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00:02:02 <V453000> hm, why could I be getting bananas error "A pack can contain only one license file." with this file? :o 00:02:03 <V453000> A pack can contain only one license file. 00:02:05 <V453000> zz 00:02:12 <V453000> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/nuts022.zip 00:02:16 <V453000> there is just one license file 00:02:20 <V453000> just like in all other previous versions 00:02:26 <V453000> does anyone know what to do with that please? 00:06:17 * FLHerne finds a bug in KATE 00:06:37 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.67.7] has joined #openttd 00:06:43 <FLHerne> It segfaults when deleting hidden (codefolded) lines :-( 00:12:16 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-109-247.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:26:45 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 00:49:14 *** roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.132.218] has joined #openttd 00:50:17 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 00:53:07 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [] 00:53:26 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 01:14:58 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:19:45 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 01:30:21 *** cmircea_ [~cmircea@86.123.42.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:33:32 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:30 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:45:39 *** Bolsiq [~bxts@77-253-128-102.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [] 01:58:15 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 01:59:50 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-112.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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06:32:32 <planetmaker> moin all :-) 06:36:42 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.13.128] has joined #openttd 06:47:08 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-244-89.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 07:26:43 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd 07:26:47 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:27:13 <Alberth> moin 07:28:03 <Terkhen> good morning 07:28:49 <LordAro> mornings 07:37:15 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 07:37:44 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has joined #openttd 07:38:36 <Alberth> lo andy 07:45:20 <planetmaker> moin Alberth, LordAro 07:45:27 <Alberth> moin pm 07:45:59 <LordAro> hi pm, andy 07:47:17 <andythenorth> bonjour 07:49:17 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 07:50:12 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@94.13.8.182] has joined #openttd 07:53:42 <planetmaker> salut andythenorth 08:05:26 * andythenorth ponders FISH 08:08:27 * Alberth ponders cargo monitoring 08:08:46 <andythenorth> ? 08:08:51 <andythenorth> sounds interesting 08:11:31 <Alberth> monitoring of cargo pickup & delivery by a company for game scripts :) 08:11:59 <andythenorth> sounds good 08:12:14 <andythenorth> how fine grained (i.e. where would you monitor?) 08:12:27 <andythenorth> per station? per accepting / producing tile? 08:12:38 <Alberth> same as subsidies basically 08:13:53 *** roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.132.218] has joined #openttd 08:14:31 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has joined #openttd 08:14:39 <Wolf01> hello o/ 08:14:54 <Alberth> in particular pax is very hard to get to deliver to the 'right' place 08:14:59 <Alberth> hello Wolf01 08:17:09 <andythenorth> Alberth: you need a cargo routing algorithm :) 08:17:12 <andythenorth> NewDispatcher 08:17:37 <Alberth> nope, I just monitor where you bring it :) 08:18:00 * andythenorth watches Alberth duck the routing idea :P 08:18:07 <andythenorth> maybe someone else would do it 08:18:59 <Alberth> it's an intriguing problem, and I do want to have a go at it some day, but not in the near future 08:19:25 <Alberth> I feel cargo sources and destinations is not the right approach 08:19:38 <Alberth> the trouble is now, what is? :) 08:21:57 <Alberth> The steps in-between don't care where cargo comes from or goes to, ie they are generic transport services. Yet we push a source/target onto them, which makes the problem explode, as there are many sources/target combinations 08:22:40 <Alberth> Ie I want flow without the combinatorial explosion in cpu time 08:24:16 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 08:26:27 *** kkimlabs__ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 08:26:35 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:31:51 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-244-89.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:32:28 *** cmircea_ [~cmircea@86.123.42.12] has joined #openttd 08:38:04 <andythenorth> Alberth: 'flow' is also what I seek 08:38:47 <andythenorth> my ideas for approximating 'downhill' are based on looking only at next step 08:38:57 <andythenorth> hmm 08:39:08 <andythenorth> if I knew more about vector maths, it could be done that way 08:39:33 <andythenorth> cargo should take any available vector that is 'towards' the destination 08:39:39 * andythenorth goes back to ships 08:39:50 <andythenorth> water in rivers doesn't need to know where it's going 08:39:55 <andythenorth> it just goes down gradient 08:40:07 <andythenorth> voltage doesn't know where it's 'going' 08:40:17 <andythenorth> it just goes down the difference gradient 08:41:00 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 08:41:01 <telanus> helllo 08:41:20 <telanus> quick question: what is a viewport? 08:41:21 <Zuu> hello 08:41:42 <telanus> busy translating and not sure what is meant 08:42:00 <Zuu> there are two types of them. There is the one at the back of your screen that show the landscape 08:42:11 <Zuu> There is also the extra viewports that open up in a window 08:43:47 <telanus> might be the landskape one. translating this: The maximum zoom-in level for viewports ........... 08:47:28 <Alberth> all viewports display part of the landscape :) 08:50:15 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC67908.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:53:28 <Alberth> andy, local checking only has no idea of where it is going. 08:53:49 <Alberth> which makes it miss "destinations" :) 08:57:29 <andythenorth> it's on a specific 'gradient' 08:57:43 <andythenorth> the gradient is towards a specific destination 08:58:22 <andythenorth> still requires a path-solving routine to run at [some frequency] to cache the gradient 08:58:30 <Alberth> flow is destination specific ? that explodes, doesn't it? 08:58:34 <andythenorth> dunno 08:58:38 <andythenorth> vehicles seem to route ok 08:58:41 <andythenorth> without exploding 08:59:00 <Alberth> until you hit the CPU ceiling :) 08:59:06 <andythenorth> you end up with a gradient for every cargo-destination pair 08:59:12 <Alberth> and there are a lot more cargo packets :) 08:59:14 <andythenorth> but you can discard the source 08:59:40 <andythenorth> hmm 08:59:51 <andythenorth> migrating ship stats accurately to nml is tedious :P 09:00:15 <Alberth> why? 09:00:27 <Alberth> ie what is nml missing? 09:02:27 <andythenorth> an assistant for me 09:02:51 <andythenorth> I have three sources as well: tracking table, nfo, and I have to check the old grf in game for some stats 09:03:07 <andythenorth> new nml package: nml.assistant 09:10:31 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host81-148-244-89.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 09:14:47 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]] 09:15:05 <andythenorth> hmm 09:15:35 <andythenorth> not being able to set costs directly 09:15:42 <andythenorth> needs some thought 09:16:29 <andythenorth> I need to know the most expensive ship in the set, so I can find the scale for 0-255 cost factor :P 09:16:38 <andythenorth> but the most expensive ship might not be added yet :P 09:17:30 <Alberth> sounds like a sucky design to me :p 09:19:02 <andythenorth> kind of necessary 09:19:15 <andythenorth> so you can have variable base costs I guess 09:20:59 * Alberth very much believes computers are much better in administrative tasks 09:22:04 <andythenorth> +1 09:22:34 <andythenorth> btw, the nml missing-string patch was essential :) 09:22:41 <andythenorth> using the errors a lot right now 09:23:21 <Alberth> it is fixed afaik :) 09:23:37 <andythenorth> yes 09:23:45 <andythenorth> that's what I meant ;) 09:24:40 <Alberth> any tool not given sane feedback to its users does not deserve to be used imho 09:24:44 <Alberth> *giving 09:25:27 <Alberth> unfortunately, many users accept it without even reporting it as bug 09:26:00 *** kkimlabs__ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:33:19 <Wolf01> http://englishrussia.com/2012/07/11/locomotive-vs-car/ they might need to replace just a couple of pieces... 09:34:28 <Alberth> the gravel won :) 09:35:17 <NGC3982> too bad it hit the trailer, and not the truck. 09:35:22 <andythenorth> in soviet russia... 09:35:39 <NGC3982> did the driver survive? 09:36:24 <NGC3982> .."He probably escape to engine section - normal procedure in danger." 09:41:21 * andythenorth wonders what nml is doing with ship running costs 09:41:44 <andythenorth> I get an exciting 2/yr no matter which values I try for the action 0 prop 09:42:17 <andythenorth> I haven't adjusted any base cost yet 09:45:39 <andythenorth> local bug I think 09:52:06 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 10:09:58 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has joined #openttd 10:16:07 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-122-165.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 10:46:20 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Hugs to all] 10:46:34 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 10:47:04 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 10:49:18 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:02:45 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 11:21:24 <andythenorth> hmm 11:21:31 <andythenorth> so my FISH buy menu is pretty crappy 11:21:56 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:22:42 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3125/FISH_buy_menu.png 11:23:01 <andythenorth> fixing it is a simple matter of setting x, y values in the config file (plain text) 11:23:12 <andythenorth> want to help? 11:24:06 *** peter1138 [~petern@217.64.121.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:26:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> Andy i didtn ahve that issue before, what did you change lol 11:30:05 <andythenorth> recoded to nml 11:30:15 <andythenorth> removed use of setx which is unofficially deprecated 11:30:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> aha 11:30:36 <andythenorth> and should be deprecated, but cowardice prevents that :P 11:32:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> cant you use the old x-y offsets though? 11:32:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka copy-paste into new format 11:33:52 <andythenorth> no, the space in the menu is narrower 11:33:52 <planetmaker> lol :-) andythenorth 11:34:29 <andythenorth> setx is not allowed to be implemented in nml, because it's unwanted, despite being in spec 11:34:34 <planetmaker> The cut-away-the-cobs attitude sometimes is really refreshing :-) 11:34:41 <andythenorth> but nobody wants to change spec because newgrf authors will whine 11:34:54 <andythenorth> so we have the odd situation where nml *refuses* to support the newgrf spec 11:35:02 <planetmaker> :-) yup 11:35:23 <planetmaker> it's by far not the only point where NML does not support every contingency 11:35:34 <planetmaker> For the same or similar reasons 11:35:51 <andythenorth> meh 11:36:04 <planetmaker> But maybe, it should be announced that a thing like XYZ will be deprecated in the upcoming major release or so 11:36:39 <planetmaker> Like "you got 9 months to fix it" 11:36:57 <andythenorth> just knock it out of next newgrf spec major version? 11:37:04 <andythenorth> what's next? v9? 11:37:06 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:37:09 * andythenorth -> food 11:38:35 <planetmaker> for a v9 it needs imho more changes. Like grf v8 also accumulated. Actually over years 11:46:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the buy menu needs a configurable width by misc parameter, similar to the depot offset. 11:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the maximum over all GRFs is taken 11:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (per vehicle type) 11:54:58 <NGC3982> how is current data saved in the game, as i progresses? for instance, in case one would wish to parse current economy statistics to a third party software. 11:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the savegame format is a compressed RIFF format, each chunk has a handler in src/saveload/*.cpp 11:58:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the explicit format of the data differs from chunk to chunk 11:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: if you don't want to mess with the compression, you can write in your .cfg that you want to make uncompressed savegames 12:08:19 <planetmaker> and: the actual format of each chunk may change between revs without notice. 12:09:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think the buy menu sprite should be fixed to current size 12:09:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i disagree. 12:09:25 <andythenorth> when grfs use different sizes, the ragged edge is horrible 12:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: some flexibility is needed 12:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: especially with road vehicles (without road-wagons) 12:09:57 <andythenorth> so what do you need that setx doesn't provide? 12:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's the point of the "width" parameter, if you take the maximum over all grfs, there is no ragged edge 12:10:39 <andythenorth> point 12:11:44 <andythenorth> some sprites will be floating a long way from their name string though 12:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> whether there should be a maximum is a different discussion 12:12:42 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 12:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and the sprites could be right-aligned 12:13:04 <andythenorth> I don't fancy handling bug reports due to the behaviour of other grfs 12:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> (but that won't help with rtl-languages) 12:13:34 <andythenorth> sprites are centred in the buy menu 12:13:42 <andythenorth> are / should be according to the game style /s 12:13:52 <andythenorth> some grfs do it wrong and left-align 12:14:15 * andythenorth is feeling didactic, but is prepared to lose that point :P 12:14:40 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS sprites are left aligned without any special handling. the default vehicles all have the same length 12:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (double headed vehicles are "magic") 12:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but some of the longer wagons overlap with the text 12:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and there is no "sane" solution for that currently 12:16:48 <andythenorth> nor for FISH 12:17:08 <andythenorth> te 12:17:25 <andythenorth> the larger ships - there's no useful crop for them to current buy menu sprite size 12:17:27 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3125/FISH_buy_menu.png 12:17:36 <andythenorth> e.g. Shannon Freighter 12:20:11 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d0c3:1ede:c1c:68c3] has joined #openttd 12:20:14 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:24:56 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 12:27:42 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: i think i understand. tho, a chunk seems to represent several actions and changes (and cant thus be usdd to collect real time changes?) 12:28:25 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: no. a chunk groups the information by type (i.e. all industries are gathered in one chunk, all trains in another chunk, etc.) 12:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: savegames are not "realtime" and you cannot construct the history out of them 12:28:59 <NGC3982> ah, i see. 12:30:10 <NGC3982> im getting my head around parsing data in our business systems, and making a third party client that connects to a server and collect economy statistics looked like a fun thing to start with. 12:32:51 <michi_cc> NGC3982: That's called admin port (http://svn.openttd.org/trunk/docs/admin_network.txt) and not savegame. 12:33:23 * NGC3982 has a look 12:33:47 <andythenorth> so any bright ideas for fixing FISH buy menu? :P 12:33:55 * andythenorth is bamboozled 12:34:07 <NGC3982> ah. 12:34:24 <NGC3982> perfect. exactly what i was looking for. 12:35:10 <NGC3982> we play a lot of ttd amongst the supervisors, and i want to integrate server data in our business system. 12:39:21 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc037.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:39:37 <andythenorth> quak 12:39:48 <frosch123> moin 12:41:16 <MNIM> oink 12:41:30 <FLHerne> How does CC recolouring work with objects in NML? 12:41:46 * FLHerne fails to understand the documentation again 12:43:14 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:48:44 <Hirundo> FLHerne: I assume you use the 'colour' callback, what do you not understand about that? 12:49:32 <FLHerne> How to use it for stuff :P New to NML... 12:50:33 <Hirundo> FLHerne: what are you trying to achieve? 12:50:44 <FLHerne> There's stuff about colour translation pallettes, and recolour sprites, and various other stuff, and I'm not quite understanding how it all fits together :P 12:51:13 <FLHerne> Just trying to get cc bits on objects to match the company colour, nothing fancy :-( 12:54:01 <Hirundo> you should set recolour_mode to RECOLOUR_REMAP and palette to PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT in the sptirelayout sprites you want recoloured 12:54:23 * FLHerne looks 12:54:45 <Hirundo> RECOLOUR_REMAP enables recolouring for the sprite 12:54:48 <FLHerne> Ah, now I see :D 12:55:06 <Hirundo> PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT tells OpenTTD to use the default recolour sprite, which for objects is 1 CC 12:55:06 <FLHerne> Got confused by looking at stuff I didn't need to know about :P 12:55:19 <Hirundo> (or if enabled by the respective flag, 2 CC) 12:55:23 <FLHerne> Thanks :-) 12:56:58 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 13:03:53 * andythenorth ponders autorefits 13:04:51 <andythenorth> vehicle ferries: refit anything 13:04:56 <andythenorth> automatically 13:05:31 <andythenorth> freight ships: autorefit if same class? 13:05:39 <andythenorth> makes no sense for lots of cargos, but meh :P 13:08:35 <andythenorth> e.g. scrap metal would be autorefittable to sugar beet 13:08:54 <andythenorth> clay would be autorefittable to wheat 13:09:34 <andythenorth> oil autorefittable to milk :P 13:09:44 <andythenorth> should I do label based checks? 13:10:24 <FLHerne> Probably 13:10:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: just please make auto-refitting symmetrical 13:11:03 <frosch123> else the gameplay will be horrible 13:11:08 <andythenorth> in which respect? 13:11:08 <FLHerne> I was going to say that :P 13:11:12 <andythenorth> oil <-> milk 13:11:24 <frosch123> don't allow refitting from sugar beet to scrap metal, if the reverse is not allowed 13:11:39 <frosch123> else a mixed line will end up with only scrap metal vehicles at some point 13:12:00 <FLHerne> UKRS2 allows you to refit, say, sugarbeet to wood but not wood to sugarbeet. Confusing and breaks things :-( 13:13:10 <frosch123> i.e. make refittability use real equivalency classes 13:13:17 <frosch123> symmetrical and transitive 13:13:26 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-97-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 13:14:06 <andythenorth> how should I implement that? 13:14:44 * andythenorth is happy to 13:15:08 <frosch123> either label based or only allow refitting between exactly same cargoclasses 13:15:22 <frosch123> resp. ignore one class completely 13:16:16 <frosch123> if you allow bulk<->oversized and bulk<->powderized, you also have to allow oversized<->powderized 13:16:31 <andythenorth> and if I only allow in same class? 13:16:44 <andythenorth> hmm 13:16:48 <andythenorth> on a three hop journey 13:17:00 <frosch123> you must compare all classes then 13:17:17 <andythenorth> [BULK, PIECE] -> [PIECE] -> [PIECE, REFRIGERATED] -> [REFRIGERATED] 13:17:22 <frosch123> else you can refit bulk -> bulk+powder -> powder and not get back to bulk 13:17:23 <andythenorth> four hops, no more refit 13:17:42 <andythenorth> pathological case? I think not :P 13:17:46 <andythenorth> refit all? 13:17:51 <andythenorth> easier :P 13:18:04 <frosch123> boring :p 13:18:32 <frosch123> better allow a vehicle to only carry bulk 13:18:36 <frosch123> and no powder ever 13:19:17 <MNIM> 0-o 13:19:18 <MNIM> dude 13:19:35 <MNIM> since when does mint have rolling updates on it's non-debian versions? 13:20:47 <FLHerne> It doesn't, does it? :o 13:20:50 <MNIM> well 13:21:18 <MNIM> I was very pleasantly surprised when I just checked and it turns out I installed the most recent version of OTTD via it's software manager. 13:21:45 <Sacro> MNIM: its 13:21:57 <frosch123> @topic get -2 13:21:57 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever 13:22:09 <frosch123> 'most recent' is not either 13:22:39 <telanus> nightly? 13:22:45 <telanus> :p 13:22:45 <frosch123> @topic set -2 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither 13:22:45 *** DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only 13:23:04 <MNIM> Sacro: ouch. It's/Its is one of those things in the english language I still do wrong 13:23:19 <MNIM> telanus: well, the latest stable, 1.2.1 according to the site 13:23:23 <Sacro> MNIM: it is -> it's, belonging to it -> its 13:23:38 <frosch123> sometimes there are also generic nightly packages, which grab the newest source from openttd.org whenever you update them 13:23:45 <MNIM> yeah, I know the theory, I just keep doing it WRONG >.< 13:24:19 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-93-108.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 13:25:20 * andythenorth thinks ships refit anything, automatically 13:25:41 <andythenorth> maybe I should split the tanker sprites to separate IDs 13:25:48 <andythenorth> despite they have same hull, stats etc 13:26:04 * telanus always plays with the latest nightly :D 13:26:17 <andythenorth> tankers -> refit any liquid 13:26:31 <andythenorth> not tanker -> refit anything except liquid 13:26:46 <telanus> that could work 13:27:05 * andythenorth refrigerated class? 13:27:21 <frosch123> refridgerated oil 13:27:35 <andythenorth> refrigerated LNG :P 13:27:59 <andythenorth> I don't really want to spam the buy menu with tankers 13:28:02 <andythenorth> but maybe I should 13:31:42 <andythenorth> if (liquid): auto-refit only if liquid 13:31:47 <andythenorth> else: refit any 13:31:49 <andythenorth> hmm 13:32:06 <andythenorth> that has some horrible edge cases with (liquid + something else) 13:32:11 <andythenorth> this sucks doesn't it :) 13:32:35 <andythenorth> I need storage on the vehicle 13:34:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ you are good at thorny problems 13:34:45 <Terkhen> andythenorth: tanker, passenger, anything else 13:35:09 <andythenorth> should I just spam the buy menu with tankers? 13:35:17 <Terkhen> no, use autorefit 13:35:30 <Terkhen> a ship can refit to all cargos 13:35:41 <andythenorth> my thinking too 13:35:42 <Terkhen> autorefitting between cargos of the same group is free 13:35:49 <andythenorth> how do you define group? 13:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if passengers, refit to passengers, if liquid refit to liquid, if non-liquid refit to non-liquid and non-passenger 13:36:01 <Terkhen> refitting between cargos of different groups has a cost and must be done at a shipyard 13:36:17 <Terkhen> andythenorth: tanker, passenger, anything else would be the groups in this case 13:36:17 <andythenorth> so exact match of classes? 13:36:27 * andythenorth is puzzled how to implement 13:36:31 <Terkhen> check ogfx-rv readme, that's how I did groups 13:36:33 <andythenorth> maybe I can store something on the animation frame 13:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> no, exact match of the "passenger" and "liquid" classes, don't-care on all others 13:36:43 * Terkhen implements it based on cargo labels 13:37:04 <andythenorth> so 'liquid' can't refit to 'liquid, refrigerated' ? 13:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it can, because refrigerated is "don't care" 13:37:43 <andythenorth> hmm 13:38:04 <andythenorth> people who don't want vehicles 'stuck' in a certain class - shouldn't use autorefit 13:38:05 <andythenorth> ? 13:39:33 <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you maintain lists of clean / dirty cargo labels? 13:39:54 <Terkhen> andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-rv/repository/entry/docs/readme.ptxt#L79 <--- an explanation of how it works in ogfx-rv 13:40:02 <andythenorth> was reading it ;) 13:40:08 <Terkhen> andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-rv/repository/entry/src/cargo_definitions.pnml#L122 <--- and the source 13:40:18 <Terkhen> as I said, I do it label by label 13:40:21 <andythenorth> ok so yes, by label 13:40:25 <andythenorth> hmm 13:40:32 <andythenorth> you make work for yourself in future? 13:40:57 <Terkhen> if a new cargo is added, it would need at most a new line for each vehicle :) 13:41:10 <andythenorth> fine 13:41:26 <Terkhen> I could try to find a cargo class scheme, but this is simpler to understand 13:41:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: I don't see any easy way to guarantee symmetrical refits 13:41:45 <Terkhen> what do you mean with symmetrical refits? 13:42:07 <andythenorth> basically, a warranty that all your vehicles won't end up autorefitted to scrap metal, with no way out 13:42:12 <andythenorth> for example 13:42:46 <andythenorth> on a four hop order list, you could easily start with cargo x, and have no way back to it 13:42:58 <andythenorth> e.g [BULK, PIECE] -> [PIECE] -> [PIECE, REFRIGERATED] -> [REFRIGERATED] 13:43:03 <andythenorth> can't get back to BULK 13:43:06 <andythenorth> so your route breaks 13:44:47 *** roadt_ [~roadt@114.96.132.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: you have to limit the clases you check 13:45:28 <andythenorth> example? :) 13:45:40 * andythenorth thinks there will be a pathological case for every scheme 13:45:55 <frosch123> if you have a specific rule to allow refitting piece to piece, you have to forbid refitting non-piece to piece and vice versa 13:46:46 <frosch123> so, you can make one vehicle which carries all piece goods and can refit between them 13:46:55 <frosch123> but it may not carry anything non-piece 13:47:20 <frosch123> simliar you can make a vehicle that can carry refridgerated stuff, but it may not carry non-refridged stuff 13:47:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: example 1 above is "ignore piece/bulk differences", example 2 would be, you have a "main" class for the ship, e.g. "piece" then you can refit to from "piece" to "piece, bulk" and vice versa, but not from "piece, bulk" to "bulk" 13:49:08 <andythenorth> hmm 13:49:21 * andythenorth is going to do some driving for 2 hours, that often produces an answer 13:49:35 <andythenorth> currently, it looks like adding tankers to the set might be the best solution 13:49:53 <andythenorth> the issue with tankers is that they have completely different graphics, I don't want them changing at stations 13:50:04 <andythenorth> that adds ~20 ships to the buy menu :P 13:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the idea was that anything that has "liquid" [and any other combination] cargo class can refit, and anything that has "not liquid" [and any combination] can refit 13:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so "piece,liquid" will be counted as liquid in all cases 13:51:59 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:45 <andythenorth> k, bbl 13:52:51 *** andythenorth [~Andy@elephanta.plus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 13:56:29 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.13.128] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:56:50 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:10 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 13:58:05 *** Kylie [Kylie@CPE18593346e177-CM18593346e174.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 14:04:15 *** KylieBrooks [Kylie@CPE18593346e177-CM18593346e174.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:08:37 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-061-223.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 14:14:43 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:16:08 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 14:31:42 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 14:35:56 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.13.128] has joined #openttd 14:42:18 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:51:45 <frosch123> V453000: try bananas upload again 14:54:05 <MNIM> andy, you're the one that makes FIRS, right? 14:55:57 <LordAro> why is it that to install doxygen i have to get ~500MB of archives?? 15:02:15 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6DE4D.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:03:00 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6DE4D.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 15:03:07 <frosch123> maybe it contains the docs of everything 15:03:07 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 15:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> 42.zip? :) 15:08:54 *** Lord_Aro [~LordAro@host81-155-172-174.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 15:09:37 *** LordAro is now known as Guest3212 15:09:37 *** Lord_Aro is now known as LordAro 15:11:33 *** telanus1 [~telanus@196-215-173-106.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 15:14:40 *** Guest3212 [~LordAro@host81-148-244-89.range81-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:16:02 *** telanus [~telanus@196-215-173-106.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:23:01 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.13.128] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:25 <cyph3r> Is OpenTTDCoop on this server? 15:28:30 <cyph3r> I mean IRC. 15:29:47 <Zuu> #openttdcoop 15:30:30 <Zuu> you could try "!password" here to get a prompt message about it :-) 15:30:42 <cyph3r> !password 15:30:42 *** cyph3r was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.] 15:30:43 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-93-108.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:30:51 * Alberth slaps Zuu :) 15:30:56 <cyph3r> Zuu : not cool :-D 15:31:10 <Zuu> :-) 15:31:38 <Zuu> well at least I warned you 15:32:13 <cyph3r> Yes, kick without a warning would be unpleasant. 15:32:22 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-93-108.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 15:32:36 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-93-108.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:42:25 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 15:46:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> lol 15:47:01 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 15:51:34 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 16:04:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:05:30 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24402 /trunk/src/ (elrail.cpp newgrf_station.cpp station_cmd.cpp station_func.h): -Fix [FS#5243]: Station properties 11 and 14 were combined incorrectly. 16:07:03 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24403 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Fix: Draw wires under low bridges if the bridge is transparent, not if the wire is transparent. 16:13:43 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:15:00 <LordAro> funny how sometimes, you find ancient bugs that you wonder why no one noticed before :) 16:15:58 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:22:36 <andythenorth> vehicles don't have an animation frame? 16:22:42 <andythenorth> they have to rely on the motion counter? 16:22:53 <frosch123> they have time and motion counter 16:23:03 <frosch123> they have no persistent storage 16:23:34 <andythenorth> k 16:23:55 <andythenorth> I thought we'd have abused it by now if there was animation frame :P 16:24:55 <Chris_Booth> hi 16:25:17 <andythenorth> using a trackpad is harder with a toddler sitting on your forearm 16:27:33 <andythenorth> the refit issue I have with FISH is another manifestion of 'cargo subtypes are a bad hack' 16:27:48 <andythenorth> at least for changing the physical properties of the vehicle 16:28:20 * andythenorth has ideas 16:28:36 <andythenorth> (1) vehicles get storage; never seems to get resolved if we like this or not 16:29:07 <andythenorth> (2) give buy menu 'categories', same as for stations; then group vehicles by category ('Tankers', 'Cargo Ships') etc 16:29:08 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.13.128] has joined #openttd 16:29:41 <andythenorth> (3) continue to use subtype as a hack, but introduce a new magic cargo for use in refit menu, which is equivalent to 'any valid refittable cargo' 16:30:32 <andythenorth> which would allow things like 'Any valid refittable cargo for tanker', 'Any valid refittable cargo for general cargo vessel' 16:30:42 <andythenorth> (4) spam the buy menu 16:31:37 <frosch123> the buy menu is only spammed if people do not use the retire early property 16:32:15 <andythenorth> I should learn how that works :P 16:32:43 * andythenorth is leaning towards 'add ship IDs for tankers' 16:32:56 <andythenorth> probably also 'reefers' and 'livestock carriers' 16:33:42 <andythenorth> FISH already has 30 ships or so 16:33:53 <andythenorth> dunno another 20 really enhances it :| 16:35:18 <FLHerne> It'll never be as bad as eGRVTS, so go ahead :P 16:35:24 <frosch123> i think whenever i played fish, all ships were already available 16:35:33 <frosch123> i did never noticed anyone being introduced new 16:35:50 <frosch123> are all introdates before 1920? 16:36:03 <frosch123> or after 1980? 16:36:10 <FLHerne> More variety would definitely be nice :-) 16:38:15 <FLHerne> Is using multiple industry sets a universal [no], or would it be possible to have industry sets that were compatible? 16:38:30 <andythenorth> all intro dates are 1870 for FISH 16:38:48 <andythenorth> industry sets could be compatible via co-operation between authors 16:39:11 <andythenorth> I'm going to cut down the scope of FISH to start around 1920 16:39:20 <andythenorth> the long game is over-rated 16:39:50 <andythenorth> but I remain puzzled about autorefit 16:42:15 <FLHerne> andythenorth: :-( 16:42:35 <FLHerne> Long games are the best kind :P 16:53:25 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24404 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Add: Data structures for cargo transport monitoring. 16:55:14 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24405 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Add: Save and load of active cargo monitors. 16:56:52 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 16:59:22 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24406 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: Allow game scripts to monitor cargo pickups and deliveries done by companies. 17:00:33 <Alberth> with many thanks to Zuu for his assistance 17:00:49 <Zuu> nice :-) 17:01:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> i think FISH covers the modern era quite well with different sized ships 17:02:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> it could use some older boats/barges though, smaller steam ones or early diesels with smaller capacity (think english narrow-canalboats, the pulled from shore boats (using horsed usually) etc etc 17:06:53 <andythenorth> currently FISH is beached 17:08:31 <andythenorth> stuck on: buy menu + autorefit 17:09:27 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Buy menu looks a pain. What's up with autorefit? 17:10:06 <andythenorth> no sane scheme to make it work 17:11:28 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is that concept or implementation? Or both? :P 17:11:38 <andythenorth> concept 17:12:48 * FLHerne thinks 17:13:03 <andythenorth> I'll probably use the idea from Eddi|zuHause 17:13:15 <andythenorth> I do in more cases than not 17:17:01 <andythenorth> I could use cargo subtype 17:17:14 <V453000> Hi! I am trying to update my newGRF on bananas and as usual, I add a zip with grf, license, readme and changelog. In compare to the older versions is changed not only .grf file but also readme file a bit. As a result I am getting an error "a package can include only one license file" :o Does anyone know what to do with that please? 17:18:38 <michi_cc> V453000: Did you try after 17:02 CEST? 17:18:46 <V453000> yesterday, not today 17:18:49 <V453000> will try noaw 17:18:53 <FLHerne> Separate tankers in buy menu/vehicle types. Allow autorefitting between all bulk mineral types. Allow autorefitting between all 'clean' bulk types (grain/beet). Allow depot-only refitting between dirty/clean bulk types. 17:19:18 <V453000> yay it worked now michi_cc :D thanks 17:19:24 <V453000> something changed? 17:19:52 <frosch123> yup :p 17:20:04 <frosch123> since yesterday you can add translated readmes and changelogs 17:20:11 <frosch123> since today you can upload custom licenses again :p 17:20:22 <V453000> oh right :) 17:20:25 <andythenorth> autorefit adds a lot of micro-management 17:20:31 <andythenorth> ironically 17:21:25 <FLHerne> Allow autorefitting between refrigerated types. Allow (expensive) depot-only refitting between this and bulk types. 17:22:04 <FLHerne> Allow depot-only refitting between pax and mail. 17:22:52 <FLHerne> Allow autorefit between supplies/timber/metal/goods. Do not allow autorefitting of tankers, but have cheap depot refits. 17:23:11 <andythenorth> how do you satisfy the 'refits must be symmetric' condition? 17:23:34 <andythenorth> grain > clay but ! clay > grain in this scheme ;) 17:23:47 <andythenorth> fails symmetric requirement 17:23:52 <FLHerne> Allow (expensive) depot refit between supplies etc and other no-tanker/non-pax types. There. Done :P 17:23:53 *** zxbiohazardzx_ [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:24:21 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No. only depot refit between dirty/clean bulk types :P 17:24:36 <andythenorth> not symmetric :) 17:25:07 <FLHerne> Forbid autorefit from clean -> dirty, not just dirty -> clean 17:25:15 * FLHerne draws diagram 17:25:41 <frosch123> FLHerne: asymmetric refittability sucks for gameplay 17:26:00 <frosch123> though i cannot remember whether you can allow autorefitting and make it cost at the same time 17:27:20 <andythenorth> it's important not to have asymmetric across a chain of refits too 17:27:50 <andythenorth> e.g. one refit might be symmetric, but the classes are also the union of two asymmetric refits 17:28:30 <andythenorth> so you end up with a lof of micromanagement 17:29:03 <andythenorth> because your vehicles a forever getting stuck at stations unable to refit 17:29:10 <andythenorth> a / are /s 17:29:43 <FLHerne> FLHerne: No assymetric autorefits. Just can't explain intelligibly 17:29:54 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:34 * andythenorth is heading towards 'autorefit any' 17:32:24 <frosch123> you could try making autorefit rediculous expensive :p 17:32:56 <frosch123> refitting oil->water for 10 times is worth a new vehicle 17:33:14 <zxbiohazardzx_> give it a limited number of refits? 17:33:20 <zxbiohazardzx_> aka max refits = X 17:33:21 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24407 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt korean.txt): 17:33:21 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:33:21 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 15 changes by telanus 17:33:21 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 11 changes by telk5093 17:33:35 <andythenorth> having considered it, I don't like any of this stuff 17:33:36 <zxbiohazardzx_> reduce 1 per refit, when 0 do not allow refitting but insist on new ? 17:33:47 <andythenorth> refit is opaque to the user, there's nothing about it in the GUI 17:33:54 <andythenorth> it's mystery meat 17:34:09 <andythenorth> I don't think playing a guessing game of 'wtf, how does autorefit work' is a fun game 17:34:20 <andythenorth> smells all wrong to me 17:34:36 <andythenorth> Alberth: Terkhen you wanted autorefit in FISH? 17:35:31 <zxbiohazardzx_> would it be possible for eg the rivership to carry coal for 50% and iron for other 50% 17:35:42 <Alberth> difficult to say, I have had one case where auto-refit would be useful 17:35:43 <zxbiohazardzx_> aka mimic the real-life loading bays inside the ship 17:35:50 <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx_ if you make two trips, each half-empty, yes 17:35:53 <zxbiohazardzx_> aka multiple cargos within a ship 17:36:08 <zxbiohazardzx_> andythenorth no i suggested to have 1 trip, both cargos in 1 ship 17:36:19 <Alberth> at the same time :) 17:36:20 <andythenorth> have two smaller ships 17:36:30 <zxbiohazardzx_> no 17:36:39 <zxbiohazardzx_> i want 1 big ship with split cargo option 17:36:56 <zxbiohazardzx_> bulk/bulk 17:36:58 <andythenorth> http://i-want-a-pony.com/ 17:37:04 <zxbiohazardzx_> yeah yeah 17:37:29 <andythenorth> if you provide a patch, it might be accepted 17:37:36 <zxbiohazardzx_> http://www.theworldsworstwebsiteever.com/ 17:37:39 <andythenorth> I'll code newgrf support for it if you add it 17:37:47 <zxbiohazardzx_> hmmz 17:38:34 <Alberth> andythenorth: so it happens some times, and it would be fun to see how auto-refit would handle it. However, I cannot oversee all consequences of auto-refit, perhaps it makes life too complicated 17:38:44 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I sent you a diagram as a PM 17:39:09 <FLHerne> Is there something like pastebin for images? 17:40:43 <zxbiohazardzx_> imagedump, imageshack or eehm 17:40:50 <zxbiohazardzx_> there was a imagedropper somewhere 17:41:01 <zxbiohazardzx_> imagebin.org 17:42:05 <andythenorth> hmm 17:42:12 <andythenorth> so FLHerne proposes label based refit 17:42:18 <andythenorth> maybe that's the right answer 17:42:28 <FLHerne> With diagram: http://imagebin.org/220874 :P 17:42:48 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Class-based refits would have strange cases 17:42:53 <andythenorth> label based autorefit would need a class based fallback 17:43:01 <andythenorth> otherwise the grf can't support new cargos 17:43:17 <FLHerne> True. Not that many industry grfs though :P 17:43:56 <FLHerne> Pikkabird's UKRS2 has class-based refits, some of which are totally nonsensical :-( 17:44:09 <andythenorth> so can't refit from e.g. grain to goods - what's the reasoning? 17:44:18 <andythenorth> would need explaining to players 17:44:33 <frosch123> add a translated readme :p 17:44:42 <FLHerne> Grain tends not to come in convenient boxes :P 17:44:48 <zxbiohazardzx_> ships refitting code is in ship_cmd? 17:45:02 <andythenorth> FLHerne: so cargos are always in one and only one group? 17:45:14 <FLHerne> I suppose you could have it in both categories, it would make sense for sacks 17:45:34 <FLHerne> No. I started typing the above before your answer, though 17:45:49 <andythenorth> has to be one and only one group per label 17:45:59 <ben1066_> the openttd android port is unofficial right? 17:46:03 <andythenorth> otherwise you can get vehicles stuck in a dead-end refit 17:46:07 *** ben1066_ is now known as ben1066 17:46:11 <FLHerne> Ok, have it in one group then :P 17:46:18 <ben1066> what do you guys think of it on tablets in anycase? 17:46:52 <FLHerne> Unless you could differentiate between grain (piece goods) and grain (clean bulk) with cargo subtypes? 17:46:54 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx_: I suspect in vehicle_* somewhere, as all types of transport can do refitting 17:47:00 <FLHerne> Unsure how those work, tbh 17:47:12 <FLHerne> ben1066: Hopeless without a mouse. 17:47:19 <zxbiohazardzx_> hmmz k, ship_cmd only has building a ship, not refitting it :P 17:47:38 <andythenorth> so which group does wood go in? 17:47:44 * Zuu likes tablets as in wacom tablets 17:47:56 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx_: grep Refit src/*.cpp :) 17:47:57 <Zuu> Eg as a mouse replacement, used with a pen 17:48:15 <Alberth> andythenorth: long things 17:48:25 <FLHerne> andythenorth Unsure. Probably with goods/timber. Others would make even less sense 17:48:27 <Zuu> A fat finger on the other hand can't do right/middle clicks and have much worse precision. 17:48:36 <andythenorth> where does scrap metal go? 17:48:50 <FLHerne> Dirty bulk, definitely 17:48:55 <andythenorth> sugar beet? 17:49:04 <FLHerne> Clean bulk 17:49:20 <FLHerne> Recyclables - unsure 17:49:23 <andythenorth> food? 17:49:28 <FLHerne> Refrigerated 17:49:32 <andythenorth> wood products? 17:50:21 <FLHerne> Which kind? Timber is piece, goods from paper mill are also piece 17:50:40 <andythenorth> wood products covers timber, board, wood chips 17:50:59 <frosch123> lumber is dirty bulk, wood products are clean builk 17:51:00 <FLHerne> Scrap is because it makes sense for gameplay - goes to the same places as coal/bauxite/ore :P 17:51:14 <andythenorth> cut wood is clean bulk? :o 17:51:28 <andythenorth> it's not pourable 17:51:32 <FLHerne> frosch123: Unconvinced. Timber is definitely piece goods. 17:51:42 <andythenorth> cut wood is countable 17:51:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Are there non-timber wood products in ECS or FIRS? 17:51:59 <andythenorth> in ECS yes 17:52:01 * andythenorth ponders 17:52:09 <andythenorth> it's silly to do this for one vehicle set 17:52:15 <andythenorth> it should be a standard across sets 17:52:23 <andythenorth> frosch123 can we have a new cargo property: 'cargo group' ? 17:52:37 <andythenorth> it would be ideal for this situation 17:52:42 * FLHerne agrees. This is silly :P 17:53:11 <andythenorth> cargo groups will need identifiers / names 17:53:17 <andythenorth> what would they be? 17:54:01 <frosch123> FLHerne: i have seen trucks with stake wagons for wood 17:54:10 <frosch123> but on trains i have only seen open wagons with wood 17:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> wood isn't carried on rail as often as it used to 17:55:02 <zxbiohazardzx_> hmmz so far i cant find anything for it :( 17:55:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what would "group" be fundamentally different from "class"? 17:55:58 <FLHerne> frosch123: All UK wood trains I've seen are staked 17:56:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it would solve all these problems of course ;) 17:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's fairly unlikely :p 17:56:36 <zxbiohazardzx_> actually i think my question comes down to articulated ships 17:56:39 <zxbiohazardzx_> or at least cargowise 17:56:51 <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx_: +1 17:56:52 <zxbiohazardzx_> so engine.cpp would require a similar line as road/trains have? 17:56:58 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A720.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:57:01 <frosch123> google has lots of staked wood trains 17:57:17 <andythenorth> invisible articulated ships ~= ships with n holds 17:57:36 <zxbiohazardzx_> ala case VEH_SHIP: if(this->u.ship?.capacity ==0) return false; break; 17:57:44 <zxbiohazardzx_> assuming ship for its rail and road.... 17:57:46 <andythenorth> ships can't collide so should be easy ;) 17:58:08 <zxbiohazardzx_> well ship_cmd doesnt limit cargoes 17:58:17 <zxbiohazardzx_> it simply gets teh cargo from engine.cpp 17:58:27 <zxbiohazardzx_> const ShipVehicleInfo *svi = &e->u.ship; 17:58:37 <zxbiohazardzx_> v->cargo_type = e->GetDefaultCargoType(); 17:58:37 <zxbiohazardzx_> v->cargo_cap = svi->capacity; 17:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: in germany the "Drehschemelwagen" was common. it's basically two short wagons which can be adjusted in distance according to what is loaded on them. 17:59:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: for the tricky case, I'm going to do something like 'if current subtype == Tanker, and cargo subtype == Tanker, allow' 17:59:25 <andythenorth> and similar for 'General Cargo' subtype 17:59:44 <zxbiohazardzx_> case VEH_SHIP: 17:59:44 <zxbiohazardzx_> capacity = GetEngineProperty(this->index, PROP_SHIP_CARGO_CAPACITY, this->u.ship.capacity, v); 17:59:44 <zxbiohazardzx_> break; 17:59:48 <andythenorth> I can also handle ships that have different graphics for PAX cargo this way 17:59:52 <zxbiohazardzx_> blegh, stupid point to point to point :( 18:00:17 <zxbiohazardzx_> PROP_SHIP_CARGO_CAPACITY is a variable you can set in newgrf i assume? 18:00:17 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Those would be 'single bolsters' here, used to be common. 18:01:14 <zxbiohazardzx_> whatever i have to go :( 18:01:18 <zxbiohazardzx_> back later 18:01:24 *** zxbiohazardzx_ [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has left #openttd [] 18:01:49 <andythenorth> nobody tell zx how hard patching ships is 18:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.der-lokbauer.de/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_39493/Drehschemelwagen.jpg <-- looks like this. the pieces on top of the wagon can rotate, and the pieces in front of the wagon define the distance 18:02:08 <andythenorth> he might achieve it if he doesn't know he has to figure out the refit gui and all the things we couldn't agree on previouslyu 18:02:25 <Alberth> :) 18:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/8370/2967Drehschemelwagen.jpg <-- looks like this when loaded 18:14:24 <Terkhen> andythenorth: sorry, I was away 18:14:27 <Terkhen> I'm lucky today? :) 18:18:51 <Alberth> you always are :) 18:20:10 <Terkhen> I don't think so :P 18:35:02 *** cmircea_ [~cmircea@86.123.42.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:55:31 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0/20120710123126]] 19:00:36 <andythenorth> so in FISH I'm going to allow autorefit if cargo subtype matches 19:01:03 <andythenorth> and I'm going to introduce cargo subtypes that describe the current physical shape of the ship 19:01:12 <andythenorth> this doesn't work for BANDIT :| 19:01:16 <andythenorth> but nvm 19:01:42 <FLHerne> "cargo subtypes that describe the current physical shape of the ship"? 19:01:52 <andythenorth> Tanker 19:01:56 <andythenorth> General cargo vessel 19:02:30 <Terkhen> hmmm 19:02:52 <Terkhen> I'm not sure if that's overcomplicated or the first useful usage of cargo subtypes I have seen 19:03:10 <FLHerne> Oh. Like that. :P 19:03:32 <andythenorth> subtypes are very valid for this case 19:03:33 <FLHerne> Why doesn't it work for BANDIT? 19:03:45 <andythenorth> maybe it can 19:03:54 * andythenorth wonders how may subtypes are supported 19:04:21 <FLHerne> Also, does that allow autorefitting between (say) Milk and Petrol? 19:04:39 <andythenorth> yes 19:05:10 <andythenorth> hmm 19:05:11 <FLHerne> You'll give all the TT-People nasty diseases :-( 19:05:19 <andythenorth> where is the var for cargo subtype hiding in the wiki? 19:05:22 <__ln__> Anyone been to the Cité de Espace in Toulouse? 19:05:48 <__ln__> correction: Cité de l'espace 19:06:36 <andythenorth> cargo subtype has values 0..255 19:06:43 <FLHerne> Can't you add separate subclasses for Tanker (clean) and Tanker (poisonous) ;p 19:06:53 <andythenorth> possibly 19:06:56 <andythenorth> not an insane suggestion 19:07:08 <andythenorth> how many bits can I stuff in 0..255 if I use it as a bitmask? 19:07:15 <FLHerne> Actually, getting oil residue in chemicals might be a bad thing (r) too :P 19:07:38 <andythenorth> FLHerne: my company always flushes the tanks with steam before reloading :P 19:07:41 <andythenorth> the customer pays 19:08:02 <FLHerne> Add an autorefit cost for tankers then? 19:08:15 <andythenorth> then it wont autorefit at stations 19:08:23 <FLHerne> Oh, ok 19:08:28 <andythenorth> if I can bit-stuff the cargo subtype, I can use it for both: number trailers for a truck, type of current trailers 19:08:44 <andythenorth> 0, 2, 4, 8 = number of trailers 19:09:03 <andythenorth> 16, 32, 64, 128 19:09:10 <andythenorth> hmm only 4 types available :( 19:10:04 <FLHerne> Do you need 4 bits for no of trailers? Or did I miss something? 19:10:18 <andythenorth> between 0 and 3 trailers per truck 19:10:54 <FLHerne> Surely that's 2 bits? Or does that not work in NML/NFO? 19:11:27 <andythenorth> works for bits 19:11:33 <FLHerne> s/not work/work differently/ 19:11:33 <andythenorth> dunno it if works for a bit mask 19:11:47 <andythenorth> trailer types, I have at least 5: Tanker, Box, Flat, Tipper, Stakes 19:14:20 <FLHerne> That's still only 5 bits out of 8? Correct me if totally wrong, I haven't tried to use that in NML yet :P 19:17:35 <andythenorth> hmm 19:17:40 <andythenorth> do I only need 3 for the trailers? 19:17:47 <andythenorth> no bits set = no trailers 19:17:52 <andythenorth> bit 1 set = 1 trailer 19:17:53 <andythenorth> etc 19:19:10 <FLHerne> If you only have 0 to 3, you should only need 2 bits :P 19:19:31 * FLHerne probably missed the point again 19:21:40 <andythenorth> 2 = 1 trailer, 4 = 2 trailers, 6 = 3 trailers 19:21:40 <andythenorth> ok 19:21:43 <andythenorth> 2 bits 19:22:29 <andythenorth> BANDIT has this nice feature where it will choose random trailer graphics for some cargos 19:22:33 <andythenorth> that needs to be removed :P 19:23:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why? Random is nice :-) 19:23:48 <andythenorth> incompatible with autoreft 19:24:11 <andythenorth> makes autorefit orders non-deterministic 19:24:17 <andythenorth> which causes micro-management 19:25:19 <FLHerne> That makes sense now :-) 19:29:50 <michi_cc> andythenorth: autorefit can have a cost if you use the CB. 19:30:32 * andythenorth should read the spec :P 19:31:12 <andythenorth> for some reason I thought cost had to be 0 for autorefit 19:31:13 <andythenorth> nvm 19:31:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Possibly because no-one uses that yet? 19:36:47 <Alberth> good night 19:37:06 <andythenorth> bye Alberth 19:37:09 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:37:57 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd [] 19:41:04 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-93-108.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 19:44:57 <andythenorth> ho 19:45:07 * andythenorth just played a flash game with 'achievments' 19:45:19 <andythenorth> I've heard of these, but never ever played a game with them 19:45:27 <andythenorth> why doesn't openttd have them? :P 19:47:17 <telanus1> what type of achievements could OpenTTD have? 19:47:22 *** telanus1 is now known as telanus 19:47:50 <andythenorth> 'you built a train: 50 points!' 19:47:50 <frosch123> build 100 trains 19:48:10 <frosch123> transport 1000 tons of coal with one train in a year 19:48:24 <andythenorth> frosch123: achievments or goals? :P 19:48:26 <frosch123> bought 3 opponents within one game 19:48:37 <andythenorth> http://www.diffen.com/difference/Goal_vs_Objective 19:48:38 <frosch123> achievement 19:48:44 <KenjiE20> coop achievement, cover 80% of land in tracks 19:48:44 <telanus> "Build a Airroute that brings in 0000 per trip" 19:50:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: like highscores, but based on different things 19:50:44 <andythenorth> yes 19:50:56 <andythenorth> I am a bit cynical about 'achievements' tbh 19:50:59 <frosch123> things you do not know in advance 19:51:18 <andythenorth> GS could deliver achievments 19:52:00 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 19:53:12 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 20:00:05 <andythenorth> reefer ships have been around a long time :o 20:00:07 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_ship 20:02:13 *** peter1138 [~petern@217.64.121.242] has joined #openttd 20:02:16 *** mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ 20:02:46 <peter1138> Evenin' 20:02:55 <Rubidium> EHLO 20:03:39 <peter1138> I'm not falling into the trap of pretending to be an ESMTP server... 20:06:36 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:07:37 <frosch123> night 20:07:40 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc037.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:37 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 20:29:18 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 20:32:25 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:33:37 *** telanus [~telanus@196-215-173-106.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:14 <Terkhen> good night 20:41:40 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 20:50:07 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:50:53 *** cmircea_ [~cmircea@86.123.42.12] has joined #openttd 21:21:45 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:47 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has joined #openttd 21:45:27 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0/20120710123126]] 21:49:18 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc10-linl9-2-0-cust80.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 21:50:19 <LordAro> g'night to anyone who's left 21:55:36 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-112-89.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 21:55:45 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-112-89.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:03:48 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:05:38 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 22:07:56 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 22:12:44 <Wolf01> 'night 22:12:50 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:15:47 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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