Log for #openttd on 26th September 2012:
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00:14:46  <dada_> hello. does anyone know how I can enable the standard electric trains (from temperate) in the sub-arctic and sub-tropical climates? (if it helps, I'm planning on running a dedicated server)
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00:32:42  <V453000> dada_: OpenGFX+ trains can do that
00:32:46  <V453000> through parameter settings
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08:40:24  <planet> moin
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09:12:22  <TaylorBaby> WWW.QUICKCOLLEGEHOOKUPS.COM is giving away 7 more FREE accounts!
09:12:32  *** TaylorBaby [] has quit [autokilled: This host triggered network flood protection. please mail if you feel this is in error, quoting this message. (2012-09-26 09:12:32)]
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09:36:36  <planetmaker> @op
09:37:31  <planetmaker> @op
09:37:34  *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by DorpsGek
09:37:42  <planetmaker> @kban TaylorBaby
09:37:42  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: TaylorBaby is not in #openttd.
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11:42:50  <NGC3982> :3
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12:59:48  <Terkhen> hello
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13:06:35  * andythenorth ponders trucks
13:07:20  <lugo> hi andythenorth
13:07:25  <andythenorth> bonsoir
13:10:10  <Terkhen> andythenorth: trucks are nice and fun
13:10:31  <Terkhen> or are you pondering somethong more complicated?
13:10:41  <andythenorth> 'less' complicated ideally
13:10:41  <Terkhen> something*
13:11:35  <Terkhen> in which way? :P
13:11:56  <andythenorth> trying to design BANDIT
13:12:06  <andythenorth> without too many trucks
13:12:11  <andythenorth> got some ideas
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13:17:19  <planetmaker> less complicated sounds good. And hi andythenorth
13:17:25  <andythenorth> hi hi
13:17:36  <andythenorth> some things are obvious
13:17:41  <andythenorth> there *must* be tank trucks
13:18:16  <andythenorth> there *must* be a basic flatbed truck (which can refit to a wide range of cargos)
13:19:04  <andythenorth> I think box trucks are needed (primarily for express cargos - food, and such)
13:19:47  <andythenorth> I want to add a few specific types like cement trucks (building materials)
13:20:00  <Terkhen> box/bulk/tank should cover all if not most cargos
13:20:30  <Terkhen> you will get more if you consider refrigerated versions
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13:22:36  <lugo> don't know about cement trucks; glass works produces building materials :/
13:24:42  <lugo> novice players will argue it's un-r-word that it would be possible to send them there i think
13:25:24  <lugo> i'd like to have them in game though :D
13:27:15  <andythenorth> players schmayers
13:28:00  <andythenorth> Terkhen: I think box trucks have sufficient refrigeration :P
13:28:07  <dada__> I wonder if a good way to spread out trucks without using timetables would be to force them to remain a certain distance from one another
13:28:12  <andythenorth> I'll probably change my mind on that though
13:30:01  <Terkhen> :)
13:30:22  <andythenorth> would have been so much easier if players could build different trailers for trucks :P
13:35:20  <Terkhen> that would be the best solution, yes
13:37:20  <andythenorth> maybe I should stop working on RV sets for now
13:37:31  <andythenorth> they're not satisfactory :P
13:40:37  <__ln__> "In 1996 ITU issued recommendation H.323 entitled "Visual Telephone Systems and Equipment for Local Area Networks Which Provide a Non-Guaranteed Quality of Service." Only the telephone industry would think of such a name." -- what a great tanenbaumian remark by Tanenbaum
13:41:26  <dada__> I'm trying to run a dedicated server on freebsd, the bin is /usr/local/bin/openttd, the config is specified via command line as /home/msikma/OpenTTD/openttd.cfg, anyone know where it will look for newgrfs? I've specified two newgrfs to be loaded but it claims it can't find them (they're in /home/msikma/OpenTTD/content_download/newgrf)
13:42:28  <planetmaker> try ~/.openttd/newgrf
13:42:45  <planetmaker> don't put manually stuff into any folder called *content_download*
13:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: you should see some german law names :p
13:43:04  <dada__> cool I'll try that. (any way I can specify a different dir via command line?)
13:43:11  <planetmaker> no
13:43:25  <dada__> this dir will do though I'll just move my scripts there
13:43:30  <dada__> did not know about t
13:43:38  <planetmaker> readme anyone? :-)
13:43:45  <planetmaker> Line 188ff
13:43:46  <dada__> you are correct, sorry :(
13:44:09  <planetmaker> (sorry, I really know the line number by heart meanwhile)
13:45:44  <planetmaker> if you plan to run several servers it's a good idea to make a separate dir for each binary. put the corresponding cfg next to it. And symlink the ~/.openttd/XXX folders to the respecitive folders relative to the binary
13:48:43  <planetmaker> running servers usually also works nicer, if you do not install OpenTTD, but just keep the binary in a (local) folder. It's easier to update and allows you to run different binaries in parallel
13:49:12  <andythenorth> really, how hard could rv-wagons be?
13:50:23  <andythenorth> or I could make a railtype for road vehicles
13:50:29  <dada__> planetmaker: ah, that's not a bad idea indeed
13:51:41  <andythenorth> planetmaker: Terkhen want to help me do RVs as a railtype?
13:51:47  <andythenorth> it will solve most of the issues with RVs
13:52:58  <planetmaker> shouldn't we rather invent road types and user-defined composition of RVs?
13:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: seriously? why don't you just make a train grf. why must they look like RVs?
13:53:23  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: good point :o
13:54:32  <andythenorth> I guess it's only graphics
13:54:58  * andythenorth wonders what the point of RVs is at all?
13:55:20  <andythenorth> other than realism
13:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they can move in city centers, and they have really short distance between vehicles
13:59:29  <andythenorth> but a train will carry more, and make a bigger, quivker return on investment
13:59:43  <andythenorth> maybe we just need underground stations
13:59:52  <andythenorth> for cities
14:00:12  <peter1138> code it
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14:00:54  <andythenorth> got enough spare bits?
14:01:58  <peter1138> yes, mine are not currently in use
14:02:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have a game where trams can easily handle the passenger load, while trains are horribly and utterly congested
14:03:23  <dada__> hm, newgrfs are in the ~/.openttd/newgrf/ dir but they still can't be found/loaded. maybe I did not make the savegame with those newgrfs loaded.
14:03:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: multi-level train-stations needed?
14:03:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sure, one single train can load more than one tram, but with limited space there's only so much you can optimise with distance between two trains following each other
14:05:15  <planetmaker> dada__, you need the exact same version of the newgrfs (matching md5sum)
14:05:53  <planetmaker> dada__, try to start the server with ./openttd -D -d grf=1 -g savegame.sav
14:06:43  <dada__> they should be the precise same, I lifted them out of my local openttd dir where I downloaded them via ingame content browser.
14:07:52  <dada__>
14:08:50  <planetmaker> ERROR: Game Load Failed?NewGRF mismatch
14:08:50  <planetmaker> ERROR: Missing GRF file(s) have been disabled
14:09:13  <dada__> I think I managed to get it to work now after moving the dirs to the data dir
14:09:16  <dada__> out of the newgrf dir
14:09:26  <planetmaker> data dir... what openttd version do you run?
14:09:31  <dada__> 1.1.3
14:09:35  <planetmaker> o_O
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14:09:48  <planetmaker> dada__, you'll not enjoy running that version as server...
14:09:53  <dada__> (because that's the one in the freebsd ports)
14:09:54  <dada__> hm!
14:10:05  <planetmaker> and yes, that version uses data instead of newgrf (still)
14:10:08  <dada__> aha
14:10:13  <dada__> I should have mentioned that sooner, haha
14:10:22  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I still find the idea of RV wagons interesting, but it is too big for my currently small coding times/inclination
14:10:25  <planetmaker> people will not have that version any longer. And they need that very exact version to join
14:10:26  <dada__> well, time to see to getting a newer version
14:10:42  <planetmaker> you're then better advised to compile your openttd yourself, I think
14:10:43  <dada__> yeah, I'm actually only making this server for a couple of friends, but it would be better for them if I got the latest version too
14:11:03  <Terkhen> therefore, I prefer to code simpler stuff :P
14:11:11  <planetmaker> I know of no place where there's pre-compiled openttd for freebsd
14:11:33  <planetmaker> other than their package manger (which obviously has an outdated one)
14:12:14  <dada__> package managers tend to be like that, oh well
14:12:19  <planetmaker> yes
14:12:39  <planetmaker> you'll need to get an svn checkout to compile a server yourself
14:13:01  <planetmaker> (yes, svn. tar ball doesn't suffice)
14:13:12  <planetmaker> nor our git or hg mirrors
14:13:54  <dada__> somehow my config file ended up being reduced to standard settings :P
14:14:01  <planetmaker> and make sure to not use gcc 4.5... it's somewhat buggy
14:14:11  <dada__> thanks for the information, I'll give it a spin in a minute
14:15:12  <planetmaker> dada__, if you load a savegame, the config file nearly doesn't matter (except the network section)
14:16:06  <planetmaker> and unless you have a setup with several IP addresses, it often needs no config either. You'll only need to configure ports, if you want to run non-standard ports or several servers at once
14:16:11  <andythenorth> maybe the problem is autorefit
14:18:24  <dada__> that's actually useful, that way I can set up the options in the savegame
14:18:43  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I was fearing that you would mention that
14:19:59  <dada__> I hope 40 is not too high a station spread :D
14:20:19  <planetmaker> don't worry about that... it just depends on how you like to play
14:20:34  <planetmaker> I often use the max (64)
14:21:53  <dada__> it still says "high values slow the game", but I've loaded coop games set to 64 that seemed to work OK
14:22:14  <planetmaker> well, both is true :-)
14:22:27  <dada__> I guess for recent PCs it's not such a big issue anymore
14:23:01  <planetmaker> it slows down path finding as spread^2 tiles need to be searched for acceptable destination tiles
14:23:55  <dada__> so that's 4096 tiles for spread=64
14:24:00  <dada__> 144 for 12
14:24:03  <planetmaker> yes
14:24:07  <dada__> tha'ts a big difference
14:24:58  <planetmaker> but - from my POV - it's more important to make sure you don't have a too big total map size. As that quickly leads to games becoming unplayable without feeling finished
14:25:13  <planetmaker> thus we allow on our coop servers only maps which are smaller than ~ 500.000 tiles
14:25:46  <planetmaker> they allow still enough playing fun for a week or so before everything is built to players satisfaction
14:26:17  <dada__> hmm let's see, I'm running a 256x1024 map, so that ought to be fine
14:26:29  <dada__> we probably won't build as fast as the coop servers
14:27:03  <planetmaker> it always depends on the amount of players :-)
14:27:23  <dada__> probably no more than 6 or so
14:27:47  <planetmaker> that's already a quite decent amount, if they're online concurrently
14:31:02  <planetmaker> compare that with the current status of the (public) servers:
14:31:47  <dada__> haha ah yeah I see
14:33:00  <planetmaker> one person playing 1.1.3 ;-)
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14:57:34  <drac_boy> hi
14:57:37  <Markk> oi
14:58:37  <drac_boy> so mm just wondering about it if anyone have any thoughts to add...
14:59:17  <drac_boy> 4-coupled standard verus 2+2 coupled mallet in term of tractive?
14:59:46  <drac_boy> I'm thinking obviously the latter would have more (unless it was underweighted) due to re having four pistons ... but not sure if there could be more
15:00:19  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: usually the mallet has less, because the power distribution over both sections is not optimal
15:01:45  <drac_boy> hmm thanks
15:02:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it may have more power (due to more effectively using the heat) but less tractive effort
15:03:16  <drac_boy> looking at it now I guess another reason they could want to get a mallet is if curves were restrictive to anything with a longer wheelbase and yt they wanted to replace their old tank locomotives
15:04:21  <drac_boy> although I'm surprised that one the 760mm railroad in germany had like a 2-10-0T or so in their rooster. must had needed generious curves
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15:04:46  <drac_boy> either way thanks Eddi|zuHause and yeah you're right about more power
15:05:00  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: 760mm is in austria/jugoslavia
15:05:18  <drac_boy> that was one of the reason for PRR's good but shortlived modern steam locomotives which were 3+2 coupled rather than 5 coupled
15:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> germany has 750mm and 1000mm mostly
15:05:28  <drac_boy> oh guess I was thinking of 750 then
15:06:03  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: also, narrow gauge engines often have very small wheels, so 5-coupled is not that much of a problem
15:06:36  <drac_boy> hmm yeah this tank locomotive in question's looked quite small
15:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> also, 5-coupled is rather late in the development of steam engines
15:07:52  <andythenorth> this baby likes crisps and black coffe
15:07:55  <andythenorth> he is 9mo
15:08:04  <drac_boy> here it is  and its actually a 2-10-2T but still point stands .. its long
15:08:44  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause well during the wartime german had some heavy express steam locomotives that were 5-coupled.  usa had a few but most of them were for flatlands or close due to curvation problems naturally
15:08:57  <drac_boy> don't ask me how UP managed to run 6-coupled's when they did at the time :p
15:09:11  <Terkhen> andythenorth: giving coffee to a baby sounds like a bad idea
15:09:18  <drac_boy> Terkhen heh I so agree
15:09:21  <andythenorth> it is
15:11:07  <__ln__> NGC3982:
15:11:29  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the above picture is 1000mm though
15:12:43  <drac_boy> heh lri
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15:13:40  <drac_boy> mm
15:14:21  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause either way heres something for you if you'll  and notice how its pretty much on the flatland where its chassis length isn't much issue after all
15:14:29  <drac_boy> crazy thing tho heh
15:15:58  <Pinkbeast> The 9Fs and WD 2-10-0s could go most places here...
15:16:11  <andythenorth>
15:16:32  <drac_boy> pinkbeast did you count the drive axles on that picture?
15:16:59  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: btw. the previous engine with legs instead of wheels: :)
15:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> err, wrong link
15:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause>
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15:18:40  <drac_boy> heh nice picture
15:23:35  <andythenorth> 2-14-4
15:24:41  <drac_boy> andythenorth aka the thing that split the yard switches .. and never ever really ran? :)
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15:48:29  <drac_boy> anyway going for lunch so
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15:50:03  <NGC3982> __ln__: :D
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16:03:44  <andythenorth> livestock trucks?
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16:06:13  <andythenorth> quak quak quak
16:06:25  <frosch123> moin :)
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16:24:12  <Elukka>
16:24:15  <Elukka> fly, brave kerbals
16:24:16  <Elukka> cockpits are nifty
16:24:48  <bolli> that KSP? :p
16:24:49  <NGC3982> What'zat.
16:25:42  <Elukka> yeah
16:25:44  <Elukka> kerbal space program
16:26:23  <Elukka> it's actually almost easier to do powered landings from the cockpit, as long as you make sure the terrain is good beforehand
16:26:30  <Elukka> you panic less when you can't see outside :P
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16:28:11  <Elukka> KSP is a fairly realistic space game
16:28:11  <NGC3982> Hehe, true.
16:28:43  <Elukka> it's not simulator-detailed but all the basics of rocketry and orbital mechanics are there and the way you, say, fly to the moon in KSP is indeed how you fly to the moon in real life
16:29:02  <NGC3982> Same amount of timespans, etc?
16:30:15  <Elukka> well, the planets are smaller but that's not particularly unrealistic :P
16:30:52  <NGC3982> ;)
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16:31:01  <Elukka> no, what i mean is you don't point your spacecraft at the moon and burn
16:31:04  <andythenorth> space shuttle interiors
16:31:56  <Elukka> you do a translunar injection burn at the right time (essentially getting you to an elliptical orbit around the planet that gets you close to the moon) and then a braking burn at closest approach to the moon to avoid being ejected into a solar orbit
16:32:56  <Elukka>
16:33:00  <Elukka> soyuz is a bit simpler, andy :P
16:33:34  <andythenorth> for any given cargo, at any given time, only two truck choices are needed?
16:33:37  <andythenorth> large / small?
16:35:58  <andythenorth> this coffee was best before May 2006
16:37:25  <planetmaker> andythenorth, absolutely. More choice is not needed
16:38:02  <planetmaker> I hope your coffee didn't become intelligent since 2006 :-P
16:38:05  <andythenorth> small = can use drive in stops
16:38:24  <andythenorth> large = articulated, n trailers (according to some limit, blah)
16:38:40  <planetmaker> kinda, yes
16:38:54  <planetmaker> it's about also what egrvts uses, afaik
16:39:07  <planetmaker> but I don't recall the amount of vehicles there for each cargo
16:39:15  <planetmaker> it feels more, but... dunno
16:45:29  <andythenorth> it feels too much
16:45:55  <andythenorth> yet if you have a train set like NARS 2 there are many more vehicles in the buy menu
16:47:37  <andythenorth> actually not :0
16:47:54  <andythenorth> egrvts buy menu > nars 2 menu
16:47:54  <andythenorth> :o
16:48:55  <andythenorth> if I had vehicle expiry on it might be different
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17:38:25  <Wolf01> evenink
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18:04:47  <LordAro> evenings all
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18:31:00  <Zuu> Hello all
18:31:08  <LordAro> hai here also :)
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20:18:12  <Zuu> Hmm, so AIController::Break have only been working on dedicated servers for 5 days, and noone have complained. :-)
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20:19:28  <Zuu> And I have even announced the feature on the forums. :-)
20:20:29  <frosch123> maybe they are used to scripts deadlocking on dedicated servers :p
20:20:45  <Zuu> :-p
20:21:38  <Alberth> or they watched the screen, but nothing happened :)
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20:40:55  <dada__> hmmm
20:41:16  <dada__> trying to compile openttd. liblzma requires that I give the configure script the path to liblzma.a, right?
20:41:36  <dada__> only it doesn't seem to want to eat the liblzma.a I'm pointing it to
20:42:27  <frosch123> can you install pkg-config ?
20:43:33  <dada__> pkg-config is available (on freebsd, but new to the system)
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20:47:21  <Alberth> I'd expect a .so file
20:47:28  <frosch123> anyway, i never understood why the configure help stuff talks about "=libsomething.a"
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20:47:40  <frosch123> it uses the parameter as command
20:47:44  <frosch123> so, it must be some script
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20:47:57  <frosch123> which can handle the same parameters as pkg-config
20:48:02  <dada__> doesn't seem to want to accept my /usr/lib/ either
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20:48:25  <frosch123> --with-lzma needs a script as parameter
20:48:34  <Alberth> just /usr/lib ?
20:48:34  <frosch123> which returns stuff according to its parameters
20:48:35  <dada__> ah
20:49:50  <frosch123> it should accept "--cflags", "--libs" and "--modversion"
20:52:12  <dada__> would you happen to know how it tries to detect liblzma? since it's installed, it seems weird I have to specify the dir at all
20:52:48  <frosch123> it runs the command passed via "--with-lzma" :p
20:52:56  <frosch123> or "pkg-config liblzma"
20:53:05  <dada__> aha
20:53:11  <dada__> pkg-config liblzma returns nothing apparently
20:53:22  <frosch123>  pkg-config liblzma --modversion
20:53:25  <frosch123>  pkg-config liblzma --libs
20:53:29  <frosch123> those should return stuff
20:53:47  <dada__> aha, it couldn't find anything
20:53:51  <dada__> it wants liblzma.pc
20:54:23  <Alberth> dada__: configure is just a script, you can read it in a text editor
20:54:25  <dada__> it seems I do have one. although not as a result of my compiling and installing liblzma. but I have one in a src subdir of an older openttd version (1.1.3)
20:55:34  <dada__> strangely enough, my $PKG_CONFIG_PATH seems empty
20:57:54  <Alberth> my pkg-config(1) speaks of a default path that is always searched
20:58:24  <Alberth> so perhaps your env var is only for adding/overriding, in which case being empty seems a sane value
20:59:22  <frosch123> dada__:
20:59:30  <dada__> seems configure is able to find my liblzma now :)
20:59:32  <frosch123> use that script, fill in the needed information
20:59:40  <frosch123> and pass that via --with-lzma
20:59:51  <frosch123> you can do the same with other libs
21:00:14  <dada__> frosch123: thanks! going to try seeing if what I have now works, otherwise I'll try this.
21:05:55  <dada__> ah, bsd makes and gnu makes are incompatible
21:05:58  <dada__> so use gmake
21:06:10  <dada__> seems it's compiling happily now
21:06:17  <Kjetil> use cmake :P
21:06:56  <dada__> too late ;)
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21:13:58  * Jake needs to research First Nations languages as part of the backstory for his OpenTTD scenario.
21:14:13  <Jake> It's official. I have too much free time.
21:14:51  <frosch123> antique railroad? :p
21:14:59  <Terkhen> send your spare time to me :P
21:15:01  <Terkhen> good night
21:15:34  <Jake> Nope. A throwaway gag about a name given to a local terrain feature.
21:16:44  <MNIM> do tell.
21:17:19  <frosch123> wait for the scenario :p
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21:20:05  <Jake> It's okay, it's not really a spoiler. The first Western settlers tried to find out the local name for a mountain by pointing at it and then looking expectant at a local. They duly recorded his reply phonetically, and it remained on the maps for two hundred years before anyone bothered to notice it meant, "It's a mountain, you idiot."
21:21:59  <Jake> Yes, it's a lame gag. But it made me smile.
21:24:41  <Jake> Actually, scrub that. I've got a better idea.
21:25:02  <frosch123> "it's a forest, you idiot"?
21:26:41  <Jake> That'd work too, I think it'd work better if the guide actually told them translations of the lyrics to a very rude song instead of the actual native names of the various terrain features.
21:29:04  <frosch123> night
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21:33:03  <Wolf01> 'night all
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21:41:47  <NGC3982>
21:41:53  <NGC3982> Of you can understand this..
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21:51:06  <Zuu> did you see the Danish bus comersial?
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