10:44:50  <Amis> (ottd 1.0.2) When I'm playing, the road/rail level crossing signals turn red only when the train is on the tile. Are there any way to make that signal behave like the one on the Main Menu screen? (It turns red when the train is 4~5 tiles away)
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10:45:25  <planetmaker> Amis: you need to use path signals
10:45:37  <planetmaker> then it'll work that way
10:45:44  <Amis> Oh I see
10:46:46  <Amis> Since path signals are the selected by default that means it's working perfectly? (Last time I played ottd was when they just introduced this)
10:47:02  <Alberth> ?
10:47:17  <Amis> Half year ago
10:47:22  <Amis> Or more maybe
10:47:23  <planetmaker> Amis: it always worked that way with path signals
10:47:32  <planetmaker> as long as they're present.
10:47:38  <planetmaker> And they're present for... 18 months?
10:47:46  <Alberth> crossings react on track reservations. path signals reserve the entire block, 'normal' signals only the current tile
10:47:53  <Amis> Huhh, time goes by
10:48:37  <Alberth> Amis: we had a head-start, playing with the nightlies :)
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10:49:44  <Amis> Something else: how can I reactivate an expired vehicle? (If possible)
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10:51:12  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20117 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Codechange: Use a Point struct to store double click position.
10:52:38  <Alberth>
10:52:50  <Alberth> freshly prepared this morning :p
10:53:03  <Amis> Thank you
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10:53:19  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20118 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Add: Detect if the mouse has been hovering over the same point.
10:54:08  <Amis> Weee, and it works, yay
10:54:54  <Samu> what have you guys tried to reduce bandwitdh?
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10:55:28  <Samu> the major cons in OpenTTD games is indeed that loading part
10:55:30  <Rubidium> use zlib instead of lzo for savegame compression
10:56:05  <Samu> I see
10:56:09  <SpComb> less trees
10:56:11  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20119 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp viewport.cpp window_gui.h): -Add: Tooltips can be removed if the user stops hovering the mouse.
10:56:18  <Rubidium> SpComb: yeah... that one too :)
10:56:44  <SpComb> although I've never tried to difference myself
10:57:22  <Rubidium> it can be quite significant
10:57:37  * Zuu senses tooltips on hover
10:57:54  <Rubidium> oh... and we're trying not to create tiles that need 128 bytes of storage
10:58:40  <Samu> there's a game where everyone tried to connect, it was paused most of the time, it is annoying
10:58:52  <Samu> 128 bytes per tile?
10:59:07  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20120 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp window.cpp window_gui.h): -Feature [FS#3913]: Tooltips are shown by hovering the mouse over a widget instead of by right clicking on it.
10:59:31  <Rubidium> Samu: 128*4 million = huge
10:59:50  <Rubidium> although 9*4 million is still quite big, it's not as huge as the other
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11:00:21  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20121 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp window.cpp window_gui.h): -Add: OnHover method for windows.
11:00:48  <Samu> is the data plain text?
11:00:51  <Samu> for a tile?
11:00:55  <Samu> how does it work?
11:01:02  <planetmaker> of course not plain text
11:01:10  <Rubidium> it's XML! :)
11:01:15  <planetmaker> :-P
11:01:18  <Rubidium> oh noes... that'
11:01:34  <Rubidium> oh noes... that's what other people want it to be so it's more flexible
11:01:36  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20122 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: Correct vehicle list tooltips at the depot window.
11:02:13  <Samu> hmm, there may be some nice compression algorythm out there suitable for that
11:02:39  <Eddi|zuHause> oh... any chance we are approaching "On Hover" tooltips?
11:02:47  <Zuu> Yes
11:02:56  <Terkhen> should already be working :)
11:03:04  <Zuu> See r20120
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11:04:07  <Samu> have you tried freearc or nanozip?
11:04:20  <Samu> or 7-zip lzma
11:04:24  <Samu> ppmd
11:04:33  <Zuu> The 5 pixel movement limit might need some tweaking depending on the exact implementation. But it is hard to find something that works for everyone. For a trackball you don't need a treshold but for pen tablets I usually find most hovering thresholds too low.
11:05:33  <Eddi|zuHause> lmaa?
11:05:40  <Terkhen> it could get a setting if required
11:05:55  <Eddi|zuHause> (sorry... i make that lame joke every time...)
11:06:00  <Terkhen> let's see what feedback it gets
11:06:09  <Rubidium> Samu: tried lzma, but the problem is that it's already deprecated in favour of lzma2... however lzma2 hasn't had a stable release yet
11:06:50  <Samu> :)
11:07:07  <planetmaker> that sounds pretty lame. Deprecation before a successor is available
11:07:15  <Zuu> I haven't tried yet so I can't really say anything other than the very broad spectra of acceptable limit that usally exist.
11:07:30  <Samu> I tried freearc the other day to compress some stuff
11:07:38  <Samu> it surprised me
11:07:46  <Samu> it's better than both winrar and 7-zip
11:07:54  <Samu> and faster
11:08:05  <Samu> but downside is memory
11:08:29  <Samu> nanozip does even better but way too slow compressing and decompressing
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11:09:17  <Rubidium> lzma can compress OTTD savegames up to 30% better, however... at those compression levels it takes ages
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11:16:20  <SmatZ>
11:17:04  <SmatZ> from this example, WinRK is ~15% better thannanozip
11:17:29  <SmatZ> but still, then time is important
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11:18:18  <b_jonas> planetmaker: oh, that sounds like grub
11:19:04  <planetmaker> ?
11:19:09  <Samu> winrk isn't free
11:19:20  <Samu> freearc and nanozip are free
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11:20:01  <frosch123> AcroRd32.exe <- what is that doing in the list of compressors?
11:20:29  <planetmaker> that's the file being compressed
11:20:58  <planetmaker> e.g. the test data
11:21:12  <planetmaker> s/e.g./i.e./
11:21:19  <frosch123> ah, so it should be labeled "uncompressed" :)
11:21:23  <planetmaker> yep
11:22:05  <planetmaker> hm, ratio in % is also the wrong description or unit
11:22:15  <SmatZ> set of files, sorted by some size/time ration
11:22:17  <SmatZ> -n
11:22:51  <SmatZ> nanozip is fine there :)
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11:23:23  <SmatZ> ~2 times faster than 7zip with lzma
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11:24:01  <planetmaker> ah... we just should apply jpeg compression. We can easily afford the loss of a few bits
11:24:08  <SmatZ> hehe :)
11:24:11  <planetmaker> It doesn't show in photos either ;-)
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11:27:28  <frosch123> yup, you can easily compensate that by using golden network connectors
11:28:03  <SmatZ> :D
11:28:15  <planetmaker> :-D
11:28:45  <SmatZ> I can't find nanozip's sources, so it is a no-way for OpenTTD
11:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with golden connectors is that you can only unplug them like six times... then all the gold plating is gone...
11:29:04  <Ammler> SmatZ: that table misses the time
11:29:37  <SmatZ> Ammler: this one doesn't :)
11:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> # Ich wollte dir
11:29:57  <Eddi|zuHause> # Nur mal eben sagen
11:30:01  <Eddi|zuHause> # Dass du das
11:30:06  <Eddi|zuHause> # Größte fÃŒr mich bist
11:33:45  <VVG> hello
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11:34:47  <Ammler> I played a lot with those tools for the GRFPack
11:35:01  <Ammler> not found anything better than 7zip
11:40:34  <Samu> I see WinXP (NTFS) in that site, lol
11:42:21  <Samu> wow.... FreeArc is ranked 2 positions lower than NTFS compression speed
11:42:34  <Samu> but nearly the double ratio
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11:43:27  <Samu> 39% vs 71% for just 1 second difference
11:43:54  <frosch123> i guess you can see the i/o speed in that table. quite often decompression is slower than compression
11:44:13  <Samu> what is the i/o
11:44:18  <Samu> I don't know what it means
11:44:26  <frosch123> input/output
11:44:28  <frosch123> i mean the disk
11:44:33  <frosch123> or whatever
11:45:16  <frosch123> or is my assumption wrong, that decompression should be faster than compression?
11:45:30  <Samu> it should be
11:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> from a complexity theory point of view, decompression should usually be faster
11:47:10  <Eddi|zuHause> especially if you consider 99% of the accesses to be read access, optimising the decompression makes sense...
11:47:22  <frosch123> unless if involves some encryption/decryption stuff :)
11:47:42  <SmatZ> frosch123: not always :)
11:47:46  <Eddi|zuHause> encryption and compression are diametral operations...
11:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause> compression should reduce redundancy, encryption should add redundancy
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11:50:55  <Samu> pkzip, haha, I remember using that in DOS
11:51:25  <frosch123> today it is called winzip, and is afaik still the same
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11:54:11  <Samu>
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11:54:20  <Samu> lots of features I have no idea what they mean
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11:54:51  <b_jonas> frosch123: I think it depends on what the compressor is optimized for. for source trees on mirrors, ideally the decompression should be faster, whereas for backups you rarely read, ideally the compression should be faster.
11:55:00  <b_jonas> but in practice, the decompression is almost always faster.
11:55:35  <frosch123> b_jonas: i just mean from a theoretical point of view, without considering disk speed and such
11:55:37  <b_jonas> planetmaker: "oh, that sounds like grub" is because you said "that sounds pretty lame. Deprecation before a successor is available"
11:56:48  <andythenorth> hi hi
11:56:54  <andythenorth> hi ho
11:56:59  <Alberth> hi andy
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11:57:19  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
12:06:15  <andythenorth> anything happening?
12:08:26  <frosch123> siesta
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12:11:00  <planetmaker> I get bug reports for SwedishRails which complain about OpenTTD not working as shown in and
12:11:19  <frosch123> planetmaker: you use the newgrf groundtype variable, right?
12:11:51  <planetmaker> you mean I query the terrain type? Sure
12:12:21  <frosch123> exactly, and that one is not as bright as smatz' code :)
12:12:30  <planetmaker> The issues mentioned mostly are: the wrong snow-awareness on tiles which use foundations
12:12:42  <frosch123> i started this morning on fixing that, but i am not very efficient at these temperatures
12:12:47  <planetmaker> and to a lesser extend the missing smooth transition
12:13:01  <planetmaker> hehe. These temperatures are really really bad, yeah
12:13:12  <frosch123> i am only talking about the foundation issue :)
12:13:29  <planetmaker> which is the bigger one, yes
12:13:55  <planetmaker> hm... though I'm sure SmatZY-patchy has a patch for that :-)
12:14:34  * andythenorth ponders what to do what to do
12:14:59  <planetmaker> andythenorth: snow aware forests
12:15:19  <andythenorth> probably the kind of thing Foobar likes to do
12:15:29  <andythenorth> I have to do FIRS 0.3 :| or something for HEQS I guess
12:15:47  * andythenorth faces up to FIRS 0.3
12:16:12  <andythenorth> setting cb flags correctly is always fun :)
12:16:18  <andythenorth> hmm
12:16:28  <andythenorth> seems industry debug info doesn't show enabled cbs?
12:16:41  <andythenorth> doh
12:16:47  <andythenorth> need to scroll :)
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12:16:51  <planetmaker> :-)
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12:22:40  * andythenorth ponders supplying animal food to certain farms
12:23:54  <planetmaker> "farm supplies"?
12:24:04  <andythenorth> nah, that's problematic
12:24:10  <planetmaker> how so?
12:24:19  <andythenorth> loops
12:24:32  <andythenorth> dairy farms need grain
12:25:08  <andythenorth> but if grain => farm supplies, then there's a case where grain farm can get in a self-boosting loop
12:25:16  <andythenorth> simpler to make dairy farm accept grain
12:25:21  <andythenorth> if I can be bothered...
12:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you have mixed farms, because they are self-boosting!
12:26:02  <andythenorth> :)
12:26:22  <Eddi|zuHause> animal feces is good for growing crops, growing crops is good for feeding animals
12:26:49  <Eddi|zuHause> hence the saying "auf eigenem Mist gewachsen"
12:26:57  <planetmaker> [14:24]	<andythenorth>	dairy farms need grain <-- uhm... not really
12:27:15  <planetmaker> they need hay. And special animal food
12:27:23  <planetmaker> (which contains grains, but not only)
12:27:23  <andythenorth> animal food comes from the feed plant
12:27:37  <planetmaker> and silage
12:27:57  <planetmaker> and usually hay and silage is self-made. But the "power-food" is bought
12:28:02  <andythenorth> think it's easier to leave it as-is :)
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12:33:14  <andythenorth> meh
12:34:24  <andythenorth> Terkhen: might have some new industry closure to test soon...
12:34:49  <b_jonas> aren't towns already in such a self-boosting loop?
12:35:01  <andythenorth> b_jonas: interesting question
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12:37:17  <Terkhen> andythenorth: no problem, will shorter/smaller tests be enough?
12:37:46  <andythenorth> Terkhen: yes, closures will show up within 5 years (or not)
12:37:53  <andythenorth> I'm just checking locally
12:37:56  <Terkhen> okay
12:38:41  <b_jonas> I've bought up one of the AIs and now I'm cleaning up after him
12:39:19  <b_jonas> I've sold all its planes and trucks, now I'll sell most of the trains and remove the train tracks, and then I'll clean up its airports and some of its roads
12:39:43  <andythenorth> frosch123: this line means I have to write my own closure code for secondary industry, yes/no?
12:39:43  <andythenorth> 	if (!callback_enabled && (indspec->life_type & INDUSTRYLIFE_PROCESSING)) {
12:41:54  <frosch123> yes
12:42:45  <andythenorth> meh :|
12:43:49  * andythenorth ponders closing on a random number
12:43:58  <andythenorth> for purposes of eeeeevil
12:44:16  <frosch123> why would you want to enable the change production callbacks unless for supplying your own closing code?
12:44:39  <andythenorth> to provide players with option to disable secondary closure
12:45:07  <frosch123> then use action6 to enable/disable the callback, or even just the industry behaviour :)
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12:45:58  <frosch123> anyway. suggestion for secondary industries: close if not serviced in last two years, with a probability depending on the distance to the next industry of same type
12:46:02  <andythenorth> the inertia is towards me writing the code :)
12:46:19  <andythenorth> writing closure code for 19 industries requires one template
12:46:31  <andythenorth> writing action 6 for 19 industries means changing 19 templates :o
12:46:50  <frosch123> why that?
12:46:54  <planetmaker> not really. Action6 can also be templated ;-)
12:47:11  <frosch123> you do not have to put everything in one action6
12:47:15  <frosch123> err, action0
12:47:24  <andythenorth> ah good point
12:47:29  <andythenorth> one template, 19 action 0s?
12:47:50  <andythenorth> sounds like the kind of task planetmaker excels at :)
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12:48:44  <planetmaker> he
12:48:55  <planetmaker> at 32°C I don't excel at anything.
12:49:42  <andythenorth> frosch123: how serious is your plan to improve closure algorithm?
12:49:54  <andythenorth> as writing some nfo for this isn't really very hard
12:49:57  <andythenorth> just boring to test :)
12:50:15  <andythenorth> but I won't bother if you're going to provide something better in game
12:52:10  <frosch123> i want to do: 1. balance opening and closure, so that equal amounts of industries are opened as closed (especially for smooth economy that does not hold currently). 2. make random productionchanges also depend on number of industries, not only map size. 3. add advanced settings to scale the amounts of random production changes (including opening and closeure via random callback).
12:52:36  <andythenorth> 1 makes sense
12:52:36  <frosch123> nothing of that affects the monthly callback which is imo not suited at all for closure, as that is unbalanced with opening
12:53:06  * andythenorth ponders handling closure on random cb
12:53:22  <planetmaker> why not, andythenorth ?
12:53:30  <andythenorth> makes sense
12:53:33  <planetmaker> as long as it doesn't affect serviced ones
12:53:40  <andythenorth> means I don't have to handle random in the grf
12:54:11  <planetmaker> good for FIRS :-) Easier to code
12:54:14  <andythenorth> yup
12:54:27  <andythenorth> just set a simple condition that is either met or not met
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12:55:11  <andythenorth> game can handle distributing random stuff, changes by map size etc
12:55:30  * andythenorth 'confers 80+ variable structure'
12:56:12  * andythenorth looks for a 'cargo delivered' var
12:56:25  <andythenorth> looks like it will need to be handled with storage instead
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13:00:27  <andythenorth> frosch123: 2 years unserviced seems short?
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13:01:19  <frosch123> spoils those 2kx2k map players :p
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13:01:31  <frosch123> but maybe for 1800-ish play it is short
13:01:37  <frosch123> make it depend on date :)
13:01:46  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the trains are travelling 2 years, but there can be more than one train
13:02:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd be for 1 year no service -> treat as unserviced
13:03:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, don't make the serviced-protection too long, it just spoils your closure statistics
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13:05:04  <andythenorth> the problem with short closure periods is that the map is empty very quickly :o
13:05:21  <frosch123> then your probability is wrong
13:05:54  <andythenorth> but if I use random production change, that problem is decreased...or can be blamed on someone else :)
13:06:00  <frosch123> you cannot control emptyness by years, you only make the map become empty later
13:07:13  <andythenorth> think I'll do what I did with Power Station: n months protected, then indicate to player that industry is at risk.  But rely on random production change cb to come round and kill the industry
13:07:30  <andythenorth> should work
13:07:38  * andythenorth lunch
13:14:23  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20123 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Add [FS#3721]: Use all available space when drawing articulated road vehicles.
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13:44:17  <Wolf01> just for information, I enabled the heavy duty vehicles grf set, but how can I add more cars to them? Seem I'm able to have only the engine+the first car
13:45:19  <andythenorth> Wolf01: ?
13:46:35  <andythenorth> which vehicles?
13:46:42  <frosch123> Wolf01: some vehicle can be refitted
13:47:03  <Wolf01> I started on 1945, and I need to transport logs with the bulldozer thingies
13:47:16  <andythenorth> some bulldozers have more trailers than others
13:47:24  <andythenorth> there isn't a variable refit for those (yet)
13:48:27  <Wolf01> oh, so they are static, I must wait for a brand new vehicle if I want more cargo space?
13:48:44  <andythenorth> yes
13:48:49  <andythenorth> :)
13:48:54  <andythenorth> or buy more vehicles
13:50:45  <Alberth> if a user buys more vehicles, new ones get released faster :)
13:53:56  <andythenorth> umm...?
13:55:19  <Alberth> just idly pondering about another weird concept :)
13:56:05  * andythenorth wonders how many industry persistent storage slots exist?
13:56:07  <andythenorth> 16?
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14:04:43  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^
14:05:17  <frosch123> 16
14:05:47  <andythenorth> k
14:05:50  <andythenorth> thanks
14:06:00  * andythenorth scratches head for a bit
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14:10:51  <Wolf01> [15:55:28] <Alberth> just idly pondering about another weird concept :) <- fund research like on rollercoaster?
14:11:54  <Alberth> or go bankrupt, so you won't have any vehicles left to buy :p
14:12:19  <Alberth> but kind of, indeed
14:14:24  <Wolf01> very good players with maglevs on 1975...
14:22:49  * andythenorth ponders
14:23:07  <andythenorth> how about more vehicles == *longer* to get new ones
14:23:32  <andythenorth> :P
14:27:33  * andythenorth is epiclly baffled
14:28:23  <Alberth> could be nice too, why make a new vehicle if the old one sells so well :)
14:29:08  <andythenorth> how does turning on the production change cb destroy cargo definitions  9.9
14:29:33  * andythenorth has some debugging to do :(
14:31:13  <andythenorth> and the dep check seems to be broken :o
14:36:04  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20124 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix (r20118): Don't bring windows to front by hovering over them.
14:37:08  <frosch123> Wolf01: wouldn't your distance tooltip be more useful for the minimap?
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14:38:46  <Wolf01> Yes, it might be. But I never looked at the minimap code
14:39:37  <frosch123> hmm, too bad. both mouse buttons are already used in the minimap
14:39:45  <frosch123> else one could just drag a line in it or so
14:40:11  <Terkhen> ctrl + click
14:41:13  <Wolf01> I was also thinking about a "find the best route between mountains" with the A*
14:41:26  <frosch123> that's called NoAI
14:41:36  <Wolf01> for the player
14:41:57  <frosch123> oh, then it is called brain
14:42:35  <frosch123> Wolf01: isn't building the track the central point of playing OTTD? :o
14:43:24  <Wolf01> yes, but suggesting a touristic path might be a nice feature... instead of flattening a mountain to build a straight line
14:44:34  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've (again) got a template which is not seen by dep check.  I've forgotten how to fix it (sorry) :o
14:45:08  * Alberth has stopped flattening mountains a long time ago already
14:45:42  <Alberth> isn't planning that path part of the fun?   imho it is.
14:46:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, definitely
14:46:53  * Eddi|zuHause occasionally designed really beautiful paths
14:47:13  <andythenorth> any chance the industry debug windows could redraw more frequently?
14:47:34  <Alberth> have something moving under it :p
14:47:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: add an Invalidate() call at the right place
14:48:16  <Amis> I wonder if there ever been suggestions about airplanes crashing anywhere in the world not on airports only
14:48:33  * Alberth bets there have been
14:48:43  <Amis> That feature would be awesome
14:48:52  <Alberth> ow? why?
14:49:14  <Amis> That makes the game more realistic
14:49:31  <Alberth> luckily realism is not a design goal
14:49:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Amis: statistically, starting and landing are the most dangerous parts
14:49:47  <Alberth> how would it enhance game play
14:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Amis: it's really rare that planes simply drop from the sky mid-flight
14:50:09  <Eddi|zuHause> unless they hit a mountain, or so...
14:50:11  <Amis> But happens
14:50:34  <Amis> sometimes
14:51:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm against it...
14:51:16  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe crash at start could be introduced
14:51:23  <Alberth> the game abstracts from such occasions
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14:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause> it's bad enough that planes break down mid-flight
14:51:49  <Alberth> (flying into mountains, I means)
14:51:54  <Amis> This could happen when for example a broken plane is going in circle around a busy airport and can't land for a long period of time
14:52:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: "mountains" are only 800m high in openttd anyway :p
14:52:29  <andythenorth> what happens if I try and store more than FFFFFFFFh in persistent storage?
14:52:44  <Eddi|zuHause> did i mention we should have more heightlevels yet? :p
14:53:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it should wrap around...
14:53:23  <Eddi|zuHause> FFFFFFFFh + 1 = 0
14:53:38  <andythenorth> is it acceptable to ship closure code that *will* break if the player plays more than 357913941 years?
14:54:13  <andythenorth> that's 357 million years...
14:54:19  <Eddi|zuHause> time is limited to year 5 million
14:54:28  <andythenorth> and starting time is 0?
14:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, year 0
14:54:45  <andythenorth> suspect my code will be ok then
14:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause> note that the year 5 million is repeated over and over again
14:55:48  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 365.2425*5000000
14:55:49  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1826212500
14:55:57  <Amis> What can you do in year 0? :/
14:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Amis: depends on your newgrfs
14:56:18  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 365.2425*6000000
14:56:18  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 2191455000
14:56:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess 5Mio was the largest "round" number below 2^31 days
14:57:06  <Eddi|zuHause> there's quite some room there...
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15:04:38  * andythenorth crosses fingers and hopes for industries closing
15:06:09  <andythenorth> boom boom boom
15:06:15  <andythenorth> closures :)
15:06:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: the random change cb is scaled by map size?
15:07:18  <frosch123> currently yes
15:07:42  <frosch123> if you start 2kx2k map with a single industry, it is called twice per day for that single industry :p
15:07:57  <frosch123> resp. starting a 2kx2k map with no industries is kind of pointless
15:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: as it quickly fills itself?
15:09:54  <andythenorth> 1024x1024 map, normal industry; I'm seeing 5-6 industries close per month
15:10:06  <frosch123> yes, it funds a single industry, and then changes production at the said rate. so it closes very quickly again, or others show up :p
15:10:46  <andythenorth> I'm going to finish closure code.  Distributing how random it is can be someone else's problem :)
15:10:57  <andythenorth> hmm
15:11:06  <andythenorth> closing fishing harbours is a bit sad :(
15:11:53  <andythenorth> maybe fishing harbours should 'close' but stay
15:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause> accept tourists instead ;)
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15:13:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, openttd misses an "abandoned industry" concept...
15:13:50  <frosch123> andythenorth: so drop the production to zero, print "closed" in the window, and allow reopening it after 50 years
15:14:13  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would it work?
15:14:22  <b_jonas> nah, that would just be confusing
15:14:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno...
15:14:35  <b_jonas> if there's an industry on the map but it doesn't actually work, just remove it
15:14:51  * andythenorth has broken the cpp somehow :(
15:15:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the "C PreProcessor" or "CPlusPlus"?
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15:16:46  <andythenorth> the former
15:16:52  <morph> Hello, I'd like to ask a question about OpenTTD title bar size
15:17:03  <morph> How can I get it as big as in this screenshot? -
15:17:20  <morph> I tried to ask the author of the screenie but he's afk.
15:18:19  <Alberth> enlarge the picture in a program such as ff ?
15:18:31  <morph> ..
15:18:56  <morph> Look at the title bar size of the ingame dialog windows
15:19:02  <morph> It's "heightened"
15:19:07  <morph> How can I do that?
15:19:32  <morph> Direct link -
15:19:42  <Alberth> oh, he is running an old opengfx version
15:20:10  <Alberth> notice the red circular icon at the right of each window
15:20:11  <Alberth> ?
15:20:16  <Eddi|zuHause> morph: it's a bug
15:20:26  <Alberth> where the shade icon is with your version
15:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> the "circled i" icon
15:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't be there
15:20:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's larger than the icon that should be there
15:20:51  <morph> Looks more like a "feature" than a "bug" to me :(
15:21:10  <morph> <-- off to suggestion forums
15:21:21  <Alberth> gui widgets scale to their contents
15:21:32  <b_jonas> morph: I'm not sure, but I heared that in the nightly version the sizes adjust to font sizes so if you change the title bar font size to higher in the config file that might help.
15:21:47  <Alberth> so if you have a larger icon, everytinh gets larger
15:22:10  <Alberth> b_jonas: also in 1.0.x
15:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause> morph: you can have a bigger font in openttd.cfg, then the title bar scales to that font
15:22:51  <morph> Ok, thanks alot :)
15:23:03  <morph> Would be nice if there was a switch in the ingame configuration :)
15:23:36  <Alberth> you can switch base graphics sets already
15:24:04  <Alberth> we just need you to draw larger graphics
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15:25:05  * andythenorth ponders
15:25:28  * Alberth waves cool air to andythenorth
15:25:38  <andythenorth> it's not too hot here
15:25:49  <andythenorth> I am in Wales, famous for not-hot
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15:28:39  <andythenorth> planetmaker: not sure I understand FIRS parameters :)
15:28:45  <andythenorth> any chance of help?
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15:34:43  <andythenorth> if FIRS param 3 is set to 2....
15:34:50  <andythenorth> this evaluates true
15:34:50  <andythenorth>     7F PARAM_CLOSE_SECONDARY  00 FF // check if closure parameter is set
15:34:54  <andythenorth> this doesn't
15:35:05  <andythenorth>     7F PARAM_CLOSE_SECONDARY  01 01 // check if closure parameter is set
15:35:12  <andythenorth> umm
15:35:18  <andythenorth> that's nonsense, sorry
15:40:18  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I've just pushed some FIRS closure code that *seems* to work
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15:43:28  <morph> I tried changing the font size values in openttd.cfg, nothing changed ingame :/
15:43:56  <Terkhen> andythenorth: do you only need a log for param 3 set to 2?
15:44:08  <andythenorth> initially
15:44:15  <andythenorth> :)
15:44:59  <andythenorth> closure should also happen if param 3 is 3, 6 or 7
15:50:05  <Alberth> morph: you started a new game, right?
15:50:23  <andythenorth> frosch123: what do you think of random prod. change cb not touching same industry type more than once per month?
15:50:29  <morph> Tes.
15:50:35  <morph> I mean, yes, Alberth
15:51:37  <morph> What I did was I changed the values of large_size, medium_size, small_size in openttd.cfg.
15:51:50  <morph> Yet I don't see any bigger fonts.
15:52:24  <Alberth> you also need to set a different font, as the builtin fonts have only one size
15:52:40  <morph> Oh, ok.
15:52:45  <Alberth>  is what I do, you probably have to use a different font path
15:53:15  * andythenorth ponders primary industry closure
15:53:16  <Alberth> and I have an almost random font, as I use it for testing only
15:53:41  <Alberth> ie it is not necesarily nicely readable or so
15:54:08  <morph> Ok, I'll do that and inform you about progress
15:54:10  <morph> :)
15:54:52  * Alberth is afk to make and eat some food
15:56:47  <morph> Thanks, it worked, gl on your food! :)
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15:58:04  <Terkhen> andythenorth: <-- param 3 set to 2
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16:02:28  <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you know the map size?
16:02:41  <Terkhen> 256x256
16:03:02  <andythenorth> looks about right
16:03:14  <andythenorth> there's an 18 month protection period, then it just uses the random prod. change cb
16:04:02  <andythenorth> think I'll ship that version :)
16:04:12  <andythenorth> now I have to sort out primary closure
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16:08:36  <Rubidium> why did I read primary colour?
16:10:35  *** Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:11:40  <andythenorth> dunno
16:14:19  <andythenorth> Terkhen: could you run a test on the latest nightly with params 0 0 1?
16:14:27  <andythenorth> might need to run it for some time...
16:14:37  <Terkhen> time / size?
16:14:46  <andythenorth> size: large
16:14:55  <andythenorth> time, I don't know, I'm not sure it's working :(
16:15:01  <andythenorth> possibly 30 years or so?
16:15:04  <Terkhen> okay
16:15:07  <andythenorth> thanks
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16:25:29  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you close on the first random callback? :o
16:25:36  <frosch123> or is there some additional probability checked?
16:26:08  <andythenorth> frosch123: for secondary...there is an 18 month protection period.  Then 'boom' on first random cb
16:26:22  <frosch123> i guess that is too much :)
16:26:34  <andythenorth> too much protection?
16:26:54  <frosch123> closure of secondary as often as production change for primary
16:27:26  <andythenorth> I've learnt to not try and handle this in nfo :P
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16:28:50  <frosch123> original industries have 50% chance of closure on random callback
16:29:12  <andythenorth> I can add that if I can work out hex random
16:29:30  <andythenorth> I have random code lying around for this
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16:29:57  <frosch123> just use var18 (or 10?), mask some bits, and return the value
16:31:18  <andythenorth> masking with 02 gives me 50%?
16:31:27  <frosch123> check for 18 months, then check for (var18 and 1), and return 0 or 3 depending on that
16:31:57  <frosch123> (var18 and 1) is either 0 or 1, both with 50% chance
16:32:18  <frosch123> (var18 and 3) is either 0, 1, 2, or 3, each with 25% chance
16:32:37  <andythenorth> ok, nearly done
16:32:38  <frosch123> then you can decide whether to close on only 0, 0 and 1 or 0 and 1 and 2
16:32:52  <andythenorth> I'll try it with 50% chance
16:33:02  <andythenorth> I have this code already in primary :)
16:34:31  <andythenorth> `seems to work`
16:34:46  <andythenorth> I'm seeing 2-3 closures / month instead of 5-6
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16:40:06  <andythenorth> frosch123: any ideas on how to handle primary closure?
16:40:13  <andythenorth> I have current code for it, works like so:
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16:40:46  <andythenorth> if prod multiplier <= 4, random chance of closure (masked with 3F)
16:42:05  <frosch123> monthly cb is always bad for closure
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16:42:12  <frosch123> random cb is better
16:42:49  <frosch123> i guess for smooth economy i am going to do small production changes in monthly cb, and big changes/closure in random cb
16:43:14  <frosch123> but i have not tried yet :)
16:43:35  <andythenorth> for primary, I might just run random cb, returning 0D 80
16:47:29  <andythenorth> hmm
16:47:35  <andythenorth> this is fiddly
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16:56:13  * andythenorth wonders what the point of power stations is?
16:56:17  <andythenorth> :P
16:57:15  <Hirundo> coal sink ?
16:57:27  <Alberth> release CO2 in the atmosphere?
16:57:47  <Eddi|zuHause> ideally, power stations should have an effect on town growth...
16:58:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but that code hasn't been implemented yet...
16:58:34  <Alberth> ever noticed that power stations are normally close to a harbour and not to a city?
16:59:12  * andythenorth thinks of removing power stations from FIRS
16:59:29  <Alberth> perhaps do a global counting of powered power stattions
16:59:38  <andythenorth> there's no way to know they're powered
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16:59:58  <Alberth> andythenorth: it is hardly original imho
17:00:09  <Alberth> so I'd say get rid of them
17:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... fails to mention that "GetShortName" needs to return exactly 4 characters
17:00:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you don't exactly copy-paste the example, you easily run into that trap
17:01:06  <Alberth> fix the wiki
17:01:23  <Terkhen> andythenorth: <--- 2048x2048, 30 years, parameters 0 0 1
17:01:37  <Terkhen> see you tomorrow
17:01:41  <Alberth> bye
17:01:56  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:02:14  <andythenorth> Terkhen: thanks
17:02:16  <andythenorth> bye
17:04:45  * andythenorth removes power station :)
17:05:08  <Alberth> the whole country goes dark
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17:07:49  <andythenorth> frosch123: does the standard primary production change run monthly *and* random, or random only?
17:08:19  <frosch123> non-smooth economy uses only random cb
17:08:54  <frosch123> smooth economy uses only monthly, but as i said that is unbalanced for closure of primary and secondary
17:10:12  <andythenorth> I am trying to work out whether to offer players a way to use 'built in primary changes' with FIRS, by-passing the code I've written
17:10:24  <andythenorth> it adds complexity :P
17:11:15  <andythenorth> this is already complex :(
17:11:38  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20125 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp:
17:11:38  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Change: [NewGRF] If a tile has a snow-flag in the map array, use that for
17:11:38  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: Terrain Type variables, instead of always only using the tile Z position. Also
17:11:38  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: use the maximum Z of a tile for tiles which usually have levelling foundations
17:11:38  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: (stations, houses, industries, unmovables).
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17:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause> so what about road foundations?
17:12:33  <frosch123> they have a snow-flag
17:12:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but last time, a different calculation than rail-foundations
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17:13:17  <frosch123> i did not change that
17:13:24  <frosch123> nor am i going to :)
17:13:26  <andythenorth> hmmm.....frosch123: so for primary I am using random cb to handle closure.  Does that mean industries won't close on smooth economy setting??
17:13:52  <andythenorth> sorry, all the economy stuff is baffling :o
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17:14:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: smooth economy setting does not affect newgrf industries
17:14:27  <andythenorth> fine fine
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17:28:33  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20126 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Fix [FS#3883]: Make railtype Terrain Type variable aware of RAIL_GROUND_HALF_SNOW. That is, resolve the sprites for upper and lower part of the foundation independently.
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17:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> interesting...
17:36:15  <Eddi|zuHause> now we also need half-rivers and half-canals
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17:36:45  <Rubidium> and half-ignores?
17:38:40  <andythenorth>  /me wonders why primary production would increase when he's written code to prevent such a thing :P
17:39:09  <andythenorth> it's *not* due to month lenght
17:39:36  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20127 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#3929]: Replace 'invalid engine' with 'vehicle model'.
17:40:25  <frosch123> well, remove an "invalid", or add one. just as you like
17:45:50  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20128 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:50  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:50  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 57 changes by kokobongo
17:45:50  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: croatian - 5 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:50  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: finnish - 9 changes by jpx_
17:45:52  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by glx
17:45:52  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: german - 9 changes by planetmaker
17:51:15  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20129 /trunk/os/debian/ (control patches/run-openttd-wrapper.patch rules): -Add [Debian]: debug symbols package
17:51:40  * andythenorth wonders how to backport things to FIRS 0.3
17:55:04  <Ammler> hg transplant
17:55:57  <Rubidium> svn merge -c <rev>[,<rev>[,<rev>[,<rev>[..]]]] ^/trunk
17:58:18  <andythenorth> thanks
17:59:04  <Ammler> not sure, how svn merge.. will help :-)
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18:02:41  <Alberth> that's how you copy changesets svn style
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18:38:54  * andythenorth requests more words in Bananas :P
18:40:12  <Rubidium> use shorter words
18:43:36  <Ammler> andythenorth: release is comming...
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19:50:14  <Black_Phoenix> Hi, can I switch off industries telling me their increase/decrease in production in newspapers
19:50:22  <Zuu> Why do not socer players learn to be at least somewhat good on their "wrong" foot?
19:50:34  <Black_Phoenix> Playing on a 1024x1024 map with plenty of factories makes news never go off-screen
19:50:55  <Markk> Black_Phoenix: Press and hold the "News"-button to the right.
19:51:11  <Markk> And choose News settings (Or something in that way).
19:51:18  <Black_Phoenix> Oh yeah
19:51:24  <Black_Phoenix> I forgot that button existed
19:51:26  <Black_Phoenix> Thanks
19:51:27  <Markk> :)
19:51:33  <Markk> No problem. :)
19:52:37  <Black_Phoenix> Finnaly! Sweet silence
19:52:49  <Markk> :D
19:53:36  <Black_Phoenix> One more question, can I somehow change schedule for large groups of vehicles at once
19:53:42  <andythenorth> shared orders
19:53:47  <Black_Phoenix> How do I do that?
19:53:56  <andythenorth>
19:53:57  <Alberth> read wiki :)
19:54:04  <andythenorth>
19:54:51  <Black_Phoenix> The button is not active
19:55:05  <Black_Phoenix> Or
19:55:07  <Black_Phoenix> nevermind
19:58:44  <Black_Phoenix> Sorted it all out :P
19:59:53  <andythenorth> brrrr
20:00:00  <andythenorth> can login to bananas, but not the ottd wiki
20:00:19  <andythenorth> silly captcha
20:00:21  <andythenorth> :)
20:00:29  <andythenorth> now resolved
20:01:24  <Black_Phoenix> one more question
20:01:37  <Black_Phoenix> do slopes and trees near runway edges affect crash probability
20:01:45  <Alberth> no need to announce you are going to ask a question :)
20:01:57  <Alberth> no
20:02:05  <Black_Phoenix> hmm
20:02:08  <Alberth> you can even fly through building, no problem
20:02:16  <planetmaker> ctrl+click with goto is your friend
20:02:27  <Black_Phoenix> I remember some website said that you could plant trees near competitor airports and planes would crash more often, but that was original TT
20:02:42  <andythenorth> some websites are often wrong :)
20:02:50  *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@] has joined #openttd
20:03:02  <Black_Phoenix> well it kind of worked in TT, at least it looked like if it did
20:03:14  *** bryjen [~bryjen@] has joined #openttd
20:03:17  <Rubidium> they didn't crash due to trees in TTO
20:03:21  <Rubidium> nor TTD
20:03:38  <Black_Phoenix> and does plane speed divider affect income
20:03:45  <Alberth> yep
20:03:47  <Black_Phoenix> oh good
20:03:57  <Alberth> plane takes longer to travel -> less income
20:04:15  <Black_Phoenix> I mean that I set it to 1/2 instead of 1/4, and put airports twice further away from each other
20:04:21  <Black_Phoenix> hmm
20:04:26  <Black_Phoenix> actually I don't make sense
20:04:36  <Black_Phoenix> the time will not change :P
20:04:37  <Alberth> I thought so too :)
20:05:24  <Alberth> you end up with too much money anyway, so it doesn't matter much
20:06:22  <Black_Phoenix> I was interested in comparing railroad vs airplane prices for own amusement
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20:12:34  <Black_Phoenix> another question, what does affect town grows: people that travel from town, or in town, both, or neither?
20:13:52  *** `Fuco` [~dota.keys@] has quit [Quit: Quit]
20:14:51  <Alberth> no idea exactly, it depends on the climate at least
20:16:38  <frosch123> there is quite a long text on the wiki about city growth
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20:32:37  <ccfreak2k> Yes.
20:33:14  <ccfreak2k> In general, in-town bus service does more for growth than cross-country trains.
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20:34:41  <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20130 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3935]: Standard roadstops can also be left via manual depot orders.
20:39:50  <Black_Phoenix> ccfreak2k you're here too. what else should I find out about you
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20:47:50  <ccfreak2k> Of course I'm here.
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20:53:32  <functionofxy> does anyone have examples of terminus station that have multiple entrances, multiple exits? I'm having a lot of trouble building a 12-bay, 5-tile station w/ 4 entrances and three exits. I can post a screenshot.
20:54:22  <frosch123> it is better if not every exit is reachable from every platform
20:54:33  <Zuu> For not too much traffic a large junction with PBS signals should be enough.
20:54:43  <planetmaker> functionofxy:
20:54:47  <frosch123> do not build on 12-bay, but three 4-bays, and later merge them
20:55:15  <Zuu> Add some overpasses for far left to far right if you think that is necessary.
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20:56:05  <functionofxy> This station has to handle 45-60 trains come off a quadruple-track mainline
20:56:21  <functionofxy> I widen the right of way to 7 tracks b/c of some long bridges right before the station
20:56:33  <functionofxy>
20:59:29  <ccfreak2k> I've always found it odd that PBS signals turn green only for a split second.
20:59:57  <ccfreak2k> More "correct" behavious would cost more CPU time, though.
21:02:54  <functionofxy> did anyone take a look at my screen? I only have 28 tiles to work with, and there are a LOT of trains.
21:03:20  <planetmaker> functionofxy: then build one of the stations I linked you to.
21:03:26  <planetmaker> the lowest two
21:04:03  <Zuu> If you have a lot of trains at a steady flow you could divide the station into four sections without any load balancing.
21:05:09  <Zuu> You might want to try upstream to let some tracks switch over to the "wrong" side.
21:05:10  <functionofxy> Zuu, I don't want to do that b/c I'm worried about the loads. They will get messy, as the merges and splits to the branch lines are mostly at grade. There's no telling where the bulk of the trains might end up
21:05:36  <functionofxy> There's simply not enough room upstream to do pretty merges.
21:06:05  <functionofxy> I can post the entire map if you want
21:06:20  <frosch123> night
21:06:26  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:06:33  <andythenorth> good night
21:06:44  <Zuu> You have an extra tile at in sideways at the edge of the map and the maglev could be moved a bit to let you swap side of some tracks.
21:06:58  <planetmaker> functionofxy: you could for a starter make the bridges LRLRLR instead of LLLRRR
21:07:25  <Zuu> Exactly my point
21:07:31  <functionofxy> planetmaker, as I mentioned to Zuu, I have no real way of doing the crossovers. Things are too congested. I'm going to post my map.
21:07:57  <planetmaker> you need no more than two tile width for cross-overs
21:08:22  <planetmaker> and you don't have the space in front of the station
21:08:39  <Zuu> If you have the high congestion you say, then you probably have high flow at all entries and thus the need for propper load balancing with selection of all tracks is not needed.
21:08:45  *** Fuco [~dota.keys@] has quit [Quit: Quit]
21:08:51  <planetmaker> and you still didn't look at the stations I linked. They do what you want in 24 tiles
21:09:11  <functionofxy> I did look.
21:09:45  <functionofxy> I'm just not sure how I'm going to expand that to 10-12 bays in the pace I have.
21:09:45  <planetmaker> it fits exactly your space and station
21:09:59  <functionofxy> Perhaps I only need 8 bays. That would be nice
21:10:00  <planetmaker> just add another 4 tracks next to it. Two of those entry lanes
21:10:09  <planetmaker> it's a modular 4-station-track concept
21:10:32  <functionofxy>
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21:11:43  <planetmaker> oh, you have all the space for implementing LRLRLR before the bridges. Just don't put the depots there
21:11:49  <Zuu> The tunnel you have there before the bridges could be removed and that track could bridge over and enter in the mibddle of the reverse track.
21:13:32  <functionofxy> I'm going to try planetmaker's station, if it doesn't work, then lrlrlrlr
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21:14:19  <planetmaker> functionofxy: is the maglev also yours?
21:14:26  <planetmaker> Then give yourself some breathing space.
21:14:36  <planetmaker> Move them up the 3 or 4 tiles possible
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21:14:53  <ccfreak2k> I like how all the industries are crammed into one corner.
21:14:55  <functionofxy> and just deal with the longer bridges
21:15:26  <Zuu> Btw, which AIs do you play against?
21:15:33  <functionofxy> this a scenario done by purno
21:15:39  <functionofxy> I'm new to this...
21:16:01  <functionofxy> I just picked admiralai and pathzilla
21:16:19  <functionofxy> I introduced them late in the game so I could build the rail system for resources
21:16:27  <functionofxy> and they could take care of the annoying cities
21:17:33  <Zuu> I was just wondering as I couldn't tell from their building behaviour.
21:18:12  <functionofxy> they are really messy
21:18:20  <functionofxy> take a look at some of those inter-city roads
21:18:38  <Zuu> All my AIs are fairly easy to identify at least for me who knows what too look for. :-)
21:20:04  <Zuu> With the amounts of AIs that all wants their share of these big cities it is no surprise that it becomes a mess out of it.
21:20:26  <Black_Phoenix> Is there a place I can see information on how my trains are following schedules, all in same window? Instead of opening timetable for every train I want to see?
21:21:26  <Zuu> Not as far as I know.
21:22:29  <ccfreak2k> Black_Phoenix, no.
21:23:01  *** [hta]specx [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:23:10  <ccfreak2k> Another useful feature would be to set a series of trains that have the exact same configuration and orders/timetable to have start dates set at regular intervals.
21:23:26  <ccfreak2k> It's time consuming to calculate the start dates for a fleet of vehicles.
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21:26:31  <marioxcc> hi, i'm looking for a fully free (as in freedom) transport simulator
21:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you're free to transport any simulator
21:26:55  <marioxcc> last time i looked openttd required propietary data files from the propietary game
21:27:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there's replacement sets meanwhile
21:27:21  <Zuu> marioxcc: That's no longer the case
21:27:24  <Eddi|zuHause> if you use the windows installer, it offers to download them
21:27:30  <marioxcc> i'm at GNU/Linux
21:27:40  <Zuu> OpenGFX + OpenSFX give you graphics and sounds to play OpenTTD.
21:27:42  <Eddi|zuHause> then read the website
21:27:45  <marioxcc> ok thanks
21:27:46  <marioxcc> :)
21:28:01  <marioxcc> i used to be a simutrans fan long long ago, but i just realized it's propietary software :(
21:28:20  <Zuu> simutrans is afik open source
21:28:21  <marioxcc> so here i'm going to look at openttd, thanks
21:28:25  * Rubidium wonders how long ago marioxcc looked
21:28:39  <planetmaker> :-) sounds like looong time
21:28:41  <marioxcc> Rubidium: when i knew nothing about copyright & free software licensing
21:29:01  <marioxcc> simutrans is nethier open source nor free software, because it don't allows modification and commercial didstribution
21:29:34  <Eddi|zuHause> it's freeware
21:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and i think it was opensourced later
21:29:54  <Rubidium> and the sources are open, you're just not free to do whatever you want to do with it
21:30:06  <devilsadvocate> is it possible to do an incremental build on the openttd tree?
21:30:09  <Rubidium> although neither are you free to do whatever you want to do with OpenTTD's sources
21:30:21  <ccfreak2k> So it's open source but not "free software."
21:30:38  <Rubidium> devilsadvocate: depending on how you build OpenTTD... yes and no
21:30:40  <ccfreak2k> You know, like Free Tibet.
21:30:47  <marioxcc> ccfreak2k: it isn't open source
21:30:56  <devilsadvocate> Rubidium, i'm using GNU make (not VS)
21:30:58  <marioxcc> it don't allows modification, open source requires the right to modify and sell
21:31:10  <planetmaker> devilsadvocate: did you try?
21:31:35  <planetmaker> or asked differently: how do you think make works?
21:31:38  <Eddi|zuHause> marioxcc: that heavily depends on your definition on "openness"
21:31:53  <ccfreak2k> Exactly.
21:31:54  <Zuu> marioxcc: Neither do GPL allow selling of software.
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21:31:57  <marioxcc> it do
21:32:05  <marioxcc> you can sell GPL'ed software
21:32:16  <Zuu> You can charge for distribution
21:32:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i consider "open" already when you're able to view the source and do local modifications
21:32:25  <devilsadvocate> planetmaker, afaict the last time i used incremental building there was some wierdness in the configure script, hrmm.. i think i was using cmake
21:32:49  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: local modifications are (IMNSLO) fair-use
21:32:49  <devilsadvocate> yeah, it was using cmake, not make
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21:33:01  <planetmaker> so nothing which the build system supports
21:33:03  <marioxcc> open source is defined in:, it requires modification as well as right to sell the software
21:33:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: the only thing that the GPL enforces is that you may not charge fees for distributing the SOURCE above actual material value
21:33:10  <marioxcc> well, anyway i'm doing offtopic
21:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: it does not forbid selling the binaries
21:33:37  <glx> you still need to provide the source
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21:33:45  <ccfreak2k> X-chat does that.
21:33:49  <marioxcc> glx: it don't forbides selling
21:34:05  <glx> ccfreak2k: win32 part is not open
21:34:11  <marioxcc> you must provide the source code of course, because the GPL is a copyleft license
21:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you only have to give the source to people who paid for the binaries before
21:34:26  <ccfreak2k> glx, there's not a whole lot of change, other than just getting it to build and run.
21:35:05  <glx> you don't know windows API :)
21:35:15  <devilsadvocate> Eddi|zuHause, with gpl if you give/sell the binary you _have_ to give them the sources, and cant say how they can or cannot use the sources/binaries (ie, you cant give it to them under an NDA)
21:35:20  <ccfreak2k> Nope. I only know libogc, and by extension some POSIX.
21:35:35  <glx> windows is not POSIX
21:35:37  <Eddi|zuHause> devilsadvocate: so?
21:35:47  <glx> many things have to be rewritten
21:36:24  <Rubidium> marioxcc: depending on interpretation of that definition OpenTTD (GPL) isn't open source either; it DOES discrimate against people/groups wanting to use the code as their own without properly crediting and redistributing the source if/when they distribute binaries based upon the code (so it violates 5 & 6)
21:36:25  <devilsadvocate> Eddi|zuHause, so usually, 'selling' GPL code is usually not very profitable, since the first person you sell it to can legally give it away for free
21:36:49  <Eddi|zuHause> devilsadvocate: but it doesn't forbid you to try
21:36:51  <ccfreak2k> glx, I know Windows "isn't POSIX."
21:36:53  <devilsadvocate> :)
21:36:57  <devilsadvocate> yeah, it doesnt
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21:37:15  <Rubidium> devilsadvocate: appstores?!?
21:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause> devilsadvocate: and, you don't have to give the source with the binary... only if they actually ask for it
21:37:16  <marioxcc> Rubidium: that's an unvalid interpretation, OSI agreees to give credit
21:37:38  <marioxcc> anyway, I dislike open source because it misses the point:
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21:37:57  <marioxcc> i support free software as in freedom
21:38:22  <planetmaker> freedom as to do or let do what?
21:38:38  <planetmaker> gpl is also not 'free' - by some definitions
21:39:04  <marioxcc> i use the GNU definition of free software
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21:39:35  <planetmaker> which in v3 is not supported by the OSI
21:39:42  <planetmaker> or at least not recommended
21:39:49  <glx> we don't use v3
21:39:55  <planetmaker> I know.
21:41:25  <planetmaker> and I'm quite happy about it
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21:42:06  <marioxcc> gpl 3 protects user againsting thing like tivoization
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21:42:29  <marioxcc> so free software always keeps free in practice not only in theory
21:43:34  <planetmaker> the 2nd last sentence at least contains two words which I don't parse and one or more grammar errors
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21:43:49  <Rubidium> marioxcc: the point is... it is impossible to not "discriminate" someone when talking about "freedom". A gives a binary to B (which is a freedom of A), but if B does have the freedom to ask (require) A for the sources. In the case A should have the freedom to reject that, but then B doesn't have the freedom to require it... as such there is no "full freedom" and you'll always be "discriminating" someone
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21:44:19  <marioxcc> Rubidium: one thing is freedom, another is power
21:44:29  <marioxcc> if you can control what your own computer do, it's freedom
21:44:37  <marioxcc> if you can control what your client computer do, it's power
21:45:20  <ccfreak2k> Rubidium, in other words, having some freedoms requires restricting other freedoms.
21:45:29  <Rubidium> exactly
21:45:45  <marioxcc> no really
21:46:00  <marioxcc> if you can restric other right's, it's power, not freedom
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21:46:21  <planetmaker> the freedom is always the freedom of the one thinking differently
21:46:32  <Rubidium> like "the right to remain silent" (freedom to not self incriminate); it removes the "freedom" of the justice department to torture you to get the answer/self incrimination
21:47:03  <marioxcc> Rubidium: it's a nosesnse, if justice department can torture you to get the answer is not a freedom
21:47:04  <marioxcc> is a power
21:47:15  <marioxcc> because they are acting in other's rights, not on their owns
21:47:31  <marioxcc> just as a king have the power to say people what to do
21:47:32  <ccfreak2k> But they cant, because laws restrict that freedome.
21:47:46  <marioxcc> ccfreak2k: ¿why do you say it's a freedom?
21:47:54  <ccfreak2k> Making us (the citizens) free of torture.
21:48:04  <marioxcc> from ours perspective
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21:48:06  <marioxcc> is our freedom
21:48:14  <marioxcc> but from the perspective of the FBI, it's a power, say
21:48:32  <Zuu> Isn't it their freedome to choose method?
21:48:40  <marioxcc> no, it's their power
21:48:47  <marioxcc> because they don't act on their own
21:48:56  <marioxcc> act on someone else
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21:49:55  <Zuu> Anyway if I invest 10k in making some random software, why shouldn't it be my freedome to choose how it is distributed?
21:50:20  <planetmaker> because you then exercise 'bad' power, Zuu :-P
21:50:20  <Rubidium> so... if I act on my own it would be a freedom to be judge, jury and executioner?
21:50:41  <marioxcc> Zuu: because you chose to use 10K
21:50:50  <marioxcc> not people
21:51:19  <planetmaker> marioxcc: so... what should he live on otherwise?
21:51:42  <marioxcc> by using a free license
21:51:46  <Rubidium> planetmaker: the freedom to kill other people as means to sustain him/herself! :)
21:51:48  <marioxcc> there are lots of free software licenses
21:51:51  <marioxcc> free as in freedom
21:52:08  <marioxcc> Rubidium: i think you undestand my point about freedom/power, but you just want to discuss, ¿true?
21:52:17  <planetmaker> marioxcc: but he spent money to develop it. And if it's only his time it took him. He has to get value for that investment.
21:52:27  <planetmaker> How shall he do that? By giving it away for free? Hardly...
21:52:35  <Zuu> Personally, I think it is up to each individuall author to decide what license to use and how to distribute software or anything else. If you want to promote free/open software, then contribute to that kind of software but don't complain at people who make other choises.
21:52:52  <marioxcc> planetmaker: i talk about FREEDOM not FREE price
21:53:07  <marioxcc> there is plenty of commercial free software
21:53:30  <planetmaker> marioxcc: yes. and if I write a programme, it's my freedom not to disclose source or restrict its use
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21:54:05  <marioxcc> planetmaker: if you distribute it you must give the source
21:54:11  <planetmaker> no
21:54:17  <glx> depends on the chosen licence
21:54:19  <Zuu> Not if you are the original owner fo the code.
21:54:36  <Zuu> As original owner of something you may ever double license code if you want.
21:54:39  <marioxcc> planetmaker: if you can restrict other people, it's a power, not freedom
21:54:41  <planetmaker> I'm not obliged to do anything with my own intelectual property
21:54:59  <marioxcc> intelectual property is just a propaganda term
21:55:09  <glx> no it's reality
21:55:18  <marioxcc> here is an explanin, for example
21:56:41  <planetmaker> your link doesn't support your argument
21:57:01  * Rubidium wonders whether ignoring marioxcc is a power or a freedom
21:57:01  <Zuu> Eg. if I for example like OOS/FOSS and want to support it, then it is my choice to GPL the software, but it should remain my choise as the author of the work.
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21:57:32  <planetmaker> Rubidium: both
21:57:51  * planetmaker agrees with Zuu
21:58:00  <marioxcc> Zuu: copyright is an atifical permission for the author
21:58:04  <marioxcc> it isn't a natural right
21:58:15  <marioxcc> bt an artificial one for the sake of the users
21:58:25  <marioxcc> part of the history is here:
21:58:39  <ccfreak2k> Actually, it's for the sake of the author.
21:59:00  <marioxcc> ccfreak2k: yes, curretly is
21:59:15  <marioxcc> but it shouldn't be, in the begin it was not
21:59:38  <marioxcc> it's on the original US constitution for example, a chunk is quoted on that page
22:00:08  <Rubidium> that reminds me of the (Dutch) Pirate Party coming in here trying to please us by reducing copyright to 5 years and completely removing copyright for non-commercial releases...
22:00:08  <glx> US constitution doesn't apply to me
22:00:13  <planetmaker> copyright was always about restricting user rights and giving authors control over their... intelectual property
22:00:28  <planetmaker> and these things pre-cede the foundation of the US
22:00:41  *** Sacro1 [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-42-4.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:00:48  <marioxcc> well, i don't want to discuss
22:00:59  <marioxcc> if you want gates or jobs to be your master, is your problem
22:01:12  <glx> that's unrelated
22:01:13  <marioxcc> i don't, i want freedom on my computer
22:01:15  * planetmaker generally dislikes fundamentalism
22:01:26  <planetmaker> Whatever colour or aim they propagate
22:01:43  <Rubidium> marioxcc: but... are you completely free on your computer with all that data being stored "somewhere"?
22:02:00  <marioxcc> Rubidium: i don't understand
22:02:06  <marioxcc> ¿somewhere?
22:02:18  <glx> and your computer uses licenced material, like CPU, GPU, ...
22:02:25  <Zuu> If you want freedome in your computer, then I suggest supporting authors that do release their source code as open sourrce etc. rather than atacking the system or even wores bypassing the system by illegaly downloading stuff.
22:02:26  <planetmaker> evil!
22:02:32  <Rubidium> marioxcc: google, ISP, swift, ...
22:02:50  <Rubidium> not even talking about those internet filters
22:02:56  <glx> even BIOS is not free
22:03:06  <marioxcc> Zuu: laws made for restric freedoms have no moral autorithy
22:03:21  <marioxcc> i have to obey them because it's a law, not because i think they are right
22:03:31  <Rubidium> ALL laws restrict *someone's* freedom
22:03:33  *** Black_Phoenix [~phoenix@] has quit []
22:03:33  <glx> so you prefer anarchy
22:03:39  <marioxcc> no
22:03:42  <planetmaker> sure
22:03:50  <ccfreak2k> Zuu, indeed, downloading proprietary software in that fashion only shows that you still desire their software.
22:03:53  <marioxcc> go hell people, i just come here chating of free software
22:03:59  <planetmaker> freedom always ends there where it impacts the freedom of another person
22:04:03  <Rubidium> or said differently: name me one law that doesn't restrict someone's freedom
22:04:13  <marioxcc> and you just flame me because of that, you think i must be a slave of what authors says
22:04:14  <marioxcc> go hell
22:04:19  <marioxcc> :(
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22:04:32  <planetmaker> fundamentalist
22:04:56  <ccfreak2k> And now back to our reguarly scheduled programming consisting mostly of semi-comatose clock-watching.
22:05:02  <Rubidium> no... you come here to preach your (according to multiple people) incorrect ideas
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22:09:36  <Zuu> Or we can plan the super-cool plugin system that everyone wants. :-p
22:09:40  <ccfreak2k> I want to buy this four pack of tickets to the state fair, but I need to find three other people that would be going.
22:11:10  <Zuu> Sounds like a task for tt-forums off topic forum.
22:11:13  <Eddi|zuHause> hhm... is the fundamentalist gone yet?
22:11:27  <Zuu> Yep he left 5 minutes ago.
22:11:33  <ccfreak2k> Zuu, I really meant three people I know.
22:11:36  <glx> anyway a user is free to not use a software if he doesn't like the license ;)
22:11:42  <ccfreak2k> :(
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22:12:31  <Zuu> glx: Indeed
22:13:05  <Zuu> But that's not the same thing as forcing all software to have a Free Software license.
22:13:53  <glx> that's just a stupid idea
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22:16:09  <Zuu> If more users took their right to choose software based on the license they could actually affect the supply of softwares, but now they just whine about the price / lack of freedom of software.
22:16:46  <Rubidium> it's not the single users that are the problem
22:16:46  *** Markk is now known as Markk^
22:16:47  *** Markk_ is now known as Markk
22:17:13  <Zuu> Oh yea, it is never my fault, it's always someone else that sholud do things right. :-D
22:17:24  <Rubidium> it's the large corporate world where the person that has to implement stuff has nothing to say about what to use and the prik that runs the company tells what software to use
22:18:53  <Rubidium> Zuu: if 100 people would say: we're not going to use Windows anymore they'd likely be lieing because they need it for their work
22:19:26  <Zuu> True
22:19:27  <glx> or their games
22:19:33  <Rubidium> and they'd be using the stuff they're familiar with because they aren't brought up to think for themselves
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