Log for #openttd on 21st November 2010:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:03:42  <Samu> When removing a rail station, do not leave track under non-station tiles (r20990)
00:03:52  <Samu> :(
00:12:18  <Samu> google sucks, I look for r20990 and I don't get what I want
00:12:25  <Samu> I don't know why everyone likes google
00:13:47  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: didn't you mean literally?
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00:14:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, i certainly did not mean "person aged 14 or younger"
00:15:15  <Samu> i just removed a station tile, the track remained there
00:15:29  <Samu> so I tried to look for 20990 and I can't find it
00:15:30  *** dfox [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:16:26  <Eddi|zuHause> @commit 20990
00:16:28  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by smatz :: r20990 trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp (2010-10-18 17:06:20 UTC)
00:16:29  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Fix: when removing a rail station, don't leave track under non-station tiles
00:17:18  <SmatZ> Samu: how did you know you should be looking for r20990?
00:17:39  <Samu> it was in the changelog
00:17:50  <Samu> changelog.txt
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00:22:06  <glx> station or non-station ?
00:22:46  <glx> non-station being station where train can't run
00:23:53  <Samu> i'm confused
00:24:04  <Samu> I planted a station
00:24:15  <Samu> then i click the bulldozer
00:24:18  <Samu> and station
00:24:24  <Samu> and i click on a station tile
00:24:32  <Samu> and I see the rail track
00:24:39  <Samu> the station tile is gone
00:24:43  <Samu> but the rail is not
00:24:58  <glx> the rail was visible before removing the station ?
00:25:04  <Samu> ye
00:25:09  <glx> that's why :)
00:25:26  <Samu> I'm still confused
00:25:33  <glx> rail is removed only if the rail was not visible
00:25:39  <glx> newgrf feature
00:26:40  <Samu> you mean I can remove track from a station but keep the station?
00:26:47  <glx> no
00:27:04  <glx> I mean there are station tiles with no rail visible
00:27:19  <glx> like a car park
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00:29:26  <glx> <-- the warehouse with green roofs are station tiles
00:29:33  <glx> but they have no rails
00:30:09  <Samu> tar xz bundles, does that mean all bananas content will come compressed?
00:30:23  <Samu> that's awesome
00:30:35  <glx> they already come compressed
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00:32:00  <Samu> wow, I didn't know that
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00:36:47  <Samu> how much is a KiB?
00:37:13  <Rubidium> 8 times as much as a Kib
00:37:48  <Samu> download size for NoCAB 2.1.2 - 92,2 KiB
00:38:14  <Samu> but on my computer it says 440 KB
00:38:35  <Samu> does the file come compressed and then is decompressed?
00:39:17  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
00:39:24  <Samu> cool
00:40:03  <Rubidium> bah... the UTC CET difference is too small
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00:40:34  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean one hour is not enough?
00:41:11  <Rubidium> it makes noticing you're looking at a UTC clock harder
00:41:41  <Rubidium> e.g. if the UTC clock would be saying 13:42, it'd be quite obvious for me it's UTC and not local time
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00:52:41  <Samu> winrar won at compressing NoCAB
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00:53:48  <Samu> bananas is using gzip from what I can tell
00:56:59  <Samu> there's 3 1.0.5 servers, I joined the italian one
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02:45:03  <Samu> how do I send money to a company if there's no one playing it atm?
02:45:18  <SmatZ> you can't
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02:45:36  <Samu> cool
02:45:48  <Samu> I'm exploiting 3 companies
02:46:23  <SmatZ> server admins won't like you
02:46:44  <Samu> they were unprotected and no one in there
02:47:03  <SmatZ> if you think what you do is nice and fair, it's fine
02:47:09  <SmatZ> but it doesn't sound so
02:47:16  <Samu> I'm paying their loan
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02:47:27  <SmatZ> ok :)
02:47:30  <Samu> and completed 2 routes that seemed incomplete
02:47:42  <SmatZ> then you are nice :)
02:47:58  <Samu> i wanted to pay each others loan
02:47:58  <TheDoleKing> Whats added in the new update 1.0.5
02:48:06  <Samu> but i can't send money
02:48:42  <SmatZ> TheDoleKing: minor versions are mostly bugfixes
02:49:15  <TheDoleKing> Ahhh a friend just got me playing like a week ago
02:49:45  <Samu> i bought 75% shares of the richest company which is not mine
02:49:51  <Samu> 25% for each
02:50:04  <Samu> this shares thing is messed up
02:50:37  <TheDoleKing> how do I make it so there are companys?
02:50:55  <Samu> doelking, are you in the italian server?
02:51:35  <Samu> that server is full, it has 4 AI's doing nothing
02:51:36  <TheDoleKing> No not that I am aware of
02:51:59  <Samu> admin seems to be away
02:52:15  <TheDoleKing> Whats a good server
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02:56:15  <Samu> this is problematic
02:56:26  <Samu> I could take all company slots on a server
02:56:50  <TheDoleKing> Well you did and its the smallest map I have ever seen
02:57:44  <Samu> now no one can make a company
02:57:57  <TheDoleKing> Yeah I know
02:58:02  <TheDoleKing> No fun
02:58:11  <Samu> I can only take password out
02:58:21  <Samu> which one do you want?
02:59:21  <TheDoleKing> Naaa
02:59:34  <TheDoleKing> Every thing on the maps taken any way
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03:57:12  <supermop>  hello
03:57:25  <avdg> hi :o
03:57:37  * avdg needs to get some sleep
03:57:45  <Samu> hi
03:57:56  <supermop> how is everyone?
03:58:06  <Samu> I found a way to give money
03:58:37  <Samu> im giving money to my own companies
03:58:46  <avdg> :)
03:58:49  <Samu> to pay their loan
03:59:18  <avdg> oh, I thought the same companies
03:59:24  <avdg> *company
04:00:41  <svip> avdg: How about that sleep?
04:01:07  <avdg> well, its 5 am here and I didn't sleep for 48 houres
04:01:44  <svip> Imagine lying down.  Quiet.  And every possible image filling your mind.
04:02:18  <svip> Then when you wake up, the world becomes more appealling.
04:02:23  <svip> And OpenTTD easier to play.
04:02:44  <Samu> this is odd
04:03:06  <Samu> I'm giving money to a company that's going to buy shares to the company that gave it money
04:03:15  <svip> Capitalism.
04:03:34  <svip> Or how the finacial crisis started.
04:03:42  <svip> Samu: Free market simulator.
04:04:26  <svip> avdg: By the way, speaking of sleep, I really should get some too.
04:04:27  <Samu> lol it's becoming cheaper to buy 25% shares
04:05:02  <Samu> this is kinda bad :p
04:06:40  <avdg> shares must be more controllable by the player imo
04:07:13  <avdg> but I bet no1 is caring about the sharing system
04:07:24  <svip> avdg: Start caring.
04:07:58  <avdg> and what next, 1 more implementation to care for? :p
04:08:13  <avdg> I'm taking already too much jobs :p
04:08:31  <avdg> nah, I'll see
04:08:41  <avdg> no discussion, no need ;-)
04:08:43  <svip> Maybe I should care.
04:09:02  <svip> But I am too tired to care at the moment.
04:09:06  <svip> Maybe tomorrow!
04:09:11  <avdg> gn :p
04:09:18  <svip> Nah, I have assignments and whatnot ...
04:09:21  <svip> Yes, good night.
04:09:47  <avdg> I can only offer boring questions :(
04:10:06  <Samu> lol, now I sold 25% shares
04:10:21  <Samu> and bought 50% afterwards
04:10:26  <Samu> this is flawed
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04:10:44  <avdg> <- has few questions here
04:11:10  <avdg> ^ lol @ shared system
04:16:11  <Samu> finally, I paid everyone's loan
04:17:07  <Samu> all 3 stole from the big one, which isn't mine
04:17:14  <Samu> can't access it
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04:18:44  * avdg wonders if maintaining multiple companies was allowed there
04:19:20  <Samu> have a good play
04:19:27  <Samu> is the welcome message
04:20:07  <Samu> selling everyone's shares and going to bed
04:22:02  <Samu> oh lord
04:22:10  <Samu> there is seriously a big flaw somewhere
04:24:29  <Samu> money that wouldn't be possible for me to win
04:24:55  <Samu> and now all 3 companies together are worth more than the big one
04:25:14  <Samu> some kind of chain share selling
04:25:54  <avdg> you mean sharing from eachother in a loop?
04:26:41  <Samu> yeah, I think
04:27:32  <Samu> the money multiplicated somewhere
04:27:48  <avdg> donno, I didn't read that part of the source
04:28:15  <Samu> i dont know either
04:28:38  <avdg>
04:28:44  <avdg> should be this if I'm right
04:29:17  <avdg> at least for costs actions
04:29:26  <Samu> big company is worth 4,3 million, and my 3 companies are worth 1,7m 2,9m and 2,4m when they were worth of about 100k each
04:30:09  <avdg> its not the only problem, now I remember
04:30:42  <avdg> an ai abuses the company value by building busstations I thought
04:32:46  <avdg> beh, I think I'm getting tired now
04:32:56  * avdg tries to nap
04:32:59  <avdg> gn
04:33:01  <avdg> :p
04:33:42  <Samu> gonna sleep
04:33:45  <Samu> bye all
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04:38:33  <supermop> bye
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05:42:37  <Terkhen> good morning
05:43:16  <supermop> hello there
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06:25:11  <Anjie^34> hacker!
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08:25:59  <xiong> The population of Whitemarsh is just a tad over 4500. Yet more than 6000 pax wait at its stations. Explain?
08:26:43  <xiong> BTW, the town has only one link to another town, which is very small and is not sending many pax on the return leg.
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09:04:58  <Zuu> xiong: Someone didn't tought them that if you have > 1 trip per month, you can't be on several trips at the same time :-p
09:05:51  <Zuu> Althrough, if you coun't return trips as well you should remove the return trips from the other town.
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09:06:30  <Zuu> count*
09:07:10  <planetmaker> good morning
09:07:25  <Zuu> Good morning planetmaker
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09:58:22  <Alberth> looking at the toyland openttdcoop game #195, can someone explain why the trains have only two wagons?
09:58:59  <Zuu> and one or two engines?
09:59:14  <planetmaker> train length was decided to be two tiles
10:00:07  <planetmaker> and double-headed engines as far as I see. So two wagons only
10:01:04  <planetmaker> and definitely no other reason than "the winning plan required train length two" :-)
10:01:13  <Alberth>
10:01:28  <planetmaker> yes :-)
10:01:33  <planetmaker> exactly two tiles length
10:01:50  <Alberth> is that a normal length?
10:01:58  <planetmaker> two tiles?
10:01:59  <Terkhen> it seems too small to me
10:02:00  <planetmaker> sometimes
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10:02:21  <Alberth> Terkhen: it makes that you need a lot of trains :)
10:02:24  <Zuu> 3-5 is probably more normal at #openttdcoop.
10:02:26  <Alberth> hello Wolf01
10:02:30  <Wolf01> hello :)
10:02:37  <Zuu> But generally you won't see very long trains there.
10:02:40  <planetmaker> it's a very short one, yes. but sometimes one does it different, just because ;-)
10:02:56  <Alberth> that's a good reason :)
10:02:59  <planetmaker> Playing with 5-tile trains every game is boring :-)
10:03:24  <planetmaker> Short has also the advantage that you can build very sharp curves
10:03:43  <planetmaker> And 'many trains' can be an advantage, too :-P
10:03:56  <Zuu> That the game ends quicker?
10:04:06  <Alberth> I must try this too one day
10:05:08  <planetmaker> Zuu: also that. And cargo gets hauled quicker, thus better support for small stations etc
10:05:18  <planetmaker> But mostly it's a matter of 'just because' :-)
10:05:59  <planetmaker> In general I think these very short trains make sense as feeders from a small primary station to a nearby, much bigger pickup station
10:06:04  <planetmaker> also in 'normal' games
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10:30:43  <V453000> when you focus on building the network in its stucture, you basically do not care how many trains you need ... you "just fill" the network with trains, no matter how many, how long
10:31:16  <V453000> therefore we can use basically any reasonable TL and call it a success, because we do not care if we connect 100 or 10 mines, we care about a full network
10:31:27  <perk11> but on some stage you will find that your network is very slow
10:31:34  <V453000> and building the hubs and stuff is WAY better with TL3-ish
10:31:39  <V453000> why would it be slow?
10:32:09  <perk11> because you didn't care about trains length and number
10:32:23  <Ammler> 1.0.5 doesn't use lzma?
10:32:36  <Alberth> perk11: they DO care about train length :)
10:32:53  <V453000> well, I just said that it does not matter which TL we pick
10:33:06  <perk11> that changes things
10:33:25  <perk11> since you pick TL
10:33:47  <V453000> it only changes building of stuff, curve lengths, waiting space requirements, and such
10:34:00  <Alberth> Ammler: readme.txt:  - liblzma: (de)compressing of savegames (1.1.0 and later)
10:34:02  <V453000> but we do not care how much do we transport in most games
10:34:13  <V453000> therefore, long trains have basically no advantage
10:34:44  <Alberth> your network constructs just get longer and take more room
10:35:05  <V453000> yes
10:35:07  <V453000> thats all
10:35:35  <V453000> but the point about low TLs having not enough capacity is completely irrelevant, that is important to not
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10:35:37  <V453000> note
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10:38:01  <V453000> just to the psg 195 you asked about ... TL2 puts building possibilities to a super great level - for example Sbend of 1 tile is very comfortable, besides the CL2
10:38:18  <Alberth> CL2 ?
10:38:30  <V453000> these are aspects that affect how we build it :) look at the roundabout there was ... without the curve length it would be impossible
10:38:33  <V453000> curve length
10:38:44  <Alberth> ah :)
10:39:05  <Alberth> yeah I can see that a short train length makes building much easier and more fun
10:39:23  <V453000> you also use more space with lower TLs
10:39:30  <V453000> so it looks more like MAD
10:39:31  <V453000> :D
10:39:38  <Alberth> :D
10:39:39  <V453000> usually ..
10:40:09  <Alberth> I normally use 4 or 5 tiles length trains, never considered using shorter trains could be more fun
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10:40:52  <V453000> when I played alone, I also used to play with 5
10:41:17  <V453000> but when I started building more intensive stuff, 3 tiles are universally best imo
10:41:26  <V453000> ofc I have a game with TL1 :D :P
10:42:37  <Alberth> that's very short :)
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10:42:54  <Alberth> 3 tiles seems like a nice length to try
10:42:54  <V453000> quite :)
10:42:59  <V453000> definitely
10:43:45  <Alberth> how do you scale stations? I now have a platform for each train at a line, but that obviously does not scale well
10:43:50  <V453000> this is how my first game with TL3 ended .....
10:44:05  <V453000> that depends really
10:44:10  <Ammler> an issue with TL1 is that you can't have signal gap smaller than 2
10:44:14  <V453000> its nice to make it in a large variety :p
10:44:19  <V453000> Ammler: you can
10:44:26  <V453000> 3 tile tunnels work
10:45:07  <Alberth> that's one crazy network, it looks like total chaos to me :)
10:45:28  <V453000> thats the point :D :P
10:48:00  <Ammler> Alberth: it is just interesting how openttd 1.0.5 can read lzma saves without the lib :-)
10:49:10  <Alberth> sure?   do 'ldd openttd' to see what libraries it links
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10:50:07  <Ammler> well, loading might be too much, it does complain about too new save game format
10:50:38  <Alberth> it should :)
10:50:57  <Ammler> changelog: - Change: Make OpenTTD aware of XZ/LZMA compressed savegames so loading those gives a proper error message (r21047) <-- r21057 is not very helpful, shouldn't that be the trunk rev?
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10:53:32  <Rubidium> Ammler: and then you read the trunk rev and think... hey, xz compressed savegames are supported
10:54:16  <Ammler> I see, you did hide the patch in the backport
10:54:44  <Ammler> the usual hg parent doesn't show additional comment lines
10:54:58  <Rubidium> ah, bad tool
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10:55:32  <Ammler> well, it's not a backport, so bad "backporter" ;-)
10:55:45  <Rubidium> it's not listed as backport
10:56:10  <Ammler> it is part of backport from trunk changeset
10:57:26  <Rubidium> part of the changeset is backport
10:57:43  <Ammler> well, doesn't matter, I might not get it anyway...
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10:59:05  <Rubidium> yes, you won't get xz savegames in 1.0.x
11:04:41  <Ammler> nothing really worth to mention in the distro changelog (except maybe the CVE)
11:05:11  <Rubidium> s/maybe//
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12:11:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21281 /trunk/src/saveload/ (saveload.cpp saveload.h): -Doc: Add doxygen comments to saveload code.
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12:30:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21282 /trunk/src/saveload/ (6 files): -Codechange: Rename CheckSavegameVersionOldStyle() to IsSavegameVersionBefore().
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12:37:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21283 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.h: -Codechange: Allow minor argument IsSavegameVersionBefore() to be optional.
12:40:12  <Hirundo> "minor > 0 && _sl_version == major && _sl_minor_version < minor" <- minor>0 check is bogus?
12:42:30  <SmatZ> well, it's redundant
12:43:43  <Rubidium> might spoil the compiler saying "comparing to 0 is pointless"
12:43:51  <Rubidium> +from
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12:46:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21284 /trunk/src/ (20 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Rename CheckSavegameVersion() to IsSavegameVersionBefore().
12:47:56  <Alberth> it is better to be explicit
12:50:17  <V453000> is there any option in config file to allow editing newGRF settings while the game is loaded? :O I just noticed that it was disabled in the later nightlies :O
12:50:38  <V453000> is that because of stupid people changing stuff, breaking their games, not knowing what they are doing, complaining to devs? :(
12:50:54  <frosch123> yes, and there is such a setting
12:51:09  <V453000> could I know it please? :)
12:51:29  <Rubidium> obviously something like scenario developer
12:51:34  <frosch123> i don't know what name it got in the end :p
12:52:03  <Alberth> frosch123: keep it that way :)
12:52:57  <V453000> Rubidium: awesome, thanks :)
12:53:33  <planetmaker> hehe... thank me, V453000 ;-)
12:53:34  <V453000> it wasnt that obvious to me :)
12:53:43  * V453000 thanks pm
12:53:48  <frosch123> or blame :p
12:53:54  <V453000> :D
12:53:56  <planetmaker> stupid people must not mess with that :-P
12:54:24  <V453000> I think the word stupid is way too subtle here :p
12:54:31  <planetmaker> :-P
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13:02:33  <planetmaker> hm, which industry set has lumber? FIRS?
13:02:50  <Terkhen> yes
13:02:50  <b_jonas_> planetmaker: the original one, in the sub-tropical climate
13:03:01  <planetmaker> he :-) Thanks
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13:05:49  <planetmaker> then I guess the flatbed wagon should carry lumber
13:08:44  <Terkhen> hmm... the flatbed truck carries it
13:10:15  <frosch123> dv is spamming the release topic :p
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13:23:00  <fonsinchen> planes don't respect "full load any", but instead do a "full load all" if they can load pax and mail.
13:23:03  <fonsinchen> Is that by design?
13:23:47  <SmatZ> it was sure discussed at least once
13:23:54  <frosch123> "full load any" is not triggered by mail
13:24:02  <frosch123> that is intentional
13:24:16  <planetmaker> hm, why actually?
13:24:17  <frosch123> "full load all" waits for both, so they are not the same
13:24:22  <planetmaker> hm.. train engines?
13:24:33  <frosch123> planetmaker: because the primary cargo has usually a far higher capacity
13:24:58  <planetmaker> parasitic mail cargo ;-)
13:25:05  <frosch123> planes shall start when the passengers are loaded, and not wait for 5 bags of mail
13:25:16  <frosch123> but planes shall not fly with 5 bags of mail and no passengers :p
13:26:14  <planetmaker> makes sense :-)
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13:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> jutn tach
13:48:41  <frosch123> moin
13:49:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i meant ;)
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13:53:07  <b_jonas_> how many lorries fit in a lorry station? two or three?
13:53:22  <Eddi|zuHause> two standard vehicles
13:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause> or four, if you count both directions of a drive through stop
13:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> NewGRFs may provide shorter or longer vehicles.
13:54:03  <frosch123> or 32, if you have very short vehicles :p
13:55:20  <b_jonas_> thanks
13:55:23  <b_jonas_> lol
13:55:28  *** b_jonas_ is now known as b_jonas
13:56:06  * b_jonas adds new lorry stops to the stations
13:57:00  <Wolf01> I would love to have state-machine road infrastructures for various uses for example a larger bus station with 4-10 bays and realistic junction as road waypoints without having to build up crossings with bridges/tunnels and one way roads
13:58:01  * Eddi|zuHause has a feeling Belugas is getting out of hand...
13:58:13  <planetmaker> make them newgrf-able first, Wolf01 ;-)
13:58:22  <Wolf01> that's the problem
13:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> "realism" might not be a reason to introduce a feature, but likewise it's not a reason to decline features either...
13:59:33  <b_jonas> hmm... I can't make the smoke of this power station disappear even if I make industries transparent, turn off full detail and full animation
13:59:39  <Wolf01> with realistic I mean like the ones of sim city 3
13:59:54  <Wolf01> just for eje candy and to take less space
13:59:57  <Wolf01> *ey
14:00:00  <Wolf01> *eye
14:00:07  <b_jonas> is this supposed to be some environmentalist lession?
14:00:12  <b_jonas> I can't see becasue of the smoke
14:00:13  <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: stable or nightly?
14:00:31  <b_jonas> stable
14:00:43  <b_jonas> sub-arctic with some extra grfs
14:01:08  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... yeah, i see...
14:01:21  <Eddi|zuHause> you should probably report it
14:01:44  <Alberth> default industries have that too
14:02:01  <b_jonas> report where?
14:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> on
14:02:10  <Hirundo> Not creating smoke could lead to a desync,as smoke effects use the vehicle pool
14:02:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: the power station smoke is not a vehicle, afaik
14:02:46  <Eddi|zuHause> it's industry animation
14:02:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and this is about making transparent...
14:03:24  <b_jonas> plus, the smoke shouldn't be there when the power station doesn't get any coal
14:03:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably not going to be fixed...
14:03:57  <Eddi|zuHause> you can do a newgrf, though ;)
14:04:13  <b_jonas> didn't some of ttd or locomotion have that feature for some industries?
14:05:14  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:05:47  <planetmaker> b_jonas: it's just that you don't provide coal ;-)
14:06:00  <planetmaker> They have their secret coal storage, though.
14:08:19  <b_jonas> I see
14:11:26  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: The smoke is a single vehicle, that persists for the life of the industry tile
14:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, my point is, even if it's a vehicle, that isn't obvious to the user, and the interface must be adapted to the users intuition
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14:30:24  <Alberth> we'll get flying buses out of the chimney
14:40:50  <b_jonas> Alberth: lol
14:41:51  <b_jonas> you can have _freight trams_? that's cool!
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15:01:27  <b_jonas> I'm trying to experiment with more non-train vehicles than usual now
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15:07:49  <Terkhen> b_jonas: you will probably like HEQS and FISH
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15:09:57  <b_jonas> Terkhen: what are those?
15:10:39  <Alberth> heavy equipment set    , and     fish is ships
15:10:41  <Terkhen> HEQS is a road vehicle set centered on heavy trucks, FISH is a ship set
15:11:24  <b_jonas> I might check them out
15:11:40  <b_jonas> I would like alternate road vehicles and ships
15:11:55  <b_jonas> I won't put them in this game though
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16:32:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r21285 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp_admin.h: -Codechange: prevent ICC warning
16:33:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r21286 /trunk/config.lib: -Codechange: enable more warnings for ICC
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16:34:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r21287 /trunk/readme.txt: -Document: update information about supported compilers
16:38:23  <__ln___> @seen Sacro
16:38:23  <DorpsGek> __ln___: Sacro was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 18 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <Sacro> night Terkhen
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16:42:50  <b_jonas> does planting trees to farm squares help town authority ratings?
16:43:30  <b_jonas> how about stones?
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16:47:32  <andythenorth> b_jonas: does the wiki not say?
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16:50:13  <andythenorth> hmm
16:50:22  <andythenorth> FIRS industries have been discarding cargo for a long time it seems
16:50:41  <andythenorth> a side effect of "input cargo / 8" in the production code
16:51:12  * andythenorth wonders whether to care :|
16:55:42  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it'd be nice to not totally neglect very low amounts. It doesn't matter for higher ones
16:56:10  <planetmaker> Doing a thing like output=max(normal,1) if there's some cargo to process is fine
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16:57:11  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've done that
16:57:23  <andythenorth> there's still some loss, due to different cause
16:57:42  <andythenorth> production ratios are n/8
16:58:06  <andythenorth> I could do "(cargo * production ratio) / 8" ....which might overflow
16:58:35  <andythenorth> or "(cargo / 8) * production ratio" ....which discards some cargo due to not being able to handle float values
16:59:16  <andythenorth> I chose the latter originally :)
17:03:41  <planetmaker> well. Just use the latter. But make sure you return 1, if cargo > 0
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17:04:19  <planetmaker> i.e. just add further processing afther (cargo/8)*prod_ratio
17:04:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21288 /trunk/src/ (landscape.cpp object_base.h object_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Add helper function to find entries in _cleared_object_areas.
17:04:41  <andythenorth> planetmaker: that's done already :)
17:04:47  <andythenorth> there were certain....oversights.
17:04:50  <planetmaker> max(min(1,cargo),cargo/8*prod_ratio)
17:05:09  <andythenorth> hence why some industries were producing with no input :P
17:05:30  <planetmaker> not the worst thing ;-)
17:05:34  <andythenorth> ha
17:05:41  <planetmaker> you could even call it feature ;-)
17:05:46  <andythenorth> kogut liked it
17:05:48  <andythenorth> I didn't
17:05:52  <andythenorth> it's not classic
17:05:57  <planetmaker> so? ;-)
17:06:58  <andythenorth> so in current model, if production ratio is 8, and you deliver 20 tons cargo, you only get 16 tons out
17:07:07  <andythenorth> 'natural wastage' :P
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17:08:41  <andythenorth> 20 / 8 = 2.5...but floats are rounded
17:08:51  <Alberth> room for improvement of the production :p
17:09:18  <andythenorth> room for improvement of the game engine? :P
17:09:42  *** perk11 [~perk11@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:09:48  <andythenorth> I could tackle doing it the other way and try to prevent overflow, but I don't fancy it
17:10:10  * andythenorth is embarrassed about releasing a very broken FIRS 0.5.4
17:10:18  <andythenorth> anyone help me test 0.5.5 candidate?
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17:11:43  <b_jonas> shouldn't that depend on the industry? a sawmill should produce less goods than it gets wood, whereas a food processing plant should produce a larger mass of goods than it gets grain or livestock, because it adds a considerable amount of water
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17:12:35  <Lantizia> Hey can anyone help me work out why openttd keeps freezing?
17:12:51  <Rubidium> b_jonas: but delivering 8 tonnes of grain shouldn't produce the same amount of end product as 15 tonnes of grain
17:13:08  <Lantizia> I'm using 1.0.5 with original graphics/sounds full screen on ubuntu 10.04 trying to do a multiplayer game
17:13:22  <Lantizia> the music continues and you can hear others building but the cursor stops moving and the screen doesn't update
17:13:31  <Lantizia> i have to killall -9 openttd timidity
17:14:11  <Rubidium> so OpenTTD basically runs fine, you just get no screen updates?
17:14:25  <Lantizia> seems to be
17:15:07  <SmatZ> Lantizia: did you readme.txt ?
17:16:08  <Lantizia> SmatZ, I thought I would - but I've no idea where the .deb package extracts that to
17:16:16  <Rubidium> SmatZ: I can't remember such a bug, so it's probably not documented in the readme.txt even though it would be more likely to be in known-bugs.txt
17:16:54  <Rubidium> Lantizia: in /usr/share/doc/<package name>/
17:17:11  <Terkhen> andythenorth: what needs testing?
17:17:22  <Rubidium> although I've seen some effort on Ubuntu's side to not install that anymore by default as "nobody" reads it
17:17:22  <andythenorth> industry production
17:17:38  <Terkhen> with small amounts of cargo?
17:17:47  <andythenorth> Terkhen: the commit log for last couple of commits should indicate the issues fixed :)
17:17:54  <andythenorth> production was totally broken in two ways
17:18:07  <Terkhen> okay, once I finish fixing the partial refit patch I'll start a testing game :)
17:18:11  <andythenorth> (1) secondary industries were producing with no input
17:18:27  <andythenorth> (2) industry production was not related in any way to correct production ratios
17:18:34  <andythenorth> both should be fixed
17:18:35  <Terkhen> oh, I thought I saw (1) yesterday but couldn't find the industry
17:18:48  <andythenorth> any industry with two outputs
17:18:49  <Rubidium> Lantizia: I think the problem you have is with libsdl and not OpenTTD though
17:18:51  <andythenorth> glass works
17:18:54  <andythenorth> machine shop
17:18:57  <andythenorth> paper mill
17:19:26  <Rubidium> Lantizia: it doesn't happen when you're not in full screen, right?
17:19:34  <Lantizia> Rubidium, not tried - will try now
17:20:24  <planetmaker> playing not in full-screen allows to chat concurrently on IRC, too ;-)
17:22:37  <Zuu> Indeed, that's a good reason :-)
17:23:34  <Lantizia> Rubidium, does it when it's not fullscreen too
17:25:39  <Rubidium> so fullscreen isn't an issue
17:26:19  <Rubidium> the game still runs fine as you can hear others building stuff, so OpenTTD didn't hang somewhere
17:26:37  <Lantizia> yeah for example is just froze but I could still hear the end of year sound
17:27:22  <Rubidium> it seems quite easy to reproduce it, so if it's in OpenTTD's drawing code it should've been seen by many people already
17:28:00  <Rubidium> so it "has" to be something lower down the graphics library "chain"
17:30:03  <Rubidium> Lantizia: did you compile OpenTTD yourself?
17:30:44  <Lantizia> Rubidium, no it's openttd-1.0.5-linux-ubuntu-lucid-i386.deb from the site
17:31:39  <Rubidium> hmm, that makes trying other stuff to figure out what causes the problem harder
17:32:10  <Rubidium> as I reckon you wouldn't have a clue what to do when I ask you to compile OpenTTD with allegro instead of sdl
17:32:32  <Lantizia> I wouldn't?
17:32:54  <Rubidium> and I can't (easily) build those binaries for you
17:33:19  <Rubidium> which means I can't really help you much more than blaming sdl or your video card driver
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17:37:25  * andythenorth wonders
17:37:30  <andythenorth> can we have rv-wagons for christmas? :P
17:38:47  <Wolf01> You missed "Dear Santa..."
17:39:22  <Terkhen> it would need Santa Claus himself for coding, because it would be a miracle :P
17:39:40  <andythenorth> what if there were some elves also?
17:40:21  <Terkhen> realistic acceleration for road vehicles took me 3 months, and I had all the specs and code examples I needed already in trains (and it is easier)
17:40:33  <Terkhen> hmm... I could use some helpers to do my work
17:40:51  <Rubidium> Fred!
17:41:02  <Terkhen> why, of course :)
17:41:09  <Terkhen> Fred should code this
17:41:21  <andythenorth> we have someone called fred?
17:41:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21289 /trunk/src/ (terraform_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#4133]: Make terraforming and tunnel-excavation handle DC_AUTO-clearable multitile objects.
17:41:31  <Terkhen> it seems that we do
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17:43:37  <Rubidium> woohoo... bye FS#4133... we'll won't miss you on the bug tracker's not fixed yet list :)
17:45:01  <Terkhen> :)
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17:50:03  <planetmaker> <-- using a function like CPP template: is there a way I can attach the _early_group directly to the variable given by ## name?
17:51:19  <planetmaker> as it's now CPP leaves a space betwen the variable and what follows. But that's not what I want
17:53:06  <Terkhen> hmmm... I remember something about concatenating strings to variables in the preprocessor, let me see
17:53:54  <SpComb> foo ## _suffix
17:54:10  <b_jonas> does "F" in FIRS stand for something?
17:54:34  <Terkhen> yes, it seems that ## is what I remembered
17:54:53  <Terkhen> I did not remember that it left spaces by default
17:55:04  <Terkhen> b_jonas: the F in FIRS stands for FIRS
17:55:04  <b_jonas> oh, it's "full"
17:55:16  <planetmaker> ha, that's also what works :-) Thanks Sp
17:55:22  <planetmaker> *SpComb
17:55:32  <planetmaker> tab completion fail -.-
17:55:37  <b_jonas> Terkhen: yeah, I was wondering if it's a recursive acronym, or a dirty word, or something whose meaning is lost in time like the "f" in "fvwm"
17:56:22  <Terkhen> planetmaker: that's a great idea, I'll copy it for ogfx-rv :)
17:56:30  <planetmaker> sure :-)
17:56:56  <planetmaker> feel free as you like
17:58:46  <planetmaker> I decided to use the different wagons first in order to differenciate the building year
17:58:57  <SpComb> it's C++, a modern language, shouldn't ancient things like CPP macros be ruled out in the code guidelines!
18:00:21  <planetmaker> newgrfs are not written in C++ though ;-)
18:00:27  <planetmaker> I just use its preprocessor :-P
18:01:14  <SpComb> right, didn't look so close
18:01:25  <SpComb> obviously NML needs a little more meta
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18:03:11  <planetmaker> It doesn't need. But it saves me writing many lines now :-)
18:04:20  <andythenorth> b_jonas: it's the FIRS Industry Replacement Set
18:04:26  <andythenorth> recursive
18:06:15  <planetmaker> Like GNU ;-)
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18:17:58  <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: Will the second version be FIRS Industry Replacement Set Two?
18:19:39  *** glevans2 [] has joined #openttd
18:20:07  <Alberth> planetmaker: GNU only says what it is not
18:20:19  <planetmaker> recursively ;-)
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18:24:20  <b_jonas> Prof_Frink++ lol
18:26:39  <andythenorth> Prof_Frink: ha
18:26:46  <andythenorth> I guess it has to be
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18:30:41  <mrruben5> Heya
18:30:53  <Terkhen> hi mrruben5
18:30:53  <mrruben5> guess what: having trouble compiling openTTD again
18:31:46  <Terkhen> mrruben5:
18:33:12  <mrruben5> Yup, but it's not a lib that I am missing atm
18:33:17  <mrruben5>
18:34:00  <mrruben5> I was trying to see how the guys at ottdcoop were doing :)
18:34:32  <Terkhen> did you apply a patch?
18:34:45  <Zuu> mrruben5: They use nightly versions, so you can get a binary from
18:35:26  <mrruben5> zuu: running osx
18:35:44  <Zuu> Ah ok
18:35:46  <mrruben5> terken: Using the autostart script from ammler here:
18:36:12  <mrruben5> Think I should go and chat at #openttdcoop
18:37:05  <andythenorth> mrruben5: it doesn't look like an OS X specific issue
18:37:11  <andythenorth> far as I can see anyway
18:37:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21290 /trunk/src/ (object_cmd.cpp water_cmd.cpp water_map.h waypoint_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Add HasTileWaterGround() to deduplicate some tests.
18:37:49  <Terkhen> it seems like either an outdated patch or source code not updated correctly
18:37:59  <mrruben5> I guess
18:38:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r21291 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp town_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Fix: Treat objects on water like water in more cases.
18:41:07  <andythenorth> mrruben5: can you build a clean version of latest revision (no patches)
18:41:12  <andythenorth> ?
18:41:38  <mrruben5> andythenorth: will try
18:41:44  <andythenorth> I built r21243 on 10.5.8 recently
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21292 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: esperanto - 7 changes by Christopher
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 3 changes by IPG
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 4 changes by JayCity
18:44:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 10 changes by Fixer
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18:46:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21293 /trunk/src/lang/croatian.txt: -Fix: failure of WT3 to properly validate some string...
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18:49:35  <mrruben5> andythenorth: the wiki talks about running ./make however ./configure spits out makefile. running ./makefile run gives me "permission denied"
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18:52:02  <andythenorth> mrruben5: I just do (when needed) ./configure
18:52:05  <andythenorth> and then make
18:52:07  <andythenorth> or make bundle
18:52:10  <andythenorth> or make run
18:52:24  <planetmaker> ./configure && make
18:52:41  <Zuu> && cd bin && ./openttd
18:53:02  <mrruben5> after running ./configure nothing like ./make exists for me
18:53:10  <planetmaker> bin/openttd & ;-)
18:53:22  <planetmaker> mrruben5: note in my command the absence of "./" before make
18:53:24  <Zuu> mrruben5: Its "make" not "./make"
18:53:29  <mrruben5> hmm
18:53:46  <Zuu> make is a command that you need to have installed.
18:53:57  <mrruben5> fail :)
18:54:41  <planetmaker> give that you have at least at one point in time successfully used autostart, you'll have make installed
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18:56:32  <planetmaker> [19:53]	<Zuu>	&& cd bin && ./openttd <-- then rather ./configure && make run
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19:25:42  <b_jonas> wow, bridges are expensive
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19:26:46  <Alberth> are they? perhaps with a bridge newgrf and/or a lot of terraforming
19:27:13  <b_jonas> earliy in the game only
19:27:30  <b_jonas> no, there's no bridge newgrf loaded
19:27:41  <b_jonas> my company is just not rich yet
19:27:57  <b_jonas> I might still buy this one
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19:39:46  <AveiMil> Is there any way to increase the Landbuy cost, or just disable that functionality?
19:39:49  <AveiMil> with settings?
19:41:09  <Samu> hi aveimil
19:41:17  <Samu> I am on 1.0.5
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19:47:07  <Samu> lol i just terraformed a whole world
19:47:11  <Samu> for 10 millions
19:47:28  <Terkhen> AveiMil: IIRC it is now handled as an object, but I'm not sure if you can change their cost via newgrf
19:47:55  <Terkhen> anyways, building diagonal tracks can be used to block land too
19:49:06  <Samu> is there a way to allow local authority to deny terraforming?
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19:50:26  <SmatZ> Samu: no
19:54:57  <b_jonas> they already do that, sort of: if you have very bad rating, you can't demolish the town's buildings or roads, and so you can't terraform in a way that would require that
20:00:23  <Samu> :) join the italian server
20:00:29  <Samu> I terraformed the whole world
20:00:49  <planetmaker> I'd kban you from that server, if I were the admin.
20:01:12  <Samu> 128x128 map
20:01:32  <Samu> now I'm paying loan
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20:08:42  <Wolf01> [21:01:44] <Samu> I terraformed the whole world <- terrorist
20:09:36  <Samu> yesterday I bought and sold shares from each other
20:09:47  <Samu> while giving money at the same time
20:09:51  <Samu> it's flawed
20:12:11  *** Zuu_ [] has joined #openttd
20:13:33  <Samu> zuu, have you found the problem with shares?
20:13:48  <Wolf01> Not at all... it's working its way. You can play OTTD making billions also by purchasing and selling shares like in the Wall, just purchase shares as soon as possibles and sell them when your competitor is at its top
20:14:50  <Samu> I ended up with more money than the company I was stealing from
20:14:51  <Wolf01> you only need a little activity just to don't go bankrupt
20:16:20  <Samu> I was in control of 3 companies, and there was a big company not controlled by me
20:16:36  <Samu> these 3 companies bought 25% of that big one
20:16:43  <Samu> but also bought 25% of each other
20:16:57  <Samu> sometimes at a cost of £1
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20:17:19  <Samu> at the end I sold all shares
20:17:36  *** Zuu [~Zuu@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:17:36  <Samu> and collected all money into only 1 company
20:17:45  <Samu> it was worthy more than the big one
20:18:11  *** Zuu_ is now known as Zuu
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20:20:13  <Wolf01> in the time you did this, the big company must had enough profit to make you gain from the sell of its shares
20:21:11  *** Arie- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:22:04  <Samu> the profit from these 3 companies together wasn't enough to beat the big one
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20:23:43  <Wolf01> but they had shares of the big one
20:23:46  <Samu> no idea how the game calculates company value, but it seems the error must be there
20:24:12  <Samu> buying shares from a company decreases its value to £1
20:24:23  <Samu> then another company can buy shares from that one for £1
20:25:10  <Rubidium> shares are troublesome anyway
20:25:37  * andythenorth wants to be able to short sell
20:25:56  <Rubidium> if you add the X% of the company value of a company you've got shares in to your own company you'll end with an infinite loop if you take shares in eachothers company
20:26:03  <Rubidium> and thus infinite money
20:26:24  <Wolf01> the £1 value should be there when a company does have a loan and not enough money to repay it if I remember correctly
20:26:28  <frosch123> Samu: continue thinking, maybe you find that share trading is not rational in real world either
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20:28:30  <andythenorth> it's rational as long as you think there's a bigger fool
20:28:36  <andythenorth> or some measure of real value
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20:40:54  <andythenorth> Hirundo: did you have any more thoughts on smoke?
20:41:18  <Samu> have you tried setting company value to how it works right now + loan?
20:41:28  <Hirundo> Perhaps, some more smoke for diesel ships
20:41:46  <Samu> or perhaps + max loan
20:41:55  <Samu> even if it's not being used
20:42:32  <frosch123> is there already some screenshot of smoking ships?
20:43:05  <frosch123> hmm, or do i only have to pull heqs and fish? :p
20:43:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: I can make a screenshot if you wish :P
20:43:19  <andythenorth> FISH has smoke for some ships
20:43:59  <andythenorth> it was a nice commit and deserved some newgrf to complement it :)
20:44:19  <frosch123> hmm, fish does not compile
20:44:23  <andythenorth> :o
20:44:33  <andythenorth> frosch123: update nforenum :P
20:44:48  *** Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:45:03  <frosch123> damn, my nforenum does not compile due to local changes :p
20:45:38  <Rubidium> <- oh noes.. we're slow
20:45:38  <andythenorth> :D
20:45:53  * andythenorth has slow internet
20:46:55  <frosch123> 15000-20000 is quite constant
20:47:00  <andythenorth> frosch123: certain...issues
20:47:14  <Zuu> Rubidium: What does that graph show?
20:47:30  <frosch123> i would bet for revision number vs. time
20:47:42  <andythenorth> smaller commits :P
20:47:52  <Rubidium> frosch123: almost :)
20:47:53  <Zuu> Hmm sounds like a good bet
20:48:01  <Rubidium> revision number version nightly number
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20:48:22  <frosch123> ok, there were two days recently without nightly :)
20:48:24  <supermop> hello
20:48:27  <Rubidium> but... mapping against time would be interesting
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20:48:58  <Zuu> With a prediction of when the r30k party will be :-p
20:49:20  <V453000> :D
20:49:46  <Zuu> Hmm, there was a slowdown just before r10k as well as just before r20k.
20:50:11  <andythenorth> maybe it's nearly done
20:50:42  <frosch123> so, we are about 500 commits behind?
20:51:14  <frosch123> andythenorth: ship 5 looks okay, the other ones look kind of wrong
20:51:21  <andythenorth> indeed
20:51:31  <andythenorth> we talked about a new prop for positioning smoke
20:51:37  <frosch123> ships need more smoke effects
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20:51:51  <frosch123> like two symmetrical diesel fumes or so
20:51:57  <Alberth> some ships look like they are on fire :)
20:51:58  <andythenorth> it would be useful to specify xyz offsets
20:52:05  <andythenorth> and also some kind of 'amount'
20:52:07  <IchGuckLive> Hi all: are there no trains in the Scenario editor available ?
20:52:18  <Alberth> yes, there are not
20:52:19  <IchGuckLive> i woudt like to test somthing
20:52:21  <V453000> xD
20:52:26  <Zuu> Why should it be?
20:52:30  <andythenorth> smoke 'amount' could be a simple binary switch: constant | only when accelerating
20:52:41  <Alberth> IchGuckLive: you cannot start a company in the SE
20:52:55  <andythenorth> I have an interesting challenge with ships that have more than one smoke stack
20:52:59  <Zuu> Thus, noone would own the tracks.
20:53:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess that can be hardcoded per vehicle type
20:53:17  <IchGuckLive> Alberth:  trains is all i need (and acity )
20:53:22  <andythenorth> we never sorted out 'types' for ships did we?
20:53:29  <andythenorth> we discussed labels and such
20:53:39  <Alberth> IchGuckLive: save the scenario, quit the editor, play the scenario :)
20:53:40  <frosch123> i doubt there are any differences between different trains, or between different ships
20:53:41  <Zuu> IchGuckLive: save the scenario and start a game.
20:53:56  <IchGuckLive> ah ok
20:53:58  <andythenorth> most conventional ships should show constant smoke
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20:54:07  <andythenorth> but a hovercraft with constant smoke would look dumb
20:54:22  <andythenorth> I think it's because they are powered by different technology
20:54:24  <Samu> why not a water effect
20:54:27  <Samu> waves
20:54:33  <supermop> this sounds interesting, whatever it is that i am eavesdropping on here
20:54:33  <andythenorth> Samu: that's done already
20:54:37  <Samu> :)
20:55:02  <andythenorth> diesel ships use heavy fuel oil, I think hovercraft use kerosene
20:55:22  <frosch123> andythenorth: why should hovercraft not smoke constantly?
20:55:30  <andythenorth> different fuel
20:55:38  <andythenorth> also inland river boats probably use diesel.  Heavy fuel oil is highly polluting :P
20:55:43  <Alberth> supermop: the usual techno-babble on extending a newgrf feature :p
20:55:46  <supermop> i thought hovercrafts used aviation fuel?
20:55:58  <andythenorth> supermop: go look up what aviation fuel is
20:55:59  <supermop> yep; soounds exciting
20:56:03  <planetmaker> diesel ;-)
20:56:03  <supermop> ship types?
20:56:11  <andythenorth> I think you'll find it spelt k-e-r-o-s-e-n-e :P
20:56:16  <supermop> ha
20:56:17  <Samu> someone is talking to me with question marks
20:56:19  <Alberth> smoking ships
20:56:32  <andythenorth> ship types don't seem to be quite needed, but something similar
20:56:35  <Samu> must be russian
20:56:43  <supermop> doesnt kerosene ignite at too low a temperature for aviation use?
20:56:49  <supermop> other thn rockets?
20:56:52  <andythenorth> hmm
20:57:02  * andythenorth feels sidetracked
20:57:07  <supermop> sorry
20:57:11  <Terkhen> :)
20:57:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: can you remember anything of debate about ship types / labels / whatever?
20:57:19  <supermop> i'll fade into the background again
20:57:26  <andythenorth> it was originally about liveries
20:57:31  <andythenorth> then it got confusing
20:57:44  <Terkhen> I think I'm going to drop the partial refit fixes for today and start the test game
20:57:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: it was messed up with railtypes, and then with general grouping :p
20:57:55  <planetmaker> :-)
20:58:24  * planetmaker ponders some more opengfx+trains re-writing
20:58:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: it's more concrete now there's actual smoke :)
20:58:59  <andythenorth> smoke is about as valid as any other reason to have 'types'
20:59:17  <Samu> this is cool, I can use AIs to persuade users to join my game, they think it's an active server
20:59:26  * andythenorth is unreasonably excited about ship smoke :D
20:59:36  <supermop> i think it is exciting
20:59:44  <supermop> but
20:59:58  <supermop> i would dived by engine type rather than fuel
21:00:13  <supermop> internal combustion vs boiler
21:00:20  <Terkhen> hmm... something like steam/diesel/hovercraft?
21:00:25  <andythenorth> yes
21:00:29  <andythenorth> but then there were complications
21:00:44  <andythenorth> sail / hydrofoil / ekranoplan / nuclear
21:00:45  <supermop> steam/internal combustion (oil or diesel)/sail
21:00:47  <andythenorth> oars
21:00:52  <Samu> a maglev hovercraft, using ionized water
21:01:07  <andythenorth> can we uncomplicate it?  Maybe,
21:01:12  <Terkhen> hmm
21:01:25  <Alberth> white smoke, brown smoke,    and no smoke, temporary smoke, constant smoke
21:01:25  <Samu> only needs water to power itself
21:01:27  <frosch123> andythenorth: just come up with a sane solution for railtypes
21:01:34  <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: Chain?
21:01:44  <andythenorth> frosch123: what's the insane part?
21:01:58  * andythenorth thinks Alberth nailed smoke
21:02:10  <frosch123> hmm, wait, are we only discussing visual effect, or also liveries?
21:02:13  <Terkhen> I had to google some of those strange ship types :P
21:02:17  <andythenorth> screw liveries
21:02:21  <andythenorth> I got bored of that :(
21:02:24  <Alberth> no, it escaped out of my hands!  :p
21:02:46  <Rubidium> yay.. openoffice fails to properly render the date graph to a pdf...
21:02:47  <andythenorth> the train nerds made me sad with all their bizarre requests for micro-managing everything to build a 1:1 model of reality
21:03:14  <frosch123> well, ships need multiple spawn points for smoke, or we need articulated ships :p
21:03:21  <Alberth> andythenorth: point them to the nearest train sim :)
21:03:27  <andythenorth> he
21:03:36  <andythenorth> a big new train sim just got released
21:03:41  <andythenorth> so they'll be happy
21:03:45  <andythenorth> frosch123: can we store cargo in the smoke?
21:03:57  <Rubidium> ah well, it looks pretty much like the previous graph
21:04:00  <andythenorth> ship-wagons?
21:04:09  <Alberth> smoke wagons :)
21:04:18  <andythenorth> ship wagons would be pretty
21:04:18  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
21:04:30  <andythenorth> but not needed :)
21:04:43  <andythenorth> ^ the smoke got alberth
21:05:18  <Terkhen> :D
21:05:43  <andythenorth> trains combine smoke + visual effect in one power 'type' ?
21:05:51  <andythenorth> but it can be over-ridden
21:05:53  <planetmaker> it can be done separately
21:05:55  <planetmaker> yes
21:05:58  <andythenorth> oops
21:06:03  <andythenorth> livery + visual effect I means
21:06:43  <andythenorth> an often-fired cb for smoke is overkill?
21:07:49  <Samu> one of the AIs manager is named D.J. Adams
21:07:53  <Samu> cool
21:09:51  <andythenorth> hmm
21:10:34  <andythenorth> extending smoke would involve creating things like VE_TYPE_FOOBAR
21:10:38  <andythenorth> in vehicle.cpp
21:10:40  <andythenorth> ?
21:10:50  <Terkhen> extending it in which way?
21:10:57  <Prof_Frink> Samu: Shame it's not D.N.
21:11:20  <andythenorth> Terkhen: extending types of available smoke
21:11:29  <andythenorth> so e.g. same sprites as diesel smoke, but constant
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21:11:31  <frosch123> they are all effect vehicles
21:11:37  <andythenorth> not using an acceleration formula
21:11:50  <andythenorth> what else do effect vehicles do?
21:11:56  <frosch123> they do nothing
21:12:10  <frosch123> the ship creates them, so you have to change the ship, not the smoke
21:13:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: I am trying understand the lines from 1975-2024 in vehicle.cpp
21:14:46  <frosch123> oh, then i confused some stuff :)
21:15:28  <andythenorth> I was thinking if constant smoke was needed....a new formula would be needed there
21:15:33  <andythenorth> which implies a new case?
21:15:51  <frosch123> i don't think so
21:15:58  <andythenorth> hmm
21:16:06  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:16:09  <frosch123> rather add some properties to influence the existing formulas
21:16:15  * andythenorth always feels stupid when reading src
21:16:24  <supermop> do ships in game really accelerate?
21:16:41  <supermop> they seem to reach their top speed at about the sae rate
21:16:45  <supermop> same
21:16:47  <frosch123> like "smoke at start", "smoke per speed" (signed), and "smoke per acceleration" or so
21:17:17  <andythenorth> how about just two values
21:17:29  <andythenorth> amount at min, amount at max
21:17:35  <Terkhen> supermop: their speed increases by a fixed value each tick IIRC
21:18:04  <supermop> and this is the same for all types of ship?
21:18:11  <andythenorth> supermop: yes
21:18:28  <andythenorth> far as I can see
21:19:21  <Terkhen> shall we have another realistic acceleration for ships discussion? :)
21:19:35  <andythenorth> no please
21:19:45  <Terkhen> :D
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21:19:49  * andythenorth hopes to get a nice answer to ship smoke, and not ten new problems :P
21:20:08  <andythenorth> perfect == enemy of good :(
21:20:22  <Terkhen> that's impossible, in my experience every small, harmless suggestion unearths a big pile of problems
21:20:37  <planetmaker> :-P
21:20:37  <supermop> i dont want to cause any trouble
21:20:41  <supermop> just curious
21:20:45  <andythenorth> you're not ;)
21:20:48  <planetmaker> that's what she said
21:20:53  <supermop> ha
21:21:27  <Terkhen> supermop: don't worry, we are just joking :)
21:21:42  <Terkhen> IIRC aircrafts have an "acceleration" property
21:22:07  <andythenorth> hmm
21:22:16  <andythenorth> for ships with multiple funnels...
21:22:37  <andythenorth> could the effect vehicle be created at a location which is drawn from a list on a round-robin basis?
21:22:43  <andythenorth> e.g. pos 1, pos 2, pos 3
21:23:19  <andythenorth> might make a nice puff-puff effect
21:23:45  <frosch123> i guess synchronised would look better
21:24:03  *** APTX_ [] has joined #openttd
21:24:34  <andythenorth> so in that case, loop to create n effect vehicles, at positions from a list?
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21:27:10  <andythenorth> ha ha
21:27:19  <andythenorth> three lots of smoke looks awesome :D
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21:28:51  <andythenorth> grr
21:29:02  <andythenorth> the offsets are calculated relative to map, not vehicle
21:29:16  * andythenorth feels deja vu for flash games
21:30:07  <andythenorth> so what, I get the vehicle angle and do trigonometry?
21:35:03  <andythenorth>
21:35:59  <supermop> that is alot of smoke
21:36:08  <frosch123> hmm, actually, if the smoke is generated synchronously... the only thing we need is to allow the ship to define its own smoke sprites
21:36:21  <frosch123> then you can put as many fumes at whatever positions into it
21:36:44  <andythenorth> so the newgrf provides the smoke?
21:36:57  <frosch123> maybe
21:37:04  <andythenorth> hmm
21:37:08  <frosch123> not sure, whether that would actually work
21:37:28  <andythenorth> I like the 'define number of effect vehicle to provide' route :)
21:37:36  <andythenorth> drawing smoke scares me :O
21:37:54  <andythenorth> how do I get the vehicle angle?
21:38:03  <frosch123> v->direction
21:38:06  <andythenorth> or is trigonometry the wrong approach?
21:38:12  <frosch123> or this->direction
21:38:30  <frosch123> andythenorth: sin and cos if not needed for 45 degree steps :p
21:39:12  * andythenorth tries
21:39:34  <andythenorth> this->direction returns what?
21:39:45  <andythenorth> degrees?  radians?
21:39:47  <frosch123> it's an enum
21:39:59  <frosch123> DIR_xxx
21:40:19  <frosch123> take a look at _vehicle_smoke_pos
21:40:56  <frosch123> 		int x = _vehicle_smoke_pos[v->direction] * effect_offset;
21:40:58  <frosch123> 		int y = _vehicle_smoke_pos[(v->direction + 2) % 8] * effect_offset;
21:40:59  <andythenorth> ok
21:42:13  * andythenorth tries
21:42:17  <__ln___> Has Revell changed their colour numbering since the 80's?
21:43:40  * andythenorth fails
21:45:26  <frosch123> 		int x = _vehicle_smoke_pos[v->direction] * effect_offset_along   + _vehicle_smoke_pos[(v->direction + 2) % 8] * effect_offset_lateral;
21:45:27  <frosch123> 		int y = _vehicle_smoke_pos[v->direction] * effect_offset_lateral + _vehicle_smoke_pos[(v->direction + 2) % 8] * effect_offset_along;
21:45:31  <frosch123> use something like that
21:45:39  <frosch123> and then fill effect_offset_xxx with somethnig useful
21:48:26  * andythenorth tries
21:52:26  <andythenorth> hmm
21:54:53  <andythenorth> frosch123: I failed :|
21:54:59  <andythenorth> ho hum
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22:17:04  <supermop> hmm, all of the interesting smoke-talk has stopped
22:17:33  <supermop> i guess i should get back to coding my grf
22:19:29  <andythenorth> supermop: I have smoke appearing in random positions near ships
22:19:41  <andythenorth> but without frosch I can't figure out what's wrong :P
22:19:46  <supermop> this sounds awesome
22:19:53  <andythenorth> and it's bedtime
22:19:56  <planetmaker> probably terrorists.
22:20:00  <supermop> just roll with it!
22:20:25  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you know that you can explicitly place the smoke?
22:20:29  <supermop> bedtime in england?
22:20:35  <planetmaker> quite
22:20:42  <supermop> you are more responsible than I
22:20:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I am trying to patch for various smoke enhancements
22:21:00  <andythenorth> such as the n-funnel problem
22:21:06  <planetmaker> openttd or your grf?
22:21:14  <andythenorth> openttd
22:21:18  <planetmaker> uh...
22:22:00  <planetmaker> too tired for that meanwhile for today, sorry :-)
22:22:03  <andythenorth> I am currently figuring out how to rotate the offsets
22:22:06  <andythenorth> but it's bedtime
22:22:16  <planetmaker> sleep well :-)
22:22:27  <Terkhen> good night andythenorth
22:22:30  <andythenorth> night
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22:51:50  <supermop> hey, here is a stupid question:
22:52:20  <supermop> if i want a station tile to have 16 possible sprite layouts, depending on callback
22:52:38  <supermop> so i set up 32 layouts in action 0?
22:53:00  <supermop> 2 directions for each of the 16 possibilities
22:54:18  <Wolf01> 'night all
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23:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> no. the callback is the layout. not the callback result
23:01:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have 2 layouts.
23:02:49  <supermop> i am not sure a follow
23:02:53  <supermop> *i
23:04:57  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't have more than 8 sprite layouts.
23:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> platform, house, roof left, roof right
23:05:22  <Eddi|zuHause> x2
23:05:52  <Eddi|zuHause> so in order to have more than these, you pick one layout, e.g. platform
23:06:14  <Eddi|zuHause> and you define this to be a callback, so depending on other variables, you get different loking platforms
23:06:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but to the game they are all the sprite layout platform
23:06:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. one layout
23:07:33  <Eddi|zuHause> (or maybe i misunderstood the entire thing)
23:07:38  <supermop> well
23:07:44  <supermop> i has a tile
23:07:50  <supermop> *have
23:07:55  <supermop> with 4 sprites
23:08:09  <supermop> and it can have or not have aany of the 4 sprites
23:08:23  <supermop> that is, draw o not draw
23:08:41  <supermop> to acheive that, i need 16 action 2s
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23:09:12  <supermop> to account for the 16 possible combinations of those 4 sprites
23:10:01  <supermop> now i just need to specify whic sprites get drawn by each action 2
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23:10:55  <supermop> so i though i would put 0B 02 in the action 0
23:11:20  <supermop> then 09 20
23:11:44  <supermop> to set up both views for each of the 16 possibilities
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23:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't fully understand the specs in a quick skim... you might be right
23:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but you should better ask the station set authors...
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23:27:58  <supermop> i wonder if a call back is actually what i need to assign sprites to the action 2s
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