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Log for #openttd on 22nd January 2015:
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09:38:39  <andythenorth> o/
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09:53:17  <andythenorth> where is cat?
09:56:40  <V453000>  watup
09:56:45  <V453000> cat is under the tracks
09:57:18  <andythenorth> yair V453000
09:57:27  <argoneus> good morning train friends
09:57:29  <andythenorth> so example of stupid FIRS thing because
reasons
09:57:34  <andythenorth> Iron Works makes metal
09:57:44  <andythenorth> but only 4t per 8t input, even when fully supplied
09:57:55  <andythenorth> Steel Mill is 8t per 8t input if fully supplied
09:58:03  <andythenorth> “because players should do extra work"
09:58:14  <andythenorth> eh, what?
09:58:19  <andythenorth> bad thinking by andythenorth
09:59:14  <V453000> iron works is the early 1800s or something industry?
09:59:19  <andythenorth> yeah
09:59:24  <V453000> personally I dont like the changing industries over game date at all
09:59:28  <andythenorth> no
09:59:36  <andythenorth> you iz correct
09:59:38  <V453000> one expires one becomes available :/
09:59:45  <V453000> mezz
10:00:05  <andythenorth> Iron Works is only one that does it
10:00:21  <andythenorth> fucking up the production was retrospective justification for adding it
10:00:34  <V453000> XD
10:00:40  <andythenorth> there are lots that have intro dates, these are annoying too
10:00:45  <andythenorth> broken chains before xyz
10:00:56  <andythenorth> hard to balance
10:00:56  <V453000> yes, especially the biorefinery
10:00:57  <andythenorth> boring
10:01:01  <V453000> recyclables is nice though
10:01:08  <V453000> some spicing up for late game, that I like
10:01:09  <andythenorth> reyclables is the joker in the pack
10:01:13  <andythenorth> recyclables *
10:01:15  <V453000> because it is quite independent of anything
10:01:25  <andythenorth> example of not sticking to a rigid system, because that’s too boring
10:01:35  <andythenorth> always need something different
10:01:42  <V453000> recyclables are nice
10:01:46  <andythenorth> but Iron Works isn’t
10:01:58  <V453000> quite :P
10:02:00  <andythenorth> nor is delaying some industries until 1900s, and the game rarely builds them
10:02:13  <V453000> also fish should be done something about
10:02:17  <V453000> fun cargo but no growth = boring
10:02:25  <andythenorth> solve iron works first, we talk fish after
10:02:29  <andythenorth> iron works, delete?
10:02:30  <V453000> :)
10:02:37  <V453000> replace with steel mill, easy :P
10:02:46  <andythenorth> already is steel mill in game
10:02:51  <V453000> exactly
10:02:53  <andythenorth> downside of deleting, sad players, sad danmack
10:03:07  <V453000> xd
10:03:21  <andythenorth> upside of deleting: not much, it’s only in Full FIRS, and Full FIRS is out of control anyway
10:03:24  <V453000> players are idiots, danmack needs to step up to 3D :P
10:03:31  <andythenorth> noooo
10:03:37  <andythenorth> he’s the best pixelator
10:03:48  <andythenorth> so just make production not-fucked-up?
10:03:58  <V453000> I guess
10:05:21  <andythenorth> needs a third cargo
10:05:37  <andythenorth> otherwise people will do excel spreadsheets showing why the logical choice is to use iron works not steel mill
10:05:42  <andythenorth> as more output per input
10:05:46  <V453000> XD
10:05:56  <andythenorth> hmm they use sand for casting
10:06:01  <andythenorth> and stone for smelting
10:06:19  <andythenorth> and scrap metal
10:06:23  <V453000> well, you do have two different industries producing the same thing, does it matter which one people use?
10:07:02  <andythenorth> not if I make them roughly equivalent
10:07:23  <andythenorth> let’s look at cargo flow chart
10:07:25  <andythenorth> in my head
10:07:35  <V453000> xd
10:07:41  * V453000 demands image chart
10:08:38  <andythenorth> inside of my head?  you don’t want pictures of what’s in there
10:09:14  <V453000> point taken
10:10:03  <andythenorth> sand
10:10:12  <andythenorth> because you can see the animation of the iron being cast
10:10:17  <V453000> .
10:10:23  <andythenorth> and it’s arbitrary choice, no real gameplay impact either way
10:10:24  <V453000> cargo because animation
10:10:26  <V453000> sense :P
10:10:36  <andythenorth> sense left this industry a long time ago
10:10:37  <V453000> I think sand is good actually
10:10:47  <andythenorth> scrap metal already makes metal in two places
10:10:50  <V453000> sand cant make any supplies otherwise right
10:10:54  <andythenorth> no
10:11:02  <andythenorth> well, I fucked up the chains by adding two kinds of port
10:11:03  <V453000> off with it to the foundry then :D
10:11:09  <andythenorth> so now sand can make supplies via goods
10:11:17  <V453000> yes thats fun
10:11:18  <andythenorth> err
building materials
10:11:20  <andythenorth> not goods
10:11:27  <V453000> sure
10:11:30  <andythenorth> anyway
10:11:33  <andythenorth> so fish?
10:11:40  <V453000> fish should wreck all shit
10:11:51  <V453000> nah just make the production have any chance of increasing
10:12:03  <V453000> let it accept FMSP, let it increase randomly by itself, anything :)
10:12:07  <andythenorth> then I have to build more boats
10:12:16  <andythenorth> building fishing boats is serious yak-hsaving
10:12:19  <andythenorth> need a fishing AI
10:12:23  <V453000> ._.
10:12:28  <V453000> you can build trains :P
10:12:49  <V453000> esp if you make FIRS set max distance from shore for marine industries to something like 10
10:12:51  <andythenorth> fish is the cargo I do in early game for stable income with no network jams or need to babysit
10:12:55  <V453000> slight walking etc, great stuff
10:13:02  <V453000> boaring
10:13:06  <andythenorth> you want a fish farm on land?
10:13:12  <V453000> NO :D
10:13:17  <V453000> fish farm in the sea is great
10:13:26  <andythenorth> random increase, standard ttd mechanic?
10:13:31  <V453000> but never used due tlow production
10:13:37  <V453000> standard ttd mechanic wouldnt hurt
10:13:45  <V453000> means you could grow them up to 2k but would take a long time
10:13:48  <andythenorth> eh
10:13:52  <andythenorth> so good service means more fish
10:13:53  <V453000> would actually be really nice
10:13:57  <andythenorth> that’s anti-realisms :)
10:13:59  <V453000> yay
10:14:03  <V453000> but good mechanics
10:14:04  <andythenorth> realisms, more fishing, less fish
10:14:06  <andythenorth> ho
10:14:10  <andythenorth> quotas :P
10:14:24  <andythenorth> supply exact right amount of transport, get more fish :P
10:14:30  <V453000> XD
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10:14:34  <andythenorth> not coding that
10:14:47  <V453000> I would just let it have the original industry mechanism, that would be great
10:14:54  <andythenorth> what, totally random?
10:15:01  <andythenorth> or paying attention to transport rating?
10:15:16  <V453000> the one with attention ot station ratings I suppose
10:15:28  <V453000> XD broken as fuck with your 100% station rating hax
10:15:29  <V453000> but k
10:15:40  <V453000> still better than current stuff
10:15:40  <andythenorth> I don’t use that hax
10:15:47  <V453000> me neither :)
10:15:53  <andythenorth> the 100% was filed under ‘players want options'
10:15:55  <andythenorth> :P
10:16:04  <V453000> players dont want to build 2 trains per industry
10:16:06  <V453000> good players.
10:17:08  <andythenorth> the ‘improved ratings’ are for when I play with NARS 2, and have 30 tile long trains on single-track rail with passing looooops
10:17:26  <andythenorth> now I am building 5 tile high speed freight trains on fully signalled double track
10:17:31  <andythenorth> must have been in too many coop games :(
10:17:42  <andythenorth> sad
10:18:03  <andythenorth> next game I’ll probably build overflow depots :(
10:18:18  <V453000> : D
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12:58:37  <andythenorth> oh
12:58:45  * andythenorth finds some things wrong in FIRS
12:58:46  <andythenorth> oops
12:59:06  <V453000> XD
12:59:15  <V453000> am almost done with all tracks meanwhile :)
12:59:18  <V453000> roads to go
12:59:27  * andythenorth has no idea how industry production works
12:59:36  <andythenorth> but possibly lots of secondaries are doing it wrong currently
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13:00:02  <deniz1a> hello
13:00:32  <deniz1a> what do you do with your money in the game after a while? fund primary industries?
13:00:34  <andythenorth> fortunately whoever wrote this left extended code comments
13:00:39  <andythenorth> deniz1a: yes
13:00:52  <andythenorth> that’s one of the better options
13:00:55  <deniz1a> but they cost around 30 million. is it worth it?
13:01:04  <andythenorth> ‘worth it’ is subjective :)
13:01:12  <andythenorth> you have more money than you need?
13:01:20  <V453000> you have shitload of money, worth is indeed a bad word :P
13:01:24  <deniz1a> do you get that much money from them?
13:01:54  <V453000> just stop caring about money :) you have billions after a few decades anyway
13:02:06  <V453000> build a nice, big network
13:02:14  <V453000> the more trains you can get the better :)
13:02:15  <deniz1a> yeah maybe it's more important in multiplayer
13:02:24  <deniz1a> oh and about that
13:02:49  <deniz1a> once darwin jumbo jets are available, what's the point of constructing anything else?
13:02:58  <deniz1a> they bring 100 thousand dollars in one flight
13:03:08  <V453000> exactly, quit regarding money
13:03:13  <V453000> trains are interesting and fun :)
13:03:41  <V453000> you can adjust any costs anyway, with newGRFs for example
13:03:48  <deniz1a> yeah, i just learned how to use signals. it's so much fun
13:03:51  <V453000> money will always be just a number
13:03:52  <V453000> see
13:04:23  <V453000> see openttdcoop.org how to build a big network, you might enjoy that if you want to really learn the game and play long while still interesting games
13:04:32  <deniz1a> but still, it's the main point of the game, to make profits, isn't it?
13:04:38  <deniz1a> ok i'll look at it
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13:04:44  <V453000> not exactly
13:04:58  <V453000> it is seemingly the point for beginners, but after a short while you discover that making money is very primitive
13:05:16  <deniz1a> for example, i build rail networks to carry iron to steel mill then take that steel to a factory and also get grain and livestock to that factory
13:05:17  <V453000> the game is one big sandbox, really :) you just do have to move things around :)
13:05:30  <deniz1a> and all that brings very little compared to carrying passengers
13:05:59  <andythenorth> if you’ve figured out winning at money, try a gamescript (GS)
13:06:01  <V453000> sure, that points to various things
13:06:13  <V453000> either you have newGRFs which just do not "balance" each other by costs
13:06:17  <andythenorth> it gets boring fast once you know how to make money
13:06:28  <deniz1a> gamescript? do you mean scenarios or newgrf?
13:06:30  <V453000> or you simply have some settings which let planes get extreme profits, also constructing planes is easy
13:06:38  <V453000> gamescript is a gamescript :)
13:07:20  <andythenorth> Silicon Valley and NoCarGoal are two good ones
13:07:26  <andythenorth> available from in-game content
13:07:30  <deniz1a> oh ok i saw gamescripts in the online contents
13:07:32  <andythenorth> there are also some about growing cities
13:07:41  <deniz1a> ok
13:07:47  <andythenorth> Busy Bee is a new one, in development, but there is no win condition
13:07:50  <V453000> YETI is better at growing cities already :P
13:08:06  <deniz1a> yeti has awesome graphics
13:08:19  <V453000> thanks :)
13:08:37  <deniz1a> but i think generally passenger transport fees should be reduced
13:08:49  <V453000> there are newgrfs which do that :)
13:08:57  <deniz1a> oh you did yeti? great work heh
13:08:59  <V453000> but it is all very changeble
13:09:00  <V453000> yes
13:09:17  <V453000> e.g. you can have city size multiplier at 10 and make passengers outright profittable
13:09:33  <V453000> or you can have very small towns and slow growth rate, multiplier 1 and you dont get as many
13:09:43  <V453000> you cant really create a cost which would be "balanced"
13:10:06  <deniz1a> oh ok. yes city growth would control passenger profits
13:10:46  <V453000> many things do :) even date when you start, later date, faster vehicles, passengers are very unhappy when they travel with slow trains
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13:17:56  <dreck> just wanted to check quickly as I'm not sure how to structure it at all.. how would you do something like this properly? rcon mypwd settingnewgame "disasters false"
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13:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the "" are wrong
13:29:39  <V453000> the "" are always wrong :D
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13:55:55  <peter1138> rcon password "command parameters"
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15:44:22  <dreck> hmm weird .. rcon thinks disaster is on but the advanced setting says its off .. and same for several other settings
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16:13:26  <dreck> meh I think I'll see if I can wait for ngc instead
16:13:41  <dreck> console seem to be conflicting with what the advanced setting window shows
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16:28:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ... with some people you really wonder how they could ever be functioning part of the society...
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16:36:27  <TELK> Hello, may I have a question of some web-programming problem?
16:36:47  <TELK> about finger.openttd.org?
16:36:59  <planetmaker> don't ask to ask, just ask
16:37:58  <TELK> I can't get the contents of finger.openttd.org by using cURL in PHP
16:38:24  <planetmaker> you want finger.o.o or finger.o.o/versions.txt ?
16:38:39  <planetmaker> however, both are available by simple query
16:38:56  <Alberth> hi hi pm, thanks for making bb nightly-aware :)
16:39:00  <TELK> mostly versions.txt, but I usually get some other pages, too.
16:39:18  <planetmaker> oh, my pleasure, alberth :)
16:40:07  <planetmaker> curl http://finger.openttd.org/versions.txt works like a charm for me. Thus must be some php oddity
16:40:49  <TELK> It is very strange because some server allows to get versions.txt, but others are not.
16:42:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i might be going out of a limb here, and say the problem is php :p
16:44:44  <TELK> For example, http://telk.kr/php/t.php this doesn't work, and http://telk.url.ph/t.php this works. two files have the same source. Very strange.
16:45:19  <TELK> and sorry for Eddi ;)
16:52:32  <planetmaker> php version, other server-specirfic config...
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16:54:04  <TELK> The thing is only finger.o.o doesn't work for telk.kr, other sites(eg. google) are works very well.
16:55:21  <TELK> even a line $fp = fsockopen('finger.openttd.org', 80, $errno, $errstr, 1); doesn't work, too. But $fp = fsockopen('google.com', 80, $errno, $errstr, 1); works.
16:57:40  <Alberth> you may want to try a php-oriented channel?
16:58:46  <TELK> If you think I shall, then I will.
17:00:06  <Alberth> I don't know, but this is #openttd, which is not really aimed at solving web access problems, afaik :)
17:01:15  <TELK> I was wondering it only have problem when I fetch finger.opentttd.org... sorry for inconvenience :)
17:01:22  <Alberth> np
17:01:50  <Alberth> just because you have a problem with a site of ours doesn't imply our site is wrong
17:02:18  <TELK> ok, i'll check further.
17:02:29  <Alberth> maybe you're doing something wrong, and eg google has added a work-around so it appears to work
17:02:47  <TELK> I'm doubting it comes from IPv6...
17:04:25  <Alberth> so, what's 80 ?
17:04:31  <Alberth> isn't that http?
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17:05:22  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's soemthing to do with mirrors?
17:06:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but i have not enough knowledge about the server setup to even begin to diagnose that
17:08:38  <planetmaker> web isn't mirrored, only bananas + binaries
17:08:57  <planetmaker> hm, and he possibly shouldn't leave that quickly :D
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17:12:33  <Alberth> obviously, the entire Internet speaks http :p
17:13:17  <Alberth> oh, lol, == in php does implicit string -> numerical conversion :)
17:13:26  <Alberth> "a" == 0   is true
17:14:56  <andythenorth> Alberth: http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
17:14:57  * Eddi|zuHause adds that to "list of things i never wanted to know about php"
17:15:06  <andythenorth> that blog post ^ is worth skimming
17:15:11  <andythenorth> mostly because it’s *so* long
17:15:21  <andythenorth> and he finds *so* many well-reasoned criticisms
17:15:24  <Alberth> I have read that
17:15:30  <andythenorth> based on what looks like actually a lot of experience using it
17:15:37  <andythenorth> I have no experience of PHP :)
17:15:47  <Alberth> keep it that way :)
17:15:59  <andythenorth> so many developers assert ‘x sucks’ with no real insight or reasoning
17:16:08  <andythenorth> it was nice to see a total demolition job
17:16:18  <Alberth> :)
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17:38:40  <deniz1a> hello. i can't connect to multiplayer server
17:40:46  <deniz1a> :/
17:43:05  <deniz1a> oh sorry, i didnt choose advertised yes
17:43:07  <deniz1a> :/
17:43:13  <deniz1a> so
17:43:40  <Eddi|zuHause> glad to have been of help.
17:43:45  <deniz1a> let's say a player has built a big network of transport in a city
17:44:34  <deniz1a> and you have no stations or anything there
17:45:09  <deniz1a> can you buy an exclusive transport right just to prevent him from earning money?
17:45:30  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27124 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_nynorsk.txt (2015-01-22 17:45:22 UTC)
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32  <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 18 changes by 2rB
17:47:12  <deniz1a> Eddi|zuHause: what do you say?
17:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the game certainly allows that
17:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> whether that's unsportsmanlike behaviour is up to the server rules
17:48:32  <deniz1a> so you can disable exclusive rights in server settings?
17:49:51  <deniz1a> there werent any options at server creation
17:50:43  <deniz1a> or do you have to use newgrf?
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17:52:02  <deniz1a> and you can prevent road vehicles with a train crossover. do people do that all the time?
17:53:30  <deniz1a> how do you prevent that?
17:54:00  <deniz1a> there is nothing you can do against that, right?
17:54:18  <deniz1a> the only course of action open in that case is retaliation
17:54:29  <deniz1a> so you block his vehicles with trains
17:55:31  <deniz1a> people wouldnt use any road vehicles in competitive games then or it's a blocking game
17:56:16  <deniz1a> you can't block trains, right?
17:56:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you should play on a moderated server
17:56:32  <deniz1a> what's a moderated server?
17:56:57  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no technical solution to people being dicks. a moderator will chime in and throw these people out and undo their damage
17:57:14  <deniz1a> but why? it's part of the game
17:57:44  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, if you want to play the game alone...
17:57:48  <deniz1a> then there should be server settings to disable these things
17:58:07  <deniz1a> or ok listen to this
17:58:37  <deniz1a> a player has a train track, minding his own business, trying to make honest money
17:58:58  <deniz1a> and you go and crossover his train track with a road
17:59:08  <deniz1a> hmm ok this doesnt work
17:59:15  <deniz1a> nevermind
17:59:35  <deniz1a> you cant make it appear like he's blocking you
18:00:44  <deniz1a> you can block ships too, although it would be expensive
18:00:57  <deniz1a> you could raise land around the dock so ships cant reach it
18:01:03  <deniz1a> or no
18:01:20  <deniz1a> you build shipyards around his dock, blocking his ships
18:02:08  <deniz1a> there are zeppelin crashes as disasters
18:02:26  <deniz1a> can you deliberately crash your plane in his airport to block it?
18:02:37  <deniz1a> no that doesnt work
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18:03:03  <Alberth> there are many ways to harass other players
18:03:10  <deniz1a> oh and there are ufos as disasters too. who thought about that heh
18:03:13  <Alberth> you need a human to decide whether it is allowed
18:03:35  <deniz1a> yeah but there arent any settings to disable them, so they're part of the game
18:03:45  <deniz1a> and it could be fun
18:04:11  <Alberth> there is no way to detect all things, that's why there is no setting
18:04:17  <deniz1a> ok
18:04:24  <Alberth> unless you count, you cannot build anything
18:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a server a few years ago that had the rule "be a dick to each other as much as you can"
18:04:29  <Alberth> that would work
18:04:55  <deniz1a> you can start ad campaigns to increase your ratings. can you also start negative ad campaigns to lower others' ratings?
18:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> no
18:05:10  <deniz1a> Eddi|zuHause: that server sounds fun
18:05:17  <Alberth> I wouldn't know
18:05:26  <Eddi|zuHause> but crashing their vehicles reduces the ratings to 0
18:05:41  <deniz1a> you mean with trains?
18:06:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. airplane crashes as well, but you probably cannot cause those
18:06:43  <deniz1a> it could be fun to make such things as game feature
18:07:18  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, it might be fun for you, but you'd quickly be alone
18:08:01  <deniz1a> i think there would be other people who would want to play like that
18:09:28  <deniz1a> well ok i just wanted to share these ideas i had
18:09:42  <deniz1a> or how about this:
18:10:05  <deniz1a> an agressive AI that blocks you and buys exclusive rights in towns you have networks
18:10:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that exists
18:10:19  <deniz1a> which one?
18:10:25  <andythenorth> it’s a pretty quick end game
18:10:33  <andythenorth> you all have no money quite fast
18:10:40  <deniz1a> admiral AI is the best one right? it doesnt do such things
18:10:41  <andythenorth> if you play aggressively
18:10:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the rondje AI did something like that
18:10:49  <deniz1a> ok
18:11:41  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, exclusive rights is a bad way to do this, because the other person can immediately buy them back
18:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> this goes back and forth until one person runs out of money
18:12:08  <deniz1a> oh you can do that? ok i didnt know that
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18:12:32  <deniz1a> but if you're financially better you could still do that
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18:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, if the game were about having the most money...
18:19:56  <frosch123> money is good, you can exchange it for coffee and chocolate
18:20:35  <frosch123> though not sure why the other guys actually take it
18:21:27  <frosch123> maybe there is noone who does both coffee and chocolate
18:21:29  <deniz1a> i like money
18:21:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but in today's economy the way you make