Log for #openttd on 22nd January 2015:
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09:38:39  <andythenorth> o/
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09:53:17  <andythenorth> where is cat?
09:56:40  <V453000>  watup
09:56:45  <V453000> cat is under the tracks
09:57:18  <andythenorth> yair V453000
09:57:27  <argoneus> good morning train friends
09:57:29  <andythenorth> so example of stupid FIRS thing because
09:57:34  <andythenorth> Iron Works makes metal
09:57:44  <andythenorth> but only 4t per 8t input, even when fully supplied
09:57:55  <andythenorth> Steel Mill is 8t per 8t input if fully supplied
09:58:03  <andythenorth> “because players should do extra work"
09:58:14  <andythenorth> eh, what?
09:58:19  <andythenorth> bad thinking by andythenorth
09:59:14  <V453000> iron works is the early 1800s or something industry?
09:59:19  <andythenorth> yeah
09:59:24  <V453000> personally I dont like the changing industries over game date at all
09:59:28  <andythenorth> no
09:59:36  <andythenorth> you iz correct
09:59:38  <V453000> one expires one becomes available :/
09:59:45  <V453000> mezz
10:00:05  <andythenorth> Iron Works is only one that does it
10:00:21  <andythenorth> fucking up the production was retrospective justification for adding it
10:00:34  <V453000> XD
10:00:40  <andythenorth> there are lots that have intro dates, these are annoying too
10:00:45  <andythenorth> broken chains before xyz
10:00:56  <andythenorth> hard to balance
10:00:56  <V453000> yes, especially the biorefinery
10:00:57  <andythenorth> boring
10:01:01  <V453000> recyclables is nice though
10:01:08  <V453000> some spicing up for late game, that I like
10:01:09  <andythenorth> reyclables is the joker in the pack
10:01:13  <andythenorth> recyclables *
10:01:15  <V453000> because it is quite independent of anything
10:01:25  <andythenorth> example of not sticking to a rigid system, because that’s too boring
10:01:35  <andythenorth> always need something different
10:01:42  <V453000> recyclables are nice
10:01:46  <andythenorth> but Iron Works isn’t
10:01:58  <V453000> quite :P
10:02:00  <andythenorth> nor is delaying some industries until 1900s, and the game rarely builds them
10:02:13  <V453000> also fish should be done something about
10:02:17  <V453000> fun cargo but no growth = boring
10:02:25  <andythenorth> solve iron works first, we talk fish after
10:02:29  <andythenorth> iron works, delete?
10:02:30  <V453000> :)
10:02:37  <V453000> replace with steel mill, easy :P
10:02:46  <andythenorth> already is steel mill in game
10:02:51  <V453000> exactly
10:02:53  <andythenorth> downside of deleting, sad players, sad danmack
10:03:07  <V453000> xd
10:03:21  <andythenorth> upside of deleting: not much, it’s only in Full FIRS, and Full FIRS is out of control anyway
10:03:24  <V453000> players are idiots, danmack needs to step up to 3D :P
10:03:31  <andythenorth> noooo
10:03:37  <andythenorth> he’s the best pixelator
10:03:48  <andythenorth> so just make production not-fucked-up?
10:03:58  <V453000> I guess
10:05:21  <andythenorth> needs a third cargo
10:05:37  <andythenorth> otherwise people will do excel spreadsheets showing why the logical choice is to use iron works not steel mill
10:05:42  <andythenorth> as more output per input
10:05:46  <V453000> XD
10:05:56  <andythenorth> hmm they use sand for casting
10:06:01  <andythenorth> and stone for smelting
10:06:19  <andythenorth> and scrap metal
10:06:23  <V453000> well, you do have two different industries producing the same thing, does it matter which one people use?
10:07:02  <andythenorth> not if I make them roughly equivalent
10:07:23  <andythenorth> let’s look at cargo flow chart
10:07:25  <andythenorth> in my head
10:07:35  <V453000> xd
10:07:41  * V453000 demands image chart
10:08:38  <andythenorth> inside of my head?  you don’t want pictures of what’s in there
10:09:14  <V453000> point taken
10:10:03  <andythenorth> sand
10:10:12  <andythenorth> because you can see the animation of the iron being cast
10:10:17  <V453000> .
10:10:23  <andythenorth> and it’s arbitrary choice, no real gameplay impact either way
10:10:24  <V453000> cargo because animation
10:10:26  <V453000> sense :P
10:10:36  <andythenorth> sense left this industry a long time ago
10:10:37  <V453000> I think sand is good actually
10:10:47  <andythenorth> scrap metal already makes metal in two places
10:10:50  <V453000> sand cant make any supplies otherwise right
10:10:54  <andythenorth> no
10:11:02  <andythenorth> well, I fucked up the chains by adding two kinds of port
10:11:03  <V453000> off with it to the foundry then :D
10:11:09  <andythenorth> so now sand can make supplies via goods
10:11:17  <V453000> yes thats fun
10:11:18  <andythenorth> err
building materials
10:11:20  <andythenorth> not goods
10:11:27  <V453000> sure
10:11:30  <andythenorth> anyway
10:11:33  <andythenorth> so fish?
10:11:40  <V453000> fish should wreck all shit
10:11:51  <V453000> nah just make the production have any chance of increasing
10:12:03  <V453000> let it accept FMSP, let it increase randomly by itself, anything :)
10:12:07  <andythenorth> then I have to build more boats
10:12:16  <andythenorth> building fishing boats is serious yak-hsaving
10:12:19  <andythenorth> need a fishing AI
10:12:23  <V453000> ._.
10:12:28  <V453000> you can build trains :P
10:12:49  <V453000> esp if you make FIRS set max distance from shore for marine industries to something like 10
10:12:51  <andythenorth> fish is the cargo I do in early game for stable income with no network jams or need to babysit
10:12:55  <V453000> slight walking etc, great stuff
10:13:02  <V453000> boaring
10:13:06  <andythenorth> you want a fish farm on land?
10:13:12  <V453000> NO :D
10:13:17  <V453000> fish farm in the sea is great
10:13:26  <andythenorth> random increase, standard ttd mechanic?
10:13:31  <V453000> but never used due tlow production
10:13:37  <V453000> standard ttd mechanic wouldnt hurt
10:13:45  <V453000> means you could grow them up to 2k but would take a long time
10:13:48  <andythenorth> eh
10:13:52  <andythenorth> so good service means more fish
10:13:53  <V453000> would actually be really nice
10:13:57  <andythenorth> that’s anti-realisms :)
10:13:59  <V453000> yay
10:14:03  <V453000> but good mechanics
10:14:04  <andythenorth> realisms, more fishing, less fish
10:14:06  <andythenorth> ho
10:14:10  <andythenorth> quotas :P
10:14:24  <andythenorth> supply exact right amount of transport, get more fish :P
10:14:30  <V453000> XD
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10:14:34  <andythenorth> not coding that
10:14:47  <V453000> I would just let it have the original industry mechanism, that would be great
10:14:54  <andythenorth> what, totally random?
10:15:01  <andythenorth> or paying attention to transport rating?
10:15:16  <V453000> the one with attention ot station ratings I suppose
10:15:28  <V453000> XD broken as fuck with your 100% station rating hax
10:15:29  <V453000> but k
10:15:40  <V453000> still better than current stuff
10:15:40  <andythenorth> I don’t use that hax
10:15:47  <V453000> me neither :)
10:15:53  <andythenorth> the 100% was filed under ‘players want options'
10:15:55  <andythenorth> :P
10:16:04  <V453000> players dont want to build 2 trains per industry
10:16:06  <V453000> good players.
10:17:08  <andythenorth> the ‘improved ratings’ are for when I play with NARS 2, and have 30 tile long trains on single-track rail with passing looooops
10:17:26  <andythenorth> now I am building 5 tile high speed freight trains on fully signalled double track
10:17:31  <andythenorth> must have been in too many coop games :(
10:17:42  <andythenorth> sad
10:18:03  <andythenorth> next game I’ll probably build overflow depots :(
10:18:18  <V453000> : D
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12:58:37  <andythenorth> oh
12:58:45  * andythenorth finds some things wrong in FIRS
12:58:46  <andythenorth> oops
12:59:06  <V453000> XD
12:59:15  <V453000> am almost done with all tracks meanwhile :)
12:59:18  <V453000> roads to go
12:59:27  * andythenorth has no idea how industry production works
12:59:36  <andythenorth> but possibly lots of secondaries are doing it wrong currently
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13:00:02  <deniz1a> hello
13:00:32  <deniz1a> what do you do with your money in the game after a while? fund primary industries?
13:00:34  <andythenorth> fortunately whoever wrote this left extended code comments
13:00:39  <andythenorth> deniz1a: yes
13:00:52  <andythenorth> that’s one of the better options
13:00:55  <deniz1a> but they cost around 30 million. is it worth it?
13:01:04  <andythenorth> ‘worth it’ is subjective :)
13:01:12  <andythenorth> you have more money than you need?
13:01:20  <V453000> you have shitload of money, worth is indeed a bad word :P
13:01:24  <deniz1a> do you get that much money from them?
13:01:54  <V453000> just stop caring about money :) you have billions after a few decades anyway
13:02:06  <V453000> build a nice, big network
13:02:14  <V453000> the more trains you can get the better :)
13:02:15  <deniz1a> yeah maybe it's more important in multiplayer
13:02:24  <deniz1a> oh and about that
13:02:49  <deniz1a> once darwin jumbo jets are available, what's the point of constructing anything else?
13:02:58  <deniz1a> they bring 100 thousand dollars in one flight
13:03:08  <V453000> exactly, quit regarding money
13:03:13  <V453000> trains are interesting and fun :)
13:03:41  <V453000> you can adjust any costs anyway, with newGRFs for example
13:03:48  <deniz1a> yeah, i just learned how to use signals. it's so much fun
13:03:51  <V453000> money will always be just a number
13:03:52  <V453000> see
13:04:23  <V453000> see how to build a big network, you might enjoy that if you want to really learn the game and play long while still interesting games
13:04:32  <deniz1a> but still, it's the main point of the game, to make profits, isn't it?
13:04:38  <deniz1a> ok i'll look at it
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13:04:44  <V453000> not exactly
13:04:58  <V453000> it is seemingly the point for beginners, but after a short while you discover that making money is very primitive
13:05:16  <deniz1a> for example, i build rail networks to carry iron to steel mill then take that steel to a factory and also get grain and livestock to that factory
13:05:17  <V453000> the game is one big sandbox, really :) you just do have to move things around :)
13:05:30  <deniz1a> and all that brings very little compared to carrying passengers
13:05:59  <andythenorth> if you’ve figured out winning at money, try a gamescript (GS)
13:06:01  <V453000> sure, that points to various things
13:06:13  <V453000> either you have newGRFs which just do not "balance" each other by costs
13:06:17  <andythenorth> it gets boring fast once you know how to make money
13:06:28  <deniz1a> gamescript? do you mean scenarios or newgrf?
13:06:30  <V453000> or you simply have some settings which let planes get extreme profits, also constructing planes is easy
13:06:38  <V453000> gamescript is a gamescript :)
13:07:20  <andythenorth> Silicon Valley and NoCarGoal are two good ones
13:07:26  <andythenorth> available from in-game content
13:07:30  <deniz1a> oh ok i saw gamescripts in the online contents
13:07:32  <andythenorth> there are also some about growing cities
13:07:41  <deniz1a> ok
13:07:47  <andythenorth> Busy Bee is a new one, in development, but there is no win condition
13:07:50  <V453000> YETI is better at growing cities already :P
13:08:06  <deniz1a> yeti has awesome graphics
13:08:19  <V453000> thanks :)
13:08:37  <deniz1a> but i think generally passenger transport fees should be reduced
13:08:49  <V453000> there are newgrfs which do that :)
13:08:57  <deniz1a> oh you did yeti? great work heh
13:08:59  <V453000> but it is all very changeble
13:09:00  <V453000> yes
13:09:17  <V453000> e.g. you can have city size multiplier at 10 and make passengers outright profittable
13:09:33  <V453000> or you can have very small towns and slow growth rate, multiplier 1 and you dont get as many
13:09:43  <V453000> you cant really create a cost which would be "balanced"
13:10:06  <deniz1a> oh ok. yes city growth would control passenger profits
13:10:46  <V453000> many things do :) even date when you start, later date, faster vehicles, passengers are very unhappy when they travel with slow trains
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13:17:56  <dreck> just wanted to check quickly as I'm not sure how to structure it at all.. how would you do something like this properly? rcon mypwd settingnewgame "disasters false"
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13:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the "" are wrong
13:29:39  <V453000> the "" are always wrong :D
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13:55:55  <peter1138> rcon password "command parameters"
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15:44:22  <dreck> hmm weird .. rcon thinks disaster is on but the advanced setting says its off .. and same for several other settings
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16:13:26  <dreck> meh I think I'll see if I can wait for ngc instead
16:13:41  <dreck> console seem to be conflicting with what the advanced setting window shows
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16:28:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ... with some people you really wonder how they could ever be functioning part of the society...
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16:36:27  <TELK> Hello, may I have a question of some web-programming problem?
16:36:47  <TELK> about
16:36:59  <planetmaker> don't ask to ask, just ask
16:37:58  <TELK> I can't get the contents of by using cURL in PHP
16:38:24  <planetmaker> you want finger.o.o or finger.o.o/versions.txt ?
16:38:39  <planetmaker> however, both are available by simple query
16:38:56  <Alberth> hi hi pm, thanks for making bb nightly-aware :)
16:39:00  <TELK> mostly versions.txt, but I usually get some other pages, too.
16:39:18  <planetmaker> oh, my pleasure, alberth :)
16:40:07  <planetmaker> curl works like a charm for me. Thus must be some php oddity
16:40:49  <TELK> It is very strange because some server allows to get versions.txt, but others are not.
16:42:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i might be going out of a limb here, and say the problem is php :p
16:44:44  <TELK> For example, this doesn't work, and this works. two files have the same source. Very strange.
16:45:19  <TELK> and sorry for Eddi ;)
16:52:32  <planetmaker> php version, other server-specirfic config...
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16:54:04  <TELK> The thing is only finger.o.o doesn't work for, other sites(eg. google) are works very well.
16:55:21  <TELK> even a line $fp = fsockopen('', 80, $errno, $errstr, 1); doesn't work, too. But $fp = fsockopen('', 80, $errno, $errstr, 1); works.
16:57:40  <Alberth> you may want to try a php-oriented channel?
16:58:46  <TELK> If you think I shall, then I will.
17:00:06  <Alberth> I don't know, but this is #openttd, which is not really aimed at solving web access problems, afaik :)
17:01:15  <TELK> I was wondering it only have problem when I fetch sorry for inconvenience :)
17:01:22  <Alberth> np
17:01:50  <Alberth> just because you have a problem with a site of ours doesn't imply our site is wrong
17:02:18  <TELK> ok, i'll check further.
17:02:29  <Alberth> maybe you're doing something wrong, and eg google has added a work-around so it appears to work
17:02:47  <TELK> I'm doubting it comes from IPv6...
17:04:25  <Alberth> so, what's 80 ?
17:04:31  <Alberth> isn't that http?
17:05:21  *** TELK [~oftc-webi@] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
17:05:22  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's soemthing to do with mirrors?
17:06:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but i have not enough knowledge about the server setup to even begin to diagnose that
17:08:38  <planetmaker> web isn't mirrored, only bananas + binaries
17:08:57  <planetmaker> hm, and he possibly shouldn't leave that quickly :D
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17:12:33  <Alberth> obviously, the entire Internet speaks http :p
17:13:17  <Alberth> oh, lol, == in php does implicit string -> numerical conversion :)
17:13:26  <Alberth> "a" == 0   is true
17:14:56  <andythenorth> Alberth:
17:14:57  * Eddi|zuHause adds that to "list of things i never wanted to know about php"
17:15:06  <andythenorth> that blog post ^ is worth skimming
17:15:11  <andythenorth> mostly because it’s *so* long
17:15:21  <andythenorth> and he finds *so* many well-reasoned criticisms
17:15:24  <Alberth> I have read that
17:15:30  <andythenorth> based on what looks like actually a lot of experience using it
17:15:37  <andythenorth> I have no experience of PHP :)
17:15:47  <Alberth> keep it that way :)
17:15:59  <andythenorth> so many developers assert ‘x sucks’ with no real insight or reasoning
17:16:08  <andythenorth> it was nice to see a total demolition job
17:16:18  <Alberth> :)
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17:38:40  <deniz1a> hello. i can't connect to multiplayer server
17:40:46  <deniz1a> :/
17:43:05  <deniz1a> oh sorry, i didnt choose advertised yes
17:43:07  <deniz1a> :/
17:43:13  <deniz1a> so
17:43:40  <Eddi|zuHause> glad to have been of help.
17:43:45  <deniz1a> let's say a player has built a big network of transport in a city
17:44:34  <deniz1a> and you have no stations or anything there
17:45:09  <deniz1a> can you buy an exclusive transport right just to prevent him from earning money?
17:45:30  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27124 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_nynorsk.txt (2015-01-22 17:45:22 UTC)
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32  <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 18 changes by 2rB
17:47:12  <deniz1a> Eddi|zuHause: what do you say?
17:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the game certainly allows that
17:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> whether that's unsportsmanlike behaviour is up to the server rules
17:48:32  <deniz1a> so you can disable exclusive rights in server settings?
17:49:51  <deniz1a> there werent any options at server creation
17:50:43  <deniz1a> or do you have to use newgrf?
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17:52:02  <deniz1a> and you can prevent road vehicles with a train crossover. do people do that all the time?
17:53:30  <deniz1a> how do you prevent that?
17:54:00  <deniz1a> there is nothing you can do against that, right?
17:54:18  <deniz1a> the only course of action open in that case is retaliation
17:54:29  <deniz1a> so you block his vehicles with trains
17:55:31  <deniz1a> people wouldnt use any road vehicles in competitive games then or it's a blocking game
17:56:16  <deniz1a> you can't block trains, right?
17:56:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you should play on a moderated server
17:56:32  <deniz1a> what's a moderated server?
17:56:57  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no technical solution to people being dicks. a moderator will chime in and throw these people out and undo their damage
17:57:14  <deniz1a> but why? it's part of the game
17:57:44  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, if you want to play the game alone...
17:57:48  <deniz1a> then there should be server settings to disable these things
17:58:07  <deniz1a> or ok listen to this
17:58:37  <deniz1a> a player has a train track, minding his own business, trying to make honest money
17:58:58  <deniz1a> and you go and crossover his train track with a road
17:59:08  <deniz1a> hmm ok this doesnt work
17:59:15  <deniz1a> nevermind
17:59:35  <deniz1a> you cant make it appear like he's blocking you
18:00:44  <deniz1a> you can block ships too, although it would be expensive
18:00:57  <deniz1a> you could raise land around the dock so ships cant reach it
18:01:03  <deniz1a> or no
18:01:20  <deniz1a> you build shipyards around his dock, blocking his ships
18:02:08  <deniz1a> there are zeppelin crashes as disasters
18:02:26  <deniz1a> can you deliberately crash your plane in his airport to block it?
18:02:37  <deniz1a> no that doesnt work
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18:03:03  <Alberth> there are many ways to harass other players
18:03:10  <deniz1a> oh and there are ufos as disasters too. who thought about that heh
18:03:13  <Alberth> you need a human to decide whether it is allowed
18:03:35  <deniz1a> yeah but there arent any settings to disable them, so they're part of the game
18:03:45  <deniz1a> and it could be fun
18:04:11  <Alberth> there is no way to detect all things, that's why there is no setting
18:04:17  <deniz1a> ok
18:04:24  <Alberth> unless you count, you cannot build anything
18:04:25  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a server a few years ago that had the rule "be a dick to each other as much as you can"
18:04:29  <Alberth> that would work
18:04:55  <deniz1a> you can start ad campaigns to increase your ratings. can you also start negative ad campaigns to lower others' ratings?
18:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> no
18:05:10  <deniz1a> Eddi|zuHause: that server sounds fun
18:05:17  <Alberth> I wouldn't know
18:05:26  <Eddi|zuHause> but crashing their vehicles reduces the ratings to 0
18:05:41  <deniz1a> you mean with trains?
18:06:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. airplane crashes as well, but you probably cannot cause those
18:06:43  <deniz1a> it could be fun to make such things as game feature
18:07:18  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, it might be fun for you, but you'd quickly be alone
18:08:01  <deniz1a> i think there would be other people who would want to play like that
18:09:28  <deniz1a> well ok i just wanted to share these ideas i had
18:09:42  <deniz1a> or how about this:
18:10:05  <deniz1a> an agressive AI that blocks you and buys exclusive rights in towns you have networks
18:10:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that exists
18:10:19  <deniz1a> which one?
18:10:25  <andythenorth> it’s a pretty quick end game
18:10:33  <andythenorth> you all have no money quite fast
18:10:40  <deniz1a> admiral AI is the best one right? it doesnt do such things
18:10:41  <andythenorth> if you play aggressively
18:10:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the rondje AI did something like that
18:10:49  <deniz1a> ok
18:11:41  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, exclusive rights is a bad way to do this, because the other person can immediately buy them back
18:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> this goes back and forth until one person runs out of money
18:12:08  <deniz1a> oh you can do that? ok i didnt know that
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18:12:32  <deniz1a> but if you're financially better you could still do that
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18:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, if the game were about having the most money...
18:19:56  <frosch123> money is good, you can exchange it for coffee and chocolate
18:20:35  <frosch123> though not sure why the other guys actually take it
18:21:27  <frosch123> maybe there is noone who does both coffee and chocolate
18:21:29  <deniz1a> i like money
18:21:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but in today's economy the way you make money is to spend money that you don't have yet
18:21:56  <deniz1a> you can get goods and services in exchange!
18:22:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's called short-selling
18:22:21  <deniz1a> how do you see chat history in multiplayer game?
18:22:29  <Eddi|zuHause> in the console
18:22:46  <deniz1a> ok thanks
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18:51:59  <andythenorth> how about FAD for FIRS 2.0?
18:52:02  <andythenorth> FIRS Ain’t Dead
18:55:35  <Alberth> it's almost FUD  :p
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18:56:41  <Wolf01> hi o/
18:56:46  <Alberth> moin W
18:57:09  <Alberth> new release of firs would probably be welcomed, imho
19:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS Isn't Renamed, Stupid
19:01:50  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:01:55  <andythenorth> that is awesome
19:02:34  <Alberth> s/Renamed/Released/
19:03:21  <andythenorth> FIRS 1.4.0 is a bit delayed
19:03:25  <andythenorth> it’s waited 13 months
19:03:34  <andythenorth> I want to make a few savegame breaking changes
19:03:39  <andythenorth> and let translators catch up maybe?
19:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> no. release it, and then make the breaking changes
19:04:14  <andythenorth> that is a nice idea yes
19:04:33  <Eddi|zuHause> if you always wait for the next changes before release, you never release anything
19:04:53  <V453000> ^
19:05:02  <andythenorth> I dunno, I think there’s no especial rush
19:05:17  <andythenorth> I already broke savegames, rather not do it twice in succession
19:05:18  <V453000> THERE IS ALWAYS RUSH :P
19:05:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the problem, just say that the release isn't compatible with previous releases
19:05:54  <andythenorth> are you all so keen to play it?
19:06:13  *** Klanticus [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:06:21  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the release isn’t compatible with previous releases, already
19:06:29  <V453000> I dont play at all anymore :0
19:06:37  <andythenorth> immediately releasing a 1.5.0 and breaking all savegames again seems a bit
19:06:55  <V453000> the old savegames can keep old firs
19:06:59  <V453000> new savegames will use new
19:07:01  <V453000> simple and easy
19:07:04  <andythenorth> compared to, e.g. finishing the changes I am mid-way through, and then maybe actually playtesting it
19:07:12  <andythenorth> releasing a broken economy seems daft tbh
19:07:23  <V453000> for server games, they dont want to reload the save just cause of updating a newgrf anyway, they can wait the few days
19:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but if you constantly break savegame compatibility, a current stable release is better than an old stable release and a bunch of incompatible nightlies where nobody is sure which one to get and where to get it from
19:07:50  <andythenorth> well
19:07:58  <andythenorth> it’s on an annual release cycle
19:07:59  <Supercheese> Iron works now takes sand, eh?
19:08:04  <andythenorth> apparently
19:08:14  <V453000> annual XD how good
19:08:25  <andythenorth> FIRS is too painful to work on more than about 2 weeks of the year
19:08:26  <andythenorth> really
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19:08:33  <V453000> NUTS has version 79 after almost 3 years :P
19:08:43  <V453000> xd
19:08:45  <V453000> hm
19:08:59  <andythenorth> 79.0.0? :o
19:09:07  <V453000> 0.7.9 :)
19:09:15  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:09:19  <V453000> but it just means there were 78 precedessors
19:09:37  <andythenorth> I didn’t look at FIRS, but it’s less releases than that
19:09:39  <Alberth> live on the edge, make the next one 0.7.10  :p
19:09:50  <V453000> no, want to get to 1.0.0 :P
19:10:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you make 1.0.0 when it's ready, not when you had 100 releases
19:10:17  <V453000> originally I thought I never will, but now lets hope 9.9.9 is unreal :P
19:10:26  <V453000> exactly Eddi, I dont :)
19:10:51  <V453000> I like this numbering, period :P
19:10:54  <Eddi|zuHause> OpenTTD went from 0.7 to 1.0
19:11:09  <V453000> I could also give it names without numbers? :D
19:11:14  <V453000> NUTS Bridgette
19:11:14  * andythenorth should add the strings so translators can catch up
19:11:17  <V453000> NUTS Antoinette
19:11:23  <V453000> NUTS Claire
19:11:52  <V453000> ALSO, perhaps it will reach full 32bpp conversion with 1.0.0 :P
19:12:33  <Alberth> with a bit of careful planning.... :)
19:12:57  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS Bertha, CETS Dora, ...
19:13:00  <V453000> no need to be careful, can postpone shit or release everything at the last moment XD
19:13:35  <Alberth> 0.9.9    1.0.0!
19:14:37  <V453000> no, just 0.9.9 Changelog: Added SECOND 32bpp engine!, 1.0.0 changelog: Added the remaining 150 32bpp engines!
19:14:56  <Alberth> haha  :)
19:16:48  <Supercheese> UKRS addon set does (did) that with versions
19:17:05  <V453000> XD
19:17:09  <Supercheese> version Gobi
19:17:38  <Supercheese> version Eggnog
19:17:40  <Supercheese>
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19:18:18  <V453000> :)
19:19:22  <V453000>
19:22:09  <Alberth> oh dear, I am so much behind, it's nuts!
19:22:39  <V453000> :) it is actually quite fun for me to read the changelog from the start XD
19:23:20  <Alberth> I can imagine, bringing back memories :)
19:23:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not actually sure i understood what eggnog is. it sounds like Eierlikör, just without alcohol, so they can spike it with alcohol.
19:23:42  <Alberth> I had the same experience reading all my freerct blog entries that I made
19:24:01  <V453000> :)
19:24:23  <V453000> 0.1.2 	Completely re-ordered the code of the whole newGRF so it can compile now without running out of action2 IDs. 	Added Cola, Beer and Plastic tankers for toyland - now with colours! 	Added cargo-specific Railflatbed3 Sweets.
19:24:28  <V453000> this was seriously fucked up :D
19:24:50  <frosch123> does freerct meanwhile use yeti graphics for customers?
19:24:59  <Supercheese> I barely ever encounter eggnog with alcohol
19:25:23  <Supercheese> although that's probably highly region-dependent even within the states
19:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> this is clearly a thing that does not exist at all in germany
19:25:44  <Supercheese> yeah, likely an American thing
19:26:18  <Alberth> it doesn't frosch123, I suspect they don't want to come, given there are only a few shops available
19:26:25  <frosch123> Supercheese: wiki lists luxembourg :o
19:26:53  <Supercheese> it does?
19:27:11  <Supercheese> I'm not immediately seeing that
19:27:12  <frosch123> Alberth: maybe they are more keen on work :)
19:27:25  <Supercheese> I see Englang, then Canada & US
19:27:28  <Supercheese> England*
19:27:38  <frosch123> i was reading the german version
19:27:45  <Supercheese> ah
19:27:52  <frosch123> maybe only germans think that luxembourgians drink that :p
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19:31:29  <Alberth> hmm, is "job satisfaction" really "Zufriedenheit am Arbeitsplatz" in German, Dutch uses "Arbeidsvreugde" and I would expect that German also has a single word for it
19:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause> you are not supposed to be happy at the job. :p
19:33:14  <Alberth> currently, I am quite not happy at my job :(
19:33:17  <frosch123> Alberth: "Arbeitsfreude" is casual/slightly oldish. "Zufriedenheit am Arbeitsplatz" is modern bureaucracy-german
19:33:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i've ever heard "Arbeitsfreude"
19:35:32  <Alberth> Arbeidsvreugde is also quite old-ish
19:35:43  <frosch123> actually, Arbeitsfreude is also less specific. you also have "Arbeitsfreude" if you do crafting/gardening on every weekend
19:36:01  <frosch123> while the other one refers specific to work only
19:36:13  <Alberth> as in paid work :)
19:37:36  <Alberth> Don't know of a word to express joy of work in your free time, in Dutch
19:37:38  <Eddi|zuHause> "arbeit" is derived from protogermanic "urbo" which means "slave". it's also the root of the russian word "robota"
19:38:01  <frosch123> there are actually two "Arbeitsfreude" and "Arbeitswut"
19:38:21  <Eddi|zuHause> "Arbeitswut" is more like "workaholic
19:38:22  <Eddi|zuHause> "
19:38:33  <frosch123> yes, but it also works for work at home
19:38:59  <frosch123> like you start doing things, and only notice 10 hours later that you are still doing stuff
19:39:28  <Alberth> hmm,  I played CIV like that the first time :p
19:39:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i played CIV like that the next 300 times as well :p
19:40:46  <Eddi|zuHause> but i would use "-wut" in a context where people do nonsensical stuff out of the inner pressure to do *anything*
19:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> like throw out everything in the assumption that it is trash, without thinking about whether it may still be useful
19:43:27  <frosch123> it does not need to be non-sense, it's enough that the person does not notice doing stuff
19:44:16  <Eddi|zuHause> well, being non-sense is usually the point where other people notice it :)
19:47:53  <andythenorth> what sense does sunshare make?  In the FIRS thread
19:47:58  <andythenorth> I have literally no idea
19:48:10  <andythenorth> there’s non-English-native, and then there’s simply non-English
19:48:17  * Supercheese agrees
19:48:36  <andythenorth> the only thing I can understand is ‘he/she wants something'
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19:48:52  * andythenorth goes back to styling tables
19:49:13  <Alberth> sunshare doesn't make a lot of sense in many threads :)
19:49:28  <Supercheese> Yeah, I had the same experience in fake subways
19:49:40  <Supercheese> "explain everything please" "errr, ok..."
19:50:17  <Supercheese> Poor ReadMes, they never get read
19:50:54  <Alberth> he uses a translator probably
19:51:23  <andythenorth> off-topic, so glad I learnt at least rudiments of shell scripts
19:51:49  <Alberth> off-topic?  after a discussion on job satisfaction?
19:51:55  <glx> oh you stopped recreating wheel every time ?
19:52:12  <andythenorth> I stopped typing long commands :P
19:52:14  <Supercheese> The topic is a lie, much like the cake
19:52:34  <andythenorth> most of my scripts are just ‘rm foo && mv src/foo foo’ or whatever
19:53:31  <Alberth> I call all of them "mk", so it's easy to find in a directory
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19:55:14  <Eddi|zuHause> just call them Makefile?
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19:55:48  <andythenorth> call them sudo
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19:56:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know why, but every day around 19:00 to 22:00, youtoube is too slow for 720p
19:56:45  <andythenorth> you mean the busy part of the day? o_O
19:56:52  <frosch123> was the same for me from sun to tue, was fixed yesterday
19:57:18  <frosch123> though it was actually too slow for 360p :)
19:58:44  <frosch123> so maybe they switched servers
19:58:59  <frosch123> gave frankfurt a new one, and gave leipzig the old broken one
20:00:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, network topology is weird anyway. german telekom ever worked so hard not to be connected to DE-CIX
20:00:49  <glx> or peering issue, or ISP doing silly things
20:01:38  <andythenorth> ISP traffic shaping
20:01:56  <andythenorth> 19:00 - 22:00 is when everybody goes home and watches
20:03:54  *** JGR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:04:09  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's probably a play to convince people why net neutrality is a "bad" thing (in the eyes of the ISPs)
20:05:23  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: well, peering is the entire problem. because telekom has like 90% of the customers, they say: hold on, when you want to peer, you have to pay us.
20:06:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and additionally to that, you can't peer at a place where everybody else peers, like DE-CIX
20:06:32  <glx> yeah I know same here
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20:50:39  <Alberth> andythenorth:  does "Food processing plant"  accept food or produce it?  there doesn't seem to be other strings
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20:51:13  <andythenorth> Produce
20:51:30  <Alberth> k
20:51:39  <andythenorth>
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20:53:13  <Eddi|zuHause> compound words are difficult. you never know whether they describe what it is, what goes into it, or who made it, or... :p
20:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "Kinderdöner"
20:54:27  <andythenorth> it’s 100% identical in principle to the one in default tropic
20:54:29  <andythenorth> only input cargos vary
20:54:39  <andythenorth> a sensible newgrf author would use the existing TTD strings
20:55:18  <Alberth> "Food processing"  suggests to me it accepts food, no idea whatwould come out of the factory in that case
20:55:41  <andythenorth> what’s it called in TTD? o_O
20:55:51  * andythenorth would look but is writing edit-in-place in html :P
20:56:00  <andythenorth> slightly work
20:56:33  <Alberth> STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_FOOD_PROCESSING_PLANT                         :Food Processing Plant      <-- same
20:57:11  <Alberth> but I never had to translate that :)
20:57:20  <frosch123> hmm, "Food Processing Plant" vs. "Food Processing Animal"?
20:58:04  <Alberth> in V his definition those are quite exchangable
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20:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i never quite understood the usage of that word, ever since i saw "power plant" in sim city for the first time
20:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it also didn't match our english lessons in school, where it was "power station" or somesuch
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21:06:41  <dreck> hi
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21:09:21  <andythenorth> Alberth: I’ll swap it to use TTD string
21:09:26  <andythenorth> sorry if you already translated it :)
21:09:42  <Alberth> :)
21:10:38  <Alberth> STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_FOOD_PROCESSING_PLANT                         :Voedselfabriek   <-- it'll be the same translation :p
21:10:57  <andythenorth> I need to fix my makefile :(
21:11:00  <andythenorth> so it’s not stupid
21:11:42  <dreck> heh
21:11:52  <dreck> reminds me of "computers only as smart as we make them" quote
21:13:41  <frosch123> "i am not worried about computers becoming smarter than humans, i am rather worried that they agree to meet in the middle" <- saw that today
21:14:32  <dreck> heh not sure I have heard that one but makes sense
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21:52:08  <deniz1a> hello, when transporting cargo, do you get more money if you transport to a more distant industry?
21:54:04  <frosch123> indirectly
21:54:16  <frosch123> you get money for vehicles running
21:54:26  <frosch123> you do not get money for vehicles loading
21:54:38  <deniz1a> so you get more money if you just loop the train around before delivering?
21:54:51  <frosch123> having longer distances lowers the time percentage for loading
21:55:08  <frosch123> no, the travel distance does not matter
21:55:21  <frosch123> it's the distance between source and destination station
21:55:28  <deniz1a> oh ok so when it comes back to load again it will already be ready to be transported
21:55:29  <frosch123> if you do a detour, it's your loss :)
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21:56:00  <frosch123> basically you get money for transporting cargo fast
21:56:15  <frosch123> on longer distances you can reach a higher average speed
21:56:17  <deniz1a> ok
21:56:31  <naliao> just do
21:56:37  <naliao> nothing but mail
21:56:39  <frosch123> on direct routes you are also faster
21:56:41  <deniz1a> and i was always looking for industries that are close to each other so i can transport quickly...
21:57:00  <naliao> thats what i do
21:57:04  <frosch123> for nearby industries the same holds
21:57:05  <naliao> is that the wrong thing to do?
21:57:10  <frosch123> you need to make the loading time shorter
21:57:19  <frosch123> so on shorter routes you need vehicles with less capacity
21:57:22  <naliao> farm > plant > town done right
21:57:38  <frosch123> for very low capacities trains become inviable, because the engine is too expensive
21:57:38  <deniz1a> ok thanks
21:58:13  <deniz1a> ok so trains should be sent far away so there is time for the source to produce again
21:58:36  <frosch123> usually you give cargo transport a "full load" order at the source
21:59:07  <frosch123> then you need to adjust the vehicle capacity (i.e. train length) so that loading time is not a significant part of the total travel time
21:59:11  <deniz1a> yes i do that but because i send them to a close destination when they come back empty they wait to reload
22:00:32  <deniz1a> ok thanks i'll go back to the game
22:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you want to have the empty train arriving when another train is just ready to leave
22:01:04  <Eddi|zuHause> because during the time where no train is waiting, your rating drops, so you get less cargo
22:03:49  <dreck> heh I always never understood why other people build massive 6-platform long stations when just 1-2 medium length ones would do for the exact same industry output
22:03:55  <Eddi|zuHause> so if your train takes 40 days to make a trip (and 40 days back), and you want it to load in 20 days, then you need 5 trains on the line. if the industry produces 180 per month, then you need around 120 capacity per train
22:04:50  <smoke_fumus> dreck: sometimes it's about syncing. and transfer. but if that's dead-end station for a coal mine....yeeaaaaa, we have a problem
22:05:01  <dreck> yep ^
22:05:09  <dreck> houston we have a problem! << hehehe
22:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you can make the loading time shorter if you use more, shorter trains, but it may turn unprofitable, because only the engines create costs
22:05:29  <smoke_fumus> Eddi|zuHause: hence why you need to use trucks for coal
22:05:44  <dreck> or use the small locomotive :)
22:05:47  <smoke_fumus> or at least sync up 2-4 coal mines with one train and pull coal from all of them to single electricstation
22:05:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is all possible
22:06:07  <smoke_fumus> that usually nets at least few thousand per year
22:08:14  <planetmaker> hi hi
22:08:46  <dreck> hi planetmaker
22:10:42  <Eddi|zuHause> smoke_fumus: coal mines often have an output of 300 or more per month, and then even short distances are really really profitable by train
22:11:43  <Eddi|zuHause> or you play FIRS with the 100% rating setting, then everything goes crazy
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22:30:41  <dreck> well since ngc is likely still on business I'm going for now
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22:46:41  <deniz1a> does production of primary industries increase with time?
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22:47:57  <FLHerne> deniz1a: Yes, if well-served
22:48:44  <FLHerne> deniz1a: Will increase on average if service is Good, decrease if Poor
22:48:47  <deniz1a> you mean transported?
22:48:52  <deniz1a> oh ok
22:48:58  <FLHerne>
22:49:46  <FLHerne> Oops, I shouldn't be capitalising good and poor, it does relate to transported rather than station ratings
22:50:00  <Supercheese> Ffffffuuuu
22:50:05  <Supercheese> Gamescripts still can't have cases
22:50:15  <Supercheese> I desperately need accusative case for the translation....
22:50:32  <andythenorth> also bye
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22:54:10  <Wolf01> 'night
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