Log for #openttd on 9th May 2016:
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00:00:09  <ST2> sometimes it's a natural accident
00:00:17  <ST2> other times are trollers :(
00:00:32  <ST2> but admins there can act fast ^^
00:01:11  <ST2> anyway, that's why BTPro is known as a safe place to play... since respecting server rules xD
00:03:02  <ST2> and about that, taking OpenTTDcoop - BTPro, n-ice and CityMania, are safe places
00:03:35  <ST2> reddit servers are war zones sometimes... despite that few admins there try their best
00:04:34  <ST2> but we, BTPro, n-ice and CityMania, only have goal servers
00:04:41  <ST2> more competitive
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00:07:07  <Flygon_> #openttd!
00:07:08  <Montana_> i have a server too, but not competitive at all; iwill try to put some goals to it via script, but i have not much free time :P
00:07:09  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
00:07:15  <Flygon> Uhm, wait, you're currently talking
00:07:18  <Flygon> I'll ask later
00:07:19  <Flygon> >_>
00:07:20  <Flygon> <_<
00:07:45  *** JezK [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has joined #openttd
00:07:46  <Montana_> whye is there a "_" on the right of my nam?e
00:08:23  <ST2> you lost connection and joined as an alternative nick
00:08:38  <ST2> usually with +"_"
00:08:40  <Flygon> Alternatively, you grew a tail
00:08:48  <Montana_> hahaha
00:08:54  <ST2> Flygon knows it too ^^
00:08:55  <Flygon> Prepare to be uncomfortable in car seats
00:09:29  <Montana_> XD
00:10:34  <ST2> Montana_, to see how Soap works, type /join /r/openttd
00:10:43  <ST2> it's reddit's channel
00:11:23  <ST2> Montana_, to see how Soap works, type /join #/r/openttd
00:11:29  <ST2> forgot the # ^^
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00:29:10  <supermop_> hmm its 1904 and now finally have some 40kmh trams, but all these 20kmh trams are still perfectly good
00:29:51  <supermop_> nowhere to cascade them to that is reasonably reachable by tramway
00:30:30  <supermop_> unless i build a 160 tile long cross country tram line and have them take a few years to drive over there
00:32:01  <Flygon> What Tramset?
00:32:04  <supermop_> this is why i liked the model train like parts of locomotion - you could 'pick up' a train or tram off its track and set it down somewhere else
00:32:10  <supermop_> 2cc trams
00:32:26  <Flygon> ...2CC has 40km/h Trams in 1904?
00:32:45  <supermop_> a few
00:33:10  <supermop_> the kolkata tram is the first to be worth reworking an already timetabled service though
00:34:09  <supermop_> i was using the richmond sprague tram which holds 80ish people and does 20kmh, and the few other 30 and 40kmh trams hold far fewer until now
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00:35:27  <supermop_> so on one line i have those guys parking in the depot once they finish their run, while a kolkata tram makes a test run to see how it's dwell times and travel times work out with the network
00:36:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just edit the timetable manually ticking off 1 day from each travel time, then see the late counter
00:36:28  <supermop_> was gettting pretty good service as is, so i will probably replace with fewer total trams, leaving 10 of these ~12yo trams surplus to requirements
00:37:04  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i'm usually only replacing trams when they get old
00:37:10  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: it's twice as fast so i imagine ill save more than 1 day each leg: 20kmh is painfully slow
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00:38:49  <supermop_> normally i also let trams run out their natural life to avoid messing up the interference of different lines, but i just extended the south terminus about 8 tiles to a new station in a newly grown neighborhood
00:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause> "real" trams still only go like 20km/h in city centers where they share access with other traffic
00:39:02  <supermop_> so i have to re-timetable anyway
00:39:31  <supermop_> somehow no one in this 1900s town owns a horse so trams can haul ass
00:40:33  <supermop_> about 5 years ago i extended the line north but ws running that segment as a shuttle service to avoid re-doing the schedule
00:42:12  <supermop_> also accounting for getting stuck behind freight, my cross country trams now make worse time to the north coast than my new 45kmh steamships
00:43:43  <supermop_> speaking of which, i think it's time to cascade this 32kmh paddle boat to a more provincial route
00:48:15  <supermop_> wish i could ship the trams to the other coast
00:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> add a "teleport" button to depots?
00:49:48  <supermop_> sure - lose all the cargo onboard and maybe pay a fee
00:50:08  <supermop_> or something like has a pool of "used" sold vehicles
00:50:36  <supermop_> so if i sell a bunch of kirby pauls in town x
00:51:01  <supermop_> myself, or a competitor, can get a deal on gently used kirbys in town y
00:51:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i was almost gonna try to implement that once. maybe
00:52:34  <supermop_> i mean we already suspend disbelief that the train manufacturer can instantly deliver you a shiny new ICE to a remote mountaintop depot inaccessible by rail, road, or sea
00:52:57  <Eddi|zuHause> helicpoter...
00:53:15  <supermop_> so it's not like it's that "unrealistic" to ship a train that thaat at least already exists on the map
00:54:27  <Eddi|zuHause> there were already AIs that sent trains to depot and sold them after delivery, and bought a new one at the pickup station, instead of waiting for a return trip
00:55:01  <supermop_> could even maybe have a feature like they used to have in gran tourismo, where maybe a couple crappy used locomotives and stock are seeded into the pool at game start
00:56:15  <supermop_> 2cc set would be more fun and less overwhelming if you only could buy locomotives from your selected region, but occasionally a rare foreign one would be available 2nd hand
00:56:30  <supermop_> "OpenTTD: Train Colector"
00:56:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you get that implemented in a reasonable way
00:57:13  <supermop_> also, "fun" might be a bit of a stretch in my usage above
00:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i understood "fun" like in "Sheldon Coopers's Fun with Flags"
00:59:41  <supermop_> sometimes, i will try to limit myself to as few depots as possible though, and cascade or deliver trains by sending them through various sidings, freight lines, and non-revenue track to reach some distant part of the network
01:00:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that makes no sense for trams
01:00:17  <supermop_> tramways do not really work for that
01:00:48  <supermop_> also, even in melbourne, i often saw trams being driven around on flatbed trucks
01:02:08  <supermop_> now in 1904, it's not reasonable that i would have road nor trucks suited to carrying a tram across country, but i do have ships and trains
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01:05:32  <supermop_> right now i'd need to parallel my longest mainline with tramway to get these guys to the town that could best use them
01:06:07  <supermop_> also 15 years in and i still need to be really careful with money - testament to good newgrf set up?
01:06:13  <Eddi|zuHause> some tram depots have (or had) a rail connection, so trams could be delivered by train
01:07:14  *** Montana_ is now known as Montana
01:07:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there is a way to balance the game...
01:08:09  <supermop_> firs 2 in a hot country, with antelope, feels balanced at this point in th game
01:08:37  <supermop_> also, i am not using .se or japanese houses, so not making billions off of passengers yet
01:08:48  <supermop_> and 256x256 map
01:09:49  <supermop_> i guess i will replace this suburban fringe route served by a single 12 passenger steam bus with 10x 80 passenger trams
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01:10:32  <supermop_> just involves sending the trams across a 4 track level crossing on my busiest stretch of rail
01:10:53  <ST2> supermop_: please, play on some online OpenTTD communities: and I'll say, with goals ingame: you can grab, BTPro, n-ice or Citymania: this means ~50% of OpenTTD players
01:11:31  <ST2> Openttdcoop can be considered as a playground for track layout geeks, and I respect that
01:12:46  <ST2> in case you want to grab a measure:
01:13:14  <ST2> because the rest are online servers because couple friends play online
01:13:41  <ST2> please... give some respect to the communities that make this game alive
01:14:37  <supermop_> ST2: i am not sure my navel-gazing style of play is best suited to most of these servers, but i sometimes am on a citybuilder server while i am at work and have it running in the background
01:14:40  <ST2> I respect all devs work, newgrf's and GS's makers
01:15:19  <ST2> when someone dnt like what's online, starts a new community
01:15:24  <supermop_> i can't really keep up when they are busy though because i maybe able spending only a few minutes per hours building new lines
01:15:47  <ST2> "followers" will appear
01:16:47  <ST2> among our server machines, we have a Factorio server running
01:17:04  <ST2> and it's like that: it's 1 map... don't like, dnt play
01:17:19  <ST2> game has a SP option
01:17:24  <ST2> simple as that
01:18:05  <supermop_> hmm digging a tram tunnel to other side of town seems like a big infrastructure investment just to get these trams to the other side of the tracks
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01:19:03  <ST2> supermop_, do you use a client that can show Cycle skips? talking about CB ^^
01:19:23  <supermop_> no idea what that is ST2
01:19:28  <ST2> exactly
01:20:26  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: just stop the trains for a second?
01:20:29  <ST2> BTPro client, n-ice client, Citymania client, all "hacking" revision to be compatible with 1.6.0 (now)
01:20:33  <ST2> shows that
01:21:06  <ST2> but all devs know what's a cycle skip
01:22:00  <ST2> weird to someone defend so hard cargodist when dnt even knows what's a town cycle skip
01:22:04  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: timetable too tight, took me 18 months in game to get the scheduling correct, and each of these trams will probably take 7 days to make it across
01:22:09  <Eddi|zuHause> (i feel like i'm missing half of a conversation. none of what ST1 says makes any sense)
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01:22:51  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: normal, I moved my pc to home, and was a continuations of talks with supermop_ ^^
01:22:53  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: play frogger with each tram :p
01:22:57  <ST2> sorry for that :)
01:24:02  <supermop_> ST2: my typical goal when i play is that it be reasonably possible that any passenger could conceivably buy a ticket to any station on the network
01:24:26  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: basically I was saying to supermop_ that BTPro community runs 28 servers and wanted him to show where cargodist could e  a gameplay enhance
01:24:55  <ST2> ~but show ingame, not theorethical ^^
01:25:02  <ST2> -~
01:25:08  <supermop_> a train that runs through 4 towns, and at each town every passenger gets off and new passengers get on
01:25:09  <Montana> i didnt know was cycle skip(if i really know what are you saying) till i downloaded some of these clients
01:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the connection...
01:25:26  <supermop_> that seems frustrating to me
01:25:37  <ST2> @logs
01:25:37  <DorpsGek> ST2:
01:25:49  <supermop_> in that case you may as well just only build point to point shuttle services
01:25:56  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that log is dead.
01:26:02  <ST2> well, I use a bouncer that records stuff... but all stuff must be there ^^
01:26:21  <ST2> if not there, what
01:26:27  <ST2> can I do?
01:26:40  <supermop_> why have a train line that runs 100s or even 1000 tiles, when every passenger travels only to the next town
01:27:06  <ST2> [02:25:10] <Montana> i didnt know was cycle skip(if i really know what are you saying) till i downloaded some of these clients <<--
01:27:09  <ST2> :)
01:27:37  <Montana> you mean the data that appear in city window?
01:27:38  <supermop_> where i am incentivized to run every train non stop to the furthest station away
01:28:02  <Montana> supermop_:which server are you playing in
01:28:02  <ST2> Montana: yeah
01:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: i don't think there's a useful discussion to be had. like trying to answer the question "how would acknowledging evolution help me in my daily life?"
01:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause> where there's so many things wrong even with the premise...
01:28:56  <Montana> but thats kinda cheating, in the sense as its showing internal mechanics, which are not shown in vainilla releases
01:29:14  <supermop_> anyway i understand that in a city building server you have to dump every possible passenger in your town,
01:29:30  <supermop_> but i do not find building networks like that to be much fun
01:29:33  <Montana> logic-philosophical discussion here -- that gset exciting XD
01:29:46  <Montana> gets*
01:29:59  <ST2> Montana: cheating is abusing the internal mechanics... knowing them it's N OT
01:30:05  <ST2> see the difference?
01:30:47  <supermop_> so even when i am chasing cargo goals in busy bee, i often build up a normal passenger network taking advantage of the bits of rail originally built for various goals
01:30:53  <Flygon> Magic Bulldozer is justifable cheating
01:30:58  <Montana> I said "its like cheating". I dont mean its cheating. but you can get and advantage others maybe can not
01:31:21  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: to me this discussion is more like arguing with a lumberjack about raising a bonsai tree
01:31:26  <ST2> supermop_: that's GS stuff... sometimes similar goals appear
01:31:44  <ST2> supermop_: not fault of the game
01:32:03  <supermop_> one person wants a tiny tree that looks nice, one person wants a big tree that provides good lumber
01:32:07  <ST2> I was talking to Montana about show to players GAME info
01:33:01  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't the game alredy show town growth speed?
01:33:05  <supermop_> neither is really wrong i guess, but i find the bonsai more fun
01:33:17  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, town grows every x days
01:33:19  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: it shows
01:33:31  <supermop_> GS can reveal more info if pertinent
01:33:31  <Montana> but not in the deep some clients do
01:33:39  <Eddi|zuHause> so what's different then?
01:33:52  <ST2> what doesn'r show is how many cycles are skipped when no spot found to place a new house
01:33:59  <supermop_> i am liking villages is villages gs because it doesn't show any extra data
01:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, like encountered blocked road or something?
01:34:37  <ST2> many stuff can cause a cycle skip for house build
01:34:46  <Montana> It really shows much info, some of them i really dont understand
01:35:03  <ST2> what our "fan client's" show is that skips count
01:35:21  <supermop_> ST2: someone playing the game for 20 years generally would intuit when road layout is hindering growth though ?
01:35:32  <ST2> that means: less CS's, more house, better for CB servers
01:36:09  <ST2> supermop_: what road layout you use for towns?
01:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: you won't believe the number of times i heard "wait, i played this game for <X> years, i never knew <Y>"
01:37:09  <supermop_> usually better roads, sometimes i generate a map where each town chooses a random layout
01:37:11  <ST2> you can check forums at BTPro, n-ice and specially Citymania for it
01:37:33  <ST2> because 3x3 is crap, 2x2 (in all town) is even worst
01:37:40  <ST2> but start is a 2x2
01:38:20  <supermop_>  i would use the grid layouts more, but they are too rigid, and i would appreciate other grid sizes, like 2x4 etc
01:38:50  <ST2> always use spyral (aka swastika)
01:39:32  <supermop_> i try to let towns build on their own, but when i do build for them i usually build various 2xN rectangles, not always aligned
01:39:57  <ST2> ah, build a road = build a house
01:40:13  <ST2> it's on settings, let or not town build roads
01:40:51  <ST2> but, when a town tries to build a road, it's on same loop as to try to build a house
01:41:05  <supermop_> yeah i always let towns build roads, never let them build their own level crossings
01:41:24  <ST2> read above ^^
01:42:45  <ST2> we (BTPro) currently have easy, medium and hard servers.... all in OpenTTD ground
01:42:45  <supermop_> i find with towns forbidden to build roads, i may come across some town i forgot about for 10 years and now it's a 10x10 dense block of high rises with no outskirts and looks stupid
01:43:49  <ST2> supermop_: personally I think you're like Samu - you both live on distinct worlds ^^
01:45:12  <supermop_> i have no idea what that guy is up to
01:45:18  <supermop_> AI stuff i guess
01:45:27  <ST2> you said you have a server - we have 28, now, and we learn with each of them (logs, errors, etc, etc)
01:46:42  <ST2> and you can see that we test YETI 0.1.1, we have a BB server
01:46:46  <ST2> online
01:46:58  <ST2> who else has a BusyBee server online?
01:47:39  <ST2> we are running with FIRS 2.1.0
01:47:48  <ST2> even CB's
01:48:50  <ST2> and yes, was tested very hard before made them on our public servers ^^
01:50:25  <supermop_> ST2: i didnt say i have a server
01:50:47  <ST2> you said it earlier ^^ (I think )
01:54:37  <supermop_> i sometimes connect to one, but not my own,
01:54:42  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2, supermop_: i think the answer to your "world view" discrepancy can be found here:
01:55:02  <supermop_> sometimes it is a btpro, sometimes reddit
01:56:06  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: tell me the last game you made, I'll tell mine... agree?
01:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: err, what?
01:56:49  <ST2> and by last game is: start and reach the goal set on there ^^
01:57:17  <ST2> all games has a goal
01:57:41  <ST2> something that was created when 1st game appeared
01:58:02  <ST2> ALL games have goals
01:58:06  <ST2> period xD
01:58:35  <ST2> so, Eddi|zuHause: tell me the last game you made, I'll tell mine
01:59:04  <Eddi|zuHause> what if the goal is to have no goal?
01:59:34  <Flygon> What is the goal is gaol?
02:01:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i used to have a screenshot of my last game, but the host server went offline
02:01:15  <ST2> [02:59:38] <Eddi|zuHause> [03:59:04] what if the goal is to have no goal? <<-- really?! for that I go to the bingo, buy a card and leave
02:01:33  <ST2> that's exactly what you said :S
02:01:53  <Flygon> When I go into an OTTD game, I just waanna make a pretty network
02:02:00  <Flygon> Then I'm too lazy to screencap it
02:02:06  <Flygon> And nobody ever sees my work
02:02:24  <ST2> OpenTTD is built with a goal - max perf rating on nyear 2050
02:02:36  <ST2> sometimes we forgot that
02:02:52  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: yes, and that is the most stupid goal ever, which is why nobody plays for it
02:02:57  <supermop_> ST2: transport tycoon had that goal
02:03:19  <ST2> not saying we have that goal on our servers ^^
02:03:47  <ST2> only pointing that OpenTTD is a goal server, stupid or not ^^
02:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: when i play a game, it's an open-end find-something-to-do type game
02:04:13  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: the end state does not matter, there is not going to be an end.
02:04:14  <supermop_> by the time OpenTTD was started, in TTD and TTDP it had become clear that many people were not quiting their games at 2050
02:04:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: it just stops when i get bored
02:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ... or distracted
02:04:48  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: did you evere reached the "open-end find-something-to-do type game" goal?
02:04:59  <ST2> you can start a server with it
02:05:08  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: that is by definition an unfulfillable goal
02:05:13  <supermop_> ST2: i play a map until i cannot add more to it without it becoming ugly, or until i get bored of it
02:05:21  <ST2> again, start a server with it
02:05:32  <Eddi|zuHause> why would i start a server?
02:05:36  <ST2> and make that goal
02:05:51  <ST2> people who reaches it, will win
02:05:59  <supermop_> if i have 2 weeks of slow time at work, maybe bad weather, not feeling creative, ill run a game continuously in that time
02:06:04  <Flygon> ST2: Why do people play Minecraft?
02:06:22  <Flygon> I'll grab my lunch while you answer that
02:06:27  * Flygon wanders off to the kitchen
02:06:35  <ST2> FlygonÂŽ: why ppl play AoE2HD
02:06:44  <Flygon> For kicks
02:07:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried to play that, but i couldn't get it to run on wine
02:07:31  <supermop_> then, if a project comes up, my fiancee and i go out somewhere, i get an idea for something to make, anything that has me doing something else for a few days, ill leave that game and forget abot it
02:07:35  <ST2> still waiting for an online server from Eddi|zuHause
02:07:45  <ST2> with the goal he set ^^
02:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: you should wait here until i reach that goal. do not move anywhere.
02:08:28  <Flygon> Eddi: I can't wait for that open source AoEII engine...
02:08:35  <Flygon> AoEIIHD is too resource hungry
02:08:39  <ST2> so, no server... usually blank shells :S
02:08:43  <Flygon> And the 3D renderer is blurry af
02:09:00  <Flygon> Dunno why they couldn't port over the original softblitter
02:09:46  <ST2> gladly our OpenTTD community had it well... when I say I make something... I do
02:10:22  <supermop_> ST2: playing openttd is a way for me to avoid working towards my goals
02:10:36  <ST2> still waiting for Eddi|zuHause's server
02:10:45  <ST2> with the goal he said ^^
02:14:13  <ST2> but ofc, I usually dnt ask much from who dnt even know the mechanichs where they're admin - I learnt CS's from Nova's (now CM community)
02:15:16  <ST2> and I wan't the first here trying to explaing clycle skipe
02:15:31  <ST2> skips*
02:16:52  <supermop_> ST2: the more the internal mechanics seem obvious, the less interesting the game seems to me
02:17:44  <ST2> supermop_: it's an opensource game... what you want to hide?
02:18:48  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: nobody ever knows everything.
02:19:33  <ST2> I can show the players all mechanichs - I never thought something get angry for some communities include them on clients
02:19:54  <supermop_> i dont get angry about it
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02:20:04  <supermop_> but think of watching a clock vs watching a puppy
02:20:57  <ST2> supermop_: I think like this: OpenTTD online = real persons
02:21:16  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: but if i want to reach a goal, i play a sudoku. i play openttd to watch trains move.
02:21:30  <ST2> I dnt expect a "clock" or a "pupy" playing
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02:22:26  <supermop_> ST2: watching other playing interact witth the map in novel ways has interesting potential
02:22:39  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: exactly: if you like competitive Openttd... play goal servers, if not, as you said... "i play a sudoku"
02:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> why would i ever want to like competitive openttd?
02:23:46  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: check the game fundaments ^^
02:24:15  <supermop_> but doesn't watching 10 other players focused entirely on "solving" the game is like watch 10 fancy clocks - the kind with spinney  turbillon
02:24:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if i want to know the game fundament, i read the source code.
02:24:55  <ST2> and you didn't understood the game fundaments on the game code?
02:25:00  <supermop_> more fun than watching one clock for sure, but 10 puppies jumping around unpredictably is more fun
02:25:06  <ST2> that's sad :(
02:25:48  <supermop_> i think Eddi|zuHause knows the source code more thoroughly than some of the devs
02:25:53  <Eddi|zuHause> sure. if that's what you want to believe.
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02:27:44  <ST2> I know source code too, I was talking about game itself: even on SP the objective/goal is to compete with opponent compa nies and reach the maxg ratin on 2050
02:27:51  <ST2> that's the game base
02:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: what if i told you that in 20 years of playing, i never ever reached the year 2050?
02:28:33  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: try starting in 2030
02:28:37  <ST2> and now I ask, Eddi|zuHause, what's OpenTTD goal?
02:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: what's the meaning of life?
02:29:32  <ST2> ok, I'll make it for human reading: Eddi|zuHause, what's OpenTTD goal?
02:29:50  <ST2> I mean vanilla
02:30:04  <supermop_> ST2: what is the goal of a model railroad
02:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> vanilla is meaningless without chocolate.
02:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: have you watched the video i linked?
02:30:36  <ST2> ok, I can't talk more of OpenTTD here
02:31:03  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause, have you played OPenTTD at all?
02:31:15  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: have you ever studied buddhism?
02:31:16  <supermop_> I just want interesting organically growing towns
02:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: the goal is not to have arrived at the goal. but to travel the way to the goal, whether you arrive or not.
02:32:06  <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as you arrive at the goal, the goal becomes meaningless
02:32:17  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: it's sad, comming from you...
02:32:20  <Eddi|zuHause> so better travel without ever arriving
02:33:01  <ST2> ok, lemme corrct
02:33:08  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: it's sad, even comming from you...
02:37:45  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: now this youtube channel is just autorolling while i mop my kitchen
02:38:12  <Montana> lol
02:38:23  <Montana> Eddi is right
02:38:34  <Montana> arriving to the goal is the funny thing
02:38:56  <Montana> once you reach it, whye continue playing?
02:51:55  <ST2> ok Eddi, I screwed things up ^^
02:55:53  <ST2> probably you'll edit or reset the post - I dnt mind ^^
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03:00:15  <Eddi|zuHause> iirc you can delete your post when nobody answered yet
03:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> also, how or why would i edit other people's posts?
03:01:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not a moderator, and even if i were, only offensive posts would need moderating...
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03:33:22  <supermop_> ??
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06:19:57  <andythenorth> best docs ever
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08:04:54  <Wolf01> o/
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08:23:59  <Flygon> These EMUs have decent tractive effort but holy crap the horsepower sucks :D
08:24:44  <Wolf01> that's why you shouldn't put unpowered wagons but only other EMUs :P
08:24:56  <Flygon> They're all powered.
08:25:10  <Flygon> JNR 52 Series
08:25:13  <Flygon> Using the Japan set
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09:10:15  <peter1138> whoop whoop
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10:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and another thread "derailed"... :/
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11:02:15  <Eddi|zuHause> also, lately there seem to be an influx of bots who just reply something meaningless like "that is a very good point" onto random threads
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12:25:12  <Samu> give me suggestions for a function name which description is: Will the AI config in the given company slot be starting soon?
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13:14:22  <supermop> hello
13:15:24  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: nice to see polite bots i guess
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13:31:55  <Samu> oh no suggestions
13:34:47  <Samu> IsStartable?
13:35:08  <Samu> is that even a word? startable?
13:42:50  <Samu> IsStartingUp?
13:43:09  <Samu> IsStartingSoon? WillStart? CanStart?
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13:43:41  <Samu> in openttd code style, how should I name this function?
13:44:20  <Samu> Will the AI config in the given company slot be starting soon?
13:50:36  <Samu> IsStartDelayed?
13:50:47  <Samu> IsDelayed?
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13:58:01  <Samu> IsEligible?
13:59:58  <Samu> IsEligibleAiID
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14:34:30  <Samu> hi alb
14:34:33  <Samu> Alkel_U3:
14:34:35  <Samu> oops
14:34:43  <Samu> Alberth:
14:38:03  <Alberth> o/
14:39:32  <Alkel_U3> well, also hi :P
14:40:40  <supermop> V453000: you inspired/provoked me into writing way to much on graphic design criticism and theory
14:42:16  <Samu> hi alkel
14:43:16  <supermop> personally i feel like starting with and then over analyzing you work in the UI first is a great way to kill your motivation
14:43:47  <V453000> <3
14:44:33  <V453000> it's a part of graphic design in general imo, you always need to be able to tell at which point are your thoughts reasonable and at which point are you obsessed with the topic
14:44:40  <V453000> it is unavoidable problem
14:45:02  <V453000> we can be chasing details in factorio forever
14:46:14  <Alberth> better chase critters, isn't it?
14:46:37  <V453000> well those are in infinite world and numbers :P
14:46:55  <Alberth> definitely forever thus :p
14:47:12  <supermop> at first i thought his guy icon was supposed to be Obama, because of the oddly explicitly drawn cheekbones and haircut
14:47:58  <supermop> and I guess Obama is a better icon of executive power than some random bald guy
14:48:28  <supermop> but more I look at it I feel that's just a coincidence
14:48:43  <V453000> yeah
14:49:02  <V453000> I should try to make my own set of icons in order to stop bullshitting around and show actual example
14:49:08  <V453000> $time
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14:52:44  <supermop> idk, i've never had that much of a problem with any icons, even those i consider bad design
14:53:57  <supermop> or rather i would suggest someone start with the 'fun' stuff - little houses and trains you can then see growing and running in game to keep you motivated
14:54:38  <Samu> give me some feedback, about the icons next to the configs
14:55:17  <supermop> If i was focused entirely on a better pause button i'd just keep iterating that until i got burnt out on it
14:55:30  <Samu> hmm im not entirely happy about that warning sign
14:55:47  <supermop> what does it mean? that something is broken?
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14:55:52  <V453000> yeah, that's where you need to identify your obsession at correct time supermop :P
14:56:03  <Samu> it means that's a human player
14:56:24  <Samu> if you start a game, that slot is immediately taken by a human player
14:57:08  <supermop> then why does it have an ai in it?
14:57:37  <Samu> because the human company can die, leave game, go to spectator, bankrupt, then the ai can start
15:00:36  <supermop> do servers have AI players
15:00:36  <supermop> ?
15:01:00  <Samu> yes
15:01:15  <Samu> this is a screeshot in game
15:01:38  <Samu> derp, its not
15:01:43  <Samu>
15:01:45  <Samu> this one is
15:02:12  <supermop> seems like so many of the servers have some kind of competitive goal running, and AIs wouldn't know how to compete with that
15:02:45  <Samu> that newspaper icon is supposed to tell you that AI was a randomly chosen AI
15:03:21  <supermop> nonetheless I guess philosophically AIs should be able to do whatever a human player can
15:04:02  <supermop> Samu: maybe dice is better than a newspaper - what does news have to do with random>?
15:04:21  <Samu> there is no dice, or i don't know if there's one
15:04:24  <Alberth> news is not random?  :p
15:04:42  <supermop> there are dice emoji
15:04:54  <supermop> patch openttd to support emoji
15:05:07  <Alberth> make a sprite with dice
15:05:10  <supermop> or draw a die icon/glyph
15:05:39  <supermop> at that size in monochrome might take 10 minutes, if you don't get lost in navel gazing like I do
15:06:26  <Alberth> monochrone gives you only two options, not much choice to consider for each pixel :)
15:06:27  <V453000> AIs are pointless shit that just makes clutter on the map and wrecks player
15:06:30  <V453000> 's CPU
15:06:37  <V453000> I see zero reason to make an AI
15:07:09  <Alberth> critter AI?
15:07:16  <V453000> ? :D
15:07:24  <supermop> how many px square do you want it to be i'll draw you one to throw in as an addition to base set, i guess there are other places where game may want to denote randomness
15:07:29  <Alberth> no idea what it should do :p
15:08:10  <Samu> normal zoom level it's about hmm... max height of font size
15:08:11  <Alberth> perhaps annoying the player, defending the land against the invasion
15:08:31  <supermop> V453000: i wouldn't mind a competent team mate AI
15:08:57  <Samu> what is the max height of this font?
15:09:17  <V453000> yeah, I don't see anybody making an AI which makes at least decent train networks
15:09:28  <Samu> sec, let me get line height
15:09:30  <Samu> brb
15:11:05  <supermop> V453000: some seems to make networks, decent or not, and i admit that is impressive
15:12:27  <Samu> looks like the line height is 14
15:12:29  <supermop> but i would want the ai to do more of the chore work
15:12:41  <Samu> then there's the rectangle line
15:12:56  <supermop> i'll make the network, ai can help manage it
15:13:27  <Samu> ok it's 14 -3 - 1 = 10
15:13:35  <Samu> 10 pixels height
15:14:04  <supermop> 10 is plenty for dice i think
15:14:08  <Samu> if i zoom x2
15:14:16  <Samu> it's probably 20?
15:14:22  <Samu> gonna try
15:15:45  <Samu> i'm not sure
15:15:59  <Samu> dont really understand how the zoom x2 code works
15:16:17  <Samu> but for x1 is 10
15:16:34  <supermop> better to draw a 10x10 die that looks blocky at larger sizes than a 20x20 sprite that looks muddy when shrunk
15:17:09  <Samu> let me check the warning sign size
15:17:59  <Samu> 10x10 :)
15:18:01  <Samu> lel
15:18:35  <Samu> need to find the warning sign zoomed
15:18:40  <Samu> where is it
15:21:05  <supermop> ok
15:22:24  <supermop> if some color or greyscale is ok i can round the edges a bit, otherwise its doable in one color if you want a text glyph like the train icon
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15:27:57  <Samu> can't find the zoomed warning sign
15:29:45  <Samu> i thnk i only need 1 color
15:29:58  <Samu> erm, i mean, 1 palette
15:30:07  <Samu> or something like that
15:30:17  <Samu> PAL_NONE
15:30:40  <Samu> not sure i understood your question
15:31:07  <Samu> I won't be painting the dice with different colors
15:32:10  <Samu> i either display the dice, or i don't
15:32:37  <Samu> i will use it on a gray background and that purpleish one
15:33:26  <Samu> I thought of changing purple to black background, but I'm not sure if I can do that
15:33:33  <Samu> not enough skills
15:34:59  <supermop> where do you want the sprite, you have a thread for this patch?
15:36:45  <Samu> uhm, i got a thread yes
15:37:07  <Samu>
15:38:14  <Samu> the grey background is the AI Debug window
15:38:25  <Samu> grey/silver
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15:50:02  <Samu> Alberth: my code for calculating width is too disperse :(
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15:51:20  <Samu> copy paste
15:52:00  <Samu> DrawWidget is becoming messy
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15:59:14  <Alberth> add a new method?
16:05:08  <Samu> switch / case is making me repeat part of the code, hmm i dunno
16:05:16  <Samu> how else can i do it
16:05:58  <Montana> hi, could i aks if a request is 	plausible?
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16:12:42  <Samu> heh, now that i got the dice.png, what do i do with it :(
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16:27:16  <Alberth> Montana: don't ask to ask
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17:09:46  <Montana> I would like to request a filter on message history; i mean, for economic news, global news, internal messages from the company, etc
17:10:25  <Montana> its some anoying when they appear 1 thousand times "this vehicle has became too old"
17:10:45  <Montana> and due to this kind of spam, i can not get a registry of interesting news
17:15:03  <Alberth> so you're expecting that $random person here is bored enough to work for you, fixing issues he doesn't see as a major problem him/herself?
17:22:13  <Ketsuban> If vehicle senescence notifications are a bother, I believe there's a setting to turn them off.
17:22:23  <Montana> No, I think that could be a nice feauture. nothing more.
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17:32:34  <Wolf01> there is a setting to turn off the unwanted notifications (full article, news ticker only, no notification)
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17:35:30  <frosch123> hoi
17:35:46  <Wolf01> quack
17:37:01  <Alberth> hola
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18:36:18  <Alberth> o/
18:37:20  <andythenorth> o/
18:39:36  <andythenorth> supermop: so what are you painting next for Iron Horse? o_O
18:40:09  <andythenorth>
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19:15:37  <supermop> was going to do monorails but i find "freelance" odds and ends easier logistically right now
19:16:49  <supermop> so if there is another straightforward llama or antelope ill take a look
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19:19:10  <Samu> I got a Dice.png now
19:19:23  <Samu> and now, what can I do to put it to use?
19:19:45  <Samu> seems trivial, but I never done this before
19:20:11  <Samu> thx btw supermop
19:24:40  <Samu> seems like I got to append it to trunk\media\extra_grf\openttdgui.png
19:25:01  <Samu> but how
19:25:47  <glx> adding it in the png is easy
19:26:56  <glx> editing the nfo is less easy
19:32:20  <supermop> andythenorth: what's most-needed at the moment
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19:33:49  <Samu> openttdgui.png I just copy the dice image and paste it in?
19:34:20  <Samu> that image is numbered
19:35:22  <Alberth> counting manually is hard
19:35:47  <Alberth> adding a number in the sprite reduces counting errors
19:37:14  <Wolf01> o/ andy
19:37:16  <Samu> sprite number 177 is the last one
19:37:23  <Samu> so i add this and call it 178?
19:37:40  <Samu> how do I write 178? must have been a tool
19:38:34  <Wolf01> andythenorth: I'm building the trailer for the moc, and the first thing I noticed is that I'm not able to build a rigid structure X'D
19:38:39  <andythenorth> :P
19:39:02  <andythenorth> supermop: comparing this list to in-game narrow gauge (2050)
19:39:09  <andythenorth> looks like edibles tankers, gen 2 reefers
19:39:34  <andythenorth> livestock car needs redrawn for 2 generations, it’s just the brit one
19:40:00  <supermop> andythenorth: my antelope game got to 1904 over the weekend, with much micromanagement, so i have yet to see any gen 2 cars
19:40:08  <andythenorth> yeah, I’m about the same
19:40:11  <Samu> well, i paintshopped a "178" above the sprite, but i bet this is not the right way to do it
19:40:23  <andythenorth> there are many examples of SAR stock here to steal from
19:41:03  <andythenorth> also 2 more generations of hopper, 2 flat car generations
also the gen 2 box car is same as gen 1
19:41:06  <andythenorth> list goes on :)
19:41:29  <andythenorth> they need to be 6/8, 6/8 (but taller / wider), then 8/8 mostly
19:41:45  <supermop> now my NG network is centered on a city that's gone from around 3400 to 12000 in that time and the passenger service is just barely hanging on
19:41:53  <andythenorth> ha
19:42:05  <andythenorth> NG will struggle with that pax
19:42:20  <supermop> alsoo all my primary industry production seems high
19:43:07  <supermop> stuggle to fit enough 6 tile, 56kmh freights in on those lines seeing an express passenger leaving the city every 10 days
19:43:07  <andythenorth> maybe metro is needed :P
19:44:08  <supermop> so my freight are now 8 tiles with lots of waiting in sidings and dedicated freight track
19:44:59  <andythenorth> small map?
19:46:12  <supermop> 256^2
19:46:23  <andythenorth> same here
19:46:34  <andythenorth> wondering if 512x512 is better for this economy / trains
19:46:38  <andythenorth> despite the slower speed
19:47:04  <supermop> maybe, with some mechanism for longer pickup intervals?
19:47:35  <andythenorth> I deleted that :P
19:47:52  <supermop> at normal production i have some industries that would really need a 5-6 tile train to leave every month
19:48:03  <glx> Samu: grfcodec doesn't care about the numbering ;)
19:48:07  <andythenorth> I am over-supplying trains and using escape depots
19:48:15  <andythenorth> like a boss :P
19:48:21  * andythenorth normally wouldn’t bother
19:48:51  <Samu> png must be 8-bit, suddenly it became 32-bit grr
19:48:53  <supermop> which means can't really have long pretty single track lines or few freights that run in gaps between passengers on the main line
19:49:05  <Samu> i don't have the right program to edit images, I'm using Windows paint
19:49:30  <glx> at least try gimp
19:49:39  <glx> or any other real tool ;)
19:49:59  <Samu> shouldn't have uninstalled it
19:50:30  <andythenorth> also...bedtime
19:50:31  <andythenorth> bye :)
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21:48:31  <supermop> yen in game seems to be 3 orders of magnitude inflated relative to GBP, seems like it should be 2
21:49:12  <supermop> cant recall anytime in my memory where you'd 1000 yen per quid
21:50:19  <supermop> craziest i can think of is maybe 300 per dollar like 10+ years before i was born, but at that time a pound wasn't 3 dollars
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22:03:07  <Rubidium> did you actually change the currencies and do the math?
22:03:32  <Rubidium> I would be amazed if it weren't a factor 220
22:04:45  <supermop> nope i just notice that this trawler costs 3,000 quid and i normally pay about 2,000,000 yen for it
22:05:04  <Samu> - still without the dice
22:05:13  <supermop> can i change currency in a running game?.
22:05:39  <Samu> is the AI config gui window  better organized and easy to undestand yet?
22:05:48  <Samu> understand*
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22:29:01  <Samu> i guess everyone's busy
22:29:16  <supermop> i am technically at work
22:30:23  <Samu> was looking for feedback about that window, if there's confusion yet, i guess there might be
22:30:36  <Samu> i'm trying to make it as simple as I can
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22:31:04  <supermop> to me the ! is still not intuitive
22:31:50  <Samu> I see, I'm also not quite happy about it
22:32:30  <Samu> warning - human company here
22:32:49  <Samu> but I was trying to avoid writing Human Company in the name of the script
22:33:33  <supermop> to me ! means broken or conflicting, as that is what that symbol mean in newgrf list
22:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause> let me tell you that "the hydrochloric acid spillt over" is a bug report you don't want to get.
22:34:28  <supermop> and a player may select an ai similar to how they select a newgrf
22:34:47  <supermop> so i see the ! and think, why is my AI broken
22:35:03  <supermop> how do firs steel mills work?
22:35:11  <Samu> broken AI is a red square
22:35:33  <supermop> but ! says broken more than red
22:35:56  <supermop> i would say use a human image?
22:36:00  <Samu> green is a living AI, active and not dead( at least yet )
22:36:44  <supermop> if i deliver scrap, coal, and ore simultaneously every month, do i get 8t per 8t of each?
22:37:06  <Samu> ok, will try to find a human image somewhere
22:37:23  <supermop> or just some % more?
22:37:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the ratios add up to 8/8
22:38:14  <Eddi|zuHause> (it's still multiplied by your station rating at the end)
22:38:54  <supermop> if i deliver 8t coal, 8t ore, and 8t scrap on the same train, the mill makes 24t steel?
22:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:39:31  <supermop> i never knew this for sure because the window just says "steps up"
22:39:51  <Samu> ok, will make it more familiar to NewGRF, but I barely configure NewGRFs
22:39:58  <Samu> not too experienced
22:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> don't tell andy. he'll shuffle around the texts again and will never be satisfied by the result
22:40:20  <Samu> dead AI = warning sing
22:40:26  <supermop> or shuffle it to make it even more mysterious?
22:40:32  <Samu> human company = find a human face somewhere
22:40:48  <Samu> alive AI = green square
22:41:22  <Samu> AI that will start soon = orange square in-game, blue square in main menu?
22:41:41  <Samu> AI that can't start due to max no competitors = grey square ?
22:47:20  <Wolf01> 'night
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