Log for #openttd on 23rd September 2013:
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04:35:05  <qwebirc31517> hello
04:39:35  <Supercheese> Salutations
04:41:44  <qwebirc31517> i was hoping for help, i dont know how to accept an invite in openttd.  My friend is trying to join my game and he said I have to click accept, but I do not know how
04:49:08  <Supercheese> I don't do multiplayer, sorry
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09:09:32  <kevin_> how do you get oil tankers to get oil from wells? whenever I try and click on refineries or wells when setting orders with a tanker it doesn't let me
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09:15:19  <blathijs> kevin_: You need to build docks near them. The oil will be delivered to the docks (possibly only after the first oil tanker has been there) and can be picked up by the tanker from the dock
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09:16:28  <kevin_> blathijs: docks for oil tanker trucks?
09:16:57  <blathijs> kevin_: You never mentioned "trucks" and in my vocabulary, an "Oil tanker" is a ship :-)
09:17:26  <kevin_> blathijs: oh hahahaah sorry
09:17:31  <blathijs> kevin_: But, you'll have to build a bus station then (but use the cargo variant, can't recall what its called. Loading dock or something)
09:17:39  <kevin_> okay gotcha
09:17:42  <blathijs> loading bay perhaps
09:18:02  <planetmaker> truck station
09:18:15  <planetmaker> but depends quite on selected language ;-)
09:18:29  <planetmaker> <blathijs> kevin_: You never mentioned "trucks" and in my vocabulary, an "Oil tanker" is a ship :-) <-- for me, too :-)
09:18:48  <kevin_> hahaha
09:19:44  <planetmaker> might help :-)
09:20:28  <kevin_> planetmaker: I saw that but I couldn't find anything on trucks
09:21:58  <planetmaker> but it teaches that vehicles need stations. whatever vehicle type
09:22:46  <kevin_> if I build the station near the refinery or well (like within the grid that says the area it serves) will the truck get the oil?
09:23:39  <planetmaker> well... it will tell you what the station can be provided with and what it does accept
09:23:46  <kevin_> okay, thanks
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09:23:53  <planetmaker> in the ...
09:24:15  <planetmaker> that was quick ;-)
09:31:45  <AndreasB> :D
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10:32:56  <LordAro> /o
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11:30:29  <AndreasB> o.O
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12:05:06  <AndreasB> TheMask96: Didnt know people that young played openttd
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12:33:32  <planetmaker> heya Bad_Brett :-)
12:33:42  <Bad_Brett> hey planetmaker :-)
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12:34:10  <LordAro> /o
12:34:19  <Bad_Brett> hey lordaro
12:34:48  <Bad_Brett> a nice day for some newgrf development
12:35:04  <planetmaker> the repo is still empty though :-(
12:35:55  <LordAro> planetmaker: the osx section of the todo list is outdated ;) ( for easy clicking)
12:36:13  <planetmaker> yes, that might actually be true
12:37:03  <planetmaker> actually and sadly ,so many todo lists are a bit outdated...
12:37:22  <LordAro> :(
12:37:30  <Bad_Brett> yeah, i got so frustrated last time that my entire push was rejected because of some thumbs.db files
12:37:32  <planetmaker> and patches provided to them... c/should get quicker review. As you might know yourself :-(
12:37:59  <LordAro> i can provide links if you're offering :p
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12:38:21  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, given that you said that you carefully review of what to add I'm surprised that you added those :-)
12:38:52  <planetmaker> yes, I could also disable that check temporarily
12:39:24  <Bad_Brett> i don't add them, they're added by the windows explorer... but on the other hand, i guess i can do a simple search and delete them before pushing
12:39:26  <planetmaker> but adding them to a repository is not a sane thing to do
12:39:35  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, *you* add them to the repository
12:39:39  <planetmaker> not every file needs be added
12:39:49  <planetmaker> you can for instance add the to the .hgignore
12:40:13  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, adding files to a repository needs more than their presence in the directories
12:40:29  <LordAro> doing "hg add *" is not usually a good idea :p
12:40:31  <planetmaker> it's something you explicitly tell your version control programme
12:40:46  <Eddi|zuHause> use "hg addremove"
12:41:01  <Bad_Brett> there's is no way that i can manually select the files, so i have to use something like hgignore
12:41:03  <planetmaker> ^ actually that's exactly what one IMHO shold NOT use
12:41:05  <Eddi|zuHause> make sure .hgignore is set properly
12:41:12  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, sure there is
12:41:29  <Bad_Brett> no, there isn't :-)
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12:42:10  <planetmaker>
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12:42:57  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, every vcs (I know) needs an explicit command which adds a file so that it starts becomming tracked by it
12:42:58  <alluke> is there anywhere template for ships?
12:43:46  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what i think he meant was: there are too many files to pick them one-by-one
12:43:53  <Bad_Brett> i may have 5000 new folders for a new push...
12:43:59  <Bad_Brett> and 50 000 files
12:44:17  <SpComb> doesn't sound like source code to me
12:44:21  <planetmaker> that's unhandy to do by hand :-)
12:44:33  <planetmaker> SpComb, of newgrfs?
12:44:38  <SpComb> if they're generated files, they shouldn't be in source control :)
12:44:46  <SpComb> do you edit those 50k files?
12:45:03  <Bad_Brett> define generated
12:45:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess they are rendered graphics
12:45:11  <planetmaker> it's a matter of how they're generated, SpComb
12:45:21  <Bad_Brett> most of them are childsprites and such
12:45:32  <Bad_Brett> very small images
12:45:34  <Japa_> For high zoom sprites that are still 8bpp, do they go into a newgrf normally?
12:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
12:45:55  <planetmaker> Japa_, 8bpp or 32bpp or zoomlevel: no difference. yes.
12:46:20  <Japa_> Oh, newgrfs can have 32bpp now?
12:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
12:46:36  <planetmaker> normally: depends. An author will need to provide them. I know only one NewGRF which provides 8bpp sprites for zoom levels larger than 1x
12:46:45  <Japa_> Ossum.
12:47:30  <Japa_> planetmaker, I was thinking of drawing some high zoom engines
12:47:40  <planetmaker> please do :-)
12:48:08  <Japa_> Though all the current indian electrics look pretty similar
12:48:25  <planetmaker> does it need to be 'realistic' in that sense?
12:48:28  <Pinkbeast> Form follows function, and all that. :-/
12:48:34  <Japa_> I
12:48:42  <Japa_> I'll probably differentiate them by color
12:48:46  <planetmaker> couldn't it simply be a train set with engines not from one country, but ... interesting engines for gameplay
12:48:49  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: What about CC?
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12:49:01  <Japa_> Pinkbeast, leave that to the wagons
12:49:18  <V453000> just imagine your own trains Japa_
12:49:19  <V453000> best approach
12:49:22  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: It's up to you, of course, but I think it is best to provide a toggle between CC and "realistic" liveries.
12:49:25  <V453000> you can always get inspiration from elsewhere, but ...
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12:49:40  <V453000> randomized colours can also have CC :)
12:49:53  <V453000> e.g. blue/red/green body with CC stripe
12:50:11  <Japa_> Yeah, true
12:50:14  <Japa_>
12:50:29  <Japa_> Here's the fastest indian engine, with the company colors on the pax wagons
12:51:05  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: I would expect the CC version of that to have primary colour where it is cream and secondary colour on the stripe.
12:51:16  <SpComb> draw a Electric-steam locomotive
12:51:28  <Japa_> Making more then one color option is really not hard
12:51:34  <Japa_> just replace values
12:51:57  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, anyway, if it helps you, I de-activate that 'bad files' filter for the first push. But permanently, rather not
12:52:51  <planetmaker> though it might be not too difficult to simply copy the current dir to a new one. add the thumbs file to hgignore and add the rest and push that
12:53:39  <Bad_Brett> thanks, planetmaker. i will try again tonight. and yes, it might be wise for me to learn the hgignore thing
12:53:59  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, add to it all files which are
12:54:03  <planetmaker> *generated
12:54:10  <planetmaker> *backup files from programmes you use
12:54:10  <alluke> i dont think company colors suit trains if you want to make them as realistic as possible
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12:54:21  <Bad_Brett> yeah... and the python files
12:54:33  <alluke> for some road vehicles and ships they work
12:54:37  <planetmaker> (like *.txt~ *.bak etc)
12:54:49  <planetmaker> why python files? Only the compiled ones
12:54:56  <planetmaker> *.py is no problem. *.pyc is :-)
12:55:20  <V453000> I dont think making trains realistic as possible will lead in any interesting new train sets which differ from the majority
12:55:23  <Bad_Brett> i was thinking about the nml compiler which also is located in my folder
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12:55:41  <planetmaker> err. do NOT add that
12:55:45  <Bad_Brett> :-)
12:56:31  <planetmaker> make nml available in your path so that you have a completely separate dir for it.
12:56:56  <planetmaker> and that you can call nmlc from anywhere
12:57:03  <Bad_Brett> yeah, i will do something like that
12:57:16  <Bad_Brett> i have a pretty good structure now
12:57:21  <planetmaker> seems that NML needs an installer ;-)
12:57:24  <alluke> V: i think theyll differ way more than if they all had same colors
12:57:28  <Bad_Brett> so that won't be a problem
12:57:38  <alluke> more colors = more variety
12:57:40  <V453000> I didnt talk about difference in one engine
12:57:54  <V453000> different train set = difference in gameplay
12:58:02  <Dozer|> planetmaker I'm taking a look at this entire list of different NewGRF files, and it looks relatively simple. I'm just curious, if I add train sets from fx both Hungary and Sweden, can they coexist, or will they create problems for eachother?
12:58:05  <V453000> is what it should be
12:58:11  <alluke> yes
12:58:15  <V453000> just copying real trains wont lead in anything new
12:58:31  <V453000> both visually and functionally
12:58:39  <planetmaker> Dozer, depends a bit on trainset. Usually it's no problem. It's only if the set author considers it one and makes it a problem ;-)
12:59:07  <Dozer|> ah :D
12:59:44  <alluke> but coloring them all with same color and changing the specs does?
12:59:58  <Dozer|> planetmaker also, with stuff like stations, will I be able to choose from the different types, if enabled, or should I only have 1 type enabled at that point?
13:00:19  <V453000> idk what are you trying to say by that alluke
13:00:20  <Bad_Brett> by the way... it should be added to the nml wiki that, if you intend to use childsprites, all 4x zoom sprites and their offsets MUST be divisible by _32_, unless you want severe headache ;-)
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13:01:15  <V453000> I basically said a reason of "realistic as possible" is not quite a good one for making a train set - while random colours can look nice especially if enhanced by CCs
13:01:48  <alluke> that it leads in something new visually and functionally?
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13:03:46  <V453000> I said the opposite? if you copy real trains, it leads to nothing new?
13:04:46  <alluke> yes
13:05:35  <V453000> -> ?
13:08:38  <alluke> if you dont copy the real trains, but paint them in 2cc instead, it leads to something new?
13:09:34  <V453000> certainly more new than copying every detail?
13:09:36  <Japa_> If you have all locos painted with company colors, they can look boring
13:09:42  <alluke> exactly
13:09:45  <V453000> also the copying of visual appearance generally means to copying stats too
13:09:45  <Japa_> That is, they all will be the same color.
13:10:05  <Japa_> If you give each loco a different color sceme, they stand out from each other
13:10:06  <V453000> which is why I suggest make random colour, with CC stripe for example
13:10:06  <alluke> dont think so,
13:10:24  <Japa_> V453000, I like that idea
13:10:28  <alluke> pikka copied the appearance in his ukrs2 set, but threw the capacities from head
13:10:46  <V453000> true pikka does it somewhat differently
13:10:51  <V453000> at least a little bit
13:11:10  <Japa_> Which sets have more than one passenger type?
13:11:27  <alluke> tourists you say?
13:11:54  <alluke> and rainbow-colors make 0 sense outside toyland
13:12:00  <juzza1> ECS Town Vector
13:12:13  <Japa_> ECS had tourists, yes
13:12:23  <Japa_> I guess that works for what I was thinking of
13:12:29  <alluke> juzza1, when will fts get tourist support?
13:12:35  <juzza1> yesterday
13:12:39  <Japa_> Tourist wagons and pax wagons looking different
13:13:01  <Japa_> Mainly with tourist wagons being what in reality are the air conditioned coaches
13:13:13  <Japa_> and then the non-ac ones being regular pax.
13:13:20  <Japa_> main difference is the windows
13:14:43  <V453000> I dont think colours need to make sense, they need to look nice
13:15:12  <juzza1> not sure if many use the ECS sets nowadays. I recommend adding the tourist livery as a refit/random livery for the normal pax coach
13:15:45  <alluke> me too
13:16:20  <alluke> and rainbow-trains dont look nice outside toyland
13:16:28  <V453000> I beg to differ
13:17:03  <V453000> colours are always nice, especially in city networks
13:17:25  <V453000> its not like the whole train has to be coloured that way, it can be just parts
13:18:00  <alluke> exactly
13:18:21  <alluke> i can have trains with red, blue, and green coaches at same time
13:20:48  <Japa_> Hm...
13:21:06  <Belugas> hello
13:21:39  <Japa_> I wonder how I can represent in-game the local trains we have here that carry far more passengers than the express ones, but have a much lower ticket price
13:22:10  <alluke> ottd has no ticket prices
13:22:10  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: To a first approximation you can't, because payment rates are controlled by other factors.
13:22:24  <Japa_> Yeah
13:22:33  <Japa_> I'll probably just put them at a far lower speed
13:22:35  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: But since a primary factor is speed, if they are slow, they will also not earn much cash.
13:22:51  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: They could also then be cheap to run.
13:23:06  <Japa_> These are EMUs
13:23:20  <NGC3982> Afternoon.
13:23:29  <alluke> local trains are usually slower but have bigger capacity
13:23:49  <alluke> making them more useful for highly populated routes with many stops
13:24:30  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: But... a player who's playing for gameplay will almost always use the fastest thing possible. A simulationist player will use a mix of local and express stock as long as the stats make it possible, even if just using express would be more economic. So in a sense it doesn't matter too much.
13:24:44  <Japa_> Right, right.
13:25:08  <Japa_> Though, with my experience with cargodist, local trains are sorely needed for gameplay
13:25:41  <Japa_> I'll probably just do something similar to the metro trains in the 2cc set, but using the same tracks
13:25:46  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: Also, you wrote "If you have all locos painted with company colors, they can look boring" but it seems to me that if someone flips a toggle in a newgrf marked "CC vs realistic colours", they are saying that is what they would like, and don't try and second-guess them.
13:26:23  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: Ah. I was going to say "stopping services, yes, but it still makes sense to use express stock", but 2cc does a neat job there with differentiated loading times.
13:26:33  <Japa_> Yeah, I've decided I'll do company colors for now
13:27:11  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: I think the only sensible alternative is a 3-way "really just CC / a bit of CC here and there / realistic" toggle
13:27:18  <Japa_> Though different engines will may have the primary and secondary colors swapped
13:28:25  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: Again... I wouldn't. If I turn on 2CC, I expect the primary colour will be primary and etc etc
13:28:59  <Japa_>
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13:34:20  <alluke> japa: bad decision
13:34:34  <Japa_> Fair enough
13:34:43  <Japa_> I'll keep that for the realistic color option
13:34:50  <alluke> ok
13:34:55  <Belugas> grrrrrr...
13:35:01  <Japa_> Which I'll most likely skip because I never really use newgrf options
13:35:12  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: Well, I do think there's room for a "middle" option, where one of those would be primary CC with a white stripe and one white with a primary CC stripe
13:35:46  <Pinkbeast> ... like the way freight locos are black lined with CC in UKRS2, or the way modern British locos might be 2CC with a yellow nose
13:36:10  <alluke> us set has mainly relistic liveries, but some engines have some little detail in 2cc
13:36:28  <alluke> stripe for example
13:43:16  <V453000> a player who's playing for gameplay will almost always use the fastest thing possible <---- wrong :)
13:43:33  <alluke> yes
13:44:11  <V453000> people are just used to the fact that usually realistic train sets have the fastest train also strongest
13:44:38  <V453000> typically 2cc or dutch trains for example
13:44:39  <alluke> i use 50 kmh shunters for some routes where i could use 140 kmh mainline rockets but i dont want to
13:44:44  <Pinkbeast> V453000: Yes, yes, NUTS advocacy aside
13:44:59  <V453000> I didnt mention nuts yet? :)
13:45:21  <Pinkbeast> V453000: I know, and now I've spared you from getting to it. :-/
13:46:05  <Pinkbeast> OTTD does strongly incentivise the use of fast trains - not just by payments but by network availability - and it's no surprise that people tend to use them.
13:46:31  <Pinkbeast> And yeah, short of pax vs. freight, any semi-realistic set is generally going to have fast=~powerful
13:46:49  <V453000> I dont see how does openttd suggest to use fast trains except station ratings and payments
13:46:56  <V453000> if you dont have good acceleration, you get jams
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13:47:34  <Pinkbeast> V453000: For a given capacity per train and overall transport capacity, slower trains means more trains.
13:47:36  <V453000> obviously people use the fastest trains if they are also strongest, why would they do otherwise, would make no sense
13:47:54  <Pinkbeast> V453000: Er... yes, that is obvious, that's sort of my point
13:47:57  <V453000> code slower trains with more capacity?
13:49:02  <V453000> also, if faster trains jam, they wont have as high transportation power as stronger trains will
13:49:09  <Pinkbeast> V453000: Yes, clearly that would change matters. But it's not how OTTD sets typically are (aside from pax vs freight engines)
13:49:53  <V453000> -> ottd sets typically are bad?
13:50:18  <Pinkbeast> V453000: I think that depends on what you want them to do, and no, I don't think they are at all.
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13:51:10  <Pinkbeast> I think it's more that OTTD's payment model, time and distance "scales", etc do not make it viable to run (say) a slow branch line service with cheap locomotives. (Track newGRFs with speed limits help a bit there, I suppose, but run into the "money is unlimited" problem)
13:51:15  <V453000> I want them to make any sense when choosing vehicles
13:51:23  <V453000> money is irrelevant in game logic
13:53:20  <Japa_> I'm gonna go ahead and assume it's a good idea to have an existing 4x zoom passenger carriage to draw my engine in front of, to make sure it kinda fits
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13:53:57  <V453000> 1x is enough :)
13:53:58  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: A useful thing Pikka did for UKRS2 (and other people do) is to start with a rougly loading gauge size box
13:54:22  <DanMacK> Working on a train set Japa?
13:54:48  <Japa_> DanMacK, I'm starting with one engine, for now. Then I'll see what happens.
13:55:07  <DanMacK> Cool
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13:55:29  <Japa_> Pinkbeast, how you mean?
13:55:38  <DanMacK> Haven't gotten into the coding side if things
13:55:55  <DanMacK> Pikka has templates for various sizes as well as offsets
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13:58:30  <DanMacK> what loco are you doing?
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13:59:48  <Japa_> Indian high speed passenger electric
13:59:50  <Pinkbeast> Japa_: Suppose you had a rectangular box - not solid - just the edges - resting on the railway line, so big that any carriage or locomotive would fit into it. Draw that, and now you have a guide to the overall lines of a sprite.
14:00:17  <Japa_> Pinkbeast, I have that already. Just wondering if I should have wheels on there, and what size they should be, etc
14:00:42  <DanMacK> Japa, you have the sprites?
14:01:02  <Japa_> DanMacK, not yet, I'm just starting to draw them
14:01:25  <DanMacK> OK, what loco are you doing?  I have a bit of spriting experience and can give suggestions :P
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14:03:36  <Japa_>
14:03:38  <Japa_> This guy
14:04:18  <DanMacK> 2px for wheels
14:04:54  <Japa_> I'll translate that to 8 because I'm doing a 4x zoom sprite
14:05:03  <DanMacK> ahhh, yeah
14:05:07  <Japa_> though maybe I should draw a smaller zoom first
14:05:22  <DanMacK> might be easier to draw large then resize
14:05:22  <Japa_> Yeah, I'll do that
14:05:41  <Japa_> Well, if I draw small first, then I can resize it up and add detail
14:05:48  <DanMacK> never done larger ones, I've just done 1X mostly
14:05:52  <Japa_> smaller is less pixels to deal with
14:05:58  <DanMacK> it is
14:06:16  <DanMacK> but it's also a pain to change everything and detail when its sized up
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14:06:31  <DanMacK> I've tried sizing up
14:08:12  <Japa_> I'll do this one small first, then try the next one different
14:08:16  <Japa_> and compare
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14:21:44  <Japa_>
14:21:59  <Japa_> Hmm... getting the overal shape is kinda hard here
14:23:32  <DanMacK> hmmm
14:24:06  <Japa_> Am I on the right track, though?
14:25:52  <DanMacK> yeah
14:26:06  <DanMacK> I'd add a pixel on the end to reduce the slope
14:27:02  <DanMacK> bbiab
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14:38:51  <Japa_>
14:39:06  <Japa_> How does this look so far?
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15:01:24  <alluke> juzza1: is pendolino 35% faster in curves than other trains?
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15:05:10  <planetmaker> Dozer, there's no general rule on what newgrfs you can combine successfully
15:05:31  <planetmaker> if there's one rule, it is that you can only have one industry newgrf (as they usually define cargos)
15:05:34  <V453000> black magix of experience and trying
15:06:11  <planetmaker> but there are exceptions where NewGRFs do more than what their name suggests - and that can have side effects, leading to incompatibility with other things
15:06:47  <planetmaker> like trainsets defining a "regearing cargo". Or house sets defining industries.
15:07:10  <planetmaker> Or simply malicious authors which will disable their set or others if they find NewGRFs which they don't like
15:07:23  <planetmaker> we have those, too ;-)
15:07:44  <juzza1> alluke: yes, they have the tilt bonus
15:08:37  <planetmaker> iirc openttd's tilt bonus is 20%
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15:10:05  <alluke> cant that be adjusted?
15:15:10  <planetmaker> no
15:15:16  <planetmaker> well. yes.
15:15:21  <planetmaker> change source code ;-)
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15:18:38  <DanMacK> pm, you're not referring to OzTrans are you?  lol
15:20:04  <alluke> is there boat drawing templates anywhere?
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15:21:54  <alluke> id like to try drawing one boat
15:21:57  <DanMacK> Use the FISH ones
15:22:01  <alluke> about 10 meters long
15:22:21  <alluke> danmack: where are those?
15:23:15  <DanMacK> FISH repository
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15:31:59  <alluke> danmack: whats the exact path? cant find any from graphics_sources or src/templates
15:33:39  <DanMacK>
15:34:32  <DanMacK> 10m?  What's the boat you want to draw?
15:36:12  <alluke> little boat that carries passengers between island and city
15:36:27  <alluke>
15:37:15  <alluke> log tug seems to be about same size
15:41:30  <DanMacK> Probably the harbour point utility ship
15:56:07  <DanMacK> 27 pass capacity, seems to be just right for that
15:57:54  <Dozer> planetmaker thank you for the wise words! :)
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15:59:43  <Jap-mobile> Oh god dammit. I was idling in #ottd and never noticed it was empty.
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16:13:20  <alluke> hmm
16:13:44  <alluke> how should i draw the roof shape
16:21:37  <Jap-mobile> What do you got so far?
16:24:47  <alluke> that
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16:25:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the / view looks somewhat flat
16:26:04  <alluke> yeah
16:26:14  <alluke> the shape is hard to do
16:26:24  <Eddi|zuHause> should remove some pixels at the bottom and add some at the top
16:27:04  <alluke> well, the lower edges of the roof are straight
16:27:09  <alluke> only upper is curved
16:27:25  <alluke> forgot to do that in I -view
16:28:54  <Jap-mobile> alluke: the lines far edges of the roof should be half the width
16:29:28  <Jap-mobile> /
16:29:41  <Jap-mobile> in that view
16:29:48  <alluke> ill try
16:31:01  <Jap-mobile> Basically, the part of the roof sloping away from the viewer needs to appear narrower than the one facing head-on
16:35:40  <Jap-mobile> I posted an engine earlier that shows what I'm talking about, but I don't have the link anymore Cus I'm not at my computer.
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16:36:17  <alluke> how does that look?
16:36:19  <alluke> link is same
16:38:57  <Jap-mobile> Quite a bit better, though now the topmost portion of each orange piece looks oddly flat
16:39:04  <alluke> yeah
16:39:07  <alluke> caught my eye too
16:39:38  <Jap-mobile> Which is fine if they're more dome-like than they look in the I view.
16:39:59  <Jap-mobile> They look like tarps billowing in the wind.
16:40:31  <alluke> actually, they are tarp
16:41:30  <Jap-mobile> Yeah, but that's quite a bit more stiff than the sprite looks
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16:58:16  <Japa> What's the quickest way to see my sprite ingame?
16:58:34  <Japa> Assume I care not about any stats or whatnot
16:59:03  <alluke> photoshop :P
16:59:56  <DanMacK> heh
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17:00:41  <planetmaker> Japa, that highly depends on what tools you're acustomed with, what you have available etc
17:01:01  <Japa> I've never done it before, so have no tools
17:01:03  <planetmaker> personally I'd clone a similar project and hack my sprites into it
17:01:39  <planetmaker> then "quick" might be relative, depending on how accustomed you're to programming
17:01:47  <Bad_Brett> wouldn't it be quicker do code a really basic newgrf?
17:02:03  <DanMacK> or ask somebody that knows how to do it :P
17:02:16  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, why? If I can take an existing vehicle NewGRF and just replace some sprites there? It's easy :-)
17:02:27  <planetmaker> (or house or industry or new object, whatever)
17:02:57  <planetmaker> other than that, a very basic newgrf is:
17:03:10  <planetmaker> you can nearly be not more basic :-)
17:03:14  <planetmaker> well, slightly
17:03:33  <planetmaker> one can skip the preprocessor stuff :D
17:03:47  *** jjavaholic [] has joined #openttd
17:04:35  <Bad_Brett> i think the nml tutorial is a good start though
17:05:08  <planetmaker> might help, too
17:05:25  <planetmaker> and yes, the NML tutorial at
17:06:06  <planetmaker> it may all look very complicated if you've never done something like this, Japa
17:06:17  <planetmaker> but... it looks more complicated than it really is :-)
17:06:30  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
17:06:49  <Bad_Brett> i don't know... this stuff is actually quite complicated :-P
17:06:51  <Japa> I've worked on a program that reads the memory of a closed source game and displays a map of the current level in isometric tiles.
17:06:55  <Bad_Brett> at least in my opinion
17:06:58  <Japa> I think I can handle it
17:07:05  <planetmaker> good :-)
17:07:29  <planetmaker> don't be shy to ask, Japa
17:07:56  * DanMacK doesn't touch coding... lol
17:08:16  <Bad_Brett> oh, i have a question for planetmaker! :-D
17:08:25  <planetmaker> but you managed to get commit access, DanMacK :-)
17:08:47  <Bad_Brett> how many ticks is house tile loop?
17:08:49  <planetmaker> and often newgrfs without graphics... are well... :-)
17:08:59  <planetmaker> lol. dunno
17:09:05  <Bad_Brett> damn :P
17:09:11  <planetmaker> tile loop
17:09:14  <planetmaker> once per tick
17:09:30  *** tmsft [~id@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:09:49  <Bad_Brett> in that case re-randomizing should happen all the time, right?
17:09:54  <Bad_Brett> i must have messed up then
17:10:11  <planetmaker> dunno
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17:11:37  <planetmaker> not actually sure that house tiles are ever re-randomized. Why should they?
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17:12:35  <Bad_Brett> let's say i have 10 different sound effects and want to creat an irregular pattern
17:12:40  <Bad_Brett> *create
17:13:08  <planetmaker> I don't see that house random bits are ever re-randomized
17:13:12  <planetmaker> once the house is built
17:13:19  <planetmaker> is there such callback?
17:13:48  <DanMacK> true
17:15:10  <Eddi|zuHause> tile loop is every 256 ticks
17:15:35  <Bad_Brett> just like industry tiles then
17:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:16:14  <Eddi|zuHause> and grass growth, and fence placement, and ...
17:17:13  <Bad_Brett>
17:17:28  <Bad_Brett> it should work for houses
17:17:34  <Bad_Brett> according to that page
17:18:48  <Bad_Brett> i've tried to call both the anim_control and the anim_next_frame callbacks with the random_switch, but re-randomizing only seems to happen from time to time
17:18:53  <Eddi|zuHause> note that "triggers" don't work in callbacks
17:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> triggers are evaluated in some undocumented "CB 1", which means usually only the default chain is evaluated, and all triggers outside this chain are ignored
17:20:20  <Bad_Brett> hmm
17:20:31  <Japa> Do road and rail vehicles have the same length?
17:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:20:45  <Pinkbeast> Japa: That depends on the vehicle
17:21:11  <Japa> Pinkbeast, in the sense of slapping my engine sprite on a road vehicle
17:21:25  <Bad_Brett> in that case, it's not possible to add random sound effects to a callback?
17:21:43  <Pinkbeast> Japa: If you mean "are they in the same scale", that also depends, but I would try for it if possible.
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17:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: the random switch works, just it won't rerandomize
17:22:08  <Bad_Brett> yeah... just as i expected then
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17:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you need a second random switch for the rerandomization
17:22:27  <Bad_Brett> because the pattern is random in the beginning, but when the animation loops, so does the pattern
17:22:30  <Japa> How worried should I be that somebody else might share my initials?
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17:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Japa: we have a list of all GRFIDs that ever appeared on a multiplayer server
17:23:30  <Japa> link?
17:23:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure planetmaker has that bookmarked :)
17:24:04  <planetmaker> Japa, I'd not be worried. There are about 2**32 grfIDs. we have maybe a few hundret distinct newgrfs
17:24:20  <Japa> Okay
17:24:24  <Bad_Brett> Eddi: should i call that switch directly from the random_trigger callback?
17:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: that sounds right
17:25:00  <Bad_Brett> instead of calling my anim_control switch
17:25:08  <Bad_Brett> okay, thanks, i'll try that
17:25:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you can call the same switch from both callbacks
17:26:02  <Japa> Can repositories in the devzone be downloaded as a single package, or are my options either downloading file by file, or installing mercurial?
17:26:32  * Japa has no desire to install mercurial if he doesn't have to
17:26:56  <Eddi|zuHause> you should really use mercurial, but i have no clue about your original question
17:27:02  <planetmaker> I would highly recommend to install that, though, Japa
17:27:19  <planetmaker> once accustomed to version control you'll not want to miss it
17:27:44  <Japa> Oh, it's not that.
17:27:58  <Japa> I just don't want to install a version control that's not gir.
17:28:00  <Japa> git
17:28:15  <planetmaker> lol
17:28:40  <frosch123> Japa:
17:28:45  <Japa> My laptop is already running low on space and is slow as all hell
17:28:51  <planetmaker> the bundle server has often source bundles of packages
17:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Japa: well i'm fairly sure you can use git
17:29:59  <planetmaker> Japa, the hg install is certainly not bigger than an average newgrf repository ;-)
17:30:51  <Japa> I'll install it once I need to start sharing stuff or contributing in general.
17:30:51  <planetmaker>
17:31:12  <planetmaker> might be useful, too
17:31:35  <planetmaker> hm, I wonder why redmine misses that "download repo as <whatever>" button
17:33:04  * Japa facepalms
17:33:09  <Japa> I already had HG installed
17:33:15  <planetmaker> lol
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17:36:17  <longtomjr> HEy guys.. how do you know how much wagons you can put to a locomotive
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17:36:40  <planetmaker> you can attach as many till you hit the allowed train length
17:36:41  <Rubidium> 16*64-1?
17:36:43  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: That depends on the locomotive, the weight of the loaded wagons, the terrain...
17:36:58  <planetmaker> the speed reached with max wagons is another question
17:37:04  <planetmaker> try what works for you
17:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> maximum train length is 64 tiles
17:37:39  <Eddi|zuHause> with the default vehicle length that makes 1 engine and 127 wagons, with shorter wagons you can add more
17:37:54  <longtomjr> How many wagons will not affect the top speed on flat land per 500hp
17:37:58  <Rubidium> as I said, roughly 16*64-1
17:38:13  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: That depends on the wagons.
17:38:16  <Eddi|zuHause> 500hp is not a lot
17:38:38  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it depends on the acceleration model
17:38:38  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: There is (alas) no facility to estimate the speed of a train as there is in other railway games, short of experimentation.
17:38:41  <longtomjr> Yep I know... How much hp does one wagon use
17:38:49  * Rubidium assumes top speed of 1, wagon weight of 0, drag of 0, wagon capacity of 0, then... I guess it can be done ;)
17:38:49  <Japa>
17:38:52  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: That depends on the wagons.
17:38:54  <Japa> So here's my sprite so far
17:39:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Japa: i think the front looks too steep
17:39:35  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg
17:39:40  <Japa> It's supposed to be a little steep
17:39:52  <Japa> but I'm not sure how to make it less steep and not flat
17:40:53  <longtomjr> oh ok,,,  Is there a sum to do that you can determan how many hp is used for one ton..
17:40:54  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: Also (generally speaking) a train with _just_ enough power to reach maximum speed will accelerate agonisingly.
17:41:29  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: No, because on the flat the factor informing steady speed is air drag not weight.
17:42:17  <longtomjr> yep I know... I am just searching for a nice ecuation to work with...
17:42:27  <longtomjr> *equation
17:42:32  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: It would never be HP/ton.
17:43:04  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: It's going to be a lot easier to create a new game, cheat yourself a pile of money, and experiment.
17:43:19  <longtomjr> Ok... I guess
17:43:35  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: I would _like_ it if OTTD would provide an estimate of loaded speed in various terrain when assembling a train, but it doesn't.
17:43:39  <planetmaker> also air drag coefficient of engine. slope steepness play a role. rolling friction coefficient of rail type
17:44:11  <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Slope steepness does not play a role; "on flat land". :-)
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17:44:29  <planetmaker> yes. But there's rarely any rail route ingame which is perfectly flat. At least in my games
17:45:06  <planetmaker> and then there's newgrf strangeness... powered wagons, wagon speed limits, ...
17:45:21  <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Indeed, but that was the question that was asked (and it's quite practical to flatten a route once money becomes a non-issue...)
17:45:41  <planetmaker> I disagree
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17:45:56  <planetmaker> Just buy appropriate engines for the trains :-)
17:46:12  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25796 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2013-09-23 17:45:58 UTC)
17:46:13  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:14  <DorpsGek> croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:15  <DorpsGek> english_US - 53 changes by Supercheese
17:46:16  <DorpsGek> finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:46:17  <DorpsGek> german - 2 changes by Jogio
17:46:18  <DorpsGek> indonesian - 2 changes by UseYourIllusion
17:46:19  <DorpsGek> italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
17:46:20  <DorpsGek> slovak - 2 changes by Milsa
17:46:23  <planetmaker> and build such that corners don't slow down the train needlessly
17:46:26  <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: I don't see that you can disagree with either part of that. The question was "on flat land", that is a simple fact, and it is in fact practical to flatten terrain once money is unlimited.
17:46:35  <planetmaker> *sigh*
17:46:53  <planetmaker> and it's indeed not practical, Pinkbeast
17:47:34  <planetmaker> not even necessarily feasible
17:48:32  <Pinkbeast> I've *played* the sort of silly game where every train goes producer-consumer with no height transitions except those inherent in the positions of the industries (and even then you can position the stations up and down a bit), so...
17:49:11  <planetmaker> yes. Those people also never build diagonal rail lines. Just square pattern with 45° corners
17:49:17  <planetmaker> Disgusting as hell. Nor practical
17:49:27  <planetmaker> As any decently configured train will not mind a single slope
17:50:06  <Pinkbeast> I certainly had diagonal lines in those games and I don't think "practical" means what you think it means. It's not the same as optimal or most aesthetically pleasing.
17:51:36  <longtomjr> Hey guys... How can you edit one locomotive and carraige to have 1000 hp and 10t
17:53:03  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: (but why?)
17:53:04  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, I think "practical" in this way means "most easy to build". And that to me is simply dragging the rails. without terraforming
17:53:11  <planetmaker> and that works surprisingly well.
17:53:22  <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: No, that is more akin to "optimal".
17:53:22  <planetmaker> just build the trains to be able to climb
17:54:16  <Pinkbeast> Practical means more "not excessively difficult". If I want to get in the house, it's optimal to go in the front door, it's practical to go in the back door, and it's impractical to climb in the bedroom window.
17:54:44  <planetmaker> ok. In your idea "not excessively difficult": it's easier to terraform + build than just build? Strange...
17:54:57  <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Again you're speaking what is optimal.
17:55:02  <planetmaker> no
17:55:14  <planetmaker> I'm talking about the easiest way to build
17:55:18  <Pinkbeast> It certainly is _easier_ to just build, but it is not difficulty to terraform.
17:55:20  <longtomjr> I want to do it to work out the equation meself.. lol
17:55:21  <planetmaker> and that is to just lay tracks
17:55:21  <Pinkbeast> *difficult.
17:55:33  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: Start from the source code?
17:55:40  <planetmaker> longtomjr, then checkout the equations in the source code
17:55:57  <planetmaker> reverse engineering it by observation will be impossible
17:56:18  <Pinkbeast> The easiest option is not the only practical option. It is practical to make my stations look pretty with station sets.
17:57:16  <longtomjr> I cant read source...
17:57:26  <longtomjr> I only know python... And a bit of bash
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17:58:30  <Pinkbeast> Then I'm afraid you're a bit stuck. (As planetmaker and I note, the theoretical maximum speed on the flat is rarely a useful thing to know).
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18:00:19  <planetmaker> so you can't follow an equation in English when you're a French native speaker?
18:00:59  <longtomjr> Yep... But with that info you will be able to be used to calculate your route time...
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18:01:12  <longtomjr> and with how many wagons,\
18:01:39  <planetmaker> wagons weigh differently... and differently again with cargo. Depending on how much they carry and what cargo they carry
18:01:53  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: No, you won't (even on a completely flat railway) because of acceleration times.
18:01:56  <longtomjr> But the problem is finding where the equation is in the 3mil line french mathematics manual
18:02:07  <Pinkbeast> ... and then tractive effort rears its ugly head
18:02:15  <planetmaker> ^
18:02:44  <Pinkbeast> I'm looking at you, UKRS2 4-2-0 Crampton.
18:02:48  <longtomjr> yep... But you will be able to calculate that to if you have the numbers
18:03:00  <longtomjr> What is tractive effort
18:03:24  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: A measure of the amount of force the locomotive can bring to bear.
18:03:36  <planetmaker> for instance the curve looks like:
18:04:10  <planetmaker> and yes, OpenTTD *does* model that
18:04:23  <planetmaker> even though length units and time units are... game-adopted
18:05:02  <longtomjr> oh yes... But whit a very complicated equation you will be able to  calculate everything...
18:05:03  <Pinkbeast> This is what (besides maximum speeds) divides pax and freight locomotives; an express pax locomotive may have high power, but its low tractive effort means it can't accelerate heavy loads from a stop.
18:05:27  <longtomjr> Then you can write a little script and then you can play the most effective way
18:06:19  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: There isn't really a "most effective" way. A more powerful locomotive (with no worse T.E.) will always run around a given route a _bit_ faster.
18:07:34  <longtomjr> lol... I think I am kicking a dead horse here... but it would have been nice if there was a calculator for that
18:08:18  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: In most sets with wagon and loco speed limits, the theoretical maximum speed for a practical consist is well above the speed limit of some component part.
18:08:38  <planetmaker> longtomjr, ground_vehicle.cpp:105
18:10:10  <V453000> XD
18:10:53  <planetmaker>
18:11:17  <Pinkbeast> longtomjr: What I mean is that if I take (say) a and tack steel open wagons from the same set (max speed 50mph) on the back...
18:11:48  <Pinkbeast> ... at the point the train's maximum flat speed gets down to 50mph, it's already unfeasibly huge, can't go up hills, and accelerates like a dog.
18:17:06  <michi_cc> Bad_Brett: If you want to use rerandomized together with callbacks in NML, you need to make a second, duplicate random switch, which 1) is called in the default (graphics) section, 2) branches to the same next switch/spriteset on all choices, and 3) is declared as dependent on the real random switch (to make sure it uses the same bits).
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18:34:18  <AndreasB> Are there any way to replace old vehicle with same type auto?
18:34:36  <AndreasB> is there*
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18:37:15  <planetmaker> yes. It's called "autorenew"
18:37:24  <planetmaker> and only works as long as you can still buy the vehicle
18:41:01  <AndreasB> how do I turn that on?
18:42:01  <Pinkbeast> AndreasB: IIRC there's a money threshold below which it won't happen.
18:43:05  <AndreasB> 16 million enough?
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18:44:31  <AndreasB> ps. I am in multiplayter
18:45:09  <Pinkbeast> AndreasB: OK, whatever the issue is, it's not cash. ISTR the default threshold is L100,000
18:45:38  <planetmaker> read wiki
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18:46:30  <AndreasB> I fixed it another eway
18:46:33  <AndreasB> I downgraded
18:46:42  <AndreasB> next year or year after I upgrade again
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18:50:17  <Japa> How do I figure out what tractive effort to put?
18:51:34  <planetmaker> whatever seems sensible to you :-)
18:51:45  <planetmaker> 250kN is a strong and heavy engine
18:52:24  <Japa> nevermind, I forgot to RTFM
18:52:54  <Japa> where it says that it's set as a fraction of weight, and that rail has 0.3 as a good value
18:53:12  <planetmaker> that's the tractive effort coefficient. yes
18:57:26  <Wolf01> o/
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19:03:12  <Japa>
19:03:14  <Japa> Hm...
19:03:18  <Japa> Too light?
19:07:08  <Pinkbeast> Japa: I assume like ~all modern equipment all the weight of the loco does rest on the driving wheels
19:07:31  <Japa> Pinkbeast, I mean lightly colored
19:07:48  <Pinkbeast> Japa: I'm just checking about tractive effort first.
19:08:35  <Wolf01> ò_O there's something strange in this picture
19:11:25  <Taede> nicely done
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19:12:06  <longtomjr> HEy guys... Any good guides to station building and signaling?
19:12:29  <V453000>
19:16:27  <Japa> I have no idea how I'm gonna do these windows
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19:24:03  <Bad_Brett> looks like a swedish engine
19:26:11  <Japa> got the front windows looking a little better,I think
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19:37:03  <Yuyuimg> hi
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19:39:50  <Yuyuimg> hi
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19:45:02  <Yuyuimg> hi
19:46:59  <__ln__> again?
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20:03:19  <Yuyuimg> hi
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20:10:10  <andythenorth> he's friendly
20:10:17  <andythenorth> nobody said hi back :(
20:11:40  <__ln__> we need to increase funding for the greetings department
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20:16:02  <andythenorth> get the bot to do it
20:16:05  <andythenorth> DorpsGek: hi
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20:28:09  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: hi
20:28:19  <andythenorth> bit slow DorpsGek
20:28:32  * glx was away ;)
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20:54:18  <Wolf01> 'night all
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21:06:49  <andythenorth> what's the go with using 4x sprites?
21:06:51  <andythenorth> is it trivial?
21:06:58  <andythenorth> does it increase nml compile times?
21:07:28  <Rubidium> the last is a "yes"
21:07:38  <Bad_Brett> i can confirm that ;-)
21:07:49  <Rubidium> the middle is a "fairly close to trivial"
21:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth:
21:09:43  <andythenorth> thanks :)
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21:14:35  <Bad_Brett> hmm... i still don't get the re-randomizing to work... andy, is there any industry from FIRS that uses constant re-randomizing?
21:17:48  <andythenorth> ?
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21:28:07  <frosch123> Bad_Brett: the important thing is that you put the triggers into the graphics chain
21:28:22  <frosch123> if you want to use the randomness in a callback you need two random actions
21:28:39  <frosch123> one for triggers, one for evaluating the random
21:29:00  <frosch123> anyway, night
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21:32:00  <andythenorth> bed time eh?
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21:43:19  <Bad_Brett> thanks frosch123... too late :-P
21:57:53  <Bad_Brett> damn, i still don't get it... can someone post the url to a nml file with randomness in callback?
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22:13:35  <juzza1> i've done it (for vehicles) like it
22:13:46  <juzza1> *like it's here at the bottom
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22:21:26  <Bad_Brett> thanks a lot
22:21:47  <Bad_Brett> but wait... no link?
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22:21:49  <Bad_Brett> :)
22:22:11  <Bad_Brett> ah i see
22:23:02  <Bad_Brett> but that switch block is only called when something happens, right?
22:24:01  <juzza1> i dont really understand why it says "The last parameter <triggers> is optional and allows re-randomizing when certain conditions occur." but later "Note that re-randomizing is done only during a special callback, random_trigger."
22:24:20  <Bad_Brett> yeah, i didn't get that one either
22:24:32  <juzza1> well, this is how it works for vehicles:
22:24:38  <juzza1> default "cb" calls the random switch
22:25:53  <Bad_Brett> my problem is that i have a looping animation
22:26:12  <Bad_Brett> so the callback anim_control starts the animation
22:27:15  <Bad_Brett> and random values are generated
22:27:34  <Bad_Brett> but, as long as the switch is active, i only get the same random values
22:28:50  <Bad_Brett> in your case. you should get new values every time the player hits the refit button
22:30:46  <Bad_Brett> ...why am I doing this to mysel? :-P
22:34:14  <juzza1> can you paste the code anywhere?
22:39:35  <Bad_Brett> the code is huge... but i can make an example of what i'm trying to do
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22:46:43  <Bad_Brett> hmm i might have accidently found the error
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23:55:54  <AndreasB> trains go old so fast
23:56:13  <AndreasB> I renew them when they are 2 years old

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