Log for #openttd on 29th December 2015:
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02:04:56  <Keridos> glx, got it working, thanks a lot, having a blast with my friends now :)
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02:56:44  <Keridos> is there a way to replace vehicles in all trains without making them longer?
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03:06:12  <Supercheese> Enable Wagon Removal
03:06:26  <Supercheese>
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03:46:24  <Keridos> Supercheese: thanks :D
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03:51:07  <Supercheese> you're most welcome :)
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07:14:48  <Flygon_> <Flygon_> Had a brownout
07:14:48  <Flygon_> <Flygon_> Lost my work on OpenTTD
07:14:48  <Flygon_> <Flygon_> :(
07:14:52  <Flygon_> THE WORST FEELING
07:19:02  <Supercheese> ya need a battery backup power supply
07:19:13  <Supercheese> it's an excellent investment
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07:45:37  <Flygon_> Supercheese: Yeah, every one of my PCs has one inbuilt
07:45:42  <Flygon_> Except the desktop I was playing on xP
07:45:45  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
07:45:52  <Flygon> TOOD: UPS
07:45:57  <Flygon> So I can also retain Internets >_>
07:47:23  <Flygon> I forgot how fun mountain railways are
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08:12:12  <peter1138> Many people just flatten them...
08:13:04  <peter1138> Town in the way between your two distance map points? Raze it!
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08:13:14  <peter1138> *distant
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09:01:46  <Flygon> peter1138: That's silly
09:03:26  <peter1138> Many people are.
09:04:17  <Flygon> I mean
09:04:23  <Flygon> Half the point of the game is making stuff pretty
09:04:33  <Flygon> Even if it can be slightly less practical
09:05:00  <Flygon> Granted, part of the reson people DO do this, is because OTTD's tunnel/bridge functions are underdeveloped
09:05:09  <V453000> watup
09:05:59  <peter1138> Flygon, shh!
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09:07:05  <Supercheese> can't even get signals in tunnels & bridges, much less diagonals or simutrans-esque underground layer
09:08:47  <Supercheese> anyway, to quote: Good night train friends
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09:12:25  <Flygon> peter1138: Just an observation. I don't mean any offence!
09:12:50  <Flygon> I actually forgot you were prolly a dev
09:13:48  <V453000> peter1138 is just a patch vending machine
09:14:05  <V453000> you mention something and he links you to a patch he wrote
09:14:13  <peter1138> Flygon, I didn't mean that :)
09:14:39  <Flygon> Still, you do get my point!
09:14:40  <Flygon> xP
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10:06:08  <Wolf01> o/
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10:38:14  <Flygon> Shit. I just hid a locomotive
10:38:19  <Flygon> How do I unhide a locom- nvm
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10:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> there should be a "show all hidden" button
10:46:12  <Flygon> Yep
10:46:13  <Flygon> There is
10:46:20  <Flygon> Sorry for my dumb x.x
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10:48:39  <V453000>
10:48:43  <peter1138> You can hide locos?
10:49:57  <Flygon> Yeah
10:49:58  <V453000> in the purchase menu
10:50:54  <Flygon> Yeah
10:50:57  <Flygon> Annd craaaaap
10:51:07  <Flygon> I just accidentally sent everything for servicing
10:51:15  <Flygon> We really need a "Cancel Servciing" buttonb
10:51:38  <V453000> you are really good at hitting random buttons
10:52:15  <Flygon> That's what she said
10:52:16  <Flygon> :3
10:55:30  <Rubidium> Flygon: that's called "the undo knob"
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10:56:27  <Flygon> Where is it? O_o
10:58:29  <Wolf01> i hope you arent't serious
10:58:39  <Wolf01> *aren't
11:00:38  <Flygon> I am
11:01:17  <Rubidium> Flygon:
11:01:45  <Flygon> Oh
11:01:45  <Flygon> No
11:01:50  <Flygon> I don't mean ANYTHING like that
11:02:06  <Flygon> I just meant cancelling any existing Manual Servicing orders for a train group
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11:02:40  <V453000> the servicing should mainly work like
11:02:58  <V453000> "trains start requiring servicing and visit depot whenever they meet one, like normally"
11:03:09  <V453000> not "send all trains to depots immediately and fuck up everything"
11:03:30  <Wolf01> eh, when you try to cancel the order, trains already moved in a wrong part of the infrastructure in search of a depot, so it will cause jams, there you really need the undo knob
11:03:53  <Flygon> Wolf01: Nah, this was done in pause mode
11:04:06  <Flygon> V453000: It's a "Breakdowns Turned Off" game
11:04:15  <Flygon> Because I'm a cheap bastard
11:04:15  <V453000> does not matter
11:04:22  <V453000> you can use servicing even with no breakdowns
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11:05:14  <Flygon> I know xP
11:05:16  <Flygon> Just.... derp
11:05:21  <V453000> ...
11:05:39  <Flygon> Sorry
11:05:50  <Wolf01> eh, you learned to not clickfest the hard way
11:06:02  <Flygon> Nah, I'm just twitchy
11:06:12  <Flygon> I've had shaky hands since I was a child
11:06:23  <Flygon> It makes using glass drawing tablet a pain because
11:06:26  <Flygon> The screens are so smooth
11:06:27  <V453000> causes some serious cloverleaf diagnosis
11:06:38  <Flygon> That they capture all my shakiness too
11:06:46  <Flygon> I already did the cloverleaf :U
11:07:03  <V453000> yes, hinting it might be a problem in the head, not hands :P
11:07:30  <Flygon> Wait, now you lost me
11:07:33  <Wolf01> (i usually miss the right icon in the windows app bar, like starting IE when i want to run notepad, three times in a row)
11:08:45  <V453000> I basically built an uber stronk argument that based on you building cloverleaves, the hands are not the problem. Because cloverleaf = pinnacle of stupidity
11:08:58  <Flygon> What's wrong with this? O_o
11:09:10  <V453000> literally everything
11:09:12  <Wolf01> the cloverleaf
11:09:30  <Flygon> It's relatively high speed, and works well with realistic acceleration
11:09:36  <V453000> deadlockable, terrible in size, terrible in throughput, terrible in expandability
11:09:46  <Flygon> And will handle the freight chucked at it pretty well
11:09:52  <V453000> sure
11:09:52  <Flygon> I've never had it deadlock
11:10:05  <V453000> yeah pointless to explain
11:10:45  <Flygon> It's just difficult to see how it deadlocks without it actually deadlocking
11:11:04  <Flygon> And I've not run long enough freight inside the actual leafs to make that a huge possibility
11:11:04  <V453000> tracks join before other tracks leave, simple as that
11:11:05  <Rubidium> V453000: how is it deadlockable?
11:11:14  <Flygon> Did you look at the screenshot?...
11:11:14  <planetmaker> moin
11:11:30  <Flygon> The traffic doesn't enter into exiting traffic
11:11:30  <V453000> ok not exactly deadlock, just problematic
11:11:34  <V453000> sorry about that. :)
11:11:36  <Flygon> The cloverleaf is designed explicitly not to do that
11:11:38  <Rubidium> because the "trivial" deadlock where you have trains in a circle is not possible because in one direction there is no join-before-split
11:11:50  <V453000> hi pm, I discovered I am able to create a subproject of NewGRFs at devzone? XD
11:12:12  <Flygon> Menta planet
11:12:20  <V453000> I created BRIX project, hope it is fine with stuff
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11:12:29  <peter1138> Meh, flat junctions with path singles, easy peasy.
11:12:50  <peter1138> signals too
11:13:17  <peter1138> do we have diagonal bridges/tunnels yet?
11:13:32  <Flygon> ( A clearer look at the cloverleaf as it is in the current game)
11:13:50  <V453000> this shit just hurts.
11:14:25  <Flygon> The design? :P
11:14:28  <V453000> I am fine with it if someone says they were just having random fun or people unaware that it is bad, but justifying it is just seriously mind boggling
11:14:41  <Flygon> I'm just a casual player
11:14:48  <Flygon> I'm going more for aesthetics
11:14:58  <Flygon> And a lot of the more 'efficient' junctions also tend to be really ugly
11:14:58  <V453000> this is aesthetical for you?
11:15:08  <Flygon> And since we can build flexible tunnels and bridges yet
11:15:16  <Flygon> This's the closest I can get to a stack interchange
11:15:37  <Flygon> Even then, a stack interchange would never work in 1885. No tractive effort. >_>
11:16:07  <Flygon> The Cloverleaf already had enough problems with the inclines involved. It only got put in because the flat interchange was getting too congested
11:16:12  <Flygon> It is to me
11:17:35  <Flygon> Tho
11:17:41  <Flygon> If I took a wider screenshot of the network
11:17:47  <Flygon> You'd probably want to bark at me pretty hard
11:18:33  <Flygon> "Vehicle not Available"
11:18:43  <Flygon> I really gotta autoreplace some of these vehicles
11:23:26  <Flygon> However
11:23:42  <Flygon> For something I have had deadlock in the game through incredibly bad "I really didn't think this through"
11:24:37  <Flygon> V453000: Prepare to scream
11:25:16  <V453000> not much wrong with that at all
11:25:37  <Flygon> Really? O_o
11:25:44  <Flygon> It's the only part of my map that's actually deadlocked
11:26:12  <V453000> pickup trains waiting?
11:27:09  <Flygon> That, and poor signal planning
11:27:11  <Flygon> And track planning
11:27:41  <Flygon> Ended up having to do lots of small adjustments
11:28:01  <Flygon> This contains what it did have
11:31:22  <Flygon> Ended up having a pretty bad deadlock... and I only noticed because I wondered what broke the cloverleaf
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11:36:44  <Flygon> But, yes
11:37:02  <Flygon> For IRL use, Cloverleafs are pretty useless, even if you build a non-weaving one like I did :D
11:37:46  <Flygon> Unless you really really want to use up a lot of spare land and have very very easy grades for the vehicles involved... but that's pointless in this day and age
11:50:58  <Wolf01> which road set are you using?
12:01:10  <peter1138> did lego worlds turn out to be any good? :P
12:01:24  <Wolf01> it's boring right now
12:01:34  <Wolf01> waiting for multiplayer
12:20:49  * Eddi|zuHause wonders what weird definition of "RL" Flygon has
12:21:00  <Flygon> Actual real world
12:21:04  <Flygon> Wolf01: American Roadset
12:21:41  <Wolf01> does it change with the years or it stay like that also in 2000+?
12:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: well, they built some cloverleaf-like junctions on the berlin outer ring railway
12:22:13  <Flygon> Too steep to build a stack junction?
12:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that was started in the 1930s and finished in the 1960s or 70s
12:23:42  <Flygon> Ahh, the grades involved definitely would've been a factor, then
12:24:48  <Flygon> Uhm
12:24:53  <Flygon> I'm not too familiar with Berlin's geography
12:24:59  <Flygon>,13.341096&z=11&t=h&q=Berlin Can't find it x.x
12:25:12  <Eddi|zuHause>
12:25:50  <Eddi|zuHause> there's also an "inner" ring, from the 1880s
12:27:18  * Flygon nod
12:27:23  <Flygon> We had 'some' inner and outer ring railways
12:27:26  <Flygon> But by ring, I mean...
12:27:33  <Flygon> They really weren't rings <_>
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12:28:07  <Wolf01> o/
12:28:18  <Alberth> moin
12:28:23  <peter1138> A ring is useful.
12:28:36  <Flygon> Ignore the Yellow and the Green lines
12:28:39  <__ln__> makes you invisible
12:28:47  <peter1138> Exactly.
12:28:48  <Wolf01> hey, i was writing that
12:28:57  <Flygon> Inner Circle is the only real circle we ever had. We now have the City Loop, though.
12:29:22  <Flygon> Alemein line combined with the 'Outer Circle' above it created the second 'loop'. But, again, it really wasn't a circle
12:29:42  <Flygon> It's worth noting that true circles can't really be made. That map ommitted the gigantic bit of water in the way.
12:32:13  <peter1138> bridges!
12:32:14  <peter1138> tunnels!
12:32:28  <Flygon> We're not building an underwater station
12:32:32  <Flygon> We're not nipponese
12:33:00  <Wolf01> a bridge inside a tunnel
12:33:12  <Flygon> Ahh
12:33:16  <Flygon>,13.303609&z=14&t=h I think I found it, Eddi
12:33:17  <Wolf01> or a suspended tunnel
12:33:29  <Flygon> Wolf01: Sydney did that with one of their road tunnels, kinda
12:33:46  <Flygon> They submerged pre-fabbed segments, watertight
12:33:52  <Flygon> Then connected them together
12:33:57  <Flygon> And... yeah
12:34:05  <Wolf01> bah, i hate when RL beats fantasy... we should catch up
12:34:53  * Wolf01 is thinking about a catapult for ships
12:37:11  <Alberth> water resistance needs fixing then probably
12:37:58  <Wolf01> water, i want to launch ships through air to reach impossible places
12:40:52  <Wolf01> i remember when my strategy was to teleport cruisers on the "one tile water" pond in the middle of the enemy base in red alert using the chronosphere
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13:17:42  <peter1138> hmm
13:17:53  <peter1138> high wing aircraft with retractable landing gear look weird...
13:22:09  <__ln__> like this one?
13:23:08  <peter1138> hmm
13:23:15  <peter1138> a little
13:23:30  <peter1138> but light aircraft really
13:26:03  <peter1138> Dihedral (upswept wings) can be used to increase stability on low-winged aircraft.
13:26:09  <peter1138> heh
13:26:19  <peter1138> i did that just for the highlight, sorry :p
13:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i read a sentence similar to that a few days ago when i tried to figure out how to build airplanes
13:30:06  *** tneo- is now known as tneo
13:30:48  <Eddi|zuHause> but flying planes in KSP is odd... you need an autopilot with altitude and direction control, and a way to fast forward until you're at the location you want
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13:52:44  <Flygon> __ln__: The Cancer programme didn't improve public perception of Qantas
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14:10:26  <debdog> are there plans to implement a feature that allows to convert trains inside a depot if the depot is altered from one rail type to another?
14:10:57  <__ln__> it's safe to say: no.
14:11:11  <debdog> bummer :)
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14:11:20  <debdog> why not?
14:11:30  <Wolf01> there are some universal rails grfs, but you till have to convert the trains by hand
14:11:31  <V453000> you can kind of do it already
14:11:38  <V453000> yeah as Wolf01 says
14:11:41  <Wolf01> *still
14:11:43  <debdog> replacing trains (esp. their orders) is a PITA
14:11:53  <V453000> use universal rail like PURR :)
14:11:58  <V453000> and you can do it automatically
14:12:05  <debdog> GRFS?
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14:12:17  <V453000> NewGRF files
14:12:21  <V453000> "mods"
14:12:33  <Wolf01> downloadable content
14:12:39  <debdog> ok
14:13:00  <V453000> DLC XD
14:13:13  <peter1138> £4.99 per pack
14:13:24  <peter1138> £9.99 for basesets though
14:14:32  <debdog> I wouldn't mind doing manually as long as the orders are copied.
14:15:43  <Wolf01> orders are already copied also in the base game, you only need a bit of attention
14:16:06  <debdog> like, send all trains into depots, replace railways with another type and each depo that has trains in it opens a window where I can replace the engine and wagons manually but the orders would stay the same
14:17:02  <debdog> I can do that if there's only one train inside the depot, yes
14:18:48  <debdog> but what if there's more than one? I'd need a depot for each train plus, beforehand converting the rails, I'd need to sort of arrange this situation somehow
14:19:54  <V453000> if you use universal rail, you convert whole network to universal rail, autoreplace to whatever you want, and then convert to the final track type ... or keep universal if you like it XD
14:20:14  <debdog> also: "Note that you can only convert one train at a time using this method, but you may also convert the empty depot back to the old railtype so you can convert another train using the same depot. " convert it back?
14:20:42  <debdog> I'd need to have two tracks of different types as well
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14:21:20  <debdog> ok, I'll have a look at the GRFs
14:23:30  <Alberth> don't simply upgrade existing track and continue the game
14:24:07  <Alberth> the entire upgrade is then mostly a no-op, better find a newgrf that doesn't force you to upgrade in that case
14:24:41  <Alberth> I always start building new tracks with the new railtype, possibly eventually replacing existing routes
14:24:51  <Alberth> it's much more fun playing that way
14:26:52  <debdog> TBH I'd love to stay on std. electrified rails. but right now the engines for those are being removed over time
14:27:59  <Alberth> indeed, default set forces you to upgrade :(
14:32:50  <V453000> I like replacing to various kinds of things in NUTS :)
14:36:51  <peter1138> iceweasel, 850MB resident, 20.2G virtual... well done
14:37:07  <peter1138> monodevelop, 2.4G res, 5.5GB virt
14:37:11  <peter1138> bloatware :(
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15:42:09  <Rob0817> hi @ all. does anyone know how to include DB SET XL on a dedicated linux server
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15:45:21  <Rob0817> in other words: how to include newgrf files that are not downloadable.
15:47:10  <Alberth> manually install them, as explained in the readme, and probably the wiki
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15:48:18  <Alberth> note that most likely you won't get many users, many already fail to understand the download content, let alone manual install procedures
15:49:46  <Alberth> "manual install" mostly means "copy it into the right spot", in a "newgrf" directory iirc
15:51:37  <Rob0817> the file is in the right place i think. but how does the server recocnice the new grf file
15:53:57  <Alberth> simplest solution is to make a map or scenario at a desktop, and load that in the server
15:54:28  <Alberth> alternatively, setup newgrfs etc at the desktop, and copy the openttd.cfg file
15:54:42  <Alberth> remember to replace windows \ to / in newgrf paths
15:55:24  <Alberth> oh, and copy it after shutting down the server, as server exit will write the openttd.cfg
15:55:29  <Rob0817> thanks for your help. we will try this.
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16:40:58  <Wolf01> oh, nice... i can't rotate a rectangle :|
16:41:03  <Wolf01> i'm so happy :|
16:41:39  <peter1138> Rotate it 180°
16:41:50  <Wolf01> thank you
16:42:38  <Wolf01> i need to figure out how to rotate it 90° without doing weird things with vectors
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16:52:52  <Wolf01> o/
16:53:00  <andythenorth> Wolf01: are you drawing the rectangle, or is it a bitmap?
16:53:08  <Wolf01> drawing
16:53:14  <Wolf01> bitmaps are easy
16:53:26  <andythenorth> is the shape in any kind of container?
16:53:37  <Wolf01> the bounding box, used for collisions
16:53:54  <andythenorth> I would separate concerns
16:54:13  <andythenorth> 1 set of shape definitions, in an xy space oriented conventionally
16:54:26  <andythenorth> i.e. x goes left-right, y goes top-bottom or so
16:54:38  <andythenorth> then I would define a rotation on some kind of container
16:54:54  <andythenorth> and patch the shape drawing routine, then use trig to move all the points
16:55:34  <andythenorth> possibly there’s a way to do it using matrix transformations, but I’d use trig, and just iterate each x,y pair in the shape :P
16:55:52  <andythenorth> you need ideas from someone like Eddi to do it ‘properly’ :)
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16:56:39  <andythenorth> or rasterise the shape at compile time, and just rotate the bitmap :P
16:57:57  <Wolf01> i don't really need to draw it, it's just for debug purpose, the main problem is to have the right sizes when checking for collisions
16:59:13  <andythenorth> “trig solves all game problems”
16:59:21  <andythenorth> all / most /s
17:00:20  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i would try to help you, but i'm unfortunately gone.
17:00:55  <Wolf01> i'm gone too, my brain exploded trying to figure out how to handle the internal coordinates system
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17:06:12  <debdog> ok guys, had a trial with Universal Rail Type and it worked quite well. thanks for the hint
17:11:50  <andythenorth> Wolf01: it’s just triangles :D
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18:45:49  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27483 /trunk/src/lang (esperanto.txt norwegian_bokmal.txt) (2015-12-29 19:45:36 +0100 )
18:45:50  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:51  <DorpsGek> norwegian (bokmal): 1 change by cuthbert
18:45:52  <DorpsGek> esperanto: 1 change by LaPingvino
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19:48:08  <Aphid> Does anyone have up-to-date information about the 'conversion rates' of ECS industries? E.g. the wiki notes that glass is 1t coal & 2t sand => 5t glass.
19:57:23  <Aphid> I'm not entirely sure about them either... am I supposed to use the 'construction' vector? hmm...
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20:10:38  <Aphid> I've also managed to do something weird; created an empty array that is at the same time not an empty array.
20:19:50  <Aphid> Squirrel question then. If I create an empty array, then append zero or more elements to it using its 'append' function. After this, how can ''if(myArray == [] || myArray.len == 0)' return false, yet trying to access a random element return 'the index 0 does not exist' (which only happens logically upon accessing a random element of an empty array)?
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20:31:21  <Rubidium> is it an array or a dictionary?
20:33:24  <Aphid> local types = []; <-- that should be an array right?
20:44:17  <Aphid> I think I may have realized what's going on here. 'types == []' will check if 'types' points to the same memory location as a locally created array '[]' does, which it will never do, so this is 'always false'. Then, 'types.len' is actually the memory location of the function 'len', and not the length of 'types'.
20:44:25  <Aphid> So 'types.len() == 0' works
20:47:32  <Aphid> So in ECS, can you have at most 'x' tourists on the map, where x is the sum of the max. productions of each of the 7 'tourists centre' layouts?
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20:54:27  <Aphid> Hmm... so if I just say 'transport x%' of generated tourists, no roadblocks happen.
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21:33:07  <Wolf01> 'night
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