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00:02:30 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19759.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:13 <Eddi|zuHause> instruction #1: be patient. 00:06:15 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-102-211.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:21 <fjb> Time... what is time? 00:06:34 *** douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-102-211.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 00:16:28 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 00:20:16 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-35-221.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:45:17 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 01:04:13 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.63.38] has joined #openttd 01:17:20 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.63.38] has quit [] 01:51:04 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:53:58 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 01:59:21 *** JVassie_ [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:04:18 *** JVassie_ [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 02:08:51 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:20:47 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:23:59 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-140-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 02:28:44 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-142-236.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:39:27 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:40:44 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 02:42:33 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFD5EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:52:18 <caracal> waugh ... offer a subsidy, then the city fathers won't let me build there! wotta buncha maroons, screw 'em, i say 03:10:09 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd 03:18:53 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 03:22:54 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:46:16 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd 04:02:46 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:45a5:3aa2:4558:622c] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:10:41 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:22:41 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:35:05 *** ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has joined #openttd 04:53:51 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73CD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:11 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B72D6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:04:32 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 05:12:51 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:20:25 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has joined #openttd 05:20:30 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 05:49:02 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 06:05:50 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has joined #openttd 06:06:45 <andythenorth> Rubidium: today is a good day for drawing rivers 06:06:49 <andythenorth> what's needed? 06:32:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth: basically a version fitting the TTD style. OpenGFX has rivers with shores in its extra grf... see sprites/png/waterfeatures.png sprites/nfo/extra/extra-plus-waterfeatures.pnfo 06:32:10 <planetmaker> moin also :-) 06:32:21 <andythenorth> mornink 06:33:50 <planetmaker> basically it needs all those shore sprites 06:33:57 <planetmaker> river shores that is 06:36:36 *** Xrufuian [~xrufuian-@pool-98-119-100-160.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 06:40:11 *** User024725 [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 06:40:50 *** User024725 [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has left #openttd [] 06:54:08 <Terkhen> good morning 06:55:20 <planetmaker> hi Terkhen 07:04:43 <Rubidium> andythenorth: and the river slopes, i.e. the rocky rapids 07:05:47 <andythenorth> so all shores? looks like sprites 245-1002 in the opengfx sheet 07:05:57 <andythenorth> this is not a 5 min. job :) 07:06:46 <andythenorth> and all rapids looks like sprites 147-240 07:08:00 <andythenorth> how many are actually used? 07:08:13 <andythenorth> there looks to be more sprites than would be sane for building rivers with 07:10:45 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 07:14:25 <andythenorth> some of those sprites are shores 07:16:48 *** Amis [~Amis@5400C3F9.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 07:16:55 *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B105AAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:17:34 *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B105AAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 07:21:32 <andythenorth> Rubidium: is it known which sprites are actually needed? (using the numbers in the opengfx sprite sheet) 07:21:43 <andythenorth> (for temperate - the rest I *can* figure out ) 07:23:05 <andythenorth> or can I patch to use the opengfx versions with ttd base set? That would help me understand what's used where 07:27:52 <blup> cross compiling to win32 from linux amd64, im getting heightmap.o:heightmap.cpp:(.text+0x691): undefined reference to `_png_set_longjmp_fn' 07:27:55 <blup> any idea ? 07:30:41 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host86-99-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 07:32:58 <Wolf01> 'morning 07:33:39 <Rubidium> andythenorth: you can "patch" it. Just replace the 5 base graphics files from opengfx.obg with the graphic files from orig_win.obg (or dos or dos_de) 07:35:29 <Rubidium> I think opengfx has more sprites than needed as it randomises them, but I don't know how much 07:35:51 <Rubidium> the specs says 4 for the slopes and 12*5 for the edges 07:36:42 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:36:45 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:37:29 <Terkhen> blup: missing libpng? 07:38:08 <blup> :) 07:38:14 <blup> I little to easy 07:39:32 <blup> nah .. I had 1.5.2 ... got a freaking bunch of errors .. realized that ... compiled 1.2.44 .. got only errors about that function 07:46:05 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:50:50 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:51:11 *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B105AAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:55:47 <planetmaker> just curious, are you the guy with the window-below-cursor patch, blup ? 07:58:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: there's an easy way to test your sprites: 07:59:12 <planetmaker> there exists the (obsolete) OpenGFX NewWaterFeatures grf 07:59:48 <planetmaker> which is now part of OpenGFX itself. But for testing those sprites in TTD style it might be easy to just work on that... replacing sprites therein 08:00:16 <andythenorth> ok 08:00:27 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/OpenGFX_NewWaterFeatures.grf 08:00:50 <andythenorth> is there a source project for that? nvm if not 08:00:51 <planetmaker> I have a gimp file where I already replaced all the water 08:00:57 <andythenorth> I can decompile + recompile 08:00:59 <planetmaker> there's no other source 08:01:11 <planetmaker> just the gimp file where I started working on this very thing 08:01:21 <planetmaker> even some terrain is already replaced... 08:01:39 <planetmaker> do you want to have that - if so, which file format? 08:03:57 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/waterfeatures_ttd_new.png 08:04:05 <planetmaker> ^ anyhow. Current state of affairs 08:04:20 <planetmaker> could possibly save some (double) work 08:04:22 <andythenorth> so mostly just shores needed :) 08:04:25 <andythenorth> that's much better 08:04:39 <planetmaker> yes. Which also is easy, if you don't want a colour change of the normal terrain near the water 08:04:50 <planetmaker> Which would be very desirable, though 08:05:04 <planetmaker> And which is the artistically most challanging part of this endeavour 08:05:43 <blup> planetmaker, yep 08:06:14 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/OpenGFX_NewWaterFeatures.nfo <-- andythenorth no double work needed there either :-P 08:07:16 <planetmaker> blup: I noticed that some functions miss a @param or @return doxygen and there are two or three cases still where there's "else \n {" instead of "else {\n" 08:07:44 <blup> darn 08:08:04 <planetmaker> +int WindowPopup::WpuGetModifierX() const <-- that and the following 3 in the diff 08:08:17 <planetmaker> miss the @return or @param respectively 08:08:56 <planetmaker> + } 08:08:57 <planetmaker> + else this->type = WPUT_ORIGIN; 08:08:59 <planetmaker> ^^ I'd write it as } else {\n ... \n } 08:09:08 <planetmaker> and + else if (this->type == WPUT_CENTERED) 08:10:11 <blup> adjusting it 08:10:35 <planetmaker> and really... don't worry about patches for 1.1.x. ;-) 08:10:56 <planetmaker> a modified release is not the release and it won't be compatible anyway... at least not straight forward 08:11:37 <planetmaker> people who like patches sh/could just as well use trunk 08:13:06 <planetmaker> though with these gui-only mods it might work without much difficulty indeed 08:16:27 <blup> playing with them .. that's why I provide them .. but yeah .. I don't think anybody will use the 1.1 patches 08:17:33 <planetmaker> people will use them ;-) 08:18:20 <planetmaker> I was just "worried" that you do unnecessary extra work. If you play yourself with it... :-) that's something else 08:19:18 <andythenorth> planetmaker: colour change of normal terrain? 08:19:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth: if you look at how rivers work in OpenGFX, it's not just water layed on the normal terrain tiles, but the rivers have a shore where the colours of the ground are slightly different. 08:20:10 <planetmaker> Similar to the sea shores where there are also sandy pixels 08:20:18 <andythenorth> yes that makes sense 08:20:23 <planetmaker> thus the pixels adjacent to the water for rivers are "muddy" 08:20:44 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 08:21:29 <planetmaker> just copy-pasting the terrain tiles there... that's as easy that even I can do that :-P 08:22:29 <planetmaker> but I hadn't found a good way to make the river shore muddy... 08:22:47 <planetmaker> at least not in a time-efficient way which means to not redraw everything ;-) 08:23:36 <andythenorth> hmm 08:23:53 <planetmaker> you may have some routines which auto-add some shading... dunno 08:23:57 <andythenorth> the grf is OpenGFX - New Water Features v0.1 08:23:57 <andythenorth> ? 08:24:11 <planetmaker> something like that, yes 08:24:23 <planetmaker> it's from a time when there was no OpenGFX yet 08:24:31 <andythenorth> the current shores look 90% correct with ttd graphics 08:24:53 <planetmaker> he :-D 08:25:10 <planetmaker> I might have changed in the png I linked some terrain graphics already, probably for temperate 08:25:14 <planetmaker> dunno exactly anymore 08:25:23 <blup> actually .. I play with sloppily coded versions .. I put extra work so they comply with your standards. but creating a patch for trunk, turning it to 1.1 doesn't require much work ... for the features I'm implementing 08:25:47 <planetmaker> :-) 08:25:48 <andythenorth> to get a perfect fit with ttd graphics, there is work needed 08:25:52 <andythenorth> but it's not too bad already 08:26:20 <andythenorth> as quality problems go, we've had bigger issues I'm sure 08:26:34 <andythenorth> the coast tiles are screwed though :) 08:26:40 <andythenorth> river+coast 08:26:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes... they're the old opengfx coasts 08:27:08 <planetmaker> even opengfx will need an adjustment...hm... probably still needs :-O 08:27:12 <andythenorth> I know how to draw ttd-style coasts 08:27:26 <andythenorth> I'm going out shortly for a few hours, but might be able to work on this later today 08:27:29 <planetmaker> I'd just copy&paste the TTD coasts there with the proper mask 08:27:33 <planetmaker> and then add river coasts 08:27:38 <andythenorth> if the grf is fixed, what happens next? 08:28:37 <planetmaker> that's be a step to be motivation to work on river generation as far as I understood ;-) 08:28:52 <andythenorth> if that's the only blocker...current grf is pretty good :P 08:28:53 <planetmaker> i.e. without sprites there's no point 08:29:10 <andythenorth> I'll see what I can do later ;) 08:29:16 <planetmaker> it could then be canibalized to include them in an action5 block in openttd.grf 08:30:09 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 08:31:54 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:36:10 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:39:46 <blup> I wasn't thinking the @param and @return where required after the obviousness of the functions' name :P 08:43:17 <Alberth> if it is simple, then adding them is also not much work 08:46:07 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1CBA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:57:41 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has joined #openttd 09:02:49 <blup> well .. it's posted .. I hope it is fully compliant. Good night/day guys 09:03:02 *** blup [~theotek@modemcable056.181-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 09:14:44 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:15:31 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has joined #openttd 09:24:13 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffdbd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:25:26 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:28:53 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-008-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 09:39:43 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 09:55:08 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.63.38] has joined #openttd 10:01:08 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:20:58 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:21:19 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:29:47 <planetmaker> hm... so basically rivers and canals at height 0 in conjunction with sea water result in funny coasts: http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/water_coast_oddities.png 10:29:53 <planetmaker> or can do so 10:38:12 <__ln__> there's a local gravitational anomaly in that world 10:41:23 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:48:54 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d823584.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:51:27 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 10:57:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22626 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp settings_internal.h settings_type.h): -Fix [FS#4622]: Also initialise _old_vds with newgame settings; TTD savegames do not contain these settings. 11:08:50 *** Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw3-ffa0c300-106.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:14:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:14:19 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D05.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:15:44 <andythenorth> Alberth: would it help to reduce scope of a script framework? 11:15:54 <andythenorth> to maybe industries, houses, towns? 11:16:15 <andythenorth> getting a 100% generic framework for everything is probably torture 11:18:22 <Alberth> i don't know, I cannot really imagine contents of a script 11:19:26 <andythenorth> I can imagine certain things, like handling cbs from game loop (build industry etc) 11:19:44 <andythenorth> I can't imagine how to write something that provides ongoing gameplay 11:19:50 <andythenorth> e.g. open specific industry at town xyz 11:19:53 <Alberth> but if you remove X from newgrf, you either drop support, move it to game code, or to the script 11:19:55 <andythenorth> allow town pdq to grow 11:20:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6DC83.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:20:29 <andythenorth> I can imagine a scripted scenario 11:20:40 <Alberth> I can too :) 11:21:11 <Alberth> but you cannot even make a customizable one atm :p 11:22:49 *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B105AAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:26:02 *** toams [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 11:27:52 *** toams [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 11:32:12 <andythenorth> a scripted scenario is one thing - you can refer to named towns + other things 11:32:29 <andythenorth> but a script that tries to control game style without reference to specifics is hard to envisage 11:34:17 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:34:36 <Alberth> why, you now also have code that handles production speed and closedown without referring to specifics, or not? 11:34:59 <andythenorth> true 11:35:06 <andythenorth> hmm 11:35:08 <andythenorth> actually 11:35:22 <andythenorth> by reference to things like town types it is possible to be more generic 11:35:36 <andythenorth> if a script can make use of private storage 11:35:46 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 11:36:01 <andythenorth> it could declare that n towns are industrial, p towns are suburban, q towns are agricultural etc 11:36:53 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-84-214.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 11:37:58 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 11:43:47 *** JVassie_ [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:45:30 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest771 11:45:30 *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has joined #openttd 11:45:30 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth 11:48:12 *** Guest771 [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:48:57 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:45a5:3aa2:4558:622c] has joined #openttd 11:49:00 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 11:51:23 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I think you have fixed temperate coasts in the water features png 11:51:39 <planetmaker> yes, so do I 11:51:51 <planetmaker> but without proper river shore 11:51:53 <planetmaker> afair 11:52:07 <planetmaker> just copy&pasted temperate tiles onto it 11:52:18 *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.68.133] has joined #openttd 11:54:36 <andythenorth> any idea why there is blue snow and white snow in that png? 11:54:53 <andythenorth> maybe my mistake 11:55:09 <andythenorth> why not revert the change I made? 11:55:19 <andythenorth> oops wrong channel :P 11:55:26 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:57:49 <andythenorth> hmm 11:57:57 * andythenorth has to remember how to use grfcodec and such 11:57:59 <andythenorth> that's old 11:58:33 <Alberth> grfcodec -h 11:58:42 <andythenorth> arp 11:59:56 <andythenorth> how do I build sea in scenario editor? 12:01:09 <andythenorth> nvm 12:03:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you fixed the coast graphics in temperate, but they're not in the grf :P 12:07:27 <planetmaker> of course not 12:07:33 <andythenorth> :) 12:07:41 <planetmaker> the grf is - as I wrote - an antique newgrf 12:07:55 <planetmaker> the png I linked is a png only existing on my hard disk waiting for further work 12:08:02 <andythenorth> I'm thinking of setting up a repo + build environment for it 12:08:06 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:08:07 <andythenorth> I know it sounds overkill 12:08:19 <planetmaker> quite ;-) 12:08:31 <andythenorth> but there's 6 hours of typing 'grfcodec foo' and then 'cp foo' 12:08:42 <planetmaker> well... locally... maybe :-) 12:08:42 <andythenorth> plus I don't like working without vcs 12:08:51 <planetmaker> that's what I'd do, too 12:08:57 <andythenorth> plus the layout of that png makes my head hurt 12:09:04 <andythenorth> another case for splitting a big png :P 12:09:11 <andythenorth> I really don't want to look at it 12:09:11 <planetmaker> well... same as with industry_misc.png for me :-P 12:09:36 <andythenorth> each climate should have a separate png 12:09:49 <andythenorth> trying to figure out which exact slope is which meh 12:09:53 <andythenorth> they all look the same :) 12:13:45 <caracal> setting up git locally, and then using it, is about as easy as a vc system gets ... i do it all the time for the most trivial things, and have been glad of it several times already 12:15:01 <Ammler> just replace the example grf 12:15:41 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 12:24:19 *** pugi [~pugi@p4FCC37B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:37:34 <Alberth> git just has some insane defaults :p 12:39:31 *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B105AAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:48:08 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 12:52:21 *** murr5y [~murray@229.84-48-69.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:59:15 <caracal> insane? i've never noticed any 12:59:19 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.63.38] has quit [] 12:59:42 <caracal> it's seemed very sane and reasonable to me 13:11:59 <Alberth> need of the -a with commit? 13:12:21 *** sllide [~jari@ip565eb113.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:45 <caracal> eh, i usually just name the files, or else add them explicitly ... i never use -a 13:13:35 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:15:11 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd 13:16:43 <Alberth> you never add a file, edit it, commit it, and are surprised you don't get the current contents in the repo? 13:17:20 <michi_cc> I never use -a either :) Simply because I always stage what I want to commit and review the staged changes before committing. 13:17:39 <caracal> Alberth: never once, no 13:17:54 <michi_cc> Something which is very comfortable using git citool. 13:18:27 <caracal> not even sure what you mean or how you'd do that ... i add a file, edit it, then "git commit -m 'whatever' somefile" and always get what i expect 13:19:35 <Alberth> after that, make a clone, checkout that clone, and look at the contents of the file :p 13:19:52 <caracal> i have ... it's always what i think it should be 13:20:47 <michi_cc> git commit <filename> ignores staged changes, so you don't even need to add it unless it is newly created. 13:22:35 <michi_cc> But if you ever want to construct a commit series out of a complex change, explicitly using the staging area together with git add -i (interactively add diff chunks) respectively git citool is total win. 13:24:29 <caracal> sure, although my projects (and changes to them) are seldom so complex ... especially in the simple case we were discussing initially 13:25:00 <caracal> which was "i want to track this file's changes, but vc systems are too heavy" ... git is about as lightweight as they come 13:25:42 <Alberth> just a 4M package :p 13:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i never really got comfortable with git 13:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause> hg is much more svn-like 13:26:57 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, did some more reshuffling: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/zi3-5.png 13:28:06 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: I never got comfortable with hg especially as it is much more svn-like ;) 13:28:38 <caracal> Alberth: i meant usage overhead 13:29:10 <caracal> but meh, you either like git or you don't, and both are fine with me ... was just reporting my own experiences, which have been uniformly positive 13:29:27 <__ln__> is there a good short book about git from user's perspective? 13:29:40 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 13:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> every time i asked that question i got an answer like "you first have to understand the internal structure of a git repo" 13:30:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no. i do not. 13:30:22 <michi_cc> I like that layout more than the others so far, not too cluttered but still intricate enough. Do you already have tracks? Otherwise especially the red tracks could really benefit from using flex tracks instead of fixed curves. 13:30:56 <Alberth> caracal: I have considered a vcs too heavy. I have been using CVS, RCS, SVN, and HG for my files :) 13:31:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have tracks yet 13:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i do have old ancient tracks, but i don't intend to use any of them 13:32:18 <caracal> i've used rcs, cvs, svn, and tried hg but didn't like it ... ditto for bzr, another popular option ... used clearcase and dsee at work, both are fine for what they do 13:32:41 *** opa [JoFQhScs@rikki.fi] has joined #openttd 13:32:44 <opa> hi 13:32:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is more organic and interesting 13:32:58 <planetmaker> hello oma^W opa 13:33:03 <opa> ;) 13:33:06 <caracal> that's been my progression over the years: rcs -> cvs -> svn -> git 13:33:48 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: looks like a nice track layout :-) 13:33:58 <planetmaker> I might consider a straight line in the very upper part 13:34:22 <opa> i'm learning to build bigger networks and i have one question about mainlines; is the space between tracks left only for possible hubs? 13:34:44 <planetmaker> depens probably who built the network ;-) 13:40:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what do you mean with a straigh line? 13:40:26 <andythenorth> a bit where you can go really fast :P 13:40:46 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: a track connection which goes --- and connects the two loops in the left and right 13:41:39 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. not sure if i can fit a switch in there within the space constraints 13:42:09 <planetmaker> btw... what's the colour codes? 13:42:12 <planetmaker> track sections? 13:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, track sections, but they are currently purely decorative. 13:43:34 <planetmaker> and the track density in the greed / white area: are they on different levels? 13:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 13:44:45 <planetmaker> I see :-) 13:45:46 <planetmaker> and what's the total size? The dimensions written there are confusing for me 13:46:01 <planetmaker> 4m x 3.5m? 13:46:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 4,40mx3,40m 13:46:24 <planetmaker> where will you be in that room? :-P 13:46:45 <planetmaker> it's about the size of my sleeping room... 13:46:46 <Eddi|zuHause> on the lower right ;) 13:46:50 <planetmaker> :-D 13:46:56 <Eddi|zuHause> where the door is 13:46:58 <planetmaker> just the space to open the door and run trains ;-) 13:46:59 <opa> are talking about miniature railway? 13:47:10 <planetmaker> yeah 13:47:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22627 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: Rename PrepareTextRefStackUsage() to StartTextRefStackUsage() to make it more obvious that you must call StopTextRefStackUsage() at some point. Also extent the documentation. 13:51:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22628 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h): -Codechange: Allow passing the textref stack values to use to StartTextRefStackUsage() instead of always using the temporary NewGRF registers. 13:58:43 <__ln__> if only they made miniature railways that can be mounted vertically on the wall... 14:03:30 *** Markavian [~Markavian@220-245-91-25.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 14:04:06 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 14:12:00 <opa> is this a good example for a 4 way sideline hub? 14:12:16 <opa> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/File:Lewisworth_Transport,_12._Dez_2055.png 14:17:40 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-094-218-142-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:19:36 <frosch123> at least it seems to do split-before-merge 14:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only person failing to see the "good" part? 14:25:48 <Alberth> I fail to distinguish between good and bad, but that does not count, does it? 14:28:59 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you fail to see the whole fun on such networks at all :-P 14:30:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22629 /trunk/src/ (6 files): 14:30:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4599]: Remove all usages of the ErrorRefStack. It was continuously 14:30:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: overwritten by e.g. industry prospection without closing the old error window; 14:30:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: also StopTextRefStackUsage() was not called for errors returned by commands 14:30:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: (which caused FS#4599). Now return in the CommandCost result whether the textref 14:30:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: stack needs to be used, and store a copy of the stack values in the error window 14:30:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: just like for the normal string parameters. 14:30:08 <Ammler> the hub is very old so there are a lot "better" examples in the meantime 14:31:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22630 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h): -Cleanup: Remove SwitchToNormalRefStack() and SwitchToErrorRefStack(). 14:35:31 <opa> Ammler: can you give a link to a better one? 14:35:43 <Ammler> www.openttdcoop.org 14:35:54 *** xx [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 14:36:01 *** xx [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 14:36:45 <opa> that one is from there 14:37:29 <Ammler> there are more examples there... 14:38:35 <opa> i could only find one other 14:38:39 <opa> most are 3 way hubs 14:40:22 *** JVassie_ [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 14:40:50 <Alberth> 2 x 3 way hubs == 1 x 4 way hub 14:42:16 <Ammler> #openttdcoop does build a better one almost on every game :-) 14:42:55 <opa> so the answer to my first question is: its not a good junction 14:44:50 <planetmaker> it's not bad. But it's not the best 14:45:16 <opa> ok, thanks 14:46:14 *** JVassie [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:47:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22631 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix: Additional text in fund industry window is NewGRF supplied and thus should have a default colour. 14:50:08 <planetmaker> opa: the "best" junctions usually are found in the public server game archive 14:50:20 <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive 14:50:42 <Ammler> "the best" is not built yet 14:51:06 <planetmaker> depends on defintion of "best" ;-) 14:54:40 <opa> i'll give them a look 15:03:52 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 15:07:33 *** sype [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 15:11:35 *** sype [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [] 15:13:52 <Alberth> building junction that make use of the local landscape is much more fun :p 15:14:40 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:14:56 <andythenorth> arp 15:15:26 <planetmaker> [17:16] Alberth building junction that make use of the local landscape is much more fun :p <-- of course... But that is no strong constraint 15:15:38 <planetmaker> unless you combine that with a hard size constraint ;-) 15:16:10 <Alberth> set terraform limit to 0 :p 15:16:46 <planetmaker> :-) 15:18:57 *** bodis__ [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:18:57 *** bodis [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:19:11 <andythenorth> rivers 15:19:42 <andythenorth> is there a map array reason why they can't be diagonal (i.e. | â ) 15:19:44 <andythenorth> ? 15:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> no 15:21:10 <andythenorth> they would look considerably better in the landscape 15:21:56 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest779 15:21:56 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has joined #openttd 15:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> if the "trackbits" are available to the newgrf, and then you can draw diagonal rivers based on them 15:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> just you won't be able to build rail on the other half of the tile 15:22:49 <andythenorth> that's bad for building an accurate model of the rhine :P 15:22:52 <andythenorth> but otherwise fine 15:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> meh... flextracks are evil ;) 15:23:29 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you still can't put rivers on half-slope tiles 15:24:00 <andythenorth> you shouldn't be able to :P 15:24:03 <andythenorth> it's a bad idea 15:24:08 <andythenorth> canals maybe, not rivers 15:24:26 <andythenorth> oh 15:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the key part which blocked my river patch... 15:24:37 <andythenorth> orthogonal doesn't mean what I think it means :o 15:24:46 <andythenorth> I only knew about the perpendicular aspect of it 15:25:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it has lots of meanings in maths ;) 15:25:15 <andythenorth> so it seems 15:25:30 <andythenorth> the . product of vectors being 0 is just one of them :P 15:25:34 <andythenorth> anyway 15:25:35 <andythenorth> rivers 15:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> statistical correlation is also a form of (non-)orthogonality 15:25:53 <andythenorth> rivers would be better if they could go | â 15:26:19 <andythenorth> if I draw them, will someone patch for it? 15:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> rivers would be better if the could go down/along halftile slopes 15:26:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why? rivers don't do that irl 15:26:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they do 15:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> they go in whatever direction is "down" 15:27:06 <andythenorth> ok 15:27:11 <planetmaker> a _|_ b: <a|b> = 0 ;-) 15:27:32 <andythenorth> but given enough time they'd terraform the half tile away, unless the rock is exceptionally tough 15:27:37 <andythenorth> and time is what rivers have 15:27:59 <planetmaker> I disagree. Halftile just means the direction of the slope is different 15:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: bÀh, that's some evil physics notation that i never really understood ;) 15:28:42 <andythenorth> I don't see how to meaningfully draw a river on a half tile slope 15:28:48 <planetmaker> hehe :-) 15:29:03 <andythenorth> although with | and â rivers I can see how... 15:29:11 *** Guest779 [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:29:36 <andythenorth> to display the river on the half-tile slope demands use of 4 tiles 15:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> have i mentioned that flextracks are evil yet? 15:30:08 <andythenorth> you should see what lego fans make of it 15:30:20 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: <a|b> is basically another way of writing a*b when a and b are entities which allow to form a scalar product 15:30:21 <andythenorth> "omg the sky is falling - lego is so OVER" 15:30:33 <andythenorth> (lego fans are mostly idiots) 15:30:38 <planetmaker> usually that notation is used in quantum mechanics 15:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but what's an <a| then? 15:31:16 <planetmaker> a vector 15:31:26 <planetmaker> and |a> the transposed form 15:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's because they are ADULTS and LEGO FANS simultaneously. they logically must be crazy ;) 15:31:45 <planetmaker> and <a|H|b> implies that H is a matrix operator 15:32:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: unlike fans of small trains :P 15:32:07 <planetmaker> :-P 15:32:18 *** ar3kaw [~ident@eci102.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: âI-n-v-i-s-i-o-nâ 3.2 (July '10)] 15:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i never said that :p 15:37:30 <andythenorth> so should I draw | â rivers? 15:39:41 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:48:39 *** Chruker [~no@86.52.165.109] has joined #openttd 15:48:48 *** fjb [~frank@p5DDFDAC7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:49:46 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-094-218-142-143.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:55:38 *** Chruker [~no@86.52.165.109] has quit [] 15:57:42 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.63.38] has joined #openttd 15:57:52 *** Chruker [~no@5634a56d.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #openttd 16:06:10 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 16:30:33 <Hirundo> hmm... are NewGRF station triggers / random bit reseeding actually implemented in OpenTTD? 16:34:33 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:26 *** ar3k [~ident@ebw250.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 16:39:29 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw 16:39:39 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@D97A83D8.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 16:56:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, please 16:56:45 <andythenorth> will they be patched for? 16:56:46 <andythenorth> :P 16:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> we'll see about that ;) 17:01:48 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:02:24 <__ln__> meanwhile in copenhagen: http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/horizontal/1135267524275.jpeg 17:02:26 *** Bluelight [~chatzilla@30.80-202-82.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd 17:03:02 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 17:04:45 *** Bluelight [~chatzilla@30.80-202-82.nextgentel.com] has quit [] 17:06:19 <Alberth> :O 17:08:41 <frosch123> Hirundo: does not look like 17:08:52 <frosch123> StationSpec::cargo_triggers is nowhere used 17:11:22 <frosch123> and that property does not look as if it would be translated 17:14:17 *** DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@D97A83D8.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:03 <frosch123> hmm, maybe it is 17:17:12 <frosch123> yeah, it is translated 17:17:30 *** blup [~theotek@modemcable056.181-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 17:17:37 <blup> good day 17:24:22 <opa> does changing the acceleration model need you to restart the game to take effect? 17:26:03 <Terkhen> hi blup 17:26:05 <Terkhen> opa: no 17:26:17 <Terkhen> but existing games have their own settings 17:26:33 <Terkhen> if you change the setting in the main menu and then load a game, it will use its own settings 17:32:57 <supermop> hey andy 17:33:19 <Hirundo> frosch123: Is there a reason why it isn't implemented? Simply because no-one has bothered yet, or something else? 17:33:38 <frosch123> likely the former 17:33:43 <frosch123> peter just did not do it :p 17:35:27 <frosch123> though i remember the question on which tiles the triggers actually apply 17:35:46 <frosch123> only the tiles the train stands on 17:35:51 <frosch123> the whole platform the train is in 17:35:55 <frosch123> or the whole station 17:36:34 <frosch123> hmm, though that is actually written in the specs :p 17:43:58 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:44:44 *** Pulec|XNB [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 17:52:46 *** Pulec|XNB [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:54:58 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 17:56:36 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest788 17:56:36 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:56:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:56:38 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 18:01:49 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has joined #openttd 18:04:11 *** Guest788 [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:07:58 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 18:08:16 *** Devroush [~dennis@83.101.63.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:38:26 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:40:02 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 18:40:08 <andythenorth> ho 18:40:30 <andythenorth> the 'clever' canals-on-sea cheat for making docks 18:40:39 <andythenorth> can also be used for rivers, and is less effective there :P 18:41:05 <andythenorth> and caused me to chase a false bug with graphics 18:42:26 <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/rivers_sea.png 18:43:33 * andythenorth builds a nice sea level causeway :P 18:46:23 <andythenorth> quaint: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/causeway.png 18:46:43 <andythenorth> any Dutch readers care to comment on realism of that? 18:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> other than the river shores are really boring? 18:48:48 <andythenorth> what do you want? dancing bears? :P 18:48:56 <__ln__> sheep 18:48:58 <andythenorth> blinkenlights? 18:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> anything that is not a straight green line 18:49:25 <andythenorth> that I can manage 18:49:32 <andythenorth> how about not building rivers at sea level? 18:49:43 <andythenorth> can that be achieved whilst leaving the canal 'cheat' in place? 18:49:59 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the problem? 18:50:10 <andythenorth> might be a non-issue 18:50:15 <andythenorth> maybe even an easter egg 18:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it very certainly is a non-issue 18:50:34 <andythenorth> because...? 18:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> because i don't see any issue. 18:52:36 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest794 18:52:36 *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has joined #openttd 18:52:36 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth 18:52:52 <andythenorth> it causes (valid) graphical glitch at coasts for starters 18:53:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in the top-most island here: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/rivers_sea.png 18:53:08 <andythenorth> look at the river mouth 18:53:25 <andythenorth> it's drawing extra shores over the sea, 18:53:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a problem but not unique to rivers 18:54:24 <andythenorth> you're making the assumption a river generator won't build rivers over sea? 18:54:41 <Eddi|zuHause> no 18:54:52 *** Amis [~Amis@5400C3F9.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:55 <andythenorth> hmm 18:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm saying place a canal at the same place and see what happens 18:55:09 <andythenorth> I know 18:55:49 <andythenorth> but there's no generator for canals 18:56:01 <andythenorth> player does this themselves - less of an issue 18:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no generator for rivers either. 18:56:28 <andythenorth> he :) 18:56:41 <andythenorth> I can't be bothered to argue case - I'll draw some more shores ;) 18:58:36 *** Guest794 [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust387.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the graphical issue you talk about could probably be solved by providing more river/shore-hybrid tiles 19:03:39 <andythenorth> really? 19:03:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and the shore-ness of the waterfall must be properly reset 19:04:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you mean tile code or tile graphics? 19:04:12 <andythenorth> the graphics would just be an empty tile 19:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean tile graphics 19:04:16 <andythenorth> the issue is the code 19:04:35 <andythenorth> the only sane thing to show there is a plain sea tile 19:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it should not be empty graphics. but it should be graphics that better blend in with the shores 19:05:06 <andythenorth> it seems like *way* TMWFTLB 19:05:16 <andythenorth> it's supporting an edge case that arguably shouldn't exist 19:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a perfectly valid tile configuration 19:06:01 <andythenorth> well it shouldn't be :P 19:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> there is absolutely no reason to forbid river placement at sea level 19:06:31 <andythenorth> can you actually describe what you would draw on that tile? 19:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the green (river-shore) bits on the side facing the river, and yellow (sea-shore) bits on the sides facing the sea 19:08:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the waterfall should not have the yellow shore bits displayed. that is probably an invalid edge case in the code 19:08:28 <planetmaker> I rather think it could be changed / fixed in the code... e.g. by distinguishing the type of shore river vs. sea 19:08:31 <andythenorth> so two very small bits of land sticking into sea? 19:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 19:09:25 <andythenorth> and all the other shore tiles also need duplicating 19:09:37 <andythenorth> and a variant creating for 'this is a river at sea level so draw shore' 19:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> not "at sea level", only "next to a sea tile" 19:10:39 <H-land> Ugh. I can't understand these trains at /all/. 19:11:04 <andythenorth> is there such a thing as a sea tile? 19:11:35 <H-land> I don't know what I'm doing wrong with my signaling, but they seem to find it fun to lose me money by, instead of accessing an unloading bay (as is quite readily available), they turn around and loop back and make another round. While they're fully loaded. 19:11:44 <H-land> They've just got a thing for doing U-turns. 19:12:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that means drawing approximately 50 additional river tiles per climate 19:12:11 <andythenorth> is it really worth it? 19:12:30 <andythenorth> (assume a scale of 'is anything in the game worth it?') :P 19:12:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a system of composing shores would be helpful 19:13:45 <andythenorth> yes 19:13:51 <andythenorth> but... 19:14:09 <andythenorth> is it likely? 19:14:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have 4 "corner-bits" and 4 "edge-bits" per climate 19:14:19 <opa> is there a specific reason why shared orders are not copied when cloning a train? 19:14:25 <andythenorth> a system of being able to detect reliably what's actually on a tile would be a starting point 19:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and then each for river-adjacent or sea-adjacent 19:14:36 <opa> i mean the orders are copied but not the 'link' 19:14:42 <andythenorth> you can tell whether it's river or sea? 19:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> opa: use ctrl key when cloing 19:14:50 <andythenorth> newgrf can't :P 19:14:59 <andythenorth> newgrf also can't find coasts 19:15:04 <opa> Eddi|zuHause: ah, thanks! 19:15:15 <andythenorth> although maybe with enough conditional action 2 for slopes it might be able to 99% of the time :P 19:15:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's just a matter of exposing the variables to newgrf 19:16:07 <Eddi|zuHause> ~ 3 LOC per variable ;) 19:17:16 <andythenorth> hmm 19:17:25 <andythenorth> newgrf river generator :P 19:17:47 <Eddi|zuHause> this is about display, not generation ;) 19:17:49 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:18:30 <andythenorth> I know - got distracted ;) 19:18:52 <andythenorth> newgrf generator would be painful 19:19:01 *** Jamie [~chatzilla@host86-157-233-10.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 19:19:37 *** Jamie is now known as Guest800 19:20:00 *** Guest800 is now known as JamieT 19:22:31 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:23:45 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 19:29:28 <andythenorth> why don't my ships use rivers? 19:29:32 <andythenorth> ah 19:29:34 <andythenorth> rapids :P 19:29:35 <andythenorth> oops 19:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ships tend to not want to go uphill by themselves :p 19:30:58 <andythenorth> heading upstream on a river they go uphill all the way :P 19:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a weird colour outside... it's both red from the sunset and grey from the rain 19:31:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I think you finished the temperate rivers 19:31:21 <andythenorth> they look ok in game to me 19:31:39 <planetmaker> yes, might be :-) 19:31:59 <andythenorth> so should I make rougher shores for rivers? 19:33:39 <planetmaker> dunno. 19:34:12 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd.grf should include river shores as well 19:34:23 <planetmaker> that's the point of the exercise ;-) 19:34:24 <andythenorth> that is my purpose :) 19:35:06 <Eddi|zuHause> just make them not-straight 19:36:01 <andythenorth> should they be sandy? 19:36:13 <andythenorth> might look better 19:37:41 <Eddi|zuHause> possible 19:38:41 <planetmaker> possibly, yes 19:42:31 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:42:56 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 19:46:09 *** LordPixaII [~Pixa@79-68-111-145.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 19:51:23 *** Pixa [~Pixa@85.210.68.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:52:57 <JamieT> Could somebody please point me in the direction of information on how to install a patch for an absolute noob? :) 19:54:08 <Hirundo> Have you ever compiled openttd yourself? 19:54:16 <JamieT> Nope 19:55:39 <planetmaker> then do that first 19:55:45 <planetmaker> without any patch 19:55:55 <planetmaker> information is found in the wiki 19:56:05 <JamieT> I don't know what you mean by compiled? 19:56:32 <planetmaker> ... 19:57:15 <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttd.org/Category:Compiling_OpenTTD 19:57:38 <planetmaker> "build from source code" 19:59:08 <JamieT> This seem like a lot of work to install a patch. 19:59:13 <Rubidium> it is 19:59:31 <planetmaker> it's nothing you 'just copy' and be done 19:59:38 <andythenorth> that's what a patch involves :P 20:00:26 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 20:00:55 <JamieT> So, I don't just download a file, unzip it and put it in the right folder, like most addons? 20:01:34 <planetmaker> indeed not 20:01:43 <planetmaker> A patch is not an add-on to a finished game. 20:01:50 <Rubidium> see an OpenTTD binary as a cake and openttd's sources as a recipe plus ingredients. Then a patch would be a change to the recipe and/or ingredients. Baking a cake would be like compiling OpenTTD. The best way to get information about whether the "modified" (i.e. patched) cake recipe can be baked properly is by first attempting to bake the unmodified cake, i.e. make sure the mixer works right and the over functions. After that you experiment with the different 20:02:18 <planetmaker> It's a piece of source code which subsequently requires you to build the whole game from all it's human-written pieces. By means of a compiler 20:02:22 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 20:02:44 <planetmaker> I love that parabole, Rubidium :-) 20:02:54 <opa> Rubidium: nice analogy :) 20:03:02 <Ammler> JamieT: if you don't want to compile yourself, maybe the patch thread has prebuilt binaries 20:03:40 <planetmaker> sad only that I now want cake :-P 20:03:50 <Ammler> I have cake :-P 20:03:51 <planetmaker> but don't have any... 20:03:54 <Rubidium> make cake ;) 20:04:32 <Rubidium> I doubt -jN (N > 1) really helps with baking a cake though 20:05:03 <frosch123> it helps a lot with cookies though 20:05:08 * andythenorth has giant chocolate buttons 20:05:25 <JamieT> Well I'd like to use "Yet Another CargoDestinations" and" Improved Timetable Management." But to do so, I'm going to have to change source code and download various bits of software? 20:05:31 <frosch123> imagine baking a single cookie :p 20:05:35 <Rubidium> frosch123: true, you can link multiple cookies at the same time 20:05:45 <andythenorth> there are binaries for YACD 20:06:05 <Ammler> JamieT: and you might also consider using linux for that (or osx) 20:06:06 <frosch123> night 20:06:10 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffdbd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:12 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-080-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 20:06:51 <JamieT> This is all a bit over my head. I think i'll just stick to the bog standard game. 20:07:08 <Ammler> yacd binaries are available 20:07:15 <andythenorth> someone will know where the click-and-go YACD is 20:07:18 <Rubidium> JamieT: ITiM is so old that there is no single version of OpenTTD's sources where YACD and ITiM would even apply unmodified 20:07:26 <planetmaker> newgrfs can modify the default game already A LOT ;-) 20:09:09 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 20:09:15 <Rubidium> JamieT: and that means that you (basically) need to be a (somewhat) skilled software developer to pull it off 20:14:23 <opa> why there are two-way exit signals in some examples of presignaling? 20:14:30 <opa> two-way signals in front of a station 20:14:33 <opa> ro-ro station 20:14:40 <opa> instead of one-way 20:15:20 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 20:15:52 <andythenorth> JamieT: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/yacd/ 20:17:23 <Alberth> opa: original game treated two-way different from one-way 20:17:43 <JamieT> It doesn't really help me im afraid. I'll just leave it. Are there any 'NewGRF' things that I could use instead of ITiM or YACD? 20:18:34 <andythenorth> JamieT: how doesn't it help you? :o 20:18:39 <andythenorth> you want to play YACD? 20:19:13 <Terkhen> JamieT: ITiM is not a NewGRF; it is a patch 20:19:15 <JamieT> Not now i know the amount of effort i'd have to put in 20:19:23 <Terkhen> patches require compiling the code 20:19:24 <opa> Alberth: so it doesn't matter anymore? 20:19:51 <Alberth> it does with the original game :p openttd is smarter 20:19:58 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has quit [] 20:20:24 <andythenorth> JamieT: why doesn't the link to binaries help you? 20:20:49 <andythenorth> what do you want? We email you the actual file? Or is that too much work? 20:21:38 <opa> Alberth: ok, thanks 20:21:49 <JamieT> Because i don't have the first clue what to do with it. Emailing me the actually file would be nice :) 20:22:17 <Alberth> that IS the actual file :) 20:23:34 <andythenorth> link to zip (assumes you have a sensible OS) http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/yacd/LATEST/openttd-yacd-yacd_2.3-macosx-universal.zip 20:23:40 <andythenorth> there are zips for windows and linux too 20:24:03 <andythenorth> ;) 20:25:40 <JamieT> Thank you. 20:26:08 <andythenorth> warning: yacd is addictive 20:26:10 <andythenorth> and very hard 20:27:44 <opa> it looks very nice 20:29:27 <caracal> it's, what, a fork of openttd with cargo destinations? 20:29:36 <caracal> like simutrans has? 20:29:51 <Alberth> it's not a fork, just a patched version 20:30:06 <caracal> okay, so basically ottd at heart 20:30:27 <Alberth> the patch is under development, and these are test bundles 20:30:33 <caracal> nice 20:30:44 <Alberth> in the openttd development forum, you can find the thread with all infor 20:30:49 <Alberth> *information 20:31:07 <opa> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=54253 20:31:09 <opa> here 20:31:17 <Alberth> thanks :) 20:31:25 <opa> i just googled it 20:32:47 <opa> is implicit order just for information what route is used? 20:33:07 <Alberth> yes 20:33:52 <Alberth> although in the cargo d*st cases, the information is also used for cargo routing 20:34:31 <Alberth> and it gives you information which trains visit the station more precisely than just the explicit orders 20:34:44 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:35:49 *** JamieT [~chatzilla@host86-157-233-10.range86-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.19/2010031422]] 20:36:22 <opa> its very nice too see that this game/project is still constantly being improved 20:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, i probably need glasses or something... i seriously just read "cargo d'est" 20:42:05 <__ln__> maybe you're becoming a frenchman 20:42:34 <opa> after looking all these new and useful features which has been included since i last played opentt, the original transport tycoon looks a very crappy game :) 20:47:31 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd from last year was a very crappy game compared to now 20:47:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the nature of development 20:48:15 <opa> what are the most essential new features developed during the last couple of years? 20:48:38 <planetmaker> good night 20:50:44 *** Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd 20:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> opa: it says in the changelog 20:54:07 <planetmaker> nah... readmes and changelogs are written only for the trash bin :-P 20:57:29 *** jonty-comp [~jonty@borealis.jontysewell.net] has quit [Quit: lolbrokeirssi] 20:57:54 *** jonty-comp [~jonty@borealis.jontysewell.net] has joined #openttd 20:57:57 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d823584.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 21:01:32 *** H-land [~H-land@user-0c937e3.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:37 <Terkhen> good night 21:06:55 <andythenorth> bye Terkhen 21:13:49 <opa> is there any way i could make the loading train to leave when another trains arrives to the station? 21:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause> only by timetabling all arrivals 21:22:47 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-84-214.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:29:38 <Wolf01> 'night 21:29:42 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host86-99-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:44:00 <andythenorth> good night 21:44:02 *** andythenorth [~Andy@87.113.139.15] has left #openttd [] 21:49:36 <Zuu> Hmm, in theory it is a nice idea to collect all AI settings in the same place. But the # of oopcodes setting is a really advanced one that would scare most players if placed in a visible location. 21:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> then the only solution is to put all other AI settings into the advanced settings window 21:55:02 *** bodis__ [~bodis@cpc3-ando3-0-0-cust781.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:54 *** goblin [~goblin@dslb-088-067-080-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:01:43 <Zuu> Either that or the AI settings window need to gain an advanced area. 22:03:29 <Zuu> I think the advanced settings system need some work in order to handle the AI settings in a usable way, so it will need work either to get AI settings there or to get an advanced section in the AI Settings window. 22:08:07 *** amkoroew [~matze@p5B105AAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:45 *** JVassie_ [~James@host-92-27-149-231.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i think that work would be a good investment, if it results in _all_ settings being controlled from one single window 22:12:59 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-008-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 22:18:45 *** welshdragon [~dragon@anubis.millsie.net] has joined #openttd 22:20:25 *** LordPixaII [~Pixa@79-68-111-145.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:26:37 <caracal> hmm ... the max noise limit of a town seems to go up as the population increases, but the *allowed* limit hasn't moved ... anything i can do to influence that? 22:26:46 <caracal> i need to build a larger airport! 22:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> allowed limit = max limit minus all currently existing airports 22:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> plus some distance bonus 22:33:10 <caracal> hmm ... the max limit shows as 14, but i have only one "small" airport (noise 3) in town 22:33:22 <caracal> so something else is up 22:33:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the town may additionaly totally dislike you 22:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. if you destroyed lots of trees while preparing the area for your airport 22:34:02 <caracal> heh ... my rep shows as Outstanding 22:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of airport do you want to build 22:34:32 <caracal> this airport has been there for almost 20 years, with no other construction 22:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and what is the error you get? 22:35:16 <caracal> i want to build a City, as that's the only other option (until 1980) ... the error is "city authority won't allow this because of noise concerns" or some such 22:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you try to build on the territory of another nearby town? 22:36:15 <caracal> oooh, maybe that's the problem, there's a small town south of where i want to build 22:36:22 <caracal> one sec, lemme check ... 22:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the north corner of the airport counts 22:37:32 <caracal> nope, it names the larger town, the one whose noise limits are 1/14 ... other towns have much higher than 1, and i've built City airports in those 22:38:16 <caracal> this site is like 8 or 9 squares from the city center ... i've built that close elsewhere 22:38:36 <caracal> they're just being dicks about it <g> 22:39:05 <caracal> i assume that once the limit rises to 2/14 i can demolish the Small and build my City, as the Small will give me back 3 noise "points" 22:39:19 <caracal> but it's been stuck at 1/14 for years now, sigh 22:39:42 <caracal> well, no, it's been stuck at 1/N, where N keeps rising as the pop does 22:39:58 <caracal> up to 14 by now 22:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the 1 is the actual noise created by the small airport (3 originally, minus 2 bonus for distance) 22:41:20 <caracal> ahhh, so it's not a limit, it's a measurement 22:41:39 <caracal> so why can't i build a City on the same site? 22:41:46 <caracal> if the limit is 14 22:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea 22:41:59 <caracal> well okay then <g> 22:43:55 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-160.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:44:19 <caracal> the actual message is "Perth local authority refuses permission for airport due to noise concerns" 22:45:08 <caracal> huh ... after i demolish the Small, the city window keeps saying noise limit is 1/14 22:46:22 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:04 *** Chruker [~no@5634a56d.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [] 23:00:02 <caracal> hmm ... if my station's catchment area overlaps a competitor's station, it doesn't seem to pull passengers from his station ... pity 23:00:29 <caracal> or maybe i'm just doing it wrong 23:00:53 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:17 <Chris_Booth> caracal: no it doesn't 23:09:26 <Chris_Booth> you are not doing it wrong 23:09:45 <Chris_Booth> unless you have the same catchmean area as there station 23:09:49 <caracal> hmm, too bad 23:09:52 <Chris_Booth> then you get a 50% split 23:10:16 <caracal> nah, was trying to drain passengers from his train station with busses 23:10:52 <caracal> and transfer them to my airport <g> 23:11:59 <Chris_Booth> I hope this is in a single player game and not on a server 23:12:06 <caracal> i could probably do it with several strategically-placed bus stations, but meh, he's not that big a threat 23:12:12 <Chris_Booth> since that is not in the sprit of the game 23:12:24 <caracal> oh? winning isn't? ;) 23:12:41 <Chris_Booth> no having the best network with best flow is 23:12:51 *** bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.85.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:12:56 <Chris_Booth> or you and I play for different reasons 23:13:23 <caracal> ah ... well given the scant reporting that the game gives for air routes, it's sorta hard to optimize 23:13:41 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Quit: The Third Tiberium War - http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-third-tiberium-war] 23:13:42 <caracal> i know, i know, its origins were trains, and it still favors them 23:13:50 <caracal> i used to play RT2 by the hour 23:14:02 <caracal> but in ottd, i like planes <g> 23:15:28 <Chris_Booth> you like planes as they are easy to set up and make you lots of money 23:16:20 <caracal> indeed 23:16:42 <caracal> makes it easy to grab passenger subsidies 23:17:59 <caracal> at least when the city allows you to build an airport, grumble 23:18:17 <caracal> Perth are being real bitches about me upgrading my Small to a City airport 23:18:36 <caracal> every other large city has a large airport, but Perth, noooo 23:20:54 <caracal> built a Small airport there in 1955, and it's now hideously overcrowded ... it's now 1969, their noise limit is up to 16, yet they still won't let me upgrade 23:22:13 <caracal> if they keep dicking me around, i'll just pull out and build somewhere else ... did that a few days ago to Miami in a USA game, for not letting me demolish five squares of road, and they withered on the vine after i left ... serves them right! 23:23:39 <caracal> but it's a pain reassigning destinations to all the planes ... no mass replace that i've found 23:24:00 <glx> shared orders 23:24:01 <caracal> shared routes help, but with planes there's only so much sharing you can do 23:24:31 <caracal> five planes from one city to another are usually not as useful as to five different cities 23:25:14 <caracal> same deal when i upgrade an airport to a larger one and the city won't let me build in the same spot 23:25:31 <caracal> i usually try to buy land around smaller ones in anticipation of that, but in this case it's not helping 23:25:58 <caracal> grumble city fathers and their grumble noise regulations! ;) 23:30:05 <caracal> well, i found a site nearby that they let me build on, and with careful linking, was able to avoid major disruption ... i normally have an airport bus station that i can use as a station connection, so it becomes the "same" station 23:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make sure the new airport gets the same name even though it is not the same location by using the ctrl key while building 23:31:33 <caracal> in my fight with that train guy, i did discover something i hadn't realized before, at least i think i did: he built bus stations all over town, and linked them to his train station ... but he built no busses! and yet, that seemed to expand his train station's catchment area ... is that right? 23:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 23:32:06 <caracal> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's what i do ... if there's no bus station attached, the game does it automatically, otherwise i use ctrl 23:32:49 <caracal> hmm, that station catchment thing is a revelation ... have to try that with my next airport 23:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's way more fun to have actual busses/trams go through the city, though ;) 23:36:25 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:36:26 <caracal> true ... that's my usual method, build a bus route first to fatten up the city, then build an airport and add it as a transfer stop on the bus route 23:37:01 <caracal> plus, happy busses improve your rating with the local authority <g> 23:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never had planes capable of handling all the passengers, though 23:39:26 <caracal> i usually wind up with a fleet of 747's (excuse me, Darwin 300's) and a few Concorde's (er, Yate Haugans) 23:39:51 <caracal> but yeah, once the cities get big enough, the airports can't handle enough planes to carry all the passengers 23:40:28 <caracal> but by then i'm rich enough to build any sort of rail route i need, not that i usually do, not being very good with rail yet 23:41:14 <caracal> this train AI is doing pretty well in stealing my business, but i have him stumped in Tasmania <g> 23:41:40 <caracal> guess he can't afford a bridge that long 23:42:11 *** alluke [~0a0a6567@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 23:43:13 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a maximum bridge length somewhere 23:44:47 <caracal> i just read this week that the chinese have built the world's longest bridge 23:45:12 <caracal> longer than the previous record holder at Lake Ponchartrain 23:45:14 <alluke> surprise 23:45:14 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:59 <caracal> alluke: yeah, big shock ... i figured they'd be happy just *owning* Lake P., like they do everything else in the usa 23:46:51 <alluke> they want to be the next superpower 23:47:09 <caracal> and they're well on their way 23:47:20 <alluke> yeah 23:47:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not kept up with who got the longest. 23:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> (double entendre intended) 23:48:13 <caracal> heh 23:48:33 <caracal> well, despite racial stereotypes, the chinese do now ;) 23:49:08 <alluke> hahhah 23:50:17 <alluke> i guess america has covered in their fat sausages 23:53:45 <alluke> but my city has grown like kid's hair