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00:00:39 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-241-66-86.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:02:02 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@059-057-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:02:54 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 00:13:58 *** Xaroth [~Xaroth@059-057-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd 00:17:30 *** blotek [~blotek@afrm178.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:12 *** blotek [~blotek@afrm178.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 00:27:23 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-061-214.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 00:32:31 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:33:34 <z-MaTRiX> hah 00:33:35 <z-MaTRiX> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX2jmV4g0vc&lc 00:33:42 <z-MaTRiX> gta5 00:35:39 <z-MaTRiX> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=eZ_R3Nzb86o 00:35:49 <z-MaTRiX> physics still not cool 00:39:58 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: follow up question: how can i determine the cargo class? if i use the cargo weight calculation like proposed, i need an exception for the passenger cargo class (if that's not possible then i'll need to do some restructuring in the code generator instead) 00:40:18 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 00:40:28 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Var 47 has that info as well, not sure where NML put it. 00:40:47 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Looks like cargo_classes in NML 00:41:42 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, must have missed that in the list 01:03:17 *** yorick_ [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:03:33 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-40-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 01:09:21 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-3-22.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:14:37 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 01:15:12 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.27.86.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:18:59 *** KritiK [~Maxim@128.68.107.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:25:01 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-29-119.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 01:30:51 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-40-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:55:37 *** blotek_ [~blotek@afrm178.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 01:55:41 *** blotek_ [~blotek@afrm178.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [] 02:07:51 *** blotek [~blotek@afrm178.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Wychodzi] 02:08:19 *** blotek [~blotek@afrm178.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 02:41:21 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 02:50:50 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-29-119.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 03:26:32 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-145-019.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 03:29:40 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-245-087.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:49:25 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:51:04 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 03:58:39 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 04:24:38 *** blotek [~blotek@afrm178.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:25:34 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 04:31:20 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:946:5490:1ad1:3ad7] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:55:44 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B746E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:00 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73DF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:56:41 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 06:13:51 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop_] 06:34:03 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:34:30 <Elukka> "The Israeli cabinet was reported on Wednesday to be debating whether to launch air strikes on Iranian nuclear sites in the coming weeks. The prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and the defence minister, Ehud Barak, are lobbying in favour of action, but other senior ministers are urging caution." 06:34:31 <Elukka> ... 06:48:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:53:28 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 07:02:58 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 07:20:43 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AD67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:31:48 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 07:31:59 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 07:34:38 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 07:41:39 <Terkhen> good morning 07:44:21 <planetmaker> moin 07:44:49 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-31-22.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:56:54 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 07:58:36 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 08:02:29 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:06:10 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-018-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:23:48 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:30 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-061-214.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 08:30:38 <appe> morning 08:30:51 <appe> Elukka: what on earth 08:30:54 <appe> Elukka: that's horrible 08:31:26 <appe> where israel finds the need to fight everything all the freakin' time is beyond me' 08:32:03 <Elukka> and you just know their big brother uncle sam would get in on it 08:32:59 <Elukka> i'm kinda worried the US will want to start another war as obama has been promising that they'll be out of afghanistan very soon and then there was the accusation that iran was assassinating someone on US soil that sounded an awful lot like a possibly made up casus belli 08:33:04 <appe> but wait a second 08:33:12 <appe> why on earth would that be official news? 08:34:00 <Elukka> which part? 08:34:26 <TyrHeimdall> probably the part where they where debating on bombing Iran 08:34:34 <Elukka> dunno 08:34:51 <Elukka> it might be a rather public debate in israel 08:35:02 <planetmaker> what makes a piece of news "official"? 08:36:14 <Elukka> it's funny how a country that sometimes says stupid shit is considered a 'rogue state' and a menace to everyone while a country that regularly invades other countries and gets away with illegal wars that kill hundreds of thousands, are considered the good guys 08:36:23 <appe> Elukka: that they "might" bomb nuclear siols. 08:36:26 <appe> silos* 08:36:30 <planetmaker> appe: no country had since 1953 fight for its survival literally more than Israel. Just think of 1967... 08:36:42 <Elukka> iran doesn't have nuclear silos 08:36:44 <__ln__> Elukka: that's because they are the good guys 08:36:46 <appe> "it's survival"? 08:36:59 <planetmaker> its survival 08:37:14 <Elukka> ln, how so 08:37:17 <appe> does iran plan to invade israel? 08:37:43 <Elukka> not as far as i know 08:37:49 <planetmaker> according to Iran's president, Israel has to be exterminated 08:37:51 <dihedral> greetings 08:37:54 <appe> i dont get it, and that might be the pascifist swede in me, but some people should chill the fuck out and stop bickering at each other. 08:38:05 <planetmaker> and wiped off the map 08:38:08 <Elukka> iran's president is not actually iran's head of state 08:38:09 <planetmaker> hello dihedral 08:38:13 <appe> and that goes for both iran, israel and all the other ass face countries down there. 08:38:16 <appe> :,( 08:38:17 <Elukka> ahmadinejad is only relevant because foreigners listen to him 08:38:41 <dihedral> appe, join #politics 08:38:48 <planetmaker> Elukka: you actually followed events there and talked to (exil-)Iranians? 08:38:51 <appe> no, ill just rage and quit. 08:38:52 <Elukka> nah 08:38:52 <appe> :> 08:38:54 <planetmaker> It's not quite like that 08:38:59 <dihedral> :-P 08:39:05 <Elukka> i mean, i'm not intimately familiar with this 08:39:12 <appe> lots of wars here in sweden 08:39:16 <appe> we plan to invade denmark. 08:39:22 <appe> (in silence, with trains) 08:39:26 <planetmaker> what makes you believe then that Ahmadimeschad does not wield power? 08:39:35 <TyrHeimdall> appe: just becouse of you I'm gonna build a railway with a depot in each end and ram 2 trains into each other 08:39:47 <appe> TyrHeimdall: ! 08:39:47 <planetmaker> or who did smite the reform movement 2 years ago? 08:39:51 <Elukka> i guess he might have some power, but he's not head of state as people think 08:39:51 <TyrHeimdall> ^^ 08:40:15 <Elukka> oh, actually they call the president the head of state 08:40:17 <appe> that reminds me, there is something wrong with the crasching trains in openttd 08:40:20 <Elukka> alright but he's not the main guy :P 08:40:29 <appe> you should build an "area effect" depending on the train size 08:40:41 <Elukka> oh nvm they don't 08:40:55 <Elukka> "Unlike some other countries, for example the United States, in Iran the office of president does not bestow full control over foreign policy, the armed forces, or the nuclear policy of the Iranian state, which are ultimately under the control of the Supreme Leader." 08:40:56 <appe> a fully loaded 64 cart steel train should fuck up elevation and cities when it crasches. 08:41:43 <Elukka> iran doesn't seem like a particularly nice government, but it doesn't seem nearly as dangerous in practice as the US and israel 08:41:47 <TyrHeimdall> I see an addon comming. Nuclear waste transportation and desposal 08:42:00 <TyrHeimdall> imagine the trainwrecks of that 08:42:18 <TyrHeimdall> "your train crashed, the west side of the map is now dead for the next 1000 years" 08:42:45 <appe> i dont really know why people are still fighting down there 08:42:52 <appe> it's religion or ..what? 08:43:25 <Elukka> nah 08:43:29 <planetmaker> religion is always a pretense in this context. Wars are fought for power 08:43:43 <planetmaker> Ressources. Control 08:43:50 <planetmaker> Religion is just a nice excuse there 08:44:07 <TyrHeimdall> I would go so far as to say "ego" 08:44:09 <planetmaker> to make the populace actually fight 08:44:19 *** Celestar [~dax@82.113.99.58] has joined #openttd 08:44:33 *** Elu [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:44:43 <Elu> blah, stupid connection 08:45:26 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:42 <TyrHeimdall> I think the openttd community should rule the world 08:45:45 <Elu> http://www.thehypertexts.com/images/israel-palestine_map.jpg 08:45:46 <Celestar> ããã«ã¡ã¯ 08:45:56 <TyrHeimdall> it kjnows enough about resource management and logistics 08:45:57 <TyrHeimdall> ^^ 08:46:40 *** Elu is now known as Elukka 08:46:53 <Elukka> so... that map probably explains the root of the israeli-palestine conflict 08:47:03 <Elukka> it's more complicated than that, though 08:47:56 <planetmaker> ìë íìžì Celestar 08:48:07 <appe> what i see, both sides are just as hostile to the other 08:48:18 <Celestar> can't read Korean writing :P 08:48:31 <planetmaker> :-) I unfortunately cannot read much of it either 08:48:45 <planetmaker> I should, though :-( 08:48:51 <Celestar> why's that? 08:49:46 <planetmaker> would feel right [TM] ;-) 08:50:11 <Celestar> I can read quite some Hiragana. 08:50:20 <Celestar> not that I understand the words I'm reading :P 08:50:25 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-061-214.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 08:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> "The Israeli cabinet was reported on Wednesday to be debating whether to launch air strikes on Iranian nuclear sites in the coming weeks. The prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and the defence minister, Ehud Barak, are lobbying in favour of action, but other senior ministers are urging caution." <-- it's not like this is a totally new plan. this scenario has been around for years 08:50:51 <planetmaker> And I would not need to think that long how to write ìì when filling out some official forms 08:51:55 <planetmaker> though the Korean script is actually a quite simple syllable one. It's only 24 characters. 08:53:20 *** Elu [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:53:28 <Elu> asdfasdf 08:53:41 <planetmaker> sure. Maybe you should change the pw :-P 08:53:42 <__ln__> and korean could be a useful language when spending holidays in north korea. 08:53:45 <Elu> i think a lot of the issues in the middle east come from foreign meddling 08:54:08 <Elu> the israel-palestine conflict was essentially created by the UN 08:54:13 <planetmaker> __ln__: also in South Korea it helps A LOT 08:54:20 <Elu> afghanistan used to be a nice country... then two superpowers invaded it within a few decades 08:55:05 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:55:15 <planetmaker> Even though English is taught in school, it's hard to get along with English only 08:55:18 *** Elu is now known as Elukka 08:56:06 <Qantourisc> How do you handly all those vechicals ? 08:56:19 <Qantourisc> Or just I just use trains ? :) 08:56:35 <planetmaker> Use helicopters :-P 08:56:51 <Qantourisc> :p 08:57:56 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: if you group your vehicles and use shared orders, it might help a lot 08:58:07 <Qantourisc> Still feeld messy :) 08:59:17 <Celestar> planetmaker: same goes for Japan. 08:59:28 <planetmaker> quite true 08:59:35 <Celestar> planetmaker: it's ok in Tokyo, it's hardly bearable in Osaka, but outside those places .... 09:00:06 <__ln__> planetmaker: indeed, English is quite much useless as near as in Belgium or Poland. 09:00:17 <Qantourisc> in our country 2 languages are teached; yet it's hard to get by with either of them :) 09:00:19 <planetmaker> Well. Kyoto and Kobe worked with English, too. But yes... you gotta have means to "navigate" through the cases where English won't help. But one has hand and feet ;-) 09:00:23 <Qantourisc> schools sucks for languages 09:00:27 <__ln__> Qantourisc: *taught 09:00:48 <Qantourisc> then what is teached ? 09:00:48 <planetmaker> __ln__: I only need to go out of the door to stop wondering how far English will get me ;-) 09:01:25 <__ln__> Qantourisc: it's ungrammatical. 09:01:28 <Elukka> 'teached' isn't a word :P 09:01:29 <Celestar> planetmaker: it's mandatory to know the Kanji for tokyo :P 09:01:44 <Celestar> planetmaker: so that if you get lost, you can get on a train to toyko :P 09:01:46 <Qantourisc> Elukka: a ok :) 09:01:55 <planetmaker> haha :-) @ Celestar 09:02:09 <planetmaker> yes, it helps a lot to know the Kanji of the place you want to go 09:02:46 <Terkhen> you guys talk a lot 09:02:56 <Celestar> funny thing is To-Kyo is different from Kyo-to :P 09:03:03 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:03:33 <planetmaker> Terkhen: with the notable difference between "talk" and "say" ;-) 09:03:39 <Celestar> æ±äº¬ and äº¬éœ 09:04:01 <planetmaker> Celestar: of course :-). But that's not Kanji. 09:04:07 <Qantourisc> Celestar: and why is this ? 09:04:16 <Terkhen> it just surprised me to find so many lines after going for a coffee 09:04:18 <Celestar> well .... 09:04:34 <Celestar> different meanings. 09:04:40 <planetmaker> That's a name and there often the Chinese(?) symbols are used. And ^^^ 09:05:27 <Qantourisc> Celestar: i mean the sound is the same, but the symbols not ? 09:05:38 <Celestar> welcome to Japanese :D 09:05:59 <peter1138> yeah, like "wear" and "where" 09:06:04 <Qantourisc> god ... languages SUCK 09:06:09 <planetmaker> :-) Qantourisc, you're surprised? You think European languages don't have that? 09:06:24 <Qantourisc> Well in dutch, they are weeding them out :) 09:06:29 <Qantourisc> where possible 09:06:41 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:06:49 <peter1138> dutch isn't a language 09:06:52 <peter1138> it's a tongue-twister 09:07:04 <Terkhen> we should go back to grunting and gesturing 09:07:13 <Terkhen> at least irc backlogs would be shorter that way 09:07:31 * MNIM grunts and gestures at peter1138 to throw a couple of /very/ rude expressions at him 09:07:40 <MNIM> hmmmmmmh. 09:07:41 <peter1138> so it would be like Sacro then? 09:07:50 <MNIM> I think I like scolding someone in dutch better 09:08:02 <Celestar> Dutch is when a drunk Englishman attempts to speak German *runs and hides* 09:08:24 <planetmaker> Dutch? Nah. Other languages are far more tongue twisting... Just got an invitation to a dinner with бПÑÑ 09:08:34 <MNIM> mehh 09:08:48 <planetmaker> borscht 09:08:50 <MNIM> well, we do have a couple of combinations which we only share with icelandic 09:09:02 <MNIM> borscht isn't that bad 09:09:08 <MNIM> try pronouncing 'herfst' 09:09:20 <Qantourisc> peter1138: hehe, a tongue twister ? how's that ? :) 09:09:43 <Qantourisc> I know 1 language where you read what you speak ... unfortanatly; it's barely spoken :) 09:10:00 <planetmaker> german? ;-) 09:10:15 <Celestar> BASIC? 09:10:22 <Celestar> 10 PRINT HELLO WOLRD 09:10:23 <Celestar> 20 GOTO 10 09:10:35 <Qantourisc> :p 09:10:35 <peter1138> Syntax error at line 10 09:10:48 <Celestar> rofl peter1138 :P 09:10:55 <Celestar> cba to type the quotation marks :P 09:10:57 <planetmaker> hehe 09:10:59 <Qantourisc> Well ... he IS right ! 09:12:01 <Qantourisc> Planning on translating openttd ... when i find more time :)) 09:12:26 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: just register as translator 09:12:31 <Qantourisc> no 09:12:31 <planetmaker> easy to do via web-interface 09:12:36 <Qantourisc> as the language is so obscure 09:12:45 <Qantourisc> i need to translate 50% before i can check in 09:12:50 <planetmaker> eh? 09:12:57 <planetmaker> not at all 09:13:04 <Qantourisc> let me fetch that mail 09:13:26 <planetmaker> >50% before it becomes selectable as ingame as default 09:13:33 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> borscht <-- technically it should be borschtsch 09:13:36 <planetmaker> and available to "everyone" 09:13:41 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: only in German translation 09:13:55 <planetmaker> (yes, I looked up the English one) 09:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Ñ <-- that's the letter schtsch 09:14:19 <Celestar> hm.... 09:14:20 <planetmaker> I know 09:14:22 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: i contacted translator@openttd.org 09:14:28 <peter1138> and h is the letter aitch 09:14:36 <Celestar> Visual Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code 09:14:37 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: he said i need to get a large chunk done, before it would be added 09:14:54 <Celestar> WTF is a Visual Beginner? 09:15:31 <peter1138> before it would be added for everyone to use. 09:15:32 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: yes, as available for the general public 09:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: the opposite of an abstract beginner? 09:16:06 <Celestar> rofl 09:16:06 <planetmaker> but available for translation in the webinterface (and not yet to the general public with every build) the requirements are MUCh less strict 09:16:11 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: "as avaible for the ..." i understand the setence, but not withing it's concept 09:16:26 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: ow .... that's intresting 09:16:31 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: there are the languages you can usually select OpenTTD to use in the game options 09:16:37 <planetmaker> and there are the "unfinished" ones 09:16:41 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: Abstract Basic? :P 09:16:47 <planetmaker> which are not :-) 09:17:00 <peter1138> # f... i love boobs though 09:17:14 <peter1138> # i just really love them 09:17:33 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: i'll try to remember this ones i get more free time, (as soon as my financial situation improves) 09:17:33 <MNIM> now hey, this is somebody that nobody can disagree with 09:18:13 <Qantourisc> but right now, i MUST relax ... or i'll drop dead before that situation ever does ... 09:18:44 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: improving financial situation usually corresponds with reducing 'free time' ;-) 09:18:47 <appe> i havent relaxed in three years 09:18:57 <appe> i havent had vacation in that time either. 09:19:13 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: currenty, we are bound to 1 customer ... who is paying just enough ... 09:19:24 <appe> Qantourisc: what are you working with? 09:19:26 <Qantourisc> improving the situation, would mean get a backup plan 09:19:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you guys certainly have the wrong jobs 09:19:35 <appe> i love my job 09:19:37 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.25.206.13] has joined #openttd 09:19:38 <Qantourisc> so we can update the price 09:19:45 <Qantourisc> appe: "what" ? 09:19:53 <Qantourisc> appe: i quess that would be a keyboard 09:19:54 <appe> Qantourisc: yes, what is your occupation. 09:20:17 <Qantourisc> To be frank, I can nolonger stand the incompetence there :/ 09:20:44 <planetmaker> 10:19 appe: i love my job <-- as long as that's true, it's the "right job" :-) 09:21:04 <appe> or, let's say i love my jobs. 09:21:06 <Qantourisc> I like IT 09:21:16 <Celestar> I like candy 09:21:16 <Qantourisc> I just don't like the pressure in it :) 09:21:21 <appe> i own and run a call center 09:21:24 <appe> and it's fantastic. 09:21:29 <Qantourisc> and the icompetance :/ 09:21:29 <appe> lots of work, but fantastic 09:21:38 <Celestar> iCompetence? 09:21:41 <appe> :) 09:21:48 <Qantourisc> :) 09:22:01 <Qantourisc> today i got a phonecall ... 09:22:17 <Qantourisc> we rebooted the server ... because we had network issue, now things are still broken 09:22:25 <Qantourisc> (note it was a Linux server) 09:22:35 * Celestar proudly owns no apple products :P 09:22:37 <planetmaker> err... sounds like the windoze solution 09:22:46 <Celestar> yeah, very much so 09:22:48 <Qantourisc> and quess what ... 09:22:52 <Qantourisc> it still doesn't work :) 09:22:55 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:23:05 * planetmaker would not talk here now w/o an apple product :-P 09:23:19 * MNIM owns one apple product, sadly 09:23:23 <Qantourisc> I like apple, and I hate them at the same time. 09:23:25 <planetmaker> nor actually have written a single newgrf or ottd patch without... 09:23:37 <MNIM> I also have to frequently help my dad with his imac. 09:24:13 <Qantourisc> But I usually ask myself what is bad about a product, not what is good. 09:24:18 <planetmaker> they're quite good and quite bad at the same time. In different ways 09:24:29 <Qantourisc> I prefer products that don't suck, rather then products that suck and excel 09:24:36 <planetmaker> :-) 09:24:37 <Qantourisc> The most troublesome: openness 09:24:42 <planetmaker> eh? 09:24:48 <appe> i do like the imac 09:24:57 <Qantourisc> Especially a problem with phones (in general) 09:24:57 <planetmaker> what's wrong about "open"? 09:25:08 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: apple isn't open enough 09:25:13 <Qantourisc> well open i don't care about 09:25:18 <Qantourisc> not standard enough 09:25:34 <Qantourisc> and also not open 09:25:43 <Qantourisc> the mayor block ... where can i buy mac to run on my pc ? 09:25:47 <planetmaker> certainly more open than windows... 09:25:58 <Terkhen> so open == good quality? 09:26:00 <Terkhen> :P 09:26:04 <planetmaker> :-) 09:26:06 <Qantourisc> open != good quality 09:26:24 <appe> openttd = good quality 09:26:26 <planetmaker> open =!=> good quality 09:26:26 <appe> <3 09:26:34 <planetmaker> good quality =!=> open 09:26:34 <__ln__> Qantourisc: buy a mac mini, it fits nicely on top of almost any PC. 09:26:45 <appe> open <insert goods train on maglev> good quality 09:26:45 <planetmaker> closed source =!=> good quality 09:26:50 <planetmaker> and vice versa 09:26:50 <Qantourisc> __ln__: why ... it's illigical (from my point of view) 09:27:02 <Qantourisc> actually i'd verry mutch like to run MacOSx to learn it ... 09:27:07 <Qantourisc> however ... i CANT 09:27:10 <appe> who needs a mac mini when you can buy an aspire revo? 09:27:27 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: it's feasible ;-) 09:27:37 <__ln__> Qantourisc: you can, just buy a mac and you can run mac os x. 09:27:41 <Qantourisc> yea i know ... but is that waht we want ? 09:27:43 <Terkhen> now, "expensive" is something I can understand :P 09:27:45 <Celestar> as long as I don't have control .. it's bad. 09:27:47 <planetmaker> e.g. openttd's CF runs OSX inside a VM... 09:27:59 <appe> id like ottd on ipad.. 09:28:08 <Qantourisc> __ln__: why would i want to buy hardware .. i already have hardware 09:28:21 <planetmaker> appe: it's neen done... but we must not upload to AppStore 09:28:31 <peter1138> gah 09:28:38 <__ln__> Qantourisc: because your current hardware cannot run what you would want to. 09:28:42 <peter1138> need a new modem/router/ap :S 09:28:44 <planetmaker> which is for example one of the things I don't like with apple at all 09:28:55 <Qantourisc> __ln__: it can 09:29:05 <Qantourisc> and if it runs openttd where are 50% there :) 09:29:19 <__ln__> Qantourisc: i think you just said it can't. 09:29:32 <Qantourisc> ow ... but whoos fault is that ? 09:29:37 <Qantourisc> my hardware's or macs ? 09:29:50 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: if it's only about openttd you don't have to swap your OS. Most likely 09:29:51 <planetmaker> ;-) 09:30:05 <__ln__> Qantourisc: if your PC can't run an Xbox game, whose fault is that? 09:30:24 <Qantourisc> an xbox game is not an OS /) 09:30:31 <planetmaker> it is 09:30:39 <Qantourisc> also: http://www.emulator-zone.com/doc.php/xbox/ 09:30:46 <planetmaker> or rather the xbox-os 09:31:02 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: as said, it's feasible to run osx in a VM 09:31:04 <__ln__> Qantourisc: fine, but that's not the current Xbox 360. 09:31:15 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: do you know what hacks i have to apply ? 09:31:26 <Terkhen> meh 09:31:28 <planetmaker> no(t all) 09:31:52 <Celestar> wtf are you on about? 09:32:55 <Qantourisc> Celestar: running mac on pc hardware 09:33:03 <Celestar> ew. 09:33:08 <Celestar> run FreeBSD? 09:33:17 <planetmaker> :-) Not quite identical 09:33:20 <peter1138> is it not possible to provide a download for openttd on ipad? 09:33:30 <Qantourisc> Celestar: OpenBSD ? 09:33:35 <peter1138> or are they locked down so that you can only get things from the store? 09:33:51 <Celestar> peter1138: are they?! 09:34:03 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: you can download stuff, that allows to download stuff 09:34:04 <peter1138> i don't know 09:34:17 <planetmaker> iPad iirc allows to download. iPhone not and needs jail-breaking 09:34:21 <Qantourisc> but appstore doesn't allow adding extra mirrors 09:34:34 <Celestar> what's the point of the iPhone without jail-breaking? 09:34:42 <Qantourisc> Celestar: fancywhere 09:34:46 <Qantourisc> *wear 09:35:03 <Celestar> get a nice BMW 6 Series if you need fancywear :P 09:35:21 <Qantourisc> the sad thing atm, a jailbreaked iphone atm is the best phone option atm ... 09:35:28 <Celestar> I don't think so 09:35:37 <Qantourisc> still waiting on a proper phone OS :/ 09:35:46 <Celestar> I think the Sensation beats the iPhone 4 heands down 09:35:50 <Celestar> so does the SII 09:35:57 <Qantourisc> os ? 09:36:04 <Celestar> Android 09:36:16 <Qantourisc> did they fix there bugs yet ? 09:36:37 <Qantourisc> *their 09:38:49 <Qantourisc> android is becomming an option 09:38:55 <Qantourisc> still pitty they decided on the java stack 09:40:55 <Qantourisc> the most important ascpects of a phone for me are: Security, compatiblity with default protocols (imap, caldav, carddav, ical, ...), ability to cram a SSH client on it, not needing to jailbrake, able to upload custom updated rom EASILY, a proper OS 09:42:50 <Qantourisc> BTW what's a good train station width ? 09:43:02 <peter1138> whatever fits 09:43:10 <Qantourisc> so as wide as you can ? :) 09:43:31 <peter1138> i always end up adding platforms 09:43:37 <peter1138> gets tricky in towns :) 09:44:09 <Qantourisc> peter1138: preblock the area :) 09:44:25 <Qantourisc> probably cheaper then flatting half the town 09:47:02 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20111008085652]] 09:47:32 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Quit: *Throws a nuclear warhead in the room and flees*] 09:47:48 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 09:55:26 <Qantourisc> How do i demolish PART of a station ? 09:55:29 <Qantourisc> and not the entire thing ? 09:55:47 <Celestar> hold ... ctrl? 09:55:49 <Celestar> some button 09:55:50 <Celestar> :P 09:55:56 <Celestar> erm 09:56:06 <Celestar> FFS I cannot remember O_o 09:56:12 <Celestar> go to build station and press R 09:56:22 <MNIM> Qantourisc: select the build station tool, then press the bulldozer. 09:56:39 <Qantourisc> indeed 09:56:41 <Qantourisc> thanks 09:56:55 <Qantourisc> costy mistake at this time of the game :) 09:57:41 <Qantourisc> btw can i put 2 7l trains on a 14l station ? 09:58:50 <planetmaker> not in the way you probably mean that 09:59:52 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: 2 stations stopped at the same time 10:00:10 <Qantourisc> zo <station><train/><train/></station> 10:00:22 <Qantourisc> Wow the first time in my life i found a usefull life for xml :) 10:00:25 <planetmaker> stations are immobile ;-) 10:00:57 <Qantourisc> euu yes 2 trains stopped :) 10:01:19 <planetmaker> two trains always need to be separated by a signal (or have non-crossing paths in a signal block with path signals). 10:01:26 <Qantourisc> ok 10:01:31 <planetmaker> Thus on one track in a station does not fit that case 10:02:30 <peter1138> i miss those early days of cargo dest & subsidiaries/infrastructure sharing... 10:03:59 <peter1138> hmm, might be making that up :) 10:07:37 <Celestar> :O) 10:08:54 <Qantourisc> peter1138: sharing ? 10:09:17 <Qantourisc> peter1138: and would you get paid for the tracks the competition used ? 10:09:25 <Qantourisc> if so: SWEET 10:09:33 <Qantourisc> PS, if any has a "co-op" server running 10:09:37 <Qantourisc> with FICS or ecs :) 10:09:46 <Qantourisc> and wants to see more life :) 10:11:44 <peter1138> Qantourisc, yup 10:11:51 <Qantourisc> peter1138: really ? 10:12:01 <Qantourisc> peter1138: 24/24 7/7 ? 10:12:27 <Qantourisc> peter1138: there is still room on the map right ? =) 10:13:07 <planetmaker> peter1138: then... we should re-implement infrastructure sharing a 3rd time? This time for real? ;-) 10:13:28 <b_jonas> why, we already have road and buoy sharing 10:13:30 <Qantourisc> peter1138: servername ? 10:13:35 <b_jonas> isn't that enough? 10:13:39 <Qantourisc> b_jonas: NO 10:13:41 <peter1138> Qantourisc, it's a 5 year old patch 10:13:50 <b_jonas> also we share the sea and the air 10:13:53 <planetmaker> 3 ;-) 10:13:56 <Qantourisc> the mayor PITA, is tracks take room 10:14:08 <Qantourisc> peter1138: i don't follow, i need it for your server ? 10:14:12 <peter1138> well, started 5 years ago :p 10:14:15 <peter1138> what server? 10:14:30 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: no such server exists. and if so, you'd need a custom-compiled client 10:14:38 <b_jonas> Qantourisc: that's why I'm now playing with a map with fewer industries, that way I have more space for everything 10:14:45 <Qantourisc> "PS, if any has a "co-op" server running /n with FICS or ecs :) /n and wants to see more life :)" -> "peter1138: Qantourisc, yup" 10:14:48 <Yexo> Qantourisc: peter1138 answered "yes" to your question about "Sharing? and would you get paid?", not to "has anyone a server running" 10:14:58 <Qantourisc> Yexo: i thougged so :) 10:15:15 <Qantourisc> peter1138: also add the option to flag WHAT can be shared 10:15:19 <Qantourisc> peter1138: and a price for using it :) 10:15:26 <peter1138> planetmaker, never looked at the IS code 10:15:32 <planetmaker> :-) 10:15:41 <peter1138> have played it though, a while ago. what does it do wrong? 10:16:03 <Qantourisc> So anyone else for the siestion ""PS, if any has a "co-op" server running /n with FICS or ecs :) /n and wants to see more life on their server:)" 10:16:05 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: the problems are not the ideas what (generally) should be feasible. But how to solve corner-cases and avoid exploits 10:16:19 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: corner cases ? 10:16:26 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: exploits: let the player open their tracks 10:16:28 <Yexo> Qantourisc: have you checked the openttdcoop servers? Not sure what grfs they use though 10:16:41 <Qantourisc> openttdcoop are restrictive no ? 10:16:48 <planetmaker> coop welcome server should run only bananas grfs 10:16:50 <Yexo> everyone can play there 10:17:03 <Yexo> both ecs and firs are on bananas, so that doesn't help here :p 10:17:13 <planetmaker> the other, might require some extra sometimes. Available as bundled download, though 10:17:18 <planetmaker> See link in #openttdcoop 10:17:31 <Qantourisc> they are not "standard" gfrx ? 10:17:41 <planetmaker> but the PS only rarely runs ECS or FIRS 10:17:56 <planetmaker> the stable server does so much more often 10:18:00 <Yexo> Qantourisc: no grf is standard 10:18:08 <V453000> ECS is never used on either of those ;) 10:18:14 <Qantourisc> with standard i mean in the online repo's :) 10:18:26 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 10:18:38 <planetmaker> the PublicServer sometimes uses (still) other, old NewGRFs 10:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "feature" of the day: OSX's terminal application can be accelerated by deleting the system logs 10:22:44 <Eddi|zuHause> now if that's not windows-y :p 10:23:03 <planetmaker> ehm... ? 10:23:06 <planetmaker> is that so? 10:23:24 <Eddi|zuHause> http://osxdaily.com/2010/05/06/speed-up-a-slow-terminal-by-clearing-log-files/ 10:23:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that page is scaring me... 10:24:30 <planetmaker> me, too 10:24:57 <Noldo> "rm is dangerous to newbs" 10:27:49 <planetmaker> sounds as sane as the instructions for homebrew 10:28:02 <planetmaker> which kinda "require" exclusive access to /usr/local 10:28:03 <planetmaker> https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew/wiki/FAQ#sudo 10:28:12 <planetmaker> and it's "easy to use" oh yeah 10:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "1 - 0 < 0 is an OR construct" <-- wtf? this is total nonsense... 10:28:54 <planetmaker> it si 10:28:56 <planetmaker> *is 10:30:31 <peter1138> boggle 10:30:52 <peter1138> also 10:30:54 <peter1138> toyland map 10:30:57 <peter1138> with many 'trees' 10:31:00 <peter1138> is... blurgh 10:31:26 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: original toyland or opengfx toyland? 10:31:31 <peter1138> original 10:41:42 * appe eats peter1138 with caviar 10:43:24 <planetmaker> iew 10:44:59 <appe> hm, what an exciting freud moment i just had 10:45:19 <appe> the reason i said caviar was because i was thinking about family guy, and the episode "peter, peter, caviar eater". 10:45:28 <appe> but i didnt realize that but after i said it. 10:45:41 <appe> the mind is some freaky stuff. 10:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i should feel lucky that i have no clue what you just said 10:57:26 <Elukka> Eddi - i know it's not finished, but i giggled at "Axle scheme: Candyfloss" 10:57:27 <Elukka> in cets 10:57:35 <Elukka> and all those steamers have plastic axles! what is this, ddr piko? 11:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: which openttd version? 11:01:36 <Elukka> r23035 11:01:41 <Yexo> too old :) 11:02:06 <Yexo> you need r23045 or newer 11:04:02 <Elukka> i see 11:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: and none of my DDR Piko vehicles have plastic axles :p 11:04:55 <Elukka> i have some really cheap piko ones that i think might be from the period 11:05:03 <Elukka> they have plastic wheels and axles 11:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> wheels maybe, but not usually axles... 11:11:12 <b_jonas> plastic axles? what scale are those used at? 11:11:27 <Elukka> really cheap HO, apparently 11:11:53 <b_jonas> I see 11:12:09 <Elukka> speaking of modern trains... what really bugs me are visible mold lines 11:12:25 <Elukka> you'd think for a 300 eur locomotive someone at some point in production could have spent a minute removing them 11:12:27 <Elukka> it's really trivial 11:12:33 <Elukka> err, *model trains 11:13:20 <Elukka> trivial before it's painted, anyway 11:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the most expensive model i have has a price tag of "EVP 116,- M" 11:22:29 <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately it doesn't run well 11:24:38 <b_jonas> EVP? 11:27:08 <Elukka> mine (well, the two of them) hover around the 200 eur price range which is a tad more than i can comfortably afford 11:27:16 <Elukka> i figure i want to have a hobby if i at all can, though 11:27:32 <b_jonas> yes, having a hobby is a good idea 11:27:35 <b_jonas> at least I think so 11:29:17 <Elukka> you can manage cheaper, but i like fancy stuff like sound and detail 11:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einzelhandelsverkaufspreis 11:38:26 <b_jonas> ah, so that's a qualifier, not the unit of measurement 11:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, "M" is the unit 11:38:47 <b_jonas> right 11:39:42 <planetmaker> (Blech) Mark :-P 11:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think "Alu" Mark is a more common name :) 11:40:36 <planetmaker> might be, yes 11:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> although you'd only need that qualifier after the borders opened 11:42:50 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 11:44:37 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 11:47:54 *** NamNT [~namnt@222.253.91.104] has joined #openttd 11:47:57 <NamNT> hello 11:48:06 <NamNT> thank you very much for the game 11:48:18 <NamNT> i finally managed to beat Road Runner AI today 11:48:33 <NamNT> it's probably a child play to you all 11:49:09 <NamNT> but i feel good, heh 11:49:19 <planetmaker> hehe 11:50:12 <Celestar> hm. 11:50:21 <Celestar> new VW Up! test on the highwa 11:50:31 <Celestar> at 140km/h it's fuel consumption is around 6.5l/100km 11:50:44 <Celestar> ... 11:50:54 <Celestar> I manage that with a 313HP BMW 535d as well. 11:51:00 * Celestar is not impressed 11:51:37 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 11:54:17 *** BCMM [~ben@87.127.17.38] has joined #openttd 11:55:54 <BCMM> is it possible, when loading a savegame, to choose which company to control? 11:56:16 <BCMM> (the game was saved during a multiplayer session) 11:56:19 <NamNT> http://techualization.blogspot.com/2011/11/some-tips-to-win-openttd-game.html 11:56:36 <NamNT> (a shameless plug due to overhyperactivity after winning against Road Runner) 11:57:06 <NamNT> BCMM, just curious, how long does one multiplayer game usually last? 11:57:15 <BCMM> depends on the server 11:57:30 <BCMM> i've been playing Luukland's Citybuilder servers, which take a little less than three hours 11:57:31 <NamNT> typically? 11:57:44 <BCMM> i don't really play other multiplayer 11:57:44 <NamNT> 3 hours 11:57:57 <NamNT> DotA takes about an hour 11:58:14 <NamNT> Heroes of Might and Magic a whole day :-D 11:58:21 <BCMM> citybuilder is where the objective is to grow a city by providing it with various cargo, rather than to make the most money 11:59:01 <NamNT> i once managed to grow a city to "overtake" three other surrounding towns 11:59:14 <BCMM> so i have a savegame from the end of a citybuilder game, and want to make some modifications to my rail network just to see what happens 11:59:32 <BCMM> but when i load the game, i don't end up controlling the right player 11:59:45 <Noldo> I think you can cheat yourself into any company 11:59:47 <planetmaker> BCMM: use the company cheat 11:59:52 <planetmaker> ctrl+alt+c 12:00:16 <BCMM> planetmaker: ah! thank you 12:08:00 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:11 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 12:09:51 <appe> i like citybuilding 12:09:58 <appe> feels like contributing 12:10:26 <appe> though, a thing i dont like with the current core towns are the amount of people/square you can get in 12:10:30 <appe> it's way too little 12:10:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> at 140km/h it's fuel consumption is around 6.5l/100km <-- i guess that's less than my 18 year old renault... 12:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... something broke the stuck trains patch... 12:11:45 <appe> hybrid? 12:12:15 <appe> the volvo v50 does less the .65 per ten kilometers of highway 12:12:54 <appe> a normal 1 1/2 tonne car built after 2010 should not reach over .5, unless its a bugatti veyron or a scania truck. 12:13:12 <appe> on highway drive, that is. 12:13:48 <NamNT> how do you build a highway? 12:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... weird... something removed all changes to src/rail_map.h ... why would it do that? 12:15:51 <planetmaker> a hg revert src/rail_map.h is supposed to do that ;-) 12:15:53 <MNIM> appe: that's a fast truck, if it's as fast as a buggatti :P 12:16:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: unlikely in an svn checkout 12:16:13 <planetmaker> :-) 12:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i guess there was some stray change in another patch, that wasn't supposed to be there 12:17:26 <appe> MNIM: hehe 12:17:58 <appe> MNIM: fun fact: the bugatti veyron uses it's full 100 litre fuel tank in twelve minutes while driving in the top speed gear. 12:18:11 <appe> the tires must be changed in fifteen.. 12:19:38 <appe> that's what you get with a million dollars. 12:21:29 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22:29 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7839.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:22:49 <MNIM> ...only 100l? 12:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> now find a stretch of autobahn where you can actually drive that fast without disturbance... 12:23:32 <planetmaker> A14 between Halle and Magdeburg ;-) 12:23:43 <appe> you cant 12:23:49 <planetmaker> or A27 between Walsrode and Bremen 12:23:55 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 12:24:03 <appe> 407km/h is not a safe speed, and wouldnt be allowed on the free parts of the autobahn, i guess 12:24:19 <planetmaker> it would 12:24:22 <appe> that's like ..100 meters a second or something. 12:24:39 <planetmaker> there's no speed limit in that parts I quoted 12:24:58 <appe> well, the lack of speed limit does not exceed reckless driving 12:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> A14 between Halle and Magdeburg ;-) <-- are you insane? that stretch is *overfilled* with slow trucks, often overtaking each other 12:25:06 <appe> :> 12:25:33 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: usually not when I drive there. It uses to be the most empty strecht of highway. Especially sundays 12:25:36 <appe> and i guess the german police has higher priorities on safe driving, when there are no physical speed limits 12:25:56 <appe> if i were a cop, id stop it. or at least wave enthusiasticly. 12:25:57 <appe> :D 12:26:08 <planetmaker> appe: they'd have no grounds to stop you 12:26:25 <planetmaker> unless you really pose a danger other than driving fast 12:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: speed alone does not constitute reckless driving 12:27:03 <planetmaker> appe: it's Germany. There the unlimited speed on highways is kinda considered a fundamental liberty ;-) 12:27:27 <appe> haha 12:27:28 <appe> :) 12:27:47 <appe> what is the human response time? a second and a half? 12:27:55 <appe> that's 350 meters in veyron top speed 12:28:01 <planetmaker> no. 300msec 12:28:04 <planetmaker> at most 12:28:11 <planetmaker> when you're attentive 12:28:15 <appe> between realizing and braking? 12:28:19 <planetmaker> yes 12:28:22 <MNIM> well 12:28:26 <planetmaker> rather 200msec 12:28:35 <MNIM> not for your usual city-driving idiot 12:28:38 <appe> hehe 12:28:42 <planetmaker> though of course not, if you're lazy and unattentive 12:29:04 <MNIM> but somebody doing 100m/s is not inclined to be lazy and inattentive 12:29:24 <MNIM> well, unless you're a jet pilot 12:29:29 <planetmaker> MNIM: I'd not bet on that 12:29:49 <appe> trying to achieve the veyron top speed on the autobahn feels inattentive as it is. 12:30:01 <appe> air fields *pro tip* 12:31:15 <MNIM> most international airports don't go a lot past 4000m 12:31:18 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: you beat me to making such a comment :P 12:31:28 <MNIM> 4000m is not a lot of space to achieve 400kmh 12:31:33 <TrueBrain> what a bullshit did that guy wrote ... if you don't know anything about C(++), it is mostly better to shut the fuck up :D 12:31:44 <MNIM> most jets in fact do not get that fast. 12:32:00 <b_jonas> MNIM: you mean on the ground? 12:32:10 <MNIM> well, within 4000m. 12:32:15 <planetmaker> take-off speed usually is quite a bit slower than 400km/h 12:32:22 <b_jonas> I mean, in the air they usually go 900 km/h 12:32:34 <MNIM> take-off is 300 at max for commercial flights 12:32:41 <appe> MNIM: that reminds me of the fantastic top gear challange. 12:32:47 <appe> MNIM: jet fighter vs. veyron. 12:32:56 <MNIM> ah yeah. 12:33:07 <appe> that might be the coolest thing a man can do 12:33:16 <appe> ever. 12:33:30 <MNIM> veyron has more acceleration below 100kmh, but a jet's power output increases with speed 12:33:32 <appe> that, and driving a nuclear bomb filled freight train into a mountain 12:34:11 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:26 <planetmaker> appe: you should just see how a nuclear waste transport by train happens to work here ;-) 12:34:33 <appe> MNIM: as seen in the race. the veyron is a lot quicker the first fifty meters, to later be completely dwarfed. 12:35:48 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 12:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> <appe> trying to achieve the veyron top speed on the autobahn feels inattentive as it is. <-- that's why usual commercial cars are capped at 240km/h, even if they could go faster 12:36:56 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: I heared it's 250 km/h, not that it matters much 12:38:09 <MNIM> well, in germany at least :P 12:39:48 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: hehe, and yet, the veyron is limited to 407.. 12:39:53 <appe> i wonder how fast it would actually go 12:40:15 <MNIM> ehhh 12:40:34 <MNIM> I think at some time past 400 it'll gain a positive vs 12:40:47 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AD67.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:49 <MNIM> which isn't good in something that does not have wings :P 12:40:57 <appe> vs? 12:40:59 <appe> aha 12:41:00 <MNIM> ehh 12:41:03 <MNIM> vertical speed 12:41:08 <MNIM> sorry, aviation lingo. 12:41:09 <appe> that might not end well. 12:41:22 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a show where they tried when a speed measurement fails in a way that the car is not on the photo anymore 12:41:26 <appe> wasnt that the case with the old mclaren f1? 12:41:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and it was something like 270km/h 12:42:49 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AD67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 12:43:44 <appe> MNIM: if i remember correctly, the german 'gumpert' acheived some speed limit until it basicly flipped in the air. 12:44:26 <planetmaker> appe: if you build a car which lifts off at a certain speed it's ill-constructed. 12:44:43 <planetmaker> with the right spoilers it'll be pressed down to the road the faster it goes 12:45:06 <appe> well, neither the veyron nor gumpert can achieve those speeds with the normal limiter. 12:45:14 <appe> and i guess that wasnt the case with the mcf1. 12:48:02 <appe> ah, here we are 12:48:14 <MNIM> planetmaker: not so. car design is limited by the fact that the car body itself is a huge lifting body in itself. 12:48:18 <appe> "At Petit Le Mans race in Road Atlanta, the 911 GT1 '98 of Yannick Dalmas made a spectacular backward flip and landed rear first before hitting the side barriers, as did the BMW V12 LMR at the same race in 2000, and most infamously the Mercedes-Benz CLR at Le Mans in 1999." 12:48:37 <appe> you know you are fast when your car is flying. 12:48:55 <appe> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/911_GT1_Front.jpg 12:48:57 <MNIM> this lifting aspect of a car is simply not possible to completely remove. 12:49:17 <MNIM> plus, there's the detrimental ground interactions. 12:49:27 <Belugas> hello 12:49:51 <planetmaker> hello Belugas 12:49:52 <appe> MNIM: i was wondering, doesnt scaling of the cars size affect what speed you can achieve? 12:50:19 <Belugas> hi hi planetmaker :) 12:50:20 <MNIM> only in a limited way. 12:50:22 <appe> MNIM: that is, a car with x size and y "push to the ground", gets a bigger maximum speed with scaling? 12:50:44 <MNIM> well, you got to remember that one can only scale a car so much 12:50:52 <appe> yes, of course 12:51:06 <appe> they veyron is not that big, though 12:51:12 <MNIM> for other vehicles, the case definitely implies. 12:51:17 <appe> two tonnes, or something. 12:51:30 <MNIM> however, aircraft and ships do not have to bother with rolling resistance 12:51:40 <MNIM> which is a major component in solid ground-based transport. 12:51:50 <appe> rolling resistance? 12:52:01 <MNIM> a wheel rolls over the ground 12:52:24 <MNIM> rolling drag would perhaps be a better word 12:52:28 <appe> aha 12:52:39 <appe> with what factor does it increase with speed? 12:52:51 <MNIM> I accidentally tried to literally translate from my own native language. 12:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't increase with speed 12:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> wind resistance increases with speed 12:53:13 <MNIM> it does, eddi 12:53:25 <MNIM> linearly, as opposed to quadratic air drag 12:53:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23083 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp): -Fix: run StartupEngines() if NewGRFs changed during loading a savegame, just like it's running when NewGRFs are changed during a game 12:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause> rolling resistance rather decreases, due to the wheels getting warmer 12:53:56 <MNIM> minimally, eddi 12:54:12 <MNIM> there's a reason why high-speed trains simply don't go much past 300 12:54:24 <Celestar> yeah. 12:54:27 <Celestar> wear and tear. 12:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that reason is wind resistance 12:54:36 <Celestar> an ICE can go around 420km/h. 12:54:47 <Eddi|zuHause> especially at tunnel entrances 12:54:48 <MNIM> not regularly. 12:54:53 <Celestar> yes. 12:54:57 <MNIM> besides loss of efficiency due to wind and rolling resistance, there's material wear 12:54:58 <Celestar> because of wear and tear. 12:55:05 <Celestar> which makes the cost explode. 12:55:07 <MNIM> which *does* increas quadratically with ground speed 12:55:18 <Celestar> MNIM: not for airplanes. 12:55:28 <MNIM> actually, it does 12:55:36 <Celestar> no. it doesn't. 12:55:36 <Eddi|zuHause> if you enter a tunnel beyond 600km/h, you might as well go right into the mountain... 12:55:39 <MNIM> though the curve is *far* higher than ground transport. 12:56:07 <MNIM> there's a reason why most civvy aircraft don't go past 900 12:56:08 <Celestar> MNIM: aerodynamic drag has a minimum for airplanes. 12:56:14 <Celestar> it's not ~x² 12:56:26 <Celestar> v² even. 12:56:31 <MNIM> I know. 12:56:49 <MNIM> but even for aircraft a max speed applies mostly due to wear and tear. 12:56:53 <appe> v^2 is a alot.. 12:56:54 <planetmaker> MNIM: the 1000km/h boundary has another reason... 12:57:02 <Celestar> a VERY other reason :P 12:57:06 <Celestar> Mach resistance. 12:57:10 <MNIM> I know that. 12:57:17 <planetmaker> which is the onset of turbulence due to ^^^ 12:57:24 <MNIM> they can theoretically go 1000, in fact, most can in reality 12:57:33 <MNIM> but it's not very nice for your engines, for starters 12:57:56 <planetmaker> you want other engines than commercial airliners have 12:57:58 <Celestar> TAS? nope. 12:57:58 <Celestar> not in straigh and level flight. 12:58:30 <MNIM> yes they can. 12:58:47 <MNIM> not at MTOW, naturally, but most aircraft can't even get to cruise at MTOW 12:58:54 <appe> mtow? 12:59:04 <MNIM> maximum take-off weight 12:59:15 <Celestar> considering that you need time to get to cruise, you will be lower than MTOW 12:59:52 <MNIM> as a general rule, yes. 12:59:57 <Celestar> but 1000km/h is basically impossible in straight and level for most airliners. 12:59:57 <Celestar> MAYBE the 747SP manages 12:59:57 <Celestar> otoh. 12:59:57 <Celestar> we're talking Mach numbers. 12:59:57 <Celestar> if it's hot enough up there, maybe :P 13:00:16 <Celestar> and for modern airbii .... 13:00:18 <MNIM> quite the opposite, celestar 13:00:26 <appe> got damnit 13:00:30 <appe> i hate openttd airfield 13:00:31 <appe> s 13:00:33 <MNIM> higher temperature means less engine power 13:00:36 <Celestar> good luck getting past the overspeed protection. 13:00:43 <Celestar> MNIM: but higher speed of sound :P 13:00:57 <MNIM> quite irrelevant. 13:01:01 <Celestar> well you CAN get around the overspeed protection, theoretically :P 13:01:14 <Celestar> push the circut breaker of two ELACs :P 13:01:19 <Celestar> and then ... get a new job. 13:01:29 <MNIM> at most aircraft's cruise height, you're still a way away from the speed of sound or overspeed 13:01:56 <Celestar> you are around 20-40 KIAS from overspeed. 13:02:14 <MNIM> which equals about 100kmh at that altitude 13:02:24 <appe> is there a grf that allows me to make bigger airports, or at least build them together? 13:02:28 <Celestar> which isn't much. 13:02:43 <Celestar> one bad gust and you're in there. 13:02:47 <appe> btw, i was thinking 13:02:56 <Celestar> then your airbus will reduce engine power and pull up the nose. 13:02:59 <MNIM> gust generally don't exist at FL360 13:03:05 <Celestar> LMAO 13:03:08 <Celestar> right. 13:03:23 <appe> afaik, most speed measurements rely on how much air you suck into a given point. how can this be used on altitude where air is thinner with vertical position? 13:03:37 <MNIM> appe: no grfs alone. there's a patch which supposedly works, though 13:03:47 <Celestar> appe: because what matters for aerodynamics is NOT the actualy speed. 13:03:52 <MNIM> appe: gps, doppler 13:03:58 <Celestar> appe: but v² * density. 13:04:07 <MNIM> roughly. 13:04:09 <Celestar> so indicated airspeed is the best measurement you have. 13:04:28 <Celestar> MNIM: modern high-end long range airliners are scaringly close to the coffin corner. 13:04:45 <MNIM> at their max speed, yes. not at cruise 13:04:52 <Celestar> at cruise. 13:05:05 <Celestar> there's not much headroom. 13:05:28 <Celestar> ask the AF447 pilots. 13:05:30 <MNIM> only 360k feet 13:05:31 <MNIM> :P 13:05:34 <Celestar> no wait. you can't. 13:05:51 <Celestar> as AF447 shows, 36k feet isn't much headroom either :P 13:06:15 <Celestar> it's not enough to recover a completly intact airliner from a (deep?) stall. 13:06:43 <MNIM> deep stall is usually a condition you prefer to prevent rather than recover. 13:06:53 <appe> Celestar: i see 13:07:05 <Celestar> MNIM: well. any kind of stall. 13:07:19 <MNIM> Celestar: not necessarily. 13:07:23 <Celestar> and with the A330 in normal mode, she won't let you stall. 13:07:31 <appe> what does deep stall mean? 13:07:45 <MNIM> the difference between stall and deep stall is that deep stall is A: a design fault B: virtually unrecoverable 13:07:54 <Celestar> BS 13:08:16 <Celestar> a deep stall is a stall where the horizonal stabilizer and elevator are either in the wake of the stalled wing, or stalled themselves, rendering them unusable. 13:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> is that like the difference between a "GAU" and a "SuperGAU"? 13:08:25 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: nope. 13:08:34 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: two totally different recovery techniques. 13:08:35 *** NamNT [~namnt@222.253.91.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:09:08 <MNIM> that's why I called design fault. 13:09:13 <planetmaker> nevertheless a deep stall is something I'd avoid at quite a cost ;-) 13:09:19 <Celestar> a deep stall isn'T a design fault :P 13:09:22 <MNIM> yes, you should :P 13:09:36 <MNIM> proper aircraft design makes it virtually impossible to to go that far 13:09:43 <Celestar> erm. 13:09:50 <Celestar> you can stall ANY aircraft. 13:10:02 <MNIM> on purpose, yes. 13:10:11 <planetmaker> MNIM: is right though: some designs make it easier to get into deep stall 13:10:11 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:1dc7:46c9:a51b:34e8] has joined #openttd 13:10:14 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "virtually impossible"... 13:10:18 <MNIM> when you're not doing it on purpose, it shouldn't be able to 13:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd slap everybody in the face who uses that word 13:10:32 <MNIM> as in general an aircraft is designed to provide more forward momentum the bigger the AOA is 13:10:32 <Celestar> MNIM: I suppose you are not an ATPL holder :P 13:10:49 <MNIM> it should correct itself. 13:11:07 <planetmaker> you have one, Celestar? 13:11:33 <Celestar> planetmaker: nope :P 13:11:37 <MNIM> the biggest exceptions are military (offensive) aircraft 13:11:39 <planetmaker> oh :-( 13:11:41 <Celestar> planetmaker: aerospace engineer, remember? :P 13:11:55 <Celestar> but I know the other side pretty well. 13:11:57 <planetmaker> yes, of course. That doesn't include piloting licenses, you know ;-) 13:12:22 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:24 <MNIM> since that self-correcting moment does also reduce maneuverability 13:12:37 <Celestar> MNIM: you're talking about something completly different here. 13:12:43 <planetmaker> once in a deep stall there's hardly any self-correcting moment... 13:12:59 <Celestar> MNIM: stability around the pitch axis has nothing to do with "automagic" stall recovery. 13:13:00 <MNIM> planetmaker: quite the opposite, in fact 13:13:18 <MNIM> it does. 13:13:35 <Celestar> and once your AOA is around 40°, things look slightly different.... 13:13:54 <MNIM> true, but in general you shouldn't be in that range in the first place. 13:13:55 <planetmaker> 40° AoA... 13:13:56 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-168-83.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 13:14:03 <MNIM> unless you're a modern fighter pilot. 13:14:10 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 13:14:12 <Celestar> planetmaker: I've spent hours simulating the AF330 accident. in a real sim :P 13:14:22 <planetmaker> he :-) 13:14:47 <Celestar> MNIM: well. it happens. 13:14:52 <Celestar> MNIM: in an "unstallable" aircraft. 13:15:08 <Celestar> and the A330 is unstallable 13:15:14 <planetmaker> hm, AF330? 13:15:16 <Celestar> (in Normal Law) 13:15:32 <planetmaker> you mean AF447? 13:15:40 <Celestar> planetmaker: yeah. AF A330 I meant :P 13:15:46 <planetmaker> :-) 13:16:05 <planetmaker> so what was the cause again? :-) 13:16:19 <planetmaker> iirc it was piloting error and mis-judgement of the situation 13:16:22 <Celestar> if I knew, I would be more clever than the investigators :P 13:16:38 <Celestar> well piloting error.... 13:16:52 <Celestar> The pilots did not really realize they were in a stall condition. 13:17:00 <planetmaker> which is kinda bad 13:17:18 <planetmaker> though the plane should give clear indications of that situation 13:17:25 <planetmaker> stick shaker being one of it 13:17:54 <Celestar> the stall warning in the A330 disables below 60 KIAS. 13:18:05 <Celestar> and the IAS was below 60 knots. 13:18:05 <planetmaker> uh... 13:18:24 <planetmaker> that sounds like design fault 13:18:43 <MNIM> "The plane rolled slightly and the pilot flying pulled the nose back. The pilot repeatedly pulled back on the stick, producing a stall, continuing even while the stall warning sounded continuously for 54 seconds." 13:18:45 <MNIM> >.< 13:18:55 <planetmaker> yup 13:19:03 <planetmaker> pull back is the wrong reaction on stall 13:19:10 <MNIM> verily much so. 13:19:25 <planetmaker> that's why I said "pilot error" 13:19:26 <MNIM> the stall warning sounded, a wing dropped, and the AP disconnected. 13:19:38 <planetmaker> which it should upon stall 13:19:53 <MNIM> that should have been reason enough to nose-down. 13:20:03 <MNIM> basic pilot training. 13:20:22 <Celestar> first thing that happened was the plane switched to Alternate Law. 13:20:40 <__ln__> http://individual.utoronto.ca/somody/quiz.html 13:20:48 <planetmaker> what's that, Celestar? 13:21:23 <Celestar> planetmaker: it defines what protections you have. 13:21:44 <Celestar> planetmaker: Normal Law, Alternate Law, Abnormal (Alternate) Law, Direct Law, (Mechanical) 13:22:02 <Celestar> in Normal Law, you can pull the stick back all you want, you cannot stall. 13:22:31 <Celestar> in Alternate Law, the stall protection is lost. 13:22:53 <Celestar> so if the plane loses altitude, and the AP disconnects, the first thing you do is try to maintain alititude. 13:23:06 <planetmaker> to "fly the plane" ;-) 13:23:18 <Celestar> because with today's 500ft vertical separation, you have little room. 13:23:24 <glx> <MNIM> that should have been reason enough to nose-down. <-- but that's not the procedure 13:23:27 <planetmaker> should be priority. I watched too much airdisaster investigation ;-) 13:23:43 <planetmaker> well. over the mid-atlantic it hardly matters 13:23:43 <MNIM> no glx, only basic pilot training. 13:23:47 <MNIM> wing drops? nose down. 13:23:52 <MNIM> stall warning? nose down. 13:23:56 <Celestar> planetmaker: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. 13:24:04 <planetmaker> yup :-) 13:24:09 <MNIM> ap disconnect? nose-down, increase throttle. 13:24:16 <glx> for military pilots maybe MNIM, but civilian pilots don't learn that 13:24:26 <planetmaker> glx: sure they do 13:24:28 <Celestar> Nose down is HARD if the trim is full nose-up. 13:24:28 <glx> they follow the makers procedure 13:24:31 <MNIM> all pilots do. 13:24:47 <Celestar> also, if you are in a full stall you do NOT increase the throttle. 13:24:54 <planetmaker> though ap disconnect does not necessarily mean nose down... 13:25:16 <Celestar> because increasing the "throttle" pulls your nose up. 13:25:18 <MNIM> not necessarily, but stall or system malfunction is usually the cause 13:25:30 <MNIM> Celestar: aircraft dependant. 13:25:37 <Celestar> in civilian airlines, mostly. 13:25:44 <Celestar> all wing mounted 13:25:47 <MNIM> in modern transonic airliners, yes. 13:26:00 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:14 <Celestar> fact is, the AF447 situation is really complicated. 13:26:25 <MNIM> for most regional aircraft it isn't. 13:26:35 <glx> no fiable altitude info 13:26:46 <glx> in the middle of a storm 13:26:56 <Celestar> isolating the failure to recognize the stall is 1) jumping to conclusion and 2) dangerous. 13:27:38 <planetmaker> why is that dangerous? 13:27:51 <Celestar> because you might miss other failure points. 13:27:58 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 13:28:05 <Celestar> which could be remedied to avoid the problem in the future. 13:28:49 <Celestar> for example not using bad pitots in the first place. 13:28:53 <planetmaker> in the aftermath: yes. But when in the situation? Not sure 13:29:10 <Celestar> we're here in a hindsight situation :P 13:29:16 <planetmaker> :-) 13:29:31 <Celestar> if an A330 is in a stall, a multitude of things have already gone very wrong. 13:29:47 <planetmaker> In that case: of course all possible causes and contributions have to be considered 13:29:53 <Celestar> especially at cruise altitude and speed. 13:30:00 <planetmaker> as any way to make the situation less likely and easier to understand for the pilots 13:30:18 <Celestar> for example: an AOA display MIGHT have helped. 13:30:25 <planetmaker> the first was riding out that kind of storm ;-) 13:30:57 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:30:58 <planetmaker> though they might not have had a chance to avoid it 13:31:20 <glx> Sainte-Odile was a good example of missing understanding :) 13:31:25 <Celestar> the weather wasn't really an issue apart from the icing of the pitots. 13:31:51 <planetmaker> which is a usual thing to happen in that kind of weather 13:32:04 <glx> speed or angle displayed on the same screen without unit 13:32:12 <planetmaker> uh, yes 13:32:55 <Celestar> planetmaker: if you still have the friggen Thales equipment yes. Which most airlines have replaced by BF Goodrich (afaik) years ago due to exactly that issue 13:33:18 <planetmaker> iirc AF didn't. Or did they? 13:33:30 <Celestar> on some planes, yes. 13:36:29 <Celestar> but Thales being French might have played a role? 13:38:43 <planetmaker> :-) 13:39:13 <planetmaker> It's weired company, though I only learnt to know somewhat it's space division 13:39:18 <planetmaker> *its 13:40:43 <Celestar> anyway, the question is: If the pilots had known all the time that they were in a stall condition, would they have been able to recover? 13:44:51 <planetmaker> that's the 3nd question IMHO. The first is "why didn't they know?". The 2nd is "Why did they respond as they did?". And then that one 13:49:11 <michi_cc> AF didn't want the Backup Speed Scale, which is basically an AoA indicator (just without absolute numbers). 13:50:52 <Celestar> there IS an AOA indicator 13:51:07 <Celestar> on some page of the flight management computer. 13:51:25 <planetmaker> not helpful in such situation ;-) 13:51:35 <glx> there are too many pages ;) 13:52:18 <Celestar> indeed. 13:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the concept of "pages" sounds very wrong 13:52:30 <Celestar> you don't have time to browse through the output 13:53:15 <Celestar> several things to consider. 13:53:26 <glx> "hundreds" of displays was not better either 13:53:34 <Celestar> High-speed high altitude stalls are very rarely trained. 13:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> everything that you can't overview at a glance is like it's not there at all 13:54:27 <Celestar> High-speed high altitude stalls are very rarely trained because there is very very little data from those flight regimes and thus the simulation might be misleading, if not totally wrong. 13:55:07 <michi_cc> Offered since 2006 exactly because of previous problems with unreliable airspeed: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-backs-up-speed-and-altitude-displays-205645/ 13:55:18 <Celestar> michi_cc: yep 13:55:42 <Celestar> not sure the plane in question had that installed. 13:55:43 <Celestar> or rather I'm pretty sure she hadn't :P 13:56:01 <Qantourisc> OK reasking: anyone with a fun coop server ? 13:57:15 <Celestar> "âthe speed scale will display the back-up speed information derived from the angle of attack with the very simple logic â you have red and green and the logic is âfly the greenâ,â" 13:57:19 <Celestar> this is how it should be. 13:57:41 <michi_cc> AFAIR AF neither installed the BSS nor changed the pitot tubes after the 2007 recommendation by the manufacturer. 13:58:45 <Celestar> see above. maybe because Thales is French? 13:59:40 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 14:00:57 <michi_cc> Maybe, maybe not. They do fly non-french Boeings though 14:01:51 <Celestar> yeah sure. 14:02:17 <Celestar> but political pressure on AF is high. 14:04:13 <appe> is there a mac version of openttd? 14:05:34 <planetmaker> did you look? 14:06:18 <Qantourisc> appe: yes i saw it pass earlier today 14:06:31 <Qantourisc> appe: if you mean a version with trains that ship ipods ... no idea :) 14:10:20 <Celestar> michi_cc: for your newmap thing, what is and what isn'T finished yet? 14:11:07 <michi_cc> Celestar: The only user-visible change is multiple rail types and owners on a single tile. 14:11:46 <Celestar> michi_cc: well, but no "known bugs" left? 14:12:19 <michi_cc> My local repo also has changes to split MP_STATION up. 14:12:59 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.25.206.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:23 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.206.13] has joined #openttd 14:13:28 <michi_cc> Not really. There are two or three small fixes that exists only locally, but nothing big. And in theory you can compile a binary from any commit and still get a working OpenTTD. 14:13:37 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.206.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:49 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.206.13] has joined #openttd 14:14:01 <Celestar> michi_cc: split MP_STATION into what? 14:14:21 <michi_cc> MP_RAILWAY + MP_ROAD + MP_STATION 14:14:31 <Celestar> railway + road + station? :P 14:15:05 <michi_cc> Well, either road or rail :) It's not really needed now, but would make implementing road types easier. 14:15:12 <Celestar> yeah. 14:15:19 <Celestar> same for tunnels/bridges 14:15:28 <michi_cc> Next up after that would be devirtualization of wormholes. 14:16:35 <Celestar> so bridge would be MP_RAILWAY+MP_BRIDGE? 14:16:47 <Celestar> or MP_RAILWAY+MP_STATION+MP_BRIDGE :D 14:16:56 <planetmaker> :-D 14:17:34 <michi_cc> MP_BRIDGE would be the base tile. I'm not sure yet whether to split MP_TUNNELBRIDGE or keep the same type for both. 14:17:56 <Celestar> I found that splitting it removes a shitload of specialcasing. 14:18:11 <michi_cc> Tile order in the map storage is actually important because it's also the drawing order. 14:18:29 <Celestar> sounds right :) 14:19:25 <Celestar> so how would a road look with a rail bridge over it with a crossing rail bridge with station over that? :P 14:19:52 <Celestar> MP_ROAD + MP_BRIDGE + MP_RAILWAY + MP_BRIDGE + MP_RAILWAY + MP_STATION ? 14:20:14 <michi_cc> MP_CLEAR+MP_ROAD+MP_BRIDGE+MP_RAILWAY+MP_BRIDGE+MP_RAILWAY+MP_STATION 14:20:20 <Celestar> oh .. yeahz. .. CLEAR :P 14:20:48 <Celestar> which would then enable non-straight bridges :P 14:21:46 <appe> Qantourisc: :D 14:22:04 <appe> the headquarter on the mac core version should be steve jobs summer house in california 14:23:05 <planetmaker> appe: we cannot and must not differ between OS 14:23:13 <planetmaker> Or multiplayer would be inherently broken 14:24:02 <peter1138> hm 14:24:29 <Celestar> michi_cc: how does a "bridge" tile find its "bridge" neighbour ? 14:25:06 <peter1138> does it need to? 14:25:14 <michi_cc> Tile height 14:25:15 <Celestar> well... 14:25:30 <planetmaker> peter1138: of course one might use os-specific base sets... but they then would work on any OS 14:25:36 <michi_cc> For rail/road it would be a combination of tile height and enter direction 14:25:39 <Celestar> michi_cc: yeah, but algorithmically? traverse via the base tile or do you have some kinda cached map? 14:25:46 <peter1138> planetmaker, wasn't hming at that ;) 14:25:53 <planetmaker> :-) k 14:26:13 <appe> planetmaker: that's a very healthy approach, as much as it is a very serious answer to a not so serious question. 14:26:16 <appe> :p 14:26:34 <michi_cc> No idea yet :) Basic implementation would be by just traversing the stack at the tile index. Have to see whether something more complicated is even needed. 14:27:01 <Celestar> yeah 14:27:09 * Celestar is already prematurely optimizing 14:27:26 <appe> i just noticed something 14:27:32 <Celestar> a roach? 14:27:32 <appe> there isnt a reliant robin grf. 14:27:49 <Celestar> michi_cc: the more I look at it, the more I like your idea :) 14:28:15 <peter1138> as long as it'll run on my pc 14:28:24 <Celestar> peter1138: ? 14:37:10 <Celestar> YAY. 14:37:19 <Celestar> Zero Bug Beer \o/ 14:39:24 <Yexo> michi_cc: are there open problems why newmap could not be committed? 14:40:49 <planetmaker> was a performance test done (iirc yes, but... my memory)? 14:40:59 <michi_cc> Right now it comes with a noticeable performance hit. Repacking the map bits will help somewhat, as does chaning TileIndex to Tile* where possible, but in the end it will be slower. 14:41:14 <michi_cc> As I don't know how much slower... 14:41:25 <Celestar> I tried it with some large map yesterday. 14:41:33 <Celestar> with thousands of vehicles. 14:41:33 <Yexo> ok, tha's a clear answer :) 14:41:52 <MNIM> hmmmmh. 14:41:57 <MNIM> nuclear trains. 14:42:15 <Celestar> The TileLoop was about 50% slower (compared to a single m1-m7 struct). The VehicleLoop was nearly 10%. 14:42:33 <Celestar> The Vehicle loop took about 30 times as long as the vehicle loop 14:42:41 <peter1138> that doesn't have any context though 14:42:54 <Celestar> what context you need? :P 14:42:57 <peter1138> how much time overall is taken by the tileloop 14:43:07 <Celestar> 1.5 million cycles. 14:43:12 <peter1138> that's not time 14:43:26 <peter1138> 50% slower if it takes only 1% of the total cpu time 14:43:32 <peter1138> means nothing 14:43:53 <Celestar> it took around 2.5% 14:45:00 <planetmaker> peter1138: but as long as it's only a code change (and no gameplay advantage), a performance hit is not that much sensible 14:45:02 <Celestar> of course, on a new, unbuilt map, it's much higher. 14:45:47 <Celestar> well one thing is certain. if you want flexible tiles, it will be slower :P 14:46:19 <peter1138> planetmaker, more flexible bridges/tunnels/stations/etc probably does provide a gameplay advantage? 14:46:53 <planetmaker> yes, that does 14:47:02 <Celestar> and michi_cc's code is not yet optimized, I'm pretty sure at some point it will be faster if need be. 14:47:39 <planetmaker> peter1138: just saying without a patch queue to actually implement more flexibility for one of that would not (yet) make sense IMHO 14:48:05 <Celestar> it could start with some minor thing? Signals on bridges? 14:48:10 <Celestar> (for example) 14:49:07 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 14:49:08 <peter1138> well 14:49:20 <peter1138> obviously there's no point having it just by itself 14:49:29 <peter1138> no argument there :p 14:49:55 <peter1138> signals on bridges, yum 14:49:59 <peter1138> and tunnels, yum 14:50:03 <peter1138> and... erm. yeah 14:50:09 <Celestar> peter1138: context: Most expensive thing map-wise is GetTileSlope. 14:50:14 <michi_cc> I'll probably do some bridge stuff, but somebody else can figure out the GUI for building stuff in tunnels :p 14:50:19 <Celestar> peter1138: something that *could* be cached. 14:50:28 <peter1138> yup 14:50:30 <Celestar> michi_cc: I have some patch that allows 'slicing' the view by levels. 14:50:39 <Celestar> michi_cc: I'll find it for ya once I'm home 14:50:40 <peter1138> :D 14:50:57 <Celestar> which, unfortunatly, is saturday night :( 14:51:33 <Celestar> peter1138: performance-wise it might even help lots if we put the height of all 4 corners into a tile :P 14:52:26 <Yexo> would that help more than storing height of north corner + slope? 14:52:29 <michi_cc> Slope is "just" five bits 14:52:30 <Celestar> which could then, later be expanded to cliffs. 14:52:48 <Yexo> that's also possible if you just store the slope 14:52:53 <Celestar> michi_cc: yeah. 14:53:17 <Celestar> michi_cc: but determining the slope by using adjacent tiles is probably not efficient. 14:53:58 <planetmaker> might be more flexible, if you want to allow many different slopes or if you want to allow non-continuous terrain 14:54:02 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> peter1138: context: Most expensive thing map-wise is GetTileSlope. <-- it probably makes sense to explicitly store slope and foundation info 14:54:22 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: yeah that's what I thought. 14:54:25 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: caching it. 14:54:31 <planetmaker> would remove kinda the foundations stored separately but would be done implicitly then 14:56:09 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-168-83.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, foundation and cliff might be the same thing then. except maybe some graphics for randomly placed and player built cliffs 14:57:22 <planetmaker> yup 14:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (comparable to the difference between rivers and canals then) 14:57:52 <Celestar> since GetFoundatationSlope also costs quite a bit, it might help as well. 14:58:29 * Celestar thinks this calls for a prototype 14:58:55 <planetmaker> :-) 14:59:23 <planetmaker> I guess IF we really made an effort we could get the required ~1000 sprites needed for 90° rotation 14:59:29 <planetmaker> from the graphics community 14:59:40 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-213-49-88-158.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 14:59:56 <planetmaker> or 2x 1k sprites (opengfx and ttd) 15:00:14 <planetmaker> though it's problematic with newgrfs... might need a setting for newgrfs which says "allow rotations" 15:00:38 <Celestar> how's that related? :P 15:01:16 <planetmaker> Celestar: you cannot look behind cliffs 15:01:25 <planetmaker> thus tiles might become invisible 15:01:27 <Eddi|zuHause> we don't need rotation when we have slicing 15:01:31 <planetmaker> which is currently not the case 15:01:47 <planetmaker> or we need... the 3d with levels becoming invisible 15:02:13 <planetmaker> which might be a pseudo-3d, but just level-selective display 15:02:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what slicing does, cuts of the "top" levels to see the lower ones 15:02:47 <Celestar> planetmaker: yeah. slicing 15:02:54 <Celestar> i.e. hide all things above some level. 15:03:03 <planetmaker> k :-) 15:06:09 <Celestar> and below some level 15:06:13 <Celestar> so you have pizza slices :P 15:06:54 <peter1138> mmm pizza 15:06:57 <peter1138> is there a branch? ;) 15:07:08 <planetmaker> openttd-pizza :-P 15:07:19 <planetmaker> get a checkout and never starve? ;-) 15:08:08 * frosch123 pulls the pizza from pm 15:08:17 <planetmaker> :-( 15:08:25 * planetmaker hungry now 15:08:42 <planetmaker> if you'd clone it, we'd both have one now :-( 15:08:57 <frosch123> :) 15:09:02 <Celestar> pizza is missing a copy-constructor :P 15:09:42 <planetmaker> Celestar: it's called Joey's or so 15:09:53 <planetmaker> just mis-leadingly named 15:11:16 <Celestar> lol 15:16:56 <Celestar> erm 15:16:59 <Celestar> wtf. 15:17:06 <Celestar> my caching prototype seems to suck :P 15:18:19 <Celestar> weird. 15:18:23 <Celestar> cpu usage for GetTileSlope is down from 3.5% to 0.9%. 15:18:42 <Celestar> but cycles for RunTileLoop is up?? 15:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> serious cache misses? 15:19:41 <Celestar> I'm not dirtying the cache :P 15:19:45 <Celestar> assuming static map :P 15:19:59 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-213-49-88-158.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:20:25 <Yexo> Celestar: how did you implement it? just adding a byte to the Tile struct? 15:20:36 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-169-113.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 15:21:01 <Celestar> Yexo: first I added (unused) bytes to the struct, ran it. then I made use of the bytes and ran it again :P 15:21:22 <Celestar> no remove the error coming from the increase of the struct 15:22:33 <Celestar> is there any way to force-fast-forward by command line? 15:23:44 <Yexo> run openttd with -vnull:ticks=1000 15:23:54 <Yexo> that runs openttd without blitter for 1000 ticks in fast-forward 15:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i guess in the battle democracy vs. markets, the democracy finally caved... 15:23:57 <peter1138> did you add to Tile or TileExtended? 15:24:15 <peter1138> (or are you in the other code) 15:24:30 <Celestar> I'm in the Other Code 15:24:36 <peter1138> kk 15:25:07 <Celestar> I somehow think that the stupid powersave is friggen me up 15:25:11 *** Devroush|3 [~dennis@ip-83-134-169-122.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 15:25:15 <peter1138> heh 15:25:26 <Yexo> always disable powersave before doing performance tests 15:27:50 <Celestar> meh. 15:28:38 <Celestar> trying with a pure map :P 15:28:39 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-169-113.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:33:54 <Celestar> feels good to dig around the code again :D 15:35:09 <z-MaTRiX> hii 15:35:16 <z-MaTRiX> do you write core functions in assembly ? 15:35:33 <z-MaTRiX> or only C everything? 15:36:19 <Celestar> .... 15:36:27 <Celestar> is openttd portable z-MaTRiX ? 15:37:09 <z-MaTRiX> ah so its not universal and excluded? :( 15:39:54 <z-MaTRiX> well anyway they say gcc does well in asm ;/ 15:40:37 <z-MaTRiX> given openttd will take adventage of all 6 cores in new computers it might be even better 15:41:49 <planetmaker> z-MaTRiX: who says openttd should only compile using gcc? 15:42:09 <z-MaTRiX> ok i get it 15:42:21 <z-MaTRiX> so openttd will never support multicore then 15:42:41 <planetmaker> where's the relating between using asm and multi-core support? 15:42:55 <z-MaTRiX> but currently there is a 4GB limit in cpu speed that is not yet possible to break 15:43:08 <Celestar> ?! 15:43:11 <z-MaTRiX> was thinking about C and multicore 15:43:16 <z-MaTRiX> ah 15:43:16 <planetmaker> you notice that statement is totally non-sense? 15:43:20 <z-MaTRiX> 4GHz 15:43:22 <z-MaTRiX> na 15:43:23 <z-MaTRiX> ;>> 15:43:30 <planetmaker> and even then? 15:44:06 <z-MaTRiX> soon it may become a limiting factor if you continuously implement new functions 15:44:14 <z-MaTRiX> it will slow game down 15:44:39 <Celestar> CPUs get faster per clock cycle :P 15:45:53 <z-MaTRiX> where can i turn on AA in openttd? 15:46:26 <z-MaTRiX> (anti-aliasing display mode) 15:49:20 <Yexo> openttd only supports AA for fonts 15:49:28 <Yexo> and of course that excludes the default bitmap font 15:49:41 <Yexo> you need to change the config file for that 15:50:49 <z-MaTRiX> and may i implement AA display functions? 15:50:59 <z-MaTRiX> or its some SDL function? 15:51:33 <planetmaker> SDL is only used for 10% of the users 15:51:44 <z-MaTRiX> though you may argue with AA if you increase screen resolution ... 15:51:50 <z-MaTRiX> ok 15:52:06 <planetmaker> you may implement everything you take a fancy in 15:52:09 <z-MaTRiX> so every function is implemented in C like circle line polygon 15:52:17 <Yexo> ?? what do you mean with "implement AA display functions"? You want to do anti-aliasing over the sprites? 15:52:23 *** Xtri [~Xtri@static239-53.mimer.net] has joined #openttd 15:52:25 <Xtri> Hey 15:52:30 <planetmaker> hi Xtri 15:52:32 <Yexo> hello Xtri 15:52:39 <Xtri> Quick replies, I like that. 15:52:40 <Xtri> :D 15:52:51 <Xtri> Anyone that can help me out a bit with patching? 15:52:58 <Yexo> sure 15:53:06 <Yexo> did you already manage to compile openttd without any patches? 15:53:11 <Yexo> if not, start there 15:53:44 <Xtri> Oh and at the same time, are there any decent city builder patches out there that you know about? 15:53:49 <z-MaTRiX> Yexo<< well it depends on the actual function it does 15:54:06 <Yexo> the function that does what? 15:54:32 <Yexo> Xtri: unfortunately not 15:54:33 <planetmaker> Xtri: did you look at the forum? there's one or two threads about a patch in that direction... 15:54:42 <z-MaTRiX> Yexo<< how is RGBA handling done? 15:54:43 <planetmaker> at least concerning city cargo acceptance 15:54:49 <Xtri> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56955 15:54:50 <planetmaker> though they're far from finished 15:54:51 <Xtri> Found that one. 15:54:58 <Xtri> Hm. 15:55:04 <planetmaker> yes, I mean that. the only one really 15:55:14 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: by default openttd uses an 8bpp palette, and draws only in that palette 15:55:35 <Yexo> when using a 32bpp blitter openttd simply does the palette->RGBA conversion itself 15:55:39 <Xtri> Does it work decently though? 15:55:44 <planetmaker> dunno :-) 15:55:57 <Xtri> Well I guess I have to try it out :P 15:56:21 <Celestar> so. 15:56:26 <planetmaker> just don't patch stable openttd with it. It makes no sense to do so ;-) 15:56:40 <Celestar> in a built up game, the difference of 50% in the tile loop is not noticable :P 15:56:56 <z-MaTRiX> Yexo<< so only SDL blit function is used to display the rendered image? 15:57:10 <planetmaker> *sigh* 15:57:14 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: why don't you check the code yourself? 15:57:29 <Celestar> how many ticks does it take to run the tileloop through the whole map? 256? 15:57:34 <z-MaTRiX> you're the coder :) 15:57:37 *** BCMM [~ben@87.127.17.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:37 <planetmaker> iirc yes, Celestar 15:57:45 <z-MaTRiX> i was sure you know 15:58:35 <Yexo> you'd have to look in src/video/ I assume, I've never spend much time on that code 15:58:54 <planetmaker> blitting is iirc custom-defined. independent of the video backend 15:59:12 <z-MaTRiX> ok im asking these because i was thinking about adding anti-aliasing to openttd as a weekend project 15:59:30 <planetmaker> anti-aliasing for the sprites.... makes little sense 16:00:22 <z-MaTRiX> does the sprites have alpha channel? 16:00:40 <planetmaker> 99.9% not. As it's 8bpp 16:00:46 <planetmaker> and 192 unique colours 16:00:48 <z-MaTRiX> ;/ 16:01:07 <planetmaker> and 80% of the users probably use the 8bpp blitter 16:01:26 <z-MaTRiX> why is that? 16:01:45 <Yexo> because it's the default, it's the default blitter because it's the fastest one 16:02:06 <planetmaker> and it's the original colours of TTD 16:02:15 <z-MaTRiX> is it hard to change it to 32bit ? 16:02:20 <z-MaTRiX> or is it that slow? 16:02:25 <Celestar> just start the 32bit blitter? :P 16:02:35 <Yexo> ^^, just change one line in your config file 16:02:48 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: you really should start reading up. 16:02:53 <z-MaTRiX> yeah 16:03:02 <Yexo> you seem to have very little knowledge, and yet you want to "add AA" 16:03:19 <peter1138> by antialiasing, do you mean linear interpolation when scaling? 16:03:40 <Yexo> peter1138: I'm quite sure "scaling" was not yet mentioned 16:03:49 <peter1138> i know 16:03:55 <z-MaTRiX> havent been reading any openttd code yet so thisis why im asking 16:04:45 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 16:05:28 <z-MaTRiX> peter1138<< well yes, interpolation should be there, but i meant AA specifically for the edges 16:05:45 <peter1138> edges of what? 16:06:04 <z-MaTRiX> like you draw a circle you get that squared outline look 16:06:10 <peter1138> what circles? 16:06:23 <planetmaker> I wonder(ed) that, too 16:06:23 <z-MaTRiX> was example 16:06:41 <planetmaker> there are no vectorized contents 16:06:45 <planetmaker> except fonts. 16:06:46 <z-MaTRiX> it can be applied to a diagonal line too 16:06:47 <planetmaker> which have AA 16:06:56 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: which diagonal lines? 16:07:09 <z-MaTRiX> a diagonal track? 16:07:17 <Yexo> those are sprites, not lines 16:07:20 <planetmaker> you're aware it's a drawing? 16:07:24 <z-MaTRiX> but it has diagonal lines 16:07:28 <planetmaker> pixel by pixel? 16:07:35 <planetmaker> it has no lines 16:07:43 <planetmaker> it's pixel art 16:07:56 <peter1138> there are diagonal lines 16:08:00 <peter1138> in the graphs 16:08:00 <Yexo> I know 16:08:03 <planetmaker> :-) 16:08:05 <peter1138> but that's it :) 16:08:06 <Celestar> where? :P 16:08:07 <Yexo> and the bounding boxes 16:08:13 <Celestar> rofl 16:08:15 <planetmaker> bounding boxes? 16:08:24 <Yexo> what you see when you press ctrl+b 16:08:27 <planetmaker> oh 16:08:28 <planetmaker> yes 16:08:44 <peter1138> hehe :) 16:08:50 <Celestar> anyway. 16:08:52 <Celestar> I gotta run 16:08:55 <Celestar> cya tomorrow 16:09:13 <planetmaker> bye, Celestar 16:09:16 <Celestar> \o 16:09:18 *** Celestar [~dax@82.113.99.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:14:48 <z-MaTRiX> [170258] Yexo you seem to have very little knowledge, and yet you want to "add AA" - only knowledge about openttd :) 16:15:00 <Yexo> of course 16:15:07 <Yexo> I meant no insult there 16:15:37 <z-MaTRiX> but i remember i have seen squared edges in openttd, this is why i was asking 16:15:51 <z-MaTRiX> right now starting it to see again 16:28:28 <z-MaTRiX> i believe the tracks rotation is incorrectly rendered 16:28:35 <z-MaTRiX> ;/ 16:29:29 <z-MaTRiX> but to rotate a track correctly this way we'd need a heightmap too ofcourse 16:32:09 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Wychodzi] 16:32:27 <z-MaTRiX> ahm i see 16:32:30 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 16:32:51 <z-MaTRiX> is there a function that rotates sprites? or they are only drawn as-is ? 16:35:54 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 16:38:18 <peter1138> rotate sprites? what? 16:39:16 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.25.206.13] has joined #openttd 16:39:56 <z-MaTRiX> was just asking if any sprites/images are rotated out of original state after loading 16:40:51 <glx> why rotate things ? 16:41:46 <__ln__> http://apple.slashdot.org/story/11/11/03/1532203/apple-to-require-sandboxing-for-mac-app-store-apps 16:41:57 <z-MaTRiX> so in theory i believe if the sprites are ocr-traced prior-to loading, then the graphic edges are blended correctly using alpha channel there should be no squared curves right? 16:42:53 <peter1138> erm 16:42:57 <peter1138> ocr-traced? 16:43:00 <peter1138> what are you talking about? 16:43:27 <z-MaTRiX> the aliased curves in the sprites 16:44:18 <z-MaTRiX> that is due to vectorgraphic rasterization error/missing anti-alias 16:44:37 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 16:44:48 <peter1138> what vector graphics? 16:45:01 <peter1138> the sprites are hand drawn 16:45:40 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.206.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:46:00 <z-MaTRiX> well switch your openttd to 640x480 then zoom in a station for example 16:46:33 <z-MaTRiX> you'll see pixelated 'curves' going over the station clearly 16:48:01 <glx> because they are pixels 16:48:14 <z-MaTRiX> yes 16:48:28 <peter1138> that's how the sprite is drawn 16:48:30 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:48:30 <z-MaTRiX> ok its hand drawn 16:48:47 <z-MaTRiX> but not drawn at a higher resolution then downsampled? 16:48:50 <peter1138> no 16:49:07 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 16:49:20 <glx> some may draw them that way but it's very rare 16:50:17 <z-MaTRiX> so its already drawn pixel-by-pixel, but if you convert a bitmap to vectorgraphics, then downsample back with anti-alias it will be smoother 16:50:28 <peter1138> lol 16:50:49 <peter1138> no, graphics don't work like that 16:51:20 <z-MaTRiX> yes i see this dont have to be done all the time, only applied once to the sprites 16:53:29 <z-MaTRiX> i remember i have a cool image compression program somewhere from before 2000 that does convert a bitmap to fractals, then if i set >95% quality, it started to trace down the pixels of the bitmap (at about the same size as jpg) 16:53:46 <peter1138> if you convert it to vector, you'll have a vector representation of a bitmap 16:54:14 <z-MaTRiX> and after converting back the bmp file stored in fractal-converted format to a larger resolution bitmap, it was much better 16:54:19 <peter1138> you won't magically get the extra information required to "add AA" 16:55:31 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: but OpenTTD currently never scales bitmaps to larger resolutions 16:55:34 <Yexo> so again, what's the point? 16:56:03 <z-MaTRiX> well you have 2 black pixels next to each others [(0,0),(1,1)] you can trace that as vector, give it width=1, and you can even upsample-interpolate it to any resolution 16:56:52 <z-MaTRiX> Yexo<< ok it does not, but if you save the vectorgraphics at same resolution as the origian bitmap you can get anti-aliased bitmap 16:57:11 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: by all means go ahead and show us some results 16:57:25 <Yexo> you're the one claiming it looks better, please prove all us non-believers wrong 16:57:50 <z-MaTRiX> ok :) 16:57:53 <Yexo> simply decode a newgrf, improve the sprites and encode it again 16:58:15 <z-MaTRiX> sounds like a good project 17:01:47 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 17:01:49 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 17:09:57 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-31-22.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 17:21:58 *** Borgso [~nirox@94-246-44.52.3p.ntebredband.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:31:25 *** Borgso [~nirox@94-246-44.52.3p.ntebredband.no] has joined #openttd 17:32:12 *** const86 [~const@tethys.mimas.ru] has joined #openttd 17:32:31 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:44:15 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.206.13] has joined #openttd 17:51:10 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.25.206.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:56:44 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:56:47 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 18:00:43 <__ln__> they're not voting after all 18:01:36 * Alberth votes against not voting 18:05:55 *** devilsadvocate_ [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has joined #openttd 18:08:12 *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:08:32 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 18:11:48 <Xtri> Why don't OpenTTD make a city builder? 18:11:57 <Xtri> Seems like it's the most popular gamemode. 18:13:33 <Yexo> because nobody has been interested enough to make it? 18:15:42 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:20:21 *** TheMask96 [~martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:23:32 <Belugas> not totally true, Yexo. Ther is a patch on forums, and not on peter1138's HDs :) 18:24:21 <Yexo> true, I forgot about that patch 18:24:34 <Belugas> and Xtri, may I question that "most popular gamemode" assertion? If it was that popular for TTD world, someone would have done it EONS ago 18:24:48 <Alberth> evenink Belugas 18:24:56 <Belugas> I WANT IT! IT'S THUS EXTREMELY POPULAR... grrrr 18:25:06 <Belugas> Hi My Lord! 18:25:17 <Yexo> Xtri: I'm quite sure the most popular gamemode is playing the last stable in singleplayer modus 18:25:55 <Xtri> Belugas what patch? 18:26:21 <Belugas> the one that lets you put houses where you want to 18:27:01 <Alberth> no it is the other way around: I play it all the time, my friends play it too, it must be popular :) 18:27:20 <Xtri> >_< 18:28:12 <Belugas> lol 18:28:15 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:28:33 <Belugas> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=48851 18:28:35 <Belugas> that one... 18:33:33 <V453000> :D 18:35:30 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:53 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 18:36:23 <Alberth> don't forget the 'fund city' in newer openttds :) 18:37:30 <frosch123> we should rename this channel to #openttd.troll 18:37:33 <frosch123> :p 18:39:17 <Belugas> i should also start working on an Undo knob.. 18:40:08 <frosch123> yeah, that one is esp. useful when trading shares 18:40:34 <Alberth> what about a shouty "NO!!" on it ? 18:41:07 <Alberth> a bright yellow button :p 18:42:12 <Alberth> frosch123: or #openttd.offtopic 18:42:28 <frosch123> we already have that channel 18:42:32 <frosch123> it is called #tycoon 18:42:57 <frosch123> if you want to talk about forum games, that is the channel to go :p 18:43:30 * Alberth wanted to know about those, but was afraid to ask here :) 18:44:52 <Alberth> ooh, simutrans has network support too 19:00:04 <Qantourisc> Why can't i build some airports ? 19:00:43 *** Xtri [~Xtri@static239-53.mimer.net] has quit [] 19:00:56 <Terkhen> my guess is that they still have not been invented in your game 19:01:04 <Yexo> because you're in the wrong year, see http://wiki.openttd.org/Airports 19:01:05 <Terkhen> without more info... no clue :) 19:03:17 <Qantourisc> aaa alllow airports 19:03:31 <Qantourisc> I wanted to build a small one :) 19:06:12 <Yexo> eanble the setting "airports never expire" 19:11:03 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-d9bf0c8f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 19:15:28 <peter1138> what what 19:15:43 <peter1138> hmm, big bang theory is crap isn't it? 19:20:59 <Elukka> the show or the theory :D 19:22:44 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:22:45 <__ln__> why did they name an important theory after a tv show?! 19:23:31 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-24-206.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:23:38 <andythenorth> hello 19:27:39 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-21.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 19:27:46 <peter1138> heh, the tv show :p 19:29:41 <Alberth> hi andy 19:30:35 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-059-095.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 19:32:56 <andythenorth> did I miss cb15 / cb36 being fixed? :o 19:33:32 <andythenorth> probly not :P 19:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the suggestion was to use cb15 with var47 19:36:01 <z-MaTRiX> why does openttd blogs ALSA lib pcm.c:7234:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occured 19:37:15 <peter1138> blogs? 19:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the "ww" part: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Vehicles#Vehicle_cargo_info_.2847.29 19:37:35 <__ln__> z-MaTRiX: because someone has misspelled 'occurred' 19:38:06 <__ln__> yet i didn't know openttd has a blog of its own. 19:38:08 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: that usually happens when when the CPU is clogged so the alsa buffer is not refilled in time 19:38:49 *** Elukka [~Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 19:38:50 <z-MaTRiX> :) 19:38:53 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so do some maths in a varact2? 19:39:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes 19:39:02 <andythenorth> has anyone got pseudo code I can copy 19:39:04 <z-MaTRiX> ran it in a terminal, and it is probably stderr of openttd 19:39:10 <peter1138> you know what 'blog' means, right? 19:39:12 <andythenorth> I can do the varacts, I just can't be bothered to work out the spec 19:39:29 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< oh i see 19:39:53 <z-MaTRiX> it was writing to swap at initialization, maybe thats the reason 19:40:11 <peter1138> i think it's an interaction between sdl, alsa and pulseaudio 19:40:17 <peter1138> i never bothered investigating 19:40:20 <Belugas> they all are drooling over that show here. They... mean...not me... Just by listening on what they say, i don't want to even get nearby watching a minute of it 19:40:34 <Belugas> big bang theory, that is... 19:40:37 <peter1138> yeah 19:40:44 <peter1138> utter shite 19:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well the formula is <capacity in tons>*16/((var47>>8)&0xFF) 19:41:05 <TrueBrain> Belugas: but but but ... booobbbiiieeessss..... *drewl* 19:41:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: where you'd need a varaction2 for each capacity 19:41:18 <andythenorth> oh :P 19:41:22 <andythenorth> CPP templates ftw 19:41:23 <andythenorth> ? 19:41:24 <__ln__> z-MaTRiX: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog 19:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno, i use a python script for that :p 19:41:42 <andythenorth> hmm 19:41:46 <andythenorth> it sounds interesting 19:41:53 <andythenorth> the current solution entirely works 19:42:00 <andythenorth> but that's not the point :P 19:42:19 <Belugas> TrueBrain: youwant boobs, let me introduce you to the OTHER You something wb site ;) 19:42:34 <Belugas> web 19:42:48 <peter1138> heh 19:43:05 <peter1138> i watched a bit of it. it's just cringey jokes 19:43:10 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 19:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem with CPP is that it cannot do the *16 calculation, so you'd have to do that by hand 19:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt that grfcodec or nforenum would optimize that away 19:45:21 <andythenorth> I could sort that out with defines 19:45:25 <andythenorth> or so 19:45:57 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-5d820660.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 19:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause> #define CAPACITY 15 19:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> #define CAPACITY16 250 19:47:13 <Belugas> that's what I fugured out listening to THEM 19:47:22 <Belugas> crazy colleagues... 19:47:54 <Belugas> last show like that i watch was "3's a crowd" 19:48:00 <Belugas> way way way ywa back then 19:49:54 <TrueBrain> damn, you are old 19:52:17 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-d9bf0c8f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:52:18 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with TBBT? 19:52:32 <TrueBrain> *drewl* Penny ... 19:52:47 <Eddi|zuHause> bernadette is crazy :p 19:56:01 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:15 <peter1138> it's not funny 20:05:28 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.206.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06:21 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 20:06:21 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.206.13] has joined #openttd 20:19:46 <andythenorth> biab 20:19:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 20:27:40 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-21.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:43:07 <Belugas> [15:50] <TrueBrain> damn, you are old <-- DUH!!! 20:43:34 <Belugas> i'm also going home 20:43:45 <Belugas> MAMA i'M COMING HOME 20:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> good night then :) 20:44:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:45:14 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 20:51:13 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 20:52:45 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.30.129.31] has joined #openttd 20:55:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 20:56:11 *** JVassie [~James@2.25.206.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:01:17 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:01:25 *** JVassie [~James@2.30.129.31] has joined #openttd 21:06:10 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:07:42 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.30.129.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:10:43 *** Celestar [~dax@82.113.121.226] has joined #openttd 21:11:00 <Celestar> ffs. 21:11:10 <Celestar> latest ubuntu upgrade fscks up the network manager. 21:13:26 <MNIM> OS upgrade, or package upgrade? 21:14:45 *** Celestar_ [~dax@mnch-4d0dbb52.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 21:14:55 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:15:03 <Celestar_> hm. 21:15:07 <Celestar_> works better. 21:15:21 *** Celestar is now known as Guest15727 21:15:22 *** Celestar_ is now known as celestar 21:15:26 *** celestar is now known as Celestar 21:15:28 <Celestar> works now :P 21:15:38 <Celestar> removing all stored networks seemed to have helped 21:15:49 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.30.129.31] has joined #openttd 21:16:02 *** blotek [~blotek@adfu213.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 21:20:57 *** Guest15727 [~dax@82.113.121.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:21:21 <Celestar> hm.. difficult to get the power consumption below 12W 21:22:40 *** JVassie [~James@2.30.129.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:23:43 <Celestar> hm. 21:23:44 <Celestar> brb :P 21:23:45 *** Celestar [~dax@mnch-4d0dbb52.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:25:12 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.30.129.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:25:58 <Terkhen> good night 21:29:45 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has joined #openttd 21:39:50 * andythenorth begins the work to fix HEQS lighting 21:41:00 <andythenorth> hmm 21:41:12 <andythenorth> why did I start out painting pixels correctly? 21:41:20 <andythenorth> the first sprites I drew are lit correctly 21:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> something looks odd with the lighting in CETS, but i can't put my finger on it 21:43:06 <andythenorth> it's weird 21:43:29 <andythenorth> I changed style not on any evidence, but because Purno's tutorial said I was wrong 21:44:01 <andythenorth> why do we accept authority instead of evidence? 21:46:24 <peter1138> hmm? 21:47:10 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-018-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 21:48:54 <andythenorth> first I drew correctly. Then I read the tutorial and started drawing incorrectly. Then I looked at TTD pixels, and had to fix a lot of stuff :P 21:49:02 <peter1138> hmm 21:49:11 <peter1138> so a dodgy tutorial 21:49:33 <peter1138> hmm 21:49:40 <peter1138> why is it not possible to change music set in-game? 21:50:08 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 21:51:28 *** const86 [~const@tethys.mimas.ru] has quit [Quit: I'll be back] 21:52:16 <andythenorth> because you haven't coded that yet? 21:52:18 <andythenorth> :P 21:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know is there's an english expression for that, but: "Warum ist die Banane krumm?" - "Weil niemand durch den Urwald zog, und die Banane grade bog!" 21:53:01 <peter1138> meh 21:53:09 <peter1138> i don't have the music on anyway 21:53:24 <peter1138> i have uncool real music playing instead ;p 21:53:57 <peter1138> gah, TerraGenesis sucks for non-temperate 21:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> what do english people say when someone (a child usually) asks a dumb question? 21:54:07 <peter1138> derp! 21:55:37 <peter1138> hmm 21:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: something in the style of above's phrase? (roughly: "why is the banana bent? - because nobody went to the jungle to unbend it!" 21:55:52 <peter1138> i don't think i've properly played ottd since switching from CRT to LCD 21:56:15 <peter1138> i used to play fullscreen at 800x600 21:56:26 <peter1138> which doesn't work on LCDs, heh 21:56:30 <peter1138> well it does, but not nicely 21:56:49 <andythenorth> peter1138: we once explored why TerraGenesis sucks so much 21:57:02 <andythenorth> you found it's not even doing what it claims to iirc 21:57:16 <peter1138> did i? 21:57:17 <peter1138> hmm 21:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> TGP has a number of shortcomings 21:57:29 <andythenorth> there are lies in it somewhere 21:57:46 <andythenorth> I probably even have the transcript.....somewhere :P 21:57:52 <andythenorth> most things are somewhere 21:57:53 <peter1138> i know i started a rewrite 21:57:55 <peter1138> but stopped 21:57:59 <peter1138> cos... just cos 21:58:13 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: probably around the time when you patched in the height curves 21:58:23 <peter1138> yeah 21:58:30 <andythenorth> I made a hack that puts in craters that look like donuts 21:58:45 <andythenorth> I also made a thing that put steps into mountains, for the purposes of building railroad tracks along 21:58:53 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there's a weird rounding issue 21:59:04 <andythenorth> I have no idea how I did either of those, I just changed numbers until fun happened 21:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that prevents the highest level from being generated 21:59:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so mountains get more flat than they need to be 21:59:27 <andythenorth> is that why it always comes out with stupid flat plateaus in arctic? 21:59:32 <andythenorth> they're so dumb 21:59:55 <Eddi|zuHause> we need a "tectonics" map generator 22:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> perlin maps are too "regular" 22:00:16 <peter1138> hmm, i implemented a fault-line generator 22:00:20 <peter1138> i remember that 22:00:27 <peter1138> i wonder where all that went... 22:00:30 <andythenorth> then you got distracted trying to fly missiles over a minecraft map 22:00:37 <andythenorth> or something 22:00:39 <peter1138> hah 22:00:42 <peter1138> yes 22:00:56 <peter1138> and A* in 3D 22:02:12 <Yexo> michi_cc: I just cloned newmap.git and tried to run it. It asserts as soon as I try to build a tunnel 22:02:20 <Yexo> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/699/ 22:02:54 <peter1138> hmm, odd, none of my patches mention "perlin" or "noise" :S 22:03:30 <andythenorth> the map doesn't need to be realistic, it needs to add 'interesting features' 22:03:52 <andythenorth> and have fewer options, all of which are like twiddling knobs and levers on a black box 22:03:57 <michi_cc> Yexo: That repo is missing a few fixes from my local repo, maybe it's is already solved. I'll check when I return to it. 22:04:01 <peter1138> yeah 22:04:20 <andythenorth> now we have rivers also ... 22:04:46 <andythenorth> can't we just run an erosion simulator? 22:05:34 <andythenorth> assign rock hardness 1-8 in bands of the map, drop river sources, run for 1024 cycles, see what happened 22:05:47 <andythenorth> start the whole thing at height 16 22:06:00 <peter1138> sounds cool. code it? 22:06:04 <andythenorth> he :) 22:06:17 <andythenorth> there's no newgrf API for it :P 22:06:20 <peter1138> hmm, persistent storage array for vehicles. got a patch for that... 22:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that'll result in "plateau and canyon" maps 22:06:42 <andythenorth> vehicles should not persistently store 22:06:42 <andythenorth> :P 22:06:48 <andythenorth> it's a car crash waiting to happen 22:06:55 <andythenorth> they should carry other vehicles though 22:07:01 <andythenorth> notably ferries should do this 22:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i think it's a bad idea, expecially when mixing newgrfs 22:08:07 <andythenorth> vehicles-in-vehicles 22:08:42 <supermop> i just got a mac book air at work 22:08:43 <peter1138> lol 22:08:51 <peter1138> and a patch to make windows be windows in gtk 22:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we'll need that :p 22:10:01 <peter1138> must've been really bored one day for that one :) 22:10:34 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:10:48 <peter1138> hmm 22:10:49 <andythenorth> uh oh 22:10:55 <peter1138> found a source tree with perlin stuff in it 22:11:01 * andythenorth just solved pipelines, actually properly 22:11:18 <andythenorth> it only works for AIs, or really dedicated players 22:11:26 <peter1138> the big float array for storing the heightmap didn't help 22:11:27 <supermop> hows that then? 22:11:32 <andythenorth> pipelines? 22:11:53 <andythenorth> road vehicle, 1l capacity, run cost £small, purchase cost £0 22:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you mean like rondje? buy-trave-sell? 22:12:08 <andythenorth> AI builds a vehicle for each 1l waiting at station, travels, sells 22:12:14 <andythenorth> yes 22:12:25 <andythenorth> this is a good idea 22:12:30 <andythenorth> if I say so myself 22:12:36 <peter1138> ah, my code for rivers... 22:12:39 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:12:53 <andythenorth> rivers... 22:12:59 <andythenorth> did I mention rivers recently? 22:13:12 <peter1138> rivers are cool 22:13:30 <andythenorth> cooler in winter than summer I reckon 22:13:35 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: you mean when i requested halftile rivers? 22:13:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am *not* drawing those 22:13:51 <andythenorth> except I might 22:13:54 <peter1138> no 22:13:56 <andythenorth> because it would look better 22:14:01 <peter1138> my code for river generation 22:14:04 <peter1138> which didn't work 22:14:09 <supermop> non-90 degree rivers would be sweet 22:14:20 <andythenorth> rivers that were useful would be better 22:14:35 <peter1138> they are 22:14:36 <andythenorth> it's fine if you want to play 'mississipi' and have 512 flat tiles 22:14:37 <peter1138> shut up 22:14:48 <Rubidium> what? Are they too bendy? 22:14:56 <andythenorth> rivers are fine 22:15:01 <andythenorth> 3 tile locks are what sucks 22:15:07 <andythenorth> locks should be 2 tiles 22:15:10 * andythenorth is broken record 22:15:52 <andythenorth> flat docks ftw 22:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes... who wanted to implement those? 22:16:27 <andythenorth> $someone iirc 22:16:43 * andythenorth is busy redrawing 50% of HEQS :P 22:16:48 <peter1138> is it me 22:17:07 <Eddi|zuHause> this lazy bastard! 22:17:22 <Eddi|zuHause> this someone guy never delivers anything 22:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> why do we let him develop anything anymore? 22:17:43 <peter1138> or is the palette animation plane not moved (or otherwise updated properly) when you scroll? 22:17:47 <peter1138> (in 32bpp-anim) 22:17:53 <andythenorth> revoke his commit rights 22:19:25 <peter1138> hmm, apparnetly it's moved, so... hmm 22:20:26 <peter1138> i just get glitches in the sea when i scroll 22:25:00 * andythenorth -> bed 22:25:22 <peter1138> hmm, vast oceans 22:25:49 <andythenorth> sounds awesome 22:25:53 <andythenorth> put some boats on them 22:26:22 <peter1138> hmm, i just realised my conceptual problem... 22:26:44 <peter1138> okay, i've decided, we need 2 heightmaps 22:27:00 <peter1138> they're multiplied together 22:27:13 <peter1138> bingo: landscape variety 22:27:29 <peter1138> i should rewrite this code though, heh 22:27:46 <Eddi|zuHause> how does that add variety? 22:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> multiplying two perlin heightmaps sounds like resulting in just another perlin heightmap 22:28:37 <peter1138> with the right parameters, you get areas of ocean, areas of flat and areas of mountains 22:29:13 <peter1138> when making a perlin map, noise is added to the noise that's already there 22:29:46 <peter1138> the key is to use multiply the maps rather than adding them 22:29:55 <peter1138> -use 22:30:50 <andythenorth> are perlin values in the range 0-1 22:30:51 <andythenorth> ? 22:30:53 <peter1138> no 22:31:00 <andythenorth> 0-? 22:31:11 <peter1138> they have to be normalized 22:32:56 <andythenorth> hmm 22:33:07 * andythenorth tries to recall the hacks that made canyons 22:33:12 <andythenorth> canyons are good 22:33:28 <andythenorth> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=379221 22:33:50 <peter1138> well yeah 22:34:20 <peter1138> erosion and tectonics 22:34:39 <andythenorth> or multiply 2 perlins... 22:35:08 <peter1138> not as convincing 22:35:29 <andythenorth> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=379895&nseq=0 22:36:41 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6B4F4.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 22:36:42 <peter1138> erosion on a heightmap 22:37:15 <andythenorth> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=286251&nseq=6 22:37:20 <z-MaTRiX> someone bored? :) 22:37:41 <z-MaTRiX> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factorial 22:38:22 <z-MaTRiX> i say every negative integer has factorial of 0 22:39:05 <andythenorth> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=375056&nseq=75 22:39:24 * andythenorth stops posting random canyon pictures 22:39:42 <z-MaTRiX> andythenorth<< mirror them <; 22:39:57 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: did you actually read that wiki page? It has a paragraph titled "Non-extendability to negative integers" 22:40:01 <z-MaTRiX> yes 22:40:02 <z-MaTRiX> :) 22:40:29 <z-MaTRiX> and you can visualize it on the graph they posted 22:40:42 <z-MaTRiX> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Generalized_factorial_function.svg/325px-Generalized_factorial_function.svg.png 22:41:46 <andythenorth> good night 22:41:48 <z-MaTRiX> well its kindof interesting though because +-infinity is connected with that vertical line i just described... 22:41:49 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:42:14 <z-MaTRiX> but its still zero at -integers 22:43:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6BCBA.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:47:17 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-059-095.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 22:48:23 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A1B8E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:48:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23084 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: get rid of a redundant variable 22:54:17 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AD67.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:54:25 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 22:58:59 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:16 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 23:01:41 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23085 /trunk/src/table/settings.ini: -Fix (r23084): SLE_UINT8 might have been the old type, it's not the same as the length of the variable 23:10:09 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:14:30 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 23:15:49 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:49 *** Devroush|3 [~dennis@ip-83-134-169-122.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [] 23:25:29 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-5d820660.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 23:36:08 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 23:50:32 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 23:56:31 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]