Log for #openttd on 18th October 2010:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:02  <GhostlyDeath> Then I go to #openttd and complain that my train breakdowns break my OpenTTD CPU
00:00:07  <GhostlyDeath> that runs at 1 instruction a minute
00:00:21  <avdg> thats a serious fast cpu :)
00:00:37  <GhostlyDeath> Then there's a 30 minutes of arguing until somebody says that it's in the options menu
00:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not
00:01:00  <GhostlyDeath> then 30 minutes of everyone insulting each other which then leads to a conversation about pizza toppings
00:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it's in the difficulty menu
00:01:21  <GhostlyDeath> Options as in difficulty and advanced
00:01:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't ever remember a discussion about pizza toppings in here :p
00:01:52  <GhostlyDeath> Let's start it
00:02:32  <Eddi|zuHause> "(new reply notification emails don't always get to my inbox, please let me know if you think it has happened)" <-- what? how? by email? :p
00:03:04  <[twisti]> looks like i started a fun argument there :p
00:03:11  <[twisti]> well im off to bed, night guys
00:03:13  <GhostlyDeath> Cya
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00:05:04  <Eddi|zuHause> so... we have the biweekly "please implement map rotation" topic...
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05:36:32  <planetmaker> good morning
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05:47:37  <Bobbysepp> Good morrow!
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06:03:55  <Terkhen> good morning
06:07:03  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
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06:10:42  <andythenorth_> morning
06:18:16  <planetmaker> moin andythenorth_
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06:34:41  * andythenorth_ has an answer of sorts
06:34:59  * planetmaker has questions
06:35:17  <andythenorth_> yay
06:35:19  <andythenorth_> see if they match?
06:35:38  <planetmaker> ok ;-)
06:35:54  <planetmaker> let's start big: what's the sense of the universe? ;-)
06:38:04  <andythenorth_> to provoke questions
06:42:12  <andythenorth_>
06:45:02  <andythenorth_> ^ proposal.  Think the items in it could be broken into small chunks, not requiring one enormous change
06:45:14  <andythenorth_> think it also builds on current system instead of trying to overturn it
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06:47:00  <andythenorth_> the key thing is that groups don't do any magic
06:47:59  <andythenorth_> i.e. they stuff is only changed on the vehicles in a group when player chooses explicitly to do so
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07:49:15  <dihedral> morning :-)
07:49:20  <dihedral> planetmaker, any success ?
07:53:42  <planetmaker> not tried yet
07:58:09  <dihedral> pffft ;-)
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08:51:06  <Keiya> Toyland's bubbles need to be poppable.
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08:57:10  <planetmaker> tey do pop
08:57:26  <planetmaker> just on their own
08:57:36  <Keiya> But I can't poke them to make them pop! :P
08:57:53  <Keiya> anyway, it's keiyasleeptime
08:58:00  <planetmaker> OpenTTD is not a packaging-bubble-pop-application ;-)
08:58:13  <planetmaker> that's something for your smartphone :-P
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08:58:27  <Keiya> I don't have a smartphone :P
08:58:39  <Keiya> My phone is decidedly dumb and I like it that way
08:59:22  <Keiya> Anyway, I clearly have a patch to try to hack together when I wake up
08:59:25  <Keiya> :P
08:59:31  * dihedral read 'poopable'
08:59:53  <Keiya> They should be that too in case a child eats one
09:00:18  <Keiya> But yes, keiya.sleep()
09:00:20  <Keiya> nini
09:00:47  <peter1138> But it's 10am!
09:01:13  <planetmaker> g'night then
09:02:37  <Markk> Breakfast break o/
09:02:52  <Markk> peter1138: Where do you live?
09:07:05  <dihedral> by the way, planetmaker - you are the authority in this channel :-P
09:07:11  <dihedral> more so than last week :-D
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09:44:05  <Rubidium> dihedral: peter1138 is the master of this channel...
09:45:56  <dihedral> not according to xiong :-P
09:46:15  <Rubidium> well, he is by no way the authoritive entity on this subject
09:46:17  <dihedral> if you do not go by planetmaker's definitions of NORTH you will be ignored - :-D
09:46:28  <dihedral> ^^
09:46:47  <dihedral> or he might never return, due to the social interaction in here :-P
09:46:58  <Rubidium> /msg chanserv info #openttd <- that's IMO the authoritive entity on the subject of channel master
09:48:11  <Rubidium> well, then what's planetmaker's definition of north?
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09:50:25  <norbert79> Good day
09:50:41  <peter1138> I RULE YOU
09:50:43  <peter1138> MWHAHAHAHAH
09:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> close your eyes, then you see what you rule.
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09:52:07  <dihedral>
09:52:22  <norbert79> Oh my, I came in in a bad moment, shall I leave you alone guys? :D
09:52:33  <norbert79> I can also close the door if you want :)
09:53:06  <Rubidium> norbert79: only when you can tell whether the food in your cafeteria is better, worse or equal to the food at IBM TRL
09:53:22  <norbert79> TRL?
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09:54:38  <norbert79> Rubidium: TRL? Besides, our location has no cafeteria, but some kitchen with very basic layouts. Only 3rd party cafeterias are available here
09:54:58  <Rubidium> norbert79: yes, TRL. You don't know that location?
09:55:09  <norbert79> Rubidium: US one?
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09:55:16  <Rubidium> norbert79: no, it's EMEA as well
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09:55:33  <norbert79> Rubidium: No, cant recall, we are calling them by their location name
09:55:40  * Rubidium wonders how long it takes to type
09:56:18  <norbert79> Rubidium: Ah, Tokyio... I am mostly familiar with Delviery Centers, not Research labs...
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09:57:46  <norbert79> Rubidium: You should not forget, that IBM employes around 400.000 people, most of them in India, so don't wonder, if I don't always know every place within IBM :)
10:00:10  <Rubidium> but... it's the same division
10:00:15  <norbert79> Not at all
10:00:29  <Rubidium> it's also IBM EMEA ;)
10:00:35  <norbert79> Research has nothing to do with Global Delviery Services
10:00:56  <norbert79> No, TRL Means IBM Research - Tokyo, which then was renamed to plain TRL
10:01:13  <norbert79> Btw the EMEA term is not anymore used as an official term within IBM :)
10:01:35  <norbert79> despite it's usage
10:01:51  <Rubidium> then they should cut it from their rDNS
10:01:55  <norbert79> (because many businesses are still using the experession of EMEA)
10:02:16  <norbert79> Rubidium: That's something which is outside of my authority or knowledge :)
10:02:47  <norbert79> besides, let's not bore the others with such stuff, shall we? :)
10:10:08  <norbert79> Won't even dare ask, how you guys are, since it's damn monday :)
10:10:26  <Rubidium> does cold count?
10:10:35  <norbert79> It does... How bad is in your area?
10:11:06  <Rubidium> cold enough to consider turning on the heating
10:11:30  <norbert79> Same here... It's around 8-10°C, and it's raining since last night
10:12:12  <Rubidium> apparantly it was -3.6°C tonight
10:13:34  <norbert79> wow
10:14:01  <Rubidium> the first time it was freezing since, well winter ended
10:14:38  <norbert79> Time to put on the winter tires
10:15:19  * Rubidium can never be bothered about that, but then... are there winter tires for bicycles?
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10:21:46  <peter1138> Yes, mountain bikers use them all year round.
10:21:50  <norbert79> Rubidium: Don't know... If you don't own a car replacing the tires is not something you should be worried for
10:22:01  <norbert79> peter1138: There are? This is new news for me
10:23:32  <Noldo> using one just in front wheel is a good start
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10:24:26  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the use for that??
10:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause> if at all, it should be the back wheel...
10:25:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have too much braking power on the front wheel, it throws you over
10:25:49  <Noldo> you really don't want to be in a situtation where the back wheel has traction to propel you forward, but the front wheel doesn't have traction to steer
10:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause> who cares about steering when you can't brake?
10:26:47  <Noldo> when you can't brake the thing you care most about is the ability to steer
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10:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> if i have to trade between braking and steering, i'd take braking any time...
10:29:17  <peter1138> I just don't drive in snow...
10:29:59  <Noldo> well it's not just steering, when the front wheel loses grip you will fall
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10:30:34  <Noldo> and the sliping rear tire also gives you an early warning to be more careful
10:30:45  <peter1138> Oh, you're talking about cycling...
10:31:39  <Noldo> :)
10:32:41  <peter1138>
10:32:46  <peter1138> Wonder if they're legal in the UK :)
10:34:28  <norbert79> peter1138: These remark me on the first tires which were built back in ~1900... Going back to roots? :)
10:35:01  <peter1138> "These remark me on"?
10:35:04  <norbert79> peter1138: On the other hand I don't know if these would be legal, probably during snowing time only
10:35:09  <norbert79>
10:35:12  <norbert79> these
10:35:19  <peter1138> Do you mean "These remind me of" ?
10:35:33  <norbert79> peter1138: It's monday, what do you expect? :)
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10:43:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20988 /trunk/src/network/network.cpp:
10:43:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4167]: no need to send packets and possibly get the connection closed
10:43:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: when the next call also tries to send the packets and then closes the
10:43:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: connection. Especially if the former frees a structure that the latter assumes
10:43:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: to be still there
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11:11:38  <norbert79> Anyone knows how to find a colour on a picture within GIMP?
11:11:48  <planetmaker> colour picker tool?
11:11:58  <norbert79> Nah, I would like to that in reverse
11:11:58  <planetmaker> O possibly
11:12:11  <planetmaker> eh?
11:12:11  <norbert79> I know the colour, but I don't know which area that might have it
11:12:20  <planetmaker> shift-o then
11:12:34  <norbert79> what does it do?
11:12:42  <norbert79> aaaah
11:12:44  <Rubidium> make one pixel that colour and then select every pixel with that same colour?
11:12:45  <norbert79> Ok, thanks, will try that
11:13:23  <norbert79> Rubidium: Actually I am just veryfying if the palette I have downloaded for GIMP really converte3d my colours to those colours, which are not for 'Openttd used' colours, like theat purple one
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11:14:53  <norbert79> I worked a bit on my condo sprite, and just wanted to move on with it, and realized, that sooner or later I have to convert the colours to OpenTTD palette
11:15:12  <xiong> Hi all.
11:15:18  <norbert79> Hello xiong
11:15:44  <xiong> norbert79, 'sooner or later', ha ha. I'm laughing with you, not at you. Been in the same place.
11:15:59  <xiong> If you're lucky, you will not have to start from scratch.
11:16:11  <Rubidium> and then the question comes, do you want to use the sane DOS palette or the somewhat less sane Windows palette?
11:16:32  <xiong> I find it essential, when doing indexed-color work, to start with the final palette.
11:16:34  <norbert79> Rubidium: So far, luckily, the colours I have chosen are fine...
11:16:54  <norbert79> xiong: I prefer RGB based work first, and then convertion
11:17:06  <xiong> norbert79, If you do anything anti-aliased, that's risky.
11:17:21  <norbert79> xiong: You cannot perform a lot of changes using indexed... Not really, check my entry in tt-forum:
11:17:43  <norbert79> xiong:
11:17:57  <xiong> Yes, there are issues with a lot of stuff wrt indexed color.
11:18:17  <norbert79> xiong: If Use the plaette conversion on this one it still looks quite nice
11:18:24  <planetmaker> indeed, norbert79 it's quite risky to start with RGB.
11:18:31  <planetmaker> at least it doesn't save work
11:18:51  <norbert79> planetmaker: No, but lot of transformations and options are only available with RGB only
11:19:01  <planetmaker> are there?
11:19:09  <planetmaker> I guess I never used them then :-)
11:19:14  <norbert79> Gaussian blurring
11:19:20  <norbert79> for e.g
11:19:29  <planetmaker> you can convert the image back and forth
11:19:56  <xiong> Um, do Hungarians not free-license their work?
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11:20:16  <norbert79> xiong: Kinda weird question. What do you mean?
11:20:23  <planetmaker> they never do. They freed Eastern Europe, now they don't need free licenses. :-P
11:20:36  <norbert79> planetmaker: You are such a rude one :D
11:20:43  <xiong> Ah. That could be an issue.
11:20:45  * planetmaker hides :-)
11:20:50  * norbert79 seeks
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11:20:58  <xiong> Did you ever solve the penntowns license issue, planetmaker ?
11:21:13  <norbert79> planetmaker: You have started it, now bare with it :D :D
11:21:14  <planetmaker> I never received anything nor do I have anything to resolve
11:21:42  <planetmaker> If you want to share your work, xiong you should do that.
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11:21:44  <xiong> I emailed you via the 'email' link in forum. No go?
11:22:14  <planetmaker> I'll check my spam box
11:22:17  <xiong> Actually, planetmaker, I consider the work to be equally creditable to both of us.
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11:24:17  <norbert79> planetmaker: - Updated the entry, last picture is the new sprite after indexed transformation, using Windows palette
11:24:19  <xiong> Well, norbert79, fwiw, I think the buildings you've drawn look very nice. I especially like the shorter, brown one.
11:24:40  <norbert79> xiong: Thats an example of the OpenGFX... Not mine, just used as reference
11:24:55  * xiong facepalms
11:25:19  <xiong> Both are good buildings; you can take it as a compliment that I saw them as belonging in the same set.
11:25:28  <planetmaker> no e-mail
11:25:35  <norbert79> the left one is a typical soviet, 10 storied-high condo/flat, first buuilt in the 1970's
11:25:45  <planetmaker> and still: just upload it to bananas.
11:25:47  <dihedral> would be nice if there was a redirect from\d+) to
11:25:58  <planetmaker> indeed :-)
11:26:07  <xiong> I just have a preference for old-fashioned stuff. As far as the tall one goes, I'd stick with the white roof. Much better.
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11:26:54  <norbert79> xiong: That part was the unfisnihsed one, and this last one is still unfinished... I have to duplicate this one, since these buildings never came in one, but always as two...
11:27:05  <Rubidium> dihedral: well, suggest it at the appropriate place and maybe the lief sysop will take it into consideration
11:27:15  <xiong> planetmaker, I realize you don't see a block where I do. That's why I sent it to you. Why not PM your email to me and I'll try again?
11:27:57  <norbert79> xiong: Look for hungarian pictures, and look for "panelház" in google, you will see what I mean... My plan is creating a total Twon replacement set based on hungarian buildings...
11:28:20  <xiong> norbert79, I would support Cyrillic grafitti but I'm afraid that realistic-sized graffiti would be too small to see.
11:28:48  <norbert79> xiong: We don't use cyrillic characters
11:28:55  <xiong> One of the great tragedies of my life was the burning of Wilson Barn -- an L maint barn in Chicago.
11:28:58  <norbert79> xiong: Our language is based on the latin characters
11:29:05  <xiong> norbert79, Pity.
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11:31:25  <xiong> I had planned to make a photo study of Wilson Barn, including the Wilson stop and the two immediately to either side. It seemed like a perfect modeling project: Perfect prototype justification for incredibly tight track radius, the complexity of a barn and its yard, the rationality of turning trains end-for-end. A perfect shelf layout -- the model would fit right into a corner, with the long leg up one wall.
11:31:32  <xiong> Then, the barn burned.
11:33:00  <xiong> Oh, and one of the really cool parts is that one leg ran past a local cemetery; the wall was covered with layers of graffiti, some quite complex, all extremely authentic. Yet the barn itself, elevated and inaccessible, was almost unchanged, except for hard weathering, since its construction 100 years previously.
11:33:31  <planetmaker> <xiong> planetmaker, I realize you don't see a block where I do. <-- and I don't see why you don't even want to give it a try
11:33:58  <planetmaker> you finished it and you should cash in on the merrit. Not me
11:34:18  <xiong> No point in debating it, planetmaker. I smell yet another place where, the harder I try to explain what to me is clear, the angrier everyone else gets. I'll take it as a 'no' and move on.
11:35:03  <planetmaker> I don't understand. You can upload files. You can e-mail files. So why not upload it at a particular site?
11:35:51  <planetmaker> why do you need someone else to do that for you while it means the same work for you to e-mail it or to publish it?
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11:37:13  <Rubidium> because officially publishing implies some sort of support?
11:39:16  <planetmaker> well... I do. But if I upload it, it will be one of many entries in bananas which I meanwhile own
11:40:01  <rril> I want to translate from English to Hebrew the game. Who do I contact?
11:40:05  <planetmaker> Each of those needs either me to update it or action on your part to (also) assign another account
11:40:19  <planetmaker> rril, the translation manager
11:40:48  <planetmaker>
11:40:53  <rril> Thanks
11:41:00  <norbert79> mil: Hebrew is already avaialble in the game, you might want to send your application for translatior, and start revieweing already present translations
11:41:08  <planetmaker> do you have already an account at openttd, rril ?
11:41:24  <planetmaker> If not, you better create one and mention the account name in the e-mail
11:41:35  <planetmaker> then you'll be assigned that language
11:41:50  <rril> i have
11:41:57  <xiong> planetmaker, Do you get the point about my feeling that this is your work as well as mine? I don't ask if you agree; merely if you understand that this is how I see it?
11:42:44  <planetmaker> In parts I do. Even though I think I only helped you through the language
11:44:04  <planetmaker> I've also already added people to projects whom I think were great help to me and who then were surprised that they found themselves as co-authors ;-)
11:44:32  <xiong> Okay, good. And I understand and respect that you disagree. So, if you will not lay claim to your share of the credit, I will not claim anything at all.
11:45:37  <planetmaker> sounds stupid to me
11:45:45  <planetmaker> or childish. Or both
11:45:49  <norbert79> Me too, like you would do planetmaker a favor...
11:46:01  <norbert79> where You asking for help
11:46:03  <xiong> No, not at all.
11:46:26  <xiong> Rather, it would be presumptuous for me to go forward now in any direction.
11:46:38  <planetmaker> how so?
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11:46:48  <xiong> That's my feeling; and I think I do no harm if I do nothing.
11:46:51  <norbert79> xiong: I think Openttd already offers all resources doing so xiong
11:47:52  <planetmaker> xiong, you do no harm. But you waste all your effort. And actually also mine which I put into helping you
11:48:30  <planetmaker> you did that with the signals. You do that with the translations. Well.
11:48:39  <xiong> Okay, so now I have said three things since I said, basically, I think going any further will produce nothing good and only stir up anger. I think I really have to promise to say nothing else about it.
11:48:54  <norbert79> planetmaker: If you want to be responsible for something, you have to make yourself familiar with that one thing, you would like to care for. But first you have to make sure, that you understand how that thing works, and not ask someone else to take responsibility for that new thing.
11:49:06  <norbert79> Eh, ment for xiong
11:49:10  <planetmaker> :-)
11:49:12  <norbert79> xiong: ^^
11:49:16  <planetmaker> I do agree, though
11:49:24  <xiong> ^^^^^
11:49:39  <norbert79> xiong: ^^ means "look up"
11:50:21  <xiong> norbert79, ^^^^^^^
11:52:04  <dihedral> xiong, i like the image :)
11:52:17  <dihedral> bigsig-001.png
11:52:34  <norbert79> dihedral: Deeplink, if I may ask? :)
11:52:45  <dihedral>
11:53:05  <dihedral> a wee bit big - but then that is the name of the project :-D
11:53:31  <norbert79> dihedral: Well, some may like it :)
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11:53:53  <dihedral> norbert79, you do not have to use it if you do not like the idea :-P
12:01:03  <dihedral> xiong, do you get that you rather annoy some people - i do not need you to agree, just do you understand that others may feel that way?
12:01:26  <dihedral> with 'others' i mean the vast majority taking part in your discussions
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12:23:25  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20989 /trunk/ (46 files in 3 dirs): -Change: make extra_grf's pcx files DOS palettes instead of converting them during compilation. Also fix misconverted sprite and some comments
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13:05:54  <Belugas> hello
13:06:00  <norbert79> hello Belugas
13:06:08  <planetmaker> moin Belugas
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13:09:47  <Belugas> hi both of ya
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13:21:31  <xiong> Does anybody understand the Rural Stations set well enough to explain the wide variety of shelters? In particular, I see no difference at all between Island and Outer. Confused!
13:23:16  * Belugas never used that set
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13:29:18  <xiong> It's not FIRS. Should I be using some other set of passenger stations? The Suburban Stations set seems broken and there is no Urban Set. I'm using the Industrial Stations Renewal Set and am quite happy with it.
13:31:18  <Yexo> just chose the set(s) which look best according to yourself
13:31:21  <xiong> FIRS readme is explicit about vehicle set compatibility but silent about station sets. ISRS rocks; Rural is okay. But I will go with whatever works.
13:31:51  <Yexo> station sets and industry sets have no compatibility issues
13:32:08  <Yexo> only a station set may lack special stations for some cargo types, but that doesn't make it incompatible
13:32:55  <xiong> Um. There are ISRS elements that appear to put more than one GA track in a tile. I suppose these are entirely non-functional, too. Would I be wrong to say that all station tiles are equivalent and have no gameplay effect?
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13:33:22  <Yexo> no
13:33:46  <planetmaker> actually yes.
13:33:51  <xiong> Well, that's a distinction that interests me.
13:34:01  <Yexo> hmm, ok, there are station tlies without rails
13:34:02  <planetmaker> Not all station tiles are equivalent. There are track and non-track tiles
13:34:29  <xiong> I see ISRS tiles that seem to be so much eye candy. I assume that I don't need a crane to load/unload steel.
13:34:47  <planetmaker> no. Just a place where the train can go.
13:34:53  <planetmaker> The looks is purely eye candy
13:34:56  <xiong> I did see the non-track tiles. I assume that putting one of those in the way of a train is bad news.
13:35:03  <Yexo> all tiles without a track are equivalent and all tiles with a track are also equivalent
13:35:09  <planetmaker> ^
13:35:49  <xiong> But then, I also see many tiles in the category of 'Classification Yard' and assume, too, that these have no actual effect -- they may look like track but can't pass trains. Y/n?
13:35:50  <norbert79> The eyecandy stuff gives the mood part, as an addition to the whole gameplay... That's the plus, which lot of games do not offer
13:36:06  <planetmaker> and yes, having non-track tiles in the way of a train is like no tracks... which will make the train fail to pass there
13:36:47  <planetmaker> xiong, they might allow trains. But just the same as other track tiles. Without the switches being operational
13:36:53  <planetmaker> But not sure anymroe
13:36:55  <planetmaker> *anymore
13:37:07  <xiong> I'm all for a good-looking station -- I absolutely love the detail -- but for me, form follows function and I don't want to make bad functional decisions while thinking I'm making only decisions of form.
13:37:36  <xiong> Well, I've got enough to go on. I was worried that each tile had a distinct function, or that some did.
13:38:04  <xiong> Or that I would have to account for every industry that might be serviced at a station, and so on.
13:38:27  <xiong> Thanks very much, guys.
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13:39:02  <xiong> Oh, and yeh, starting in 1850 *does* give the game more of an edge.
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13:42:42  * andythenorth_ used to make a lot of ISR complex stations
13:42:53  <andythenorth_> now I mostly just use half tiles from canadian stations
13:43:05  * andythenorth_ ponders rework of ISR
13:43:48  <norbert79> Oh well, 28 more years to the UNIX time-date problem...
13:45:20  <Mortomes|Work> Hah, it's not like anyone will still use UNIX timestamps by then, right? Right?
13:45:35  <Mortomes|Work> Right?! >.>
13:46:29  <norbert79> :D
13:46:45  <norbert79> Let's come back to this topiy in 10 years, and we will see
13:47:01  <norbert79> we will have additional 18 years after it to solve the issue
13:47:03  <norbert79> :)
13:47:40  <planetmaker> andythenorth_, the repo is up ;-)
13:47:53  <andythenorth_> I know :o
13:47:58  <andythenorth_> It needs some planning
13:48:06  <planetmaker> Might be that I got it from a certain someone
13:48:11  <andythenorth_> Also, I don't think I can do what I wanted to do
13:48:17  <andythenorth_> I dislike the ground tiles in ISR
13:48:31  <andythenorth_> I wanted to replace them, but they are comped into the graphics
13:48:38  <andythenorth_> I thought they'd be a separate tile :o
13:48:43  <Mortomes|Work> The one lesson we learn from history is that we never learn from history :P
13:49:21  <norbert79> Mortomes|Work: But making this assumption makes one think, that you do learn from history, by making this assumption
13:49:57  <norbert79> Mortomes|Work: So we do learn from history by stating, that what we learn from history, is that we never learn from it
13:50:16  * andythenorth_ flees this madness
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13:50:35  <norbert79> Madness....
13:50:57  <norbert79> (ok, somebody, please, do the punchline! :] )
13:54:45  <Mortomes|Work> Madness? This is openttd!
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14:07:42  * norbert79 watches Mortomes|Work kicking down a locomotive into a hole
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14:12:28  <dihedral> i hate this job ...
14:12:34  <norbert79> dihedral: Which one?
14:12:44  <dihedral> the one i currently have
14:12:53  <dihedral> :-P
14:12:57  <Belugas> the one he hates
14:13:02  * norbert79 takes his glasses, sits on a chair
14:13:08  <norbert79> Please, tell me about it more
14:13:23  * Belugas gives a not pad to norbert79
14:13:27  <Belugas> notepad
14:13:34  <Belugas> ho... and here's a pen
14:13:42  * norbert79 takes the biro
14:13:45  <norbert79> thank you
14:13:55  <norbert79> So, dihedral, first session, please, go on
14:14:36  <planetmaker> looool :-)
14:14:41  * norbert79 looks around his comfortable rustical office, only the ticking of the clock brakes the silence
14:15:47  <Belugas> clock? ticking? in this digital era? insatiny
14:16:25  <norbert79> Belugas: I like old things
14:16:39  <dihedral> Belugas, it's probably got a loudspeaker :-P
14:16:47  <Belugas> hehe
14:16:58  <norbert79> Belugas: It might be also only a holodeck simulation
14:17:04  * Mortomes|Work looks at the simulated fireplace.
14:17:12  <Belugas> [10:18] <norbert79> Belugas: I like old things  <--  he likes me!
14:17:16  <norbert79> Mortomes|Work: Cool graphics, eh?
14:19:20  * planetmaker wonders why Belugas refers to himself as 'thing' ;-)
14:19:40  <planetmaker> but I guess norbert79 has already a biro and is willing to listen to any problems ;-)
14:19:54  * norbert79 clears his glasses...
14:20:02  <norbert79> I am still here :}
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14:22:31  * norbert79 looks at his watch... Oh my, I wish every day would be this untroubled
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14:29:58  <planetmaker> @ports
14:29:58  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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14:31:16  <norbert79> so basically TCP-UDP 3978-3979
14:32:22  <Rubidium> for a properly configured firewall, i.e. one that allows UDP reply packets, you only need to configure UDP+TCP on 3979
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14:32:56  <Rubidium> as the rest is plain simple outbound (unless your firewall messes with it ofcourse)
14:34:22  <norbert79> yeah, some needs also configuring of outbound too
14:34:24  <planetmaker> it could block outbound
14:34:49  <Rubidium> but if outbound is blocked, then he shouldn't see the list of server in his game
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14:35:35  <Rubidium> which apparantly he can see. What makes it interesting is that, for "him", it apparantly works when OpenTTD's client has been getting the server list recently
14:36:21  <planetmaker> like some temporary open when traffic is requested...
14:36:42  <planetmaker> what packets is sent from a client when searching and what from a server when advertising?
14:36:59  <norbert79> I would say UDP
14:37:02  <planetmaker> maybe one type can open the port (for both protocols) and the other just doesn't trigger anything
14:37:42  <norbert79> you can also define port-triggering rules too
14:38:13  <Rubidium> planetmaker: the difference is that payload byte #3 is 0x00 for "searching" and 0x04 for "registering"
14:38:24  <dihedral> hehe upnp :-P
14:38:34  <planetmaker> not much of a difference.
14:38:48  <planetmaker> well. Still it's right that he needs to properly configure his FW ;-)
14:39:07  <planetmaker> as do I. Mine
14:39:12  <Rubidium> but, his client starting and getting the list making his server working is just mind boggling
14:39:40  <planetmaker> indeed.
14:39:50  <Rubidium> regardless, the 3978 port in the port-forwarding is totally pointless
14:40:01  <Rubidium> as it's the remote port, i.e. the port at the master server
14:40:18  <Rubidium> locally the port is randomly chosen out by the OS
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14:41:03  <Rubidium> thus the client uses most likely another "local" port than the server, actually it must if the two are able to be running at the same time
14:48:08  <planetmaker> so some magic happens there
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14:49:57  <Rubidium> planetmaker: exactly
14:50:07  <Rubidium> but... not in OpenTTD
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15:02:00  <planetmaker> well. He gets communication from the master server...
15:05:19  <dihedral> him with his server or him with his client?
15:06:38  <dihedral> his client might have the ip address of his server in the config, and thus appear in the lobby window when also querying the master server?
15:07:38  <Rubidium> I'm 99% sure it's still the old "failed to properly port-forward" story
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15:10:29  <planetmaker> probably, yes
15:10:51  <planetmaker> It's usually the case when people say "I did everything by the book" but not re-iterating everything in the book ;-)
15:11:00  <planetmaker> (in their own words that is)
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15:19:37  <planetmaker> I'm tempted to ask him whether he tried with a allow all connections rule.
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15:37:53  <dihedral> Layer 8 issues ;-)
15:38:19  <Rubidium> yes, got those too
15:38:39  * Rubidium needs some recharging
15:39:29  <dihedral> good night :-P
15:40:34  <planetmaker> recharging... hm.... yes :-)
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15:49:43  <Belugas> recharging? like... LUNCH TIME!!
15:49:44  <Belugas> almost
15:49:48  * Belugas is hungry
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16:31:33  <xiong> Is it possible to remove a small part, preferably 1 tile, from a complex station? I don't seem to be able to bulldoze stations and when I demolish, the whole thing goes up, including disconnected parts.
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16:31:51  <Belugas> BUUUURP!
16:31:56  <Belugas> re-charged
16:32:07  <Belugas> xiong, there is such a possibility
16:32:12  <andythenorth_> can the orders for a vehicle be treated mathematically as a set
16:32:18  <Belugas> and i know it's explained in the wiki
16:32:20  * xiong would throw Belugas a fish but fears cannibalism.
16:32:41  <xiong> Don't recall; will search.
16:32:41  <glx> Belugas are not fish
16:32:57  <Belugas> :D
16:33:06  * xiong throws Belugas several fish
16:33:12  <Belugas> and the EAT fish!
16:33:25  <Belugas> gnap gnap gnap
16:33:41  <Belugas> as well as octopus
16:33:43  <Belugas> miam
16:33:49  <Belugas> with garlic
16:33:54  <Belugas> gorgeous!
16:34:14  <peter1138> Mmm, Garlic
16:34:31  <andythenorth_> give him moules frites
16:36:30  <xiong> That's extremely peculiar. I'm almost certain I tried to bulldoze part of a station before, a couple times, and failed.
16:38:43  <xiong> Well. Live and learn.
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16:40:46  <Belugas> moules & frites...  Add belgian beer and i'm on 7th sky!
16:40:59  <V453000> beer!
16:41:18  <planetmaker> hm.... :-D
16:42:28  <SmatZ> :)
16:42:34  <V453000> there we go :)
16:42:37  <SmatZ> :-)
16:44:12  <Belugas> xiong : -> bottom
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16:46:41  <xiong> Oh, I already read up on it and successfully removed an errant tile. When last I spoke, the 'peculiar' thing was that it worked. I was sure I'd tried before.
16:47:14  <Belugas> mmmh... even better
16:47:15  <Belugas>
16:47:21  <Belugas> ho... yu did... ok :0 cool
16:47:31  <xiong> Now, I see another peculiar thing. If a station part is removed, rail is left behind, even if the tile removed was a non-rail station tile.
16:49:13  <SmatZ> xiong: use Ctrl
16:49:18  <SmatZ> hmm
16:49:20  <SmatZ> sorry
16:49:30  <SmatZ> one could say that is a bug
16:49:46  <planetmaker> not at all IMHO
16:50:04  <planetmaker> it's the more powerful version of building ;-) Un-building :-P
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17:02:19  <xiong> SmatZ, Dunno if I should do that, since I have disconnected stations turned on and Ctrl gives me a list of building choices.
17:03:07  <planetmaker> is there a way to turn off distant join?
17:03:13  <xiong> It's completely rational that deleting any sort of station tile whatever would leave behind plain rail. The orientation might be weird but that's user's fault.
17:03:17  <planetmaker> hm... maybe with some rarely used setting
17:04:21  <xiong> I'm almost certain that I turned it on; off by default. Dunno. That, and irregular shaped stations, seemed so obvious a need for anything realistic. Although I've scaled back my station spread to 18.
17:04:42  <xiong> Even that may be too big.
17:04:56  <V453000> 64 ^_^
17:05:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r20990 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when removing a rail station, don't leave track under non-station tiles
17:05:06  <xiong> Since I lack self-discipline, I will blame the machine.
17:05:17  <planetmaker> hehe. OpenTTD behaviour just changed :-P
17:05:43  <V453000> SmatZ: is that a fix? :(
17:05:57  <planetmaker> no. A change
17:06:05  <V453000> ook :)
17:06:08  <planetmaker> Well. Depends on view, I guess
17:06:13  <V453000> sure :)
17:06:24  <xiong> Damn! Do all the non-rail tiles become cheaper now? Because formerly, you threw away some cash building and dozing but at least you got to keep the rail, which might even prove useful.
17:06:26  <V453000> it seems odd to me, but ... not like it matters
17:06:29  <planetmaker> When I remove the parking lot it's not logical that rail tracks remain
17:06:43  <V453000> I take it as station, not parking lot :p
17:06:52  <SmatZ> :p
17:07:10  <planetmaker> V453000: but it were not tracks anyway ;-)
17:07:25  <V453000> still :)
17:07:57  <V453000> but that is just my unrealistic-abstract-weird-gamer point of view :)
17:08:10  <xiong> Now I'm sorry I mentioned it. Now I have to work harder for the same money. It's still only 1852 and I'm 0 in the hole. K
17:08:25  <SmatZ> abstractly, it's not a station, because station has a track
17:08:31  <xiong> This calls for hot chocolate. I will make for anyone who likes.
17:08:37  <SmatZ> and because there wasn't a track, there shouldn't be track after removing the station
17:08:48  <V453000> abstractly it is a station because I used the station tool :p but whatever
17:09:00  <V453000> yes I see the point, SmatZ :p
17:09:01  <SmatZ> it could even cause train crashes if the non-track tile was used to separate two rail tiles
17:09:06  <SmatZ> :)
17:09:13  <V453000> hmm, that is true :)
17:09:41  <V453000> but well .. you can crash trains by removing signals too :p
17:09:44  <V453000> etc :)
17:10:01  <V453000> anyway, no need to discuss such a little change :D :p
17:10:29  <SmatZ> :)
17:10:56  <xiong> Or, as I have just done to resolve a couple issues, built 3 adjacent platforms belonging to 2 different stations, with opposing directions of travel. I have put little signs by the roadside reminding me not to put in the obvious connection.
17:11:23  *** Lakie [~Lakie@] has joined #openttd
17:11:31  <xiong> This may be a sufficiently stupid corner that I ought to post a shot.
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17:22:06  <andythenorth_> SmatZ: I liked the track under non-station tiles :P
17:22:06  <andythenorth_> I thought that was a useful patch addition a while back :(
17:22:13  <xiong> I think I will just start a forum thread consisting of stupid and weird stuff.
17:22:36  <SmatZ> andythenorth_: this affects only the case when a rail station is removed
17:22:45  <SmatZ> non-track rail station, specifically
17:22:56  <andythenorth_> so just the tiles with no tracks
17:23:00  <andythenorth_> you get cookies in that case
17:23:05  * SmatZ nom noms
17:23:07  <andythenorth_> it's annoying behaviour
17:23:27  <SmatZ> just test it and say your opinion :)
17:23:34  <andythenorth_> I'll compile in a bit :)
17:23:38  <andythenorth_> planetmaker et al
17:23:56  <andythenorth_> there's more to draw, but I had to start somewhere
17:27:56  <planetmaker> sounds reasonable
17:32:32  <xiong>
17:33:35  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: something I'd like to see changed though: direct access to "create new set of orders" from the vehicle window
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17:34:42  <planetmaker> but besides that I had pictured a very similar vehicle view yesterday during that discussion
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17:41:17  * andythenorth_ wonders how 'order sets' would be accessed from global menu
17:41:31  <andythenorth_> probably via train window
17:41:47  <andythenorth_> or ship window or whatever
17:42:19  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: from groups ;-)
17:42:22  <planetmaker> or similar
17:42:31  <andythenorth_> I have something else in mind
17:43:24  <andythenorth_> hmm
17:43:34  <andythenorth_> do we have any 'tabbed' windows in main game GUI?
17:43:48  <andythenorth_> stations are tabbed, and vehicle info window
17:44:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20991 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
17:44:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:44:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan
17:44:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
17:44:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by Yexo
17:44:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:44:08  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
17:45:03  <andythenorth_> hmm
17:45:10  * andythenorth_ is temporarily foxed
17:46:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r20992 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix (r20958): Show either version and minimum compatible version or neither
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17:46:31  <andythenorth_> I thought I could add 'order sets' to the main train/ship/rv buttons on the menu bar
17:46:41  <lordaro> morning!
17:46:41  <andythenorth_> but they are already used for multiple companies
17:47:25  <andythenorth_> adding buttons to the global menu bar is out of the question right?
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17:48:02  <andythenorth_> or changing the function of the existing 'stations' button?
17:48:43  <andythenorth_> omw, there's a whole stations gui I never use :o
17:48:50  <planetmaker> :-)
17:48:55  <planetmaker> it's useful
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17:49:00  <planetmaker> it shows you all related trains
17:49:04  <planetmaker> (or whatever)
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17:52:06  <andythenorth__> grrr
17:53:02  <planetmaker> you should consider again to use the bouncer ;-)
17:53:57  <Rubidium> bouncers are for sissies
17:55:03  <planetmaker> .*°*.*°*.**.*....
17:55:38  *** dfox [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:55:39  <planetmaker> (hm... my bouncing ascii art is a FAIL)
17:56:07  <lordaro> having come in half way through a conversation, can i ask what bouncers are?:-$
17:56:43  *** andythenorth_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:57:06  <planetmaker> means to stay online 24/7
17:57:18  <planetmaker> or at least pretend to
17:58:10  <davis> also used to protect nicks on irc servers without nickserv
17:58:18  <davis> or as some kind of answering machine.
17:58:19  <lordaro> basically leave your pc on all night with your irc client logged in?
17:58:43  <davis> as soon as you logon , a "client" is started on a server that is online 24/7
17:58:48  <davis> log off*
17:58:51  <planetmaker> that'd do it, too. But that'd not be a bouncer. It's a bot which logs in for you. And you connect to it
17:59:05  <davis> somehow like that ;P
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18:06:59  <andythenorth_> the stations gui I found is the one that shows waiting cargo by stations
18:07:11  <andythenorth_> I knew it was there, I just didn't know everything it could do :)
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18:10:10  <andythenorth_>
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18:13:16  <avdg> are order sets compatible with orders from other vehicles?
18:16:03  <andythenorth_> order sets would be the only way to specify orders
18:16:14  <andythenorth_> they would replace shared and individual vehicle orders
18:16:37  <xiong> I'm not sure that steam trains, horse carriages, and grade crossings mix.
18:16:58  <avdg> I would keep them
18:18:03  <xiong> All? I think I have to keep some of the grade crossings, else the towns will not grow past the rail lines.
18:18:18  * Zuu hopes the new order/groups thing will suport looking up vehicle/group orders of other companies without using the company cheats. Makes AI debugging a bit easier :-)
18:18:32  <andythenorth_> that's an interesting use case
18:18:35  <andythenorth_> thanks
18:19:34  <Zuu> There is some limitaion in the orders window that makes it crash if you enable it for other companies in its current state. :-)
18:19:44  <planetmaker> :-O
18:20:03  <xiong> But I also think that until somebody designs dog food and scrap wood yard industries, I may want to build more bridges.
18:20:56  *** Kurimus [] has quit []
18:20:59  <andythenorth_> xiong: good point :P
18:21:32  * Zuu likes that you can deattach the cable of wirless network cards in VirtualBox :-)
18:21:35  <andythenorth_>
18:22:31  <andythenorth_> consists are interesting
18:22:47  <andythenorth_> I'm not sure of some details
18:22:55  <lordaro> Zuu: how do you do that, with the funny, "Zuu likes this and that"?
18:23:04  <andythenorth_> type '/me'
18:23:08  <andythenorth_> try it :P
18:23:19  * Zuu can say Zuu likes milk
18:23:26  <planetmaker> :-)
18:23:27  * Rubidium likes that you can fuck up a managed switch/router with Virtualbox :)
18:23:36  * andythenorth_ was feeling helpful
18:24:12  * planetmaker wonders how 'manage orders' works when the search for the vehicles returned vehicles with completely different orders
18:24:27  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: good point
18:24:40  <andythenorth_> the intention is that a player would choose orders
18:24:41  <dihedral> planetmaker, i take it you did not try today?
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18:24:50  <andythenorth_> all vehicles in the list would use the chosen order set
18:24:55  <planetmaker> you're unfortunately right, dihedral
18:24:56  <andythenorth_> not sure how the gui would work for that though
18:25:15  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: I know how it would work, but not what players get to click on :P
18:25:22  <andythenorth_> maybe different menu text
18:25:40  <andythenorth_> Assign order set
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18:26:31  <andythenorth_>
18:26:34  <planetmaker> so... would a new set of orders be created? Would one set of the existing orders be modified? Or... what would be modified, if I manage orders on an arbitrary list
18:26:54  <andythenorth_> I changed the words ;)
18:27:30  <planetmaker> so... they'd loose their current orders, being pulled out of their current 'route'
18:28:49  <andythenorth_> yes
18:28:50  <andythenorth_>
18:29:04  <andythenorth_> for whatever reason the player chose
18:29:11  <andythenorth_> vehicles only have one set of orders
18:29:29  <andythenorth_> this is just a way to assign them to a mass number of vehicles using arbitrary criteria
18:31:18  <andythenorth_> not sure about consists though
18:31:24  <andythenorth_> this could work without consists for now
18:31:35  <andythenorth_> consists could be a functional replacement of autoreplace + renew
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18:34:36  <andythenorth_> @seen alberth
18:34:36  <DorpsGek> andythenorth_: alberth was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 17 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Alberth> good night
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18:36:30  <andythenorth_> the first puzzle I have for consists is:
18:36:50  <andythenorth_> (1) does every combination of vehicles / refits ever made get stored as a consist
18:37:03  <andythenorth_> or (2) does the player choose to create consists explicitly
18:37:45  <andythenorth_> (a consist being a template that a specific vehicle tries to match to)
18:39:01  <planetmaker> the vehicles just are. They're not duplicated
18:39:16  <planetmaker> there are temporary copies only in the autorenew and autoreplace window
18:39:24  <planetmaker> And that is... something I don't touch
18:39:46  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: would you expect to make a consist, or choose one from a list?
18:39:52  <andythenorth_> or something else?
18:40:07  <planetmaker> what's a consist in this sense? the whole train?
18:40:13  <planetmaker> then I pick wagons piecewise
18:40:22  <andythenorth_> in something like the depot window
18:40:26  <andythenorth_> but in a special place
18:40:32  <andythenorth_> and choose the refits
18:41:08  <andythenorth_> and when building a new would be very annoying to have to 'first define a consist'?
18:41:17  <planetmaker> then I'd like to chose easily by area-drag-highlight what vehicles a refit applies to. Or the 'all' button
18:41:22  <planetmaker> (and 'none')
18:41:37  <andythenorth_> partial refit is a good but separate problem for now :)
18:42:06  <andythenorth_> I'm trying to figure out if consists are a helpful tool for (so-called) power users (I dislike the term)...
18:42:13  <andythenorth_> ...or if they fundamentally change the way the game works
18:42:18  <andythenorth_> I think helpful tool
18:42:26  <andythenorth_> otherwise big change, and also annoying
18:45:03  <jonty-comp>
18:45:04  <jonty-comp> mb
18:45:06  <jonty-comp> i smell
18:45:09  <andythenorth_> when building a new train - could I just pick a consist to build?
18:46:09  <jonty-comp> university irc rape D:
18:46:24  <orudge> how rude
18:50:33  <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: want to talk about consists?
18:53:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: I don't think you just pick a consist
18:54:10  <andythenorth_> because....?
18:54:13  <planetmaker> it's not master of orion where you store your ship^Wtrain designes
18:54:53  <planetmaker> because that'd mean yet another completely unrelated feature: build (templates)
18:55:29  <andythenorth_> your view makes sense to me
18:55:41  <planetmaker> of course, they might make sense. And I wished for them sometimes.
18:55:51  <planetmaker> But then: I can clone existing trains with a single click
18:56:00  <andythenorth_> yes
18:56:02  <planetmaker> so... existing vehicles are a template
18:56:07  <andythenorth_> yes
18:56:37  <andythenorth_> so you might be able to specify a new *consist* from a vehicle, but not vice versa
18:56:57  <andythenorth_> consists need to be limited somehow, or there'll be too much of everything all over the place
18:57:01  <andythenorth_> too many dimensions :P
18:58:29  <andythenorth_> so my suggestions would be:
18:58:44  <andythenorth_> - sort out orders/shared orders into order sets (like Brianetta's lines, but not by breaking existing groups concept)
18:58:58  <andythenorth_> - rework groups to be like saved searches with arbitrary criteria
18:59:28  <andythenorth_> - consolidate auto-replace / renew, and upgrade to allow specifying of consist
18:59:39  <andythenorth_> each can be done individually
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19:07:38  <dihedral> ServerNetworkGameSocketHandler::SendMap()
19:07:39  <dihedral> p->Send_uint32(ftell(file_pointer));
19:07:51  <dihedral> ^ documented as " how many packets are coming"
19:08:04  <dihedral> does that not just send how big the map is?
19:08:07  * lordaro says hi
19:08:43  * lordaro says to himself: "YAY! it worked!
19:08:53  <Rubidium> dihedral: it's just a conversion factor :)
19:09:19  <dihedral> it makes a difference if it's the size of the map or number of packets to expect :-P
19:09:27  <dihedral> at least for documentation :-D
19:09:48  * lordaro 's ubuntu 10.10 download has 5 mins to go, so he will going offline soon :(
19:09:59  *** pugi [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:10:22  *** pugi [] has joined #openttd
19:10:23  <dihedral> lordaro, you will like the installer ;-)
19:10:54  <Rubidium> well, then say it's the number of bytes
19:11:43  <lordaro> dihedral: 3mins... what's so special about it?
19:12:21  * lordaro wonders if people will get annoyed if i talk like this for the rest of time... :p
19:12:38  <planetmaker> it would be off-topic
19:12:40  * lordaro 2mins...
19:13:12  <lordaro> ok, i'll stop now :)
19:13:24  <dihedral> lordaro, you configure while in the background it installes the base system
19:14:00  <lordaro> awesomes...14 files to go...
19:14:08  <planetmaker> sounds awesome, dihedral :-)
19:14:24  <planetmaker> you broke your promise, lordaro ;-)
19:15:44  <lordaro> a) it wasn't a promise
19:15:44  <lordaro> b) no i didn't, i didn't count down...
19:15:44  <lordaro> :p
19:18:06  * lordaro wonders if there is a way to see how many commits each OTTD dev has done, throughout history...
19:18:22  <Rubidium> no, that information is not recorded
19:18:51  <lordaro> unless i go through all of them and count each one :D
19:18:57  <planetmaker> yep
19:19:21  <avdg> thats going to be interesting :p
19:19:41  <lordaro> shame...i was thinking about a forum post about it
19:20:02  <lordaro> another idea thrown on the trash heap :/
19:20:40  <Belugas> most probably, however, you'll find that Rubidium has the most commits done
19:20:43  <Belugas> commit machine
19:24:27  <Zuu> There was a movie/visualisation posted to tt-forums that someone created, showing the devs doing commits over time.
19:24:55  <lordaro> even though he (rubidium) only joined recently(ish), more than even darkvater? (peace be upon him) :D
19:25:54  *** Adambean [AdamR@] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
19:26:11  <Zuu> A hint, Rubidium was at the r10k party so it can't be that recently.
19:26:47  <planetmaker> lordaro: FS#4172: the string is part of FIRS
19:26:52  <Mortomes> Rubidium does indeed have the highest number of commits
19:27:13  <Mortomes> Followed by frosch123 and translators
19:27:41  <lordaro> Mortomes: And you know this how? :$
19:28:09  <andythenorth_> lordaro: report the problem at the FIRS bug tracker
19:28:18  <andythenorth_>
19:28:30  <Mortomes> lordaro: By looking at the history of commits on the svn server?
19:28:35  <andythenorth_> lordaro it applies to clay cargo as well I think
19:28:36  <frosch123> Mortomes: did you do a statistics of last two days? else it is quite broken :p
19:29:10  <Mortomes> Oh hmm
19:29:20  <Mortomes> yeah, only of the last 2 weeks
19:29:33  <Rubidium> yes, TrueBrain (or TrueLight) is definitely second
19:29:36  <frosch123> lordaro: anyway, google for openttd and ohloh
19:29:43  <Rubidium> (since r1v2)
19:29:49  <Mortomes> Checking for all commits now
19:30:01  <frosch123> Mortomes: same for you, google for openttd and ohloh :p
19:30:18  <Rubidium> <- it's so simple :)
19:30:36  <Mortomes> Rubidium, tron, peter1138, darkvater
19:30:49  <Rubidium> but... it's since r1v2, so lots 975 commits and a load of work before the first svn are ignored
19:30:55  <Mortomes> And Rubidium is more than the other 3 combined :P
19:31:13  <Rubidium> ohloh "fails" in the commit counting
19:31:22  <Rubidium> as it doesn't include commits to branches
19:31:28  <Rubidium> which are definitely commits
19:31:36  <Mortomes> ah
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19:31:49  <planetmaker> hm, you wrote 23% of OpenTTD, Rubidium ;-)
19:31:51  <Rubidium> on the other hand, my list fails because truebrain = truelight and they are not counted as the same
19:32:06  <Rubidium> planetmaker: unlikely
19:32:23  <dihedral> no author :-P
19:32:25  <planetmaker> statistics :-P
19:32:48  <Rubidium> no author is either TB or me
19:32:53  <Rubidium> though mostly TB
19:33:01  <Rubidium> arguably all but a few
19:33:01  <dihedral> pasky <- heh never heard of that nick :-P
19:33:19  <planetmaker> not?
19:33:20  <Rubidium> dihedral: booh you
19:34:02  <dihedral> nope :-P
19:35:00  <Rubidium> arguably you've got software installed that he worked on
19:36:03  <lordaro> openttd? :p
19:36:40  <dihedral> define 'installed' :-P
19:37:03  <Rubidium> dihedral: your operating system thought it would be useful for you to have it by default
19:37:28  <Rubidium> the likes of e.g. (g)libc
19:37:38  <dihedral> heh
19:38:04  <planetmaker> "...Currently, my main open-source involvement is hacking glibc, poking..." <-- that guy?
19:38:13  <planetmaker> quote from 2000 or so
19:39:05  <planetmaker> at the end of a simple google search :-)
19:39:13  <Rubidium> <- he's involved somewhat recently as well
19:39:46  <Rubidium> but... dihedral, thanks again for proving that people don't read the readme when they should have
19:40:26  <Rubidium> but then, what did he do besides writing initial NewGRF support?
19:41:19  <planetmaker> :-)
19:41:47  <dihedral> actually i did look at the credits a few times
19:45:34  * andythenorth_ is reminded that mb is really a very polite and helpful person :D
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19:55:26  <dihedral> why is there a network password type if the passwords are send in separate packets anyway??
19:55:57  <frosch123> :o
19:56:14  <frosch123> did not know that
19:57:27  <SmatZ> dihedral: because of the "enter password dialog", iirc
19:57:46  <SmatZ> frosch123: what happened?
19:58:03  <Rubidium> hysterical raisins?
19:58:15  <Rubidium> but please make a list of all those possible stupid things
19:58:18  <frosch123> hmm, i just meant "suse" at "cz" instead "de"
19:58:27  <glx> [21:26:15] <Zuu> There was a movie/visualisation posted to tt-forums that someone created, showing the devs doing commits over time. <-- someone was DV IIRC
19:58:38  <dihedral> i was just curious ^^
19:59:00  <SmatZ> remove the enum and see what breaks :)
19:59:28  <glx> Rubidium: about not counted commits there are all the accessors stuff we did in an external svn
19:59:54  <dihedral> SmatZ, not remove the enum, merge both packets :-P
20:00:13  <SmatZ> dihedral: bah, they were split few weeks ago
20:00:38  <dihedral> oh really?
20:00:54  <dihedral> did not notice that :-P
20:01:20  <SmatZ> @commit 19607
20:01:21  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by smatz :: r19607 /trunk/src/network (5 files in 2 dirs) (2010-04-11 17:17:12 UTC)
20:01:22  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Codechange: use different packet types instead of packet subtypes
20:01:56  <Rubidium> where few == about 27.5
20:02:00  <SmatZ> ;-)
20:02:36  <Rubidium> 							/* NewGRF strings from Action 4 use a different format here,
20:02:37  <Rubidium> 							 * of e.g. "x tonnes of coal", so process accordingly. */
20:02:42  <Rubidium> guess that says it all
20:03:01  <planetmaker> so valid actually
20:03:17  <Rubidium> yes-ish
20:03:26  <dihedral> SmatZ, that would explain why i know nothing about it
20:03:31  <SmatZ> :)
20:03:40  <SmatZ> time flows too quickly :(
20:04:14  <Rubidium> hmm, wrong channel
20:04:27  <SmatZ> :)
20:04:46  <planetmaker> :-)
20:11:09  * andythenorth_ looks for a project of some kind
20:11:31  <dihedral> write an app for the admin network :-P
20:12:12  <andythenorth_> what does it do?
20:12:23  <lordaro> an AI? that will only work with FIRS, FISH and HEQS :p
20:12:50  * andythenorth_ looks for a small project of some kind
20:13:02  <frosch123> p1sim?
20:13:39  <dihedral> the admin network allows you to get updates on client / company information
20:13:47  <frosch123> though small project could be diapers again
20:13:52  <dihedral> details such as economy and vehicle / station numbers
20:14:00  <dihedral> and lets you execute rcon commands
20:14:11  <dihedral> frosch123, do they not all :-P
20:17:10  * andythenorth_ thinks sleep is a nice project
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20:22:08  <dihedral>
20:22:10  <dihedral> Rubidium, ^
20:24:07  <Rubidium> Max_COMPANIES <- those weren't in the old code
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20:24:42  <volta> hi folks ... anyone ready for a signal/path finding question?
20:25:08  <planetmaker> read the 2nd last bit of the topic ;-)
20:25:12  <dihedral> updated
20:25:21  <planetmaker> but welcome
20:25:36  <davis> , what airport newgrf is that? i'm quite aware of the fact that most of the sorounding is eyecandy
20:25:47  <davis> though , is the airport itself released somewhere?
20:25:57  <dihedral> sac?
20:26:00  <avdg> davis: do you still have a save from it?
20:26:07  <Lakie> Um.
20:26:26  <davis> that's a screenshot out of the infra screenshot thread
20:26:27  <volta> i'm trying to build a simple cyclotron to inject train to a main rail, but something fails:
20:26:28  <Lakie> That looks like the large airport from ttrs, with a load of 'fake' airport tiles around it
20:26:43  <davis> ah , thanks :)
20:26:47  <Lakie> If memory serves. :)
20:26:59  <V453000> davis: TTRS
20:27:32  <V453000> maybe something mixed in
20:27:42  <davis> does TTRS have a parameter which disables everything but that airport? D:
20:27:46  <V453000> definitely don tknow about the other candy :)
20:27:56  <Lakie> Dunno, most likely not?
20:27:57  <V453000> davis: no, you need at least some houses from TTRS
20:27:57  <dihedral> volta, trains follow their path, they do not follow 'straight' over 'turn'
20:28:02  <Lakie> Doesn't it have a read me?
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20:28:14  <davis> thanks guys , yeah I just checked the parameters.
20:28:22  <davis> let's see how it mixes with ecs / swedish houses
20:28:49  <volta> you've got any solution? (i actually don't understand the cyclotron shown in the openttd wiki)
20:29:19  <Rubidium> two way signal together with red-two-way-signal-is-dead-end?
20:29:26  <V453000> omfg PBS prio
20:29:28  <avdg> volta: use 2way
20:29:56  <planetmaker> volta: basically that image does not load
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20:30:14  * lordaro has just been searching through dihedral's server... (
20:30:29  <avdg> lol
20:30:31  <dihedral> lordaro, you cannot see it all :-P
20:30:48  <lordaro> i know, a pity that :D
20:30:50  <dihedral> but i hope you enjoyed it
20:30:50  <Belugas> pffff...  "i don't care of the flow of bug reports you'll get, just give me rudimentary rotation maps, you'll have plenty of time to fix the images afterward"
20:31:01  <V453000> does anyone know what are the roads from daviss screenshot? seems like YARRS but the bridges and tunnels are nicer
20:31:09  <Belugas> so demanding, sir TiagoTiago
20:31:11  <Rubidium> 0.6.0-beta1 fair play nightly?
20:31:14  <volta> great ... the 2 way works
20:31:18  <planetmaker> oh it did load and took only 5 minutes
20:31:20  <volta> but why?
20:31:51  <planetmaker> Belugas: nice guy, right? :-P
20:32:04  <Belugas> quite...
20:32:05  <planetmaker> I'll leave that thread to die
20:32:06  <Belugas> NOT
20:32:17  <Belugas> but i have to admit, he's polite and well structured
20:32:27  <dihedral> it's a shame i cannot find my very first patches :-P
20:32:28  <andythenorth_> nice of him to volunteer my time freely to redraw FIRS graphics
20:32:42  <andythenorth_> like 1 year of weekends to do one direction so far
20:33:01  <dihedral> Rubidium, that image was generated using openttdlib and some image functions
20:33:15  <lordaro> Belugas: difference of opinion certainly, devs say one thing, he says they're wrong and he's right...i wonder who's going to win...:D
20:33:47  <Rubidium> he is
20:33:50  <glx> well he's free to code it himself
20:33:54  <Rubidium> but due to forfit
20:34:06  <lordaro> ubuntu 10.10 installation complete! restarting now...
20:34:06  <lordaro> see you in a bit!
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20:35:12  <planetmaker> [22:34]	<dihedral>	it's a shame i cannot find my very first patches :-P <-- mine is in trunk ;-)
20:35:27  <Rubidium> mine is in trunk as well
20:35:28  <planetmaker> like 2.5 years ago... one line... hotkey 'B' for aqueducts ;-)
20:35:36  <Rubidium> committed by Tron
20:35:43  <Belugas> hey... you have to start somewhere....
20:35:43  <Rubidium> and it was actually quite big
20:35:47  <andythenorth_> I know where my first patch is :)
20:35:55  <Belugas> dear Tron...
20:36:00  <planetmaker> SmatZ added mine.
20:36:06  <Belugas> i miss him, sometimes
20:36:11  <dihedral> planetmaker, most of my early ones are too
20:36:20  <dihedral> but there were some odd things i tried :-D
20:36:29  <planetmaker> ;-)
20:36:59  <planetmaker> Belugas: the problem with map rotation is that it's a topic with many non-obvious traps:
20:37:03  <Belugas> DV included my first one.  it was part of my attempt at newhouse, some cleanup i did
20:37:12  <Belugas> indeed planetmaker
20:37:15  <planetmaker> a) graphics rotations from symmetric to completely arbitrary
20:37:23  <andythenorth_> anyone want to patch industry window -> add an extra window showing when each accepted cargo last delivered?
20:37:38  <andythenorth_> I can do it newgrf but that spoils fun for someone
20:37:45  <Belugas> just think of all the grfs that include industries and houses
20:37:48  <planetmaker> b) implementation for those, swapping sprites(?) etc
20:38:08  <planetmaker> and then the last: the transition time and the many issues it brings. That is the most often forgotten part ;-)
20:38:14  <Belugas> c) orientation of vehicles depending of them new point of view
20:38:34  <planetmaker> d) animation industry / objects / airport tiles
20:38:37  <planetmaker> great fun
20:38:42  <planetmaker> with relative sprite positions
20:38:45  <andythenorth_> does the sun rotate also?
20:38:52  <planetmaker> yes
20:39:09  <planetmaker> 25 day give or take a few depending on lattitude
20:39:13  <Belugas> e) orientation of the rail/roads are now ging to be arbitrary, or depending of the current view
20:39:18  <andythenorth_> ok so only every single sprite has to be redrawn and reshaded
20:39:21  <dihedral> planetmaker, r9771
20:39:24  <dihedral> @commit 9771
20:39:25  <DorpsGek> dihedral: Commit by peter1138 :: r9771 trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp (2007-05-02 19:00:59 UTC)
20:39:25  <andythenorth_> lets do it!
20:39:26  <DorpsGek> dihedral: -Feature: (-tte) Add password protected status to 'players' (network server) console command. (mostly dihedral)
20:39:34  <planetmaker> Belugas: well, it's sufficient to consider 90° steps
20:39:45  <andythenorth_> or perhaps patch the industry window :P
20:40:12  <andythenorth_> 'more info'
20:40:16  <andythenorth_> shows stats
20:40:31  <Belugas> what's more:  what the hell is it going to change in one's life?
20:40:40  <Belugas> there are no hidden area
20:40:41  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20993 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_game.h network_client.cpp network_server.cpp): -Codechange: some shuffling of game protocol packet description so they're documented in the "same" place as UDP, content and admin packets (dihedral)
20:40:52  <andythenorth_> belugas certainly less than changing the industry window would :P
20:41:07  <Belugas> indeed, andythenorth_
20:41:11  <Belugas> hem...
20:41:12  <Belugas> what?
20:41:24  <Belugas> ho...
20:41:29  * andythenorth_ thinks it would be nice to know when cargo last delivered to an industry
20:42:46  <andythenorth_> or I can do it in newgrf :P
20:43:00  <andythenorth_> which solves it for me, but not everyone
20:43:11  <andythenorth_> unless we make FIRS compulsory :D
20:43:20  <andythenorth_> I wouldn't like that
20:43:30  <Rubidium> andythenorth_: but FIRS is compulsory in a FIRS game
20:43:37  <andythenorth_> indeed
20:43:48  <andythenorth_> is it compulsory I support it?
20:43:55  <andythenorth_> I guess it is, for now
20:44:05  <Rubidium> andythenorth_: depends on your license
20:44:14  <andythenorth_> GPL v2
20:44:25  <andythenorth_> no support, no warranty :)
20:45:15  <andythenorth_> no-one wants to up their commit count with small industry window shenanigan?
20:46:05  <Yexo> to do it properly the values need to be stored int he savegame, so it's not "small"
20:46:18  <andythenorth_> it's small words :)
20:47:34  <andythenorth_> Yexo: you're right, I'm wrong :(
20:47:51  <andythenorth_> I thought there were 80+ vars already for last time cargo accepted
20:48:05  <Rubidium> argh... now I think of Guy Steele's presentation again
20:48:14  <Rubidium> stupid small words
20:48:30  <andythenorth_> small words or small worlds?
20:48:55  <Rubidium> small words (with 2 "l"s in total)
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20:49:48  <andythenorth_> Yexo: I'll do it with registers I guess.  If I do it :P
20:50:21  <Yexo> I'm not saying it shouldn't be done by openttd, but to be honest I see little value in those dates
20:50:36  <andythenorth_> it's probably quite FIRS specific
20:51:27  <andythenorth_> for industries that boost production where cargos are delivered within 30 days of each other, it's useful
20:51:35  <andythenorth_> but there's probably a better solution anyway
20:51:37  <dihedral> reading though old commit messages brings up memories :-D
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20:55:27  * andythenorth_ is glad there are some FIRS cargo slots free
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20:55:37  <andythenorth_> BEER is likely to make an appearance sometime
20:56:54  <planetmaker> \o/
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21:08:36  * Belugas goes home - enjoy the night gents
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21:21:08  * Lakie sighs
21:21:32  <Lakie> More nmlc issues.
21:23:26  <Yexo> what is the problem this time?
21:23:50  <Yexo> lots of changes this weekend + only a very small regression test = big chance of bugs
21:24:13  <Lakie> Heh, well still trying to work out if its my fault...
21:24:33  <Lakie> Does it reckonize things like 0xFF & ~6?
21:25:03  <Yexo> yes
21:25:14  <Yexo> it should optimize that away at compile time
21:25:37  <Lakie> Hmmm... well, climates_available  : CLIMATE_ALL & ~CLIMATE_TOYLAND; appears to lead to climates_available: CLIMATE_TOYLAND.
21:26:45  <Yexo> CLIMATE_ALL is a bitmask, but CLIMATE_TOYLAND is not
21:26:53  <Yexo> CLIMATE_TOYLAND is 3, not 0x08
21:27:05  <Lakie> Ah, fair enough
21:27:12  <Yexo> CLIMATE_ALL & ~bitmask(CLIMATE_TOYLAND) <- this works
21:27:15  <Yexo> result: 7
21:27:19  <Lakie> Cool,
21:27:28  <glx> not clear naming ;)
21:27:38  <Lakie> Heh, yeah
21:27:48  <frosch123> eh what, that might also be my problem
21:28:00  <Lakie> My other question is how do I flag a part o a spriteground as a shared spritebox?
21:29:07  <frosch123> night
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21:30:32  <Lakie> nvm, tis childsprite.
21:30:57  <Yexo> missing documentation :(
21:31:15  <Lakie> Indeed, most of the objects stuff is missing documentation
21:31:18  <Yexo> I was still busy trying to figure it out, after making the climate bitmask problem a higher priority bug
21:35:10  <Lakie> Is it really nessary to set versio and mion_version, and not have it default them to 0 or something? >_>
21:35:35  <Yexo> for now, yes
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21:35:52  <Lakie> ok
21:36:05  <Yexo> by forcing users to explicitly set them they become aware of them and hopefully will use them for newer versions
21:36:19  <Lakie> I guess
21:37:08  <Lakie> I'm unsure if needing ground {} is a bug or not.
21:37:32  <Yexo> I don't think so, you can probably specify multiple ground sprites
21:37:50  <Lakie> I was thinking of when you do not specify one
21:38:18  <Lakie> ground { /* Fudged no ground sprite, ideally it should detect we omitted this */ ttdsprite: 0; }
21:38:43  <Yexo> agreed, it should be possible to leave that out
21:39:13  <Yexo> is a ground sprite of 0 valid?
21:39:24  <Lakie> 0 basically means no groundsprite
21:39:44  <Yexo> the ttdpatch wiki mentions explicitly that 0 can be used for buildingsprite to indicate "no building sprite" but it doesn't say the same for groundsprite
21:39:46  <Lakie> Only compatible with building sprites >= 1
21:40:02  <Lakie> Ah, its only applicable to the second layout type
21:40:28  <Lakie> little oddities and such, one allows no ground tile (and multiples), the other allows no building sprite
21:41:06  <Lakie> You can blame Csaboka...
21:42:25  <Lakie> Also based off its message, I presume ground {} childsprite {} would be multiple ground sprites, and that it'll reject ground {} ground {}.
21:43:06  <Yexo> indeed
21:43:13  <Yexo> only a single ground{} sprite is allowed
21:43:47  <Lakie> Ok, I think thats fair enough,
21:44:15  <Yexo> I'll open a ticket about leaving out the ground{} block and defaulting to 0 in that case
21:44:26  <Lakie> Ok thanks,
21:47:41  <Lakie> I presume the action4 text groupping is more complex because multiple languages / usually being defined before use?
21:47:55  <Yexo> indeed
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21:48:18  <Lakie> I believe 0xD000 texts atleast can be defined anywhere in the file
21:48:21  <Yexo> one of the problems there is that I'm not sure what happens if you define an action4 for an invalid vehicle
21:48:29  <Lakie> I think it might be the same for others
21:48:38  <Yexo> say the action0/3 for a vehicle is conditionally skipped, does it matter if the action4 is skipped or not?
21:48:46  <Lakie> Hmm.. I dunno, crash maybe?
21:49:15  <Lakie> I imagine it should detect ingame that the id is invalid and reject the string?
21:49:23  <Lakie>  / grf?
21:49:59  <Lakie> Shouldn't be too hard to test, maybe count number of uses and only output ones which have been used?
21:50:32  <Yexo> count the uses means we need one counter (= one parameter) for every string
21:50:44  <Yexo> not possible, given you can define more than 255 vehicles in a single grf
21:50:55  <Lakie> Thats true, I was about to say means more overhead.
21:51:22  <Yexo> the current situation in nml is even worse: if you use the same string twice it'll create two 0xD00xx ids for it
21:51:25  <Lakie> Well, I believe those vehicles will be rejected by ttdpatch...
21:51:38  <Lakie> um, thats bad
21:52:23  <Yexo> in most cases regarding strings the behavior of ttdpatch is making it hard to do properly (mostly because I can read the openttd code with much more ease)
21:52:33  <Yexo> ^^ not wanting to blame ttdpatch
21:52:50  <Lakie> Well, make a simple grf, and test it?
21:53:11  <Lakie> I know that objects will work with the d000 texts defined anywhere after the action8
21:53:15  <Yexo> that's one of the things on the todo list
21:53:48  <Lakie> (As I tend to define them at the end. :) )
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21:54:42  <Lakie> Any id out of range, so for ttpdtach that'd be 7e or something?
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22:13:40  <Lakie> I must admit I'm not sure it seemly accepts a grf assigning a text to a train of id f0 which seems very wrong.
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22:55:26  <xiong> Okay, I think I'm starting to get it straight. Depots and bridges cannot be dozed; they can only be demolished. Correct? Is there a list of things that can only be demolished?
22:55:33  <[twisti]> man its really hard to get 100% rating even with a statue :|
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22:57:27  <Eddi|zuHause> [twisti]: yes, it's supposed to be hard.
23:02:23  <[twisti]> it seems almost impossible to keep it at 100% without ad campaigns, which feel like cheating
23:17:47  <Eddi|zuHause> afair the magical lines are 25%, 33%, 50% and 66%
23:18:53  <Eddi|zuHause> below 25% cargo disappears very fast from stations, below 33% industries have an increased chance of closing, below 50% cargo disappears slowly from stations, above 66% (primary) industries have increased chance of growing production
23:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you play industry sets, they can change some of these
23:19:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i think ECS moves the closure line to 70%
23:19:57  <Eddi|zuHause> which can be very hard
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