Log for #openttd on 21st October 2010:
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00:00:30  <xiong> Hi, guys.
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00:55:33  <enr1x> good night guys
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03:20:55  <xiong> Foo.
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05:41:38  <_Terkhen_> good morning
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06:33:50  <__ln__> good news everyone, Steve has introduced the new Mac OS X Lion.
06:34:52  <peter1138> how much does that bug fix cost?
06:35:17  <__ln__> no idea
06:36:25  <_Terkhen_> IIRC the last one costed about 30€ or 40€
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06:46:27  <planetmaker> moin
06:47:10  <planetmaker> apple ships SnowLeopard for $US 29
06:47:42  <__ln__> the upgrade from Leopard
06:47:50  <planetmaker> full version
06:47:53  <__ln__> oh
06:48:05  <planetmaker> there's no upgrade-only media
06:49:06  <planetmaker> actually when I bought it here they said it'd be that. But it isn't
06:49:54  <__ln__> buying upgrade and using it as full can still be against license terms.
06:51:04  <planetmaker> I know. I didn't say I don't use it as an upgrade
06:51:14  <planetmaker> But it installed just fine on a clean HD
06:51:27  <planetmaker> and it's meant to
06:52:49  <planetmaker> (I generally upgrade any OS by a clean install on a new HD only)
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07:10:17  <Keiya_> planetmaker, there's no full version of OS X
07:10:20  <Keiya_> At all.
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07:23:33  <planetmaker> if you think so, Keiya_
07:23:41  <planetmaker> I won't waste effort to argue
07:23:56  <Keiya_> Well actually there is. It's just you can only get it by buying a full system.
07:24:07  <Keiya_> The disks can do clean installs, but they're still upgrade versions
07:24:11  <planetmaker> as I stated above: untrue
07:24:16  <Keiya_> It's one of the things I hate about apple >_>
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07:24:40  <planetmaker> You can buy a HDD off the shelf in the shop next door and install it on there
07:25:05  <planetmaker> obviously you're also one of those people who know all about why apple sucks but never use it
07:25:05  <Keiya_> Right. It can do clean installs, I just said that
07:25:18  <Keiya_> I've /done/ clean installs of OS X.
07:25:39  <Keiya_> It's just that legally, it's still an upgrade version. It just doesn't care how badly you trashed your previous install :P
07:26:07  <Keiya_> (IE, dropped the hard drive in a lake. I'm not joking, that actually happened to a friend of mine.
07:26:20  <planetmaker> shit happens
07:28:49  <Keiya_> Well, a thousand thousand thousand years from now when humanity is dead and gone alien archeolgists can go wtf over it :P
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07:34:45  <peter1138> I prefer my upgrades free.
07:35:18  <planetmaker> :-)
07:37:11  <Keiya_> The only mac I have doesn't run any version of OS X with decent speed (it's old...) so I have debian on it instead :P
07:37:38  <Keiya_> It doesn't help I lost most of the disks for 10.3
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08:03:08  <dihedral> morning :-)
08:04:32  <dihedral> <__ln__> buying upgrade and using it as full can still be against license terms. <- not if you have the full license your upgrade license is bound to :-)
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08:59:51  <__ln__> Rubidium: good news to you too, one new Mac OS X version to support next summer
09:03:29  <planetmaker> there is no support, __ln__
09:03:58  <planetmaker> dihedral: I read it that way, that Kobi gave the name of one server he tried to join
09:04:00  <norbert79> If it's about MacOSX, I have just read a short summary about the changes in MacOs Lion: new launchpad, and Apple store
09:04:09  <planetmaker> yeah
09:04:24  <norbert79> Amazing, fascinating, wonderful
09:04:42  <norbert79> </sarcasm>
09:05:19  <_Terkhen_> did they finally fix the issues with 3D acceleration?
09:05:22  * planetmaker doesn't like that that concept either, if it's enforced
09:06:19  * planetmaker hardly uses 3D graphics ;-)
09:06:30  <dihedral> planetmaker, thanks - i somehow did not see that part of the post
09:06:33  <norbert79> Well, I once tried to find out why Mac's are so expensive... Well, it comes normally with 3Gb of ram, but 4GB costs you severeal hundred bucks more... Didn't know, that the memory factory segment in IT is in that deep recession
09:07:11  <planetmaker> that's where the money comes in. Much cheaper if you add the memory and bigger HDD yourself. Indeed
09:07:14  <norbert79> and I am still being told, that Macs are cheap...
09:07:31  <norbert79> planetmaker: But you cannot, since you are tied to license agreements
09:07:42  <planetmaker> There's no license for hardware
09:07:52  <dihedral> norbert79, planetmaker lives in germany :-)
09:07:54  <norbert79> planetmaker: But you lose at least the guarantee
09:07:55  <planetmaker> I own it. I may do withit what  I like
09:07:58  <norbert79> dihedral: I know
09:07:59  <planetmaker> That I do
09:08:08  <dihedral> and germany says you may install mac software is not bound to mac hardware
09:08:14  <planetmaker> But you do that everywhere
09:08:15  <dihedral> eh - muddeld thoughs
09:08:20  <planetmaker> when you temper with it
09:08:26  <dihedral> you are not bound to mac hardware with the mac software
09:08:35  <norbert79> dihedral: Not everywhere, at least in Hungary, you are very bound to several agreements
09:08:52  <dihedral> norbert79, hence i refereed to germany ;-)
09:08:57  <planetmaker> :-)
09:09:03  <norbert79> dihedral: Even though unlocking iPhones was made legal, you automatically lose your guarantee here
09:09:25  <norbert79> Worse of it, if you buy the phone at T-Mobile you even ban youú
09:09:29  <norbert79> if they found out
09:09:32  <dihedral> in some cases i think germany has fun upsides - esp. with regards to software lisences :-D
09:09:58  <norbert79> yeah, I know, and not only with that
09:10:09  <norbert79> I just love german politicans when it comes to FPS games
09:10:20  <dihedral> pffft
09:10:32  <dihedral> nutters ^^
09:10:35  <norbert79> Agreed
09:11:27  <norbert79> I can understand the part with WW2 related decisions, but I am lost in concept when it comes to a recent FPS, where the german version has some limits, got censored, etc
09:11:55  <norbert79> or they removed the realism effect by not allowing arms and legs to be ripped off
09:12:14  <norbert79> hey, you can still kill the character in the game, so whats the diofference?
09:12:20  <planetmaker> it's dangerous for the psychology of youths, you know.
09:12:23  <norbert79> lol
09:12:29  <planetmaker> They'd all run amok, if they see violence
09:12:40  <planetmaker> (that is honestly argued exactly that way! :-( )
09:12:42  <norbert79> Yeah, right, thats why the Stasi 2.0, it's good for ya
09:13:04  <norbert79> too bad CCC got Herr SchÀuble's fingerprint :D
09:13:10  <planetmaker> :-)
09:13:15  <norbert79> Btw willkommen Herr SchÀuble
09:13:19  <planetmaker> well, he's not minister for internal affairs anymore
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09:13:28  <norbert79> ooh, sorry, missed a few months
09:13:36  <planetmaker> one year :-D
09:13:42  <norbert79> thats a few months for me :D
09:13:46  <planetmaker> :-)
09:13:56  <planetmaker> I guess he's off the scene very soon anyway
09:14:01  <planetmaker> Been ill for weeks now
09:14:05  <norbert79> aaah
09:14:21  <planetmaker> though he's still treasurer
09:14:28  <norbert79> but as far as I see things, those regulations won't get cleared off very soon I guess, who wants let loose of total control?
09:14:48  <planetmaker> for sure they won't
09:14:57  <planetmaker> once installed, never to go
09:15:18  <__ln__> planetmaker: 12:05 <+planetmaker> there is no support, __ln__   <-- i know
09:15:21  <planetmaker> same with limiations to civil rights, like internet censorship blocks etc
09:15:33  <planetmaker> coming in disguise to prevent child abuse
09:15:35  <norbert79> planetmaker: Yeah, sucks, it definitally feels like DDR times
09:16:02  <norbert79> planetmaker: But back then it weas all in the name of sozialismus, now it's all about 'terror prevention'
09:16:05  <planetmaker> it was ruled illegal by the supreme court, still it is argued for over and over by the same people
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09:16:18  <planetmaker> And I fear they'll finally succeed to install a censorship infrastructure
09:16:30  <planetmaker> And once in place it's easy to expand it to other topics of interest
09:16:37  <norbert79> Indeed
09:16:59  <planetmaker> yes 'terrorism' and 'security' are so nice catch-phrases. It's amazing how well they work :-(
09:17:07  <norbert79> I am damn sure that even I have old Stasi files on me and my father, becasue he went to the Fireman school in Magdeburg from 1979-1982
09:17:10  <planetmaker> planting fear in the heart of the enemy. It works
09:17:19  <planetmaker> he
09:17:29  <planetmaker> you have the right to look for it.
09:17:41  <norbert79> Yeah, wanted to do so, but that would cost me a trip to Berlin
09:17:47  <planetmaker> Just file a request and you'll be given the chance to look into the files
09:17:48  <norbert79> and I don't have the money for it
09:17:49  <dihedral> were they not considering sensorship via the dns servers? :-D
09:17:51  <planetmaker> yes indeed
09:18:04  <dihedral> that really cracked me up :-P
09:18:12  <dihedral> .... opendns? :-D
09:18:17  <norbert79> planetmaker: Yeah, I looked after the way how I can get to the files, I even have a prove of my--- (Impfungen)
09:18:39  <norbert79> planetmaker: So I can prove we lived there, also there is the certification of my father
09:19:32  <norbert79> We lived in the Braunschweiger Street in Magdeburg... On the first floor there was an old lady, who alwayxs looked for movement within the house.. Was creepy according to my mom :D
09:20:17  <norbert79> I still have an old 5 Mark DDR banknote from those times
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09:21:12  <planetmaker> he :-)
09:22:00  <planetmaker> dihedral: just use a DNS from another country. No need for any change but your DNS.
09:22:12  <planetmaker> Just don't use your provider's ;-)
09:22:14  <norbert79> or you use Google's DNS,
09:22:17  <planetmaker> ^
09:22:19  <planetmaker> for example
09:22:30  <norbert79> that works of course pretty well
09:22:46  <planetmaker> though google is meanwhile known to follow government restrictions...
09:22:58  <norbert79> crap... OpenDNS for ya then :)
09:24:46  <planetmaker> norbert79: did even then exist the "Hundertwasserhaus" in Magdeburg or is that newer?
09:25:27  <planetmaker> hm... newer
09:25:31  <norbert79> planetmaker: No idea, I was just born in 1979, so I only have a very few memories
09:25:39  <norbert79> we came back to Hungary in 1982
09:25:45  <dihedral> i refuse to use google dns ;-)
09:26:02  <planetmaker> oye. That's a bit ago :-)
09:26:07  <norbert79> planetmaker: Indeed :)
09:26:28  <planetmaker>
09:27:25  <norbert79> planetmaker: I once 'hugged' a coal heating system, and burned my wrists. My mom hurried with me to the hospital, and they didn't even touch me until they checked on my father's status through the former Volkspolizei... I was crying hours long till started my treatment. Luckily nothing is left from it on my wrists...
09:27:45  <planetmaker> outch
09:28:04  <norbert79> They were some strict times :)
09:28:10  <planetmaker> could be argued to be even against the oath of hippocrates
09:29:03  <norbert79> So thats why I am sure, that we must have at least 1 file on us, since we had no East German citizenship
09:29:12  <planetmaker> :-)
09:29:41  <norbert79> would be fun visiting Berlin once though :)
09:30:38  <planetmaker> changed A LOT
09:30:51  <planetmaker> I mean... it's nearly 30 years ;-)
09:31:18  <planetmaker> if you'd remember you'd not recognize it
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09:39:14  <__ln__> the Lehrter railway station has been slightly enhanced and so on
09:40:05  <planetmaker> slightly
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10:50:12  <norbert79> Back for a bit
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11:39:36  <fjb> Moin
11:40:54  <Rubidium> moi
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11:50:56  <fanioz> evening :)
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12:14:27  <fjb> You shall not mix ECC and nonECC RAM.
12:15:32  <SpComb> unless thy then continue counting to three
12:17:55  <Rubidium> I'd reckon that those would blend just fine when they're together
12:17:56  <fjb> It worked till I tried to boot.
12:18:49  <fjb> The timings also looked odd.
12:20:46  <SpComb> that's not very far
12:22:34  <fjb> But 2GB ECC RAM is still better than 1GB nonECC RAM.
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12:36:03  <dihedral> and is way more expensive :-P
12:37:35  <fjb> Not when you get it used.
12:38:09  <fjb> Old ECC RAM is less expensive because most mainboards can not use it.
12:40:24  <dihedral> most desktop mainboards ^^
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12:42:04  <Wolf01> hello
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12:44:21  <dihedral> hello Wolf01
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13:04:23  <Belugas> morning
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13:13:28  <_Terkhen_> hello Belugas
13:13:59  <Belugas> hello _Terkhen_ :)
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13:29:14  <xiong> Duck... and co-ver!
13:29:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like to propose a patch:
13:33:35  <Belugas> mmh...
13:33:41  <Belugas> i don't understand it
13:33:46  <Belugas> so it must be a good patch
13:39:42  <norbert79> Afternoon everyone... Boy, this is one hectic day
13:41:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: it prevents the "Refittable to: <17 cargos>" line in the buy vehicle window switching to "Refittable to: All but <15 exceptions>"
13:41:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it limits the number of exceptions to 7.
13:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't make any difference for the default cargos, but when using industry sets, the list of exceptions is practically useless...
13:43:35  <planetmaker> indeed
13:43:40  <Belugas> yeah, planetmaker told me about it as well.  Good job finding it
13:43:44  <Belugas> so...
13:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> this litterally took 5 minutes of grepping ;)
13:44:19  * Belugas svn ups
13:44:23  <planetmaker> :-D
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14:01:54  <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, I approve. Good idea.
14:02:41  <xiong> Now, I have spent quite a bit of time working up disjoint stations catchment areas and I have no idea what to do with the work.
14:03:44  <xiong> It can't go in forum; there are 8 screenshots plus the savegame, which is 6 attachments more than the limit of 3.
14:04:06  <xiong> I don't know if any of it comes up to the standard of the wiki.
14:04:37  <xiong> (Not 8 full-size shots!)
14:04:40  <guru3> setup a webpage maybe?
14:04:46  <guru3> then post on the forums with a link to the webpage
14:05:17  *** Fast2 [] has joined #openttd
14:05:23  <xiong> I see little purpose in Xiong's Private Little OpenTTD World.
14:05:49  <guru3> indeed
14:05:57  <guru3> you just need a place to stick some info and a bunch of screenshots
14:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause> you know, if you make 3 posts, you can have 9 attachments...
14:06:04  <planetmaker> <xiong> It can't go in forum; there are 8 screenshots plus the savegame, which is 6 attachments more than the limit of 3. <-- make two consecutive postings
14:06:16  <planetmaker> or three
14:06:25  <planetmaker> If needed it's accepted
14:06:35  <xiong> Meh. I'm more comfortable with MediaWiki anyway.
14:06:53  <planetmaker> but the wiki is not suitable for discussion
14:07:01  <xiong> I'll make a subpage of my userpage.
14:07:11  <xiong> Eh? What are the talk pages for?
14:07:26  <guru3> talk was a typo, it was supposed to be stalk
14:07:39  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:07:50  <xiong> Um, I can testify, wikistalking is easy. Been there.
14:08:17  *** fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:08:25  <guru3> i maintain that the internet these days is meant for stalking
14:08:57  <Eddi|zuHause> guru3: have you been stalking us here, or do you just have a highlight on "3"? :p
14:09:00  <xiong> This is a gumption trap I fall into frequently, stalled at some point near the beginning or end of a project, trying to figure out either the best way to set it up or deploy it.
14:09:11  <guru3> well i really really like transport tycoon :)
14:09:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but you say something about once per year :p
14:09:24  * planetmaker prefers OpenTTD
14:09:28  <xiong> Really, it's the same trap: interface with the Old Heads.
14:09:41  <guru3> (and i have a hilight on guru... every time someone asks for a c guru, or a pathfinding guru i get the message)
14:09:49  <planetmaker> the UI improvements are somewhat really helping the enjoyment factor a log :-)
14:09:54  <dihedral> guru3, o/
14:09:59  <guru3> o/
14:10:09  <planetmaker> s/log/lot/
14:10:12  <planetmaker> typo day it seems
14:10:26  <guru3> i know i don't speak frequently but i owe much to transport tycoon
14:10:32  <guru3> it's why i'm in civil engineering at al
14:10:34  <guru3> *after all
14:11:12  <planetmaker> hm... :-) I think I recall your name, too :-)
14:11:23  <planetmaker> From early, early PublicServer games, can that be?
14:11:26  <guru3> yeah
14:11:31  <guru3> i came along when multiplayer did
14:11:36  <planetmaker> :-)
14:11:39  <guru3> that was all i did that christmas
14:11:45  <guru3> play transport tycoon
14:11:48  <guru3> 0.3.5 and 0.3.6
14:11:58  <planetmaker> hehe
14:12:05  <guru3> i wrote the wiki page on connecting and stuff
14:12:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i presume that was one christmas earlier than i came here
14:12:43  <guru3>
14:12:54  <guru3> good to see some of my original images are still up there
14:13:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the internet doesn't forget :p
14:13:59  <guru3> yup
14:14:38  <guru3> Feature: [Network] banning system (mostly tnx to guru3) A server can ban people via ClientList using 'ban', 'unban', 'banlist'.
14:14:44  <guru3>
14:14:51  * guru3 remembers writing that patch
14:15:03  <planetmaker> :-)
14:15:42  <guru3> rcon as well, although it was a bit of a stretch for me
14:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you forgot writing the custom kickmessages patch :p
14:16:02  <planetmaker> he. And now there's even an (additional) admin bot interface ;-)
14:16:03  <guru3> probably my biggest junk of pure C work has been openttd patch stuff
14:16:13  <guru3> junk = xhunk
14:16:15  <guru3> *chunk
14:17:17  <guru3> actually the 0.3.6 patches i wrote are probably my only significant patches to a project ><
14:17:48  <planetmaker> you could change that :-P
14:18:09  <planetmaker> or you could finish the current PublicServer game :-P
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14:18:23  <norbert79> hmm, my first version of OpenTTD was afaik 0.4.7 or 0.4.5?
14:18:28  <norbert79> Can't recall anymore :)
14:18:40  <planetmaker> ^ something like that here, too
14:18:52  <planetmaker> Though I only really started playing OpenTTD around 0.5.3
14:19:09  <norbert79> I started at 0.4.7, I was so happy seeing my good old oldie alive again
14:19:15  <guru3> i'm not quite as motivated for coding these days as i once was
14:19:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if i actually had 0.3.x, but i definitely remember downloading 0.4.0, and the next week it was already obsolete
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14:19:37  <guru3> although if i was going to do something else for openttd i'd probably look at landscape generation
14:19:37  <planetmaker> :-P
14:19:50  <planetmaker> guru3, rivers!
14:19:54  <guru3> since ive been toying with that anyway off and on for the last 2 years
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14:20:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really play at that time, but later around r33xx or so i played nightlies
14:20:21  <norbert79> Well, I keep my balance between online cooperative playing in Hidden and Dangerous 2 Sabre Squadron and OpenTTD :)
14:20:32  <guru3> coop ftw o/
14:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and i came here discussing lack of elrails and pbs bugs
14:20:52  <planetmaker> it's still around, guru3 ;-)
14:21:03  <guru3> yeah, way bigger than i ever expected it to turn out too
14:21:06  <planetmaker> and you're not even in that channel! :-P
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14:21:38  <guru3> in some aspects ive sort of grown tired of transport tycoon
14:21:57  <guru3> it feels like i know what to do for almost every situation
14:22:08  <guru3> so that then i can't be bothered to actually do it
14:22:09  <planetmaker> but do you still?
14:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you haven't played cargodist yet ;)
14:22:18  <planetmaker> Many things changed in the last two or three years
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14:22:48  <guru3> i know somethings have changed
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14:23:00  <planetmaker> for example signaling ;-)
14:23:01  <guru3> but im just not good at sticking with something for a really long time
14:23:08  <guru3> i have to depart and come back to it later
14:23:28  <planetmaker> :-)
14:23:35  <guru3> but at heart i still love building single track trains :)
14:23:48  <norbert79> me too
14:23:49  <norbert79> :))
14:23:51  <guru3> it's huge networks that start to drive me nuts
14:24:06  <guru3> gets too repetitive or something like that
14:24:32  <guru3> i shall return though, never fear
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14:25:00  <guru3> i certainly haven't given up the game for all tiem
14:25:06  <davis> I got pretty tired of playing ottd in singleplayer , but recently i tried out cargo dist. and it made it fun again *advertising voice*
14:25:14  <davis> but for all seriousness , it makes the game more fun
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14:26:14  <planetmaker> the problem really is to get it seamless into the existing game and to not break it
14:26:21  <planetmaker> quak!
14:26:22  <planetmaker> :-)
14:26:46  <frosch123> moin :)
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14:42:53  <planetmaker> what's a "shadow topic" when moving postings?
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14:44:26  * Belugas has no clue
14:44:31  <Belugas> but Jordan stinks
14:44:44  <planetmaker> moved out of OpenTTD forums
14:45:44  <planetmaker> interestingly that were the only two reported ones ;-)
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14:46:42  <Belugas> i counted 5 occurences, but when forum told me first already reported, i suspected the others were too
14:47:43  <planetmaker> hm, seems they are. They're just not indicated the same way as I'm not mod there
14:48:08  <xiong> Arggh. I just ran into the jargon trap. What word describes unit buildings, from openttd's viewpoint? I mean to say that a paper mill is a single unit; it must be built or destroyed as a unit. A station, commonly, is not a unit because individual tiles can be added or dozed. But an airport is a unit, because you cannot doze some of it without dozing the rest.
14:48:27  <planetmaker> multi-tile building
14:48:46  <xiong> Um, a single station tile fits my description of a unit.
14:49:22  <xiong> "building"? "unit building"? I'm not trying to create more jargon; I'd like to know what you all call this thing.
14:50:30  <xiong> A single house is a unit; so is a bank. One is one tile, the other is two tiles. "Tile" certainly is not the word I seek.
14:51:34  <Belugas> as far as i know, there's no specific word describing either a multi-tile building that can be destroyed as a unit (like industries/houses) or can be "dozed" piece by piece like a station
14:51:35  <xiong> I like "building" for this; it is precise. But the common notion of "building", as a noun, tends to have become separated from its meaning as a verb.
14:51:39  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:51:52  <Belugas> so... we have buildings and... stations
14:52:02  <Belugas> and industries
14:52:03  <planetmaker> and industries
14:52:04  <planetmaker> :-)
14:52:07  <Belugas> heheh
14:52:09  <planetmaker> and objects :-)
14:52:09  <xiong> Ah, but stations are also buildings. They are built. So are industries.
14:52:28  <Belugas> yes, but we neever refer to stations as buildings
14:52:30  <planetmaker> and airports which behave different to RV and rail stations
14:52:37  <planetmaker> indeed, we don't
14:52:42  <xiong> Would you like me to say object? Because I would think that would include such objects as trees, trains, and cargos.
14:53:01  <Belugas> staitons are stations, airports can be refered as station as well, but most of the time, they are airports as well
14:53:31  <xiong> How do airports 'behave' differently from road or rail stations? I mean, I'm talking about static entities, not about their gameplay dynamics.
14:53:37  <Belugas> objects are different, and usage is already defined
14:54:21  <planetmaker> xiong, you can't bulldoze an airport tile
14:54:23  <xiong> Okay, well then: What class of things meets my definition of objects that can be built or unbuilt as units?
14:54:23  <Belugas> airports canne be "dozed" in pieces, nor road stations, nor docs.  only rail stations can
14:54:27  <planetmaker> Same as an industry tile
14:54:34  <planetmaker> you always destroy all or nothing of them
14:54:40  * Belugas nods
14:54:45  <xiong> planetmaker, That is what I said. An airport is a single building.
14:54:59  <planetmaker> yes
14:55:03  <Belugas> therfor uniqueness of behaviour while destruction is only for rail stations
14:55:04  <xiong> It is built all in one action; a single build-ing.
14:55:13  <planetmaker> Belugas, for road stations, too
14:55:29  <Belugas> mmmh?
14:55:41  <Belugas> that's more like merging stations, no?
14:55:49  <planetmaker> multi-tile road stations are easily done. And you can extend and modify them similar to rail stations
14:55:53  <planetmaker> Just no newgrf capability
14:56:37  <xiong> This fuzziness in jargon is what I'm trying to elimininate. One or more physical stations can comprise a single logical station.
14:57:13  <xiong> Said another way, a logical station can be a single physical station or a single combined station.
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14:58:17  <xiong> And a physical station is a station that consists of a single building -- where "building" is the word of which I'm uncertain, since (even just here in chan) some want to exclude stations from that class of objects.
14:58:21  <planetmaker> You might clarify something which is easily explained by a few words, but where a single word will never be clear
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14:58:58  <planetmaker> talking of 'logical' and 'physical' stations certainly wouldn't help _me_ to understand things
14:58:59  <Belugas> xiong, i think that there is no real fuziness. I think it's more related to you wanting to generalize concepts that are not meant to be generalized. Note that the exercise is not bad, it might lead to something constructive
14:59:00  <xiong> Um, matter of philosophy. A single term is always precise if it is precisely defined.
14:59:52  <xiong> Belugas, The fuzziness is between single, logical, combined, and physical stations.
15:00:03  <xiong> s/between/among/
15:00:11  <planetmaker> I'd say those words are fuzzy
15:00:21  <xiong> That's why I'm sharpening them.
15:00:31  <planetmaker> but an airport is and airport is an airport
15:00:37  <planetmaker> which can be part of a station
15:00:44  <planetmaker> and a station can have many parts.
15:00:51  <planetmaker> For a rail station every tile is a separate part
15:00:54  <planetmaker> that's all :-)
15:01:24  <planetmaker> But I might see it too simplified. Who knows
15:03:19  <xiong> "station part" eq "physical station"
15:04:04  <xiong> I have no difficulty with aliases for common terms but I would like to establish relationships. I do object to terms whose meanings so overlap that distinctions are lost.
15:04:06  <Belugas> i understand the idea behind xiong's attempt, but i have to go along with planetmaker.  the fuziness is not really there, at least in our mind.  A word cannot always be accurate.  plus, it might not be necesseray either
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15:05:17  <planetmaker> ha, 3333 postings in tt-forum ;-)
15:05:35  <xiong> Okay, well look guys, I'm a dialectical materialist, so I'm not really on board with statements like "a word cannot always be accurate". I agree that some words are defined imprecisely but that does not mean that a word cannot be defined precisely.
15:06:16  <Belugas> that is true.  as long as there is a nned to define such a word.
15:06:17  <Belugas> like...
15:06:18  <planetmaker> xiong, but it means that it's pointless to try to re-define an every-day word in a community where people use everyday language
15:06:27  <Belugas> the inuits have countless words to define snow
15:06:33  <planetmaker> ^  :-)
15:06:34  <Belugas> we do not need that much specificaiotns
15:06:43  <Belugas> if you undertand my thinking
15:06:50  <xiong> If you want to be able to make precise statements, you need precise terms.
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15:07:23  <Belugas> we do: combined stations, airports, station tile
15:07:28  <Belugas> there we go :)
15:07:33  <xiong> I realize that there is a whole frame of reference in which precise distinctions are not only unnecessary but plain obnoxious. Sorry.
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15:08:05  <planetmaker> xiong, that's why we talk of station tile
15:08:11  <xiong> I'm looking to define "physical station". It is not the same as "station tile".
15:08:17  <planetmaker> not?
15:08:30  <xiong> An airport is a physical station.
15:08:51  <planetmaker> an airport has airport tiles
15:08:53  <Belugas> a rail station is a physical station
15:09:31  <xiong> Correct, Belugas. Although you can build more than one physical rail station with a click, you need not -- you can build or doze a single tile.
15:09:31  <planetmaker> but for airports you can only delete all or none
15:09:38  <xiong> Right.
15:10:10  <planetmaker> so I wonder why 'airport' needs a different name :-)
15:10:15  <Belugas> so we know, by definition, that airport means a staiton that is a whole , unbreakable unit
15:10:31  <xiong> Right. "physical station" is an unbreakable unit.
15:10:40  <Belugas> nope
15:10:42  <xiong> I used the word "unit" awhile back.
15:11:00  <xiong> nope?
15:11:01  <Belugas> you are doing sophism saying that
15:11:06  <planetmaker> but 'physical station' is not an established term. Nor does the word imply anything in particular
15:11:09  <Belugas> a cat has fur
15:11:15  <_Terkhen_> road or rail station tiles, docks and airports are unbreakable units
15:11:15  <Belugas> a dog has fur
15:11:18  <Belugas> a cat is a dog
15:11:22  <Belugas> sophis,
15:11:24  <Belugas> sophism
15:11:26  <xiong> Well, I'm trying to establish it. I need the word to explain what a combined station is.
15:11:44  <planetmaker> a combined station is a station which has at least two modes of transport
15:11:49  <planetmaker> e.g. rail and road
15:12:03  <planetmaker> just to show you that that wording is already taken ;-)
15:12:10  <planetmaker> overloaded notation usually is not helpful
15:12:23  <xiong> Ah. So, you don't consider a station to be a combined station if it consist of only one mode of transport? Does that include disjoint stations?
15:12:59  <planetmaker> distant-joined stations are just that: distant-joined stations
15:13:04  <planetmaker> No need for another word either
15:13:13  <xiong> If I build a disjoint station out of two rail station tiles, is it not a combined station?
15:13:19  <planetmaker> no
15:13:32  <planetmaker> it's a rail station and a distant-joined station
15:13:34  <xiong> What "another word" do you mean, that is inessential?
15:13:44  <planetmaker> But that's _my_ words for it. Another person might see that differently
15:14:23  <Belugas> ho no... we do need a dictionnary...
15:14:29  <planetmaker> :-)
15:14:43  <xiong> Well, you see, Belugas, we have a wiki. I'm busy writing definitions.
15:14:51  <planetmaker> sometimes distant-joined station is also referred to as "walked station"
15:15:07  <planetmaker> It's an anachronism from the time where distant-join was not present
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15:15:25  <xiong> That's fine, planetmaker. Aliases are okay.
15:16:00  <Belugas> yeh... i remember the times...
15:16:01  <xiong> But my question was, Is a disjoint station a combined station? And I think you said, No, not always.
15:17:10  <xiong> If it's important to you to keep central terms loosely defined then what I'm trying to do will not be appreciated.
15:17:23  <planetmaker> combined implies for me different vehicle types
15:17:29  * _Terkhen_ agrees with planetmaker
15:17:40  <planetmaker> :-)
15:18:03  <xiong> Okay then. Please distinguish between a single rail tile and two adjacent rail tiles that are a single logical station.
15:18:14  <planetmaker> they're just one station
15:18:17  <_Terkhen_> both are stations to me
15:18:20  <planetmaker> each is a station tile
15:18:26  <xiong> They are two different things.
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15:18:54  <xiong> Also, distinguish between one airport and two airports build adjacent to one another.
15:19:04  <planetmaker> station = sum of all station tiles which add to the big something
15:19:05  <xiong> s/build/built/
15:19:16  <planetmaker> two airports never can be part of one station
15:19:20  <xiong> ?
15:19:28  <_Terkhen_> one of those rail stations has two tracks, and the other only one, but both are stations
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15:19:44  <davis> i think there's some patch that allows more than one habour-port on one station
15:19:49  <davis> could possibly extended to airports
15:19:54  <xiong> _Terkhen_, To say that these things are the same doesn't help. Need two words.
15:20:03  <_Terkhen_> why?
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15:20:39  <xiong> Let's say, in the case of the patch, that two docks are built adjacent. Please tell the difference between the station formed from one dock and that formed from two docks.
15:20:40  <Belugas> 'cause he's building a dictionnary
15:21:03  <Belugas> is he?
15:21:05  <_Terkhen_> you don't need a term for everything, you can complete a term with adjectives and descriptions
15:21:06  <planetmaker> xiong, in one case it's two stations, in the other it's one station
15:21:28  <planetmaker> one station with two docks
15:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: two docks can't be part of the same station either...
15:21:34  <xiong> planetmaker, I stipulated the patch that makes the two adjacent docks a single logical station.
15:21:46  <planetmaker> yes. Then it's still one station. With two docks
15:22:08  <xiong> Okay then. For the big money: Please distinguish between the two.
15:22:08  <planetmaker> same with a rail station. a 4x4 and an 8x4 tile station are both stations.
15:22:11  <planetmaker> Just of different size
15:22:30  <planetmaker> I don't need a separate word for a 1-tile station, for a 2-tile station and so forth
15:22:37  <planetmaker> that's what I have the numbers for
15:22:37  <xiong> You cannot speak of either dock as a dock tile; they are each 2 tiles.
15:22:41  <_Terkhen_> single dock station and multiple dock station
15:22:49  * planetmaker agrees with _Terkhen_
15:22:56  <_Terkhen_> each dock is an entity anyways, even if they are made of two tiles
15:23:14  <_Terkhen_> the concept of station tile as something separate only makes sense for road and rail stations anyways
15:23:16  <xiong> Okay, _Terkhen_ I like "entity". I used "unit" before.
15:23:51  <xiong> I agree; airports and docks are units that cannot be broken down into tiles, not for building/dozing purposes.
15:23:53  <_Terkhen_> I understand entity as something that can be a station by itself
15:23:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought we had evolved past the useless nomenclature debates...
15:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> if you can't describe something with one word, use two.
15:24:47  <xiong> Well, you're welcome to do better. I'm trying to define "disjoint station".
15:25:00  <davis> i'd like tile by tile constructable airports / docks tho
15:25:06  <_Terkhen_> what's wrong with using disjoint station, separated station, walked station and the like?
15:25:18  <xiong>
15:25:32  <xiong> Not a problem; I think that definition is good.
15:25:40  <xiong> I might add aliases to it.
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15:26:27  <Belugas> davis, keep on dreaming for that lego airport ;)
15:26:48  <planetmaker> ^ :-P
15:27:04  <xiong> I just did.
15:27:34  <xiong> So, walking the links, I need to define "logical station".
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15:30:14  <xiong>
15:30:33  <xiong> Defining "logistics" is easy enough.
15:31:19  <xiong> Defining "combined station" is not too bad if "physical station" is well-defined.
15:31:43  <xiong> But I'm trying to define "physical station" as the unbreakable, buildable, dozable unit of stationness.
15:32:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you are approaching this the wrong way
15:32:36  <xiong> And -- to get back to my original question -- I'm looking for the word that describes all units of building.
15:32:55  <Eddi|zuHause> words don't need to be "well-defined" outside a technical context. they need to be "intuitively clear"
15:32:56  <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, Lead me.
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15:33:13  <xiong> This is a technical context.
15:33:25  <_Terkhen_> to my knowlegde there is no existing generical term that means what you want
15:33:28  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's not
15:33:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the source code is a technical context
15:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but playing the game is not
15:34:22  <norbert79> laterz
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15:34:31  <xiong> Well, Eddi|zuHause, there we part ways. Sorry. I'm going to suggest that my entire discussion -- maybe everything I say -- is going to be annoying to you. I'm a dialectical materialist and I view pretty much everything in that context.
15:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> we call that "Betriebsblindheit"
15:35:14  <xiong> We can handle this in a couple of ways. You can respect my orientation as fixed, and permit me my folly. Or you can try to change it and get annoyed when it proves fixed.
15:35:37  <Eddi|zuHause> if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail
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15:35:53  <xiong> I don't seek to impose this context on other people at all times. But I won't be moved from it.
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15:36:11  <dihedral> xiong, i have something for you:
15:36:21  <dihedral> a little "me me me" :P
15:36:44  <xiong> Wrong analogy. I don't have a single hammer; I have thousands of tools, all different. The other context waves at all of them and says, "tools".
15:37:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you have 300 different kinds of hammers.
15:37:36  <Eddi|zuHause> but none of them allow you to handle a screw.
15:37:58  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, 'correctly' handle a screw :-D
15:38:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i noticed my mistake ;)
15:38:41  <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, Look, this is the wrong discussion for you. I'm an expert at cutting things up and sorting them into bins. You don't like that; you want things to be a bit fuzzy. I'm not trying to change your viewpoint but there's not much point trying to change mine.
15:38:49  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: i'm just trying to prevent you from going down a road that nobody will follow you on...
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15:39:02  <xiong> I didn't ask for followership.
15:39:11  <xiong> I asked for leadership.
15:39:17  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: this is a community.
15:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no "leader"
15:39:39  <xiong> What do you want?
15:39:50  <dihedral> i want +q
15:40:04  <xiong> Specifically, what do you want of me? I think you missed the part where I said I thought my quest was going to be annoying to you.
15:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: i want to guide you into a direction where other people can benefit from your work.
15:40:12  <planetmaker> <xiong> I asked for leadership. <-- and if all others say "you might want to re-consider" you go that way nevertheless? Then it's not asking for leadership ;-)
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15:40:26  <xiong> If that involves abandoning dialectical materialism, your effort is futile.
15:40:44  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: i'm asking for compromise
15:40:52  <dihedral> \o/
15:40:55  * xiong laughs
15:40:57  <dihedral> you cannot win with him
15:41:15  <xiong> There is no compromise possible. If there were, you can be sure I'd extend that courtesy.
15:41:22  <dihedral> it's like locking 5 kids in one room with 1 toy and expecting them to play fairly
15:41:25  <dihedral> it just will not work
15:41:39  <xiong> To me, everything is a technical discussion, involving precise definitions, precise statements.
15:41:55  * dihedral votes for +q on mr. xiong
15:42:00  <dihedral> for 5 minutes
15:42:06  <dihedral> make that 10
15:42:08  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: to me, "dialectical materialism" is an extremistic viewpoint, and i'm trying to mediate.
15:42:13  <xiong> All imprecision is bad. Some imprecision must be tolerated, for the actual elimination of it is tedious.
15:42:26  * Rubidium votes for +q on those that talk to him as I've not seen anything from him for days
15:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: i'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's probably not optimal most of the time.
15:42:36  <dihedral> :-D
15:42:39  <xiong> Correct. You're trying to have a metaphysical discussion with someone whose metaphysical outlook has settled.
15:42:40  <dihedral> Rubidium, good point
15:44:03  <xiong> I've just finished reading, for perhaps the sixth time, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I disagree with Pirsig. He's had a lot of time to try to change my mind but still, I disagree with him.
15:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: the key point here is the much quoted "TMWFTLB"... there's no sense in going through all the hoops to find a dialectically precise definition of every little instance in the game, but nobody will benefit from these definitions
15:44:29  <xiong> Do we all see how it's probably not going to do any good to try to change my mind now, here?
15:45:01  <dihedral> @kick xiong
15:45:05  * dihedral sighs
15:45:06  <dihedral> :-D
15:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that would be the perfect timing ;)
15:45:33  <planetmaker> @op dih
15:45:33  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: dih is not in #openttd.
15:45:37  <dihedral> @kick xiong
15:45:38  <planetmaker> @op dihedral
15:45:41  *** mode/#openttd [+o dihedral] by DorpsGek
15:45:45  *** xiong was kicked from #openttd by dihedral [bye byes]
15:45:54  <dihedral> @deop
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15:45:56  <dihedral> oh
15:46:09  *** mode/#openttd [-o dihedral] by dihedral
15:46:09  <dihedral> :-)
15:46:16  <dihedral> that is not my normal role ^^
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15:46:23  <dihedral> damint
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15:46:29  <dihedral> should have waited that little moment
15:46:31  <xiong> What was that? I wasn't the least bit rude.
15:46:58  <planetmaker> but to quite some extend annoying larger parts of the active channel
15:47:02  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't see how "i'm not moving. *stomp*" is not rude, i can't help you anymore. sorry
15:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> probably a "not" too much...
15:47:28  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, the word 'anymore' is wrong :-D
15:48:03  <xiong> You can always say, "Please don't talk about this."
15:48:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that's precisely what i did the whole discussion long ;)
15:48:50  <dihedral> we just did
15:49:07  <Belugas> xiong, that reminds me of something that really bugs me:  your nick has a distinctive chinese sound, as well as your nick on forums and even your avatar. Yet you claim you are not chinese.  That really confuses me.  Can you shed some lights? that will appease my mind :)
15:49:23  <xiong> Belugas, Gladly.
15:50:21  <xiong> I lived for several years in China. You might say, in some ways, some Chinese-ness has seeped in -- the great big lead sledgehammer has done what Pirsig could not. It's a very tiny shift but important to me.
15:51:37  <Belugas> haaaa...right :)
15:52:10  <Lakie> Rubidium: I'm made two diffs though I doubt you can apply one after the other.
15:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... there haven't been any commits today...
15:53:21  <Rubidium> ofcourse I can, I might get a load of rejects though :)
15:53:40  <Lakie> Hehe
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15:53:55  <Lakie> Well, I made one which is basically the stuff from gw add to gr.
15:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> a dialectical masochist would say "successfully apply" :p
15:54:19  * Lakie now fetches them out of virtual machine
15:54:21  <Belugas> mmh... looks like someone has silenced someone...
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15:55:12  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, define Successfully :-P
15:55:22  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: returns with exit code 0?
15:55:23  <dihedral> hehe
15:55:37  <dihedral> ah :-P
15:56:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i can play this very well, thank you :p
15:56:16  <Rubidium> (patch -i foes || true) <- that'll apply succesfully :)
15:56:24  <xiong> My handle, /xiong/ is /pinyin/ for the character you see as my Gravatar. The character means 'Bear', which is what people call me in US.
15:57:52  <xiong> The character, together with 2 others, is my legal name in China. It is an exact translation of my usual name in US.
15:59:08  <xiong> Online, I find the handle 'Bear' or 'bear' to be difficult to acquire; it's usually taken. So, I generally use 'xiong'.
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16:09:56  <dihedral> \o/ found a nice way of extending java applications :-)
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16:30:14  <fjb> Use classes?
16:41:28  <azaghal> Yo
16:42:56  <__ln__> Tú
16:43:05  <_Terkhen_> hi azaghal
16:45:55  <planetmaker> moin
16:47:10  <__ln__> does someone know about english poetry and iambic pentameter?
16:48:51  <frosch123> better do a complete hexameter
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17:01:42  <xiong> __ln__, Yes. I do. How can I help? This being extremely OT for chan, would you like to /query me?
17:02:04  <xiong> I can probably tell you all you want to know about iambic pentameter.
17:02:25  <xiong> I can just bet you are trying to write an Elizabethan sonnet.
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17:12:29  <__ln__> xiong: ok, does e.g. the line "My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song" follow the pentameter?
17:12:41  <__ln__> off-topic? no, it's english.
17:12:50  <Belugas> heheh
17:13:17  <__ln__> because in that line the "midnight" kind of messes things up if pentameter is about syllables.
17:14:15  <xiong> __ln__, Seriously, I'm terrified of getting into this topic on this chan. Please, /query me.
17:14:28  <xiong> Or I'll /query you.
17:14:32  <__ln__> hold on
17:14:43  <__ln__> -> #openttd-poetry
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17:19:27  <Belugas> that community will never cease to amaze me hehehe
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17:27:46  * azaghal waits for a "Why, oh why did I build that loop so short?" poem
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17:29:30  <Belugas> "The Rime Of The Ancien Train Driver"
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17:43:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21003 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt spanish.txt ukrainian.txt unfinished/thai.txt):
17:43:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:43:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by marek995
17:43:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
17:43:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: thai - 5 changes by reindeeruz
17:43:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 1 changes by Fixer
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18:36:58  <perk11> тся
18:37:15  <perk11> sry
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18:43:01  <andythenorth> evening :D
18:43:49  <__ln__> whom are you laughing at?!
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18:44:38  <andythenorth> I am gleeful
18:45:33  <planetmaker> hm, how do I offer a refit option for a wagon for a single cargo but different properties, so that both are shown as an option?
18:45:53  <planetmaker> cargo subtypes?
18:46:08  <planetmaker> hm... probably ;-)
18:49:25  <andythenorth> cargo subtypes
18:49:33  <andythenorth> HEQS trams do it
18:49:38  <andythenorth> meanwhile:
18:51:05  <planetmaker> thanks andythenorth :-)
18:51:26  <planetmaker> also hello :-)
18:51:43  <andythenorth> found the code in HEQS?
18:51:57  <andythenorth> line 111 in industrial_tram_wagons_3.pnfo
18:52:00  <planetmaker> I didn't look for it. I rather was interested in the concept.
18:52:18  <planetmaker> but thanks :-)
18:52:20  <andythenorth> :)
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18:57:45  <Eddi|zuHause> anybody have an idea how to do a unionfs between an sshfs and a local disk, so that files added by the remote computer are automatically shown, while local files are saved on the local disk, and by usage of a script both are synched?
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19:10:41  <Yexo> good evening
19:11:22  <Rubidium> evenin' Yexo
19:11:48  <planetmaker> moin Yexo
19:12:11  <Yexo> hello Rubidium and planetmaker :)
19:13:44  <andythenorth> hello yexo :)
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19:20:30  <dihedral> Was there still something you wanted me to do regarding admin network docs, Rubidium ?
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19:23:02  <Rubidium> don't know anymore. Have you looked at my diff? You talked about some other change after my diff, have you looked into that?
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19:32:10  <dihedral> <- i did update it yesterday
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19:51:03  <Xaroth> dihedral: nice
19:51:31  <Xaroth> might want to make sure that there is sufficient room for backward/forward compatibility
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19:52:35  <dihedral> thanks
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20:01:02  <Rubidium> dihedral: content looks fine, though I've got my doubts on some of the sentences themselves
20:01:37  <Rubidium> maybe you can let someone native English check the sentences
20:03:02  * andythenorth reads it
20:03:20  <dihedral> i am native english!
20:04:46  <andythenorth> it reads pretty good :)
20:11:00  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21004 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#3746]: chat/console messages got sometimes messed up due to LTR names in RTL translations and vice-versa
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20:21:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21005 /trunk/docs/admin_network.txt: -Document: the admin network protocol on a high(er) level (dihedral)
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20:43:01  <GT> section 4 of the admin_network.txt: they ave asked --> have asked ? (but I am not natively English)
20:46:29  <GT> Section 3: Not supported AdminUpdateType --> An unsupported AdminUpdateType
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20:47:51  * Rubidium blames andy
20:48:27  <GT> section 8: is send --> is sent
20:48:58  <andythenorth> the problem is that english is very flexible :P
20:49:06  <GT> I'mnot
20:49:21  <andythenorth> native english speakers often make bad english 'just work'
20:49:34  <avdg> good guys, are we fighting blamewar? :p
20:49:46  <andythenorth> battle!!
20:49:48  <GT> if possible
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20:52:38  <Hirundo> section 2: "However, [upon] asking for an invalid AdminUpdateType or a not supported AdminUpdateFrequency you will be disconnected from the server with NETWORK_ERROR_ILLEGAL_PACKET" <- missing 'upon' here?
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20:53:51  <planetmaker> either that or some other wording near disconnected
20:54:37  <andythenorth> 'will cause you to be disconnected'
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20:54:50  <andythenorth> reads fine to me as written though
20:55:09  <andythenorth> I correct much worse mistakes by native speakers every day
20:56:13  <_Terkhen_> good night
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20:56:24  <andythenorth> ha he was quick
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20:57:14  <dihedral> i never said i was not legastanic :-P
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20:59:05  <Rubidium> too bad such comments usually only come after something has been committed
20:59:33  <dihedral> GT: write a patch? :-P
20:59:37  * dihedral chuckles :-P
21:01:00  <frosch123> dihedral: maybe you want to compensate for it by translating mi2 to english? :p
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21:02:43  <GT> legastanic: a near google whack
21:04:11  <dihedral> i was actually quite serious about that ^^
21:05:08  <GT> the patch or the legatanic bit
21:05:13  <GT> ?
21:05:45  <dihedral> the legastenic bit
21:09:19  * GT still wonders what legastanic is, something like dyslectic?
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21:14:06  <andythenorth> good night
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21:14:28  <dihedral> GT, ah - i was using the german word :-D
21:16:28  <GT> kein Problem, gave me the chance to learn a new word
21:17:15  <dihedral> hehe
21:17:30  <frosch123> now you only need to spell it correctly :p
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21:21:36  <GT> of all words, why would legasthenik need to be spelled correctly?
21:22:00  <planetmaker> dyslexic maybe, though ;-)
21:22:10  <dihedral> hehe
21:22:33  <dihedral> i do my very best and fail :-P
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21:24:03  <GT> join the club
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21:26:16  <frosch123> night
21:26:21  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:26:24  <GT> Ύυσλεκτικά (strange people, the English)
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22:11:04  <enr1x> hi guys
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22:11:21  <enr1x> Rubidium: thanks for the translation privileges (i'm kiike on the translator site)
22:11:32  <enr1x> i have a question though: when exactly can a town accept goods?
22:11:51  <__ln__> when it has some specific type of building(s)
22:11:54  <enr1x> i am playin in subtropical for the first time, and the town i was sending goods to shrank for lack of food
22:11:57  <planetmaker> when there are enough houses in range
22:12:01  <planetmaker> which accept them
22:12:09  <planetmaker> goods != food
22:12:15  <enr1x> yeah i know
22:12:18  <planetmaker> And it doesn't shrink for lack of whatever
22:12:21  <enr1x> but i started with a goods network
22:12:33  <planetmaker> it just doesn't grow
22:12:49  <planetmaker> there are some randome fluctuations possible, though
22:12:53  <enr1x> oh really? but it initially accepted goods and now it won't,
22:13:13  <planetmaker> yes. when one goods-accepting house is replaced by some other
22:13:30  <planetmaker> and then the acceptance in the station's vicinity drops below the threashold for acceptance
22:13:58  <enr1x> oh too bad, now i have three idle trains
22:14:05  <planetmaker> that can happen for towns which just accept something
22:14:16  <enr1x> about 200 good crates per month wasted
22:14:19  <planetmaker> or rather stations which just accept some town cargo
22:14:33  <planetmaker> tryo to cover maybe more of the town, if possible and not yet done
22:14:39  <planetmaker> *try
22:15:02  <enr1x> planetmaker: i cover most of the town, just that there is no building that accepts goodsa
22:15:06  <enr1x> *goods
22:15:17  <enr1x> just passenges, mail, water and food
22:16:06  <enr1x> can i influence in some way so that i get a goods-accepting building?
22:16:22  <planetmaker> well, houses accept varying degrees of mail, pax, goods or food
22:16:35  <enr1x> so i just have to wait a bit, right?
22:16:38  <planetmaker> you have no influence on that. You need to grow the town. Thus provide food
22:16:55  <planetmaker> A town which grows is likely to expand is likely to grow goods-accepting buildings
22:16:57  <enr1x> ok, that's what i am doing so far
22:17:13  <enr1x> i understand that the amount of food won't do anything on the rate of growth, right?
22:17:14  <planetmaker> and provide passenger service
22:17:21  <planetmaker> yes, correct
22:17:29  <planetmaker> just one parcel of food per month
22:17:37  <planetmaker> everything else is luxury
22:19:27  <planetmaker> a town in desert needs necessarily food. And growth speed reaches its maximum if you have five (or  more) well-serviced stations within the towns influence area
22:19:43  <planetmaker> whatever cargo type they transport is of no importance
22:20:55  <enr1x> ok, thanks for the help, planetmaker
22:21:03  <planetmaker> you're welcome
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22:43:40  <xiong> I have bought a tile by demolishing existing road and building new road in the same place; but then I marked it 'blocked' by marking it one-way against both ways. I think the town erased the markings and built a grade crossing, with results not good. Must I always build a structure to block grade-crossing building?
22:45:18  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause> one-way does not prevent town growth
22:47:19  <glx> rail does :)
22:47:30  <glx> the right rail of course
22:47:42  <dihedral> but it should prevent other road tiles to join that tile
22:48:09  <xiong> I don't want to prevent town growth. Nor have I. I built road right across the tracks and blocked it on either side.
22:48:16  <dihedral> and the town does not remove one way markings on a road tiles, does it?
22:48:42  <dihedral> xiong, poste a screenshot
22:48:44  <Eddi|zuHause> crossings can't have one-way markings, so they are removed
22:49:13  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, i thought, if you have the one way markings, and then try to make a crossing, it would generally fail
22:49:17  <xiong> These are not crossings. I speak of tiles adjacent to where the grade crossing used to be.
22:49:20  <dihedral> or does then town override that
22:49:22  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: you can prevent the town from building a crossing by building a crossing on the adjacent road
22:49:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean pure road crossings, not road-rail crossings
22:50:33  <xiong> There are buildings to either side of the contested tile.
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22:50:48  <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't understand what you mean
22:51:22  <xiong> Here is a tile. It is now a dead end at the rail, since I long ago removed the grade crossing. Also, I marked it one-way against both ways.
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22:51:41  <xiong> I don't see how that can morph or alter over time.
22:51:46  <glx> screenshot will be easier
22:51:52  <xiong> But amazingly, it did -- twice.
22:52:04  <xiong> Is it that complex?
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23:02:58  <xiong> -- before and after, but not before the inevitable fireball.
23:03:10  <xiong> I mean, not after the fireball.
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23:03:57  <xiong> You notice that on the SE side, I built a structure to block growth absolutely -- and besides, I mean to build another track.
23:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a bug
23:05:27  <SmatZ> it's a feture
23:05:34  <SmatZ> feature, even
23:05:40  <xiong> So, just so I can go in peace: The situation I show in the first shot -- the top shot -- is at least supposed to be stable? If I don't monkey with it, no vehicle should cross the do-not-enter tile?
23:06:15  <SmatZ> where is a "do-not-enter" tile?
23:06:28  <xiong> A one-way against both ways.
23:06:54  <xiong> It shows in the NW corner of the top shot.
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23:06:56  <SmatZ> towns don't care about onewayness
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23:07:25  <xiong> I don't even know what that means, SmatZ. Towns don't have vehicles, either.
23:07:41  <SmatZ> if town removed a onewayness-status, then it is a bug
23:07:43  <xiong> It is company vehicles that are smashing into one another.
23:07:53  <xiong> So, just so I can go in peace: The situation I show in the first shot -- the top shot -- is at least supposed to be stable? If I don't monkey with it, no vehicle should cross the do-not-enter tile?
23:08:15  * SmatZ does monkeys with xiong
23:08:17  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: the upper half of the picture shows red dots on the road behind the rail [= forbid entering]. apparently after the town grows over the rail, the red dots are gone
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23:09:38  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, I see no red dots, but that can be because I am kind of colourblind
23:09:51  <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, I didn't make myself clear. The town grew over the rails long ago. Just now, within a few game days, I dealt with a grade incident by removing the grade crossing, marking the do-not-enter tile, and thinking I was done. Then, another crash at the same exact spot. The adjacent roads have bridges on them; I'm not mistaken about the spot.
23:11:04  <xiong> When the rubble cleared after both the first and second crash, I found the bottom shot situation.
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23:11:36  <xiong> I can't swear that I left it as the top shot before the first crash but I'm certain that's how I left it between the first and second crashes.
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23:12:52  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: i can't reproduce it, though...
23:12:53  <xiong> If that is unexpected and a bug then I'm surprised nobody has noticed it previously.
23:13:48  <xiong> I think it was a freak that it happened to me twice in the matter of a few minutes. But you see that I built the station structure and a streetcar depot there on the SE side; I was reacting to similar stuff I saw earlier.
23:14:53  <xiong> I just didn't notice it *blatantly* as a weirdness. I couldn't be absolutely certain which state I had left a grade crossing in, before the crash brought it to my attention.
23:15:57  <xiong> I did draw roads over many rails and block them on both sides, hoping to encourage growth without inviting fireballs. This worked well for growth, although I feared it wouldn't. It did not work well for fireballs.
23:16:09  <xiong> So, bug or feature?
23:16:46  <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: if it's a bug, i can't reproduce it in trunk...
23:17:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so either you have an autosave, which can repeat the problem
23:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> or you're the only one who ever has seen that...
23:18:41  <xiong> Well, I have to go earn money now. I will put this down as a thing to do.
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23:18:52  <xiong> See you.
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23:30:49  <avdg> <3 networking
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23:47:14  <Eddi|zuHause> err... i have a conceptual problem with imagining a "Heigtmap of the prairies"...
23:47:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it should be _ALL FLAT_
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23:49:42  <__ln__> it would sink into sea
23:50:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder why nobody ever implemented exporting a heightmap from a scenario/savegame
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23:51:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean it shouldn't be fundamentally different from making a screenshot
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