Log for #openttd on 16th November 2014:
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01:37:15  <straightsilver> Hey
01:37:27  <straightsilver> I want to join the vanilla server but all the copoerate slots are full :(
01:38:15  <straightsilver> newgrf is full also
01:38:16  <straightsilver> :(
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02:25:21  <mordant> straightsilver: Yeah, lately it seems there needs to be a second vanilla server.
02:49:21  <straightsilver> yeah I would love to play me some vanilla
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03:16:10  <mordant> Is there a way to clear deleted station's labels?
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04:03:48  <Supercheese> mordant: Just wait a while and they disappear
04:03:57  <Supercheese> there's no other way I am aware of
04:11:36  <ccfreak2k> Is `movzx edx,dx' improper
04:11:56  <ccfreak2k> I'm giving myself a crash course in x86 assmbly so I'm trying to learn what shortcuts I can take.
04:12:02  <Supercheese> I have no idea...
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04:17:32  <ccfreak2k> Wait why did I ask here
04:18:31  <Supercheese> Again: I have no idea...
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08:15:12  <andythenorth> ha ha
08:15:16  <andythenorth> daylength
08:15:16  <andythenorth>
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08:26:01  <peter1138> Heh
08:26:03  <Alberth> hi hi
08:45:18  <planetmaker> moin moin
08:45:23  <Alberth> o/
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11:00:57  <Wolf01> hai
11:01:35  <Alberth> moin
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11:03:29  <supermop> yo
11:07:52  <Taede> mornin
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11:26:03  <argoneus> ayy
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13:08:44  <supermop> listening to broomhall music
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14:44:20  <andythenorth> it’s oh so quiet
14:56:09  <LordAro> shh!
14:58:37  <andythenorth> you're all alone
14:58:38  <andythenorth> and so peaceful until
15:14:45  <Alberth> ...
15:19:13  <V453000> NO.
15:25:16  <andythenorth> YES
15:25:41  <silverservert> Maybe
15:25:56  <andythenorth> a comedian :)
15:33:58  *** horazont [~unknown@2a01:4f8:d16:1305::3] has joined #openttd
15:34:15  <horazont> trying to get auto-separation for timetable’d trams to work
15:34:44  <horazont> is there a wiki page for that? all I found was and
15:35:37  <FLHerne> horazont: Ctrl-clicking 'set start date' sets the start dates of all vehicles sharing that timetable to e evenly-spaced around the duration
15:36:25  <horazont> yes, but that only has odd effects, I assume I’m doing something wrong
15:36:26  <FLHerne> So if you have three vehicles sharing the TT and it takes 60 days to complete, it sets start dates at 20-day intervals
15:36:37  <horazont> my workflow is this right now:
15:36:44  <horazont> 1. make a tram, put orders, autofill timetable
15:36:51  <horazont> 2. send tram home, clone several trams with shared orders
15:37:06  <horazont> 3. ctrl-click set start date, set it to let the TT start a few days in the future
15:37:09  <horazont> 4. start all trams
15:37:18  <horazont> result is that they are *all* running late immediately
15:37:27  <horazont> shouldn’t they be running early?
15:38:29  <horazont> hmm, no, the dates are indeed in the past
15:39:27  <Alberth> does it matter?  Their due dates should be different, if you give them some slack, they'll get the their right point after some time
15:39:44  <horazont> hm, just that trams can’t change order easily
15:40:05  <horazont> ha, so the trick is to release them in order!
15:40:06  <Alberth> and passing each other may be a problem too
15:40:25  <FLHerne> horazont: Having at least one large station, with plenty of stops and waiting time, is usually a good idea with trams
15:40:59  <FLHerne> horazont: So that they can correct their order and/or wait time without blocking each other
15:42:07  <horazont> mhm
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16:12:46  <andythenorth> if anybody would like to timetable my ships let me know :P
16:17:40  <horazont> I don’t believe in ships. but before today, I’d also have said that I don’t belive in passenger transport, and now my whole empire is based on passenger transport. CargoDist really makes it more fun
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16:25:13  <FLHerne> horazont: CargoDist autotransferring, combined with autorefit, makes ships a lot more fun too :-)
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16:51:00  <horazont> are there any considerable advantages of pre-signals over path-signals? afaict, since path signals were introduced, there’s no reason to use anything else, is there?
16:52:01  <Eddi|zuHause> no.
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17:00:33  <FLHerne> horazont: Many servers prefer you to use plain block signals rather than path for plain-line sections
17:01:03  <FLHerne> horazont: Because there's no difference in behaviour, and path-signals need a bit more processing
17:01:07  <Eddi|zuHause> which is plain useless
17:01:24  <V453000> that requirement is only because these servers want to make good players, the cpu is just an excuse or wrong reason
17:01:35  <Eddi|zuHause> because no evidence was ever produced to support this processing claim
17:01:38  <V453000> path signals will simply never lead you to proper solution
17:02:51  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure I saw some numbers somewhere. Not very significant ones though
17:03:30  <V453000> technical differences really dont matter FLHerne :) spamming 100 road vehicles or ships (which is very easy to do) will cause more harm
17:03:42  <FLHerne> Also, there's that annoying thing where path signals 'lag' and stop trains briefly even when a clear path exists
17:04:19  <FLHerne> 'Some servers insist on it' is a useful fact though, even if the reasons are dubious
17:04:37  <Wolf01> as we are talking about signals: on load balancers (those with a bridge/tunnel), is it better to use path signals or a bunch of pre-signals?
17:04:51  <V453000> pre-signals, they choose better
17:05:01  <V453000> path signals can often consider some paths not good enough etc
17:05:23  <V453000> since firstred of exit signal gives like 10 000 penalty, that makes the choice a lot easier
17:05:47  <horazont> hm
17:05:52  <horazont> I’ll go for some sandboxing to mess with signals :)
17:09:03  <Wolf01> I must rethink my cargo tracks, I can't use them for both point to point and CDist, the whole network screws up
17:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, going at cargodist with a point-to-point mindset will almost certainly fail
17:09:55  <V453000> or expand your network :)
17:10:07  <V453000>  why would that fail Eddi
17:10:14  <V453000> it is the ultimate solution, no junctions, just stations
17:10:31  <Wolf01> longer routes
17:10:44  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that is already a different mindset
17:10:46  <V453000> sure but it takes care of itself easily
17:10:57  <V453000> no messing around, all of the distribution sorted out
17:11:37  <V453000> isnt about mindset, it just shows the broken nature of cargodist if it motivates do do such a thing
17:11:59  <V453000> logically, it does suggest it because stations solve all of the problems it brings
17:12:09  <Wolf01> the problem is to deliver a lot of supplies to boost the production for the pont to point cargos, they need a ring shaped network
17:13:11  <Wolf01> my current network don't allow to reach 2 pickup stations without first reaching the unload station/supplies station
17:13:33  <Wolf01> and the main intersection is about at the center of the map
17:13:44  <horazont> I was thinking that cargodist maybe only makes sense for symmetric goods
17:13:57  <Eddi|zuHause> possible solution: stick a supplies wagon to all trains
17:14:05  <horazont> it is certainly loooots of fun with passengers
17:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> then you can have the dropoff station take care of the distribution
17:14:58  <Wolf01> yes, that is an idea, I already tried it with YETI
17:15:27  <Eddi|zuHause> other possible solution: use trucks and planes for the supplies, completely decoupled from the train network
17:15:32  <Wolf01> all the primary industry trains had some wagons for workers
17:16:08  <Wolf01> planes are crashy :P
17:17:11  <Eddi|zuHause> you can turn those off
17:17:26  <andythenorth> with freight cargos, point-to-point is the most valid cdist strategy
17:19:03  <FLHerne> I think having CDist 'cancel out' bidirectional demand for freightish stuff might make it behave better?
17:19:19  <andythenorth> it behaves exactly as expected right now
17:19:22  <andythenorth> I wouldn’t change it
17:19:43  <FLHerne> Some bidirectional coal/ore traffic for blending occurs in RL, but moving stuff in both directions across the entire map is a bit odd
17:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: well, tweak the demand functions if you dare...
17:22:43  <FLHerne> Aaargh
17:32:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "Boeing has reported .4 billion in pre-tax profits to its shareholders, while claiming a total of 5 million in refunds from the IRS, an effective tax rate of -0.4 percent."
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17:43:59  <andythenorth> FLHerne: how are you getting bidirectional demand?
17:45:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I mean if you have a secondary at each end of the map, and primaries spread out a bit, you have cargo going both ways up the middle
17:45:29  <FLHerne> Because some of the stuff from each end goes all the way down the map to the other
17:45:46  <FLHerne> Maybe I should turn up effect of distance a bit more
17:46:27  <andythenorth> you’re doing that not cdist :)
17:46:39  <andythenorth> cargo has no destinations
17:49:33  <andythenorth> for freight, you only want to create directed graphs
17:50:02  <andythenorth> and you want one secondary per graph typically
17:50:58  <andythenorth> and don’t bridge the graphs
17:51:12  <andythenorth> you want to create what I think some network theorists call cave worlds
18:00:19  <Alberth> non-cyclic directed graph will do :p
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18:10:43  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, you can make a cargodist graph directed by using "no loading" orders, but that kinda destroys any system that builds on an autorefit main line with feeders
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18:11:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and that brings you back to "trains drive empty on the way back"
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18:27:56  <andythenorth> but that’s just how cdist works
18:28:07  <andythenorth> you get odd results if you try to back load same cargos
18:28:59  <andythenorth> refit to different cargo is fine
18:29:04  <andythenorth> but that’s a different graph
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18:59:08  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. hence the suggestion to change the way cargodist works.
19:08:10  <FLHerne> Also, some level of autorefit control beyond 'this specific cargo' and 'absolutely any cargo'
19:08:51  <FLHerne> And some way to actually force a complete refit - even 'autorefit to A' will load cargo B if the vehicles come in carrying B
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19:10:07  <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon you specified a range of acceptable cargos for refit
19:10:26  <andythenorth> FLHerne: you should be able to trick that by repeating the station, not sure
19:10:42  <andythenorth> in fact, I think what you just described is a bug
19:10:46  <andythenorth> which I think is fixed
19:11:10  <andythenorth> if there is a station refit order to A, then it should be honoured as long as B is unloaded
19:11:15  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The latter - you can't, without using two different stations
19:11:22  <FLHerne> Oh, that's interesting
19:11:23  <andythenorth> use unload
19:11:30  <FLHerne> I should try recent trunk
19:11:37  <andythenorth> if you can reproduce the behaviour in recent trunk, it’s a bug imo
19:12:04  <andythenorth> I had a bunch of minor issues with refits and transfers, I reported them all to fonso, they all got fixed
19:12:18  <andythenorth> the last game I played (few weeks ago), everything working perfectly
19:32:29  <andythenorth> literally everything :P
19:32:42  <andythenorth> I didn’t need to adjust consists, which is the main remaining irritation in ottd :P
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19:35:49  <argoneus> ayy
19:45:58  <Quatroking> lmao
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20:15:12  <Eddi|zuHause> saying "lmao" without context kinda defeats the point...
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21:29:11  <Wolf01> changed a little the junctions and some tracks, now I deliver less supplies but to more stations in a single trip, they seem to be more happy about it
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21:39:30  <FUZxxl> Hello!
21:40:05  <FUZxxl> Considering I have a y-shaped fanout that I want to load-balance on (i.e. it doesn't matter what track the trains choose).
21:40:25  <FUZxxl> How do I place signals so that trains wait in front of the y until one of the sides is free?
21:41:01  <FUZxxl> i.e. they should not try to enter one of the arms until the block behind it is free.
21:41:22  <FUZxxl> Asides from using pre-signals, is there a way to do this with path-signals?
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21:43:27  <glx> the basic rule for path signals is to place them only where it's safe for a train to wait
21:43:49  <FUZxxl> ok.
21:44:38  <glx> so one before the y and the next one far enough so a train can wait on a branch without blocking the crossing
21:44:50  <FUZxxl> ok.
21:44:55  <FUZxxl> interesting approach.
21:44:59  <FUZxxl> Let me try that.
21:45:08  <FUZxxl> I'll report back when I can tell you if it works.
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21:45:54  <andythenorth> herp
21:45:59  <andythenorth> still don’t understand the loans thing
21:46:02  <andythenorth> borrow money
21:46:05  <andythenorth> build pax
21:46:08  <andythenorth> await riches
21:46:39  <glx> andythenorth: built coal is better :)
21:46:45  <andythenorth> not in FIRS
21:46:47  <andythenorth> dunno why
21:47:23  <FUZxxl> I have recently started playing games where I restrict myself to passenger transportation (cargodist enabled). Lots of fun and requires a completely different railway design.
21:54:01  * andythenorth finds metros help a lot
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22:09:15  <andythenorth> bye
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22:09:53  <Wolf01> 'night
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