Log for #openttd on 16th July 2014:
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06:18:45  <ATS63> Say what are the better 4-way train junctions? I'm having congestion issues with a cloverleaf... atm have 37 trains queued because of it. I have also used a different elevation for X & Y directions, so there were less climbs at the intersection
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06:31:11  <V453000> ATS63: build 3-way junctions instead so you can expand them :)
06:31:20  <V453000> 4-way junctions are usually not expandable at all
06:31:50  <V453000> also, realistic acceleration model does not have problems with climbing hills if you have strong trains :P
06:32:53  <ATS63> hmm, thats an interesting point... 3 ways would probably fix it
06:33:47  <ATS63> I'm running double engined x2001's at the moment @ 7 cars. Should I have more engines?
06:35:03  <ATS63> In the process of migrating to maglev. Progressive rail set makes it so much easier
06:36:46  <planetmaker> moin
06:36:54  <planetmaker> 2 engines for 7 cars should be more than enough
06:38:05  <V453000> well, X2001 isnt very good at accelerating ever :)
06:40:06  <ATS63> Really? Double engined x2001's seemed faster than a millenium z1. Although I didn't double engine the z1
06:40:16  <V453000> Lev3 should be fine with 2 engines for 7 wagons ... what I wonder is why do you have odd number of vehicles if even is full tiles? :P
06:40:31  <V453000> well z1 is just worse, doesnt make x2001 good :P
06:41:04  <ATS63> x2001 seemed to me the better monorail engine
06:41:18  <V453000> it is.
06:41:23  <ATS63> V453000: thats just the trains in the queue, not the actual train count
06:41:25  <V453000> but in the bigger picture it is still bad :P
06:41:52  <ATS63> I haven't done vaccum tube before. This game I have it on
06:42:06  <V453000> :D:D:D
06:42:27  <V453000> well, I do consider that newgrf just plain stupid but enjoy :)
06:43:00  <ATS63> the queue over this cloverleaf is so bad that... sometimes it'll queue back down the mainline so several other stations are jammed :(
06:44:33  <V453000> image is worth a thousand words :P
06:44:39  <V453000> show me a screenshot so I can tell you what to fix
06:45:16  <V453000> very likely the cloverleaf is simply borked, we call it join before split - new trains join the line before other trains left it, causing deadlocks
06:47:02  <peter1138> lar de dar
06:47:50  <peter1138> what to fix: don't build cloverleafs.
06:48:04  <V453000> ^
06:48:09  <V453000> that is for sure :)
06:48:40  <V453000> starting with something like this (preferably with the tracks more spaced out) http://blog.openttdcoop.org/files/blog/V453000/hubs_3way.png
06:48:44  <V453000> is never a bad thing
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06:51:41  <peter1138> Hmm, just larger enough to avoid the kinks...
06:52:03  <peter1138> "Just larger enough" is a horrible phrase :)
06:52:12  <ATS63> http://i62.tinypic.com/fxtmoh.png
06:52:50  <peter1138> http://oi62.tinypic.com/fxtmoh.jpg
06:52:56  <peter1138> To avoid the shitty website.
06:53:07  <peter1138> Hmm, it's *still* scaled down :(
06:53:41  <ATS63> Yea I couldn't find a good image dump :(
06:53:55  <V453000> get dropbox :)
06:54:12  <ATS63> droopbox you say... okay
06:54:15  <peter1138> imgur doesn't fuck with your raw images, or indeed dropbox.
06:54:24  <V453000> but yeah, just apply what I already told you, get a 3-way junction and replace all 4-ways
06:54:51  <V453000> your 3-ways would be better off with the design I shown, too
06:55:49  <peter1138> Those sharp bends are awful for performance too.
06:56:24  <V453000> I am afraid he uses original acceleration model :
06:56:27  <V453000> :|
06:56:45  <peter1138> Aren't they awful in that too?
06:56:59  <V453000> not quite
06:57:04  <planetmaker> no. slopes matter more with original acceleration
06:57:17  <peter1138> Hmm, or did maglevs have magical instant turning ability...
06:57:21  <V453000> in original acceleration all curves hurt, almost no matter how short ... so dealing with them quickly is best :D
06:57:45  <V453000> but slopes outright kill all trains, like down to 30 km/h from 643kmh
06:57:47  <V453000> why not :D
06:58:34  <ATS63> oooh... I didn't even realise that setting exists... changed it and it makes a good impact
07:00:58  <peter1138> Bah, silly computer. When I suspend it, Teamspeak's window disappears :S
07:03:16  <peter1138> "Don't steal from secondary and tertiary industries!" What a silly rule.
07:03:21  <ATS63> I always learn a few things when I come here. Thanks for the tips guys :D
07:04:33  <ATS63> One other thing tho... am I the only person who cheats with stations? Say you have an industry just out of reach of a station... you build a bus/truck station next to it, and continue doing so, then demolish them - so there is a gap but they're the same station
07:05:42  <planetmaker> you're not alone in doing so, ATS63
07:06:15  <V453000> try using control+click to get the distant one instantly :P
07:06:22  <planetmaker> also: why else would that possibility be present, if no-one would have wanted it in the first place? :)
07:06:38  <planetmaker> and ctrl+click is the easier way ;)
07:06:47  <planetmaker> to make this cheat easier :P
07:07:03  <ATS63> Ahh didn't know that
07:08:41  <peter1138> Oh my god that stinks
07:08:44  <peter1138> Bloody dog :(
07:10:41  <peter1138> Oh gosh, that 1.4.1 intro screen is WAY too busy...
07:11:02  <planetmaker> you didn't participate in voting. It was a very close call.
07:11:13  <V453000> HA :D there you have it
07:11:17  <peter1138> Frankly, anything other than the ancient one feels wrong.
07:12:14  <peter1138> OpenTTD to me is defined by those WHOOWHOO TINKTINKTINK HONK HONK on start up :p
07:12:30  <V453000> XD
07:12:34  <V453000> that I can relate to
07:12:34  <peter1138> There's a bit of everything but not this horrible flood of road vehicles.
07:12:47  <V453000> sounds disabled for the last X years though :P
07:13:26  <peter1138> Enable sounds, play 1.4.1, cringe.
07:13:58  <peter1138> I used to fight to stop the music, now I want to fight to stop the sounds :(
07:15:13  <SpComb> please don't stop the music
07:17:25  <V453000> I think you would have to be psycho to listen to the same sounds for years :P
07:17:28  <V453000> +music
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07:35:56  <Supercheese> I listen to the original TTD music all the time
07:36:33  <Supercheese> it's very good
07:38:20  <V453000> it is very good, but all the time sounds insane
07:39:39  <Supercheese> it is approximately 3% of my "leave on all the time on shuffle" playlist
07:39:46  <peter1138> Listening to my favourite music constantly very rapidly makes it not my favourite any more...
07:39:54  <Supercheese> 50/1762 songs
07:40:20  <Supercheese> the 50 comes from the different recordings out there
07:40:55  <peter1138> Do you have the real-band recordings?
07:41:01  <Supercheese> all that I can find
07:41:05  <Supercheese> which is probably not all
07:41:43  <peter1138> Ah, it's just the TTD theme, heh
07:41:53  <peter1138> http://www.transporttycoon.net/music?recording=9 :D
07:41:59  <Supercheese> Emre Meydan - Transport Tycoon intro theme
07:42:07  <Supercheese> is that it, oh let me check
07:42:14  <Supercheese> yes it is
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07:44:11  <peter1138> Hurr, playing on this citybuilder malarkey
07:45:04  <planetmaker> there's at least half a dozen of them
07:45:17  <peter1138> Yes, the particular one is not relevant.
07:45:37  <planetmaker> might use different game scripts
07:46:15  <peter1138> Possible, if it's anything like that other thing from a while ago they'd be very secretive.
07:46:38  <planetmaker> I'd not necessarily bet on that anymore
07:46:58  <planetmaker> thus it depends ;)
07:48:02  <planetmaker> e.g. the reddit ones are quite open about what they do
07:48:19  <peter1138> Hmm, don't think it's for me. Kinda boring just concentrating on one 'claimed' town.
07:48:41  <peter1138> The reddit ones are modified, so fuck that :p
07:48:53  <planetmaker> not all. afaik.
07:49:52  <planetmaker> and afaik not server-side. But... well :)
07:49:56  <V453000> city builders are for noobs, you deserve some proper yeti carnage peter1138
07:50:40  <peter1138> Is there a server running that?
07:50:48  <V453000> yes?
07:50:51  <peter1138> Ok
07:50:56  <peter1138> "Reddit has joined the game" hah
07:51:01  <planetmaker> :)
07:51:06  <V453000> openttd welcome server haz latest yeti
07:51:13  <V453000> *coop :P
07:51:59  <planetmaker> but well, welcome server does not require coop :)
07:52:26  <peter1138> That one was an RC wasn't it?
07:52:47  <V453000> sure, latest versions of "stable" :P
07:52:52  <V453000> so RC now :)
07:54:07  <peter1138> Ah, now I need goods :p
07:56:16  <peter1138> Network connection lost... Oh well :p
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08:04:04  <peter1138> 27MB of NewGRFs downloading, hah...
08:06:04  <V453000> will be considerably more soon :P
08:06:21  <planetmaker> :D
08:06:25  <peter1138> :D
08:06:55  <V453000> rendering some animations just now :>
08:07:39  <Xaroth|Work> heh
08:10:16  <peter1138> What's the 1A 2B etc about?
08:10:28  <V453000> just identifiers
08:10:40  <V453000> mainly for sorting in lists
08:11:20  <planetmaker> Not sure they make sense in the name, V453000 :)
08:11:26  <V453000> for sorting?
08:11:42  <V453000> map/industry funding
08:11:54  <planetmaker> even then, that spoils it imho
08:12:12  <planetmaker> it's few enough industry types that I can manage to know the 3 types I want to look at
08:12:31  <planetmaker> and the letters/numbers - as just seen - are rather adding to confusion
08:12:39  <V453000> mhm
08:12:53  <planetmaker> I know the intention and understand it. But I still think it's not worth it
08:13:12  <planetmaker> it's the textual representation of the 404 you replaced by the yeti hut
08:13:13  <V453000> will see
08:13:26  <planetmaker> speaking as an analogy
08:13:48  <planetmaker> makes the newgrf look like a debug version
08:13:51  <V453000> I like to have it sorted, but meh, might change it later
08:14:20  <V453000> its like sorting vehicles in NUTS by the ID and adding similar numbers to purchase menu
08:14:21  <V453000> just for system
08:14:40  <planetmaker> I know. Still ugly as-is now
08:15:29  <planetmaker> rather adding a new industry property which allows sorting in industry list like vehicles :)
08:16:05  <V453000> such property doesnt exist yet I assume :)
08:16:13  <Supercheese> not yeti
08:16:36  <planetmaker> it doesn't exist for industries, indeed
08:17:43  <V453000> when it does, I might use it :P
08:18:55  <peter1138> V453000, "purr"?
08:19:00  <ATS63> https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjx9v5y3i1hrgjp/Lennway-on-sea%20Transport%2C%2020th%20Nov%202030.png
08:19:08  <ATS63> Same intersection, 3 ways instead of 4 ways
08:19:13  <V453000> peter1138: universal tracks
08:19:17  <Xaroth|Work> short corners
08:19:20  <Xaroth|Work> kills speed
08:19:34  <V453000> ATS63: why dont you use the trianglish shape I sent you :P
08:19:44  * planetmaker associates purr with colourful tracks :P
08:19:56  <ATS63> ahh I'll try that on another 3 way in a sec - wanted to test it first
08:20:06  <ATS63> also there is a room limitation
08:20:19  <Xaroth|Work> rule of thumb, if a single train is on more than one corner (so the length between corners is shorter than the length of the train) it causes them to slow down
08:20:56  <Xaroth|Work> now with maglev that's not -that- much of an issue, but with slower trains where it takes them a year to get to full speed...
08:21:10  <ATS63> Xaroth|Work: yea I was playing on orig accel, but that seems true for realistic... I'll have to upgrade quite a few junctions for that :(
08:21:54  <Xaroth|Work> true that
08:27:08  <V453000> RAGE QUIT :D
08:27:17  <peter1138> No, just realised it's past 9am...
08:27:21  <V453000> :)
08:27:22  <peter1138> Meant to be working
08:33:19  <ATS63> Also I'm mostly not maglev... just maglev tracks and progressive rail set... so far
08:33:21  <Xaroth|Work> wait what?
08:33:30  <Xaroth|Work> what is this 'work' you speak of, peter1138
08:33:36  <ATS63> I just caused a crash upgrading a junction so two new lev1's, heh
08:48:35  <ATS63> Do slopes slow down trains in realistic at all? I was using gradual step ups with original, are they necessary?
08:50:09  <ATS63> Also it appears to be the 3rd bend that slows a train in realistic... 2 seems okay
08:50:43  <V453000> they do but it actually depends on how strong/heavy trains are
08:50:51  <ATS63> https://www.dropbox.com/s/q2c4r25p4jbn5uf/Lennway-on-sea%20Transport%2C%2015th%20Apr%202032.png
08:51:17  <V453000> here is a small hint on curves http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Max_Curve_Speed
08:56:17  <ATS63> ahh that makes sense! cheers again!
08:58:14  <V453000> yw
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09:02:01  <ATS63> Yet another question
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09:03:21  <ATS63> Whats your take on map size & generation? I was playing with huge maps, now I'm just doing 256x256... seems more challenging. I also have towns on low, sea on low, terrain on flat
09:03:43  <V453000> I personally love 256x256
09:03:50  <V453000> reasonable maximum for one person is 512x512
09:04:18  <V453000> reasonable maximum for 15 companies is 1024x512
09:04:21  <ATS63> I was playing 4096 on one player :P
09:04:39  <V453000> no point, your cpu just suffers and you cant possibly use the whole map anyway
09:04:41  <V453000> :)
09:04:48  <ATS63> Was too hard to manage big networks
09:05:08  <ATS63> TTD uses almost no cpu anyway, heh
09:05:19  <V453000> wait till you have 1000+ trains
09:05:39  <V453000> and industry newGRFs alone can demolish your CPU with a large map
09:05:42  <ATS63> 1000+? on 256x256?
09:06:04  <V453000> sure?
09:06:18  <V453000> well, with normal sized ones 500 is good on 256x256
09:06:23  <V453000> small ones, 1000 is easy
09:06:38  <ATS63> I have 102 atm, thats hard to manage
09:06:48  <V453000> keep playing :P
09:06:53  <peter1138> :)
09:07:14  <ATS63> money seems a bit senseless later in the game... sitting on 242 million
09:07:32  <V453000> it is. :)
09:07:43  <V453000> building awesome networks is what isnt senseless
09:08:09  <ATS63> True that
09:08:17  <ATS63> Whats the highest date you've ever ran until?
09:08:57  <ATS63> Would be about 2100 for me, but I gave up on those games from too much bad design
09:09:18  <V453000> 3000 something probably
09:09:30  <ATS63> heh
09:09:38  <ATS63> must resemble the demo map
09:10:33  <V453000> I wouldnt say that but you can check yourself
09:10:42  <V453000> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/ProZone:Archive_-_Games_21_-_30#gameid_2013
09:11:01  <V453000> will need http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/GRF
09:11:27  <V453000> ok well 2867
09:11:32  <V453000> and started 2050
09:11:47  <V453000> but yeah, 800 years is probably my longest game :)
09:14:45  <ATS63> whoa
09:15:43  <peter1138> I blame the idiot that introduced long dates...
09:15:58  <V453000> XD why
09:16:33  <peter1138> Dunno, guess it just seemed a good idea at the time :p
09:16:34  <V453000> peter1138: arent you working? :P
09:16:45  <V453000> long dates dont hurt anything ? :P
09:16:48  <peter1138> Yes yes, waiting for a compile...
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09:17:31  <ATS63> https://www.dropbox.com/s/zoav3r8ifp22dy8/Lennway-on-sea%20Transport%2C%2015th%20Apr%202032%231.png
09:17:35  <ATS63> I'm a fair way off :P
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09:18:37  <V453000> you can get there, perhaps not with this game, or with the next one, but sometime :)
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09:18:58  <V453000> if you want to learn, just come join our servers at openttdcoop, there are many other people who know how to build
09:19:17  <ATS63> ahh I pause too much for multiplayer :D
09:19:39  <V453000> pause? why
09:20:00  <V453000> it is a habit you can probably get rid of :P
09:20:20  <ATS63> Experience the game more. I'd miss new vehicles if I didn't, they'd be obsolete by the time I get back
09:20:44  <V453000> ah, well servers pause when people arent there
09:20:55  <V453000> and we use train sets which have new vehicles for 200 years
09:21:00  <V453000> so not a big deal if you miss a few :P
09:22:33  <ATS63> I probably should unpause for a bit cause this congestion problem with the junction will probably take 10 years to clear :/
09:23:11  <V453000> see, you can learn to not have congestions :P
09:23:31  <ATS63> I try, lel
09:24:01  <V453000> k k :P
09:24:23  <V453000> if you had more questions just feel free to ask
09:24:55  <V453000> http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/ProZone:Archive_-_Games_21_-_30#gameid_23 this is a very standard kind of game I like to play on 256x256
09:27:18  <V453000> note: the trains can have so short curves because they can travel through it with full speed
09:27:26  <V453000> NUTS Unrealistic Train Set has plenty of similar trains
09:27:38  <V453000> lets you build dense :)
09:29:54  <ATS63> Ahh interesting. I haven't been able to find a good trainset
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10:03:58  <V453000> well arguably there is only one :P
10:05:39  <planetmaker> :P
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10:18:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i played a 2048x2048 game with very few towns once, anly covered half of the map...
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15:54:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm done now... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Bildschirmfoto26.png
15:55:45  <Rubidium> almost...
15:58:38  <planetmaker> the game clearly is mis-named
15:58:52  <planetmaker> should be 131072 instead of 2048
15:58:54  <planetmaker> or so
15:59:10  <Rubidium> only a small fraction will ever reach 2048; way too many will not get it and simply fail to reach anything large-ish
15:59:32  <planetmaker> I think I stopped at 65k or so
16:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that's only like one quarter of the game
16:00:16  <planetmaker> yes
16:00:25  <planetmaker> but the other 3 quarters are the same ;)
16:00:32  <planetmaker> nearly
16:00:45  <Eddi|zuHause> not even close
16:01:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the last quarter is way more difficult
16:01:38  <planetmaker> yes it is. But still the same
16:02:03  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can say the same about reaching 2048
16:02:19  <Eddi|zuHause> "it's all the same afterwards"
16:02:31  <planetmaker> yes. it is :)
16:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> chess is also all the same after a few moves
16:03:54  <planetmaker> that's not so true :)
16:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> tetris is all the same after a while
16:04:40  <planetmaker> that's true again ;)
16:04:48  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@i59F6B21C.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:04:50  <Eddi|zuHause> or openttd :)
16:05:27  <planetmaker> that's somewhere between chess and tetris on the repetition level ;)
16:06:39  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway... anyone calculated the theoretical maximum score?
16:08:42  <planetmaker> wouldn't that be what your image shows?
16:11:32  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you get less score for each 4 you get
16:12:08  <Eddi|zuHause> because you miss the score from combining two 2s
16:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause> so in an average game you miss 4*(number of moves)*(probability of a 4 appearing) score
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16:33:32  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: isn't the max score on wikipedia?
16:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't look...
16:34:37  <Rubidium> 3932100 says wikipedia (NL)
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16:40:02  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (3932100-3885748)/131072/4
16:40:02  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.0884094238281
16:40:48  <planetmaker> why /4 ?
16:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> from the 4 score you'd get from combining two 2s
16:46:20  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, 8,8% is probably a close estimate for the probability of a 4 appearing
16:46:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there's the exact value in the code
16:47:41  <Rubidium> var value = Math.random() < 0.9 ? 2 : 4;
16:47:54  <planetmaker> hm, didn't there appear any 1?
16:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:48:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so 9%
16:49:05  <Eddi|zuHause> oh no, 10%
16:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess i was lucky then
16:49:56  <Rubidium> ... or your browser's random isn't really random
16:50:37  <planetmaker> sorry... have to quote it: http://xkcd.com/221/
16:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: usally bad random generators have correlation, but bad flat distribution is really rare
16:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> well it's also possible my formula is off
16:52:45  <Eddi|zuHause> because each 4 additionally reduces the number of moves
17:02:29  <peter1138> So how do you managed that?
17:02:46  <peter1138> I always stuck with 2s in the wrong place
17:04:02  <frosch123> he uses the firefox debugger
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17:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> no, way simpler than that
17:11:41  <peter1138> oh?
17:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the game saves your current progress, so if you open a second tab, you get a state to go back to, once it screws you over...
17:13:01  <peter1138> Don't you have to do that for EVERY move?
17:13:06  <peter1138> Well, nearly.
17:13:15  <Eddi|zuHause> no, every 1000 moves at most...
17:13:32  <peter1138> True, you can just redo it.
17:16:55  <Rubidium> just mod the code a bit to always drop the 2 in the most useable location, and only create 4s when it's the last empty tile and there is no adjoining 2
17:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> where's the fun in that? :p
17:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> make a "play the game for me" button :)
17:18:35  <frosch123> copy and paste could also be handy
17:22:10  <Rubidium> rather an undo knob ;)
17:28:43  *** Lars [~Lars@0x55512b16.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
17:30:44  <Lars> Hey; any experts in developing OpenTTD here? :)
17:31:35  <Xaroth|Work>  you'd expect, that there are openttd devs in the official openttd channel
17:31:38  <Xaroth|Work> but i might be mistaken
17:31:58  <Xaroth|Work> I'd personally ask TrueBrain, he might know if such a crowd resides here
17:32:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but are they _experts_?
17:32:22  <Xaroth|Work> well yeah, that too is a good question
17:32:44  <Lars> Well, asked, not expected :)
17:33:23  <TrueBrain> experts in developing OpenTTD .. hmm ...
17:33:31  <TrueBrain> now that is a tricky question
17:33:35  <TrueBrain> as they perse don't develop
17:33:40  <TrueBrain> they are just experts at their field
17:33:41  <TrueBrain> hmmm
17:33:45  <TrueBrain> I have to sleep on that question for a bit
17:33:52  <Lars> ;)
17:34:25  <Xaroth|Work> see, our resident expert of answering such questions even has issues with that one
17:34:35  <Lars> LOL! :D
17:34:42  <Eddi|zuHause> @seen experts
17:34:42  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: I have not seen experts.
17:34:53  <TrueBrain> @seen dickheads
17:34:53  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: I have not seen dickheads.
17:34:55  <TrueBrain> well, I see plenty
17:35:11  <Rubidium> I think most "experts" are experts in not doing anything regarding openttd development lately
17:35:35  <TrueBrain> you carry truth there obiwan
17:36:54  <TrueBrain> Lars: on a more serious note, I suggest you read our topic; part 3 mostly :
17:37:03  <TrueBrain> @topic get 3
17:37:03  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Don't ask to ask, just ask
17:37:08  <TrueBrain> ha, I remembered! \o/
17:39:19  <Lars> TrueBrain: That was a useful hint :)
17:39:37  <TrueBrain> that is why it is in a topic :)
17:40:16  <Lars> Yes, and I even read the topic, but obviously not careful enough.
17:40:27  <TrueBrain> hehe
17:41:42  * Rubidium wonders who TrueBrain would be if I were obiwan
17:42:00  <TrueBrain> do you? really?
17:43:01  <Rubidium> I'd reckon you'd be at least a jedi master
17:44:15  <Rubidium> I'd reckon orudge to be yoda (yay seniority)
17:45:41  <Rubidium> I'd reckon DV to be mace windu (leaders)
17:45:42  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26690 /trunk/src/lang (catalan.txt spanish.txt) (2014-07-16 17:45:33 UTC)
17:45:43  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:44  <DorpsGek> catalan - 4 changes by juanjo
17:45:45  <DorpsGek> spanish - 5 changes by juanjo
17:45:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather have said TrueBrain is Han Solo
17:46:07  <Eddi|zuHause> which would make DorpsGek Chewie
17:46:11  <Rubidium> Tron would probably be a sith lords (darth vader?)
17:46:44  <frosch123> hmm, so i am jar jar bings?
17:47:09  <frosch123> rather the neighbour
17:47:17  <Xaroth|Work> either jar jar or Leia
17:47:17  <Rubidium> frosch123: or do you want to be jabba the hutt ("His appearance has been described by film critic Roger Ebert as a cross between a toad and the Cheshire Cat")
17:47:19  <Xaroth|Work> take your pick.
17:48:10  <Eddi|zuHause> no. Jar Jar binks is a mixture of SirXavius, Leanden, SkiddLow and PeterT
17:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i think tron would be grievous
17:50:40  <Diablo-D3> george lucas is ultimate troll
17:50:59  <Diablo-D3> people talk about jar jar over ten years after his creation
17:51:21  <frosch123> http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110417133013/o4e/images/c/cd/Gungan,_Ankura.jpg <- that one?
17:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: context?
17:52:04  <frosch123> looks like a frog with teeth to me
17:52:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that is not jabba :)
17:52:34  <frosch123> no, but jabba looks like a worm to me
17:53:00  <Diablo-D3> jabba's species are hermaprhodites
17:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> do you want to be the resident sexist now?
17:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (with people constructing a difference between "sex" and "gender" nowadays, are there also "sexists" and "genderists"?)
17:55:06  <TrueBrain> pfft, racist!
17:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm defiinitely one of the guys who built the clone army
17:57:44  <Eddi|zuHause> building an army generator script sounds like the thing i would do :)
18:02:03  * Rubidium still wonders what Lars would've tried to asked this "expert"
18:02:23  <TrueBrain> I am sure he now double checked this was not StarWars United channel
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18:04:09  <Lars> Rubidium: Due to some sillynes I want to develop a few things, and would ask about how to maybe in the future get it into the trunk :)
18:05:28  * andythenorth creates static/var
18:05:31  <andythenorth> and the world implodes
18:06:28  <Rubidium> posting it on the bug tracker is usually the way, although lately not many developers have had the time to actually do something constructive
18:06:39  <Rubidium> fixes for bugs are very very welcome though ;)
18:07:15  <Rubidium> though it all depends on the quality, sanity and usefulness of the patch
18:09:01  <Diablo-D3> [01:53:56] <Eddi|zuHause> do you want to be the resident sexist now?
18:09:01  <Diablo-D3> [01:55:06] <Eddi|zuHause> (with people constructing a difference between "sex" and "gender" nowadays, are there also "sexists" and "genderists"?)
18:09:10  <Diablo-D3> I dont get why people get confused about sex or gender
18:09:23  <Diablo-D3> They are outdated concepts generated by a post-WW2 America.
18:09:35  <Diablo-D3> This is why feminists disgust me
18:09:50  <Diablo-D3> They keep pushing these ideas when they've been proven wrong.
18:10:12  <TrueBrain> nothing wrong with a feminist .. when they are chained to a kitchen *high five*
18:10:54  <Diablo-D3> Anyone who is for woman's rights or gay rights or non-white rights should be shot
18:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the discussion must have taken a wrong turn at albuquerque
18:11:09  <Diablo-D3> Only terrorists put something else above the rights of a human being.
18:11:12  <Rubidium> pff... gender is really simple in primates. X-X chromosome: male, X-Y chromosome: female. Having said that, genetics is a stupid way to classify people.
18:11:26  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: yeah and what happens when you have those that arent xx or xy
18:11:47  <Lars> Rubidium: Ok :)
18:11:49  <Eddi|zuHause> XXX or XYY are not that uncommon
18:11:55  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: or are xx and xy but have different physical attributes
18:12:08  <frosch123> Rubidium: the other way around
18:12:32  <frosch123> the gender of the child is the fault of the father
18:13:09  <Diablo-D3> frosch123: he didnt say otherwise
18:13:33  <Diablo-D3> Anyhow, it is the basic human right that someone can fuck or be fucked by anyone of their choosing
18:13:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: that is totally not the point of sexism...
18:14:00  <TrueBrain> except for when they are under the age of 16 plz
18:14:12  <Eddi|zuHause> (or feminism, for that matter)
18:14:18  <Diablo-D3> man on woman, man on man, woman on woman, natural dickgirl in an orgy, black, white, indian, asian, south american,
18:14:20  <Rubidium> furthermore, I think anyone should be treated equally. That is... no more separate clauses for females (e.g. womens soccer), no more separate clauses for religions (e.g. not liking to pay for birth control or not providing rape kits), ...
18:14:31  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: exactly
18:14:34  <Diablo-D3> and the hilarious part is
18:14:39  <Diablo-D3> this is the world Jesus strived to create
18:14:46  <Diablo-D3> where all humans are equal no matter their attributes
18:14:55  <andythenorth> did Jesus like trains?
18:15:13  <Diablo-D3> yeah, why is this going on in #openttd?
18:15:13  <Eddi|zuHause> # i like trains
18:15:17  <Diablo-D3> take your troll shit somewhere else guys
18:15:36  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: my third favourite video
18:15:38  <frosch123> yeah, and men should be required to become pregnant
18:15:54  <andythenorth> this is pretty
18:15:55  <andythenorth> repo_root = os.path.join(os.path.dirname( __file__ ), '..', '..', '..')
18:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: should watch the rest of asdfmovie :)
18:16:02  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: lol.
18:17:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: wtf would you need to know that for?
18:17:25  <Rubidium> frosch123: at least those not bearing child should get the same [mp]aternity leave as the one bearing child (after all, no more separate clauses)
18:17:29  <andythenorth> gets a path to some tools
18:17:34  <andythenorth> not an ottd-related project
18:17:37  <andythenorth> it’s ugly though
18:17:51  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: nordic countries do that now
18:17:59  <Diablo-D3> it improves the health and well being of the child
18:18:11  *** kero [~keikoz@37.175.19.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: at least over here, that's already possible.
18:18:22  <Diablo-D3> I wish america would pick it up
18:18:44  <Diablo-D3> although, then again, it'd imply men would stop being absent fathers.
18:18:49  <Diablo-D3> which, meh, fuck america
18:19:03  <Diablo-D3> actually, dont fuck america, this is what caused the problem in the first place
18:21:08  <Rubidium> part of america is on the right way
18:21:16  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a funny court case recently. there was a couple who had twins, and one parent took the 12 months off for the one child, and the other one took the 12 months off for the other child. then they switched, and both took the additional 2 months off for being the other parent which didn't take the 12 months
18:21:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the court decided this was legal
18:21:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the time off is per child, not per birth
18:21:35  <Rubidium> it's just that it's not the part between the two that are doing fairly well (Cuba and Canada)
18:21:42  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: so the trick is
18:21:48  <Diablo-D3> to have quintumplets
18:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: that would only help if you have 5 parents to take the time off
18:22:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: time off must be directly after birth, it can't be delayed to add up
18:22:36  <Diablo-D3> ahh, a harem. hrm
18:22:40  <Diablo-D3> that could work.
18:22:59  <Eddi|zuHause> polygamy is not legal
18:23:01  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: so one twin every 14 months and you don't have to work anymore...
18:23:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: pretty much
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18:23:45  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: polygamy is kinda pointless anyway; just don't marry & problem solved
18:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you'd also go insane from not meeting people, and "no work" is an euphemism wrt caring about children, but whatever
18:24:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think you confuse ‘euphemism’ and ‘lie induced by smoking crack'
18:24:30  <Rubidium> give them up for adoption?
18:25:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: what could work is having 6 women, getting each pregnant every 12 months, in 2 month intervals. then each woman can take the 12 months, and you can take the additional 2 months
18:26:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you have to be married to get the additional 2 months
18:27:06  <Rubidium> hmm.... sperm donor?
18:27:24  <Diablo-D3> huh
18:27:29  <Diablo-D3> I could be a stay at home dad
18:27:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's only worth it if you had a decent-but-not-too-decent job before
18:27:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you get a % of your last wage, but capped at a maximum
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18:28:47  <Eddi|zuHause> (how the hell did we get here from "obiwan"?)
18:29:02  <Rubidium> can you be laid off in such a situation?
18:29:24  <Rubidium> via jabba the hutt
18:29:47  <andythenorth> is there a gif for this?
18:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can't be laid off during this time, and you are guaranteed to get your job back
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18:31:47  <Lars> Where are you from, this discussion is probably pretty country-depend ;)
18:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> well certainly not the USA :p
18:32:31  <Diablo-D3> yah the USA is like
18:32:35  <Lars> Me neither, Denmark here :)
18:32:38  <Diablo-D3> YOU WERENT AN HOUR EARLY FOR JOB
18:32:40  <Diablo-D3> FIRED
18:32:56  <andythenorth> I need to make FIRS go faster
18:33:15  <Diablo-D3> so, Im wondering
18:33:19  <Diablo-D3> in grfs
18:33:27  <Diablo-D3> are introduction dates in ticks?
18:33:28  <Eddi|zuHause> well, here in germany you have to steal candy to the value of 1.2¢ to get fired
18:34:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: no, in days
18:34:11  <kero> andythenorth : "faster" ?
18:34:23  <andythenorth> compile
18:34:26  <Diablo-D3> okay, so what would be the side effect of changing the ratio of ticks to days?
18:34:33  <kero> Oh, yes :)
18:34:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: loads...
18:35:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: look at the 20 daylength topics in the development forum, and the 200-ish at the suggestions forum
18:35:35  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: I havent seen threads on it
18:35:51  <Eddi|zuHause> then you haven't looked for them
18:35:54  <andythenorth> I only wish there were even more daylength discussions
18:36:05  <andythenorth> then I could spend more time reading them
18:36:19  <andythenorth> just as people want to spend more time waiting for trains to arrive
18:36:25  <andythenorth> daylength is for fuckwits
18:36:28  * andythenorth proposes
18:36:35  <andythenorth> anyone dissent?
18:36:53  <Diablo-D3> I'd like to see day length be customizable
18:37:22  <kero> andythenorth : indeed, a lot of redundant compiling in FIRS
18:37:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: issues range from various internal counters overflowing (e.g. AI start interval) over people disagreeing on whether industry production should be scaled as well, to towns shrinking
18:38:08  <andythenorth> kero: redundant?
18:38:16  <andythenorth> as in, there’s no partial compile?
18:38:21  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: how many ticks per day?
18:38:21  <kero> I mean, recompiling already compiled and unchanged code
18:38:31  <kero> 1min53secs here for a build
18:38:42  <kero> (e.g: language files)
18:38:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: 74 by default
18:39:03  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: so basically whats screwing things up is things that count days and not ticks
18:39:09  <Diablo-D3> which could be easily fixed
18:39:21  <Eddi|zuHause> "easily"?
18:39:25  <kero> Unfortunately, I'm unable to help you on that :(
18:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you clearly haven't looked at the code base
18:39:37  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: conceptually easy
18:39:46  <andythenorth> conceptually easy is faking the date
18:39:48  <andythenorth> in the UI
18:39:53  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: heh
18:39:53  <andythenorth> but eh
18:40:01  <andythenorth> wtf is the point of daylength?
18:40:04  <Diablo-D3> that'd cause problems with introduction dates
18:40:20  * Diablo-D3 wonders how hard it'd be to rewrite openttd top to bottom
18:40:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: spend more time with steam trains, without denieing technological progress completely.
18:40:58  <kero> Having been through the code in this days, I think really a lot.
18:41:06  <Rubidium> Diablo-D3: I reckon it'd be impossible
18:41:06  * Diablo-D3 should do some research into this
18:41:18  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: well, it'd be impossible if I want to retain compatibility
18:41:35  <Diablo-D3> Im wondering if its time to introduce semi-3D graphics
18:41:38  <andythenorth> daylength is bollocks
18:41:50  <andythenorth> it’s the most-requested, least-wanted feature
18:41:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: oloh lists the probable value
18:42:05  <Rubidium> because every decision you make to remove significant limitations moves it one step further from openttd and closer to e.g. locomotion, simutrans or any other transport simulator
18:42:07  <andythenorth> if anybody actually cared they would have patched a newgrf for it by now
18:42:18  <andythenorth> like they have for capacities, FIRS compatibility, speed etc
18:42:23  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: and theres nothing wrong with that
18:42:31  <andythenorth> but nobody can be arsed to simply change intro dates in a newgrf
18:42:40  <andythenorth> ergo nobody actually wants daylength
18:42:45  <andythenorth> it’s bollocks
18:42:57  <Diablo-D3> well day length could be interesting if we had day/night cycles
18:43:00  <Rubidium> Diablo-D3: but then it's not an openttd rewrite, but writing a new transport simulator maybe spiritually inspired by openttd
18:43:09  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: yeah basically.
18:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: it's like going back in time to change a decision you made. once you established the possibility of this, you want to change so many things that the present won't even be recognizable anymore
18:43:30  <andythenorth> day-night cycles means every newgrf would need to update for compatibilty
18:43:31  <Rubidium> ergo... not being an openttd rewrite and my conclusion it's impossible
18:43:43  <andythenorth> ergo ergo
18:43:44  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: it still could be interesting
18:44:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: no, it won't be.
18:45:07  <Diablo-D3> well, what if it made ttd-style gameplay accessible to a wider audience?
18:45:28  <Eddi|zuHause> it won't do that either
18:46:21  <Eddi|zuHause> because you might as well just give openttd to this audience
18:47:49  <Diablo-D3> yeah, but openttd seems limited in places because no one ever thought openttd should do something
18:47:53  <Rubidium> anyhow, join smallfly
18:51:14  <Eddi|zuHause> @seen smallfly
18:51:14  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: smallfly was last seen in #openttd 43 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 58 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <smallfly> hey :)
18:51:36  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't look very promising
18:52:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: well, go run a kickstarter campaign, see how many full-time programmers you can hire with that money
18:52:29  <Diablo-D3> heh
18:52:40  <Diablo-D3> kickstarter demands working prototypes
18:53:31  <frosch123> otherwise they start kicking?
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18:55:52  <andythenorth> # I like trains http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=489719&nseq=0
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18:56:52  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: I wish I knew how long that train is
18:57:43  <Diablo-D3> must be miles long if it has 7 engines
18:57:54  <Rubidium> you can make an educated guess, since it's 7100 tons
18:58:18  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: how do you know that?
18:58:21  <Rubidium> apparantly also a 2.2% gradient, so extra engines might not be a bad ideaa
18:58:36  <Diablo-D3> and how do you know that?
18:58:52  <andythenorth> it’s only 7,100 tons, might be 50 or 70 cars
18:58:54  <andythenorth> might be 100
18:59:00  <Diablo-D3> >100 cars
18:59:01  <andythenorth> depends how many empty
18:59:08  <Diablo-D3> holy shit
18:59:09  <andythenorth> US cars are ~120t
18:59:12  <Rubidium> Diablo-D3: it's called reading
18:59:19  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: oh I didnt see anything below that
18:59:22  <Diablo-D3> small screen
18:59:51  <andythenorth> the engeines are there for braking
18:59:53  <andythenorth> engines *
19:00:06  <Diablo-D3> braking?
19:00:17  <andythenorth> so it doesn’t end up in someone’s house in Laurel
19:00:30  <andythenorth> or Bozeman or wherever
19:00:35  * Diablo-D3 isnt a trainophile like some people in here
19:00:38  <andythenorth> it’s a down-grade
19:01:02  <Diablo-D3> yeah but how can an engine brake at the front of the train?
19:01:23  <Diablo-D3> wouldnt the mass of the cars behind it just keep going and derail?
19:01:38  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so it doesn’t end up in someone’s house in Laurel <-- didn't the canadians have trouble with that a while ago?
19:02:14  <andythenorth> trains crash most days in the US
19:02:19  <Diablo-D3> I always thought cars themselves could brake too
19:02:25  <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: both
19:02:25  <Rubidium> Diablo-D3: there generally isn't enough momentum in the later wagons to trigger derailing
19:02:28  <andythenorth> but you have limited air
19:02:35  <andythenorth> if you use your air, you’re screwed
19:02:39  <andythenorth> so you use the engine
19:02:57  <andythenorth> if the engines can pull 7,100 tons up a 2.2% grade, they can also stop it going down, right?
19:03:05  <andythenorth> assuming that the speed doesn’t increase too high
19:03:12  <andythenorth> and they don’t lose traction
19:03:20  <Diablo-D3> so its just riding the brakes on the way down
19:03:21  <Diablo-D3> ?
19:03:35  <Rubidium> exactly that... which is why they kinda require more for the way down that strictly needed to pull it up the hill
19:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you generally have bigger forces when braking
19:03:41  <andythenorth> it rides the dynamics
19:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you definitely want to go from 100 to 0 in less time it takes you from 0 to 100
19:04:05  <Supercheese> they'll use the handbrake when they want to drift around corners :P
19:04:17  <Diablo-D3> wat.
19:04:36  <andythenorth> Supercheese: too close to the truth :P
19:04:45  <Diablo-D3> why am I reminded of that two track drifting jpg
19:04:48  <Rubidium> and... with accelerating, assuming you braked before, you are first pulling the first wagons removing slack from the couplings and such, so you get them in motion basically one-by-one
19:05:02  <andythenorth> not if you stretch braked
19:05:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you un-stretch by going backward a step
19:05:20  <Rubidium> when breaking you slow down the first wagon and the rest kinda comes "crashing" in
19:05:27  <Diablo-D3> but still, wouldnt you want an engine at the rear to help with braking?
19:05:40  <andythenorth> rubidium set 10% air on the cars
19:05:47  <andythenorth> then stop in run 1
19:05:54  <Rubidium> Diablo-D3: who says there isn't an engine in the rear, or somewhere in between
19:05:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: that's true if the wagons are not braking themselves
19:06:14  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: because ... openttd never does that? =/
19:06:15  <andythenorth> an engine at the rear isn’t so good for braking
19:06:18  <Rubidium> for steep slopes they usually add helper engines which they remove after the slope (at least for very long cross-country trips)
19:06:30  <andythenorth> might overload the couplers, you get a runaway if a knuckle breaks
19:06:39  <Rubidium> Diablo-D3: in openttd there are no steep slopes
19:06:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: but if the extra engines are meant to provide air for braking, it doesn't matter that much
19:06:51  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: Ive made them ;)
19:07:04  <Rubidium> rising 30 meters over 600+ kilometer is effectively flat
19:07:07  <Diablo-D3> chugga chugga chugga.... stop.
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19:07:18  * Diablo-D3 hates when a fucking train stops
19:08:14  <Rubidium> about 0.003 degrees incline
19:08:25  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: I dunno
19:08:27  <andythenorth> we should extend newgrf spec
19:08:29  <Diablo-D3> back to openttd its like
19:08:30  <andythenorth> air tank capacity
19:08:34  <Diablo-D3> I wish I had more to do
19:08:37  <Diablo-D3> in openttd
19:08:57  <Diablo-D3> like, different tasks
19:09:03  <Rubidium> https://bugs.openttd.org/?do=index&project=1&type[0]=1&sev[0]=&pri[0]=&due[0]=&cat[0]=&status[0]=open&percent[0]=&reported[0]=&order=id&sort=desc <- plenty to do in openttd
19:09:10  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: hurrr
19:09:14  <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: more to do than what?
19:09:20  <Diablo-D3> I am not coding on openttd until it gets rid of all the c++
19:09:22  <andythenorth> what do you do right now?
19:09:35  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: build trains and sometimes get to use vehicles
19:09:39  <frosch123> Diablo-D3: we also have some objective c
19:09:39  <andythenorth> Rubidium: rewite OpenTTD in PHP?
19:09:42  <Diablo-D3> and maps are too small to use air well
19:09:55  <Diablo-D3> air in openttd is basically dead
19:10:30  <andythenorth> only because of stupid town limits on airports :P
19:10:37  <Diablo-D3> well like
19:10:41  <Diablo-D3> lets say I build an intercontinental
19:10:54  <Diablo-D3> no matter how many planes are waiting in the landing queue
19:11:02  <Diablo-D3> I can never fill up all 6? 8? spots loading
19:11:18  <Diablo-D3> so pax and mail get clogged because its not efficiently using stuff
19:11:35  <andythenorth> hmm
19:11:43  <andythenorth> UK toy trains have got a lot better since I was a kid
19:11:49  <andythenorth> and a *lot* more expensive
19:11:56  <Diablo-D3> I never use air because of how fubar it is
19:12:14  <andythenorth> ships are fubar too
19:12:15  <Rubidium> Diablo-D3: the biggest map has a larger surface area than the sun!
19:12:16  <andythenorth> and trams
19:12:32  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: depends on how big you think the map is
19:12:43  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: ships are fubar because they dont clip each other
19:12:51  <peter1138> Infinite maps! Like Minecraft! Except they're not infinite!
19:12:53  <Diablo-D3> so you can have 9000 ships all docked at that tiny dock
19:12:54  <Rubidium> about 8e18 square meters
19:13:04  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: yes, and visually, I dont see that.
19:13:13  <andythenorth> peter1138: procedurally generated maps on scroll
19:13:16  <andythenorth> endless maps!
19:13:19  <Rubidium> that's because everything is drawn so extremely huge
19:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: nothing is infinite in computers
19:13:23  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: yup
19:13:29  <andythenorth> but it’s like never-ending story - the other side of the map gets destroyed
19:13:39  <Rubidium> after all, a tile is about 700 by 700 kilometers
19:13:47  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: and then your horse decides to just give up and die
19:13:53  <andythenorth> in a marsh
19:13:57  <Diablo-D3> in a marsh.
19:14:00  <andythenorth> I only saw that film once, when I was a child
19:14:00  <peter1138> andythenorth, I have a patch...
19:14:03  <andythenorth> I hated it
19:14:06  <Diablo-D3> that is no kids movie
19:14:18  <andythenorth> peter1138: you probably have a patch for turning lead into gold too :)
19:14:27  <andythenorth> and room temperature fusion
19:14:36  <Diablo-D3> Rubidium: so how do you give that a tile is 700 by 700 km?
19:15:01  * andythenorth tries to remember which peter1138 accuses andythenorth of never shipping :P
19:15:18  <peter1138> That was probably peter1139
19:15:27  <andythenorth> I hate him
19:15:29  <andythenorth> that one
19:15:39  <peter1138> Yeah he's a twat.
19:15:40  <andythenorth> the other one is much better
19:15:47  * Diablo-D3 ponders.
19:16:24  <Diablo-D3> how big can a building be in openttd?
19:16:31  <Diablo-D3> like, tile wise
19:16:38  <andythenorth> 2x2 for houses
19:16:43  <andythenorth> bigger for industries
19:16:52  <Diablo-D3> I never see 2x2 skyscrapers
19:16:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i liked that film
19:17:53  <Diablo-D3> how hard is it to decompile a grf and recompile it?
19:18:08  <peter1138> No
19:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it teaches people that imagination and creativity can create worlds
19:18:24  <andythenorth> It’s log, it’s log, it’s big, it’s heavy, it’s wood! http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?16755-Vancouver-Island-BC-Logging-at-its-Best!&p=504623&viewfull=1#post504623
19:18:27  <peter1138> Oh, how hard, not is it hard.
19:18:34  <peter1138> It's not hard to decompile and recompile.
19:18:39  <Diablo-D3> peter1138: ahh
19:18:48  <andythenorth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C7mNr5WMjA
19:18:51  <peter1138> It's hard to make changes to a decompiled newGRF though.
19:18:56  <Diablo-D3> because Im wondering if I should take a bunch of town grfs and combine them into something that seems more realistic
19:19:12  <Diablo-D3> like, Im tired of seeing the same buildings over and over
19:19:25  <Diablo-D3> but you cant easily stack town grfs either
19:19:25  <peter1138> I would recommend against it if you had to ask that question :P
19:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe you like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C_HReR_McQ :p
19:20:10  <Diablo-D3> peter1138: meh
19:20:35  <Diablo-D3> This is usually why I quit playing openttd for like a year at a time
19:20:40  <Diablo-D3> its too frustrating to play.
19:20:53  <peter1138> Diddums.
19:21:08  <Diablo-D3> like, I'd run a server thats loaded up with newgrfs
19:21:13  <Diablo-D3> but people dont play newgrfs
19:21:24  <Diablo-D3> theyre obsessed with the same boring shit over and over
19:21:42  * andythenorth attempts to make internets
19:21:53  <Diablo-D3> the same dozen trains, the lack of useful veh play
19:22:00  <andythenorth> I have to process a form
19:22:03  <andythenorth> wish me luck
19:22:10  <Diablo-D3> first thing a player does in a game?
19:22:13  <Diablo-D3> makes a fucking train.
19:22:33  <andythenorth> make a train, haul pax, make money
19:22:46  <Diablo-D3> players shouldnt even be able to afford trains
19:22:47  <andythenorth> make another train, haul more pax, make money
19:22:50  <Diablo-D3> it should be vehicles
19:22:51  <andythenorth> [WIN]
19:23:04  <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: all this can changed in newgrf
19:23:10  <Diablo-D3> yes but
19:23:17  <Diablo-D3> [03:21:29] <Diablo-D3> like, I'd run a server thats loaded up with newgrfs
19:23:18  <Diablo-D3> [03:21:34] <Diablo-D3> but people dont play newgrfs
19:23:18  <Diablo-D3> [03:21:44] <Diablo-D3> theyre obsessed with the same boring shit over and over
19:23:36  <andythenorth> wtf ‘people'
19:23:39  <andythenorth> just play the game
19:23:48  <Diablo-D3> I dont like playing it single player
19:23:50  * andythenorth [mostly] makes newgrfs for self
19:24:02  <Diablo-D3> and the AIs arent good enough to replace people yet
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19:31:25  <peter1138> Problem with people is they always complain all the time.
19:32:16  <Eddi|zuHause> "but if you make it better, they will complain less" --- no.
19:32:55  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like "if you give the politicians more money, they have less incentive to be corrupt"... also no.
19:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> no amount of money will ever make you stop wanting more money.
19:33:35  <andythenorth> lot’s of philosophy here today
19:33:39  <Diablo-D3> I dont want money.
19:33:47  <Diablo-D3> So lol.
19:33:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: but that's totally independent on which amount of money you have
19:34:16  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: well no, I'd like to have a little bit more money for my discretionary fund.
19:34:21  <Diablo-D3> but other than that, Im fine
19:35:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: if you had double or half the amount of money than you have now, you'd have that exact same thought about more money
19:35:54  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: double? no
19:35:58  <Diablo-D3> that'd be more than I need.
19:36:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: the things you need scale very quickly with the amount you have
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19:36:33  <Diablo-D3> not really.
19:36:39  <Diablo-D3> I have almost everything I want.
19:36:44  <Diablo-D3> and I have everything I need
19:36:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why professional football players are usually broke within 2 years of ending their carreer
19:37:24  <Diablo-D3> yes, because they buy shit they dont need
19:37:48  <Diablo-D3> I'd rather put money away just in case I need it in the future instead of spend it now
19:38:07  <Taede> depends on wether you use actual need or perceived need
19:38:41  <Diablo-D3> food, clothing, roof over head, electric bill, internet bill.
19:38:47  <Diablo-D3> thats what I need.
19:38:55  <andythenorth> meh
19:38:56  <Diablo-D3> anything else is a want.
19:39:00  <andythenorth> python multidict
19:39:06  * andythenorth has to learn how to use it
19:39:42  <andythenorth> oh look at that :o
19:39:48  <andythenorth> I wrote a theming interface
19:39:50  <andythenorth> clever me
19:39:56  <Diablo-D3> can the HQ graphics be set my newgrf?
19:40:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: see, and if you had more money, you'd get more expensive food, finer clothing, bigger house, more electricity, bigger internet
19:40:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: so your needs scale with what you have
19:40:27  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: more expensive food?
19:40:30  <andythenorth> you can be in the top 5% of the country, or the top 2% world-wide, and you still don’t feel comfortable
19:40:33  <Diablo-D3> dude, beef is already +/pound
19:40:35  <juzza1> Diablo-D3: yes
19:40:40  <Diablo-D3> it already IS expensive
19:40:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: but maybe you'd get kobe beef?
19:41:13  <Diablo-D3> nope
19:41:25  <Diablo-D3> I mean, I already buy grass raised grass finished beef when I can find it
19:41:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: or bio beef?
19:41:39  <Diablo-D3> I dont particularly want anything "higher" grade because it isnt
19:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: think of the other direction. half the money you have now. you'd get cheaper food, cheaper clothes, smaller house, less electricity, less internet.
19:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you'd get by all the same
19:44:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but if your money actually is halved money instantly, you'd go bankrupt
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19:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> if it were half from the start, you'd not even consider it
19:44:32  <Rubidium> food is cheap
19:44:36  <Eddi|zuHause> we'd have the exact same discussion about "i have all i need"
19:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> because that is just your personality
19:47:52  <Rubidium> in 1900 (on average) about 40% of household spenditure was on food, in 1950 about 30%, now it's around 15% (in the US)
19:48:12  <Diablo-D3> [03:43:41] <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: think of the other direction. half the money you have now. you'd get cheaper food, cheaper clothes, smaller house, less electricity, less internet.
19:48:18  <Diablo-D3> I survive on about xx a month.
19:48:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so? other people survive on 1$ a day
19:48:38  <Diablo-D3> there is no cheaper food, cheaper clothes, smaller house, less electricity, or less internet
19:49:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and among those, you still find people who are happy with what they have
19:51:17  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: no, they dont survive.
19:51:20  <Diablo-D3> which is the problem.
19:53:28  <frosch123> why is this so spamy today?
19:53:31  <frosch123> go, code ottd!
19:55:06  <Diablo-D3> frosch123: well, according to this channel, openttd is so badly coded that it'd be impossible to rewrite or even clone effectively
19:55:48  <frosch123> what does the current code matter, if you rewrite it?
19:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody said that. you can clone openttd in a matter of seconds
19:56:05  <Eddi|zuHause> or minutes, if you include compile time
19:56:48  <frosch123> also, every code is bad after a few days
19:57:02  <frosch123> some even after some seconds
19:57:53  <Diablo-D3> frosch123: well, I refuse to do c++
19:58:03  <Diablo-D3> its probably why openttd has gotten to the point it is now
19:58:22  <frosch123> what do you prefer?
19:58:27  <frosch123> maybe we have some task for your language
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19:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: you can do assembler programming for TTDPatch, if that helps.
20:00:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: openttd did get to the point it is now because c++ is a way better choice than assembler
20:01:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: c++ might not be the best choice of languages, but it certainly is a "reasonable enough to get things done" language
20:01:14  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: Im not saying use assembler
20:01:28  <Diablo-D3> Im saying c++ isnt even a language, its at least 5 different languages depending on which subset of features you use
20:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: and openttd definitely has more to show for than any of the dozen "i rewrite openttd in a better language" projects
20:02:12  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: thats the wrong argument imo
20:02:20  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: just let him name a language
20:02:23  <frosch123> he still hasn't
20:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: that may be true, but you still didn't answer the question "what is a better language"?
20:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: also, switching languages does not necessarily require a full rewrite. openttd switched languages in the past
20:04:06  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: obviously Ido or Esperanto
20:04:49  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: C is a better language imo
20:04:57  <Diablo-D3> but Ive been meaning to look at rust
20:05:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: then why did we move away from C?
20:05:23  *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit []
20:05:30  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: lack of programming skill? you'll have to answer that yourself.
20:06:04  <Diablo-D3> c++ is "fine" if you're not writing a library, you're not using any existing c++ libraries, and you dont use stdc++ or boost either
20:06:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: (*spoiler alert*: because we spent a lot of time re-implementing c++ features, which created a huge mess)
20:06:09  <Diablo-D3> or templates
20:06:18  * andythenorth likes PHP
20:06:23  <andythenorth> PHP-openttd
20:06:28  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: and this is why you should never be allowed to code
20:06:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: we use 5 times nested templates...
20:06:31  <andythenorth> we’ll get loads of patches
20:06:39  <andythenorth> imagine the flood of new contributors
20:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: and that is the best thing that ever happened to openttd
20:06:44  <peter1138> Don't forget the macros
20:06:49  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, and until that goes away, I will never code on openttd
20:06:49  <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: fortunately there are no code police
20:06:57  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: *un-
20:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: then check out openttd 0.4
20:07:09  <andythenorth> what’s wrong with PHP?
20:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: it doesn'T have any C++
20:07:18  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: meh.
20:07:26  <peter1138> Let's face it
20:07:28  <Diablo-D3> This conversation has gone on for too long.
20:07:39  <Diablo-D3> I dont want to recode openttd, I just want to enjoy it.
20:08:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: your entire discussion is religious in nature
20:08:16  <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: not really
20:08:31  <Diablo-D3> c++ makes it too difficult to figure out what the code actually does
20:08:35  <Eddi|zuHause> "your religion is worse than my religion, because it has the exact same rules, but uses different words for them"
20:09:08  <peter1138> Why does everyone feed the troll, anyway?
20:09:09  <andythenorth> is PHP written in C++?
20:09:15  <andythenorth> or Ruby?
20:09:16  <Diablo-D3> and makes it very hard to statically analyze it because the spec is incomplete and conflicts with itself
20:09:29  <andythenorth> what is PHP written in?
20:09:29  <Diablo-D3> peter1138: eddi isnt a troll, hes just misinformed
20:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> "your koran is worse than my bible, because it contains the same stories, only with a slightly more modern touch"
20:09:34  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: php is in c++ I think
20:09:42  <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: it’s PHP
20:09:44  <andythenorth> not php
20:10:17  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: please leave.
20:10:35  <frosch123> it's funny that d3 names c as better than c++ :p when all the fundamental problems of c++ are in its c inheritance :p
20:11:01  <frosch123> rust otoh is on an entirely different planet
20:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause> just port openttd to D
20:11:24  <Diablo-D3> D isnt a bad language, but not many people use it
20:11:33  <peter1138> frosch123, it's funny because he obviously doesn't even code
20:11:46  <andythenorth> can we recode OpenTTD in Rails?
20:11:48  <andythenorth> seems appropriate
20:11:50  <frosch123> peter1138: yup :)
20:12:23  <glx> andythenorth: don't be silly
20:12:25  <peter1138> andythenorth, I'd suggest Ruby, rather than Rails which is a web framework on Ruby.
20:12:26  <frosch123> if someone says that c is better than c++ because c++ makes it too difficult to follow, he apparently hasn't coded anything beyond 500 lines
20:12:44  <andythenorth> he could write a code generator?
20:12:50  <peter1138> I quite like all the thinly veiled insults too.
20:13:04  <frosch123> hmm, ruby recoding ottd while on rails?
20:13:07  <frosch123> sounds reasonable
20:13:14  <andythenorth> whilst True: print(‘\n’)
20:13:34  <Eddi|zuHause> "this is openttd. and this is openttd on rails"...
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20:23:44  <frosch123> ho! my coffee mug wasn't empty
20:23:52  <frosch123> what a pleasant surprise
20:25:32  <andythenorth> winner is you
20:31:23  <peter1138> But was it hot?
20:31:40  <frosch123> it wasn't cold
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20:34:43  <andythenorth> maybe I can play SV again soon
20:34:55  <andythenorth> it’s fortunate that there is at least one good GS :)
20:34:56  <Diablo-D3> [04:11:54] <peter1138> frosch123, it's funny because he obviously doesn't even code
20:34:58  <Diablo-D3> who doesnt?
20:35:09  <Diablo-D3> [04:12:47] <frosch123> if someone says that c is better than c++ because c++ makes it too difficult to follow, he apparently hasn't coded anything beyond 500 lines
20:35:13  <Diablo-D3> frosch123: not at all
20:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i must be the only person on the planet who is not addicted to coffee
20:35:24  <Diablo-D3> I want the code to be accessible to others
20:35:36  <Diablo-D3> this is why I dont write everything in lisp and haskell and erlang
20:35:41  <Diablo-D3> because most people cant handle it
20:35:57  <andythenorth> why not use PHP then?
20:36:07  <andythenorth> PHP is the most accessible programming language
20:36:14  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, untrue. I can live on tea alone. Well nearly. Except steaks. And chocolate ice cream :P
20:36:25  <planetmaker> and cookies and cakes and... :P
20:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, tea has basically the same content as coffee :p
20:37:10  <frosch123> steaks and ice cream are hardly as important as the others
20:37:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the 'active' content
20:37:25  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: php is not a programming language
20:37:27  <frosch123> i would add yoghurt though :p
20:37:33  <Diablo-D3> it is a scripting language that has gotten out of hand
20:37:41  <Diablo-D3> I really wish people would stop using it
20:37:56  <Diablo-D3> use python, use ruby, use javascript server side, all suck but are still better options than php
20:38:10  <andythenorth> PHP is the best programming language in the world
20:38:14  <andythenorth> that’s why it’s the most popular
20:38:18  <Diablo-D3> can someone kickban andy?
20:38:42  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26691 trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp (2014-07-16 20:38:36 UTC)
20:38:43  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Simplify ShowDropDownListAt (Juanjo)
20:38:46  <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: and no, c, objc, and java are the most popular
20:38:55  <andythenorth> I doubt it
20:38:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: for what? making the exact same argument as you?
20:39:01  <frosch123> @kban Diablo-D3 123456 don't disrupt my patch reviews
20:39:02  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!~diablo@pool-71-241-217-183.port.east.myfairpoint.net] by DorpsGek
20:39:02  *** Diablo-D3 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [don't disrupt my patch reviews]
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20:39:42  <frosch123> everyone can go home now
20:39:46  <frosch123> nothing to see
20:40:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not making this up, am i? he's pure religion about languages. no factual argument
20:40:04  <ST2> cmon.... I still have popcorns ^^
20:40:38  <ST2> anyway, he was angry at something/someone :S
20:40:50  <glx> as always
20:40:57  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: yes. religions do that to people
20:41:22  <ST2> oh well, I hope he get better ^^
20:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> let me issue my doubts
20:41:51  <andythenorth> dunno why I hate strftime so much
20:41:55  <andythenorth> it’s perfectly sensible
20:41:57  <andythenorth> but fiddly
20:42:08  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 123456/60/60/24
20:42:08  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.42888888889
20:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so you're done by friday? :p
20:43:04  <andythenorth> this is *not* the appropriate datetime format for my locale :P
20:43:05  <andythenorth> Wed Jul 16 21:42:33 2014
20:43:09  <andythenorth> lies
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20:54:52  <planetmaker> oh, the diabolic bot is gone :P
20:56:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26692 /trunk/src (depot_map.h order_gui.cpp) (2014-07-16 20:56:39 UTC)
20:56:46  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6059]: Ordering a vehicle to a competitor's rail waypoint displayed an error message. Ignore the click as is done for the other order types to competitor's stuff. (Juanjo)
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21:00:07  <planetmaker> o/ nice commits, frosch123 :)
21:03:51  * andythenorth -> bed
21:03:52  <andythenorth> bye
21:04:00  <planetmaker> bye
21:04:58  <Rubidium> bye andy
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21:06:51  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26693 trunk/src/order_gui.cpp (2014-07-16 21:06:45 UTC)
21:06:52  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Simplify GetOrderCmdFromTile (Juanjo)
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21:09:21  <frosch123> planetmaker:  i messed up though :p half of 92 should have been in 93
21:10:22  <planetmaker> hm :)
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21:12:48  <planetmaker> I took a look earlier at the more height level patch series. It surprisingly seemed much smaller than previous incarnations, about 20 patches or so and rather reasonably ordered and documented
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21:13:05  <planetmaker> not quite fit for trunk (e.g. still uses extra grf file), but...
21:13:20  <planetmaker> ... in a direction one could go. But adds another byte to the map array
21:15:35  <FLHerne> Is the non-workingness of the '[FS#nnnn]' links on http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/ a known/ignored feature?
21:15:45  <frosch123> yay, just rediscovered the best 1.5 feature: update grfs :)
21:15:57  <planetmaker> yup :)
21:16:38  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it adds a byte, but frees half a byte which *could* be used as cache for the slope or something like that which is fairly expensive to compute
21:16:53  <planetmaker> yes
21:17:20  <planetmaker> it also does a few other things which I haven't gone through yet entirely
21:18:00  <planetmaker> or which I'm not too sure about. Like introducing these all-black tiles to speed-up drawing on map borders
21:18:03  <Rubidium> also... you might be able to store the tile height as diff to the tile directly north of it (which'd be -2..2, so would fit in the cache nibble). Only needs a byte for the initial height of the northern tile
21:19:35  <frosch123> planetmaker: so, you were able to reproduce fs#6063?
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21:20:12  <frosch123> planetmaker: the black tiles are something i never understood
21:20:29  <frosch123> already in trunk they are weird
21:20:38  <planetmaker> frosch123, yes, it crashed for me as well
21:20:46  <planetmaker> FS#6063
21:20:54  <frosch123> well, it doesn't crash for me :p
21:20:57  <Rubidium> some news setting?
21:21:04  <Rubidium> it's from the order check
21:21:15  <planetmaker> hm, that *might* be
21:21:21  <Rubidium> (not related to the depot at all)
21:21:28  <frosch123> hmm, maybe the depot order needs to be the current order
21:21:43  <frosch123> oh, i need to enable the order check maybe :p
21:22:04  <planetmaker> maybe *current* needs to be, too. Though I don't think
21:22:17  <frosch123> yeah, now it crashed
21:22:18  <planetmaker> it crashed *after* I replaced the invalid order by a valid one again
21:27:18  <frosch123> the invalid order causes the previous travel to change to "not timetabled"
21:27:48  <planetmaker> hm
21:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather put the height of the 4 tile corners in the free nibble, to allow cliffs and stuff
21:35:33  <frosch123> that's called "slope"
21:35:48  <frosch123> but a slope needs 5 bits
21:37:20  * planetmaker would also want to separate the landscape type for more joy with diverse landscapes
21:37:43  <planetmaker> that needs at least one additional bit
21:37:45  <Eddi|zuHause> just extend the map to 64 bits
21:37:57  <planetmaker> :P
21:38:08  <planetmaker> that will add *a lot* of boilerplate
21:38:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it's really not hard to do
21:38:19  <planetmaker> it's easy, yes
21:38:27  <planetmaker> and near-double savegame size
21:38:33  <Eddi|zuHause> it would also solve this messy separation into 2 arrays
21:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> because you don't have this alignment trouble anymore
21:38:59  <frosch123> can you timetable conditional orders?
21:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
21:39:18  <planetmaker> good question. sounds messy
21:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't timetable a wait time for depot orders, only a travel time
21:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause> similar to waypoints
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21:58:09  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, huh?
21:58:21  <Eddi|zuHause> what?
21:58:30  <peter1138> Tile is already 64 bits.
21:58:42  <peter1138> TileExtended is another 8 bits.
21:58:54  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i thought it was 32?
21:58:54  <peter1138> So you want to extend 72 bits to 64 bits? Heh
21:59:04  <Eddi|zuHause> whatver, then i meant 128
21:59:53  <peter1138> Don't see how that's helpful
21:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> 32 does sound a bit low, now that you say it
22:00:48  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i meant that you get rid of this tileextended, whose only purpose is to not blow up the array size due to alignment
22:01:37  <peter1138> But needless nearly doubling the memory usage makes sense to you?
22:02:00  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it's not needless if you're adding more stuff anyway
22:02:16  <peter1138> Only if you're adding stuff that needs another 56 bits...
22:02:55  <peter1138> I saw 1 byte above. 80 bits is still considerably smaller than 128 bits.
22:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> data is like an ideal gas. if you extend the space, it automatically fills it instantly :p
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22:04:14  <planetmaker> except with data there is 0 theoretical probability that it will shrink ;)
22:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> if you dig even a little bit, you find loads of things that would probably improve things if they were added to the map array
22:04:57  <Eddi|zuHause> my suggestion is to extend the map array in one step, and then add these little things. instead of extending the map array for each little thing
22:05:02  <peter1138> Sure, loads of limits suddenly disappear.
22:05:17  <frosch123> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3506/ <- fs#6063
22:05:45  <frosch123> the invalid orders are set to zero wait time, all travel times are preserved
22:13:42  <planetmaker> that hunk is in the place where the order destination is invalidated?
22:14:03  <frosch123> yes, MakeDummy turns the order into an invalid one
22:14:14  <frosch123> funnily there is only one place, which does that :p
22:14:22  <planetmaker> :)
22:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause> oh god! good code design! where did you find that?!
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22:18:19  <peter1138> D3 did it?
22:19:31  <peter1138> As none of us is a real programmer, and have no programming skills...
22:20:31  <frosch123> i can confirm that. most real programmers have no programming skills
22:20:59  <planetmaker> :D
22:25:01  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26694 trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp (2014-07-16 22:24:55 UTC)
22:25:02  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26547) [FS#6063]: When orders become invalid, reset the waiting time, but keep the travel time.
22:25:57  <frosch123> night
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